Comrade Tami has posted her resignation from Socialist Resistance on her blog. She is politically and factually wrong on most points. This is a quick reply. Text in italics is from her statement.

Members of SR have at various times defended the behaviour of George Galloway, refused to oppose his support for Blair to be blown up by suicide bomb and most recently, refused to recognise the absolutely corrupt nature of the organisation following the candidate selection meetings in Birmingham.

When George Galloway has done things worth defending we have done so. Nobody who had been involved for any length of in Respect would say that we have uncritically defended him. In Tower Hamlets I repeatedly tried to get Labour Movement methods of accountability introduced. In the National Council SR supporters were prominent in attempts to get a discussion of Big Brother and again were constantly raising the accountability issue. Galloway never advocated using suicide bombing.
As for the Birmingham selection process Labour Party constituencies up and down the country have known similar shenanigans. The difference is that they don’t always get reported in the left press and that Labour’s apparatus is free to drop and impose candidates pretty much at will.

Every time evidence presents itself as clearly as possible that Respect is going nowhere, SR comrades simply try to explain it away and claim that more work needs to be done to improve Respect.

That’s a bit rich from someone about to join the Labour Party. Respect haven’t voted for any wars, started any wars, sold off any public services, deported any asylum seekers, sold any peerages, facilitated bribing the Saudi Royal family, filled any prisons with the illiterate and the mentally ill. Labour has long since demonstrated its rottenness. The problems of Respect, and they are so many I chose to leave it, are tiny compared to the opportunist, careerist morass that Labour is.

Further, I have become convinced that Respect is not a socialist organisation. It is not based in the working class and gears its ideas and propaganda towards the anti-war movement alone.

Most socialist organisations in Britain made some sort of accomodation to British imperialism. One of Respect’s distinguishing features is that it has been consistently anti-imperialist. Where there have been strikes and industrial action Respect has been present and supportive. When Labour MPs were scabbing on the firefighters Galloway was speaking at meeting in support of them. Every single struggle against neo-liberalism has engaged Respect members in their areas, often in direct opposition to sell-offs and cuts by Labour councils.

Many of the recent half-hearted attempts by Respect to get trade unionists involved, such as the November trade union conference, come too little and too late. Given the unpopularity of Blair, any decent alternative to New Labour should be recruiting people by the handful – but this simply has not occurred.

This is undeniable. It is the organisation’s single biggest weakness and contributed to me leaving. This has also been a constant theme in what SR has said and written about the organisation. But the level of class struggle in Britain is at an historic low. It’s hard to point to any organisation which is growing significantly.

Increasingly, an emphasis has been placed on “getting elected” and members of SR have fallen into this trap no matter how rubbish the positions of the candidates. Most recently with the fiasco in Birmingham, one need only read the interview with the Respect candidate there to see that he has no class consciousness and may or may not have a political consciousness at all.

Have some Respect candidates fought and won on a clientalist basis? Absolutely. So have many Labour and Lib-Dem candidates. In Newham the Irish Catholic vote used to be delivered to a Freemason dominated Labour council on the basis of planning permissions and drinks licenses. That was at the time of a strong Bennite left in the area. This is what sometimes happens in organisations that are not entirely comprised of aspirant Bolsheviks. Read what most Labour councillors have to say about anything these days and they sound more like personnel managers than politicians.

Respect has had a very bad record on being honest and open about defending LGBT rights and a woman’s right to choose (abortion, not the hijab). Their upcoming women’s conference is supposed to be addressing these issues and things like the problem with “raunch culture” while their members have handed out leaflets outside mosques advocating the shutting down of strip clubs on a moral basis and Galloway called for those using the clubs to be publicly “named and shamed”.

Again nothing happens in a vacuum. A lot of what used to comprise the women’s and LGBT movements have become institutionalised and play a very small role in active politics. That and the weight of socially conservative Respect members has meant that it has been less forthright on these issues than it should have been. But remember it was SR supporters who had a fight around the issues of abortion and LGBT rights inside Respect

While the view of Respect has changed to being marginally more critical among the majority of the supporters of SR since I have been involved, it remains the case that this is a fundamental and essential campaign of the organisation and will continue to be for some time to come.

This is inaccurate. Where it is possible to work prooductively inside Respect comrades continue to. Many SR supporters are not able to attend Respect meetings because their Respect branch ceased functioning. Others have left. Others have downgraded their activity in it but remain members in anticipation of positive developments. Rather we have started shifting the focus of our activity to environmental issues, anti-imperialism and internationalism. Coming months will see us develop more fully the work that we have started on ecosocialism because we are convinced that meeting the challenge that capitalism poses to humanity in the next years will help re-define socialism in the twenty first century.

I do think that whatever comes next for the British left must be based in or around and not outside of the trade union movement. Until the LP decisively breaks the trade union link and until much more of the working class stops thinking of it as their party, I believe it is where socialists should be – not simply practicing “entryism” but participating fully in the party and supporting left MPs and campaigns of the left and fervently opposing Blairism and Brownism.

Further, I have been studying quite a bit in my British History course about the origins and history of the Labour Party and despite the New Labour leadership which is like a cancerous growth feeding off of the good will of the working class, it is evident to me that this is still the party of our class.

…still has a number of MPs who are excellent social activists and fighters who are opposed to the war and racism and for social justice.

Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and others hold political views much closer to my own and have a much clearer record of defending women’s rights, LGBT rights, workers’ rights and immigrant rights than any current Respect politician I can think of.I remain strongly committed to left unity, which is one of the most important things that I believe must happen in the future if progress is to be made.

The trouble is that Jeremy and John are the only two really decent Labour MPs anyone can think of anymore. On top of that after ten years of Labour in power not one MP from the new intakes has shown themselves to be much better t
han a gutless pro-war imperialist. Socialist Resistance was established on the basis that social democracy has begun losing its grip on the most advanced sections of the working class, that it was transforming into an actively neo-liberal organisation and that the union bureacracy are its accomplices in this. Nothing that Tami has said contradicts these assertions. Socialist Resistance will continue to be the flagship paper for socialists in Britain who want to see a class struggle, socialist, anti-imperialist, democratic mass party to break the hold of New Labour over the British working class.

30 responses to “Wrong on most points Tami”

  1. But Liam, Tami has made the right judgement by joining the LP precisely that is where the fight is. The LP has not broken with the labour movement and socialists should push the bureaucracy as far we can to expose the contradictions which exist. SR should get out of Respect as fast as they can as what exactly is being achieved? The fact that so many disillusioned socialists are not flocking to an organisation like Respect is obv.And I have to say that my old comrades from the ISG made a grave strategical error by leaving the LP for SA and later Respect. Both projects were/are doomed as well, esp. Respect, as once you move away from the LP you spiral away at great speed from the Labour movement. Yes, the LP is not a pretty option but how do you confront the pro-war, pro-imperialism and neo-liberalism of New Labour? By being inside the LP… It is not enough being in the trade union movement you also have to confront the politics and that means being in the LP.”Again nothing happens in a vacuum. A lot of what used to comprise the women’s and LGBT movements have become institutionalised and play a very small role in active politics. That and the weight of socially conservative Respect members has meant that it has been less forthright on these issues than it should have been.”Where is your evidence that women and lesbian and gay activists r playing a small part in politics? If that is the case, then ask yourself why. Maybe one answer is that the Left is and has been weak on these issues and we have to constantly argue to put these bleeding obv. demands on the table. And now with Respect you are in fact capitulating to the conservatism and selling women and lesbians and gay men out by ditching those demands. That will precisely demoralise and alienate these layers of activists.These demands should be integral to fighting for socialism. Ah, i forgot, Respect isn’t a socialist org as it is a cross-class alliance (and it is rich you criticise the LP!!)based on communal politics.That fact that SR members had to fight around, well basic demands like a woman’s right to choose and lesbian and gay rights is frankly… depressing…To put it simply SR should get the hell of Respect and re-join the LP… Well, it can’t be any worse than Respect, can it…..

    Like

  2. Oh and I have been having the same debate/arguments on the Socialist Unity blog (and I am in a minority of one btw….)

    Like

  3. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Is it just me, or is this argument reminiscent of all those Irish socialists who reckoned the real fight was inside Sinn Fein?And we know what happened to them…

    Like

  4. I am finding this al abit bizarre.Tami did stand out a litle in SR beacuse she could see that the emporer had no clothes,but then she has totally failed to distinguish betwen appearance and reality with the Labour party.Precisely becasue the LP has had a legacy of connection with the unions and progressive politics, then there will always be things you can point to that illustrate that historical link.But the trajectory has been away from that. And the victroyr of neo-liberalism and carrerism has been overwhelming in the LP.In tami’s case I note that she says a number of the specifically inaccurate things about Galloway and Resepct, which rather undermine her arguments.And Louise, nothiong you have siad here or at SU blog go beyond just assertion. You say: “you also have to confront the politics and that means being in the LP.”Why does it mean being in the LP?there is a phenomenion of a very small nukber of individuals jointing the LP over the McDonnell campign, I suspect that rhuis says as much about the politicall evolution of the individuals concerned as it does of the objective political situation.

    Like

  5. AN – Which things in particular did I say about Respect that were inaccurate in your view?

    Like

  6. Also AN – I think we all recognise that New Labour is currently in charge of the LP – but that isn’t the point. The point is that while there isn’t another broad mass left organisation in existence, I’d rather be where the trade union activists are – and that’s in the McDonnell campaign and whether you like it or not – the Labour Party.Unions who have disaffiliated like the FBU are now finding themselves at a disadvantage precisely because they are outside of the LP when there is a leadership fight to be had with a candidate that they support. To me this is evidence that it’s where people should be at the moment. Any new group will necessarily involve these people. Until there is a new organisation, I’ll work with them where they are – and where the majority of the British working class still align themselves.

    Like

  7. This really is an open goal. Let me begin:Respect haven’t voted for any wars,Nope, your cowardice has seen to that. Pro-Milosevic, pro-Taleban, pro-Saddam.started any wars,Respect wouldn’t even have had the balls to take on Hitler. Shame, shame, …sold off any public services,Your point being?deported any asylum seekers,Of course not, you’d welcome Osama Bin Laden with open arms if he were to claim asylum.sold any peerages,You wanna check your facts on this. No one has been convicted of anything. This is a democracy, not a Ba’athist dictatorship.facilitated bribing the Saudi Royal family,Oh, no, your hero’s only gone and saluted the “courage, strength and indefatigability” of one of the most evil men ever to have walked the Earth. Nice!filled any prisons with the illiterate and the mentally ill.You can’t really be serious? Letting crooks off because they can’t read???Labour has long since demonstrated its rottenness.Blah …The problems of Respect, and they are so many I chose to leave it, are tiny… blah …compared to the opportunist, careerist morass that Labour is.… blah!The trouble is that Jeremy [Corbyn] and John [McDonnell] are the only two really decent Labour MPs anyone can think of anymore.Kind of proves my point, doesn’t it? The fact a dyed-in-the-wool Gallowayite like yourself describes two of the worst Labour MPs in history as “the only two really decent Labour MPs anyone can think of” backs up all I’ve been saying ever since the scummy man declared he’d be standing.On top of that after ten years of Labour in power not one MP from the new intakes has shown themselves to be much better than a gutless pro-war imperialist.Gutless? I’d define gutless as being in hoc to one of the worst regimes in history. You have shown yourself to be the very definition of a gutless, spineless coward. Always choosing the side of wrong over right, dictatorship over democracy, tyranny over freedom, terrorism over liberty.You refuse to condemn, much less take action, over men like Saddam, organisations like Al-Qaeda and terrorists the like of which are operating in Iraq, killing thousands of innocent Iraqis and coalition forces – you choose instead to condemn and describe as murderers the democratically elected Governments in London and Washington.”Respect” will never, ever stand up for good; it will forever be in awe of the agents of evil.

    Like

  8. What does Tami mean fully participate in the LP? Is her Branch of the LP active? Does it have any influence on Labour Councillors in the area (where is a Labour left Council)or the LP generally? Is John Mcdonell more likely to get 44 signatures from MPs to stand for leader because Tami is in the LP? What will Tami do if John doesn’t get the signatures? What is the perspective of the LP Left in such circumstances? Does Tami believe Unions like PCS should now affiliate to LP? Are Unions linked to the LP having any significant effect on Government policy? Has their link with the LP detrimentally affected their ability to defend their members interests? Is the nature of the LP vote changing? Does the working class regard the LP as their party when it is attacking their pensions, welfare state and rights at work – it is privatising, waging wars and wanting more nuclear bombs? Should we be out there persuading people to join Labour? It would be useful for Tami to start answering some of these questions as the LP is in my view even worse than it was in 1997 when I left. RESPECT may not fill the vacuum to the left of Labour but there is space for a new working class party. How would work in the LP at present help build a new socialist party here?

    Like

  9. I think we should all be grateful to “Sham” for so lucidly and sensibly expressing the view of the Labour Party mainstream. It’s people with his opinions who get elected to the leadership by Labour Party members. That’s the type of company comrades who return to Labour will have to keep.It should make for stimulating ward meetings and candidate selections.Rather you than me.

    Like

  10. Sham is a rightwing maverick/class A wackjob and is regarded as such even by those on the right of the party.Liam, your argument is bollocks. Despite the fact that thousands of LP socialists have ripped up their party cards over the past decade, in the last elections to the Labour party NEC, left candidates won the top 4 out of 6 positions. Hardly a vindication for nutters in the Sham mould?Sham represents no-one but himself and frankly I’ve never met anyone in the Labour party who is even anywhere near as fanatically rightwing.Face it, Liam. The thousands of socialists who have left the Labour party have gone nowhere near pathetic little sects with no base in the working class like “Socialist Resistance”.The Labour party remains a party of the working class by virtue of its organic link with the trade unions. Care to explain what gives Respect any working class base?The dozens of sects outside of the Labour party play a deeply reactionary role in practice. Face it, Liam. You’re terrified of the John4Leader campaign – because you know that, if successful, irrelevant little sects like your own face oblivion.I can’t wait.

    Like

  11. Dan it will be a great consolation for Sham to know that there’s more than one bad tempered “wack job” in the Labour Party.Good luck with this crew Tami.

    Like

  12. “Class A wackjob” … not very PC of you, is it, “Dan”?Since when does agreeing with the party leadership and the Prime Minister (as well as the majority of Brits, Americans and Iraqis), allied to opposing terrorism and dictatorship make one a “nutter”???Face it, Liam. You’re terrified of the John4Leader campaign – because you know that, if successful, irrelevant little sects like your own face oblivion.On the contrary, “Dan”, you’ve got to face facts: The far-Left will never, ever take control of the Labour party or the country, and once the scummy man’s campaign results in abject failure, irrelevant little people like yourself face oblivion.Saddam dead. Milosevic dead. The Taleban ousted. Face it, “Dan”, every extremist you back ends up losing!

    Like

  13. Oh look, the analysis of Sham and Liam is, in essence, the same.We face an unholy alliance of Blairites and “ultra-left” sectarians who are determined not to allow a leftwing advance within the Labour party – something which terrifies both.Let’s prove both lots wrong.

    Like

  14. Just a suggestion — from afar. Can someone write an assessment about the John4Leader campaign and/or refer people to a critical analysis of it?I’m sure theres’ a lot of people elsewhere who’d be keen to know what the fuss is supposed to be about.In the late eighties Jessie Jackson’s run for presidential nomination in the US Dems was very interesting and exciting not because it was him but because it was a campaign that spilled out of the US Democrats and became almost a separate and independent entity which garnered very broad support.Thats’ why it was special and different.If John4Leader is or becomes something larger than an inner party numbers game, then I can see the point of the return to the LP and an active engagement with a broad and inspired groundswell. But if it’s not that… well,whats’ the point? Because all we get is the same tired artifice that has been employed to rationalise social democracy for over century.Here in Australia we diagnose such a fetish as “laborism”. ‘Tis a handy term.

    Like

  15. Dave Anyone with any sense of perspective at all on the Briitish left can tell you that the Jon McDonnell campaign has almost no traction outside the party, and hardly any resonance even within the party. The prominence it is receiving in blogland, is partly becasue of the unrepresentive effect of blogs, and partly a reflection of how little els egood there is to talk about.The forthcoming RMT stewards conference to helkp create an activist TU network is a much more serious initiative.

    Like

  16. Tami,Specifically Galloway did not say he supprted Blair bing blown up by a suicide bomb, and there are some other specific inaccuracies, but your main error in your analysis of Respect is when you say:”Given the unpopularity of Blair, any decent alternative to New Labour should be recruiting people by the handful – but this simply has not occurred. “This is simply not true, there are very deep seated structural problems with forming an alternative to Labour, not least of which the FTP electoral system, the British disease of trot groups on the Healy/Grant/Cliff model, general dissilusionment with electoral politics, and cyncism, all of which reinforced bythe historical legacy of the defeats of the last 20 years.The relevance of this is that most of these factors also militate against a revival of the Labour left, but with the added obstance of the overwhelming crushing victory of the neo-liberal right within the party.You certainly underestimate the structural nature of the right’s ascendency, it is not a qustion of first blair and then us.The rules and constitution have been changed to eliminate the levers that the left used to exercise influence, the conference is a meaningless rally, party organisation is a hollow shell on most of the country, the social composition of the membership has shifted hugely towards managerial types, the neo-liberal and imperuialist poliies mean that outside blogland and the bizarro anachronisms of Hackney etc, no activists under 30 would look at the party as anything remotely progressive.You also mistake form and content with reagard to the union link. This remains largely formal, and whereas in the past unions used to send deleagtes to GMC meeings in each CLP this practice has almost disappeared, lay activists and even full timers are much much less likely to be LP members than they ever were before.The most striking thing about the last few LP conferences, has been how the big 4 unions have almost intervended in th conference rathet han participated in it – pursuing their own agenda without participating in the wider issues like Iraq, not even pusuing their own unions polcies.You say the unions no longer affiliated are floundering, but what have the affiliated unions got to show for it? warwick !!! Not a jot of which is implemented.Meanwhile the LP link with Unison is certainly impeding that unions in resisting privatisation.Compare the RMT (non-affiliated) – who continue to campaign for a publicly owned rail service, with the capitulation of the CWU (affiliated) over privatisation around “Shaping the Future”.Al this talk of the importnace of the union link from LP lefts is ot air, beacue you don’t discuss the specifics of how it actually works, and the trajectory.The role of LP affiliation in the failure of Unison and CWU to oppose privatisation shows that the TU-LP link works both ways.

    Like

  17. Tami:”I’d rather be where the trade union activists are – and that’s in the McDonnell campaign and whether you like it or not – the Labour Party.”This is totaly untrue and you need a sense of perspective, never before in the last 100 years have TU activists been less likely to be in the LP, and in so far as they are in the LP they are dissilussioned and inactiveEven if we concede that some TU activist are memebrs (mainly card carrying only), it is a huge leap to assume that there is any meaingfull current around McDonnell. MY GMB branch voted to suport McDonnell, but there wasn’t a single LP member in the room, and three quarters of the branch committe had never heard of him.

    Like

  18. Well – where to begin after all that. I think it is fair to point out to Liam that Sham has consistently been a Blair supporter and I doubt he would deny this – so as for your assertion that this is majority thinking you’re just plain wrong. In fact, Sham has consistently attacked the John McDonnell campaign.Certainly Liam it’s a bit of calling the kettle black with your claiming that there are “whack-jobs” in the Labour Party – I’ve never met any nutters on the far left comrade……I don’t agree with Dan that SR is afraid of becoming irrelevant or play a “reactionary role”. I believe this is the Dan from the AWL? To Dave – I take your point about the Jackson campaign but have little patience for the perspective of “wait and see”. There are a number of folks on the left who would rather wait to see if John gets on the ballot before deciding to participate instead of jumping in with both feet and helping to make sure that there is a choice and not a coronation for the next leader of the LP.AN – I believe you are mistaken with the assertion that the McDonnell campaign has “no traction within the party” – we saw a very good indication at the TUC congress of support for John which should not be overlooked.Further if you think this IS the case and if you think the campaign is important, why wouldn’t you participate to spread the word about the campaign instead of sit on the sidelines and analise about why it isn’t getting support?Also, I don’t think the McDonnell campaign and the TU Shop Steward’s Initiative have to be counterposed – why are you suggesting that they are or should be?Regarding Galloway’s comments – I remember debating this with comrades at the time. Many defended Galloway’s comments that he would not condemn it if Blair were suicide bombed. Even in terms of consent in a philosophical definition this is known as “tacit consent”. I’m not going to pretend that his supposed nuances take away the meaning of his non-condemnation.I completely agree with your points about the problems faced by the left – but notice I said “handful” and not “thousands”. There was a reason for making the distinction. Respect not only failed to grow, but could not even recruit a “handful” of those leaving the Labour Party – this cannot be overlooked or explained away.I find it interesting that you choose to oppose my assertion about the TU link so heavily when you gave John A such a hard time when he was joining thew LP precisely because he didn’t mention this link!As far as my underestimation of the right-wing – I think you are simply being condescending here. Only the most ignorant dolt would be unable to see that Blair and his friends are in control of the leadership at present. Yet that isn’t why I have joined the Labour Party.The rebuilding of the labour left will include things like the shop stweards committee, initiatives by the RMT (yes I know they are non-affiliated) and others.What seems to be lacking here from most of those opposing me is a long term and historical perspective. It’s all about the here and now and the current state of the LP – not the history of the LP or what can become of it.To me the key point is that whether or not the LP can be reclaimed is not the issue – it is that any NEW organisation broad organisatyion of the left MUST involved the working class and the trade unions. It also, in my view, MUST involve the left of the LP. Many times I recall comrades lamenting the labour left not having joined Respect – how much stronger would it be if say Corbyn left the LP and joined. And this is precisely my point. Any party that will be a serious alternative to labour must contain the labour left and the trade unions. Until this happens these groups will, by and large, remain in the LP. As long as they remain in the LP AND there is no serious alternative that trade unionist anf labour left activists can join – conscious socialist should fight with them and support these campaigns.This is why I clearly did not exclude working again with SR comrades in the same organisation in the future. Given changing circumstances, either the LP itself will have the space within it or the labour left and the TUs will leave the LP and form a new organisation. I want to be a part of that fight, not criticise from the sidelines – that’s why I have joined the LP.

    Like

  19. People on both sides seem to over-rate the importance of the Macdonnell campaign. He is speakeing at packed meetings up and down the country every night, with people from inside and outside the party enthusiastically supporting him. However, the most likely outcome is that he won’t get on the ballot paper.Tami is right to join the Labour Party as it still offers the best chance of a left developing in Britain that can tap into the left of new Labour sentiments felt by the majority of the population – how many failed ‘new workers parties’ does it take for the far left to realise that planting the red flag and expecting the masses to rally round doesn’t work.Well done Tami – I hope more follow your example – Resistance is futile.

    Like

  20. Simon D: Absolutely spot-on! Whether McDonnell gets on the ballot paper or not it is a case of building the left in the LP and confronting Blairism and labourism. And the fact McDonnell is speaking to packed audiences as well. I certainly have no illusions with the LP. I still think Tami has done the right thing and joined the LP. The arguments I have heard for not being in the LP are well, weak. Build yet another workers party which will be doomed to fail and SR should re-think its position on Respect and leave!I mean, what alternative does Comrade Newman, offer for example which I have heard time and time again? Involvement in single issue campaigns (well, I am active in many campaigns and that doesn’t counterpose me being a member of the LP). He hasn’t given any viable alternatives just it is better to work outside…. Well done Tami and there’s lots to do in the Labour Party and with the Labour left.

    Like

  21. TamiI am suprised that you criticise me for not pubklicising and supporting McDonnell after i specifically wrote that my GMB branch voted to support him. Tis is more significnat than backing from an individual member, and also the SU blog consistently does publicise McDonnells’ campaign, and I have consistently argued how important it is.There is no contradiction in my stressing the weakness of the TU labour link to you, and at the same time giving John A a “hard time” about not even recognising the importance of the link when he joined the LP – he didn’t recognise it because it is atrophied and formal, rather than living and truly relevant.You talk about having historical perspective, but that is precisely what your analysis lacks. Not only do neither you or Louise relate your discussion to the huge changes that the LP has undergone, but you don’t recognise the almost unbelieveable decline of pulling power of the LP in the TU and progressive movements. Compare McDonnell with Benn for deputy!!! Compare the siuation to 1974 or the high tide vote of 1951. The dominance of the neo-liberals is not a temporary phenomenon, it is now structurally embedded in the DNA of the LP. I am open to arguments about why socialists might tactically work in the LP, but it has to be based upon a recognistion that the left can never win control of the party, and can probably not even get PPCs selected in winnable seats.The result is that people who see themselves as solid Labour no longer identify with the party at all – and never will again!And you cannot use the argument about Respect not attracting dissillusioned Labour people as evidence of the LP’s vibrancy. Firstly both the SSP has, and the SA did, sucessfully recruit from this layer. Look at John McAllinon, or Mike Marqusee and Liz Davies.We all joined the party in 1980 and 1981, when there was real prospects fo success, or at leats a very fertile environment to work in. Since then the LP has changed beyond recognition.It would indeed be a farce if that tregedy repeated itself.

    Like

  22. “And you cannot use the argument about Respect not attracting dissillusioned Labour people as evidence of the LP’s vibrancy. Firstly both the SSP has, and the SA did, sucessfully recruit from this layer. Look at John McAllinon, or Mike Marqusee and Liz Davies”.Well, frankly you can’t compare Respect to SA or SSP. SA did have socialist policies and whereas Respect doesn’t (and don’t kid yourself it can!)! Respect has no implantation within the labour movement and that’s the problem along with capitulating to conservatism. It least in the LP socialists do rally and confront New Labour. It seems in Respect people keep rather quiet and make excuses or capitulate(supporting watered down policies as well.). Hell, even I joined SA as I believed (rather misguidedly) that it could orientate to the class struggle. It had the potential but hey, we know the ending. The SSP is different as at least it orientates towards the class struggle and has socialist policies. Oh and I am still waiting for viable proposals for work outside the LP. Hint: I already am active in my TU.

    Like

  23. AN – I am fully aware you support the McDonnell campaign – my point above was about doing it from within the LP. I am not sure I get the argument about supporting McDonnell but doing it from outside the LP. What is your reasoning behind this? Why support a campaign for the leadership of a party that you think socialist shouldn’t be members of? SR claimed to support the McDonnell campaign in theory but in practice rarely did anything around it and even tried to stop HOV from being affiliated to the campaign!Further you simply claim that those who left the LP will “never” again rejoin. How do you know this? How do you know that a Cameron victory might not swing the LP left again and force the toppling of the right-wing? The answer is that you don’t. You’re basing your argument on an ahistorical analysis (and frankly simply your opinion) about what has happened in the relatively brief historical time period of ten years in a party which is over 100 years old. I am not saying that this will happen but I want to be in the thick of the discussions about this and these are going to happen in the labour left – not in Respect, not in the CNWP or other attempts by the left which are not based in the working class or the trade unions to form a “workers party”.You continuously claim that neither Louise nor I seem to be aware of the decline of working class struggle in Britain or the defeats of the class throughout the Thatcher and now Blair years when this simply isn’t the case. In fact it is precisely because of these defeats that Blairism triumphed. To me it makes it all the more clear that we should oppose this and support the Labour left. Your argument is based on a current perspective looking backwards to defeat and mine is based on a current perspective looking forwards to what might be created – but this will not be created if we don’t participate in it – and by that I mean the TUs and the LP.Further I never argued for the LP’s “vibrancy” – what I did say was that if Respect WAS a serious alternative, you would expect those leaving the LP over the war to join it. The fact that they have not done so says something about Respect, not the LP!

    Like

  24. Tamiit is no contradictin to support the McDonnell leader ship cmapign without being an individual member, that is the nature of the party with its TU linkMy argument is developed here:http://socialistunity.blogspot.com/2007/01/forward-march-of-labour-halted.htmlAnd with regarc to the left gaining victory in the party, given the current constitution and rules, how would this happen?

    Like

  25. Tami I have never siad that you and Louise don’t recognise the level of defeat and lack of class struggle.What I have siad is you have not recognised the degree to which the nature of the LP has changed, in terms of composition, constitution, etc. Whetehr or not the LP will swing left after a Caneron victoey is not a complete unkn own, becaasue as you say we have a hundred years of experience to expect that there will be an overwhelming urge for unityy with brown, and even further tempering of TU criticisms.the situation is completely different from 1979, becasue of the different context of the industriall struggle.

    Like

  26. AN – But you argue yourself into a corner here. First you say that the TU link is no longer relevant and then you base your support the McDonnell campaign precisely on this very link and claim it is why you do not need to join the LP. Is the link really as weak as you made it sound? The bottom line here is that you believe the LP is completely dead as a vehicle for debate and discussion on the left – I don’t and I think the McDonnell campaign is a good example of that. The odd thing is that I think we actually agree that were any new organisation based on the TUs and labour left to be formed we would both probably consider joining it and encourage others to do the same – but this organisation doesn’t exist.

    Like

  27. Tami”But you argue yourself into a corner here. First you say that the TU link is no longer relevant and then you base your support the McDonnell campaign precisely on this very link and claim it is why you do not need to join the LP. Is the link really as weak as you made it sound?”It is a paradox, my point about the link ebing formal is in comaprison with the days when GMC meetings would routinely have several delegates from affilaited union branches. That no longer happens. I have spent ten years in the LPP, so I do have some idea how it worked – and it is different today.Indeed what is missing from your account and others in defecne of LP membrrship is any account fo ahat is being achieved at ward and CLP level – that is much more signifincat than umbrella campisgns such as J4L, that organise LP memebrs as individuals.

    Like

  28. Can Tami please answer some of the questions I posed earlier?Also I think we do need to look at the current LP in a historic perspective – but I think Lenin would have had a different view of the LP now than when he wrote Left Wing Communism etc. Also it is a different period than when the Far Left joined the LP in the late 70s and 80s. I think we need to review the role of the LP in the 70s. WHo won the 74 election? Did Heath say you can vote for me or the TUs? Who lost the 79 election? Were the reforms implemented in the 20th century due only to 20 years of Labour Government or was it the strength of the working class/combativity of the Unions? Is it the be all and end all for the working class for the LP to be in govt? It is interesting Major spent more on public spending than Blair when he was first elected. Mcdonell is not the be all and end all. Unfortunately some people have some sentimentality for the LP as they see Tony Benn occasionally. IF tony had died off a few years ago – where would the Labour left be now? What is Tami’s critique of left reformism? Is MCdonell just a Benn Mark II? What have we learned from the more serious challenge to the Labour leadership of Benn in 1981?

    Like

  29. An said: “We all joined the party in 1980 and 1981, when there was real prospects fo success, or at leats a very fertile environment to work in. Since then the LP has changed beyond recognition.”Ok, a couple of points: 1980/81 – a real chance of success? You will remember better than I the 1983 General Election result, “longest suicide not in history” manifesto etc. etc.Secondly, you’re right, the Labour party has changed beyond recognition. Rightly so. Labour would never in a million years have achieved one term in office with a slim majority much less three consecutive terms with huge majorities had it not modernised, and made itself electable.If the choice is between New Labour in power or the Tories in power with Old Labour in eternal opposition I’d choose the current version every time.

    Like

  30. A very interesting debate. Tami is in trouble, metaphorically speaking, because she has decided to join the Labour party in the hope that by doing so she can link up with and/or encourage like minded leftists who see some potential in the party. This despite decades where the far/non-reformist/revolutionary left has, as pointed out above been a diminishing trend within the LP.Those who criticise her consider that the LP is impervious to change, yet they belong to factions which have no serious public profile and/or support and as with Liam (if I understand it correctly) some have left Respect due to it’s own unique approach to socialism.No disrespect to either side but isn’t this all a bit academic? Either route would be valid dependent upon circumstance. i can’t see an obvious way for the political expression of such views in a serious and effective (and principled) way.

    Like

Leave a reply to Liam Mac Uaid Cancel reply

Trending