ManPal

Norma Turner reports on a day of celebration for Palestine in Manchester.

Saturday 7th June 2008 in Albert Square Manchester saw a fantastic celebration of Palestinian art, culture, history, experience and politics.

For Palestinian people, it is 60 years of the Nakba [disaster]. Yet despite this there is much to celebrate. Palestine and its culture still exist, thanks to the courage and resilience of its people. Palestine Lives – 2008 !

This event was a year in the planning, particularly designed to counter the appalling assertion of 60 years existence of the Zionist Israeli state is something to celebrate. Also, it followed the similar gathering last June in Sheffield, and once again people from northern towns and cities came together and showed their support and solidarity with the Palestinian people.

The political context for the event was set at a meeting the night before. On Friday evening 200 people listened to Ilan Pappe, Israeli historian, explain how the “transfer” of 1948 was, from the start, an integral part of a carefully planned strategy of ethnic cleansing. He has documented proof how this has been planned and achieved, and terrifyingly how the strategy of creating the world’s largest prison is allowed to happen while the rest of the world turns its back – and how this plan has still not yet achieved its ultimate goal of extermination.

The other speaker, Alan Hart, author of “Zionism: Real Enemy of the Jews” outlined how the state of Israel is not just a prison for Palestinian people, but its own worst enemy and a threat not only to peace in the Middle East but also worldwide. He advocated the need for Palestinians both in Palestine and throughout the world to form an organisation to exert political pressure on all the governments of the world, and especially America.

He also gave examples of how the level of oppression exerted by the Zionist state on Palestinians was resulting in dehumanising Jewish people in Israel and in contrast how Palestinian people, despite their oppression, were maintaining their humanity. One example he gave was that the Israelis could bulldoze a Palestinian house and the family would pick up their bits and pieces and sit down and offer you a cup of tea.

This strength and humanity was evident in abundance at the Saturday celebration. Over 1000 people spent time in the Square, many of whom were Palestinians, at some point over the course of the afternoon. A constant core of 500 people watched the performers, listened to the speeches, visited the stalls and exhibitions, ate the food and marched round Manchester on the colourful and lively Parade – and best of all talked to each other and came together with a positive sense of solidarity and purpose. Speakers included Linda Clair (Manchester PSC), Baroness Jenny Tonge (Liberal Democrat), Musheir al Farrar (Palestinian living in Sheffield), Khalid (Palestinian from Gaza), Linda Ramsden (Director of ICAHD UK) and Richard Kuper (Jews for Justice for Palestinians).

Towards the end of the afternoon we all together raised our voices in solidarity to be heard by phone link to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. None of the Manchester zionists mobilised to spoil the event and the majority of the public approaching during the Parade were supportive and willing to engage.

All those who organised and participated in the event felt a sense that it was possible to win over civil society into supporting the Palestinian people, who are suffering the worst atrocities ever inflicted on a people. We learnt that we win over civil society by engaging people in not only what the Palestinian people are losing but in what everyone is losing – that is, the rich history, culture and humanity of Palestine. As was seen in South Africa, when the mass of civil society in all countries around the world take notice and demand the isolation of Israel as the pariah state it is, then the governments of the world will eventually follow. All the speakers agreed that those groups working in solidarity with the Palestinian people must keep up the pressure and recognised that events such as this were a positive way to reach out and educate people.

For more information on how the event was organised contact Manchester Palestinian Solidarity Campaign www.pscmanchester.org.uk

46 responses to “PALESTINE LIVES 2008 – A Manchester celebration”

  1. I’m interested by this phrase: “None of the Manchester zionists mobilised to spoil the event ” is this supposed to imply that zionism is completely opposed to Palestinians rights?

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  2. No Martin it means what is says. That no zionists tried to spoil the event – this has happened in the past.

    As for your inplication you are well aware that most anti-zionists believe that Zionism is indeed completely opposed to Palestinian rights. But you know that don’t you.

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  3. Zionists for Palestine? Whatever next! A few Russians emigres have used the law of return to set themselves up in Israel as Zionists for Nazism. You couldn’t make it up.

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  4. Thanks for an informative and useful article.

    Unfortunately, you spoiled it by the standard Euro_Trotskyist USEC reference to “Civil Society”. Suggest you go and read what Marx had to say about that term and look up the word “Class”.

    Also, I’m not sure what what the phrase “Palestinian people, who are suffering the worst atrocities ever inflicted on a people.” is supposed to mean to anyone with a tenuous grasp of history.

    This is just typical hyperbolic rhetoric which Respect(R) and to some their SWP evil twins spout ‘cos they heard it at Trafalgar Square and swallowed it.
    Rather like the miraculous religious ravings you’ve allowed to infect your political platforms of late.

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  5. Oh dear. I’m sure the author will love to know she’s now part of the ‘Euro_Trotskyist USEC’ (whatever that is) but I’ll be sure to pass on your useful advice about the word ‘class’.

    Anyway, thanks for an informative and useful post.

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  6. Clive,

    “As for your inplication you are well aware that most anti-zionists believe that Zionism is indeed completely opposed to Palestinian rights” Well only if you have a very narrow definition of what zionism is. Next time I’m denounced as being pro-zionist I’ll rebut that I can’t posisbly be because Clive says that zionism is completely opposed to Palestinians rights.

    Would you agree with me that the writer of this article must be a holocaust denier, only such a person could possibly write: “Palestinian people, who are suffering the worst atrocities ever inflicted on a people”.

    This parapgraph is particularly striking “He also gave examples of how the level of oppression exerted by the Zionist state on Palestinians was resulting in dehumanising Jewish people in Israel and in contrast how Palestinian people, despite their oppression, were maintaining their humanity.” What could it possibly mean!?

    Of course all this is pretty standard fare anti-semitic stuff: Jews are inhuman, the holocaust wasn’t really that bad, Israel as a pariah state which must be opposed by the whole world.

    This attitude can never be a solution to the problems facing palestinians. It is a time for socialists to take stock, a time for restating our basic attitudes. We must once more commit ourselves to solidarity action that is consistent with the only long-term political framework that can reconcile the peoples of the Israeli-Palestinian territory: two states for two peoples.

    • We oppose the economic blockade of Gaza. As US “liberal” Nathan Brown describes, this has nothing to do with any justifiable, “ordinary” political pressure against clerical fascist Hamas: “The cumulative effect [of the sanctions]… can hardly be described as calibrated pressure; instead it is better described as an attempt to shut down an economy encompassing a million and a half people combined with an international effort to mitigate the most severe effects of engineered economic collapse.”

    Gaza, that is the entire population of Gaza, has been held to ransom.

    • Socialists should not give one iota of political support to Hamas. Bit by bit Hamas is establishing a repressive clerical fascist regime in Gaza. It enforces repressive “security” and justice, media compliance and increasingly Islamist social pressure. In Gaza it applies its programme for the whole of Palestine, should it win overall control.

    • Socialists should oppose the left that promotes Hamas as anti-imperialist heroes (often against the “imperialist stooges” of Fatah). Simon Assaf is Socialist Worker’s main Hamas promoter. It is dirty and dishonest work. For instance in an article in SW (29 January) he describe Hamas as a “movement” — not the strong highly organised and centralised group with a cell structure that it is. He calls it “a resistance organisation” — but not the political Islamist organisation that it is.

    And Hamas stands for? He says that it is simply that part of the movement that “rejects any peace deal with Israel that does not address the central issues faced by Palestinians.” Implying that its rejectionism is to do with the terms of any two state deal. But Hamas rejects “two states” entirely; it wants to see an Islamic state in the entire territory of Israel-Palestine!

    • Socialists must solidarise with those Palestinians who combine opposition to Israeli occupation with resisting Islamist social pressure and repression in Gaza and elsewhere.

    • Socialists can have no political faith in the waning Bush administration to stitch up any deal in Israel-Palestine, let alone one that does much justice to the Palestinians.

    • Socialists warn against future military moves by Israel against Gaza, moves that seen increasingly likely.

    • Socialists must call for an international solidarity campaign which focuses on: Israel withdraw to the 67 borders, for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, in contiguos territory where the Palestinians are the basic majority. An independent Palestine — even if Hamas ruled there — would be better than the status quo. Palestinians would have their national rights.

    • Socialists must support the Jewish and Arab Israeli grass root campaigns against the occupation. A demonstration against the most recent Israeli military incursion into Gaza mobilised broader layers than usual (see report by an Israeli socialist here).

    • International socialists must support the campaign of Gush Shalom to send humanitarian aid convoys to Gaza;

    • Back the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitons who speak out against Israel’s driving out of the Bedouin in the Negev.

    • Support the Arab Jaffa residents who stood in solidarity with poor Jews expelled to make way for posh developments in Tel Aviv. The significance of this working class and poor people’s solidarity accross the rives of blood and hatred is a small example of the sort of attitude that could radically transform the whole situation for the better.

    The only way to undermine and destroy the dishonesty and bankrupt ideology of the ruling classes and reactionary political forces who dominate the terms of the Middle East conflict is a strong grass roots counterweight — a militant labour movement in the Israeli and Arab working classes committed to a democratic solution to the conflict, two states. That is the only way to build. A confident, uncompromising, democratic peace movement and credible secular alternatives. Our solidarity can help the alternatives that do exist to grow much stronger.

    )

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  7. “Socialists must call for an international solidarity campaign which focuses on: Israel withdraw to the 67 borders, for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, in contiguos territory where the Palestinians are the basic majority”

    Funny how the weaknesses in the basic geography of that statement seems to be beyond you.

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  8. Martin Ohr,
    The idea that those supporting palestinian rights are somehow holocaust deniers is an insult..

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  9. jj, I never said that, I said that someone who writes: “Palestinian people, who are suffering the worst atrocities ever inflicted on a people” clearly is a denier though.

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  10. how terribly disrespectful martin. those bloody palestinians really must be educated mustn’t they? Perhaps a few more beatings will teach them more humanity.

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  11. Martin, if I said that the Ethiopian Teachers’ Assocation has been the most oppressed union in history- with shootngs in the street, disappearences, torture, beating to death in prison I am emphasising that I am very concerned and passionate.

    It would be a very strange response to say that I am denying the Nazi atrocities against trade unionists, the atrocities of the British empire against trade unionists
    etc.

    If I said the British NUM was smashed why not accuse me of also being a denier of others’ suffering? Actually it is perfectly possible to oppose all national oppression and all attacks on the working class without setting up a hierarchy saying we’re

    There is an argument that a people as oppressed as the Palestinians with the utter despair, the millions of refugees, the racist state denying them even basic rights are extremely oppressed.

    To twist this into saying this is holocasut denial is logically indefensible and politically dishonest. Why not accuse Norma of denying the genocide in the Congo or Darfur? Your point is wrong and should be withdrawn.

    Similarly, your point “This parapgraph is particularly striking “He also gave examples of how the level of oppression exerted by the Zionist state on Palestinians was resulting in dehumanising Jewish people in Israel and in contrast how Palestinian people, despite their oppression, were maintaining their humanity.” What could it possibly mean!?

    Of course all this is pretty standard fare anti-semitic stuff: Jews are inhuman, the holocaust wasn’t really that bad, Israel as a pariah state which must be opposed by the whole world. ”

    This is absolutely wrong-headed in argumentation and again using a false charge of racism and anti-semitism that is again out of order and should be withdrawn.

    What could it mean? It means that a nation that oppresses another is dehumanised by so doing. I have heard such an argument in relation to British colonialism, apartheid South Africa and many other exmples. It is by no means arguing Jews (or British colonists) are not human- it is saying the actions of the state and the settler coloinalists is inhuman and perhaps dehumanising.

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  12. Your points are really quite disgusting on this and serve no useful purpose but to throw insults and confusion on these matters.

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  13. There is not much to be gained from trying to engage with a position as wilfully perverse, provocative and objectionable as the one that Martin is putting forward. His current has chosen to occupy a very particular niche when it comes to the Middle East and they are welcome to it.

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  14. Sorry Liam, it’s not a ‘niche’ – it’s a gutter.

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  15. Fair point, Liam but I thought the particular insulting nature of Martin’s points did need highlighting and rebutting but I’ll leave it there.

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  16. I agree Jason, the AWL’s hypocritical quasi- racist flirtation with Zionism should not be allowed to pass unchallenged.
    As Olmert the racist – Zionist Israeli PM observed, the reason why the Israelis promote the two state solution, advocated by the AWL, is because the Israeli ruling class fear an anti-apartheid style struggle;
    “”If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights (also for the Palestinians in the territories), then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished.”
    For all the rubbish they chat – when all is said and done – the AWL support apartheid.
    Not surprising then that they’re rather rude is it?

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  17. “His current has chosen to occupy a very particular niche when it comes to the Middle East”

    JUST LIKE ISRAEL!

    etc.

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  18. Jason, I take your point about hyperbole regarding who is the most oppressed, but Jews have a particular history of having suffering minimised, and unfortunately currents within the british left have slipped into this, it’s not just about saying that palestinians suffering is real and terrible and must be opposed, but instead feeds into denial that the holocaust was really so bad. MAB have some posters -which were particularly common as placards and on coaches during the big Iraw demonstrations which have a photo of a palestinian refugee camp and the slogan “This is the real holocaust” printed on them. I think some of the left have been infected by this type of crap.

    In context it’s not hard to see that a reasonable person would take the phrase in the original peice to be minimising the suffering of the holocaust -in the context the the article is framed. There are other smatterings of dodgy writing- again this is common for anti-semites to try to link symbolically the holocaust and the language of the nazis with Israel: Israel having an ultimate goal of extermination of Palestinians etc.

    I do apologise for being “rather rude”, I did intend to write a rebuttal to the strategy suggested in the article which I think is doomed to failure compared to the multi-point plan of my later comments. I propose, but I got sidetracked by my annoyance by what seemed to be another attempt to minimise the holocaust. Perhaps comrades here could address themselves to the substantive of criticising that.

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  19. Actually that’s rubbish.
    The only “reasonable” person who believed that it was you – the defender of apartheid Israel.
    No coincidence.
    Neither is your rudeness.

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  20. Bill J, it’s hard to engage in any discussion where you just write insults at me- Never anywhere have I defended the actions of the Israeli state. It would be interesting to have a debate on how Israel could possibly be described as apparthied, another terrible label which has infected the left and turns all debate about solidarity or finding a way forward into simpling siding with goodies against baddies, I thought your tendency were made of more substantial theory than that.

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  21. It’s impossible to swallow the view that the Israeli’s are unfortunates who have somehow found themselve under seige from the Arab world and Palestinians when they invaded the area and drove out anyone who didn’t support their invasion. When you factor in the fact that Israel is the Middle Eastern wing of US imperialism then, Martin, your arguement that this issue is not about goodies and baddies is rather trite.
    I doubt whether you use this unmarxist analysis to understand and address the conflict between capitalists and workers or aparthied South Africa and black South Africans so why fudge the issue regarding Palestine?

    Is it because you have bought into the Zionist arguement that any criticism of Isreal is anti-semitic and might lead another holocaust? If so then you need to recognise that the daily torture, murder and oppression of Palestinians that is done in the name of Zionism is not the answer to anti-semitism.

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  22. To Martin:

    There are of course holocaust deniers. Unfortunately some people who claim to support the Palestinians may make anti-Semitic remarks- if they do this should be roundly condemned.

    Norma’s article did not do this. Therefore it is wrong to react to it in the way you did.

    There are also people who attempt to label any criticism of Israel or the Israeli ruling class as anti-Semitic or racist. You may not always do this but your reaction to Norma’s piece was like that. This makes a reasonable debate much harder.

    On the issue of apartheid, the comparison with South Africa and a boycott:

    In campaigns it is not uncommon to draw lessons from previous analogous campaigns- particularly when successful. Of course if the analogy is false this method is unhelpful.

    Are Arabs in Israel/Palestine denied rights on a racial basis in an analogous way to Black people in South Africa?

    Are there armed checkpoints/ curfews/ pass laws/ discrimination enshrined in the law?

    Is there a mass movement amongst not only the Arabs but also a small but significant section of the Jewish population?

    Is there an attempt to create a homeland policed by the larger state with border control in the hands of the larger state?

    Is there appalling brutality from a racist state?

    I would say on all of this yes.

    Are there some differences? Yes- e..g the Jewish population is comparatively much larger than white South Africans. There may be other differences as well. There aren’t as far as I’m aware Jewish only cafes for example.

    Racism against Jewish people is reality in western societies whereas there was no racism against white South Africans.

    But sometimes politics needs analogies. Apartheid Israel should not forestall and foreclose all debate but it is a useful description suggesting a mass boycott and mass solidarity campaign is a good idea.

    Now to Martin’s bullet points:
    1,2, 4, 5, 6,,9, 10- agreed. 8- Gush Shalom probably do good work as part of the Israeli peace movement- cannot agree to their aim of the 1967 border but on practical solidarity if it is unconditional and united front campaigns for withdrawal from the occupied territories could agree with them.

    3- should support Hamas right to defence against IDF aggression, right to the democratic government, oppose it politically and oppose bombing of Israeli civilians.

    7- is wrong headed
    ” Socialists must call for an international solidarity campaign which focuses on: Israel withdraw to the 67 borders, for a Palestinian state alongside Israel, in contiguos territory where the Palestinians are the basic majority. An independent Palestine — even if Hamas ruled there — would be better than the status quo. Palestinians would have their national rights.”

    Palestinian national rights should include the right of return, not just live in the places they have been herded into but to live in areas from where they have been ethnically cleansed- i.e. the whole of Palestine/ Israel as now is.

    Of course there are immense practical problems- we are not for forcibly evicting Jewish families but we are for a just democratic solution based on a workers’ republic of Palestine/Israel with equal rights for Arabs and Jews (and all other ethnic groups).

    This will require a mass social working class movement of resistance with international solidarity. it will probably require a revolution. Jewish and Arab workers are class sisters and brothers- in the white heat of the class struggle enmity and racial prejudice and hatred can be dissolved but must also be consciously fought for- against all anti Arab racism and all anti-Jewish racism (anti-Semitism, though the Arabs are of course also a Semitic people)

    In the meantime though belief in a one state solution is not a precondition for united front or joint work. We should work with those organisations who may support a two state solution in specific campaigns (including Israeli peace movement and Palestinian groups in favour of two states)- e.g. against the occupation, for withdrawal from the occupied territories, against Israeli military aggression.

    As socialists though we should clearly state our aim- socialist revolution for a unitary secular workers’ state of Palestine, recognising full rights for all ethnic groups- including autonomy- based on armed workers’ councils of Palestinians and Jewish workers, as part of a wider socialist revolution in the Middle East

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  23. Jason wrote:

    “(anti-Semitism, though the Arabs are of course also a Semitic people)”

    I was going to avoid commenting on this singularly uninformed, limited and stilted discussion but I couldn’t let Jason’s ill informed comment pass

    Semitic relates to a language type, not a people.

    antisemitism was a euphemism for Judenhass, “Jew hate”, it does not specifically include other groups in the Middle East, it’s aimed directly at Jews

    might I suggest as a teacher that you educate yourself on this matter?

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  24. Actually modernity your slightly ill-tempered attempt at showing off a little knowledge misfires here.

    Semitic is not purely a linguistic construct.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
    http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/geoghist/histories/oldcivilization/phoenicia/semlang/semlang.html

    Anti- Semitism of course refers exclusively to hatred of Jewish people which is why I referred to it as specifically anti-Jewish.

    There are several Semitic languages- Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, Guragi, Tigrinya, Aramaic.

    There are several common words and common roots between the languages of Arabic, Hebrew and Amharic (which I speak) for example though they are not mutually intelligble- except for some very simple words and perhaps a few simple sentences if you strain. The scripts are different though.

    But thanks for the thought…

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  25. Actually modernity your slightly ill-tempered attempt at showing off a little knowledge misfires here.

    Semitic is not purely a linguistic construct. Anti- Semitism though refers exclusively to hatred of Jewish people which is why I referred to it as specifically anti-Jewish.

    There are several Semitic languages- Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, Guragenya, Tigrinya, and Aramaic- for example.

    There are several common words and common roots between the languages of Arabic, Hebrew and Amharic (which I speak) for example though they are not mutually intelligible- except for some very simple words and perhaps a few simple sentences if you strain. The scripts are different though.

    But thanks for the thought…

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  26. Jason,

    you seem singularly unaware that one of the arguments used by the far right (and others) which runs along the lines of:

    “I can’t be antisemitic because I don’t hate Arabs (who are semites)”

    which is, of course, a pile of nonsense, and more so if a socialist is going to argue about it

    btw, do you also believe in the existence of the “Aryan” people??

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  27. modernity as I quite clearly said- though you seem unable to acknowledge- as a direct quote:
    “Anti- Semitism though refers exclusively to hatred of Jewish people which is why I referred to it as specifically anti-Jewish.”

    I also said in the earlier post
    “Jewish and Arab workers are class sisters and brothers- in the white heat of the class struggle enmity and racial prejudice and hatred can be dissolved but must also be consciously fought for- against all anti Arab racism and all anti-Jewish racism (anti-Semitism”

    Your last point is offensive as well as woefully inaccurate.

    Firstly, there is no uch thing as race- they are cultural constructs.

    Secondly, you in exactly the way I was critiicising seem to imply I’m some kind of Nazi
    “btw, do you also believe in the existence of the “Aryan” people??”

    As someone else wrote on here
    “it’s hard to engage in any discussion where you just write insults at me- ”

    Your points are entirely apolitical and entirely unhelpful in developing any meaningful solidarity with the Palestinians or for class struggle politics.

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  28. Jason

    do forgive me, I keep forgetting how petty and argumentative the petty bourgeoisie like you are, it gets very tiring

    my point all along is that same type of argument is used by many ignorant people on this topic and it only seeks to muddy the water

    thus I was shocked by your comment that “(anti-Semitism, though the Arabs are of course also a Semitic people)

    because unless you think certain people’s are grouped in certain “types” Semitic, non Semitic, Aryan, etc then such a statement is nonsense

    and no, I don’t think you are a Nazi or anything close, but you might choose your language with greater care in the future 🙂

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  29. Well as you don’t know me I can’t tell how I’m petit-bourgeois- I don’t as it happens own any shops or even market stall or any other business.

    That aside, I’m sorry if you found it confusing, despite my very clear anti-racist stance, to point out the shared cultural, lnguisitc and other history of Jewish, Arab and other ethnic groups amongs the working class.

    Of course there is no such thing as a race in any scientific sense and as the statement you semingly object to starts by appealing to class solidarity your point is over-pedantic I think.

    Anyway enough on this narrow point for now-

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  30. Its not an insult to say that the AWL are defenders of apartheid Israel.
    Its simply true – the AWL do defend apartheid Israel.
    And in calling Israel a version of apartheid I was following the Zionist racist Erhut Olmert – the Israeli Prime Minister.
    He at least has the benefit of not having to pretend Israel is anything other than it is.
    Maybe you want a “democratic” apartheid, or a “socialist” apartheid – or a “not quite as shamelessly awful” apartheid, than the present Israeli state, but all these versions of apartheid are simply nonsense.
    Apartheid cannot be democratic, socialist, or any less awful.
    Its not surprising that given you support for the racist oppression of the Palestinian people – that’s what the existence of Israeli apartheid means – you are rude to the the rest of us lefties.
    Its the bile from the belly of the beast.

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  31. bill j, there is no answering such incohorent rants. I think there is a debate to be had whether there is in any benefit in describing Israel as racist, and what this means for a way forward; it would be an interesting debate to have. However no debate can take place if you simply accuse me of something that i’m not, I’ve never once, anywhere defended the actions of the Israeli state, neither to my knowledge has the AWL. I don’t support the oppression of palestinians in any sense, anywhere in the world and I’ve been consistent in my opposition to this in 25 years involvment in left politics.

    It would be nice -once in a while- to be able to debate something on a left blog that doesn’t come down to plain abuse, I honestly thought PR were made of more substantial stuff and that you’d left the playground style argy-bargy to the big kids of Workers Power; perhaps you can prove me right be engaging in political debate rather than name calling

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  32. “I don’t support the oppression of palestinians in any sense,”

    of course except for having their homes bombed- supported by AWL.
    Not able to support giving back what was ethnically cleansed 50 yrs ago.ie homes, land etc

    yes Mr Ohr apart from that you are all for Palestinian rights!!

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  33. Name calling? I’m not the one describing your position as an incoherent rant. Its no incoherent – I’m simply pointing out that you support a racist policy. Whether that makes you a racist I’ll leave for others to decide.
    The AWL have carved a niche for themselves through their defence of Israel. I don’t see why you bother to deny it. It’s what the “two state” position is predicated upon.
    As Erhut Olmert explains the “two state” position is key for the defence of what he calls “apartheid Israel” as it prevents the development of a “one man one vote” solution.
    You too oppose a one man one vote – one person one vote solution – you support racial discrimination against Palestinian people – as does Olmert – to ensure the continued existence of Israel.
    This is all entirely consistent and coherent – its called racist Zionism – sure kid yourself you’re different, but the truth of your support for racist oppression is manifested in the venomous denunciation of other principled leftists.
    Freud would call it a “slip.”
    You might have thought many things about PR – I hope I’ve exploded one of those thoughts – the idea that we have in any way retreated on our defence of democratic rights and socialism in the middle east.

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  34. with this thread, liam’s is taking on the flavour of SU and it’s worse elements

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  35. Hey Modernity! I think we still have some distance to travel before we achieve that but your point is well made.

    This discussion has run its course and I’ll delete any further comments on it.

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  36. BillJ

    This is silly, it’s just turning into me defending myself against implications of racism, because of a position I hold the best solution for palestinians. For the record I don’t support a racist policy in any sense that the word would usually be defined.

    I believe that I argue the same thing as you, for a united secular workers state (not just for palestine, but across the whole world), the question is how to get their. The point of the two-state solution that socialists advocate is not that it is pefect or an end game, but that it is a stepping-stone that reflects the competing national liberation struggles within palestine and Israel. It’s a historical fact that Israel exists and whatever the wrongs done during its creation no amount of posturing or sloganeering is going to wipe it out.

    Given there exists two self-definingly different peoples competing for one piece of land and that as socialists our goal is revolution rather than presiding over issuing historical justice, the question arises how can you solve the conflict in such a way to create the minimum suffering and maximise the chances of workers unity. One way to solve it is of course to simply destroy one side of the conflict, thats the chosen path of a minority of extremists on both sides who actively seek the violent destruction of either Israel or Palestine. Others seek get one side to simply abolish themselves. My view and the view of the AWL is that the only effective solution is to agree to split Israel/Palestine into seperate states with the aim that resolving the national conflict will allow socialists to concentrate on class instead. This is not a position that supports the current Israeli state, but it argues against all the other possible alternatives as either impossible or inhumane.

    The right of return is an interesting problem to grapple with for socialists and opens up a similar set of interests. I don’t think that the right to return would be possible given a two-state solution because it would effectively destroy it, and there’d also be wider implications -is this a principle that only applies to palestinians for example or will familiies of holocaust victims be allowed the right to reclaim property etc? But right of return is not a show stopper, in any settlement there’d need to be huge reparations anway.

    Over the last 20 years the british left has become more and more influenced by those which either seek the destruction of Israel by violent destruction of Israeli Jews or who think that Israel can be persuaded to abolish itself in a parallel to the apparthied regime in South Africa. Some of the language used on the left relflects this slippage from honestly trying to find a solution which benefits class politics into a retreat to Israelis as ‘baddies’. Part of this is either accidentally or deliberately using language and themes which chimes with anti-semitism: minimising or denying the holocaust, comparing Israeli Jews with Nazis, applying the imagary and methods of anti-fascism to anti-zionism, suggesting that anyone who supports the right of Israeli Jews not to their own state is being secretly controlled by Israel and/or the US etc etc.

    Where the left slips into casual co-existence with anti-semtic themes either by accident or design we have a duty to point this out. There is no hope of a workers revolution in palestine, israel or anywhere on the basis of a hatred of one particular group of people.

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  37. Liam, I’d already started typing my last comment before you said you would delete anything further, please let me have the last word on this one.

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  38. The thing is Martin you can ask for the last word on this but you don’t really engage with much I wrote at all.

    It’s all very well for modernity to object that it brings out the sort of personal abuse witnessed at SUN- perhaps but that may also be part of the problem in having a discussion on these matters.

    In deference to Liam’s request I will not say more on this- though it does seem somehat galling to be accused of something (“I honestly thought PR were made of more substantial stuff and that you’d left the playground style”) and have no right of reply but I guess we’ll have to have this debate elsewhere.

    Pity.

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  39. Jason,

    I would love to continue this discussion elsewhere, my blog or at Shiraz Socialist, but I don’t feel it is right to fill up Liam’s blog with petty bile and sectarian bun fights, as shown above, whilst they probably make you and bill j feel happy, they are not very productive and show many of the worse aspects of the English Left.

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  40. If you can show where I have been sectarian please be my guest and in meantime post link where you propse having a debate

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  41. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    [sigh]

    my own name was the link, I thought that would have been bloody obvious?

    try or using google to find Shiraz Socialist http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/

    if you ask Voltaire’s Priest (top right hand side at Shiraz Socialist), he’ll probably open up a thread just for you 🙂

    Like

  42. charliethechulo Avatar
    charliethechulo

    The issue’s simple (in principle, if not practice):
    Yes to a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel;
    Yes to Israeli withdrawal to 1967 borders;
    No to the demonisation of Israel
    No to racist double standards and boycott campaigns
    For a two state solution…
    …anyone who can’t, broadly, sign up to the above is either an ultra-right-wing Zionist or an anti-semite.

    It’s as simple as that.

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  43. I did look on your site modernity but no recent thread on this as a general topic.

    The issue certainly is not simple charliethechulo but I will refrain from commenting here so as not to upset Liam except to say your penultimate point of a simpolistic dichotomy is part of the problem I think.

    Like

  44. The issue is simple in principle and practice.
    No to a two state apartheid Israel.
    Yes to democracy and one person one vote.
    Anyone who can’t sign up to that is a racist Zionist.

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  45. geez, you’d never think that the parts of Left has a problem with technology?

    Jason,

    I wrote that if you go to Shiraz Socialist, then leave a message for Voltaire’s Priest in one of the other threads, then he’ll probably open up a new discussion, Voltaire’s Priest is one of the site admins.

    is that clear?

    my own thread http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/open-thread-on-tibet-and-the-middle-east/

    is viewable on the right hand of the screen, three posts down, but it is better to comment Shiraz Socialist, they have more traffic and visitors

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