De-constructing The record: The Socialist Workers Party and Respect will probably be a doctoral thesis in a couple of years. It’s not possible to do it full justice. You could sum it up in the words of Marie who commented on an earlier post:

“It’s funny that the democratically elected conference is somehow not legitimate because there may or may not be ‘mostly SWP’ members there. SWP members who are also a part of Respect, no?

Let’s be honest here – the conference is (laughably) being painted as not legitimate because those attending have decided to respect the constitution rather than flock to Galloway’s side and mindlessly join in with the anti-SWP hysteria. End of.

SWP-haters would argue that the sky was red if it meant being on the opposite side of the argument to the SWP.”

It fully expresses the sense of victimhood that the SWP’s leadership is portraying to the world. They have been red baited, witch hunted and slandered. What follows is a highly selective series of opinions on passages that stood out when I read the document. It’s highly selective because some of the claims are so obviously absurd that they have to be challenged and because I have a chicken in the oven.

It alleges that the SWP is trying to fix the outcome of the Respect conference…Such allegations are false. They can be refuted simply by talking to many non-SWP members in Respect, as well as the SWP members against whom they are directed.

This is a lie. The accusations are true. I saw the SWP trying to get itself about thirty delegates in one branch. Party Notes instructed branches to cram the delegations. The Southwark SWP organiser wanted the comrades to take all the delegates’ places but was overturned by a caucus. There are similar stories from all over the country.

For the Socialist Workers Party has a long record of working over a wide range of issues with people and organisations with different views to our own.

Well sort of. The only problem is that they have to control everything. How’s about Globalise Resistance, the abysmal People Before Profit in Ireland, the majority of Respect branches? Party members conceal their political affiliation, describing themselves as branch secretary of this of activist in the other but they caucus beforehand as SWP members, decide as a bloc what they will support, who they will vote for and starve the organisations of any real internal life,

But the mud has never stuck because we have no interest in manipulation. We cannot fight back without persuading other forces to struggle alongside us, and we cannot win some of those to our approach without reasoned argument. People have known we have always been open about our politics at the same time as going out to build unity with those who do not agree with us. They have known that we do not attempt to smuggle in our own views by the back door or impose them on others.

See above. In any case the mud has stuck. The SWP has become renowned in the English speaking left because of its infatuation with bureaucratic control and manipulation. The Respect split is a direct consequence of it.

Stop the War coalition was formed after a highly successful central London meeting, initiated by the SWP but involving other people like George Monbiot, Jeremy Corbyn, Bruce Kent and Tariq Ali

The STWC has registered some big successes. It also has major limitations. It’s level of branch activity is low. It has not politicised of hegemonised the left in the way that CND did in the 1980s when there were diverse,active branches all across Britain.

our capacity to work out through debate within our organisation what needed to be done and then to win others to it was a precondition for creating one of the most effective campaigning organisations in British history.

This could be re-phrased as “we decided what we wanted to happen and then made damned sure it did”. And if it’s one of the most effective campaigning organisations in British history how come it’s still me and the same faces who end up leafleting the tube station when there’s a public event?

This method of the united front has underlain our approach in Respect all along.

No it hasn’t. The approach was to accumulate a body of support for the project. This support would necessarily and correctly be politically heterogeneous and the SWP acquired something like forty percent of national council places thus ensuring its line would always be carried. Cromwell insisted on a self denying ordinance. Respect would have benefited from something similar.

We had tried with only very limited success to promote this through the Socialist Alliance. We now saw the feeling against the war as providing much bigger possibilities of doing this.

I vividly remember standing with four other SR supporters handing out Socialist Alliance placards at one of the early demonstrations. The decision to use the anti-war movement not to build the SA was a major mistake.

There were sometimes quite sharp arguments inside the SWP about making sure non-SWP members were candidates.

Well if you teach people that their current needs to dominate everything it’s not surprising when some of them get carried away.

Then he suddenly did lunge into the attack with the document of mid August, which anyone capable of looking a little below the surface could see was directed against us.

It wasn’t directed against the SWP. It was directed at a particular method of working. Only the fear of pluralism and democracy could have generated the response we’ve seen.

Respect had done poorly in the Ealing & Southall by-election. This could be explained by people with a modicum of political analysis by the timing (it was called and two and half weeks notice), by the fact that it was in the middle of the short-lived “Brown bounce”… Galloway contrasted it with the success of Respect in the Shadwell by-election and drew the conclusion that the only way to win seats was to follow the methods which had begun to take root in Birmingham and parts of Tower Hamlets.

Or maybe Ealing was a shambles because people see no reason to vote for a party that only has a profile at election time. In Tower Hamlets, Newham and Preston it is a feature of local politics. This is referred to in the pre-conference discussion with an acknowledgement that local involvement in Respect is not a continuous process in many parts of the country.

attempts we had encouraged to reach out to new supporters through the Organising For Fighting Unions conference.

This was a real low point. Precisely the sort of Pyongyang charade that turns people away in droves.


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68 responses to “Pity for the victims”

  1. I have to say, your deconstruction is about as dishonest a piece of work as I’ve seen during this dispute. It relies on half-truths, distortions, selective quotes, and misinterpretation – all the things, and more, that you accuse the SWP of being guilty of. Here’s just a few choice items that popped out at me.

    “Party Notes instructed branches to cram the delegations. The Southwark SWP organiser wanted the comrades to take all the delegates’ places but was overturned by a caucus. There are similar stories from all over the country.”

    Language is key here. Did the Party Notes say “comrades cram the delegations” – or did they say people should try to get elected as delegates? Because the latter is a completely legitimate thing to seek in the context of an important vote. It’s disingenuous to pretend this didn’t happen on your side at, say, the TH meetings.

    And your next proof takes an event that proves the exact opposite of your thesis and somehow twists it to show how diabolical the SWP is: the organizer proposed an all-SWP slate and was voted down. You know, like, democratically. And the SWP comrades went in with a position that included Ian Donovan on the slate – even though he was at the front of the room arguing that members shouldn’t participate in their own conference. And then you make a claim about “all over the country” without citing a shred of evidence – and there is contrary evidence on the Respect website.

    Next falsehood: ” [SWP quote] our capacity to work out through debate within our organisation what needed to be done and then to win others to it was a precondition for creating one of the most effective campaigning organisations in British history.
    [your interpretation] “This could be re-phrased as “we decided what we wanted to happen and then made damned sure it did”. And if it’s one of the most effective campaigning organisations in British history how come it’s still me and the same faces who end up leafleting the tube station when there’s a public event?” **

    The quote you use argues that the SWP argued amongst themselves what their perspective was and then tried to convince others of it. Isn’t that the point of having a political organization? Isn’t that the point of having StW – you know, to decide on the key questions viz British involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and then try to win the broader public to that position? How is this diabolical? Isn’t that what the ISG is trying to do?
    As for the failures of your StW branch, maybe you ought to take some ownership here. Maybe you’ve also failed to provide a way forward even within your own branch. Look to thyself – instead of mudslinging.

    Speaking of which: “[SWP quote] There were sometimes quite sharp arguments inside the SWP about making sure non-SWP members were candidates.
    [your interpretation] “Well if you teach people that their current needs to dominate everything it’s not surprising when some of them get carried away.”

    I beg your pardon? This is the king of non sequiturs. You take one point (the SWP argued about who were to be candidates), don’t refute it and then make it about something else, which you don’t prove by argument or evidence.

    “[SWP quote] Then he suddenly did lunge into the attack with the document of mid August, which anyone capable of looking a little below the surface could see was directed against us.
    [your comment] “It wasn’t directed against the SWP. It was directed at a particular method of working. Only the fear of pluralism and democracy could have generated the response we’ve seen.”

    Well, this is just a bizarre claim – everybody knew it was an attack on the SWP. All you had to do was google “Galloway document” and every single hit came up with “Galloway launches attack on SWP.” But you wouldn’t have even had to do that. You would only have to read your own blog. For instance:

    “Andy Newman, on September 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm Said:
    “I think Mike has a point that the particular examples GG chooses are carefully chosen sticks and he is clear which dog he wants to beat with them.
    “The specific critique about the SWP’s methods are similar to that that SR, myself and others have made, but GG’s agenda is not ours.”

    As I said earlier, your reading is extremely dishonest and manipulative. One wonders how anyone can trust your judgment on other questions.

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  2. Canadien, there are so many points that need addressing in your response, so I’ll try although I am sure that it will be a futile exercise as you seem to be fixated on the fallacy of witchunts and red baiting without proffering any information to back up what you have said, as is the case consistently from the SWP leadership.
    You said ‘And then you make a claim about “all over the country” without citing a shred of evidence – and there is contrary evidence on the Respect website’. There are reports of the SWP cramming meetings all over the country, clearly under instruction. In my branch, as already reported, all 3 posts were taken by SWP members. This is despite the fact that they have not been involved in Respect locally, one member had not been for 18 months, others hadn’t been seen since May. This blew away the fallacy and empty rhetoric about pluralism. The chair and convenor who have worked tirelessly locally were sidelined and not able to go, despite one having written the motion from our branch. Now, I know for a fact as I was a member of the SWP up until that meeting that they had been instructed to take 2 of the 3 delegates. This had obviously moved to taking all of them and thus destroying the local branch.
    Our local StWC branch was functioning very well, had many local events and mobilised nationally. Sadly as the Respect crisis has unfolded, SWP members have flooded back to the branch and imposed a new agenda which has caused the convenor and secretary to resign. The reason for this could be that now Respect is dead in the water as far as they are concerned, the front that is now to be targetted for recruitment will be StWC.
    You said Well, this is just a bizarre claim – everybody knew it was an attack on the SWP
    Did they? I certainly didn’t feel under attack and it echoed things that had been raised in my local SWP branch months before. The response to this document was hysterical and inflammatory.
    As for OFFU, our branch tried to launch this but were opposed consistently by a NC member.

    The SWP leadership have tried their best to destroy Respect, but we won’t let them. As they are having their SWP rally, the future of a pluralistic, democratic left will be discussed by those serious about building an alternative to New Labour

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  3. everybody knew it was an attack on the SWP

    ‘Everybody’ knew (and knows) no such thing. It was an attack on the SWP leadership, and specifically on the leadership’s role & methods within RESPECT. A witch-hunt would surely have started with Ovenden and Hoveman being ordered to leave RESPECT, not the SWP.

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  4. I wouldn’t even call it an attack, merely mild criticism. Proposals were made that were valid and sensible, especially as there was a possibility of an election being called at short notice. Instead of a considered response, the SWP leadership turned the heat up and saw it as a way out.

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  5. CHAB – you’ve still only provided one concrete example of a problem with the SWP taking delegate positions – your branch. That’s not evidence for a nationwide phenomenon, nor proof that anybody had been instructed about specifics, etc.

    “the SWP leadership turned the heat up and saw it as a way out.” by seconding Thornett’s motion and then voting unanimously for it. Interesting “turning up” of the heat. Of course, then the other side mooted Nick Wrack – someone known to be in opposition to the SWP’s perspective – via e-mail petition without discussing it with the other SWPers on the NC, an obvious provocation.

    Other than that you haven’t answered anything with any evidence except how you felt. I’m afraid that’s not convincing.

    Phil – “It was an attack on the SWP leadership” – which was voted in by the membership and who voted for the perspective of the organization. Please, nobody buys your attempt to make a phoney distinction between members and leaders in this instance. Kevin and Rob were strongly opposed to the perspective of the party, that’s why they weren’t bothered.

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  6. Canadien, I have spoken with others whose experience was similar. Do you really think that just my branch was instructed to take all the delegates or can you see that this is a nationwide strategy?

    You said …the SWP leadership turned the heat up and saw it as a way out.” by seconding Thornett’s motion and then voting unanimously for it..

    Er, no. This would be by fabricating a witchunt and going on the offensive which they have chosen to escalate at every turn eg. expelling 3 members (no one can give good reason why this should have happened), encouraging the 4 councillors to resign the whip and then calling a press conference to explain to the bourgois press (again there seems to be no policy disagreement that led to the split), a fake call for unity and appeal statements signed as a test of loyalty, smearing George Galloway in the press, etc, etc, etc.
    Or have none of these things happened?

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  7. CHAB – I’m afraid you make a series of unsubstantiated claims for which your only back-up is “I have heard”, without any actual branch names or specifics. Nor do you have proof that the SWP encouraged the 4 councillors to resign the whip or call a press conference.

    And you haven’t refuted anything said in the document or what I’ve said, which is as follows: Galloway released this document that everyone knew was an attack on the SWP, which people (incl. Andy Newman on this blog) agreed was an attack on the SWP. The SWP wrote rebuttals and then seconded and voted for a resolution which was a clear compromise. Galloway’s supporters then escalated the dispute by fronting Nick Wrack as National Organizer without any consultation with the other side. Since then they have made a series of claims in letters signed by a minority of the NC and for which no evidence was supplied. Those things are all instigations and escalations. At first the SWP didn’t put out public statements – even when people showed up in TH with a last minute hand-written list that wrote out almost all of the SWP as delegates and which included people who weren’t even members of that branch.

    As for Kevin, Rob and Nick – the party has internal discipline: Nick chose to join in the clear escalation and maneouvre by the Galloway people and to renege on his previous agreement that he wouldn’t stand for Organizer. Kevin and Rob were in a conflict of interest, and had been bad-mouthing the SWP outside of the party. Now under normal circumstances these things can be worked out but when the party is being attacked at every turn, it sows confusion and demoralization to have members involved in those attacks.

    Read the document and you will see the “policy” disagreements – it has to do with whether the perspective is a conservative one of appealling to the lowest common denominator inside a community which has demonstrated support for a left-of-labour project or pushing outwards to the broader working class.

    As for the “test of loyalty” smear – please. Nobody is being thrown in jail if they don’t sign. It’s an insult to socialists who stand up to their damn boss everyday that they can’t so no to the SWP, which has no social power. Furthermore, as the “loyalty oath” is now close to 1200 names that makes it more than 50 times as popular as the 18 names on the letters signed by the Galloway supporters. If you’re the majority then why can’t you demonstrate it? Or is that why you’ve split before any democratic vote could be held – because you’d lose.

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  8. Oh, and speaking of escalations: The Galloway people called an alternative conference on the same day as the constitutionally mandated Respect conference.

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  9. Canadien, is it not becoming really obvious that lots of us tried to work constructively with the comrades of the SWP in this project for a number of years, in my case since 2001, and have concluded it is no longer possible under the present regime?

    This may be a clear sign of our shaky politics, sloppy thinking and dilettantism. Nevertheless we are all keen to try a new approach to building a class struggle mass party in Britain. For the next while we will have to try it without the SWP. There comes a moment in a relationship when it’s better to recognise it’s over. That’s where we are.

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  10. “throughout its history the Socialist Workers Party and its predecessor, the International Socialists, have worked alongside other organisations and individuals…. the Miners Support Committees in 1984-5”

    This is surely one of the most breathtaking claims.

    Do current day SWP members not know that their party stood outside the miners support committee for the first three months of the strike – denouncing them as no better than Oxfam and saying we needed “solidarity – not soup kitchens”, only to turn 180 degrees when it became clear they were critical to engaging the class in solidarity and maintained the morale of the strikers?

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  11. Canadien.

    I don’t know you from Adam, but Jjer Hicks, who I have known and trusted for perhaps twenty years, (and is one of the most respected working class militants to have joined the SWP for a generation) wrote:

    “Whilst we might not have the upheaval of Tower Hamlets, our own Annual General Meeting (AGM) held on 27th September 2007 was almost ruined by our full time SWP organiser who wanted to call all the SWP members out of the room 5 minutes before the AGM was due to start, leaving non SWP Respect members (a third of the meeting) sat there not knowing what the hell was going on. That potential disaster was averted because I refused to let it happen, but it would have without my intervention. Who would bet that this is not happening elsewhere.”

    canadien, you put me in mind the description that Jim Higgins once used, only a “Stakonovite who had over-fullfilled his grovelling quota” would trawl back throgh the hundreds of comments on the SU blig to find a comromising quote from me from August!

    Yes, galloway;s document as an attack on the SWP, that happens in politics. The context was that George wanted rapid changes in Respect becasue everyine expected a snap general election, and under the SWP’s leadership resepct was in no fit state to fighht an election, and galloway I am sure would not want to be humiliated by a poor performance.

    And yes, the examlpes George gave of incompetence in resepct were calibrated to be the ones that pointed to the SWP, because at that stage he didn’t name them.

    But hey, politics is tough, and galloway is a straight talking guy. But the SWP could still have negotiated, compromised, given a little, asked for a little, and come out with an intact working relationship.

    Instead they pressed the nuclear button.

    It is simply tedius to keep arguing minutiae with you. Especially as you go over the same ground time and again.

    But the big politics is the SWP now have no allies, have lost a layer of experienced cadre, have compromised their standing with key figures in the anti-war movement, and have demaged their credibility very severely.

    At he same time they have been so focused on this, that in a make or break struggle for one of the few unions they have any infleunce in, their eye has been totally off the ball. An SWP member who is the national union president is not campaigning for a no vote. The SWP’s “rank and file” paper in the midst of the dispute carred an article by the union’s sell out leader Billy Hayes! Duncan Hallas is spinning in his grave!

    And as a canadian, in one of the small wannabe SWPs, how do you know what the internal regime is like in the SWP? Actually the bureaucracy in the SWP has considerable power in the context of that organisation, and it is very hard to stand up to it.

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  12. Canadien

    What’s your evidence for claiming Rob and I denounced the SWP to third parties? It’s not the reason the SWP CC gave for expelling us. I know some comrades have been spreading this tale. But on what grounds exactly are you saying it?

    Canadien, this is tawdry stuff. Please don’t pronounce on things such as this when you have no locus on the situation and you’re basing yourself on those who’ve managed not judt to expel people but place Ken Loach among the witch-hunters.

    This is a catastrophic failure for the IST. It’s being argued through here on every level. I imagine the debate is happening internationally too.

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  13. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    Another day for public stoning of the SWP, I see? I’m not ready for the intellectual surrender necessary for informed subscription to such a party, but none of us (now you) would even have a coalition without them.

    Like them, or want to kill them; you can’t work without them. Galloway wouldn’t have been elected without the work of SWP comrades. And surely a certain expelled member above owes his salary to that event. Weren’t you sent to debunk him? I’m never sure if it’s his charm or his payroll that most tempts people to switch.

    Either way, it’s not people I’m cross with. It’s our glorious bloody leaders again. Politicians ruin politics. I spent a lot of effort persuading ‘voters’ that they’re not all the same. Our politicians are different. I’m not dishonest; I believed it at the time! Sadly, once again, I was wrong.

    Once again, I’m left without a party. This disillusioned feeling is getting tiresome.

    I’m not here to defend the SWP CC. They look dishonest for now criticising Galloway using claims they so strongly defended him against. Is the SWP membership up significantly on what it was before Respect? If so, they’ve won. If not, John Rees’s number must be up, surely? He staked it all on the Respect ‘front’.

    However, the SWP is the main party to get anything built so far this century, and many of the careers of ‘Respect Renewal’ splitters are built on the work of SWP foot soldiers. SWP comrades are among the finest and hardest working campaigners I’ve worked with, and a large part of Respect.

    Go on though: bite the hand that feeds you.

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  14. Andy – The problem with the Jerry Hicks quote is that he, like the example Liam uses, demonstrates exactly two things – some of the SWP full-timers are over-zealous and secondly that the membership can contradict them and refuse their direction. In other words it’s a dynamic organization. Is it difficult to face up to someone who argues against you? Of course it is. Well, that too is politics.

    ““Stakonovite who had over-fullfilled his grovelling quota” would trawl back throgh the hundreds of comments on the SU blog to find a comromising quote from me from August!”
    Gee, I guess you forgot your last post on SUN about not attacking people personally. Don’t worry, you didn’t hurt my feelings. And, in any case, the quote wasn’t to besmirch you – and was from here, not from SU, I’m too lazy to cross-reference – but given that Liam was making an obviously outrageous claim – that the Galloway letter wasn’t an attack – when it was clear even from his own blog and his own ally (you). Being accountable is also politics. however, while we’re on the subject of “trawling”, you do it all the time. In fact your whole post on “morbidity” was nothing but a trawl. Then there were the comments by the AWL you pulled up to make your point. And then there were several recent comments you made in which you trawled up your own comments from the past. So, please, let’s not be hypocritical about method of argument. Stick to the point.

    By the by, I didn’t need to go through hundreds of comments – I just went back to the original posting by Liam after the release of Galloway’s letter. There were less than two dozen comments there.

    One of the astounding things to me in this whole affair is how you complain about the other side doing the very things you have done. For instance: “It is simply tedius to keep arguing minutiae with you. Especially as you go over the same ground time and again.”
    And yet, not two paragraphs before, you rehearsed the same line that you have rehearsed a dozen or a thousand times before: “But hey, politics is tough, and galloway is a straight talking guy. But the SWP could still have negotiated, compromised, given a little, asked for a little, and come out with an intact working relationship… Instead they pressed the nuclear button.”
    And the problem is that, to my mind, it’s a distortion and requires being argued against, which, unfortunately, means running over the same stupid ground – Galloway attacked, the SWP conceded by seconding Thornett’s resolution, the Galloway people attacked again by mooting Wrack without consulting, etc. etc. etc. Believe me, I find you as equally tiresome as you find me. But, hey, as you say, politics is tough.

    “small wannabe swp”? That’s clever. Nice ad hominem argument. I guess your gentlemanly rules only apply to your own site or until you can’t win an argument using reason, evidence and argument. Then you sink to name-calling. And the SUN is a small wannabe…what exactly? Spare me.

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  15. Kevin – “What’s your evidence for claiming Rob and I denounced the SWP to third parties? It’s not the reason the SWP CC gave for expelling us. I know some comrades have been spreading this tale. But on what grounds exactly are you saying it?”

    My evidence, and I should have cited it because it’s obviously up for question, is the Party Notes, care of the CPGB site. I assumed you had seen it since everybody else in blogland clearly has.

    As for what I’m basing myself on in general…Well, obviously I’m not there but being there is no guarantee of clarity – I’m reminded of the story of the three blind men trying to describe an elephant. I have read the documents of both sides and others in between. To be honest, I started out not really certain and with a great deal of concern that the SWP might be wrong in this – but the weakness, in my view, of the Galloway people’s argument – their inconsistencies and just plain irrationality changed my mind more than any material from the SWP – of which there was little until very recently. And the obviously factional maneouvre around Nick Wrack as National Organizer – like, from a mile away obvious – is what made my mind up.

    As for Ken Loach et al – he’s no doubt a good comrade. But, good comrades make bad choices. I think the problem is one of a drift towards electoralist compromises as opposed to trying to push outwards into the broader working class. In effect, though not in every little detail, I agree with the SWP document. I think there are weaknesses, those of a doc written in the throes of this, that could be a source of criticism and I’ve no doubt based upon different politics, other interpretations are possible also. The trouble with Liam’s piece is that his critique is shabby and sloppy.

    Disagree with the SWP, by all means, attack them if you feel it necessary, but at least try to write a good, useful critique rather than sniping at nits that don’t even exist.

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  16. Canadien.

    It comes back to the old; “if you are so smart how come you aren’t rich”

    If the SWP is reigyt, then how come they have manageed to alienate everyone else in respect. If the goal was to preservce a pluralist allaince, then the side that comes out with no friends was wrong.

    Even so your narrative is still simply wrong. When you write: “And the problem is that, to my mind, it’s a distortion and requires being argued against, which, unfortunately, means running over the same stupid ground – Galloway attacked, the SWP conceded by seconding Thornett’s resolution, the Galloway people attacked again by mooting Wrack without consulting, etc. etc. etc. Believe me, I find you as equally tiresome as you find me. But, hey, as you say, politics is tough.”

    Remember, on the saturday of the NC meeting, the SWP second Thronett’s motion. BUt then at Party Council the very next day the SWP launched an attack on Galloway, that caused NIck Bird, a well respected PCS branch secretary with17 years in the party to reisgn.
    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=778

    And when Nick Wrack was proposed as a compromise, it is only becasue you look at this from the institutional interest of the SWP, rather than the wider interests of the movement that you can see this as an attack on the SWP. Becasue even in your own terms it cannot have been any more than something that damaged the presitige of the CC, has it been accepted the SWp would have weathered the immediate storm in Respect.

    If the SWp CC are so correct, then how come their whole startegy in Resepct has crashed and burned?

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  17. canadien, its been obvious to me for a while that party notes has been lying about whats going on.

    kevin and rob were not expelled for badmouthing the swp, this charge was never put to them, no evidence was ever provided.

    are you happy to simply take party notes’s word for it? doesn t it cause you any concern that only once kevin and rob were expelled were the actual charges raised against them?

    both sides have a lot to answer for here. but itsd amazing that people are willing to believe party notes yet not willing to believe what the other side says.

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  18. Andy: “If the SWP is right, then how come they have manageed to alienate everyone else in respect. If the goal was to preservce a pluralist allaince, then the side that comes out with no friends was wrong.”

    If the Left is right about the world, then how come everywhere the Right is in power? a) that’s not a sound argument and b) it’s not clear that is even true. The SWP and supporters now have close to 1200 names on their appeal. How many names have signed your sides documents? 18 – not even a majority of the NC.

    “And when Nick Wrack was proposed as a compromise, it is only becasue you look at this from the institutional interest of the SWP, rather than the wider interests of the movement that you can see this as an attack on the SWP.”

    It’s not from an institutional interest – whatever that means. It’s about compromise. You are no end of demands for the SWP to compromise but apparently it ABSOLUTELY had to be Nick Wrack. Nobody else in the known universe could have done that job and dammit, it had to be done via e-mail petition and not through a collective discussion. And this wasn’t about the “prestige” of the SWP – though not as though it is unreasonable that they shouldn’t feel humiliated after the amount of work they have put in. It was a maneouvre, plain and simple, no matter how you try to dress it up in fancy clothes. It was about driving a wedge in.

    “at Party Council the very next day the SWP launched an attack on Galloway” – Because it wasn’t over and that was clear. It’s one thing to compromise but it’s another to let your guard down. Only a fool does that after an attack has been launched, even with a compromise and a truce. And they were right because the Nick Wrack stuff happened within a few days of their compromise. So, Nick Bird or not, their actions were the correct ones.

    Ah, the crash and burn. Interesting – the premise of how you structure this is, as I’ve said before, an institutional one, that looks solely at internal phenomenon to judge what happened. But, as I wrote before, it’s not that simple and it’s not that Galloway is an evil man, or anybody else. It has to do in the first instance with the contradiction between the initial success of Respect amongst the key radicalized – and organized – constituency within the working class: anti-war activists in general and a section of the Muslim community in particular (as the most visible section in any case, being an ethnic minority). The failure was the fact that the ossified union bureaucracy has kept a lid on a wider break with Labourism inside the class, so that people are leaving Labour as individuals and not as fractions, etc. say in the way that the ILP did in the 30s. There was this sudden shift into war of position, of digging in the trenches, trying to claim wider ground inch by inch. Some began to see that pushing outwards as destabilizing and a threat to the hard-won electoral bases already won. They, instead, wanted to secure the electoral bases in the strongholds, which meant making concessions to PURELY electoral considerations. This in turn meant it was okay to have people run who were Conservatives the week before or who’d never been members but could sign up 50 supporters if they could win the candidacy. The SWP, perhaps in ways that weren’t alway productive – I’m not there, I can’t speak to those kinds of specifics and I’m sure some mistakes were made – was trying to challenge that dynamic: thus the criticisms of the Birmingham selection and the unfolding, increasingly fraught process in TH. Sadly, new practices generally develop before the theory that later justifies them, which muddies up arguments – and is also why arguments about the way forward are key: to clarify differences, etc. It seems like the arguments in Respect developed viz specific circumstances and reached a crescendo before a general perspectives debate could develop. In the face of lack of clarity, you got a scapegoating of the SWP (which might be more accurate than witch hunt, but that will do) for the problems.

    For me this perspective is reinforced by the level of “he said/she said” bullshit about completely contingent details and people resorting to nonsense arguments about “control freakery”, etc. etc. which explains nothing.

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  19. point – “are you happy to simply take party notes’s word for it? doesn t it cause you any concern that only once kevin and rob were expelled were the actual charges raised against them?”

    I don’t know about happiness but it’s about the only source of information out there I’ve seen regarding this. I’m not going to ask Kevin to confirm or deny anything because, well, he doesn’t owe me a whit and, you know, who the hell am I to demand it? He hasn’t denied that he and Rob were told to quit their jobs. And, frankly, I’m not uncomfortable with the idea that under certain circumstances the party would ask comrades to leave a problematic position in an organization – whether that’s a union or working for an MP, etc. It’s tactical – but sometimes tactical questions are raised to the level of urgent necessity given a crisis situation. Again, however, if Kevin and Rob think they were treated shabbily they should appeal to the party’s control commission. Apparently they still have sympathizers inside the party – though after the changing of the locks and the competing conference they have probably lost that as well.

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  20. Andy:-

    “An SWP member who is the national union president is not campaigning for a no vote. The SWP’s “rank and file” paper in the midst of the dispute carred an article by the union’s sell out leader Billy Hayes! Duncan Hallas is spinning in his grave!”

    I don’t know all the details of the situation in the CWU with Jane Loftus, but the SWP’s current position goes back to the formation of the StWC.
    As long as they could find left bureaucrats willing to speak on platforms against the war, they were happy to promote them and sink their differences on other matters.
    But these same left leaders often play compromising roles in the industrial disputes within their own union.
    At that point, maintaining silence compromises the SWP’s position.
    So having gone from a position of refusing to stand for even low-level union positions, they now have national leaders who are in danger of being associated with a sell-out.
    Of course, the methodology behind this is not a million miles away from that employed in the formation of Respect.
    So, if the people who are opting for the Galloway camp don’t maintain some independence and freedom of criticism, they are in danger of going down the same road.

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  21. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    And how much is the election-dependent constituency office salary so many worked so hard to get you?

    Like

  22. Like Canadien I actually felt that the SWP documents raised very valid concerns about Tower Hamlets Respect. You did have a situation where the Chair of the group defected to the LibDems because he wasn’t allowed to stand in the seat he wanted (a seat incidentally where Respect won), another guy was a Tory candidate then stood for Respect got elected then left Respect.

    Where I part company is that I felt they could have fought a political battle without destroying Respect and managing to unite the entire NC of Respect virtually against them and losing a layer of their own members.

    As I understand it, people like Ken Loach and Victoria Britain joined the SWP a month ago in virulently criticising Galloway at the NC of Respect – yet now they are in an anti-SWP bloc that includes recent defections from the SWP – Kevin Ovenden, Ghada Razuki, Rob Hoveman, Rita Carter, Gary McFarlane, Jerry Hicks etc.

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  23. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    “As I understand it, people like Ken Loach and Victoria Britain joined the SWP a month ago in virulently criticising Galloway at the NC of Respect – yet now they are in an anti-SWP bloc that includes recent defections from the SWP – Kevin Ovenden, Ghada Razuki, Rob Hoveman, Rita Carter, Gary McFarlane, Jerry Hicks etc.”

    Everyone keeps switching sides all the time. I remember my surprise that Galloway and Yaqoob were so close in the recent divide. Yaqoob used to be quite angry at Galloway.

    The high profile SWP switchers are a different proposition. For me, the one who comes out of this with the most credit is Jerry Hicks, whose resignation showed an honesty and sincerity, almost naivety. My interpretation is that Jerry (a strong militant and fine Bristolian) bought into the Respect project in the way we were encouraged to. We’d have a mass left party, within which smaller disciplined vanguard parties could operate, but one that would be a real party for us all.

    This brings me to the conclusion that both the SWP CC and Galloway, each for different reasons, manipulated the Respect project for shorter-term ends. Galloway got his election, and new career. He won. I don’t know whether through Respect the SWP have increased their membership or lost out, so whether they won I don’t know. The real losers are socialists and working-class people. Doubt as to whether Galloway or the SWP CC care about either of us is my main conclusion. Perfect.

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  24. Tower Hamlets Rat: ” … Like them, or want to kill them; you can’t work without them … .Go on though: bite the hand that feeds you.”

    This is a line of argument that has underlain nearly all the arguments of those batting for the SWP CC. And in each and every case it neatly defines the nature of the problem.

    It exposes the fact that at the heart of the recent crisis lies the SWP leadership’s inability to build a broad-based organisation and its insistence on maintaining a strangehold on Respect – even to the extent of running roughshod over all elementary rules of democratic pluralist practice.

    Why do I say this?

    Because taken apart what it, and variants of it, are saying is – we are the biggest and most organised therefore we have a right to run the show. The rest of you have no right to benefit from the fruits of our members activism without putting up with us occupying a position of untrammelled control.

    It has a “democratic” veneer to it – the suggestion that we form a natural majority and majorities have a right to rule – but this is easily exposed as fake.

    What the meeting packing of the past few weeks and the SWP leadership “petition” have shown us is that in effect the SWP leadership’s “majority” is little more than the highly organised intervention of perhaps 4-500 activists working under discipline (even where they vehemently disagree with the line).

    It is based on a positive perspective over several years of not building active local branches that meet regularly and draw people into political discussion. And above all it is based on driving out thousands (literally) of others from Respect.

    4-500 proclaiming a “majority” in an organisation that was a couple of years ago 4-5000 is the end result. Great victory for democracy!

    Sure the SWP leadership petition got over 1,000 signatures. Apart from being a pointer to the true size of their organisation (as Mark P has pointed out) and the lies the leadership tells its members (that it is 5x that size) – a good 200 of these are not Respect members and I would wager at least as many again have never been near a Respect meeting or activity. Some more of them actually disagree with the SWP leadership line and are ashamed that they were bullied into signing. Also – look at how many branches actually met in recent weeks and how many SWP were mobilised to support their leadership line – both forms of analysis result in a figure unlikely to be over 500.

    So the overall picture is of an organisation that purports to build a broad-based organisation but then use it’s own relative size, discpline and muscle to hold everyone else who disagrees – even the majority of the organisation – to ransom. The demand: we built this, you resist and we will trash the organisation.

    Inevitably some independent activists have given in to the ultimatum. It’s difficult to blame them. In a smaller town where it is literally the only show around and there may be only a handful of independent minded activists it’s quite understandable that people go for the quiet life.

    But the stance is not only politically and democratically wrong – it is incompatible with any perspective for building a broad pluralistic democratic movement. By definition that goal involves showing broader layers that you will put your numbers, discipline and muscle at the service of the wider movement – irrespective of whether your views are accepted; showing you are capable of taking criticism; being willing to become a minority when you lose votes; etc.

    By not doing this and by trying to defend itself through the phony “we built Respect we’ll call the shots” argument the SWP leadership’s supporters are demonstrating that they don’t understand how to, are incapable of and have no intention of building a broad organisation.

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  25. Alex

    Jane Loftus is not associated with the sell out, becasue she voted against the deal at the postal exec.

    However only Dave Warren from the exec is campaogning against the deal. Jane Loftus is not involved in the campagn for a no vote.

    Jane also did not turn up at the crucual postal exec meeting where “shaping the future” was voted on, the strategic acceptanc eby the CWU of accceting rationalisation and competition.

    I have been rasing the questions of Jane Loftus’s behaviour on the CWU exec for a while. BUt eiter she is not operating under SWP guidence, or the SWP have totaly changed their view on how to work in the unions

    The original R&F papers when John Deeson / Steve Jeffries were industrial organiser would never have had an article by the equivelne to Billy Hayes

    What is going on?

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  26. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    Piers, I agree with some of your response and admire the manner of your argument. Much better than the jealous SWP-hating that’s been so prevalent on this and the (surely) ironically titled ‘Socialist Unity’ logs, anyway.

    Democracy within an organisation such as Respect is an inevitable problem. If the SWP make up a majority of its membership (who knows?), then even majority rule under proportional delegation systems will result in their complete control. The centralist slate systems in fact used only exacerbated the problem. It ensures only majority representation, so majority rule is by only a majority of a majority (proverbially 26%). That’s as daft as the way we elect MPs to Westminster!

    For me, the solution is twofold.

    Firstly, a ‘pluralistic’ (a horrible word) organisation is effectively ‘multi-party’, and so requires proportionally representative delegation systems. Imagine a mass party or coalition’s membership was 30% SWP, 25% Galloway and his ‘base’*, 20% independent members, 15% Socialist Party (Militant)**, 10% other radical-left parties. The National Council or whatever governing body should be elected proportionally, and must if the minority components are to be retained.

    Secondly, a ‘pluralistic’ (urgh) party or coalition should consist of multiple component groups, each of which should be a minority of the total. The very fact (if true) that the majority of Respect members were SWP members surely shows we failed in building a broad coalition!

    But if the SWP are a majority of Respect, then democracy will always favour them, and maybe it should. From the start, Galloway enjoyed huge influence through having been elected to an undemocratic parliament through New Labour. His power within Respect held no democratic origin.

    Respect simply failed to outgrow the claimed SWP majority. That’s a recruitment failure of us all, and the SWP can only bear their share of the blame for this.

    This brings me on to my two other points:
    * Is George Galloway’s base one that we can really work with? He seems to be courting a lot of non-socialists really quite hostile to us and everything we believe in. Isn’t infighting inevitable when trying to combine socialists with right-wing reactionaries so fiercely opposed to socialism? Even Galloway’s alliance with many of these is unsustainable!
    ** Shouldn’t a broad left Labour coalition have included the Socialist Party (Militant)? Would this not have brought many more socialists and class-militants into the coalition and given it greater credibility as ‘the unity coalition’?

    This all brings me to the conclusion that we need a mass party of all socialists and workers, not a mass coalition of one main group of socialists, anti-war activists, and right-wing Muslims.

    I’m in favour of working with Muslims, and defending them in solidarity. Yet while I can’t claim to understand religious feelings, I feel socialism is a far better criterion for coalition than religion or ethnicity. The Muslims I’ve worked with have just been socialists (and progressive left-wing people not actually calling themselves socialists) who happen also to hold the faith. In response to discrimination against Muslims we have debated and campaigned together; but we talked far more about poverty, peace, civil liberties, capitalist destruction of the environment, and solutions thereof.

    Surely a conservative Muslim is still a conservative, and a socialist Muslim a socialist? And surely that’s all I need to care about?

    The SWP leadership didn’t insist on Respect being too ‘socialist’ in the beginning, presumably so as not to dissuade non-socialists from joining. This weakens their complaints now that Respect isn’t socialist enough. These unholy alliances are the responsibility of both parties.

    I still stand by my defence of SWP comrades though. Jealousy about their superior membership should be addressed not by attack but by organisation and recruitment!

    “SWP-haters would argue that the sky was red if it meant being on the opposite side of the argument to the SWP.”

    It is without integrity that so many are so aggressive towards a party they chose to build an alliance with and to whom they owe almost every success they have had.

    Both Lavalette and Galloway’s elections could not have succeeded without the hard work of SWP comrades. The coalition couldn’t even have come this far without them.

    Some may say it’s equally dependent on conservatives Muslims. I disagree. Large numbers of Muslims combined with white Christians and atheists, uniting around their class, socialism, and opposition to the war to elect Lavalette. No communalist action was necessary, and they elected him first before Respect even came about. ‘Socialist Alliance against the war’ or something similar was his party description.

    I restate this because this was possible. Galloway’s opportunistic alliance with reactionary conservatives is unsustainable and unnecessary. If we had been honest, we really could have built a socialist party that brought together working class people of all faiths and ethnicities under a red and green banner.

    But honesty is neither Galloway nor Rees’s strength.

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  27. Liam said “I saw the SWP trying to get itself about thirty delegates in one branch.” Liam you not only watched this you actually voted for this, as per your blog.

    You were also astounded how some SWP members even wanted a compromise.

    Of course this maybe was before you realised your comrades Thornett and Lister wanted to drive out the SWP because they were a block to their vision of a broad party left of labour.

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  28. Question – why do people claiming to be independents use psuedonyms that are unrecognisable? It’s not as if they fear expulsion from the SWP for posting, is it? No one is asking anyone to post under their full, legal name if they prefer not to, but by concealing your identity completely from those on the left you are arguing with, you give the appearance of being a sock puppet.

    By the way, I assume that the reason that the latest shit from Tim has not been deleted is just lack of time, right? People who come here to debate left-wing politics should not face baiting from racist McCarthyites. There should be no qualms about denying ‘free speech’ on left blogs to people whose idea of freedom is Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay, and who basically want to see the left in jail … or dead.

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  29. Tim, you’ve outworn your welcome.
    Digger it was an error of judgement on my part. The previous year the SWP had also taken 50% of the delegates’ places and my objections fell on deaf ears. It seemed to be accepted as the natural order of things.
    It was the first branch meeting I’d attended in a year. I did not recognise all the names or faces and wasn’t aware of 90% of the preceding shenanigans. Sooner or later the manipulation had to stop and it was brought to a very abrupt halt that night.

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  30. Oh look I’m famous! Hi mum!

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  31. Tower Hamlets Rat

    Thank you for the considered and comradely nature of your reply even if we don’t entirely agree with each other.

    You raise a number of interesting issues – not least of which is the need for proportional representation and the problem with slates – both of which the SWP leadership fatally failed to engage with until very late in the day. Some of us, in SR and RPP, have been raising this for the past year against their opposition.

    Two particular points I do disagree with

    “If the SWP make up a majority of its membership (who knows?)”
    The whole point of my earlier posting was that they don’t have a majority, but that their method allows them (probably about 500 of them) to take over an organisation of which they don’t have a majority because of their abuse of pluralistic democratic proceedures. In the longer term it has contributed towards a draining of 2,000 members. Obviously if you carry on driving people away even 20 people can get a majority eventually. But in effect, in the process, you are smashing it up – certainly as a democratic broad movement.

    “Respect simply failed to outgrow the claimed SWP majority. That’s a recruitment failure of us all,”
    On the contrary as I have pointed out. Respect did manage to recruit 4-5,000 (it should have gone on to grow to at least twice that size), but then lost half of this number because of the method by which it was led and built by the controlling component of its leadership. It didn’t “fail to outgrow” it shrank to the “claimed SWP majority.

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  32. Tower hamlets rat, if you want to win freinds and inflence people this perhaps isn’t the best start: “Much better than the jealous SWP-hating that’s been so prevalent on this and the (surely) ironically titled ‘Socialist Unity’ logs, anyway.”

    The origin of Respect was entirley designed to be more under the control of the SWP than the Socialist Alliance was.

    Given that the Millies even left the SA rather than be subordinate to the SWP, there was no way they would have been in Respect.

    Those who wanted to maintain as much as possible of the activist base of the SA in Respect argued two positions, i) that the SA should continue as a platform within respect; and when that was defeated at national executive: ii) that SA brenches should be able to stand in the 2004 local elections while supporting Respect in the euro elections on the same day.

    The idea of this strategy was to give the SA activists time to come to their own conculsion about supportiing Respect, and win the over in the long haul rather than being given no choice, We were opposed by both the SWP and ISG. This strategy also excluded those ultra-lefts who would not support Reseoct under any circumstances.

    Instead, round the country SWP members, some who had no previous record of activity within the SA, turned up at SA branches and voted them out of existence.

    It was this behaviour that minimised the socialist activist component in Respect.

    Then during the first year of Respect, the national executive rarely met, minutes were not circulated, meetings of the exec were called or cancelled at two days notice, decsions were made that were never brought to the national execuitice, etc, etc. This was all the SWP’s way of doing things, and it meant that very few of the SA’s activist base stayed active in Respect.

    I don’t personally see much “SWP hating”, or rather I see only a symetrical response to the SWP’s hostility to crticicsm.

    If you characterise politcal criticsim of the SWP as “SWP hating” then that reinforces the polarisation. What is more, if respect is to succeed it needs to feel a naturall home for people who are not Trotsyists or reveolutionaries. And they should not be patronised as people who just haven’t seen the light yet.

    The SWP have a self image where others should admire them and look to them for leadership, and if you dn’t do that you are a sectarian. This undermines the genuine respect that many of us have for their commitment, organising ability and activism.

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  33. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    I don’t disagree with several of Piers and Andy’s points regarding the democratic problems within Respect, but I place them in the context from which they originated. Despite mass meetings and talk of ‘growing from below’, Respect was founded by an alliance of Galloway and the SWP, formed through Stop the War, and of course dependent on New Labour having expelled Galloway. Galloway got almost full public policy control; the SWP got almost full internal control. That was ‘the deal’, whatever either constituent clique claims.

    Now it wasn’t ‘good’ that they implemented a slate system that failed to ensure proportional (fair) representation of Respect constituent parties and independents. But it wasn’t entirely their fault either. The slate system of ‘democratic centralism’ operated within the SWP is all they know. If you’d have asked New Labour to arrange it, you’d have one of the daft electoral systems operating in Britain today. If you’d asked the Lib Dems, you’d have one of their favoured ‘third-party’ PR systems! But the SWP were given an almost free hand on internal matters, in return for a Galloway-centric public political presence within which the SWP were either self-motivated or expected to defend the Galloway brand against slurs, both deceitful and true. And Galloway (by which I mean the clique rather than the individual) was given licence over manifestos. As I hinted at above, the SWP used disciplined delegate management to prevent resolutions or manifesto decisions going against Galloway (e.g. requiring him to take a worker’s wage).

    Put simply:
    Respect = Galloway policy + SWP organisation

    I’ll say it again. The SWP implemented many of the organisational systems they know and use themselves. I can’t condemn the SWP for this. A dog will bark; a beaver will build a lodge.

    The problem was the way Respect was created. Negotiations between one component party and one playboy politician are not a satisfactory way to build a coalition. The organisational structures and internal democratic delegation systems must be developed by the mass membership, or the mass membership must join a party or coalition they believe to have these democratic structures. That’s how to engage a mass with an organisation.

    Leaders must not be allowed to decide how leaders are selected! That’s like MPs voting on their own vast pay rises, and Prime Ministers making decisions about national constitutions!

    Authority must be invested democratically, in the way those under that authority, not wielding it, decide.

    That’s as much Galloway’s fault as the SWP. These unholy deals and alliances are the tradition of imperialist rulers, not the tradition of mass movements.

    Andy:
    I wasn’t trying to ‘win friends’, just place an alternative view into a debate. If you truly believe people haven’t displayed hatred towards the SWP (who are largely responsible for their electoral and organisational success) then you’re not seeing what I am. I’m more interested in comrades than friends, and this isn’t the real world, it’s the internet. Smoke and mirrors methinks.

    Piers:
    Thanks for the membership sizes information. Getting a hold on membership sizes of left groups and parties is like getting blood from stone.

    What could have happened, before the Galloway letter stirred up the storm it did was a big debate on how democratic organisation of a ‘multi-party’ coalition or party should best be developed. If successful, ex-members not in the SWP (like me) could have rejoined and had great success. I believe the SWP could have accepted this, if constructive criticism was coming from independent delegates, rather than it coming in the form of divisive and covert tactical manoeuvres from the Galloway camp who were repositioning themselves with sexist businessmen hostile to the SWP, and launching the so-called ‘battle against Trotskyism’.

    I don’t think we will agree on whether Galloway was pandering to his base and taking steps to either remove, or at least be seen by his base to be trying to remove, the SWP. I think he was; I don’t expect you do.

    I don’t think we will agree on whether the SWP would have accepted democratic changes. I think that some degree of change would have been acceptable had it come from independent activists ‘at the bottom’ of the coalition, rather than office-seeking ‘leaders’ who hate the SWP.

    So here are some questions.
    Do you believe Abjol Miah’s group want to be in the same coalition as the SWP?
    Do you believe Galloway’s clique would like to be free of the SWP, were his election not so dependent on their hard work?
    Do you think Abjol Miah is a suitable candidate for a supposedly socialist party/coalition?

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  34. That lst one is easy:

    Do you think Abjol Miah is a suitable candidate for a supposedly socialist party/coalition?

    YES

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  35. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    Really?

    The last one was badly written, though I’m surprised at the conviction of your answer. A better question, as less provocative and more revealing, would have been to ask whether you (or anyone else) believe that Respect candidates should be explicitly ‘soclaist’ candidates (as well as the other important values of that naff backcronym and the coalition’s declarations). Should all Respect candidates be explicitly socialists?

    I don’t feel you put the effort into your reply that I did. I think I earn some credit for using the words ‘beaver’ and ‘playboy’ in a discussion of Galloway and the SWP.

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  36. Andy said: “Given that the Millies even left the SA rather than be subordinate to the SWP, there was no way they would have been in Respect.”

    That issue is not as simple as this.

    The Socialist Party’s attitude towards Respect was not written in stone. They thought that there was real potential for a left of Labour force coming out of the anti-war movement. Plus a lot of the things more sectarian leftists were hung up on didn’t particularly bother them. The workers wage idea in a modern context is closely associated with them for instance and they certainly advocate it but they would not see it as a precondition for working with ex-Labour leftists.

    They asked to take part in the discussions which led to the creation of Respect and were told to piss off. They still tried to engage with the process around its formation, to little avail. When Respect was finally unveiled for acclamation, they took the view that it was making unnecessary political compromises and should be more socialist. They also took the view that it had essentially no democratic internal life. Those two issues prevented them from joining but they did call for a vote for Respect candidates in almost all elections and even stood a joint candidate with them. Their criticisms of Respect have been sharp at times but they have not gone in for hysterical denunciations.

    The Socialist Party’s take on the current crisis can be found here: http://socialistparty.org.uk/2007/508/mp2118.htm

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  37. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    ‘They asked to take part in the discussions which led to the creation of Respect and were told to piss off.’
    If true, then ‘that’s a bad miss’. Bringing as many socialist vanguard parties into one socialist mass party is the Holy Grail for me.

    ‘they took the view that it was making unnecessary political compromises and should be more socialist’
    I can’t disagree with the view, and to be fair, the SWP now agrees!

    ‘They also took the view that it had essentially no democratic internal life.’
    This varies massively from branch to branch in my experience of Respect.

    ‘Their criticisms of Respect have been sharp at times but they have not gone in for hysterical denunciations.’
    I’ve noticed that. Weekly Worker (who were a part of Respect unless I’m mistaken) were more critical of Respect when I was working for them (Respect), than were the SP (who were never a part and more free/likely to criticise). Hysterical denunciations are a problem. We now have two Respects, each sometimes hysterical in its denunciation of the other, although I stand by my defence of the SWP as a party (less so the CC).

    The day the SWP and SP get together and build a mass democratic socialist party together, retaining their own revolutionary vanguard identities within it, bringing in the various other parties of the genuine left… Well I’ll join in a heartbeat, and so will others. And we’ll prosper electorally, get on the telly, get mass attendance at public meetings, expand our protest capability, and make some real changes happen. I wish.

    So what’s the problem? Both want socialism, both see this as a revolutionary process, both see complete democracy as a fundamental component of socialism, both think Stalin was neither a socialist nor a good person…

    We’re not still hung up on the ‘State Capitalist vs. Deformed Workers State’ row are we? Both definitions result in its condemnation, which is surely sufficient.

    I’ve never had a problem with either party, other than that I want to be an active member of a proportionally delegated mass democratic socialist party to which both (and other) vanguards (and unions) affiliate their membership and with which they all persevere on a more permanent basis. But they won’t let me. Does nobody else want this? (I know others who do)

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  38. Liam, I know it’s not quite on-topic, but do you know if there’ll be anyone coming over from the LCR to attend the Respect Renewal Conference?

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  39. Andy: –

    The original R&F papers when John Deeson / Steve Jeffries were industrial organiser would never have had an article by the equivelne to Billy Hayes

    What is going on?

    The 70’s R&F papers were very syndicalist, tending to avoid fighting for elections in the unions. Which was a big weakness, but excusable in a period when things could get done by unofficial action, such as Saltley or the Pentonville 5. S.W. actually played a very positive role in that dispute by turning the printshop over to the dockers and putting out massive publicity for them.

    Then something seemed to happen around the time the bookshop moved to that new address in Bloomsbury and started to develop links with the TUC.
    Putting out TUC literature etc….

    When the “arkward squad” developed their informal meetings, the SWP seems to have seen this a signal to try to get them on board. Everything now hinged on united front activity and it was all theorised by Rees in ISJ (inadequately in my view)

    As long as you had union leaders who were prepared to speak on StWC platforms, their actions inside the union were glossed over. I was actually in favour of working with the SWP when they made their turn back to working in the unions, but other people I knew were much less happy, using the “wrecking ball” argument.

    I think it also may stem from the view that unofficial action is virtually impossible to organise from the base of the union because the TU laws have tied the union execs up with legal strings and the will to challenge them isn’t there – which is actually partly true.

    But it’s no good having people in senior leadership positions in unions if they aren’t actively seen to challenge lousy deals, or attempts to introduce local bargaining, which is the road to defeat. So she should be speaking out. Trouble is President is not a good position to do it from, as it’s usually a temporary figurehead role and you’re supposed to be a bit of concilliator, so she just may not have the clout on the exec to do anything on her own.

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  40. Alex – ‘Trouble is President is not a good position to do it from, as it’s usually a temporary figurehead role and you’re supposed to be a bit of concilliator, so she just may not have the clout on the exec to do anything on her own.’

    This may be true, but it would send a clear message to the rank and file and build confidence for the no vote

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  41. If you truly believe people haven’t displayed hatred towards the SWP (who are largely responsible for their electoral and organisational success) then you’re not seeing what I am.

    You’re doing what I’ve criticised John G for before – making a criticism in such broad and general terms that it’s impossible to refute. Have ‘people’ displayed hatred towards the SWP? Yes, two or three people have. Is the Respect Renewal camp characterised by hatred for the SWP? Absolutely not. Was the discussion and mobiilisation kicked off by the Galloway letter motivated by hatred for the SWP? Absolutely definitely not.

    Pop quiz: how many of the following statements are signs of sectarian bias against the SWP?

    “I don’t trust anyone from the SWP, never have, never will”
    “I don’t trust John Rees or Lindsey German – never have, never will”
    “The SWP’s strategy for RESPECT is fundamentally flawed because…”
    “The SWP’s entire strategy is fundamentally flawed because…”
    “I used to think SWP members were OK, but I’ll have trouble working with them after this”

    I make it one out of five.

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  42. CHAB: “This may be true, but it would send a clear message to the rank and file and build confidence for the no vote”

    A union president who took an independent stand against the majority of the exec would be in a position where they would have to resign to say it.
    So it would be have to be Vote NO and arrivadella bambini.

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  43. Is the Respect Renewal camp characterised by hatred for the SWP? Absolutely not.

    I’m distinguishing between ‘hatred’ and ‘feeling thoroughly pissed off and harbouring personal grudges’; I think it’s an important distinction, not least because only one of the two is permanent.

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  44. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    ‘Is the Respect Renewal camp characterised by hatred for the SWP? Absolutely not.’
    That was not implicit in what I said.

    There are good comrades in the new ‘Renewal’ party, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. Yet some of your councillors who have defected from Respect to ‘Renewal’ are hostile towards the SWP, which is one thing, but also hostile to socialism, which is quite another.

    And your MP’s ‘battle against Trotskyism’, after praising the SWP publicly before the break-down, shows a lack of integrity and does not suggest the solidarity of a genuine socialist MP.

    If Respect was to be an explicitly non-socialist anti-war and ‘Muslim’ party, then the ‘Renewal’ leaders might have something.

    But that wasn’t what I believed when I joined, and it was never the sell. Respect was sold as a left-wing coalition of socialists and progressives, uniting people of various religious and political backgrounds under a common ‘left of labour’ banner to provide a left-wing alternative to the parties of capitalism and war, with a green tinge. Respect was at it most exciting and successful when it drew votes and attendance from across the class, including Muslims, poverty capaigners, environmentalists, militants, trade unionists, etc. – all united in a derision of neo-liberal capitalism and the imperial wars thereof.

    I’m not taking sides. The SWP mis-sold Respect too. But they remain in Respect, campaigning for socialism. Abjol Miah and followers represent a split from socialism, a political philosophy they never advocated in the first place. Anger at the SWP means they’ve taken some socialists with them, for now.

    I’m lucky I left Bow, I’d feel a fraud campaigning for Miah’s election to parliament. I suspect others will too, if ‘Renewal’ lasts.

    Phil: the distinction you make is a constructive one. However, much of what I’ve heard and read has sounded hateful to me, and I’ve not the insight to make the distinction in the case of other people I barely know. But it has appeared quite hateful.

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  45. If Jane feels her role as Union Pres is stopping her campoaigning for a NO vote it is utterly simple, step down as predisident.

    As a question of fact she would still retain her position on the postal exec, so she has nothing to lose.

    On the “battle against Trotskism thing”. .I also have expressed the view that we need a battle againt Trotskyism, by which I mean a sustained political polemic against the mistaken views of Trotskists, with the aim of reducing their politicall influence in the movement.

    But it doesn’t mean that I think Trotskyists should be excluded, ot witch-hunted, or that Ii won’t wirk with them or find common causue, or that they don’t talk a lot of sense a lot of the time.

    I don’t see the problem, if we want a broad leftparty, why should there ne an assumption that Trotskyist ideas should be hegemonic. If that is a pre-condition of any regroupment then I wouldn’t want to take part in it.

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  46. “There are good comrades in the new ‘Renewal’ party, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. Yet some of your councillors who have defected from Respect to ‘Renewal’ are hostile towards the SWP, which is one thing, but also hostile to socialism, which is quite another.

    And your MP’s ‘battle against Trotskyism’, after praising the SWP publicly before the break-down, shows a lack of integrity and does not suggest the solidarity of a genuine socialist MP.”

    A complete load of nonsense. Which really makes me wonder why a person who makes these kinds of remarks without any evidence will not actually put a personal name to them. I have seen absolutely no evidence of hostility towards socialism from Abjol Miah, care to produce any verifiable evidence of this? Nor have I seen any evidence that George Galloway considers this to be a fight against ‘Trotskyism’. Actually, I heard him say exactly the opposite the other day.

    This really is a dishonest apologia for the SWP’s imaginary witch-hunt, which was first trumpeted as to come through the media – except it never did. After that non-event, they could not even explain the mechanisms of this fantasy witchhunt. It really is bizarre, a piece of utter fantasy so at variance with reality that anyone who tries to figure out just how this ‘witchhunt’ was waged will end up scratching their head. A witchhunt where no-one was purged or expelled or subjected to organisational measures in any way, except for those purged and expelled by the people who claim to be the victims of the witchhunt.

    If is out of Alice in Wonderland, or the King’s new clothes. People who go around talking about a non-existent witchhunt simply appear to have lost their marbles. Desperate stuff, and really sad to see intelligent people mouthing gobbledegook like this.

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  47. The question is: do we want a broad Left party that unites all of those Left of the main parties, which numbers millions, and isn’t entirely composed of avowed Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists but is friendly to the aims of all on the Left, including Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists, and due to its size gains parliamentary representation sufficient to enact socialist laws, change the course of British politics over the next thirty years, and pave the way for a global paradigm shift;

    OR

    a broad Marxist-Leninist/Trotskyist party that unites all avowed Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists, which numbers maybe two thousand, and is entirely composed of avowed Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists but excludes anyone else on the Left who might otherwise be friendly to the aims of Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists, and due to its size fails to gain parliamentary representation or even sufficient local council representation to enact any socialist measures and instead will still be selling papers on street corners in thirty years time?

    Choose wisely, comrades.

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  48. Well of course Galloway doesn’t mind allowing a few tame “poodle trots” to punch above their weight in Respect(R).

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  49. Well of course Galloway doesn’t mind allowing a few tame “poodle trots” to punch above their weight in Respect(R)

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  50. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    I posted this on the wrong blog at first. Sorry.

    ‘So you want us all to work together, except the people you don’t like?’
    No. I don’t ‘like’ or dislike anyone. This is politics, not friends reunited. Not ‘except people I don’t like’ – merely ‘except people hostile to socialism’. I wrote of building a mass socialist party. People hostile to socialism will surely not choose to participate.

    ‘Where will the buck stop?’
    Ideally? With all the socialists in a mass socialist party, and all those hostile to socialism in parties suited to their philosophy. That choice is theirs, and not my business!

    ‘you probably want to get rid of GG’
    Isn’t Galloway a socialist? He has his moments, doesn’t he? If he wants to fight for socialism within a mass socialist party (I hope and believe he might) then he should certainly hold membership of the party, and his standing for election would probably result. I think you overestimate the extent to which we disagree.

    ‘then Salma Yaqoob’
    I’m not an expert on Salma Yacoob. But it’s not for me to decide who joins a mass socialist party anyway, so I needn’t be. If you support the basic idea of socialism, then like me you’ll want to join a mass socialist party that can make a difference.

    ‘then Ken Loach’
    Again, I’m not an expert on these people. They need to make their own party choices though. I don’t feel qualified to advise them on joining any political party.

    ‘then everyone else’
    Well that one’s way off. Nearly all the Respect activists, members, and supporters I have known have been enthusiastic about socialist politics, so they should all be inside.

    ‘why not just go to the SWP conference?’
    Because I decline to join the SWP for various reasons I’ve covered before.

    ‘You won’t have to be choosy about who you don’t like’
    I’m more interested in political debate than liking people.

    ‘as no-one likes the SWP any more.’
    They seem to in Preston, as said elsewhere.

    ‘The question is: do we want a broad Left party that unites all of those Left of Labour, which numbers millions, and isn’t entirely composed of avowed Marxist-Leninists but is friendly to the aims of all on the Left, including Marxist-Leninists, and due to its size gains parliamentary representation sufficient to enact socialist laws, change the course of British politics over the next thirty years, and pave the way for a global paradigm shift’
    Yes, I think so. Marxist-Leninists is too specific. I’m calling for a mass socialist party in which all socialists are active and represented. I don’t equate ‘socialism’ with ‘Marxist-Leninism’. The latter I consider a subset of the former. Semantics, eh? Where I may disagree with you (I’m speculating here) is on the question of the potential success for social(ist) reformism. I think revolutionary change may be necessary. But that’s just fine, because we can all have that debate ad infinitum in the mass socialist party, once we form it. My proposal, for what it’s worth, would be that we promote socialism in all ways. Winning elections, marching, protesting, etc. Constitutional action to makes lives better for our class, combined with direct activism to back it up. Not unlike the Poplar rebel councillors which Lavalette and Galloway (now apparently on opposing sides) have both written about.

    ‘OR a broad Marxist-Leninist party that unites all avowed Marxist-Leninists, which numbers maybe two thousand, and is entirely composed of avowed Marxist-Leninists but excludes anyone else on the Left who might otherwise be friendly to the aims of Marxist-Leninists, and due to its size fails to gain parliamentary representation or even sufficient local council representation to enact any socialist measures and instead will still be selling papers on street corners in thirty years time?’
    That sounds like a revolutionary vanguard in my English. We have those. The SWP is the biggie. These should all be included in the mass socialist party and participate in the democracy actively. They will anyway, they’re a self-motivated bunch of comrades in my experience.

    ‘Choose wisely, comrades.’
    Yes, let’s. I don’t think we disagree that much, unless you want the mass party to include people who aren’t socialists and are even hostile to socialism, which I hope you do not. I don’t believe it’s necessary to suppress the explicitly socialist nature of a party in order to attract anti-socialist support and leaders. That’s the New Labour project, surely? Now that New Labour has abandoned all socialism I am sure there is the potential for an electorally successful socialist party. Besides which, non-socialists are already catered for. There are already electorally successful parties (among those who still vote) for liberals and conservatives. I don’t think the ‘democratic deficit’ lies there. It is socialists who are disenfranchised by the current political convergence. Liberals and conservatives are over-represented already.

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  51. jonny favourite Avatar
    jonny favourite

    The call to arms doesn’t seem to have galvanised all SWP members, Pat Stack and Julies Waterson are notable by their absence on the petition.Neither are independent forces and groups choosing between the socialist version of RESPECT or the communalist version of RESPECT, the youth organsiation Skaters Against the War has officially resigned from Respect and will not affiliate to the Revived one either.

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  52. Jonny – which version is which please?

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  53. Will the real RESPECT please stand up?

    “I’m Spartacus”
    “No, I’m Spartacus”
    “No, I’M Spartacus”

    + the old Judean People’s Front thing, etc etc

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  54. The Tower Hamlets Rat Avatar
    The Tower Hamlets Rat

    ‘+ the old Judean People’s Front thing, etc etc’
    Indeed.

    Lavalette might be SWP, but he’s always been supportive of Galloway as an individual, and supposedly they were mates in Glasgow Labour many moons ago. Lavalette’s defence of Galloway after he appeared in the Big Brother house went further than the SWP whip required. I believe their is genuine respect and affection there. I not suggesting potential defection to the ‘Renewal’ party. I just think Lavalette, while a discplined SWP member, would have called for more measured action than the CC did.

    Lavalette could be the key to this mess. The divorce papers aren’t signed yet!

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  55. And I don’t see Mark Steel or China Mieville either, or celebrity supporters like Jeremy Hardy and Michael Rosen. But not to worry; I’m sure Gilad Atzmon still backs them.

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  56. Is the retitling of the SR meeting another olive branch?

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  57. chjh, more a reponse to a developing situation.

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  58. And my branch has listed a non-existent SWP member on the list of appeal signatories!

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  59. I wouldn’t be surprised if, peppered among the names, there are fake signatories on that appeal form. They probably mobilised people to put some fakes in here and there to try and at least get it past a 1000 signatures.

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  60. BTW before people flame, that was just a joke. I didn’t mean to imply the SWP CC have ordered branches to mobilise anyone to put up fake names – this would have been far too easy to leak to anyone on the outside, and would have earned them no end of grief.

    However it is true that many people who have signed up as “Respect supporters” have neither now nor have they ever been active in Respect. SWP does not = Respect.

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  61. Lots of people have unquestionably signed it twice. My take on this is that it is not deliberate but it certainly smacks of the thing being wafted under people’s noses in the pub and getting signed so that x and y can get back urgently to their discussion of who’s going to win the Premiership.

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  62. Non-SWP Respect socialist Avatar
    Non-SWP Respect socialist

    Indeed, my name appeared twice. I emailed to point it out, and one was removed pretty much immediately.

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  63. I think it what happened in my branch was that someone was ordered to collect names – I know this as she asked for mine – and e-mailed them in. As a new comrade to the branch, she possibly got the name wrong
    . I doubt that the leadership would be deliberately putting false names on the appeal, but it does highlight that people have been signing under some pressure, in front of others in a test of loyalty. I don’t think that the appeal can be taken too seriously as an indication of widespread support for the SWP witchunt position

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  64. I tried to put my name on twice, but nothing happened. I haven’t checked today to see if it has appeared yet.
    I would be one of those ‘supporters’ people are wary of too. I did join but let my subs lapse as poverty hit, although I worked at getting GG elected by poonding the streets of TH.

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  65. Liam, your reply to my question about the reitling of the SR meeting reminded me of the joke about the idela parliamentary answer – it’s short, it’s true, and it contains absolutely no useful information. In what sense is the situation developing: do SR no longer believe that the SWP leadership are wrecking Respect; do they still believe it, but think it a tactical mistake to say so; or are there discussions about the correct line to take?

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  66. It feels like a tactical choice to me: SWP people are very defensive, and it won’t hope to develop discussions with them. Also, the SWP’s intention was not to wreck Respect, only to drive out those who disagree with them, and they think that;’s a big difference.

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  67. Yes we act to drive others away of course, that’s what the SWP teaches us to do or if we can’t then we just try to control everyone. At junior activist school in the SWP we are told to bash people’s heads in if they disagree with us, though I prefer thought control pills to be honest, though I can’t get that f**ker Liam to swallow them.

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