Liam redux

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A brief impression of the Compass conference

Alan Thornett went along and here’s what he made of it. About 1,000 people attended the Compass conference on Saturday with the title No Turning Back. They were by no means all members of the Labour Party, though there were few there from the far-left.  Compass, of course, is the soft left of the Labour…

Liam
2–3 minutes

Alan Thornett went along and here’s what he made of it.

About 1,000 people attended the Compass conference on Saturday with the title No Turning Back. They were by no means all members of the Labour Party, though there were few there from the far-left.  Compass, of course, is the soft left of the Labour Party and the overwhelming impression was one of Labour Party loyalism. Anything can happen inside the LP after the events of the past few months but if Compass is to be a part of any kind of serious opposition to Brownism they have a very long way to go. Compass is quite a few notches to the right of left Labour MPs such was John McDonnell or Jeremy Corbyn who were as far as I could tell not there.

Harriet Harman spoke in the opening plenary and was given a disconcertingly polite reception. Compass speakers were insistent that they were against a leadership contest and wanted Gordon Brown to remain in place until the election. The issue they said was policy not personality. The implication seemed to be to back the Brownites against the Blairites —  yet Brown is as much the architect of New Labour as Blair. There was no mention, for example, of any challenge to Brown from the left at LP conference.

The most left-wing speech in the opening plenary was Caroline Lucas (unfortunately I was not able to stay until the final plenary where Paul Mason was speaking, along with Polly Toynbee and Evan Harris)  who not only brought in a welcome ecological dimension, which was woefully absent in the event, but called for example for “not only a minimum wage but a maximum wage”. This had apparently been rejected at the Green Party conference.
There were 30 workshops during the course of the day. One of the biggest was one on the them of “A New Socialism’ — in which Caroline Lucas again spoke along with Along with Jon Cruddas, Adam Price of Plaid Cymru and Salma Yaqoob of Respect.

Jon Cruddas was rather disappointing in this but the others were more interesting. On the title of the workshop Caroline Lucas said that she had no problem with the word “socialism’ but was very wary of the word ‘new’ being put in front of anything. Both Salma Yaqoob and Adam Price made left-wing speeches.

Salma Yaqoob made the strongest attack on new Labour I heard during the day. She condemned them over the closure of LDV Vans in Birmingham and called for government intervention to save it. She called for the taxing of the rich and heavily attacked new Labour’s racist immigration policy which she said had prepared the ground for the election of BNP MEPs. She also made a broad appeal for left unity and in particular for the prevention of clashes between left candidates inside and outside of the LP at the general election.

51 responses to “A brief impression of the Compass conference”

  1. Adamski Avatar
    Adamski

    Adam Price tends to use left sounding rhetoric, but it is only rhetoric, he is certainly not to the left of Cruddas.

    He is wont to quote to abuse the memory of Gramsci, but when AG talked of ‘hegemony’ and ‘historic blocs’ he wasn’t talking of Labour-Plaid lash up in the Assembly methinks. He may have read Welsh maestro historian Gwyn Alf Williams masterful book on the Turin Factory occupations – Proletarian Order – but clearly has not grasped the politics, he might check out Perry Anderson essay ‘The antinomies of Antonio Gramsci’.

    Adam Price has made overtures to the Tories – http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2008/04/26/plaid-willing-to-talk-to-tories-91466-20823260/ – that Plaid would be willing to prop them up in an event of a hung parliament in exchange for more devolution – we remember what the Tories did to the working class communities here & such sickening scabbing should not be tolerated (Plaid almost went into a coalition with the Tories in the Assembly that would have seen Tory ministers there).

    He also is to the right of Gordon Brown & Maggie Thatcher on the question of taxing big business believing that an independent Wales should drastically cut corporation tax to even lower levels to rebuild Wales economy through courting big business. Rather than restoring a living student grant and free education, he advocates a tax on graduates.

    I was also frankly appalled when he suggested that Iraq must be partitioned to prevent civil war. (In an article from the Western Mail that can be found here:
    http://babylonians.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/british-politician-calls-for-partition-of-iraq-opponents-need-%E2%80%9Creality-check%E2%80%9D/)

    Even more appalled that Plaid recently ditched its opposition to student fees with only 2 of their elected representatives making a token protest against them abandoning a manifesto commitment.

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  2. Adamski Avatar
    Adamski

    Sorry that link doesn’t seem to be working, this is the article in the WESTERN MAIL which is the mainstream newspaper in Wales

    PLAID CYMRU MP CALLS FOR IRAQ TO BE SPLIT TO ENSURE PEACE

    October 1, 2007
    By David Williamson, Western Mail

    PLAID Cymru MP Adam Price has become one of the first UK politicians to call for the partition of Iraq.

    He has come to the conclusion Iraq has no future as a “unitary state” in which Sunni and Shia Muslims and Kurds will share power.

    Convinced that the ethnic groups cannot be forced to live together, Mr. Price favours either a confederal system or outright independence for the communities.

    The Kurdish region in northern Iraq, he argues, enjoys de facto independence.

    Mr. Price believes unless Iraq is formally divided, violent elements within the minority Sunnis will continue to attempt to regain the dominance of the region they enjoyed during the rule of Saddam Hussein.

    He said, “The Shia, having suffered decades of repression, are using their majority position for all its worth.”

    The Bush administration has opposed the break-up of Iraq but supporters of division scored a major victory last week when the US Senate passed a non-binding resolution in favour of a federal model.

    Mr. Price – a vociferous opponent of the war who led a parliamentary effort to impeach former Prime Minister Tony Blair – is adamant that the time has come for the US and Britain to give up efforts to preserve Iraq as a nation state.

    He said, “We shouldn’t try and force existing borders [on the Iraqis] if lives are being lost.”

    Managed progress to partition is preferable to continued sectarian warfare, he argues – though he acknowledges the creation of new countries in a volatile and oil-rich region may not promote stability in the immediate term.

    Key opponents of partition include the Turkish government, which fears an independent Kurdish state could destabilise border areas which are home to large numbers of ethnic Kurds.

    Debate also continues about how Iraq’s oil would be divided among the different groups. Control of Baghdad – the multiethnic capital – will be one of the most contentious subjects in any future negotiations.

    Despite the immense challenges posed by partition, Mr Price said that opponents of sectarian division needed a “reality check”.

    He said, “It’s going to happen sooner or later.”

    Rather than allowing a full-scale civil war to develop, he wants the work of dividing the country to begin now.

    The MP said, “There will be minority communities however you would eventually draw up any map. You would still need a peace and reconciliation at a local, regional and communal level.”

    The eventual collapse of Yugoslavia into former states involved great violence but brought an end to vicious killing of minorities, he contended.

    “If that hadn’t happened those conflicts would have gone on far, far longer and been far bloodier,” he said.

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  3. harpymarx Avatar
    harpymarx

    To be honest, I prefer to watch paint dry than lose precious hours of my life (I want those hours back…) listening to former (?) Brown supporters.

    It sounds like last year’s conference. Harriet Harman getting a polite reception going on about the Equalities Bill (we just need more women in Parliament apparently!!)…
    Jon Cruddas.. coming across as left-wing yet it had only been a couple of days previously when he voted for 42 days!!
    Oh, and Derek Simpson (to rapturous applause) about repealing the anti-trade union laws….

    They are a politically unstable and volatile bunch, Compass, can you trust their political trajectory…?!?!

    Oh, and Neal Lawson has spoken passionately about why the Welfare Reform Bill is appalling yet Cruddas was no where to be seen come the debate in Parliament at the 2nd reading. Utterly disgraceful but why am I surprised re Cruddas’s track record!

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  4. Adamski Avatar
    Adamski

    Jonathan Rutherhood who seems to be a big fish in Compass, it should be put on record, has written an excellent series of articles on welfare reform.

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  5. charliemarks Avatar
    charliemarks

    Good to hear the things Caroline Lucas and Salma Yaqoob were saying – I hope that close cooperation between Respect and the Greens that happened during the Euro elections will continue, incidentally.

    I can understand why John McDonnell and co. are reluctant to engage with Compass on the basis of the stitch-up the Campaign Group suffered with regards allowing a coronation rather than a leadership challenge. However the diversity of the participants at the conference was significant – social liberals, Greens, and Welsh nationalists.

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  6. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Charlie – I’d guess that the main reason John Mc Donnell and his co-thinkers don’t engage with Compass is because they see no point in working with people who refuse to criticise Brown and see the early days of Blair as a golden age.

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  7. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    Absolutely right Liam.

    But isn’t this the group that your Respect leadership is trying to link up with? I think its called “coalition building” and involves Compass, the Greens and Respect. Isn’t this the project of Salma Yacoob, Ger Francis, George Galloway et al which is why she was at the conference?

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  8. charliemarks Avatar
    charliemarks

    Cruddas is trying to appeal to the better nature (!) of New Labour ministers when he talks favourably about the coalition that brought Blair to power. But more to the point, McDonnell and co. agreed to back Cruddas for deputy leader if Compass would back a leadership contest rather than allow a coronation. Instead, Cruddas and co backed Brown.

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  9. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Salma spoke at the conference because she was invited to. All this stuff about her presence being evidence of some scheme to get a ‘coalition’ with Compass (or anybody else for that matter) is complete and utter conspiratorial fantasy.

    What Salma did call for at the conference was for the left to unite at election time and ensure we act in a way that progresses the totality of the left, not just this or that fragment of it. Where we can prevent the undercutting of the broad left vote, and enhance it even, lets act together to do so.

    Seems pretty sensible and feasible stuff to me.

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  10. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Exactly it “seems pretty sensible and feasible stuff” so its not fantasy then is it?
    The right wing of Respect Salam Yaqoob, Ger Francis, Andy Newman etc. want a lash up with the “centre left”, i.e. anyone who claims to be to the left of Gordon Brown.
    You’re welcome to it. But please stop trying to drag the rest of us down the drain with you.

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  11. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    We’re not. Your non-involvement would be really most welcome.

    Mark P

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  12. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Mark illustrates that the sort of rudeness and arrogance that infected much of te left is still alive and well,,.

    I think that this has had a not small effect… we need a change of culture on this

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  13. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    Ger Francis says the accusation of Respect wanting coalition building with Compass and the Greens is “utter conspiratorial fantasy”.

    To quote Ger Francis from 5 days ago:

    “The Southwark people are on their way out of Respect because fundamentally they have a perspective completely at odds with ours. Theirs is with a vision of left unity, held by only a handful inside RESPECT, that excludes the Green left and the centre left in the Labour party, and confines itself instead solely to fragments of the hard left, while harboring some fantasy about a new political entity of like minded souls.” Comment by Ger Francis on Socialist Unity Blog, 14 June, 2009 @ 10:51 am

    Clearly a case of political amnesia!

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  14. charliemarks Avatar
    charliemarks

    Is it just me? I really don’t care how people describe their politics. Folks in Compass, Socialist Campaign Group, the Greens, and Respect agree more than they disagree. It makes sense to work together and to have electoral non-aggression pacts.

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  15. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Jason. Its not rudeness or arrogance. You and your group are a tiny band of revolutionary socialists who have little or no faith in the virtues of either social democracy or working with its representatives. You believe any coalition-building with a group like Compass and most of the Green Party is doomed from the outset. So if you think that why on earth get involved except for motives of ‘we told you so’ variety.

    You are welcome to whatever your group wants to get up to prove me and others wrong. And if you want to work with the SWP, SP, CPB , RMT leadership towards a new Workers Party, well you’re welcome to one another.

    But don’t preach to us that we’re sell-outs but you’d like the right to join us to tell us that.

    Mark P

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  16. ID Avatar
    ID

    “faith in the virtues of either social democracy”

    I suppose Rosa Luxumburg and Karl Liebknect could be criticised for a ‘lack of faith in the virtues of social democracy’. That presumably is why the wonderful social democracy had to slaughter them.

    Anyway, its not even social democracy that Mark P is adovcating. Its outright bourgeois politics. He obviously loathes those trade unions who do still uphold one of the more positive aspects of left-wing social democracy, the idea that working class people do need their own party, independent of the parties of other classes, to represent them under bourgeois democracy.

    By attacking the whole concept of independent working class representation, Mark P exposes himself as basically a left Blairite. The Labour Party was originally formed to represent workers in this way; the clue is in the name ‘Labour’ as well as the wording of Clause IV prior to 1995. Mark P is effectively agreeing with Blair that all that is old hat and the formation of the LP must therefore have been a ‘sectarian’ mistake. What we now need, according to him, is alliances with Greens and Blarites, not independent working class politics.

    “And if you want to work with the SWP, SP, CPB , RMT leadership towards a new Workers Party, well you’re welcome to one another.”

    If only! PR want no such thing. All their rather silly sloganising is directed to building their own tiny sect, nothing to do with this project.

    And ‘Charlie Marks’ says “Folks in Compass, Socialist Campaign Group, the Greens, and Respect agree more than they disagree. It makes sense to work together and to have electoral non-aggression pacts.”

    Tell that to the Greens, Compass etc! You really think they will put unity with working class organisations before the political fortunes of New Labour, the Green Party, etc? The Greens have always refused to stand down against both the Socialist Alliance and Respect. And Compass couldn’t even bring themselves to support John McDonnell’s right to be on the ballot for the Labour leadership. As CM himself pointed out, they supported the coronation of Gordon Brown.

    These are expressions of middle class hostility to independent working class politics.

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  17. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    ID try to rein back on the cliched moralising masquerading as politics.

    Good luck with the project of an independent working class politics, presumably the magnificent 1% achieved by No2EU was a significant step in that direction. If it was keep walking.

    As for your revulsion at social democracy. Well all I can say we would be in such a sorry state if we’d had at least the faintest resemblance of that for the past thirteen years, instead we’ve been governed by unashamed neo-liberals.

    You and your co-thinkers clearly hanker after a new workers party, good luck luck with it, its working-class base of support I’m sure will shock those who cast doubt on the ability of those who aspire to such an ambition to deliver anything more than yet another Far Left lash-up.

    As for Rosa Luxemburg, like you I find Jon Crudass and the Compass Group’s involvement in her and Karl’s murder disgusting and have therefore decided to have nothing whatsoever to do with them.

    Mark P

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  18. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    “Jason. Its not rudeness or arrogance. You and your group are a tiny band of revolutionary socialists who have little or no faith in the virtues of either social democracy or working with its representatives. You believe any coalition-building with a group like Compass and most of the Green Party is doomed from the outset. So if you think that why on earth get involved except for motives of ‘we told you so’ variety.”

    True apart from the first sentence.

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  19. ID Avatar
    ID

    Yes, Respect was believe it or not, founded by people who wanted a new working class party. There may have been tactical differences as to how to acheive that, but that is what the aim was.

    Keep lecturing the left and the Respect membership as to why that’s utterly wrong and why trade unions, working class politics, and all things like that are utterly outdated concepts.

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  20. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    I have not once stated trade unions or working class politics are ‘utterly outdated concepts. putting words into other peoples mouths is a shoddy tactics that says much about those who indulge in it.

    On the other hand those who delude themselves that in order to found a working class party all you have to do is loudly claim that this is what are you doing are and anybody not subscribing to this particular version of class politics is middle-class/petit bourgeois/ right wing (insert as appropriate) is welcome to the debacle of No2EU and similarly ill fated efforts.

    Mark P

    Mark P

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  21. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    “On the other hand those who delude themselves that in order to found a working class party all you have to do is loudly claim that this is what are you doing are and anybody not subscribing to this particular version of class politics is middle-class/petit bourgeois/ right wing (insert as appropriate) is welcome to the debacle of No2EU and similarly ill fated efforts.”

    This is absolutely key. It’s not about not wanting a “working class party”, it’s this fetishisation, the belief that you can just declare that this or that is the new “workers party”.

    Respect was founded by a different focus to that which you state, ID – it was founded on the belief that working class people have no one to represent them in electoral politics, and it was founded to attempt to be part of providing that voice.

    Away from SWP control-freakery, there was always a hope that Respect could be part of a broad realignment of the left, which is why there were attempts to get the Greens on board. It was always designed to be broad.

    The problem with the “Workers Party” stuff is, as Mark says, that just cos you say it’s so doesn’t make it so. What use is a “Workers Party” that no one cares about and that will get nowhere (as I believe your conception won’t)?

    I want a workers’ party. I have a different idea of how to get there: I am starting from the objective conditions, which is that the left is still suffering from major defeats and has no real force in society, and from there it becomes clear that right now what is needed is a broad coalition – which means building to our right, given that we’re the best and brightest and most good-looking on the left – which, if we approach it openly and honestly, we’ll have lots of influence in and can try to win people to moving more leftwards.

    We’re in such a dire situation on the left, and there are not going to be any short-cuts to rebuilding it. We are going to need to patiently build alliances and have arguments. We’re going to have to be prepared to *lose* arguments.

    None of this stops us doing important trade union work. None of this stops us doing the hard work on the ground. We’re all after the same goal here, but I think the “Workers Party” concept is flawed precisely for what Mark says – it’s a short cut, and it ends up declaring false victories.

    For example, so much nonsense is being talked about how a militant union backed an electoral operation. But it is just not true. It was patently obvious that No2EU had no support amongst the RMT membership and that No2EU was a project of a few leadership people, and it has absolutely no base, or basis, inside the union. That’s not to say the leadership shouldn’t have done what it did, but we need to stop substituting the leadership for the membership: It is absolutely meaningless that Bob Crow and a section of the leadership backed No2EU, because it has no resonance inside the union. They’re just bureaucrats with influence in this context – and the fact that they kept such absolute control over everything (remember, they didn’t invite Respect to be a part of things – Respect was left out of things just like other organisations) should give more of an indication of where they’re really at.

    But people are treating this as if the leadership was finally moved by pressure from below, that they responded to the crisis facing their members by finally coming out and supporting a left-wing initiative.

    That’s not what’s happened, at all. And people need to be honest about it. And more than that, they have to stop pretending that those who back the “broad party” idea are somehow right wing. In fact, those who are doing their best to cause schisms over the issue are acting in a much more right-wing way, because if they can’t get what they want they cause trouble over it.

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  22. ID Avatar
    ID

    I said:

    “Yes, Respect was believe it or not, founded by people who wanted a new working class party.”

    external bulletin

    “Respect was founded by a different focus to that which you state – it was founded on the belief that working class people have no one to represent them in electoral politics, and it was founded to attempt to be part of providing that voice.”

    That’s just two formulations of the same aim.

    But external bulletin qualifies this with:

    “which means building to our right, given that we’re the best and brightest and most good-looking on the left – which, if we approach it openly and honestly, we’ll have lots of influence in and can try to win people to moving more leftwards.”

    I’m not very interested in who is ‘to our right’ or ‘to our left’ within the framework of taking steps to form a new left party. I am interesting in working with anyone that is genuinely interested in building a such a broad left party.

    But there is no evidence whatsoever that Compass is interested in doing that. They are phoneys, to the extent that they refused to nominate John McDonnell to stand for the Labour leadership and thus played the major role in ensuring Gordon Brown’s coronation.

    No doubt the likes of Mark P would say that is all to the good, since McDonnell is too much associated with outdated ideas of ‘working class’ politics and all that. Echoed by Andy Newman, who thinks John McDonnell is an ultraleft.

    But ye gods, if they can’t help McDonnell to stand against Brown, how on earth are they going to play any role in building a new left party?!!

    Forces ‘to our right’ (whatever that means) are fine providing they show signs of moving in a similar direction to ourselves. There is no evidence of that with Compass.

    I also have no problem in principle with working with genuinely left-wing, pro-working class elements in the Green Party.

    I do however, have a problem with those who claim to be ‘Green lefts’, but who put out shrill statements ‘condemning’ a major trade union for intervening in the electoral arena for the first time, as was the case with the RMT with No2EU. If they were genuinely pro-working class they should have welcomed the RMT’s initiative and sought to help make it more effective.

    That ‘condemnation’ from the Green Left was not a sign of pro-working class sentiment, but of middle class arrogance. As a knee-jerk reaction it is not unconnected to the fact that the voting base of the Green Party is the most affluent of all the political parties – in fact, according to a recent YouGov survey, more so than even the Tories! Given that electoral-sociological profile, that condemnation leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth indeed.

    It is simply wrong to go out and campaign for people characterised by such class arrogance against a bona-fide working class organisation.

    EB’s statement about the RMT is wrong also. The RMT has a mandate to engage in political activities in counterposition to Labour, decided several years ago, by its conferences and decision making bodies. If it can be legitimately criticised for anything, it is not using this mandate sooner. But to claim on the basis of some ideal standard of rank-and-file consultation that Crow has no mandate or support for what he did is absurd.

    This is indeed the kind of propaganda you might expect from Compass – the kind of thing that justifies their siding with Gordon Brown against the genuine Labour left when push comes to shove, as with the leadership election.

    Oh, and by the way, they did invite Respect ‘to be part of things’ – not right at the very beginning, but shortly after the thing was up and running we had an invitation to join the initiative. It had been made clear informally, as I understand it, that if Respect had endorsed No2EU we would have been fully represented on its leading bodies. Our then-National Secretary was already being invited to their meetings as I understand it. But the NC voted narrowly not to do so, and hence that was taken off the agenda – simply because of this desire by some for alliances with the Greens.

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  23. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “Oh, and by the way, they did invite Respect ‘to be part of things’ – not right at the very beginning, but shortly after the thing was up and running we had an invitation to join the initiative.”

    Really ID? – who wrote the invitation and when was this invitation presented to and discussed by Respect’s national council? I’m informed that no one on the NC has ever been shown any correspondence from No2EU inviting participation.

    As for your “a very nasty taste in the mouth indeed.” perhap you could try living the North West where Nick Griffin is now the MEP. Supporters of No2EU were asked not to stand so that the left could unite around the only left candidate capable of stopping Griffin. They chose not to. Had they done so they may have been able to stop the BNP. Now Griffen will get around £1.5 million over the next five years – which leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth indeed. Political choices have political consequences. Shouting ‘working class’ louder than everyone else is not a substitute for a real strategy.

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  24. ID Avatar
    ID

    Why should there be ‘correspondence’? Was everyone involved in the formation of Respect formally invited by letter to take part? Or the Socialist Alliance? Things are rarely, if ever, done that way as you well know.

    It is highly like that if Respect had endorsed No2EU, some of our East London councillors would have been on its London list. That could have happened also in the West Midlands, actually. That this did not happen was Respect’s choice, not that of No2EU.

    And the latter is a pure sectarian smear. Can you explain why out of the many tens of thousands of working class Labour voters who failed to turn out, the Greens could not win enough to their long prepared and well known campaign to outvote Griffin?

    This has something to do with their lack of appeal to the working class, I’d venture.

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  25. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Why should there be correspondence?

    Because that is how things are done between organisations – so that everyone involved can make an informed decision. That is why meetings take minutes. That is why organisations have constitutions. Writing things down is a good way of checking whether promises being made can be fulfilled or that the person making assurances has the authority to do so. I would have thought it was the basis of WORKING CLASS democracy.

    ID seems to be of the opinion that “if Respect had endorsed No2EU, some of our East London councillors would have been on its London list”

    but can provide no evidence for this.
    Afterall there is no correspondence. But as an aside I’m rather glad Respect councillors were not on a listt hat got less votes than Lindsey German. Unlike ID I’m not sure that electoral humiliation is something to aspire to.

    As for his aside about people not voting green meaning this “has something to do with their lack of appeal to the working class” Surely it says even more about the appeal of No2EU who seem to have even less appeal despite it’s “working class” leadership (socialist barristers and Liberals not withstanding)

    As for a sectarian smear – surely it is right for those who asked that No2EU consider putting the interests of “the working class” first by backing the only “working class”, socialist candidate capable of beating Griffin, to be able to point out that had these great leaders of the “working class” thrown their weight behind Cranie then we may have had a differnet result. But clearly from your socialist redoubt of Southwark perhaps the victory of the BNP doesn’t look so grim.

    To point out a political consequence is not to make a smear – it is simply to point out that people should be aware of how their decisions can affect the bigger picture – even when their own influence is usually utterly marginal.

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  26. ID Avatar
    ID

    So show me the detailed correspondence regarding the formation of the Socalist Alliance, the formation of Respect, etc. You can’t – often things are done verbally, in meetings, etc.

    Well, its very interesting that TLC is “glad” that our councillors were invisible to the electorate in London in the Euro elections. Better that than stand on a slate with Bob Crow and the convenor of Visteon’s occupied Enfield plant, eh?

    “As for a sectarian smear – surely it is right for those who asked that No2EU consider putting the interests of “the working class” first by backing the only “working class”, socialist candidate capable of beating Griffin,”

    Really? By supporting a party whose voter median income is higher than the Tories? One of whose leading MEP’s says that she is equally opposed to politics being dominated by big business and trade unions! How is that ‘putting the interests of the working class first’?

    No one claimed that the No2EU result was other than fairly weak, as befitted an initiative that few people had heard of and had far too little time to establish any kind of name or reputation.

    That’s no reason to support a non-working class party against it, however. You have to start somewhere.

    Whereas the Greens are established, and many know where they stand. Their failure to appeal to working class people has to do with their middle class politics. They simply do not appeal to working class people.

    And as for the latter remark, we have a BNP arsehole in the London assembly. And supporting the Greens is no more useful in dealing with that that it is in the North West.

    Its worth pointing out that while the Greens have the highest voter median income of all the significant political parties, the BNP have the lowest. That says something about class. And it says something about the complete ineffectiveness of supporting the Greens in countering the influence of the BNP in the most deprived and alienated sections of the white working class.

    The Greens live in a different world.

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  27. Andy Newman Avatar
    Andy Newman

    ID : “The Greens live in a different world.”

    Says an ex member of the spaticist league, and Weekly Worker.

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  28. Andy Newman Avatar
    Andy Newman

    Ok ID.

    Let us look at your startegic options here.

    You decry that Respect is going in the wrong direction, however the wrong direction seems to be backed by the party’s MP, the party leader, the members of the party who delivered Viva palestina, all the councollirs, and all the branches where respect has mass electoral support.

    What ismore there seems to be a profound political difference behind the different perspective.

    On your side, you have Soutwark Respect branch, who we learn considers 11 people to be a well attended meeting, and has almost zero footprint in electoral politics. You have the support of a few other scattered individuals around the country.

    You do have a disproportionate level of support on the NC, which says more about the deficiencies of the conference that elected the NC than representig a genuine mandate. Even if you win votes at meetings, do you think you can force the rest of us to toe your political line, which we profoundly disagree with?

    that is not the way politics works.

    Or do you think that you and Southwark Respect are the true respect, and Salma yaqoob, George galloway should submit to your leadership?

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  29. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “Its worth pointing out that while the Greens have the highest voter median income of all the significant political parties, the BNP have the lowest. That says something about class.”

    ID should research his statistics before he bandies these figures about. According to the YouGov poll , which interviewed 32000 voters, BNP voters have the same annual median family income as Labour and UKIP at £27,000. Tory voters have the highest at £33,000 and the Greens have £32,000. But as for the poorest – the Greens have exactly the same number of voters (9%) below £10,000 as the BNP, UKIP, LIb-Dems.

    A deeper analysis of the figures would suggest that income has very little to do with voting patterns nowadays – with the Greens, Labour and BNP all having almost identical support from those earning £40,000-£50,000 per household per year( Greens 13%, BNP 12%). It is the Tories that consistently have the highest income but even that is marginal.

    It is the very small number of voters with incomes about £50,000 per annum which skews the overall (median) figures for the Tories and the Greens but even so 5% of BNP voters earn over £70,000 per year compared to 8% of Green voters. Hardly a gaping wealth gap.

    More significant are other factors – membership of unions is highest amongst Labour and Green voters but lowest amongst Tories, then BNP and UKIP. BNP voters are least likely to be members of clubs, assocaiations, sports groups, or other organsiations, Green voters are most likely.

    BNP voters are almost twice as likely to be men than women.

    Perhaps the source of information is more important than income. BNP voters are least likely to listen to politics on the radio but most likely to visit a party website. BNP voters are most likely to read the SUN, Star, Mail and Express but don’t read the Guardian. Green voters are the most likely not to read any newspaper at all.

    Green voters are most likely to have been engaged in protest marches, boycotts or campaigns.

    In jobs the Greens have the same percentage as the BNP who have never worked. The Greens have the highest percentage of jobs requiring a degree but the BNP (along with UKIP) have the highest number of supervisors and foremen amongst their voters. While the BNP haver the lowest number of managers and senior adminsitrators amongst their voters the second lowest party is the Greens

    Voting intensions are much more complex than the stark ‘class’ lines being drawn by ID. We know in Burnley that the BNP first did well in the leafy villages of Clivager not in the inner city areas. Things are now changing but a simple BNP=poor, working class, Greens= wealthy, middle class argument does nothing but cloud the waters. Claims that the Greens ‘live in a different world’ is simply nonsense.

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  30. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Andy says “the wrong direction seems to be backed by the party’s MP, the party leader, the members of the party who delivered Viva palestina, all the councollirs, and all the branches where respect has mass electoral support.”.

    One of GG’s many admirable qualities is the way he refuses to yield to the temptation to impose his views on either the national organisation or his constituency party. To my certain knowledge there has been no discussion among the membership of Respect in Birmingham or Tower Hamlets about alternative strategic approaches.

    While it’s true that only 200 or so members attended the conference last year the majority of them endorsed a position which made no mention of the Compass Group or any other Blair friendly trends. Those present , including councillors, supported the direction articulated by Nick Wrack. Here’s hoping we are not getting to a position where just because someone has been elected to a council or a parliament their view counts more than everybody else put together.

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  31. charliemarks Avatar
    charliemarks

    I wouldn’t describe Compass as Blair-friendly, Liam. No doubt “Doctor” Cruddas bigs up 1997 era New Labour, but only in terms of its broad coalition of support – and he directs this message towards Labour’s current leadership and dominant tendency to remind them that they need their traditional base of support.

    Good to hear John McDonnell sounding conciliatory about Compass, recently.

    We can’t afford not to talk to one another.

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  32. ID Avatar
    ID

    Well, if held Andy Newman’s views on the need to defend Gordon Brown, and on the “excellent” role of Brown and Darling in bailing out the banks last autumn, and was as supportive of Compass as Andy Newman is, I would simply join the Labour Party.

    I’m sure its only a matter of time before that happens. I defended Respect as a left-wing project for years against people like him prior to 2007, and guess what, I’m still doing the same now. I was campaigning for Respect in quite a few elections, both in East and South London when Andy’s main activity was conducting the Respect-bashing chorus on his blog. Not much changes in content, it seems, but the forms are in a bit of flux.

    As for the ‘electoral political footprint’, I wonder what Andy’s is in Swindon? Ours includes getting nearly 12% of the vote in our first council ward election three years ago. Our council elections are once every four years.

    We’re standing in the General Election next year, against the same Harriet Harman who was one of the honoured guests at the Compass conference. What is Andy Newman’s ‘electoral footprint’? I doubt he will have one – you don’t get accepted into Labour membership very easily if you stand against it in elections.

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  33. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Stuart,

    Try keep up. There is no contradiction between saying RESPECT is committed to working with the broad left and dismissing inferences about backroom electoral pacts and the like as the conspiratorial lunacy that it is.

    Respect seeks to work in a way that advances the broad left, and that includes left Labour MP’s, the Greens and others including any serious far left initiatives. Our actions in the NW and WM in seeking to unify the anti-fascist response were exemplary in this regard and indicative of a general approach.

    By contrast, Ian Donovan and a handful of others biding time in Respect before the next stop on their political merry-go-round, are deeply hostile to this, all pious and irrelevant in their self-righteousness about being the voice of the ‘real left’. It is simply not possible to take seriously someone who dismisses socialists like Peter Creanie and Derek Wall as ‘expressions of middle class hostility to independent working class politics’. I did not realize Ian had been a member of those nutty sects the Sparts and Weekly Worker, but it sure does explain a lot.

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  34. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Ger,

    I do wonder if part of the differences inside Respect are partly rooted in different regional realities. In south London there’s little sign of Compass, other than their office by Lambeth Palace. It’s no really in the business of building in the CLPs or unions. It’s not visible. The Greens are visible but generally their conceptions are either deeply electorialist or they orient on their own issues, such as the Transition Towns initiatives, rather than starting from daily issues.

    There’s a real and rich discussion to be had about this and, clearly, the focus on the pre-existing, organised, hard left in the union and political parties can blinker us from the wider challenge of helping the working class to find its own voice. But that has to be on building a culture self-activity as much as it does from a focus on the pre-existing ‘broad’ left. In the West Midlands and North West we say how tactical voting by anti-racists could have prevented the BNP taking a seat. But that was a battle of ideas inside the anti0racist community. What it did not do was to take a positive, politicaly working-class, alternative to working people. That, in a very modest way, is what Southwalk Respect’s campaign for No2EU was able to do.

    Your theme about ‘on the way out’, ‘biding time’, ‘Sparts’ and so on is mistaken. It’s just an ad hominen attack, and it’s not in the slightest bit on the mark and doesn’t help you to focus on, and win, the strategic discussion.

    Duncan.

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  35. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    I don’t think regional realities have much to do with it, Duncan. Not only is there no sign of Compass in Birmingham, there is no sign of a Labour left at all! Plus, the Greens are very weak. The issue here is one of approach. Southwark, and the absolute contempt they have expressed towards working with anyone other than a narrow sliver of the left, have exposed their own infantile ultra-leftism. There is simply no other term that best describes it. And we will give no quarter to it.

    Inside RESPECT, the strategic argument is won. It is shared by George, Salma, Alan and all the key figures in the leadership. And it was won without having to flex any muscle. Already with a new national secretary there is a new verve and focus about our work, a new commitment towards solidifying democratic structures and increasing membership, drawing on a practice in the NW of Palestine solidarity work, general coalition building and party building that is a model to us all. RESPECT is getting its groove back. Over the next few weeks we expect over 50,000 of our new 8 page broadsheets to be delivered door-to-door for example in some of our key areas.

    While I completely agree with you on a political orientation ‘that has to be on building a culture of self-activity as much as it does from a focus on the pre-existing ‘broad’ left’, I don’t agree with you that there was anything positive in either the No2EU campaign or Southwark’s involvement in it.

    Leaving aside its poor politics, it’s vote in London was pitiful, worse than Lindsey German’s who can at least say her vote was a self-conscious left-wing one, which No2EU’s certainly was not. More generally, if I had been in the RMT I would have strongly opposed their decision to stand candidates at all for the simple reason it will invariably piss away union funds. A better use of members money would have been to support those candidates across the left with a realistic chance of winning who would best advance union interests.

    When I heard this initiative first discussed at a RESPECT NC it supporters displayed remarkable delusions about their prospects. They had hugely exaggerated perspectives about what the RMT represented and an underestimation of the actual difficulties in contesting elections for new political entities. These difficulties will be even greater in a General Election run under the brutal first-past-the-post system. I predicted at the time that No2EU would lose their deposits by a good distance and I was right.

    Rather than this experience strengthen the hands of those who want to pursue this tactic inside any union, I suspect it will undermine them considerably.

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  36. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “But that was a battle of ideas inside the anti0racist community. What it did not do was to take a positive, politicaly working-class, alternative to working people. That, in a very modest way, is what Southwalk Respect’s campaign for No2EU was able to do.”

    Duncan – could you explain this further. How do you think that Respect’s activity in the North West was simply an argument within the ‘anti-racist community’ – whatever that is. What was specifically ‘politically working class’ (again please explain) in Southwark’s literature and campaigning that was absent from that in Manchester or Rochdale?

    If this debate is to mean something we need to be clear about the terminology we are using. Maybe I’m stupid but I just don’t get what was so impressive about the No2EU campaign – whether in Southwark or elsewhere. That’s not to denigrate the people involved or question their commitment but since it is repeatedly being raised as a better way of doing things than for example Manchester Respect’s campaign in support of Peter Cranie I’d like to know a) in what ways was it superior and b) why you think it did so badly (after all there was endless debate about whether No2EU would take up their seats – so apparently those involved must have thought they had a good chance of winning

    We need a proper debate over this and simply adding the words ‘working class’ over and over again to a debate doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, I’m afraid.

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  37. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Lenin on Infantile Leftism;

    “Criticism — the most keen, ruthless and uncompromising criticism—should be directed, not against parliamentarianism or parliamentary activities, but against those leaders who are unable—and still more against those who are unwilling — to utilise parliamentary elections and the parliamentary rostrum in a revolutionary and communist manner.”

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm

    Surely the most misrepresented pamphlet of all time?

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  38. ID Avatar
    ID

    But of course, according to Andy Newman, echoed by Ger Francis presumably, John McDonnell is an infantile ultra-leftist. No doubt they think that Dave Nellist, Bob Crow, Rob Griffiths, Tony Benn, and everyone else involved in or supportive of No2EU, are all infantile ultra-leftists as well.

    After all, for all the ‘ultra-left’ baiting going on above, when you strip away the bullshit, I am being baited as an ‘ultra-left’ for wanting to support a political initative of the RMT (with the CPB and SP), instead of supporting the Green Party, which is simply not a working class party and doesn’t actually claim to be one (if it did start making such claims, it would lose rather a lot of its members, who didn’t join it on that basis at all!).

    Well, if those who initated No2EU are ‘ultra-lefts’, then I am proud to be an ‘ultra-left’. You’ll have a hard job convincing anyone with any political honesty that No2EU is some kind of initiative of ultra-left grouping. Since every grouping you can name that might conceiveably come under that heading are far too ‘pure’ (that is, megalomaniacally stupid and lacking elementary understanding of the dynamics of working class political struggles) to touch it with a barge pole.

    You can increase the volume of your denunciation of ‘ultra-leftism’ to the n-th degree. It won’t obscure for one moment that the people who you are denouncing as ‘ultra-left’ are the mainstream of working class left-reformism in the British labour movement.

    The class trajectory of those who make such arguments is not very hard to spot.

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  39. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Ian Donovan tries to misrepresent my comments and take cover behind Tony Benn et al. Pathetic. My comments are clearly directed at him and his Southwark pals, I made no reference to John Mc Donnell, Bob Crow or anybody else. His views on the Green left alone, whom he dismiss as ‘expressions of middle class hostility to independent working class politics’ is simply infantile ultra leftism. He is proud to describe himself such. No surprise there. And I am proud to say that RESPECT will have no truck with his kind of nonsense.

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  40. ID Avatar
    ID

    As for TLC’s use of statistics to prove that there is no significant class difference between the social base of the different political parties, and therefore the Greens (or even the Tories) are just as ‘working class’ as anyone else, he manages to ‘prove’ things that are completely at odds with the experience of anyone who knows where the BNP has made gains.

    I quoted from memory the wrong statistics, thereby proving that I’m not as slick in manipulating statistics as some. The relevant statistic I ought to have dug out properly shows that the percentage of those supporting the Greens who belong to social grade ABC1 – ie. 64% – is the highest of all the main parties – higher in fact than the Tories whose percentage is 60%. ABC1 is the classification of people by occupation as higher paid, professional and managerial.

    Conversely, the percentage of those who support the Greens who are in social grade C2DE – which generally describes lower paid, manual workers – is the lowest of all the political parties – 36%.

    For the BNP, on the other hand, the percentage in social grade ABC1 is 39% – the lowest of all the parties surveyed. and the percentage in social grade C2DE is 61% – the highest of those parties surveyed.

    Those are the most stark and clear statistics in the YouGov survey. I apologise for quoting in a garbled manner what I should have done more carefully earlier. Just shows that quoting from memory when in a hurry to post doesn’t always bring the best results.

    But that just underlines my point again about the class difference between the Greens’ and the BNP’s social base.

    The Green Party does not generally appeal to the working class. I don’t think it appeals to ethnic minority workers that much either, but it certainly doesn’t appeal to the white working class. It is not a new formation that no-one has heard of, it is something that has been around for many years and is well known to voters of all classes and creeds.

    In order to undermine the potential influence of the BNP among an alienated section of white working class voters, it is necessary to undermine this racist poisoning of a section of our class with an appeal to class interest and class politics.

    Those who denounce this elementary understanding as ‘ultra-left’ are promoting bourgeois politics.

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  41. ID Avatar
    ID

    The problem with Ger’s comment is that he hasn’t demonstrated my promoting any other agenda than unity with Bob Crow, Dave Nellist et al. If he can’t demonstrate my promoting anything other than this (and he can’t), then all he is implicitly doing is attacking those I am promoting unity with as ‘ultra-left’.

    He can go on about my political history till he is blue in the face. That would be as preposterous as my accusing him of promoting the political agenda of the SWP on the basis of his long time membership of that organisation.

    Unless he can demonstrate that I am promoting the agenda of some ‘ultra-left’ group – and he can’t because no such group will touch No2EU with a barge pole, then he can’t hide the fact that he is denouncing me as an ‘ultra-left’ simply for insisting that we need unity with other working class forces in the mainstream labour movement.

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  42. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    As an outsider looking in on Respect it appears the picture is pretty complicated;

    On the right you have Ger Francis, Andy Newman, GG, Salma Yaqoob, Mark P. They want a lash up with Compass and an electoral alliance with the Greens. They don’t seem to have realised these propositions are mutually incompatible. So they’ll just end up supporting New Labour. Albeit guilty New Labour.

    After that categories of Left and Right are confused;

    There’s no the no2eu wing, which is Matt Wrack (if that’s the right one, always getting them two mixed up) some of the ISG and a few others. Where that goes is unclear but it basically depends on whether a new coalition with Crow, the CPB and SP emerges.

    There’s the Green left wing, basically those in the North West. Don’t know what they’ll do, but maybe join the Greens? They certainly have no stomach for New Labour and Compass whatever Ger F and the rest hope.

    Either way its a mess. Who’s running the book on whether Respect’ll last the year?

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  43. ID Avatar
    ID

    “Inside RESPECT, the strategic argument is won. It is shared by George, Salma, Alan …”

    Is it really true, incidentally, that Alan Thornett shares the strategic perspectives that Ger outlines, of support for Compass and the Greens, and an anathema on those who want to link up with Bob Crow etc?

    Maybe the ISG membership should be told if this is true or not, by Alan himself?

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  44. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    ID having mis-quoted the statistics now moves the goal posts and uses the almost useless ABC1 -C2DE categories so loved of sociologists but pretty meaningless to those with a Marxist understanding of class – one I would have thought ID was much more in favour of.

    You see ABC1 covers a range of careers including the majority (at least 5 of the 8) candidates for No2EU in London where there were two lawyers and a professor on the list. Now ID will no doubt counter that it is politics that count – not the jobs (or indeed class position) of the candidates.

    To which we can only reply – exactly.

    We need to loo much more closely at the reasons people voted BNP or Green or continue to vote Labour. Dividing the entire country into just two groups does not seem to me to be particularly useful.

    “The Green Party does not generally appeal to the working class. I don’t think it appeals to ethnic minority workers that much either, but it certainly doesn’t appeal to the white working class.”

    But it has a far greater appeal in all those groups than No2EU. And I suspect if they keep the ridiculous name that will always remain the same – however often they stand in Euro elections.

    But really this is all so much nonsense because ID wants Respect to form some sort of new party with the members of No2EU but the No2EU constituents don’t want one.

    Arguing whether the Green Party appeals to some groups or not should be somewhat tempered by the fact that they currently appeal to more than Respect despite having policies almost identical on at least 80% of issues. Surely working together within the totality of the left – up to and including backing other party candidates is exactly what Respect was set up to do. That is why the Greens were asked to join at the start. I’m not sure we wanted them in just so that we could tell how middle class we thought they were. No, the idea was to advance the totality of the left – which means appealing to a broad section of society.

    Attacking a party that secured a large % of votes from ABC1s as blanket ‘middle class’ somewhat misses the fact that it includes low paid civil servants, most local government unison members, teachers, etc. Does that really advance the the left and the working class – unless your definition of class really is one in which the only true workers are those that wear flat caps and race whippets?

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  45. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    BillJ. Your characterisations of ‘right and ‘left in Respect are based as usual on the particular experience of being a member of a splitner group of a tiny far left group whose main claim to fame is deluding itself it is in pole position to form a Fifth International.

    The ‘left’ as you describe it are ater a new Workers Party, as this will only happen if a section of the RMT ladership decide to bankroll it, the SP and CPB staff it, and the SWP desperate to jump aboard are perhaps allowed a bit part is this why its left?

    as for myself, I cannot speak for others, I have abslutely no intention of joining the Labour Party. I have never been a member and whener I can I don;t vote Labour either. Likewise while I cannot speak for others I have no intention of joining the Greens either. I often vote for them but my politicak identity cannot be encompassed simply by ‘green’ and they more than enought faults of their own not to attract me. I do however believe in a plural left in which Compass, the greens, Respect and many others would co-operate with one another.A plural left is anything but plural if tiny far left groups prediminate, I look forwrd to them boogering up the new workers party and leaving the plural left alone, if they do get involved they will be such a small element to be insignificant, as fits their political status and irrelevance, anything else and the plural left has failed. If that makes me ‘right win’ I’m happy enough with the label, I;d call it being interested in an effective left though, not one that impresses no one else except itself.

    Mark P

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  46. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “Who’s running the book on whether Respect’ll last the year?”

    Why don’t you open one Bill. You’ve been predicting our demise for some time so I’m sure you’ll give good odds. I’ll have £10 on us still being here 12 months from now.

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  47. ID Avatar
    ID

    So these occupational categories mean nothing, eh? Funny how the differences are so marked between the parties, say between the Tories and the BNP, for instance, or between Tories and Labour for that matter. And funny how this matches up not only what is known about the class origins of the Labour and Conservative Parties, but also with the experience of everyone who is aware that the BNP are capitalising on alienation of a significant minority of working class people who feel they have been abandoned by Labour.

    Actually, no, the sociological position of the candidates is not decisive in terms of which class they aim to appeal to. If they were Marx and Engels would have been in trouble – Marx was an academic and Engels a factory-owner.

    But the sociological character of those to whom a party appeals is a good indication of its class character.

    You’ll get no argument from me about the flawed name No2EU had as one key reason for its lowish vote. You are missing the point in making this an issue, I am not slagging of the Greens in the same way as you are doing with No2EU, attacking them for being ineffective in going after their core constituency.

    My point is that you have misjudged the nature of the Greens’ core consituency – they do not aim to appeal to working people on a class basis and their prime appeal is to a better-off layer. As is also true of the Liberal Democrats. Where they do have support among workers they are fewer and it is not on a class basis.

    The Greens did not have any of the disadvantages you point to for No2eU and still many tens of thousands of ex-Labour voters did not see them as an alternative.

    Why should working class voters who see their interests as being abandoned by Labour look to a party that seems to appeal to people with a higher social/class status than the bulk of the working class?

    This is a political question and a political argument that you are trivialising with silly jibes at the weaknesses of No2EU, which are irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

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  48. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Yes I’m in love with the Fifth International!

    From what I can gather then from Mark P, he’s not actually in favour of anything. But he’s particularly not in favour of a new party. So that’s constructive.

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  49. charliemarks Avatar
    charliemarks

    Perhaps the reason why the greens don’t have a broader working class vote is because we have been pursuing a fragmentary approach to politics?

    Most Greens would find it acceptable for their party to stand aside in areas where the party is weak and another radical party is strong.

    It would make a lot of sense for the RMT and PCS to back the Greens and Respect, as well as maintaining links with the Labour left – because all support renationalisation of the railways, an end to privatisation, and a restoration of workers rights.

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  50. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    No ID, the occupational categories are pretty meaningless when you are trying to divide the entire country into just two categories. One of those categories includes the directores of the top companies, MPs, judges AND low paid civil servants, local government clerical workers, etc. The other category includes the unemployed, manual workers AND skilled self-employed businessmen.

    If you really want to have a sociological debate about the basis of BNP support and that of the Greens you need to have a little more detail, don’t you think. Hence the question of pay is more helpful then ABC1s vs C2DEs

    The real question here is actually being somewhat lost.

    Your main point seems to be that the Green Party does not apepal to the same people as the BNP does. When what a surprise. The BNP generally appeals to people who hold much more racist ideas than society as a whole. The Green Party appeals to those who one the whole are less racist.

    So what. We all knew that. we were trying to shift some people who previously had voted labour but were going to stay at home to vote for the best candidate to stop the BNP.

    Why? because in the end in the NW we were faced with a task of stopping the BNP leader becoming an MEP. A position much more significant that that of a Members fom the London assembly.

    The only three parties with a chance of doing this were UKIP, Labour and the Green Party.

    In those circumstances I was proud that Respect backed the most progressive of the three. You on the other hand backed an organisation that had no chance of stopping the BNP. Your choice entirely but thankfully Respect in the North West didn’t follow your lead.

    But No2EU did have a role to play in the NW. But you seem to want to hide all the weaknesses of No2EU behind the fact of the Green Party’s middle class nature.

    This is not trivialising this debate. You have in fact dragged it away from a tactical decision to back the best placed progressive candidate to stop the BNP into one about some principal’s of working class politics – the basis of which you seem unable to elaborate on. For you it’s not the candidate but the class appeal that seems to be the most important. I’d have thought it was the political programme, myself.

    The Greens didn’t win – but you can’t simply hide behind the fact that No2EU was young and new to explain away it’s disasterous vote. You thought this was the best vehicle to stop the BNP and take forward the left as a whole.

    But it was an electoral flop and will take the ‘left of labour’ movement backwards not forwards unless as those behind it reacognise their errors – blaming the Green party for being too middle class seems to me to be your (and the SPs) way of avoiding facing up to some very harsh facts.

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  51. Andy Newman Avatar
    Andy Newman

    TLC:

    In those circumstances I was proud that Respect backed the most progressive of the three. You on the other hand backed an organisation that had no chance of stopping the BNP. Your choice entirely but thankfully Respect in the North West didn’t follow your lead.

    The reality is actually worse, in that NO2EU specifically concentrated their campaigning effort into the North West, a decision seemingly imposed upon NO2EU by Alex Gordon and Bob Crow, and to which no-one publically dissented.

    Unless NO2EU thouught that all their votes would come from people who would not otherwise have voted, or that they would take most of their votes from the BNP, then the nature of thier intervention would inevitable take votes from UKIP, labour and perhaos the Greens, and therefore make a BNP victry more likely.

    Given that NO2EU only sent out a leaflet in three euro-constiteunces, can its supporters justify the decision that two of those constituenecies were ones with the highest risk of BNP victory?

    How was that not reckless? If NO2EU is genuinly such a good, democratic foundation on which to build, then how come no one within NO2EU publicaly disagreed with this prioritisation?

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