Liam redux

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Respect's NC

This is a brief provisonal report. A more substantial will emerge one in the fullness of time. Position documents were introduced by George Galloway, Salma Yacoob Alan Thornett and  John Rees. Reports that the SWP had been circulating an “information pack” outlining Galloway’s weaknesses, errors, faults and foibles were confirmed. It was not apparent at…

Liam
1–2 minutes

This is a brief provisonal report. A more substantial will emerge one in the fullness of time.

Position documents were introduced by George Galloway, Salma Yacoob Alan Thornett and  John Rees.

Reports that the SWP had been circulating an “information pack” outlining Galloway’s weaknesses, errors, faults and foibles were confirmed. It was not apparent at what date they became aware that he is widely seen as less than perfect. None of their interventions focussed on the politics of his introduction or the discussion but mainly what a bad man he is. Argumentum ad hominen the philosphers call it and they think it’s a childish way to argue. For example “Einstein’s smelly so he can’t be right about relativity.”

This was one of the best attended NCs ever. While the SWP remained united and attracted the support of a small number of their long established collaborators the positions put by Salma Yacoob and Alan Thornett were favoured by the majority of non-aligned participants.

It was agree that the NC meet again next week.

The quick summary is that little sign of compromise was evident on either side. It looks, at the moment, that while neither side may want a split that the dynamic is in that direction. My own view, and I bet you’re all anxious to know what that is, is that the principal way the SWP has taught its members to deal with opposing political views is to attack the proponent of those views. You can get away with that internally for a very long time. When you come up against real forces in the outside world it leaves you unprepared to deal with differences.

PS: If anyone knows a way that will allow me to prevent Weekly Worker contributors reading this site please let me know.  Having a discussion between socialists is one thing. Having one of your most prominent members collaborate with a sneering, anti-socialist BBC Newsnight reporter is beyond contempt.

40 responses to “Respect's NC”

  1. wellssimon Avatar
    wellssimon

    “PS: If anyone knows a way that will allow me to prevent Weekly Worker contributors reading this site please let me know. Having a discussion between socialists is one thing. Having one of your most prominent members collaborate with a sneering, anti-socialist BBC Newsnight reporter is beyond contempt.”

    What was said was already out in the public domain, for example in blogs and Urban75. It would not take an investigative reporter to read out these comments verbatim. Also the release of documents and comments on your blog shows a touch of hypocrisy in the process.

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  2. twp77 Avatar
    twp77

    Indeed Liam,

    The fact that the SWP and Respect will not speak to the media about this fans the flames and invites “sneering reporters” to sneer even more. The SWP have made it clear that they wanted this to be a private discussion, cut off from the eyes of the left. That is what is truly beyond contempt. If it’s open to the left, the capitalist media is going to see it as well.

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  3. John Avatar
    John

    Will Mark Fischer be held to account by the democratic structures of the CPGB?

    Given that this display of crass sectarianism is even advertised on their website, I doubt it.

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  4. cameron Avatar
    cameron

    Mark Fischer is, of course, accountable to the democratic structures of the CPGB. If any member wishes to make a complaint then it will be heard. I can inform you that, as I understand it, no member has made a complaint. I certainly won’t be making a complaint.

    Has George McNeilage ever been held to account by the SSP for taking tens of thousands of pounds from Murdoch?

    Or Sheridan by Solidarity for taking money from one of Murdoch’s rivals to call his erstwhile comrades in the SSP scabs?

    Of course, if John wants to call for a labour movement inquiry into Mark’s ‘crimes’, then I’m sure he would be happy to co-operate.

    Very happy.

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  5. John Avatar
    John

    The members damn themselves then. I’m not suggesting he should be shot at dawn, just looking for some indication that CPGB members arn’t so convinced by their rightness in all things communistic that they cannot see their leader has crossed the line.

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  6. cameron Avatar
    cameron

    Crossed what line exactly John?

    Liam and Andy, to their credit, have been leaking documents for a couple of weeks now. No doubt Michael Crick is aware of this too.

    I’m sure there are those who think their actions are reprehensible too, (willing) accomplices to bourgeois manipulation.

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  7. Edward Ford Avatar
    Edward Ford

    “PS: If anyone knows a way that will allow me to prevent Weekly Worker contributors reading this site please let me know”.

    Why not ask the Chinese government to help you out, seeing how internet censorship/sabotage seems to be a bit of a speciality of theirs.

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  8. Louisefeminista Avatar
    Louisefeminista

    Ah, comrade “Edward (“Eddie”)Ford”… don’t come across you in the blog world that much. Oh…how’s “Elaine Harrison”, been a bit quiet lately, hasn’t she?

    If the LP had got itself into such an almighty pickle (worse than usual) are you telling me that nobody from Respect would have stuck the boot in…?

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  9. John Avatar
    John

    True colours on display, fine.

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  10. Louisefeminista Avatar
    Louisefeminista

    Oh, and just another thing re Newsnight.. Respect needs to gets it media strategy sorted esp. when a BBC reporter comes knocking as opposed to saying nothing.

    And maybe prioritising having a word with the maverick MP about appearing in cat suits on a crappy tv show and appearing also with a parasitical socialite on telly this week. Stupid indeed.

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  11. Newsnight, I salute your indefatigability! « Splintered Sunrise

    […] 23.09.07: We have a preliminary report on the Respect NC from Liam. I guess we can wait until the next Weekly World Worker News for the embroidered version. Posted […]

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  12. newleftparty Avatar
    newleftparty

    http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1573

    respect nc statement

    is this galloway’s motion that got passed?

    ks

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  13. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    The Newsnight business is very straightforward. You don’t assist the bourgeois press when they attack an organisation in the workers’ movement. That’s what Mark did by giving the interview.

    Putting discussion documents in the public domain so that socialist activists can have an informed dialogue is part of the political tradition from which I come. My guess is that Andy would have declined the opportunity of an interview with the BBC as firmly as I would.

    Tami, PR’s Stuart is a big boy and one snide, pointless comment from me is not likely to ruin his week. It’s true though that Respect’s media strategy in all this will probably be used as the textbook example of what not to do.

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  14. Louisefeminista Avatar
    Louisefeminista

    But to be honest Liam, is Respect part of the workers’ movement?

    I just think it is pointless getting worked up about what dastardly deeds Mark F. and the CPGB committed in giving that interview. It is the CPGB after all and why are you so surprised. And they seem to have a bit more media smarts.

    That’s why you needed someone in the Respect office to counter Fischer’s remarks and put your side of things.

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  15. Jim Carroll Avatar
    Jim Carroll

    People in the respect office obviously have yet to wake up to the fact that the days when left organisations could wash their dirty linen in private ended when the internet was invented, more so the case when organisations decide to enter the parliamentary arena. And if Galloway wants to have his ideas taken seriously he really has to stop playing the media whore. He is rapidly turning into a ‘left’ version of James Hewitt.

    and Cameron, your knowledge that George McNeilage recieved ‘tens of thousands of pounds’ came from where exactly ?.

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  16. Southpawpunch Avatar
    Southpawpunch

    It’s interesting to read some comments above from authors complaining, often formally correctly, about socialists breaking the accepted rules of how revolutionary socialists should act toward each other.

    In the comments above we have three separate commentators who have:

    – reproduced information that the state would find interesting in any prosecution of Tommy Sheridan for perjury.

    – ignored a complaint email about a blog in their control (falsely) accusing a comrade of breaking the law – for offences that are regularly prosecuted.

    – disgracefully publically accused someone completely falsely of supporting 9/11 – and then making no move to correct their error when it was pointed out to them

    I think I am completely consistent in maintaining a commitment to revolutionary discipline e.g. I have castigated both McNeilage and Sheridan but without providing a mite that would be of interest to the state.

    But that ‘s nothing special, it’s how most reds operate. I just find it hard to let the rank smell of hypocrisy that emanates from the three above (who will know who they are- all strong critics of Respect, Weekly Worker and the SWP) pass without comment.

    Incidentally, according to the book he wrote on Militant in the 80s, Michael Crick was once a member of the Labour Party Young Socialists in Stockport.
    –

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  17. wellssimon Avatar
    wellssimon

    ‘You don’t assist the bourgeois press when they attack an organisation in the workers’ movement.’ It is better to give a concise criticism of SWP and Respect to journalists who might not be familiar with the left, rather than the garbled accounts that are posted on blogs. Furthermore, the criticisms of the SWP and Respect are well known by the bourgeoise press.

    Liam, as far as I know you are not a member of the NC (National Council). Unless this came from the horses mouth, this post is your own embroidered version of what occurred, compiled from one or two telephone call/emails from members of the NC.

    “This is a brief provisonal report. A more substantial will emerge one in the fullness of time.” When will the full report emerge on your blog?

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  18. Andy Newman Avatar
    Andy Newman

    Liam wrote: Putting discussion documents in the public domain so that socialist activists can have an informed dialogue is part of the political tradition from which I come. My guess is that Andy would have declined the opportunity of an interview with the BBC as firmly as I would.

    I agree with Liam completely here.

    I am very supportive of the developments in Respect, and following this NC I will certainly rejoin.

    One of the most important things to have come out of that is the recogniction that respect’s debate needs to be in public, and I beleive there is a possibility that it will either become a democratic organistaion, or that it will becoome part of a wider democratic organisation.

    I have been happy that the Socialist unity blog has been able to bring a lot of the documents into the public eye, and the quality of the debate that has ensued has actually been very good I think.

    With regard to Newnight, Respect should have given an interview, however it is clear from the fact that Crick doorstepped them rather than arranging an appointment, that the BBC had no intention of giving a real interview. Nevertheless I remember the excellent interview given by Chris Bambury in similarly hostile circumstances after the killing of PC Blakelock when the BBC doopstepped an SWP public meeting – and Bambury came over brilliantly. So Respect could have done better.

    But no socialist (other than official Respect spokesperson) should have cooperated with that BBC newsnight programme, and I certainly would not have done.

    Even had Mark been well intentioned the BBC would have edited him to appear hositle to respect, but in fact Mark Fischer was clearly a willing accomplice in dissing the SWP and Respect. Objectively he came over no different to Oona King, and the grotesquley misnamed CPGB joined in a right wing witch hunt against the left.

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  19. Ian Donovan Avatar
    Ian Donovan

    So what if Mark Fischer is ‘accountable’ to membership of the CPGB? The CPGB membership is a self-selected grouping whose composition is shaped by its leadership, with an ideological agenda that brings it into blocks with enemies of the workers movement such as Michael Crick and Conrad Black.

    It is not merely a coincidence that Fischer was featured as an accessory to Crick’s project, along with Oona King, any more than it was a coincidence that the initial response of the Weekly Worker to the anti-Galloway witchhunt in April 2003 was to echo the lies of the Telegraph, saying that Galloway was probably guilty and that ‘the left should lead the condemnation’. This latest crap is just a continuation of that.

    The Union of Democratic Mineworkers waxed lyrical about its ‘democracy’ too. Indeed, it may have been formally more democratic internally than the NUM it was bitterly opposed to. Like the CPGB, however, they were right over the class line, and an enemy formation. That is how this sect should be regarded by socialists and anti-imperialists.

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  20. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    I’m accepting no more comments on the CPGB business.

    Both sides have had an opportunity to express their view here.

    Anyone wishing to discuss that matter further can do so elsewhere. The Weekly Worker site has a comments facility and I don’t want to get a discussion on Respect’s future and what it may mean in terms of the development of the left get sidelined by something so marginal.

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  21. SOCIALIST UNITY » RESPECT – IT’S GAME ON!

    […] on Liam’s blog show that Respect’s National Council approved George Galloway’s proposal for organisational […]

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  22. Red Maria Avatar
    Red Maria

    “I’m accepting no more comments on the CPGB business.”

    Spoilsport!

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  23. Ian Donovan Avatar
    Ian Donovan

    “The Weekly Worker site has a comments facility..”

    I wish! Theyre far too yellow for that!

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  24. Pikey Cooper Avatar
    Pikey Cooper

    Is this really true? ‘Reports that the SWP had been circulating an “information pack” outlining Galloway’s weaknesses, errors, faults and foibles were confirmed.’ If there is such an information pack it ought to be made public. Does anyone have a link to where it can be found online?

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  25. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    “Is this really true? ‘Reports that the SWP had been circulating an “information pack” outlining Galloway’s weaknesses, errors, faults and foibles were confirmed.’ If there is such an information pack it ought to be made public. Does anyone have a link to where it can be found online?”

    This same post was put on U75 and from someone who had never posted before. Is this Nick Cohen, Newsnight or another right wing journo?

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  26. Pikey Cooper Avatar
    Pikey Cooper

    No, I’m certainly not some ‘right wing journo’, but, hey, thanks for making me feel welcome! I’ve been in and around left politics for years, but haven’t felt the urge to post here or on Urban75 before (or anywhere else much since my old PC went south). I hope my questioning wasn’t too upsetting, but I like to know what’s going on and can’t stand all this secrecy I see in today’s left. Don’t most people here feel the same?

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  27. Tony Greenstein Avatar
    Tony Greenstein

    I remember, 25 years ago, when the WRP took over the Labour Committee on Palestine, courtesy of Ted Knight and WPR moles in the Labour Party. The LCP had successfully got a motion calling for a democratic, secular state through LP Conference (that was the day when the LP discussed motions and policy!).

    THe people they sent gave bogus names, as we found out later, they were not members though Knight claimed he’d signed them all up previously etc. We, i.e. Andrew Hornung of SO/AWL (he never capitulated to the Matgamna Zionists incidentally!) and myself gave a story to the Guardian Diary, then written by Alan Rusbridger.

    Were we wrong? I doubt it. I therefore disagree with both Liam and Ian D. It is because large sections of the socialist movement are incapable of debating their own politics honestly and openly, because they lie to their members, because they treat democracy as a luxury, because they resort to physical violence on occasion, that socialists who are not in these groups have on occasion to resort to the bourgeois press.

    It speaks volumes that the bourgeois press is more open, is more willing to debate than the so-called socialist press. That is one reason why socialist groups in this country are tiny and splintered, because members can see through the lies after a while. If you were to read the SW constantly from when I joined IS in 1970 to today I doubt if you would find even one article that is a serious analysis of where things have gone wrong, how the organisation has made mistakes and how these mistakes can be corrected.

    It is the lack of democracy inside groups like the SWP that led them into the disaster that is Respect. I know Ian Donovan hates the CPGB with all the venom of a former lover, all I would suggest to him is this. The CPGB, despite undoubtedly wacky politics at times (e.g. their 2 democratic secular states in Palestine) have got one thing right. They are not afraid of debate in their paper, including between their own comrades. This is a breath of fresh air and it is why their circulation is higher than a group which claims a membership about 100 times larger, viz. SWP.

    It is only when honesty comes to the far left that it will begin to start scaling the heights. in the meantime Mark Fischer was absolutely right to use Newsnight to put his politics across, just as I was right (in a different context) to appear on Richard Littlejohn’s programme about ‘anti-Semitism’. These are tactical not principled questions.

    Tony Greenstein

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  28. John Avatar
    John

    Actually Tony its because small self righteous left factions are unable to win support for their positions in the wider socialist movement that they resort to grabbing any chance at publicity. Even if it means aligning with the New Labour press machine.

    If you cant win, slander.

    The fact that internet sites that produce left wing gossip masquerading as debate often attract more hits than those addressing political questions is hardly a strength of the British left. Its a sign of crippling internalism, individualism and pessimism.

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  29. Andy Newman Avatar
    Andy Newman

    JOhn

    I think that is true (unless you are including the SU blog as one of the “internet sites that produce left wing gossip masquerading as debate “)

    But there is also a failure of papers like Socialist Worker, and for example the official Respect web-site in opening the space that can be filled by gossip.

    If these more serious publications were opened up for debating the real issues and airing the real disagreement,s then no-one would read WW.

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  30. John Avatar
    John

    I agree

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  31. Ian Donovan Avatar
    Ian Donovan

    Actually, if I ‘hate’ the CPGB, how come I was recently defending them against the misguided accusation from Andy Newman that in using the ‘national socialists’ about the SSP, they were calling the SSP Nazis? Also, how come I endorsed their Hands off the People of Iraq Campaign, albeit with criticisms?

    I dont ‘hate’ them at all – in fact I still get on personally well with Mark Fischer when I bump into him. ‘Hate’ has got nothing to do with it. I also broadly agree with some aspects of their position on the need for a open party. Unfortunately their paper is not genuinely open – there are certain views they don’t publish – those that cause them political embarassment.

    The problem I have with them is that they cross class lines, because of that aspect of their politics that puts an equals sign between the imperialist bourgeoisie and those of varying politics that lead or in some cases dominate peoples who are imperialism’s victims. They periodically join in smear campaigns against people on the left that should be defended, who oppose that ‘third camp’ view – I dont consider that harmless.

    Thus they see nothing wrong with participating constructively in an item by Michael Crick, a veteran of previous witchhunting attacks on the far left, and simply going with the flow of the propaganda attack on Respect by the Bush & Blair Corporation that did not even make the slightest attempt to appear impartial. Crick’s piece was actually just a continuation of Jeremy Paxman’s grotesque, openly hostile attempt to portray Galloway on election night as in some way a racist for daring to defeat Oona King in the election.

    The latest Weekly Worker simply parrots a smear from Peter Tatchell, falsely accusing George Galloway of appealing for anti-gay votes against Jim Fitzpatrick. This smear was easily torn to pieces by Islamophobia Watch, which I would remind people is produced by a Ken Livingstone supporter and an SSP supporter who are both in no way friends of Respect. But they can spot a reactionary smear when they see one. Unlke the CPGB.

    I dont actually see any comparison between Mark F’s appearance in Crick’s piece and Tony Greenstein’s appearing in Littlejohn’s programme. My understanding of this is that the intention was to diss Littlejohn and expose him for the racist hypocrite he is. Whether it could succeed in this or was wise is a different question. But there was not the slightest hint of such an intention in the CPGB’s participation in Crick’s piece – just an opportunist alliance with Crick to stick the knife into Respect as part of a news piece that had exactly the same purpose.

    Actually, Liam has appealed for an end to this discussion on this blog, and I respected that – but a wrong headed criticism like this simply has to be replied to. And for all the openess that Tony congratulates the CPGB for, it is worth noting that there is no open comments feature on their website, comarable to here for instance. There is a email form to send letters to the editor, who then decides which to publish. If they are so fond of ‘open-ness’ , why cant they manage to allow comments on their website? Answer – they want control over who is allowed to say what. They are not as open as they say they are. They dont even allow an open discussion list internally any more. So much for openness!

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  32. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    I’m a bit bemused that someone I’ve never heard of before seems to think they know how much money George McNeilage got from the NOTW since he never told anybody in the SSP and has said he wont tell until Tommy admits he’s a liar. What George did was his own choice and nobody has ever raised a proper formal complaint through the SSP’s disciplinary structures. IMO, he helped do damage to a non-socialist, lying, egotistical, misogynist monster and when folk say he should have just shoved that tape on YouTube they’re forgetting the fact that it just wouldn’t have gotten the same audience or had the same impact. If I was in his place, I might not have taken money. But I am not George and I cannot second guess his choices.

    FYI, George is still employed and a wee while ago my boyfriend saw him doing maintenance work in his office. So even though George has NEVER disclosed what he was paid (so anybody on any socialist blog claiming to know is talking nonsense), I think it’s pretty safe to assume it wasn’t some fabulous amount. Or if it was, then it’s probably safe to assume that George didn’t hang on to a good chunk of it.

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  33. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    I will delete any further comments relating to the CPGB business. Our lives cannot be THAT empty. Yes the Red Dolphin remark was a joke. I find it very difficult not to throw in odd one. I can stop if people find it confusing.

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  34. wellssimon Avatar
    wellssimon

    “Actually Tony its because small self righteous left factions are unable to win support for their positions in the wider socialist movement that they resort to grabbing any chance at publicity. Even if it means aligning with the New Labour press machine.

    If you cant win, slander.”

    What a load of t**h.

    Socialist Worker a serious publication?.

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  35. There really is nothing like good journalism! « Splintered Sunrise

    […] in the Michael Crick hatchet job on Newsnight, in response to well-aimed criticisms from Andy and Liam. I’ll be honest here, the sectarian mischief-maker in me was hoping that Ian Mahoney or Elaine […]

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  36. Zombie Respect « Entdinglichung

    […] ZeitgenossInnen sagen “shit-sheet” zu der Postille) Weekly Worker vom 27.09. (siehe auch hier) spricht der offenbar über Zugang zu SWP-Interna verfügende Autor davon, dass die SWP offenbar […]

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  37. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    My German is very poor. Does anyone know what “shit-sheet” means in that sentence about the Weekly Worker?

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  38. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    It just means somebody called WW a ‘shit-sheet’, somebody in this case being the Socialist Democracy Group.

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  39. entdinglichung Avatar
    entdinglichung

    it contains the (in my opinion) accurate characterization of the WW as a sometimes valuable source of information, sometimes a source of useless gossip and sometimes a forum for sectarian rants and slandering … revolutionary greetings!

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  40. Debate « nedludd

    […] on the left appear to think that this is a step too far, for example Liam MacUaid. He said, “If anyone knows a way that will allow me to prevent Weekly Worker contributors reading this s….” There were a few humours replies, for example, “Why not ask the Chinese government to […]

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