This article is in the current issue of Socialist Outlook. It looks at how Marxists should participate in a broader formation like Respect and offers some suggestions for an action programme.

A reply to this post from a supporter of Permanent Revolution can be found here.

David Packer looks at the recent events in Respect and at the role of revolutionaries

Respect Renewal was established in November last year with a remarkably successful conference, called because of a deepening split in the old Respect. It was made up of those comrades who rejected the political control and organizational methods of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP).
[1] The RR Conference was a lively and highly political affair involving over 350 comrades, from many parts of the country – and organized with only two weeks notice. Most importantly, it was an open and democratic event. There was a palpable enthusiasm, due to a widespread recognition that for the first time there was the possibility of building Respect by broadening its political base of support inside the working class and social movements. Despite sectarian mudslinging in the blogosphere, this successful event showed that the leadership wizards of the SWP did not succeed in turning gold into lead.

Despite the negative consequences of any split – the working class tends to have a healthy instinct for unity – Respect Renewal can now campaign openly and for the first time seriously for the unity of the left; those comrades from the existing currents and individuals who stand clearly to the left of New Labour, into a broader militant socialist party based on working class struggles and interests. In this new century of imperialist wars, catastrophic global warming, neo-liberalism and now a looming financial crisis, with all its consequences for working people, a new left party must be built that can act as an alternative leadership and pole of attraction for the working class and its potential allies.

We believe the proposed founding conference of Respect Renewal, planned in 2008, should centrally address the pressing need for ‘unity of the left’ – it should be its raison d’etre – an appeal for a new party that must be based on workers’ resistance, the militant forces driving the anti-war movement, the hard left of New Labour, who have no future in that party, those left forces organised in the trade unions, and unity with the most radical youth of the anti-globalisation and environmental movements. Respect Renewal must also be the true mouthpiece of the most oppressed and socially excluded and build bridges between communities and working class organisations. Forging this unity will be difficult but is an essential objective for any would-be new party of the left in Britain.

Nor can a unity drive at this time be based on leftist ultimatums and posturing as sectarian currents might demand. To argue, in a non-revolutionary period in Britain, for the adoption by RR of a revolutionary programme would condemn the Marxist left to irrelevance. Nor is the programme we need today a minimum reformist one, but a limited anti-capitalist action programme. It should be against capitalist war; neo-liberalism; global warming and environmental degradation and for solutions that point in the direction of socialism. But this programme, despite its limits, should include policies that go beyond mere reforms and parliamentary elections. It should include demands that challenge the capitalist system and promote the mobilisation and self-activity of the broadest number of people. Therefore in a restricted sense it will be an anti-capitalist and class struggle platform: what Leon Trotsky described as an‘action programme’. (See box for an example of this kind of programme today.)

Such a party must also be pluralistic, democratic and transparent, with leading bodies and representatives accountable to the membership. Unfortunately, in the old Respect, the SWP did not implement this kind of democracy, preferring to keep it as an‘alliance’ (a so-called ‘united front of a special kind’), which they could manipulate and control. The real leadership of the old Respect was not the elected National Council, but the SWP Central Committee that stood behind it.

Socialist democracy will be an essential component of any successful new left party. This must include the guaranteed rights of all minorities who support the aims of such a party. Without democracy and accountability any new party of the left will go the way of the old SWP-dominated Respect. Furthermore, the arrogance and anti-democratic practices of many left groups have repelled of a lot of good militants, who correctly draw the conclusion that they would not want to live in a ‘socialist society’ dominated by the culture that exists in such organisations.
A unity drive for a new broad-left, democratic party is in our view vital to any socialist advance in British politics today. If we can succeed in building such a party, based on the mass movement, it would represent a significant step forward for the working class in Britain.
[2]

The role of revolutionaries

To the question, ‘Do Marxists still need revolutionary organization?’ we answer in the affirmative. Building Respect Renewal in today’s conditions will inevitably leave open the question, ‘what road to socialism?’ or what kind of strategy and programme will be required for a socialist transformation of society. This is because RR or any genuinely broad pluralist party today, can – as argued above – only be based on a limited programme. Future big events and struggles, on a scale that we have not seen in Europe since the sixties and seventies, with one or two exceptions such as the British Miners Strike and the recent French student occupations and strike movements, will inevitably pose new questions and demand radical answers from any party of the left. In order to engage in these debates and struggles – and others of less importance – revolutionary Marxists, who are today a small minority, must remain organised as a part of the broader plurality. Nonetheless, revolutionaries within RR, or those who wish to associate themselves with building RR, must abandon the ‘sectarian propagandism’ and left posturing, such as fighting for the adoption of their full programme at every opportunity irrespective of the actual conditions in the class struggle, which has tragically been so characteristic of the small, far-left ghetto.
Nonetheless, and despite important agreements on many issues within RR and among a broad spectrum of the left, Marxists will inevitably be engaged in many controversies. While rejecting the sectarian and undemocratic practices of the type carried out by the SWP in the old Respect
[3] the revolutionary currents will need higher levels of collective discussion. To do this we must remain an organized platform. History has shown us, including the recent experience of Rifondazione in Italy and the Brazilian Workers Party, the difficulties faced by such parties. To suggest that they can simply evolve to the left under the influence of the class struggle, or be transformed into revolutionary parties, would make us hostages to fortune.

The reasons for maintaining revolutionary organisation are clear. A broad pluralist party and a revolutionary Marxist current are constructed on differing political bases. The former contains many strategies and programmes (pluralism), and in today’s conditions can only be united on a limited anti-capitalist programme; in contrast revolutionary groups, which may contain many important differences over secondary issues or tactics (with the right of tendency), are united behind a revolutionary Marxist programme.

While revolutionaries can legitimately engage in complex political processes, such as constructing a broad party in unity with diverse currents that adhere to a multiplicity of programmes and strategies, and this is the character of RR today, we also need to reaffirm our objectives of building a revolutionary party. We must re-educate ourselves on the relationships between the revolutionary programme, organisation and the broad party that must be built today.


The crisis of the old Respect has also provided an important opportunity for strengthening the revolutionary current through a regroupment. The split in Respect has been accompanied by the departure from the SWP of several dozen experienced comrades, many of whom were long-standing members and who remain both committed to building a broad party like RR while still retaining their revolutionary ideas and perspectives. More are likely to leave in the future. We think they should organise themselves in order to maximise this process and to develop their critique of the false methods of the SWP. The best outcome of this process would be a regroupment of the existing revolutionary currents within Respect Renewal with the ex-members of the SWP and the creation of a new or refounded tendency within Respect Renewal, which we believe should be affiliated to the Fourth International. The strengthening of a new revolutionary tendency should go hand in hand with forging a broad pluralist party.
Some parts of the left have thrown a spotlight on the role of organisations that call themselves ‘democratic centralist’ or ‘Leninist’, mainly because of the role and practices of the SWP in the old Respect, which are a caricature of this important concept. The revolutionary socialist wing of RR should show in practice, as we have in the past, that we reject sectarian methods, which in any case have little to do with Lenin or his theories of organisation. We will continue to work in a non-sectarian and collaborative way, applying the method of the united front, which requires transparency. Accordingly we will make our discussions and deliberations, including the positions of minority currents, available to others in the broader movement, in the tradition of the Ligue Communiste Revolutionnaire, French Section of the Fourth international.

The Political Basis of a left ‘Unity Party’ – A draft action programme for discussion.

At the November conference it was proposed that we re-discuss our programme at the founding conference of Respect Renewal in the spring of 2008. It needs updating especially to re-emphasise ecosocialism.

This programme should be part of any discussion with other forces Respect Renewal hopes to unite with. We should initiate a debate explaining why left unity it is necessary, what we understand by the term and the political basis for it. We should be pro-active in arguing publicly that Gordon Brown’s refusal to break in any way from New labour’s capitalist policies shows that the time is now ripe for the various currents on the left who want to fight neo-liberalism, war and environmental catastrophe, to form a new left party.

Components of an action programme today

Respect Renewal is a campaigning, eco-socialist organisation and supports an electoral strategy that will provide us with the platform that allows our elected representatives to publicly campaign for, and where possible implement, aspects of our programme, but not to use their position to administer the logic of capitalism either nationally or locally.

  1. Against War and Imperialism:

· For the complete and immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan

· No to war on Iran

· Against all imperialist interventions, or to NATO encirclement of Russia and China

· End all threats to Cuba and Venezuela

· No to the arms trade

· No to nuclear weapons, No to Trident – for British unilateral nuclear disarmament

· Support for the campaigns against US interceptor missile bases in Britain and Europe.

  1. Environment and global warming:
    • Campaign for a realistic target, based on the latest science, for unilateral carbon reduction in Britain of 90% by 2030
    • For radical new international treaties for global carbon reduction
    • For equitable, non-market solutions and against a strategy such as the Stern Report determined by profitability, or those which make the workers pay
    • All reduction to be implemented without carbon trading or strategies of green taxation
    • Campaign for a massive shift from carbon fuels to sustainable energy production – a shift to non-carbon ambient energy – solar, wind and water electric power generation.
    • For the immediate re-nationalisation of the energy industry, including the national grid
    • No to nuclear energy
    • For car-free inner cities and an expansion of cheap or free public transport. We encourage the transfer to sustainable modes of transport and adequate rural bus services. For an integrated transport system under public ownership
    • For the expansion of the rail and coach networks
    • No to privatisation of the tube – bring all public transport back into public ownership
    • Freeze all airport expansion including the fourth runway at Heathrow
    • Equitable restriction/rationing of international air flights
    • For the abolition of all internal flights
    • For public funding and re-establishing direct-works departments in local government as part of a massive subsidised campaign of insulating the old housing stock
    • For a programme of sustainable and affordable social housing – all new houses to be carbon neutral
    • For the protection of biodiversity, green and open space, and the countryside against rampant development
    • Reduction of the working week and redeployment of workers as environmentally destructive industries are closed down
    • For working class and socialist solution to the eco-crisis
  1. Defend Social services and Welfare rights
    • For an end to all privatisation in the public sector. No to a privatised East London line
    • No to creeping privatisation or the market inside the NHS
    • For a massive public investment in the NHS and education
    • No to school academies
    • Tax the super-rich and big business to increase funding for public services
    • For the nationalisation of the utilities
    • For a return to a publicly funded student grant scheme
    • No attacks on pension funds and for a living state pension with no means testing
  1. For Social and democratic rights
    • For a decent minimum wage of at least £8 an hour
    • For trade union freedom – repeal anti-union laws
    • Defence of civil liberties: no deportations, no to ID cards, rights for asylum seekers
    • Against racism, Islamophobia, sexism, homophobia and all forms of discrimination.
    • For mass action against manifestations of racism and fascism
    • For equal rights for women and the oppressed
    • For a woman’s right to choose whether, when and how to have children.
    • For a system of proportional representation in all elections and against any prohibitive thresholds to disqualify small parties from standing


[1] For the best account of this tragic unravelling of the old Respect see
the Socialist Resistance booklet containing some of the key documents.

[2] A unity platform is presented below for discussion.

[3] These practices included presenting themselves like a military ‘phalanx’ on almost every issue, tedious and inappropriate attempts to pack important meetings, inventing delegations to conferences, etc.

45 responses to “Respect Renewal and the role of revolutionaries”

  1. We are not the SWP is the message that appears to be displayed in the article, that is, for democracy, openess etc. However, “To argue, in a non-revolutionary period in Britain, for the adoption by RR of a revolutionary programme would condemn the Marxist left to irrelevance,” this was exactly the same arguement that was put by the SWP when for example open borders, amoung a number of issues, that were put to the Rees voting fodder. The message being the working class are not ready, and do not understand the issues. I understand the arguement from Socialist Resistance comrades because Alan T has said it before.

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  2. It’s not about not supporting open boarders etc., because “the working class won’t understand it”. It’s about political demands that correspond to current conditions of the class struggle, so the argument is more about not demanding that RR be committed to soviets, workers’ militia etc. etc. which is rather different from “no immigration controls”.

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  3. Is it in the Statutes of the Fourth International that all political statements by sections should read as if translated from French?

    (That the statement should have effect of making the reader lose the will to live is, I understand, only a rule of the British section.)

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  4. I think it’s great that you’re trying to build a socialist tendency in RR but unless the tendency acknowledges how the pull of electoralism on Galloway and his faction contributed to the split then history is likely to repeat itself, albeit not in the same way.

    I agree with many of the arguements you make especially not adopting a revolutionary programme at this moment in time. I’m sure socialists in RR and Respect will find much in common to work towards over the coming months.

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  5. I’m afraid this piece does seem to make a virtue of incoherence. Take this section;
    “To argue, in a non-revolutionary period in Britain, for the adoption by RR of a revolutionary programme would condemn the Marxist left to irrelevance. Nor is the programme we need today a minimum reformist one, but a limited anti-capitalist action programme. It should be against capitalist war; neo-liberalism; global warming and environmental degradation and for solutions that point in the direction of socialism.”

    What does it actually mean?
    It doesn’t want a revolutionary programme, i.e. a socialist and working class one. So it must want a non-revolutionary bourgeois reformist one (we do live in class society remember).
    But then again it doesn’t want a reformist programme i.e. bourgeois either.
    It wants to point in the direction of socialism.
    Yet makes a principle of not mentioning socialism anywhere.
    If you’re going on a journey, is it not reasonable to tell the driver where you are going? Unless you think being stuck in a traffic jam is the purpose of travel.

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  6. RR and Respect aren’t revolutionary organisations they’re reformist alliances. It’s important to understand this bill j otherwise you’ll be forever demanding that they stand on a revolutionary platform and you’ll be always disappointed because this will (probably) never happen.

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  7. Bill, i think the point is that what is needed at the moment is for the labour movement to break from new labour. What is needed in England is a unified & pluralist workers’ party, in which Marxists can contribute and make our case.

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  8. Bill, I think the issue you have is that, for you, the only working-class demands are those which are revolutionary. That is ‘maximalism’, and will place you in a sectarian position towards demands which reflect the interests of working people, such as the demands for jobs, for better healthcare and for peace, which are not calls for revolution.

    This issue is this: David Packer is arguing for an action programme which corresponds to the demands of the day. It’s certainly not perfect and, personally, I think the more transitional demands need to the developed. However, it’s clear that these are demands which reflect objective interests of working work.

    The complication for the Workers’ Power tradition is that a strong thread of pre-1917 ‘up and out’-ism runs through through, encouraging the propagandist use of ultimatums as a way to get WP and PR comrades to exclude themselves from political coalitions.

    It’s really quite unfortunate, and I just can’t see how the PR comrades can easily get back to the threshold of a real breakthrough on the united front which the group approached in its work on the anti-imperialist united front, and then got reflected from.

    In the short-term, you will already have seen that asking non-revolutionaries to adopt revolutionary conclusions that they have not consciously reached is simply futile, and locks you into an ultra-left stance. But, as always, it comes back to the question of how consiousness develops. An ounce of action is worth a pound of propaganda, and the experience of coming into action and developing the will to have more power is exactly what both sides in Respect have aspired to do.

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  9. I didn’t think there is enough attacks on the SWP i this article. I mean why not hold them responsible for all the failures of Respect and global warming, racism, poverty etc.
    Basically its a plea to ovenden and hoveman to join there organisation. Funnily enough those 2 have ditched revolutionary socialism perhaps u hadn’t noticed… they work for GG and he who pays the piper etc.
    The real question is the ISG ducked the arguement over Livingstone.. it has no weight to even attempt to keep GG in check. So all the rhetoric in the world means nothing if u are prepared to not argue over KL and not even put an article in your (sic) paper.

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  10. jj- raise your game or troll elsewhere.

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  11. “he who pays the piper etc.”

    By your logic, we cannot trust the politics of anyone who works for the SWP – they can’t possibly be independent thinkers, cos he who pays the piper etc.

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  12. Tony

    By your logic, we cannot trust the politics of anyone who works for the SWP – they can’t possibly be independent thinkers, cos he who pays the piper etc.

    That is my experience, yes.

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  13. Chris says that my position amounts to the assertion that;

    “Bill, I think the issue you have is that, for you, the only working-class demands are those which are revolutionary.”

    I prefer to put it the other way round, the only consistent fighters for working class demands are revolutionaries. Obviously working class demands encompass any demand demanded by the working class. That could be sleeping policemen on a busy road, a pay rise, or a global solution to climate change.
    Certainly some of these demands, at the smaller end, may be met within capitalism, that is not a reason for a revolutionary not to fight for them, but what a revolutionary should do is show how the failure in general and specifically too to meet the needs of the working class is located in capitalism. And that in order to meet the needs of the working class in full, we need to get rid of capitalism and have socialism.
    Unfortunately the starting point of this article is that you can’t mention socialism, even though it thinks you need it. Paradoxically it implies that by not mentioning socialism, you are actually struggling for it., when in fact you are doing the opposite, you are struggling against it. As is demonstrated by the fact that every time someone mentions on here that they think our platform should include socialism, they are accused of “maximalism”, or wanting a “workers militia” or an “insurrection.”
    Engels dryly commented once, (paraphrase) people say to me do you want an insurrection now? and of course I answer yes! Its just there’s a few preparatory steps we need to take first.
    I think that’s a very good way of putting it.
    I can’t speak for Workers Power, I never see them and don’t know what they do, but as for PR we are not excluded from any political coalitions I can think of, except Respect. The wisdom of which I am convinced more of every day.

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  14. I guess this is the kind of programme that ultra-lefts write when they emerge blinking into the sun. You call it an action programme but it is more of an autistic programme.

    A few points:

    In the section on War and Imperialism, not a squeak about the murderous siege of Gaza. Is the ISG part of the Stalinist plot to keep quiet about what is going on down there until the Zionists have eliminated the entire Hamas leadership and restored the PLO to the `sole, legitimate leadership of the Palestinian people’ (the ones that are left anyway)?

    Come on! GG is considered by many Palestinians to be their MP, their voice in the imperialist heartland. The siege of Gaza should be point 1 on your list.

    In the section on the Environment you talk about `realistic’ targets. The time has long passed for those. Ordinary bourgeois politicians talk about `realistic’ targets. It is time to go for necessary targets.

    But throughout the programme there is no sign of a single call for working class self-organisation. Not a single transitional demand posing the question of power. RR, if it isn’t to become just another layer of political policemen standing between the working class and revolution has to be the unrivalled champion of working class and community self-organisation.

    Also, this programme is not even remotely geared to the particular circumstances of London and therefore unsuitable for the GLA elections. It needs adapting.

    Even where you talk about an £8/hour minimum wage it comes across as pure demagoguery. Why not £80 or £800? There is a campaign in London which has had some success called the Campaign For A Living Wage. They have managed to get the wages of cleaners and security guards in a university raised from the minimum to the living wage. Shouldn’t you talk to them before plucking figures out of the air?

    No mention of amnesty for illegal immigrant workers. No mention of controlling the developers and the landlords. No mention of the powerlessness of the GLA. No demands for primary legislative powers and the return of local democracy so that whoever (including Respect councillors if they ever won a majority) is elected has to carry out central government dictated cuts. There has been massive investment in the NHS and Education over the last ten years of this government to little avail. We need workers and community control of these facilities if they are not to remain useless money pits ciphering money to the private sector. All this kind of stuff. RR’s programme needs to be dynamic, transitional, revolutionary not stilted and boring like this one.

    Read the Transitional Programme again. See if it can’t inspire you.

    Oh, and what are `equal rights for women and the oppressed’. How lazy is that. How is equality to be realised? How does the working mother get a fair shake in the workplace? Through simple equality? In this section of the programme you seem most interested in the liberal notion of proportional representation than anything else.

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  15. I would not want to put forward the SSP as a model but I think that Murry Smith hit the right formulation (though we can debate whether he actually turned it into practice) back in 2003 when, in a debate with Rees, he described the role of Revolutionaries today as follows;

    ‘I am convinced that the role of revolutionary Marxists today is to build broad socialist parties while defending their own Marxist positions within them, with the aim, not of building a revolutionary faction with an ‘entrist’ perspective, but of taking forward the whole party and solving together with the whole party the problems that arise, as they arise.’(ISJ, Issue 100, Autumn 2003)

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  16. Joseph, I’ve also believed that that’s the right formulation for quite a while now. The need for a party in its own right should be dictated by the objective circumstances, not by a simple mantra of “marxists must have their own party”.

    I can see nothing more brilliant, inspiring, challenging and scary than marxists organising inside a broad left formation as the main task, until circumstances move on.

    Of course, we need to be associated and organised, but only because it makes the work of marxists inside Respect much easier. But building Respect (and its successor organisations) must be the motive, not using Respect to build another organisation.

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  17. Joseph / Tony, the experience of Rifondazione in particular shows that even a party which helped mobilise tens of thousands of workers at Genoa can quickly move to the right. One of the principal things that permitted something positive to emerge was the fact that Sinistra Critica organised, met and discussed. Otherwise those who were committed to building a mass class struggle party would have found themselves isolated, demoralised and carried along by the rightward pressure.

    The manner in which Marxists organise does not need to be the Leninist caricature which prevails on the British left. None of us are likely to be sent to Siberia or Dudley anytime soon. But there are some essentials and these include a press to present and think through positions and regular opportunities to discuss with real people in the same room at the same time. There will be times when we will be in a minority and that is a good thing. The debate is part of creating a new organisation.

    Entryism is something you do in an organisation to which you are hostile. My masterplan was to help split off the class struggle wing of the Labour Party. That didn’t quite work out. On the other hand the way Marxists should operate in Respect is to unreservedly build it.

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  18. “‘I am convinced that the role of revolutionary Marxists today is to build broad socialist parties while defending their own Marxist positions within them, with the aim, not of building a revolutionary faction with an ‘entrist’ perspective, but of taking forward the whole party and solving together with the whole party the problems that arise, as they arise.’(ISJ, Issue 100, Autumn 2003)”

    I think this is the wrong way to put it.

    Revolutionaries should seek to build united fronts- unite activists, workers, communities in actions, necessary actions around vital reforms.

    We need to build or rebuild a working class movement.

    And in those united fronts and that movement we should argue for our ideas- for workers controlling society, for the expropriation of capitalists, for the natioanlisation for example of British Gas with no compensation for the big shareholders to be run by the service users and workers.

    As Bill says that doesn’t cut us off from any real audiences. OK we won’t convince a amjority of workers overnight- may be only a tiy fraction. But it is not at all counterposed to winning workers to united acion.

    So socialist parties? Yes- argue for your politics within them and if you lose carry on. E.g. if the RMT or FBU or even sections of them or other workers formed a fighting workers’ party I’d be absolutely for joining.

    Should we say well let;s not be too socialist in case we scare workers? No. Working class people are not children. They may not agree with us but it’s silly and even dishonest to pretend to believe in one thing when you ‘secretly’ believe in another, asnwers to be revealed one day when people are ready.

    People will smell that a mile off.

    Jason

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  19. “But building Respect (and its successor organisations) must be the motive, not using Respect to build another organisation.” tonyc

    I disagree, I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. It’s the role of socialists in an alliance/united front (call it what you will) to help build the organisation and to argue for socialism.
    The only way we can do this is to be at the forefront of building the alliance in order to argue against the pull of reformism. The goal is to attract the best activists to revolutionary politics as we have no illusions in reformism.
    Respect/RR will never bring about socialism but they may help revitalise the left. That’s the aim of the alliance/united front.

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  20. Perhaps but then why don’t you
    1) argue for revolutionary politics inside the alliance not as an ultimatum but by putting your ideas forward?

    By taking key demands of the movement e.g. renationalise British Gas and linking accessible demands that move people tot he idea that society shoiuld be run by us the working class

    2) Join in united front work and discussions around unity in action like the Manchester convention of the left , for example http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1754
    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1907

    That way we can have debates whilst taking part in joint action.

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  21. As an SWP comrade in Respect I do debate revolutionary ideas with those Respect members who believe reformism is preferable. But the Respect project is reformist in nature so it’s unlikely that those people who join Respect are necessarily drawn to revolutionary ideas immediately.
    The concept of Respect was to start from a common rallying point for the left and that is reformism. We don’t have illusions in reformism but many on the left still do.
    Argueing for the nationalisation of all services is one that I support but argueing for this now is like running before we can walk. Now that Northern Rock has been nationalised the debate is much more on the agenda publicly but we are still really starting from the point of defending services from PFI and more privatisation rather than demanding that those services that have been privatised need to be taken back into public ownership right away.

    Having said that, as a socialist, I raise all of the facets of public/private ownership in the discussions I’ve had with people who are interested in Respect so I don’t compartmentalise what I discuss. Some workers are more radicalised than others and the debate extends to much more radical ideas.

    The policies of Respect were not decided by the SWP alone. Believe me, we would’ve liked a much more radical agenda but for the sake of unity we agreed to a compromise. As members of Respect we campaign on the basis of the commonly agreed Respect constitution but as revolutionaries we still argue for revolutionary politics with those in and outside Respect.

    Living in London I’m not sure what’s happening with the Manchester conference. I’d be very surprised if SWP comrades didn’t attend. Perhaps it’ll be a local intervention. We’re renowned for taking up every opportunity to argue our politics! There is the issue of the post-split stand off so perhaps we haven’t been asked to attend. I could be wrong about this though. It does seem that the left in England and Scotland is going through a rather difficult period for solidarity at the moment. No doubt the ruling class are revelling in this and contributing to our difficulties.

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  22. The Manchester convention meeting yesterday was very good- someone from the SWP there, but a new person I think (may be wrong- I was wrong once or twice before)

    ” But the Respect project is reformist in nature so it’s unlikely that those people who join Respect are necessarily drawn to revolutionary ideas immediately.”

    With respect, nice pun that I now notice, this doesn’t really engage with the articles on here,

    I disagree with your counterposition of the approaches. I argue in a comment on my article
    in a debate with Liam about is it possible to raise revolutionary politics on a riany morning petitioning against post office closures:

    “But if you are enthusiastically and diligently putting in the work and raising the argument that post offices like public services need to be socialised or nationalised services run by the community that’s not such a hard argument to win.

    OK if you just leave it at that it would be a bit fluffy- actually to do this we need to get organised, we need to have organisations controlled democratically by the working class, we need to be ready to defend ourselves against attack when it comes and if we grow strong it will come!

    Ulitmately we need to build it up to the point where we can smash and destroy the capitalist state by defeating the armed power of the bourgeois.

    Now may be that discussion would under most circumstances be unlikely on a cold Sunday morning petitioning about post offices. You never know but it’s so far from most people’s experience, so radically disconnected to everyday life that it probably does just sound plain weird. If not completely crackers.

    The point though is not to keep these opinions secret or endlessly deferred until you decide people are ready. But we speak in language people understand and with example people can relate to. That much is obvious, isn’t it?

    No. We say from the off we want a different world where we the ordinary people, the workers, the common people, own our lives and make decisiosn and we’re open about being revolutionaries. We don’t push our politics down your throat but if people say are you having a laugh?

    How can we ever get ordinary people into power when we can’t even stop a post office from closing then we inititiate a conversation.

    May be starting, “You’re right nothing’s ever given without an almighty fight. You got the right instincts on that, mate. But let’s fight in what we can win. Such and such a town or place did win on their post office. And they did it by building a big f.. off meeting and asking the local people what they thought should be done.

    They got the local school children to write letters and then form a human chain round th epost office. ” Or whatever- obviously use real examples not just make it up.

    “And as we build ourselves up and build momentum we take on bigger fights until the state bring the fight to us and then we need to make damn sure we’re ready. That’s why I’m a revolutionary socialist. If you’re interested we’ll talk more.”

    If not fair enough see you next Saturday morning.

    We’re not there to win recruits or win votes for our little party but to be serious and put in the hard work. We’re there to build up a base of strength in the working class so the class can start taking back what is ours.”

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  23. Here we go again. Dave Packer and the ISG think that at last (free of the SWP) Respect Renewal can really campaign for the “Unity of the left”. Nothing like splitting with the biggest force on the left (SWP) to bring such a possibility about. Bit like saying “SSP split – great opportunity for socialists in Scotland”.

    According to Packer it will include the “hard left” of the LP because they have “no future in that party”. Ultimatum or what? Perhaps Dave packer should try talking to the people in the LRC and see whether that is their perspective.

    On programme. It’s a non-revolutionary period, ergo we can’t have a revolutionary programme, that of course would be an “ultimatum”. But we can have an “limited anti capitalist programme”. It should “include policies that go beyond mere reforms and parliamentary elections. It should include demands that challenge the capitalist system and promote the mobilisation and self-activity of the broadest number of people.”

    So we can “challenge” capitalism but not overthrow it – now that does seem a bit limiting, not to say pointless.

    So lets look at the limitations of Packer’s “action programme”. It wants “the nationalisation of all public utilities”. Well Network Rail is a good example, and it what way is that body, working within the capitalist structure, superior? It gets repairs done on time? Is admired by its workers and rail passengers? Pays excellent wages? Since when has public ownership, divorced from workers and consumers control, had anything to do with socialism? The Economist is at least as radical as the ISG, it called for the nationalisation of one of the major banks, Northern Rock. That tells you just how radical this demand is.

    Dave Packer might have “forgotten” but Trotsky’s revolutionary transitional programme, and his action programmes (which merely used the transitional method to draw up programmes directed to specific important junctures in the national class struggle, not a watered down programme as Packer would have us believe) had at their heart the mobilisation of the working class through the fight for workers control, rank and file struggle (strikes, general strikes) and fighting workers organisations (union fractions, rank and file organisations, womens committees, workers councils/soviets). There is not a whiff of “mobilisation or self activity” in Packer’s programme of demands.

    And lets have a look at the ISGs self-limiting programme. “No deportations and rights for asylum seekers”. And what about the free movement of labour across national frontiers? Are you for immigration controls or against them, or don’t you want to say? “For a woman’s right to choose whether, when and how to have children.” Does this mean you are in favour of abortion rights or just good contraception? Is it deliberately vague so as not to alienate the George Galloway’s of this world by not mentioning the “A” word? Or is it deliberately designed so that they can interpret it in this way to the average RR member or anti-abortionist on the street?

    And then we come to the non-sensical. Shetland islanders are not allowed to fly to the mainland because it’s an “internal flight” but international flights are OK. Cities are going to be “car free” – we are to ban electric cars, LPG cars, car co-ops, invalid cars, taxis? And what about vans – how are you going to deliver goods? And you want to close down the nuclear power stations but you don’t mention the coal fired power stations – some programme to combat global warming this is.

    And where do you stand on crime, the prison system, armed policing, asbos, faith schools, housing, ALMOs, house repossessions, debt and a 101 other vital working class issues?

    It’s a shoddy old left reformist programme that Dave obviously wrote on the back of an envelope, on the bus on his way to collect his pension. A piece indeed worthy of Socialist Outlook.

    Like

  24. Stuart

    That’s a trite unfair!
    The bit about dave and his pension.

    Mikey

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  25. I have to confess that generally I agree with the comments of Stuart and Jason and their comrades on the permanent revolution website on this matter.

    The reason being that, Dave and the ISG have adopted the left of the left programme/Socialist Unity type ideology of the USFI in the 1980’s and the 1970’s.

    In France in the 1980’s the LCR supported a left of the left orientation and in the 1970’s here, the IMG argued for Socialist Unity with Big Flame, the SWP and every old left bod off the street who flogged a dead paper. Robin Blackburn and others argued “Let it Bleed” of the Labour party. This was wrong then and is wrong now, but I wonder how long it will be before we see such garbage regurgitated today.

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  26. The age old problem that is being grappled with here is the one that informed the minbd of my former comrade John Archer, who died in 2000 aged 91. he died a supporter of Pierre Lambert who also died recently.

    John spent many years trying to get his head round the question of the role of the Labour Party. John concluded, and I agreed, that the Labour Party “question” is central to thast of working class politics in this country. It is and remains even now, the battleground for the conflict between the bourgeoise and the working class. Whether we think this is good or bad it has been the central issue from the 1900’s to 2008.

    In the 1930’s the then Militant group led by John and others tried to work through these questions afetr leaving the ILP. The ILP was far more successful and much larger than RR or Repsect. They didn’t get 1 million on an anti war demo but things were different then.

    The IMG and later the ISG seemed to try and grapple with some of these questions: the role of the LP in bourgois society, but mainly, the question of the LP in the life of the workers movement. The LP was far more important and influential than Respect or RR could ever be.

    During this period they made a turn to the LP and Dave and others seemed to actually really think about the centrality of the LP question.

    Now thought hat has all changed and those comrades now see the LP as a bourgeois party. You may as well argue let it bleed and adopt a Blackburnesque line! Even tariq dumped that line in the end, only for Dave and the ISG to readopt it.

    More later

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  27. Mike,

    Just one comment: you talk about the ongoing discussion in the IMG and ISG, but you describe this way – when people are in the Labour party they are thinking and when they are out of the Labour party they are not thinking. That comes across as your saying that when people agree with you they are smart and when they do not agree with you they are stupid. That’s just not a way to convince people.

    it’s also pretty shoddy thinking. Blackburn’s line was not the IMG’s. ‘Let it bleed’ has his personal position, that Labour was a simple bourgeois party, and the press carried an article by the IMG’s national secretary that countered that view.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group#Red_Mole

    The IMG had a real internal life, and members held evolving views, but its stance towards the Labour party. However, there was broad continuity: using elections to make propaganda rather than maximising the Labour vote, and by calling for a workers’ government based on the unions in order to encourage the unions to act politically. At no point, for example, did the IMG rule out the possibility of a mass influx into Labour, even in 1972 when it seems quite unlikely.

    It seems to me that it would be useful for you to debate the real positions that people actually, hold, rather than other positions. It really is not the case that every Marxist in the labour party has one ‘correct’ line and the others have one ‘incorrect’ line.

    Chris.

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  28. Just a ps on Dave’s shoddy old programme. Apparently he and the ISG are fighting against a “Fourth Runway” at Heathrow.

    Won’t this piece of ‘leftist ultimatumism” isolate the ISG from the real campaign against the Third Runway? I think these slogans are just too advanced for the real movement. They should put aside their campaigns against the Fourth Runway and start from where the rest of us are at.

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  29. Stuart – I don’t want to get anyone in trouble but I’m in the same union branch as two of your comrades. Off the top of my head I can’t remember the last time we didn’t vote the same way on anything, we second and support each other’s motions and frequently find ourselves in disagreement with the branch leadership. I spent a big chunk of yesterday in a meeting with one of your comrades and one of your former comrades. Our views on most things were indistinguishable.

    It may be that PR supporters dissolve into gutless reformists in these situations or it may be that in the real world a lot of these polemical issues don’t really mean that much.

    As for the 4th runway – Trotsky said “to lead is to foresee”. Dave is trying to stay ahead of the game. Admirable really.

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  30. There’s a ‘Fifth International’ joke in there somewhere.

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  31. “Stuart – I don’t want to get anyone in trouble but I’m in the same union branch as two of your comrades. Off the top of my head I can’t remember the last time we didn’t vote the same way on anything, we second and support each other’s motions and frequently find ourselves in disagreement with the branch leadership. I spent a big chunk of yesterday in a meeting with one of your comrades and one of your former comrades. Our views on most things were indistinguishable.

    It may be that PR supporters dissolve into gutless reformists in these situations or it may be that in the real world a lot of these polemical issues don’t really mean that much.”

    Now, now Liam. Surely the point is that revolutionaries will of course vote for action to demand and force reforms.

    I’m not sure what your point is but it seems to me you misunderstand what we are arguing. We say fight for every reform that to make working class living conditions, services, work etc, better and propose and organise action to win these.

    So far, so good. In addition, we are saying link this practical work with arguemnts for socialism, for workers’ revolution, in particular by emphasising transitional demands- demands that cannot be met in full or permanently under capitalism such as public services under workers’ and consumers’ control.

    This demand if met- and capitalism perhaps would try to meet it if forced at the barrel of a gun, to avert a revolution- would make capitalism extremely unstable opening up dual power.

    But nevertheless it would be most susrprising if PR members did not in most union and other cmapaign work vote the way you do, against the union leadersships (which in your case seems to be against the branch leadership)

    “As for the 4th runway – Trotsky said “to lead is to foresee”. Dave is trying to stay ahead of the game. Admirable really.”

    I assume here, though, Stuart’s being wry. If to lead is to foresee why then keep silent on the need for transitional demands and revolutionary socialism.

    At least that’s the way I read it.

    Jason

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  32. If indeed that was Stuart writing about the fourth runway. In blog land anyone can post under any name they like.
    But doesn’t Liam’s point basically rebound on him – I don’t doubt what he says is true – demonstrating surely that being a militant trade unionist is not incompatible with revolutionary socialism – or indeed any sort of socialism – as Dave Packer suggests?

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  33. Chris,

    That is not what I said at all.

    I do hold the view that any body that cannot see reality is living with a blindfold on their eyes.

    The ILP had several MP’s and almost 100,000 members: have RR or Respect ever got close to that?
    When RR becomes a real mini mass party with a small degree of elan then let me know!!

    Mike

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  34. Wikipedia says the following about the ILP:

    “At the 1922 general election several ILP members became MPs (including future ILP leader Jimmy Maxton) and the party grew in stature. The ILP provided many of the new Labour MPs, including John Wheatley, Emanuel Shinwell, Tom Johnston and David Kirkwood. However, the first Labour government (returned to office in 1924) proved to be hugely disappointing to the ILP. Their response was to devise their own programme for government but the Labour Party leadership rejected this.

    For the duration of the second Labour government (1929-31) 37 Labour MPs were sponsored by the ILP and they provided the left opposition to the Labour leadership. The 1930 ILP conference decided that where their policies diverged from the Labour Party their MPs should break the whip to support the ILP policy.

    It was becoming clearer that the ILP was diverging further away from the Labour Party and at the 1931 ILP Scottish Conference the issue of whether the party should still affiliate to Labour was discussed. It was decided to continue to do so, but only after Maxton himself intervened in the debate to speak up to continue to do so.

    At the 1931 general election the ILP candidates refused to accept the standing orders of the parliamentary Labour Party, resulting in them standing without official Labour Party support. Five ILP members were returned to Westminster and created an ILP group outside the Labour Party. In 1932 the ILP held a special conference and voted to disaffiliate from Labour. The same year, it co-founded the “London Bureau” of left-socialist parties (later called the International Revolutionary Marxist Centre).

    The Labour left-winger Aneurin Bevan described the ILP’s disaffiliation as a decision to remain “pure, but impotent”, and in the long run his criticism was arguably vindicated, as once outside of the Labour Party structure the ILP’s political influence went into decline. Some members of the ILP who chose to remain within the Labour Party were to be instrumental in creating the Socialist League.

    In the 1930s the party suffered a massive decline in membership owing to the decision to disaffiliate from Labour, but they remained active. Moving to the left as a result of pressure from the more active layers of the membership in the Depression they also recruited many young people and workers as a result. But while winning new members they also lost members to the right, to the Labour Party, and to their left to the Communist Party and to the Trotskyists as well as losing a breakaway in the north west the Independent Socialist Party in 1934.

    They were particularly active in supporting the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War, and around twenty-five members and sympathizers (including George Orwell) actually went to Spain to assist the POUM as part of an ILP Contingent of volunteers. (The POUM was the ILP’s sister party in the “Three-and-a-Half International” of democratic socialist parties, which the ILP administered and Fenner Brockway chaired for most if its existnce in the 1930s.)

    From the mid-1930s onwards the ILP also attracted the attention of the Trotskyist movement with various Trotskyist groups working within it, such as the Marxist Group of which CLR James, Denzil Dean Harber and Ted Grant were members. This was in addition to the presence within the party of a group of members sympathetic to the CPGB, the Revolutionary Policy Committee, who eventually left to join that party.

    WWII and beyond
    As in 1914 the ILP opposed World War II on ethical grounds and turned to the left. One aspect of its leftist policies in this period was that it opposed the war-time truce between the major parties and actively contested Parliamentary elections. In one such by-election in Cardiff, this was with the result that Fenner Brockway, the ILP candidate, found himself opposed by a Conservative candidate for whom the local Communist Party actively campaigned.

    The end of war can be said to mark the final descent of the ILP into the political wilderness, as its conference rejected calls to reaffiliate to the Labour Party. A major blow came in 1946 when the party’s best known public spokesman, James Maxton MP, died. Although the ILP narrowly held his seat in the Glasgow Bridgeton by-election, 1946, all their MPs had defected to Labour by 1948, and the party was roundly defeated at the Glasgow Camlachie by-election, 1948, in a seat they had won easily only three years earlier. The party was never again able to take a significant vote in a Parliamentary election.

    Despite these blows, the ILP continued and throughout the 1950s and into the early 1960s pioneered opposition to the nuclear bomb and sought to publicise ideas such as workers’ control. The small party also maintained links with the remnants of its fraternal groups, such as the POUM, who were in exile, as well as campaigning for de-colonisation.

    In the 1970s the ILP reassessed its views on the Labour Party, and in 1975 they renamed themselves Independent Labour Publications and became a pressure group inside the mainstream Labour Party.”

    So, from the above, it is plain to see that the ILP was much larger than anyhting that has come beforee or after.
    Even then, in spite of that, the ILP in effect could not replace Labour and it was much sounder placed than any other organisation.

    Mike

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  35. Mike,

    I’m not sure what you think you meant. All I can say is that, in my perception, bringing into an argument a line like ‘those who cannot see reality have a blindfold over their eyes’ is highly ineffective. The problem we have here is based on different perceptions, and different estimations. The solution is to discuss and to test. By suggesting that people who don’t agree with you are ‘not thinking’ or ‘blindfolded’, you don’t assume that other activists have equal powers of understanding, and that discussion with them is fruitless.

    I have to say that Britain today is not Britain of 1922. The comparison with the ILP is, to me, bewildering.

    I wonder if a difference between us is the notion of social agency. I think working people come to radical conclusions in many ways, and that the Labour party is no longer the principal pressure value through which working people’s discontent, having first emerged economically, flows into politics. That is schematic and anachronistic.

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  36. Chris

    It is true that I perhaps overblew the hyperbole.
    What I meant is that I do not think that people outside the LP are stupid. I think that history–especially that of the ILP–shows that there is NO space to the left of Labour, except for an odd individual like Galloway or Canavan.

    It is my view and maybe I am wrong, however, that the LP is the vehicle where the class forces battle it out. Yes this also happens in the trade unions and between the trade unions and the employers, but the LP is in my mind the main vehicle where this process occurs.

    It always will be .

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  37. Hi Mike,

    If the LP were the place where the class struggle happens, then how can you explain the last decade? The LP was not the main vehicle for the major struggles, especially the fight against the war.

    The ‘open value’ between the unions and the Labour party reflected a social relationship which has long disappeared: the vanguard has a different relationship to the unions; the unions tops have a different relationship towards the social struggles; the Labour bosses have a different relationship with the unions. That old balance of forces is totally over.

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  38. Personally I’m not sure I even see the point of this discussion. I think the most important thing is where you say something, or the organisational form in which you deliver it, but what you say, i.e. politics come before organisation.
    With all of these broad party short cuts you get the opposite, organisation before politics.
    In my view, given the failure of the various regroupment initiatives over the last decade, including Respect, which is still hanging on, but for how long remains to be seen, I think we need to refocus on what we say. Consider how we can work together on the basis of that, and if out of that process an organisation can be formed (maybe within and without the Labour Party) then so be it.

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  39. Important typo;
    It should be NOT where you say something or the organisational form…etc.
    (No doubt my subconscious playing with me…)

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  40. Bill,

    Seriously — ‘politics come before organisation’? I looked up Idealism in my illustrated dictionary, and there was a picture of you.

    😉

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  41. There you go. I remember seeing a photo of Bill in the South Manchester Messenger or something a few years ago with the caption Upset. Now I see it with Idealist.

    I suppose it could be Upset Idealist.

    But in all seriousness Bill is saying that the message can be debated, discussed, engage different audiences in different places, organisations, parties, campaigns.

    But what’s important is what we say and do- the politics. On Organisation we can be more felexible.

    I;ve written a reply to Ger Francis piece here
    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1983

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  42. But Jason,

    The LRCI tradition links them: it’s like a Trotskyist concept of Original Sin. If, from the beginning, an political campaign does not have The Correct Programme, then the norm was to get up and out after the defeat of the resolution proposing The Corect Programme. There’s no notion there of the primacy of material experience over ideas…

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  43. You may have been away Chris, so perhaps you don’t know, PR are not in that tradition. We got expelled from it about 18 months ago.

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  44. Jason, it was interesting to read your criticisms of Ger’s article.

    We are going through a further period in which the debate about social democracy and marxism are being called into question. It reminds me of when the Eurocoms abandoned the CP and distorted Gramsci’s writings to justify abandoning class politics.

    The position Ger offers is a direct descendent of this line of thinking and we’ve been here before when socialist are drawn toward electorialism because class activity is low.

    This doesn’t mean that as revolutionaries we don’t engage in trying to build a left alliance even on the basis that it’s focus will predominately be reformist. What we must avoid is allowing ourselves to be undermined by those who want a purely reformist agenda in an alliance. As revolutionaries me must engage in the project to rebuild the left but at the same time we must retain our own identity.

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