Congratulations to Bristol SWP on its impressive turnout at this evening’s (Wednesday’s) Respect branch meeting. Out of the 42 people there 35 were SWP members. They’d come along to back the SWP’s resolution calling for the steering group, elected at a general meeting a couple of months ago, to stand down and allow itself to be replaced by one more in tune with the SWP’s world view. Of course you could make a case that the steering group should have welcomed this resurgence of interest in Respect and graciously offered to step aside. Or you could say that if it looks like a coup and smells like a coup then it’s an undemocratic farce. That was the conclusion of the non-SWP members, all but one of whom walked out. This leaves the SWP in a “unity coalition” with one other person in Bristol.

You would have to try pretty hard to find a more egregious example of cackhanded sectarianism. OK we’re talking about the British far left so maybe you don’t have to look that hard. What were they trying to achieve? The only thing they demonstrated is that they are able to pack a meeting and piss everyone off. As a route to building a mass, left of Labour party it’s probably not going to work. It also  gives an ugly illustration why no one is likely to be willing to trust the SWP in any sort of regroupment project. It’s not possible to build a mutually trusting working relationship with an organisation while its leaders and many of its members see this type of student union buffoonery as acceptable socialist politics. Here is a description from someone who was there.

Well, I’ve just walked the dog round the block and have calmed down enough to write this post without too much foul language in it. There’ll be no more happy clappy unified meeting posts from me in Bristol, that’s for sure. I’ve just come from the shortest meeting I think I’ve ever been in – a Bristol Respect Members meeting – 47 people at it (the biggest we’ve ever had I think) – 36 of whom were SWP, most rarely at Respect meetings.

A bit of background (other than national stuff of course…) – two months ago, the Bristol Respect AGM democratically elected the new steering group for the year – 4 SWP, 5 independents. Since then two of the SWPers have left the SWP – one of course being Jerry Hicks. We had a fairly acrimonious pre-conferences meeting between the steering group and the delegates and observers – originally called to warn people who weren’t expecting it about some of the divisions in Respect and that the conference might be a bumpy ride. Of course by the time we had the meeting all that had gone out of the window, and some of the delegates had decided that the legitimacy of the SWP led conference was in doubt and that they would attend the Respect Renewal one. We were all still talking about unity and how to move forward together at this point – although I’m pretty sure no-one actually believed it even then.

Last week – oh what surprise – the day after the local SWP meeting – we received a motion to go to members for the members meeting today. This was the resolution:

This meeting resolves to:

1. Continue the work of building an effective electoral alternative to New Labour by recognising the decisions of 4th Respect annual conference held on the 17 November 2007 as the basis of ongoing work in the coming year.

This meeting instructs the Bristol RESPECT steering group to

1. Publicise this motion to all Bristol members.

2. Publicise, organise and build for a General Meeting for all RESPECT members on developing RESPECT along the lines outlined above, inviting the National Secretary to attend and outline current perspectives on Thursday 13 December.

3. Call for nominations for the Bristol steering group so as to take forward the RESPECT project. Nominations to be received by post or e mail to the secretary of Bristol RESPECT by no later than 4pm Tuesday 11 December and be proposed and seconded by registered members of RESPECT.

4. Hold the elections for the Steering group by a show of hands of members registered with the national office by 7 December 2007, at the meeting on the 13 December 2007.

5. Thereafter hold monthly meetings of RESPECT to which all members and supporters are welcomed.

I won’t share with you the expletives I used when I got this, you’re all people of the world, I’m sure you can think of some. Basically it was a direct attack on the steering group of two months standing.

So we’ve had the members meeting. Why was it so short? Because it was a coup and had no validity and so we walked out. In his role as convenor Jerry read a long statement, a bit of which I’ll include here –

Though its sets out that ’this meeting believes in a broad, inclusive and pluralistic Respect’, the real reason for this motion is quite different. It seeks to legitimise (shore up) the conference held on the 17rth November. It is no coincidence that it came just 24hrs after (yet another) Bristol SWP meeting addressed by a leading SWP national figure to discuss Respect The motion may well have been scribed not in Bristol but in SWP offices in London. It was moved and seconded by SWP members. It notes the election at conference of a local SWP member to the National Committee. It invites the National Secretary to Bristol – John Rees SWP. It calls for nominations and elections to the steering committee only two months after the properly constituted AGM. It is nothing more than a coup, scriptedby, moved by, seconded by and already decided by the SWP.

It is however inextricably linked to conference and that means that along with the now disputed conference it is not valid.

When we walked out there were people shouting –‘Don’t go Jerry’ ‘stay and have the discussion’ – what are they on? What discussion? They had packed the meeting – what discussion were they intending to have? We left them to discuss with themselves. As far as most of the current steering group and non SWP supporters are concerned the status quo stands – the steering group of Bristol Respect is as was elected in September.

And what have they wrecked here in Bristol? In 2006 Jerry Hicks came second in the local elections having come from nowhere, a much vaunted triumph, proof that Respect could win votes in white working class areas. Whilst we could have been accused of communalism – Jer’s mum still lives in Lockleaze and most of the people down her street had Respect posters up by the time of the election – it was a fantastic campaign, SWP candidate, SWP campaign manager working alongside the mixed steering group and many others. It bought in new members, the Lockleaze ones are currently involved in a vibrant campaign about new housing developments in the area.

 In 2007 Paulette North came third in Easton, our campaign forced the labour candidate to fight on Respects terms against the war and privatisation of public services, and the much loathed liberal grandee who had held the ward lost his seat. But it’s not all about elections, the Bristol Respect banner has been at every major demonstration in the city, and quite few minor ones. Our members, SWP and non-SWP have gained city wide respect for our involvement in local education, health and public services campaigns amongst others. I don’t want to sound like one of those ‘talk it up’ SWP rewritings of history, but we did some good stuff together that made a difference to people’s lives in this city. That’s what they’ve wrecked, because you can be pretty sure that won’t happen with the SWP controlled version of Respect we left behind in that meeting tonight. How long before the next sterile meeting on gun crime with SWP talking to SWP and the one bewildered person that walked in off the street. How will that make a difference?

Well – f**k them. We
are going to sit back and wait to see the outcome of the Electoral Commission or whoever it is that is deciding who owns the name. I hope we win, then we can continue the work that we have been doing – of building a truly democratic and left organisation that will challenge the mainstream parties at every nasty twisted turn and give people in Bristol something to vote for that has some meaning and some hope. We will meet informally in the meantime…..

Gadget Queen, Bristol

 

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172 responses to “Bristol SWP coup smashes Respect branch”

  1. interesting concept of undemocratic

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  2. And round we go again. Yes, if one organised tendency has a numerical majority within a coalition, that tendency can always win whatever votes it wants to, entirely democratically. Which means that building that coalition requires

    a) building it on the basis that it consists entirely of the large group and those close enough to it to be happy with that group having a permanent veto

    or, if that’s not satisfactory,

    b) an all-out effort to recruit to the coalition and built its independent structures (as advocated by SR in the case of RESPECT)

    or, if that’s not possible

    c) massive self-denying restraint on the part of the large group.

    Option a) makes a mockery of the concept of ‘coalition’. Of the other two, option c) is very much less satisfactory than b), since it removes the immediate threat of a large-group veto without actually making it impossible: the gun isn’t on the table, but it can always be taken back out of the drawer. As we’ve just seen.

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  3. How many non SWPers walked out and what do they intend to do?

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  4. 6 people walked out is that correct?

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  5. An almost textbook example of what’s known as “capturing yourself”. Years of work has left the SWP in Bristol down some members and with precisely one ally. Congratulations are due.

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  6. leftinternationalist Avatar
    leftinternationalist

    for every supporter of galloway there were five opponents of his sectarian split. but liam thinks those who had the support of a mere 16.6%of the branch should hold all the officers posts. and he has the gall to claim to be a democrat why exactly did these 7 socilalists not win the argument. why were these officers unable to recruit to the brach. galloways magagnificent seven will scatter to the winds. today bristol tommorow the world. well engand anyhway. as galloway discovered to his cost when unite against facism denied him a platform he is in serios troulbe without the gravitataional atraction of the swp there is nothing left for respect renewal to do but complain. and that is what they will do every time the swp uses its relative organisational strength against its former allies . my heart bleeds for thm

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  7. It ceases to be a ‘United front of special kind’.
    Its now just a ‘front’

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  8. there is nothing left for respect renewal to do but complain. and that is what they will do every time the swp uses its relative organisational strength against its former allies

    Well, yes, because RESPECT was set up in the first place precisely on the understanding that the SWP wouldn’t do this. And – although it may surprise you – this self-denying ordinance actually suited the SWP leadership at the time, since it enabled them to build something bigger and broader than the SWP itself. (As in, much bigger and broader, not 1/35th bigger and broader.) They’re sawing through the branch they’re sitting on, I’m afraid.

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  9. Oi, Liam. Don’t forget to post the report when you get back from the pub!

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  10. Leftinternationalist – I presume you have to call yourself that because no-one would other wise have the faintest idea you were one from your politics.

    Thanks for the full and frank admission that the SWP has abandoned the slightest pretence of building a broad pluralist party in favour of sectarian party building of its own organisation.

    The “gravitational attraction” and “relative organisational strength” of a disciplined small party is all that matters isn’t it – forget the thousands (if not more) of independent socialists who are desparate to organise a left alternative to Labour.

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  11. leftinternationalist stated:
    “as galloway discovered to his cost when unite against facism denied him a platform he is in serios trouble without the gravitataional atraction of the swp”

    NO – the SWP full timers on the UAF platform in Oxford prevented George from speaking.

    And just what have these 35 SWP members being doing the best part of the last four years if they have hardly been seen at a Respect meeting, if at all? With that many active Socialist members as the ‘branch core’ + others I could have built one of the largest and best Respect branches in the country by now – shame on them!

    Daily what was once a politcal party respected by many outside its ranks is becoming a sectarian rump whoes new identity, now the mask has slipped, will be known by all on the left – how sad that the SWP CC is leading its many good members up this dead end.

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  12. leftinternationalist Avatar
    leftinternationalist

    16.6% of britsol respect deman ed their god given right to control the branch. and that is how democracy should work . how do we know that the 84.4% of the branch were all swp members? just because galloways suppoters say so we have to believe them do we. cos i dont necsasearily believe them . and even they the 84.4 % are all swp members maybe they were so successfful at convincing the majoiry of respect in bristol that they decided to join the swp. and even if they were all swp members before the split why did galloways supporters prove to useless at recruting to the branch. is it the swp Members fault that galloways fans are useless at recruting and organising. i would argue that it is galloways supporters who have retarded the growh of respect. galloways appearances on big borther. his voting against abortions. he refuslal to take a workers wage. his contempt for democrcy . galloway has been an ablatross around the necks ot the swp. now that the swp have gotten shot of this charlant repsect can move forward. in the univestities in the trade unions in the anti war movement. in the antiracist movement the swp have strenth in numbers at least realative to the isg and galloway. thy have organisational cohension. galloways auppprters are all over the place. respect reneawl has no future. may it rest in pease

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  13. “he has the gall to claim to be a democrat why exactly did these 7 socilalists not win the argument. ”

    How do you win an argument against a bloc vote?

    Liam, well done for posting this. It’s a really good report, and it shows the calibre of people the SWP has lost.

    Remember, Alex Callinicos called Jerry Hicks “dishonest” and Jo Benefield “hysterical” (always the woman who are called that). No attempt to win them back, no one from the CC calling them and asking them to reconsider. As with me, as with so many others.

    People are proud of the contribution the Bristol people made to the Renewal conference, and of how many of them came to it. I think we’ve got a load of work to do, but I think we’ve got some brilliant people to do it.

    And in time, we will be doing it with the brilliant people who remain in the SWP.

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  14. The biggest feature of people arguing in support of the SWP is their total inability to argue without entirely distorting the points made by the other side. Just about everything “leftinternationalist” says in the post before mine is a fabrication, a lie or a distortion. There is nothing that an honest debater can argue with there.

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  15. Lets be honest – alot / most of them (swp) are kinda
    sados / kidos. Not to mind cc tanked up with M!? “traitors” (no need to be conspiracy theorist / just see whats going on / being Irish a help)

    Enjoy the struggle
    (love the sinner)

    Towards Socialist Victory
    (can anyone get them unions to understanding internationalism -and our world struggle)

    BrMcc

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  16. “The biggest feature of people arguing in support of the SWP is their total inability to argue without entirely distorting the points made by the other side.”

    What a larf!

    sorry, brother, at the RR rally it was argued that you were going to go in and take over and split branches. Now you were out-voted. That’s how democracy works – if you can’t rally the numbers to support you, you’re in a bit of a bind, aren’t you? The SWP had to suck it up when they were outvoted in TH on the Shadwell candidate – they at least had the principles not to whine about it or walk out. They campaigned for the guy they voted against. And the Bristol branch steering committee supported the split rally by RR, seems reason enough for loyalists to want to remove them. You can’t really be surprised are you?

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  17. Its the same test at a local level as the national level. Can 35 members of the SWP form the basis of a broad, left-of-Labour SWP Respect party in Bristol? Or will the smaller group of 7 that they successfully ejected from their branch form a better basis for a broad left-of-Labour RespectRenewal party in Bristol?

    Want my prediction? The SWP will be fatally divided betwen building and recruiting to the SWP, selling Socialist Worker, combined now with a mind-bogglingly bad reputation for helping to bust up not one, Respect, not two, Respect and the Socialist Alliance, but three left parties, Respect, Socialist Alliance and SSP. Add to this their grim determination to staff and control their more succesful united fronts, StWC and UAF. This leaves them neither the time, members, resources or politics to build Respect.

    Meanwhile the smaller groups, in Bristol and elsewhere, are single-mindedly committed to building a broad left-of-labour Respect, no split loyalties to encumber. And hardened by the experience of the SWP fallout developing the politics to build an organisation that is plural and participative. It won;t be easy but the idea that it is only the SWP capable of building up a network of local broad left-of-Labour party branches and initiatives simlpy reveals a startling lack of political imagination. With core activists in Bristil of the experience and politics of Jerry Hicks and Jo Benefield why would anybody doubt their ability to get something really impresive going there?

    Looking forward to hearing news of the growth of RespectRenewal in Bristol, and posting news of RespectRenewal in Haringey – which a small but growing group of us has already started to organise.

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  18. From the SWP motion: [i]”Hold the elections for the Steering group by a show of hands of members registered with the national office by 7 December 2007, at the meeting on the 13 December 2007.”[/i]

    I thought this was interesting.

    So the previously ‘phantom’ SWP members now have 10 days to get their subs in and the election will be by show of hands rather than secret ballot, to make sure no-one deviates from the ‘Party line’?

    Truly this is heading towards the politics of Healyism.

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  19. Meanwhile in South Birmingham almost identical events took place, except that it was a bigger meeting (about 60 -70 with about 15 SWP and friends), and when the swp and supporters lost a vote to hear a report back from both conferences, then got explicitly excluded from the new committee we stayed in the room and didn’t moan.

    Renewal lost the vote in Bristol. Get over it. We lost the vote in South Brum. We’re already over it.

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  20. Here in Southwark the SWP are avoiding conflict quite well, by inviting only their friends and contacts to a ‘report-back’ meeting this evening, which they are organising over the heads of the branch officials. They may as well carry out their coup at their own branch meeting, and save themselves the cost of the room.

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  21. Dear comrades,

    I, and many others, felt that opposition to the wars on Iraq and Lebanon were the burning issues which superseded all other former political disagreements. But things have moved on now

    I travelled with George into south Lebanon following the July war on Lebanon and found him a warm man and very brave. I was also part of the team that exposed the doctored documents produced to discredit George by the US senate.

    So I feel I have the right to make some comments.

    I confess that I went to the Respect Renewal conference with a heavy heart. But left feeling deeply outraged. The insults and outright lies against us where very hard to take.

    I maintain that this is a political disagreement (between reform and revolution), and with all these things, we should agree to disagree and move on.

    To do this there needs to be a general recognition that despite all the cries of “foul play”, at the end of the day you miscalculated the level of your support inside the coalition.

    I think you have also been badly advised over disagreements inside the SWP. The ones GG called “Russian dolls” where those most committed to the project (like me)… and the ones who were unhappy were those who never trusted him (the “I told you so brigade”).

    I feel that you are now coming up against a grim reality: that the SWP has the majority of people on our side and you have failed to mobilise or inspire your supporters.

    I suspect you will all find your breaking points over the next few months —especially now you have sacrificed your paper.

    But I wish you all the best in your new project.

    regards
    Simon Assaf

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  22. This is a very interesting concession from Simon Assaf: “I maintain that this is a political disagreement (between reform and revolution), ”

    Becasue it shows the complete failure ot understand the politics of building a broad party in the present period by the SWP.

    Revolution is not on the current agenda, but arguing for class struggle politics with a left social democratic party is,

    So Simon concedeing that the SWP subordinate the development of such a broad party to their unnunaced idea of revolution and their priviliged role as the vanguard of that revolution is indeed conceding that the issue is about the SWP’s seeking to control Respect.

    Note that Siimon is basically agreeing about the cause of the politicall split with us, and disagreeing with the argument being put by JOhn Rees, Seymour, game et al – that the spolt wass about a rightward pressure of electoralism.

    ( a rightwards pressure that had no manifestations in politicies)

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  23. Here is my offer to anyone who supports the SWP’s line in this discussion. Submit a guest post of up to 800 words explaining how relatively large democratic centralist organisations should operate in broader formations. Not one word will be edited.

    To what extent should they use their organising capacity and enforce their discipline to determine the outcomes of votes on questions of tactics and principle?

    How can they allow the broader formation to develop its own political culture and make it attractive both to experienced militants and people who are new to politics?

    What is the purpose of the Marxist current’s involvement and what is its long term view of the project?

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  24. Incidently, with the report of the Bristol meeting just substitute “Socialist Allaince” for “Respect” and that report could have been written word for word three or four years ago.

    “leftinternationalist” is being very foolish. I know the left in Bristol really well.

    It was interesting that the very first Bristol SWP member to put their name on the “witchhunt” petition is so uninterested in sustained work with others that he never once attended his local anti-poll tax union meetings, despite the fact that the meetings took place litteraly twenty yards from his house, and organised hundreds of people around where he lived.

    And Prinkipo exile is astute to notice this:

    [i]”Hold the elections for the Steering group by a show of hands of members registered with the national office by 7 December 2007, at the meeting on the 13 December 2007.”[/i]

    So they were still signing up people specifically to take part in this meeting.

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  25. It’s bad enough to alienate and lose militants like Jerry Hicks and Jo Benefield. It’s even worse to pillory and insult them, as the SWP CC has done. How concerned are SWP cadres about that? Not a jot – at least, not in public. Can an organisation that specialises in burning bridges rather than building them ever be instrumental in constructing a new pole of attraction to the left of Labour? Hardly. Packing a meeting to outvote the opposition is easy for the biggest group on the left; crowing about it afterwards simply compounds the error. Who’s going to trust the SWP now?

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  26. If Simon is right it such an indictment of Respect and the role of the SWP inside it. Respect was meant to be a coalition, involving revolutionaries with reformists. Does he really think there are more revolutionaries than reformists? So what does that say about Respect, with its 2,500 members? That the SWP had a majority of members in an organisation smaller than itself? That seems, for all the successes of Respect, the mark of its failure.

    I’m quite impressed that Bristol SWP can mobilise 35 members into Respect and to this meeting. Keep it up comrades, inspire us with your achievements!

    Simon is generous with his best wishes. I think we should be generous in return in best wishes for an even-more SWP dominated ‘Respect’ that can be more than an SWP front for electoral activity.

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  27. […] vanguard Marxist ideologues of SWP continue doing a stellar job of destroying of what was once a solid and promising left […]

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  28. I think you have also been badly advised over disagreements inside the SWP. The ones GG called “Russian dolls” where those most committed to the project (like me)… and the ones who were unhappy were those who never trusted him (the “I told you so brigade”).

    No, I think we always knew there was an anti-RESPECT tendency within the SWP. I think the hope – the gamble – was that there was a third group of SWP cadre, who were genuinely committed to building a plural and outward-looking (as well as non-revolutionary) RESPECT. I don’t think we can be sure yet that that gamble hasn’t paid off.

    I feel that you are now coming up against a grim reality: that the SWP has the majority of people on our side and you have failed to mobilise or inspire your supporters.

    I’m not going to type out my previous comment again. Just page up – it’s the second comment in this thread.

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  29. Well if there was such a third tendency the ‘fuck off’ t-shirts, the ‘russian dolls’ comments and the increasing tendency to argues that ‘the swp have been undermining us from within for 3 years’ (which i heard last night at South Brum) is really helpful to that tendency. Not.

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  30. So if my maths are correct, an ‘old’ steering group majority of five ‘independents’ and two ex-SWP members managed to win six people to walk out of the meeting. Good to see they mobilised all their supporters so successfully.

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  31. Isn’t it rather disingenuous to accuse the SWP of splitting the group, after members of the Steering Group had taken part in an organised split from Respect and set up a rival conference and a rival organisation ?

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  32. Elephant in the Room Avatar
    Elephant in the Room

    ‘“leftinternationalist” is being very foolish. I know the left in Bristol really well.’
    Hahaha. All of us? Are you sure, Andy? A proud boast. That’s made my day.

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  33. Elephant in the Room, on November 29th, 2007 at 3:44 pm Said:
    ‘“leftinternationalist” is being very foolish. I know the left in Bristol really well.’
    Hahaha. All of us? Are you sure, Andy? A proud boast. That’s made my day.

    Well I have been active in the labour movement in the Bristol area, and more recently Swindon since 1973. I have been active in the Labour Party, the SWP, trade unions, miners’ support groups, anti-poll tax, peace movement, student politics, I still go to Bristol regularly for trade union and Stop the War activity, and I currently know a lot of the non-SWP people involved in the anti-war and palestinian solidairty movement.

    So yes I know a lot of people, I think I know all but three or two of the names from Bristol who signed the witchhunt petition. And generally I know the contours of the left in Bristol.

    Left Iinternationalists description of what (s)he imagined might have happened in Britsol respect was incredible to anyone who knows the city.

    That is who I am, ,and what I have done? What have you done? Who are you?

    Of course you don’t use your real name, so I don’t know who you are. But if you have been politically active during the last 30 years in Bristol then we probably have met.

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  34. Well if all Respect can deliver after several years of work in one of the most important cities in the country is 42 people, 35 of them SWPers it seems to me this “broad party” tactic is a bit of a failure.

    Are the 6 people who left to form Respect Renewal going to decare themselves the “real broad party” ?

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  35. Elephant in the Room Avatar
    Elephant in the Room

    Oh I see Andy, you meant ‘your left’. The left engaged with the groups, campaigns, etc. you support or have some involvement with.

    I promise you that that is a fraction of the left in Bristol, or any other city or area. You clearly know a great many ‘left’ people engaged with or active in the things you list. I know a great many ‘left’ people (socialists, red anarchists, left-leaning people I can’t label) who are either disillusioned or for other reasons not engaged with the groups you know.

    In fact the vast majority of us are so. That’s the great problem. Most people, even most socialists, aren’t inside the bubble some on here seem to believe representative of ‘the left’. And it’s really not.

    ‘That is who I am, ,and what I have done? What have you done? Who are you?’
    If you really think this is about you and me, then I think you’re way off. I’m bored of giving details of who I am and what I have (and haven’t) done. I’ve repreatedly answered questions from you and others on this subject, but I don’t share your enthusiasm for it. I find myself quite an uninteresting subject.

    I’d rather talk about what we should all do to ensure people like you, me, your active comrades, and my inactive socialist aquaintances you almost certainly do not know (no comment on you – you’d need to have spent a lot of time on the streets of Bristol to know them all) can all work together against the Fas/Con/Lib/NuLab enemy we share.

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  36. chjh – they walked out to join all the others who want to build a broad and democratic socialist left who had either not got involved because they were suspicious of the SWP or had left Respect because they were tired of waiting for the SWP to have ther branch meeting to tell evryone what to do.

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  37. Isn’t it rather disingenuous to accuse the SWP of splitting the group, after members of the Steering Group had taken part in an organised split from Respect and set up a rival conference and a rival organisation ?

    No, the rival organisation was only set up after the disciplinary proceedings which led to the expulsion of the Chair and Vice-Chair… but I’m forgetting, they haven’t been expelled. No, the Chair and Vice-Chair of the organisation have been replaced, by the decision of a conference whose validity the Chair and Vice-Chair didn’t recognise.

    I think Linda and Salma’s letter of 31st October was a warning sign which the other side really should have heeded. Going ahead with the conference after that put RESPECT/SWP on very thin constitutional ice.

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  38. I’d still like to know what the non-SWPers who left in disgust intend to do?
    Do they have supporters they can ally with to form an RR group?
    I

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  39. Moun misses the obvious point about the Bristol and Birmingham meetings: the isolation of the SWP at both. In one, with predominantly SWP members in attendance, the non-SWP members walk out in disgust, leaving the SWP to talk to themselves. In another, with predominantly non-SWP members in attendance, (90+, I counted), the SWP were completely isolated, leaving SWP members to talk to themselves.

    Despite the huge opportunities Respect offers for socialists in South Birmingham, the SWP have proved incapable of understanding and relating to it, and have destroyed any political capital they may once have had accrued within it.

    In this part of the world, reputation is everything. The SWP have shredded theirs for the simple reason that people will have no truck with their sectarianism towards George and Salma. But rather than address the politics of how they have got themselves into this mess, rather than tackle their own leadership, rather than admit any mistakes, all that most SWP members seem to be capable of is knee-jerk defensiveness and burying their heads in the sand.

    The reputation of the SWP deserves better. It has been badly let down by those who claim to be its modern day protectors and custodians.

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  40. I was posting on this blog because I respect the tone and manner which discussions are had (and hold some affinity with the SR comrades).

    Unfortunately AN seems to have jumped in. No disrespect to you Andy but if I wanted to have a discussion with you then I would post on your blog—but I don’t, and I won’t.

    I’m am more than happy to continue with Liam et al.

    regards
    Simon Assaf

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  41. ‘I maintain that this is a political disagreement (between reform and revolution)’

    Eh?! That’s a first for me. Please explain…

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  42. No thank you Ger. I’m sorry but I don’t want to have a discussion with you, no offence, but I feel we should respect Liam’s blog.

    regards,
    Simon Assaf

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  43. Simon

    Given that the fraught tone of debate on the SU blog is almost entirely due to a deleiberate trolling campaign to disrupt debate, (and given we have the IP addresses we know that includes some senior people in the SWP CC), it is a bit rich for an SWP member to complain about it.

    And if I am now anathamatised, then it is going to make the Stop the War steering committee meetings fun isn;t it!

    I don’t see how you can decline to debate an idea once it is on the table, what are you going to so, pretend it hasn’t been said? But everyone else here has read it as well.

    Brilliant stategy comrade. Do you think that socialists only debate with people they like?

    Like

  44. Simon

    You are hilarious, you won’t debate with me or Ger, becasue you respect Liam.

    Do you do stand up? we could book you for a fund raiser?

    Like

  45. Don’t you have to through reform to get to revolution?

    So starting from a solely revolutionary viewpoint of party organisation, short of a pre-revolutionary situation, is ‘ultra-left’ and almost defines you as being confined to being a small far-left group of sects that don’t relate to the possibility of working with the great majority of workers whose outlook is a vague left reformism.
    Cliff (after Trotsky) said that revolutionaries have to be the best reformists in order to gain any cred. (or SLT)
    If that doesn’t lead to a pre-rev situation, which it most certainly won’t, then it does lead to the greater support of workers in struggle and hopefully gaining their support.
    However sucking up to TU officials, without connecting with the interests of R & F workers, only leads to accomadating to them and moving to the right. Hence the Jane Loftus position of non-opposition to the CWU deal.
    However I don’t hear any criticism of that from SWP bloggers !
    Maybe I missed it ?
    I think comrade Simon Assaf has to look closer to home in order to see the shortsightedness of such a strategy, so very very often an SWP target in bygone days.

    Like

  46. Ah, amid all the other chatter I missed Liam’s interesting question:

    “How can they allow the broader formation to develop its own political culture and make it attractive both to experienced militants and people who are new to politics?”

    I must decline the 800 words, but we had a similar question posed to us in Lebanon when the IS and FI comrades (yes we worked well together!) began to rebuild the left in co-operation with the Communist Students.

    In a word, democracy. Its was the only thing we could offer. But of course we had very few experienced militants following the terrible losses of the civil war. However by remaining fanatical about democratic debate etc we managed to win some of the older Communists and keep many of the youngsters.

    regards
    SimonA

    Like

  47. Simon I have no objection to you debating with Andy, Ger or anyone else here. Well except maybe Jim from Birmingham.

    Andy is a regular visitor and he can confirm that I have deleted some of his remarks when I have found them to have overstepped the mark so there is no need to worry about an uncomradely tone.

    My offer of a guest post to anyone who wants to explain the SWP’s methodology and conceptions still stands. I’d rather been hoping that Canadien would take up the offer. One of the reasons there is no much speculation about the SWPs motives is that there is no clear, public statement on its attitude to how an organisation that considers itself democratic centralist should function in something like Respect.

    Like

  48. Deat Liam,
    I prefer to discuss on this blog cause its “far from the madding crowd” (so to speak). Anyway I have to confess I don’t read their posts.

    I actually think your blog has posed some good questions and I’m interested in unpicking some of these. Maybe the atmosphere isn’t right at the moment.

    many regards
    SimonA
    (PS If you are interested in what’s happening in Lebanon at the moment we run a blog at http://sursock.blogspot.com)

    Like

  49. So by Simon’s own admission he doesn’t read posts that out an alternative point of view.

    Come back Cyril Smith and Cliff Slaughter, we have found a new home for you.

    Like

  50. Is something wrong with the SUN blog, because I can’t find it.

    Like

  51. Let’s hope nothing has happened to Socialist Unity or the left will be doomed forever!!!!!!

    Andy where are you – we are having withdrawal symptoms from all that left unity your site inspires in us!!!

    LOL.

    Like

  52. Nothing wrong:

    http://www.socialistunity.com/

    Perhaps we are getting so many hits the server is struggling.

    ;o)

    Like

  53. clicked your link Andy. It is still not working. Does no one wlse have this problem.

    Like

  54. It looks like the Respect split has re-energised both sides. Here are some events listed in this week’s SW as Respect meetings in London, Manchester and there are more in Birmingham and Kent. The pitiful thing is that every advertised named speaker is an SWP fulltimer. Do you laugh or cry?

    Student Respect conference
    The politics of fighting climate change
    Pakistan – what’s going on?
    Who takes the rap for gun and knife crime?

    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13626

    Like

  55. Don’t worry Simon. I’m not offended. The general way these things work though is that if you are going to post something that says the debate inside Respect is really ‘a political disagreement (between reform and revolution)’ it is not unreasonable to ask that you explain yourself. Because I am sure I am not the only one who has not the faintest idea what you are talking about. If it makes it any easier, imagine you are pitching your argument to them, instead of Andy and me.

    Like

  56. It might have already been asked here (I haven’t read all the comments) but do you actually know if the 35 members were really all SWP? For example, I am not in the SWP but I am sure to anyone hostile to the SWP I would be labelled as one of them, because I support them in this dispute.

    I suspect that not all 35 people were in the SWP but you are embarrassed that you do not have the level of support you thought you had inside Respect (as Simon has pointed out) and so this is the only way you can explain it away – while also trying to perceive this as SWP vs the rest (again).

    Like

  57. DCM

    Do you seriously expect us to believe that Jo Benefield and Jer Hicks don’t know who is in the SWP and who isn’t in Bristol?

    Like

  58. Following Liam’s link to the Socialist Worker site, it’s interesting (if that’s the right word) to find that George Galloway is no longer listed as a speaker at the “World Against War” conference on 1st December. Anyone know what’s going on here? Has GG just been air-brushed out of the publicity, or is there more to it than that?

    Like

  59. In reply to J woolrich, Galloway said at his anti SWP rally that the words SWP would never pass his lips again. Possibly the SWP intend to reciprocate. And the SUN bog is still not working.

    Like

  60. Don’t panic Jay – they also do not mention Lindsay German or Tony Benn. In fact they only mention 7 out of about 25 speakers. No conspiracy to see here, move along.

    http://www.stopwar.org.uk/

    And I’m still not buying that all 35 members were SWP.

    Like

  61. Hi Karen, I can’t get in to it either – but it’s something of a relief tbh…

    Like

  62. Andy asked “Do you seriously expect us to believe that Jo Benefield and Jer Hicks don’t know who is in the SWP and who isn’t in Bristol?”

    Why not? Besdies even if they do have access to the names of all Bristol SWP members (which I doubt) how can we be sure they are not lying May be they are too ashamed of their inability to recruit more than seven people to Galloways cause, and they think they can deflect criticism of their ineptiitude by saying of the others “Well they would vote that way wouldnt they”

    Like

  63. A commented I submitted earlier hasn’t gone up – tried to submit again and it said I was unable to as it’s a duplicate…

    where’s it gone?

    😦

    Like

  64. oh well, here it is again..

    Jay don’t panic – they also do not mention Lindsay German or Tony Benn. In fact they only mention 7 out of about 25 speakers. No conspiracy to see here, move along.

    http://www.stopwar.org.uk/

    And I’m still not buying that all 35 members were SWP – Karen hits the nail on the head as to the reason for pretending they were.

    Like

  65. Sometimes comments with links get caught in the spam filter.

    Like

  66. If anyone can come up with a sensible answer re my question about GG and the conference I’d appreciate it. It was a genuine question. If the SWP CC start to pull the plug on joint work in other campaigns it’ll have major implications for all concerned – though comrades like Karen would no doubt approve.

    Like

  67. Thanks for clearing that point up DCM, I’m relieved to hear it – our posts crossed in cyberspace!

    Like

  68. hi DCM. I take your point. Still given andys insistance that there is nothing wrong with his blog maybe there is a reason why it seems to be swp supporters and only swp supporters who can no longer access his blog. maybe he is tired of having to taek responsiblity for the lies he spreads. maybe andy has found some way of infecting the computers of everyone who criticses galloway or andy himself with malicious software that stops us accessing his malicious blog. i for one would not put this past him. i hope for his sake that he has done no such thing. this would certrainly constitute a criminal offense and i am sure many swp supporters would take out a class action against him. it has been about twelve hours since i have been able to access andys blog. if this problem persists and andy insists it is not his fault then i will have to pay someone to tatke a look at my computer. if it turn out that this problem is caused by a virus deliberately srpead by the owner of the sun blog then i for one will be sending andy newman a bill

    Like

  69. No probs although I would understand why it would be hard for the SW to treat Galloway exactly as they did before, in light of his incredibly vicious and dishonest attacks on them at the RR rally tbh.

    I understand he was upset but some of the stuff was truly unforgiveable.

    Like

  70. Karen, if Andy’s blog is malicious why are you so desperate to access it? Not being able to do so seems to be ruining your day. Odd. But then so is the rest of your post….. “Andy Newman ate my hamster”?

    Like

  71. Hi Karen, at least our blood pressure would return to normal though eh? 😉

    Seriously, I would rather not go on there anymore but I continue to do so out of sheer bad habit. I wish all of us who object to his twisted version of ‘unity’ and the nasty crap he writes would just boycott the damn site once and for all to be honest.

    Like

  72. […] Full report from Liam Mac Uaid of Socialist Unity. […]

    Like

  73. blimey, have i become the devil?

    This is most remarkable from karen: “Still given andys insistance that there is nothing wrong with his blog maybe there is a reason why it seems to be swp supporters and only swp supporters who can no longer access his blog.”

    There have been 4580 hits in the last 12 hours, so I think it is just you.

    And reading through the comments at least half of them have been from SWP supporters.

    Like

  74. And yes Karen

    I sent a magic virus that only affects the computer’s of people who have “Socialist Worker” bookmarked in their favourites.

    I programmed it to infect your computer by using microwaves bouncing off a satelite, so the only defence is to wrap your PC in aluminium cooking foil, if that doesn’t work try putting it in a bucket of water.

    It was Roger Rosewell that suggested the idea to me, and the development was funded by the People’s Republic of North Korea.

    Like

  75. Andy,

    I think Karen has uncovered how deep your evil can go: you have deliberately broken your blog in order to prevent the masses from defending the SWP. You’re basically like a Bond villan. But in Swindon.

    More seriously, how telling is the bizzare idea that the inability of some people (including me) to access you blog is conscious persecution by you of your opponents? It shows that some friends of the SWP have really gone beyond the end of reason.

    Duncan.

    Like

  76. And this is even more unbelievable from karen:

    Andy asked “Do you seriously expect us to believe that Jo Benefield and Jer Hicks don’t know who is in the SWP and who isn’t in Bristol?”

    Why not? Besdies even if they do have access to the names of all Bristol SWP members (which I doubt) how can we be sure they are not lying May be they are too ashamed of their inability to recruit more than seven people to Galloways cause, and they think they can deflect criticism of their ineptiitude by saying of the others “Well they would vote that way wouldnt they”

    Unbelievable.

    How many people do you think are in the SWP in Bristol? And Jo Benefield is a very active member who has been in the party in Bristol since 1972, Jer Hicks has been in the party more than 20 years as well.

    It is not just a question of “having access to all the names”, they have known each other for years.

    So we have DCM and karen despertaley hanging on to the idea that two absolutley key and central members of Bristol SWP don’t know who else is in their organisation.

    BTW, at the most recent Bristol members only aggregate at which Jo benefielf resigned there were 35 people there, so even if she had forgotten the people she has known all her politicall life, she miht have remembered meeting them all two weeks ago.

    But no – in the Through the Looking Glass World of the SWP loyalists, it is more credible that these utterely irreproachable comrades of unquestioned integrity would lie.

    You lot really ought to think about where you are going with this.

    Like

  77. Duncan, actually one of the Pierce Brosnan Bond films did have a scene filmed here in Swindon, using the groundwell Motorola factory.

    My cover is blown.

    Like

  78. Andy, it is both me and Karen who cannot get into your site (as I said tho, I am somewhat relieved).

    Like

  79. Nor can Dunvan, and Ger Francis had a problem earlier.

    BUt as I said, so far today 4540 visitors have got through. It may be a temporary problem with the host server.

    Like

  80. Sorry loooking at the wrond day, 4540 was last Sunday

    5278 so far today

    Like

  81. ‘But no – in the Through the Looking Glass World of the SWP loyalists, it is more credible that these utterely irreproachable comrades of unquestioned integrity would lie.’

    I struggle to see why the likes of Simon A would argue you with…or do I?

    Like

  82. DCM wrote

    “Let’s hope nothing has happened to Socialist Unity or the left will be doomed forever!!!!!!

    Andy where are you – we are having withdrawal symptoms from all that left unity your site inspires in us!!!”

    I suffer from dyslexia. But even I know this is not how you spell ‘shite’.
    by the way the shite is on line again.
    how many people could not gain access.
    and were they all swp supportrs

    Like

  83. andy denies responsiblity for swp supportrs being able to access his sun blog. he says that ger francis could not gain access eithr. so it cant be a conspiracy by andy against the swp. but is that really the case. andy admnits to drawing up lists of the ip addresses of those he does not like. my browser informs me that some sights are nknown to have malicious software. it is tnot difficult tehniclaly to leave cookins on the hard drives of those who visit a site. it should not be to dificult for someone to selectively infect those whose ip addreses belong to those who have left massges that the ownrer of the sitte does not like. when this p[roblem was first drawn to andys notice he did not chack it out. he said that there was no prolbm. this problem persisted for severl more ours. clearly this is a prolem that afected some visorrs to andys site but not others. this cannot be a normal problem with the server. if it was such a problem then andy would be aware of it.. if it turn out thst many swp members who have made crtiial commnets on andys blog were locked out then we should compare notes. we should run anti virus softeware to see if we have been targetted by the sam peace of software. if andy has deliberately infected the computers of swp members then he has committed a criminal offence. the fact that we can now acces the blog would only mean that the malicious software on server is not triggering the virus infecting our harddrive . but it the malicious virus would still remain on our hard drvies until we disinfect them.

    Like

  84. good point Susan.

    I think there is no doubt Andy has been plotting to destroy the SWP all along. There is enough evidence here that he has done something malicious to our computers and I notice that no articles were being posted on his web-site during the times that certain incidents happened in Tower Hamlets.

    He may have been a sleeper in the SWP for years pretending to be a socialist activist, but really just gathering information waiting for this opportunity to come along. I bet he was delighted when George galloway turned on us, despite the fact that without the SWP Galloway would be absolutely nothing. Without John Rees to guide him Galloway will make terrible mistakes.

    And now Andy is publishing a lot of critical ideas on his blog about the SWP. Doesn’t he realise that without a revolutionary party there cannot be a revolution. The stakes are really high here. The SWP is the largest revolutionary organisation in Europe so to criticise us is by definition sectarian. I am worried about the damage Andy is doing.

    I am really releived that Ii haven’t been able to get through to Andy’s site today. I tried every ten minutes, Ii hate myself for doing so, becasue we have been told enough in Party Notes to know there is a terrible witch-hunt. We don’t need any more information than that, so I shouldn’t really be going on there and reading other points of view. It is just like living in Stalin’s Russia now or worse. And that is no surprise I have read Andy saying that we need to reappraise the Popular Front, and he even lets that Stalinist Mark Perryman post on there, and he used to be in the Communist Party! They are really bad and killed Trotsky.

    Call it Socialist Unity!!! What is he doing posting all those articles about trade unions, and repression in Pakistan, and opposing welfare reform. This just shows how devious he is that he tries to make his blog look like an ordinary left activists blog, when he has been plotting all along to stop there being a revolution.

    I am just glad that enough of us SWP members have cottoned now on to what a malicious wrecker Andy is.

    Like

  85. I especially liked this comment:
    “it should not be to dificult for someone to selectively infect those whose ip addreses belong to those who have left massges that the ownrer of the sitte does not like.”

    It’s possible that the typing tells us something about the state of mind of the writer.

    Like

  86. how many people could not gain access.
    and were they all swp supportrs

    Do me a favour, Adam. If the answer to the second question were ‘Yes’ – if Andy’s site had been unavailable to SWP members & supporters, but nobody else – how exactly would that work?

    I know computers are complicated, but they’re not that complicated.

    Like

  87. Phil, I don’t think you understand. Andy’s supporters are all on DSL (Degenerated-workers State Line) while the SWP will all use ADSL (Anti-DSL). You just put a magnet next to the cable: quite simple really.

    Like

  88. Some of the accusations about Andy Newman’s plans for world domination remind me of the time my ex-girlfriend’s mum had a breakdown and became convinced that Sadam Hussein was hiding in her attic. He wasn’t – but she insisted that we checked just to be sure.

    Like

  89. Some of the accusations about Andy Newman’s plans for world domination remind me of the time my ex-girlfriend’s mum had a breakdown and became convinced that Sadam Hussein was hiding in her attic. He wasn’t – but she insisted that we checked just to be sure.

    Like

  90. Sorry, dunno why my message appeared twice…!

    Like

  91. That’s odd, Jay, because Osama bin Laden is in fact hiding in my ex-girlfriend’s bathroom. That, I believe, is why she had to finish with me.

    And I’m the Scatman.

    Like

  92. Jay,

    it’s because that RR PC bias filter hasn’t been checked out yet by Chief O’Brien.

    You see the poor chap can’t keep up with our sectarian demands; he’ll probably down tools.

    Like

  93. It’s getting worse all the time. The posts from the overly passionate SWP loyalists have been turned into bollocks.

    How does ‘he’ do it?

    Like

  94. Lest we forget, a few weeks ago Andy claimed that SUN was getting inundated with spam directly from the SWP national office trying to disrupt the working of the site. I asked him to post or send me some examples so I could do a proper trace to see where they actually originated. He said he’d unfortunately trashed them all, but would let me have any new ones. I guess the spam must have magically stopped or he forgot. Otherwise it’s foil hats all round I think.

    Like

  95. Bah, wearing foil hats is just silly. I’m going to pass a very powerful magnet slowly over my hard drive instead – that should sort out any probs.

    Like

  96. I’d still like an answer to what the Bristol non-SWPers and their allies are intending to do?

    Set up a Bristol RR branch perhaps ?

    Like

  97. M

    That particular batch of spam did in fact stop. It was manually generated, not a spam bot.

    I think perhaps the conversation that we were having alerted whoever was doing it that it was traceable.

    Like

  98. We are waiting for the result of the national challenge as to who owns the name of Respect. As far as we’re concerned we are still part of the Bristol Respect steering group. I thought that Respect Renewal was just the name given to the rally that was organised in order to allow members and supporters of Respect to have a proper discussion about where Respect should go next and what its priorities should be, rather than a ‘debate’ the terms of which (and probably also the contributions) have already been decided by a small group in London and repeated time and again by a large group of ‘delegates’ to themselves. Personally I don’t want to get into a situation where we have a ‘Real Respect’ and a ‘Respect Renewal’, it’s too Monty Python, so I don’t know what I’ll do personally if we don’t win the name. Maybe go back to watching too much telly and spending too much time putting the world to rights down the pub. I can’t speak for the others.

    Like

  99. Andy newman says that people at the SWP national office were alerted by his on line conversation. and that meant they desisted before Andy could conduct his trace. then why did andy tip off these SWP membes at the national office? why not complete trace first. and if he conducted no trace, then why does Andy still hve the gall to alleging it was workers at the SWP national office who were doing this? this is what is known as a smear. put up or shut up andy!

    Like

  100. gadget queen is heding for one big disapointmet. and galloway has wasted his money on his respect renewal website. those who rallied to galloways’ fan club will find that cant use the resepct name in campaign literature and that it cant be used on the ballot paper, or any name that is designed deliberatly to confuse the electorate. you may as wel start to think up something esle was soon as posslbe. what about the galloway-livingston party?

    by the way it says alot about birminghams magificent seven that they are now saying that if the cpitalist courts dont award them the raspect name they will retire to a cosy life wtith their feet up watching the box. what a sad bunch of losers. no wonder they could conbble 85% of the respect branch voted them of the branch leadership

    Like

  101. Gosh Liam, you know your blog is going up in the world when you get one person posting under 3 names.

    Like

  102. I agree with tonyc and I think that people should make more effort to disguise the fact that they’re the same person.

    Like

  103. I agree with both tonyb and tony c. Well said, comrades.

    Like

  104. Can I ask if tonyb and/or tonyc are also members of Gadget Queen’s magnificent seven? And might I enquire as to their attitude towards the future of Respect Renewal in Birmingham? If the courts deprive them of the Respect name, will they also retire to watching the telly, and drowning their sorrows down the pub? I strongly suspect that most of Galloway’s fans will do that.

    Like

  105. I don’t think anyone ought to bet on which way a decision by the capitalist courts will go – Galloway’s grand slam winning streak aside. They may just lock everyone down long enough to fuck up both sides. And if the Monster Raving Loony Party throws its iron in the fire as Respect Regurgitated or Respect Redux or something, the courts might give the name to them, just for a larf.

    Like

  106. Hi Canadien. I am pretty confident that the courts will have no choise but to award the Respect name to the rightful owners. I am not a betting woman; it’s against my religion. However, if I was I would I would stake my entire overdraft on it. Can’t wait to see the look on the faces of Gadget Queen, tonyb, tonyc and the other four members of Birmingham’s Magnificent Seven when the judge delivers the bad news. I doubt very much if they will be th only members of Galloway’s cheer leading squad retiring from politics to spend more time becoming couch potatos, drowning their sorrows, reminiscing about the good old days.

    Like

  107. Well, confidence is a useful quality in politics but, you know what they say, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

    Like

  108. Aye, Canadien. Optimism of the will, pessimism of the intellect. Always a good motto. However, in the extremely unlikely scenario of Galloway winnig, Respect should take it to appeal. While I can just about accept the possibility that they will lose the original decision, I cannot believe they could lose any appeal. Why not?

    Galloway may be able to successfully challenge a few subsidiary rulings of the conference arrangement committee. I can see the judges ruling in his favour vis-a-vis the student representation. However, if the reality of the situation in Tower Hamlets is examined, it is not at all likely that Abjol Miah’s riff raff will be judged to constitute the legitimate delegation. In reality, the report of the second branch meeting reported by Liam will help prove that Abjol Miah’s supporters broke the rules. Additionally, raising this will alert Galloway’s voters to how his number two in Respect paid for the votes of himself and the rest of those who joined up at the last minute in order to rig the Tower Hamlets’ delegation to conference. Galloway would be well advised to cut and run, rather than let these facts come to light in a court of law, where his supporters have to testify under oath.

    But even if Galloway wins on both these counts, he and the rest of his supporters on the national council have conceded many tiimes on the internet that the only reason they attempted to pull the plug on conference was because they knew they would be humiliated at regardless of conference arrangements committee’s rulings on student representation and the Tower Hamlets’ delegation.

    It is entirely insufficient for Galloway to prove that there was some minor problems with decisions of the CAC. It is very common for foreign observers to accept that there were some irregularities in an election, but that they would not have affected the overall result. Galloway and his supporters have left behind ample evidence that they knew they were going to lose all the votes at conference and chose to boycot it for that reason and that reason alone.

    The demonstrable gerrymandering of delegations in Tower Hamlets and Birmingham, the verbal intimidation by George “Fuck off!” Galloway himself, and the physical assaults carried out by some of his more deranged supporters (dismissed by Galloway’s favorite blogger, Andy Newman, and his man on the CAC, Ian Donovan as irrelevant),… Brought together, all this evidence when brought out in an open court will help seal the fate of Galloway’s crew.

    Like

  109. I”ll make this invitation for the third time. I’m still waiting for a taker.

    Here is my offer to anyone who supports the SWP’s line in this discussion. Submit a guest post of up to 8-1000 words explaining how relatively large democratic centralist organisations should operate in broader formations. Not one word will be edited.

    To what extent should they use their organising capacity and enforce their discipline to determine the outcomes of votes on questions of tactics and principle?

    How can they allow the broader formation to develop its own political culture and make it attractive both to experienced militants and people who are new to politics?

    What is the purpose of the Marxist current’s involvement and what is its long term view of the project?

    Like

  110. Socialists taking their disagreements to the bourgeois courts! Nice work for the lawyers I suppose.

    I despair at the whole thing really. The level of childish bickering that passes for political debate is almost beyond belief, although the physical attacks on Oli Rahman are disgusting.

    In the end though compared the issues facing the world in coming years this former lovers’ tiff will seem to be totally pointless and irrelevant. Sad to see Monty Python having been so prescient.

    Like

  111. Regarding attacks on weblogs and their origins, it’s quite possible for dirty tricksters to spoof IP addresses and given the packet-switched nature of the internet, it’s very difficult to conclusively prove the origin of messages.

    So jumping to conclusions is unwise.

    As is using the bourgeois courts to settle disputes within left-wing organisations. It’s a leverage point to create further disruption.

    Like

  112. Of course the best way to avoid the issue ending up in the courts is for the SWP CC to return to negotiations. So I would like to ask its supporters on this forum a simple question – are you in favour of a negotiated settlement or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.

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  113. It would be a quite subtle attack for somone to be spamming my blog (ineffectually as it was caught by the spam filter) while at the same time spoofing the originating IP address as the SWP office.

    But whatever – you either believe me or you don’t.

    Like

  114. Comment from somebody called ‘KrisS’ on SU:

    I think that Respect should carry on being Respect, and you can do what you like – which of course you will anyway (or at least, what your “Key Members” like). Either your “Key members” will do their best to make it harder for Respect to continue its work, or they won’t.

    I don’t know KrisS; he or she may be a covert Renewalist provocateur for all I know. But if [s]he’s representative of SWP leadership opinion, I think the answer to Jay’s question is ‘No’.

    Like

  115. What is there to negotiate? Nick Wrack has been very clear in out lining a stratergy of splitting branches where renewal can and disrupting them where they can’t.

    What do Renewal supporters think of Salma using key NUS livingstonite and Socialist Action member Ruqs Collector to convene a student renewal split. The livingstonites run a student group called the Student Broad Left which is running against several Respect members including notable Student Respect independant Assed Baig. What ever the fall out from respect is it responsible to use key labour party figures to organise respect break away groups as part of labour party factions?

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  116. Cliffite’s comment suggests you’re right Phil, though hopefully other SWP comrades might try to give the tit-for-tat stuff a rest for just five minutes and think about how we can move on.

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  117. I’m with KrisS and Cliffite. There’s bugger all to negotiate. Phil’s friends recognised that they were on a hiding to nothing, and decided to run a way from a fight at a democratically elected conference. Respect Renewal’s supporters claim the conference was invalid on account of Linda Smith not wanting to have to stand for election again. Let them toss their cash down the drain in legal fees. Let them expose their delegation-rigging in a court of law. Should be good for a laugh.

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  118. What on earth is Jay Woolrich on about? Cliffite’s comments disprove Phil’s arguments. SWP comrades know exactly how to move on. Recognise that Galloway’s split is going nowhere. The only thing that united these disparate group was hostility to democratic accountability in general and to the SWP in particular. In the absense of their need to unite against the SWP as an internal focus of opposition, they will start to come apart at the seems. We are already witnessing this. Already they are at sixes and sevens over whether to endorse ubber-scab and a New Labourite apologist for the Metropolitan Police’s shoot-to-kill policy. They are attacking each other on opposing Michael Lavellete’s reelection.

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  119. It’s obviously disingenuous to say that there’s nothing to negotiate about; and it’s pointless to keep recycling the same old accusations and counter-accusations. Surely anyone who’s followed the endless acrimonious arguments around the split in the SSP can see that much at least. If the matter does end up in court both sides will be losers, politically, whoever wins the legal arguments.

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  120. Andy Newman wrote “But whatever – you either believe me or you don’t.”

    I don’t.

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  121. Jay wrote “It’s obviously disingenuous to say that there’s nothing to negotiate about”

    Wrong. What is pointless is to pretend that there is something to negotiate about. Furthermore, it is pointless for those who take such diametrically opposed positions to waste time debating this issue. If you are not happy with your lot, then sue. Throw your money away in legal fees. You sound desperate, Jay. You try to frighten members of Respect into granting you privileges you have not earned. You walked away from Respect rather than subject yourself to the party’s highest authority: it’s annual conference. You realised that you would be crushed on every vote, that you would end up with zero representation on the incoming national council. So you crawled away, tail between your legs. If you did not want a split, then you should not have opted for one. You have made your bed. Now lie in it. You will inevitably pin your colours to the mast of the scab and apologist for police shoot-to-kill, Mayor Livingstone. Time for negotiations have long since passed.

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  122. Ann, do you have any idea just how sectarian you sound? You know nothing about me. And if you think debate is pointless then why are you bothering?

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  123. I think that’s a No to negotiations. On the bright side, it’s a No to negotiations from several people I’ve never heard of, almost all of whom are hiding behind pseudonyms, which makes their opinions rather less than usually interesting.

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  124. “They are attacking each other on opposing Michael Lavellete’s reelection.” Ann

    Eh? What did you mean by this? Micheal Lavalette was reelected in May …

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  125. Ann,

    you sound like ‘Randy’ Newman.

    How does the song go, something like,
    ‘ …. they all hate us anyhow, so why not drop the big one now ?’

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  126. ” You walked away from Respect rather than subject yourself to the party’s highest authority: it’s annual conference. You realised that you would be crushed on every vote, that you would end up with zero representation on the incoming national council.”

    Yeah right. And this is what’s laughably called the ‘Unity Coalition”.

    Surely the “party”‘s ‘highest authority’ is the central committee (sorry Central Committee) to which the SWP membership are accountable.

    These words, and others like them, should be and will be quoted again and again against the SWP leadership every time they attempt to put their toe in the water and engage in a bloc with any forces coming from the Labour Party, the trade unions, the environmental movement, or anywhere else where people may come to desire a bloc with the far left to build something that could be more than the sum of its parts.

    “You will be crushed on every vote, you will end up with zero representation.” That can be the SWP’s new catchphrase, rather like “nice to see you, to see you nice” (or maybe not, come to think of it!). Or how about “I demand that the dogs gone mad be shot – every last one of them!” That’s more like it! (with apologies to Bruce Forsyth and the late Andrei Vyshinsky respectively).

    Believe me, with this attitude, the SWP will be about as welcome in the broad left/labour movement as a turd in a swimming pool. Enjoy this pariah status! Ann deserves it. But many SWP comrades do not deserve it, or her. I’m sure they will at some point fight themselves out of the invidious situation of being imprisoned in a bureaucratic sect with crazed sectarians like Ann.

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  127. I think that a lot of SWP members genuinely can’t see the harm that the caucus system and their brand of “democratic centralism”does in a situation like this.

    On pure tehnical grounds, you can make an argument about a democratic conference.

    But when just about every SWP member will have been instructed how to vote, or will have taken part in a discussion that ended up with some issues being “obvious” (as happened to me plenty of times, where you can’t quite work out the arguments against, and no one is interested in patiently arguing it out with you at a caucus of 100 people, so you just accept the CC’s line), you can’t call it democratic participation in a wider organisation.

    Like, in a local Respect meeting, the SWP can win a vote by the SWP members all voting one way, cos that’s what was decided at the last SWP branch meeting – for example, the Tower Hamlets SWP deciding to support Rania Khan for the Bethnal Green & Bow election; if the SWP make up a majority at the selection meeting (say, cos every member has been phoned multiple times), the vote can be won – technically, it’s democratic, but in reality it’s not, cos there’s not actually been an open debate at which people are free to change their minds.

    The essence of democracy is: Can everyone have a voice, and be part of a debate at which ideas and arguments are freely exchanged and in which people can freely change their opinions and vote however they want?

    Clearly that doesn’t happen if the SWP forms a majority and has decided a position in advance. I’d like to see anyone actually arguing that it’s a democratic way of working in a wider organisation.

    I dropped out of Tower Hamlets Respect after too many times of needless divisions being sown by the SWP leadership and me, as a member, being expected under party discipline to vote for that line. There is no chance of putting an opposing point of view at a Respect meeting; the decision is taken by the party. If you disagree, you leave the party or you stop going to the meetings. How can anyone pretend that this is a democratic way of working?

    Now, I think democratic centralism can be crucial, and at times absolutely essential.

    But I think it is out of place if we’re trying to build an open, outward-looking organisation where everyone feels they have a voice. When people come to a meeting and see that there’s a group of people who will not be open to debate because they already made their decision in advance on pain of expulsion from the party, you can’t call it democracy – and they don’t call it democracy.

    But I accept that people in the SWP don’t even really see the problem. I’ve even heard SWP members complaining that certain groups had met before a meeting to agree a position at the meeting. It’s like a lot of SWP members have a blind-spot about it (actually, I think a key SWP member even said it at a Respect National Council meeting – that some people had clearly agreed a position in advance. No sense of the irony of the point)

    Democratic centralism can be useful, but please don’t pretend that decisions taken by a bloc are automatically democratic, and please don’t pretend that the SWP’s Respect conference had the slightest democratic legitimacy.

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  128. “Democratic centralism can be useful…”

    The question really is: what IS democratic centralism? In my opinion, it is not agreeing the line in advance on every tactical nuance and then presenting that en bloc in public, whether the “democratic centralists” are a majority or not. This is formalist nonsense and completely undialectical.

    I think it is more about the relationship between a revolutionary party and the working class and probably does not have much meaning outside of of situations where the bulk of the working class is mobilised in a pre-revolutionary situation (i.e. when there are such things as revolutionary parties).

    It would be interesting to know where the formalistic definition of DC came from.

    Actually, there is another problem. You don’t need to have pre-caucuses to apply the DC formalism. You just need to have acknowledged leaders and a culture of not questioning “the line”.

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  129. The version of democratic centralism dominant in the SWP – both in terms of daily practice and political culture – is more akin to the bureaucratic centralism which has been heavily criticised by (amongst others) Cliff himself. Whether unwittingly or not, Cliff created an organisation whose version of centralism is based on that of the Bolsheviks following the 1921 conference – when a raft of temporary emergency measures were brought in to cope with the fragmentation of the party following the Civil War. Within the SWP, this kind of ultra-centralist organisation is touted as the norm that Lenin habitually fought for – which is an inaccurate, undialectical and fundamentally dishonest way of approaching the issue. I don’t think that the glove-puppet interventions habitually practised by the SWP rank and file were quite what Lenin had in mind…..

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  130. Tonyc raises some important problems for revolutionaries working in any united front, but normally associated with ones that are just getting off the ground or failing.

    That is united fronts where the revolutionaries are in a majority, when in fact they should be in a small minority in a mass organisation. In the latter case, working as a fraction under democratic centralist discipline has less of an impact. In the former it is just imposing a view, decided in another meeting, which alienates those on which it is imposed.

    There was a discussion of this problem in relation to youth organisations in Permanent Revolution 5, on our website under ‘youth’ which might be useful.

    But Liam what has happened to your blog! I have been away for a few days and its full of nutters tearing each others entrails out. It used to be a site for political respite care after going on the Socialist Unity site – now its Bedlam itself.

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  131. Jay,

    The SWP is more centralised than the Russia CP was and, indeed, the pre-revolutionary Bolsheviks were notably more ‘open’ than the Mensheviks — it was actually the Mensheviks who coined the phrase.

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  132. Stuart, it’s true that the nutter quotient has increased . That’s the price of being more widely read. So long as they abide by the comments policy we’ll have to live with it. On the other hand I’ve got a fair idea of who many of the people who leave comments are and they deserve to be taken fairly seriously. It’s easy enough to distinguish between the two groups.

    George sold me a copy of PR this evening. Thanks for the plug. I’d already started working on something that covers the themes and will post it soon.

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  133. If you become even more widely read you will get deliberate attempts to disrupt the debate.

    A process very well described by someone in an e-mail to me:

    think we are all very familiar with the typical pattern that has emerged in the comments boxes of Socialist Unity (bear with me – this is relevant). If the story is neutral with regard to the Respect dispute, then the boxes gather from 0 to 10 posts. But if the story touches on the dispute, the comments regularly soar over 200, very much fuelled by appalling slurs and accusations levelled by SWP hard-liners, in what Andy has started to call a “strategy of tension”; the rest of the posts are mainly from people on the RR side, frantically trying to refute each slur as it comes in.

    Our opponents rarely accept an answer – they move on to another point without acknowledging that they were wrong, knowing that they can use the same slur again in another thread. On top of that, once they’ve crapped all over Andy’s welcoming deep-pile carpet, they complain about the filfth and stink they’ve created themselves, as if it were the fault of Andy and the RR side.

    This can be very damaging for us, and pushes us into a lose-lose situation; either we don’t argue back, and allow the now very large readership to wonder if the slurs might be true, or we get drawn into interminable circular slanging matches that make us look as if we’re just as sectarian and inward looking as the other side. Even in the latter case, the other side wins, because our hardened opponents (like Brum organiser Pete Jackson) know perfectly well that the SWP leadership has no long-term plans for I-Can’t-Believe-It’s-Not-Respect – it’s a tool they can use in their attempt to make our genuine Respect inviable. They clearly can’t win any significant new allies with a background of splitting or destroying the Socialist Alliance, the SSP and Respect in less than a decade. So in the present phase, the better-informed SWP members aren’t in the least bothered if they look sectarian.

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  134. Andy

    Of course, and this is a completely crazy idea, you could stop posting deliberately provocative attacks on the SWP – like Ger’s slur based upon second-hand accounts and half-truths, that doesn’t even meet the journalistic standards of the gutter press – and then people would have a chance to wind down, assuming you want people to wind down.

    For me, while I think that the split is an utter tragedy and was irresponsible and unnecessary, nonetheless people could still step back and try to make conciliatory moves to limit the damage. (My hope is that the joint work of this weekend’s World Against War event will have helped reduce the temperature a teensy bit) Yet what I mostly see, on your site in particular, is a continuation of attacks, which leads to attacks from the other side, which leads to further responses, etc etc. And there is no shortage of personal insults from the RR people, let’s be honest – Teddy Boy, Ian D. and Ger come to mind.

    But, if you really want your readership and writership to drop and to bring the temperature down it’s pretty simple – don’t write on Respect/RR/the SWP for a month. Otherwise, don’t complain when people challenge your version of events and your side’s political analysis on a public blog. Especially when you say completely unfounded nonsense like “the CC is going to wind up Respect” in the near future.

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  135. Canadien if it were not for the accounts that have appeared here and on the SUN site how many people would have a picture of what is happening? Only one side of this discussion has tried to make it public. We have nothing to hide about what we are doing and why we are doing it.

    Every single account that I have published has been from an accurate, reliable source. In Respect branches which have not yet split SWP members are saying that they are not being told what it is going on.

    It’s better to have a few bad tempered comments than to shut down the discussion. Maybe some of the people who choose to leave pointless abuse as a”comment” will learn to grow out of it.

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  136. Canadien.

    What we actually see, and you are personally one of the worst for this, is raisng the same objections, depite the fact they already have been comprehensivley refuted, so we have to go through the whole cycle again.

    Very good examples are the two instances given by Ger of the SWP seeking to remove Salma as a specker at a trade union event in Birmingham and Galloway being blocked from speaking in Oxford.

    In both cases the main substantive facts have not been disputed by the SWP, instead they have quibbled about a minor detail here or there to create a smokescreen. You keep saying they are untrue, but this is exactly the cylce I describe above.

    Given that you have personally praised the SWP CC for negotiating in bad fauth as a clever tactic to prevent the NC being called, you have little credibility.

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  137. ..and of course the process NEVER happens the other way, for example, it didn’t take repeated posts by me to refute the idea that helen salmon wanted to stand in Kings heath because it was ‘mainly Muslim’ and ‘a safe Respect seat’ at all. Similarly the idea that Martin Lynch in Walsall is some kind of sub-Stasi secret policeman was WELL checked before being posted on the SUN sight – not. (It would have been easy to get his side of the story, but why bother?).

    This is the problem with e-lists. The official SWP line ( and I’ve had an email to this effect) is – ‘this isn’t the real world, don’t get involved.’ Those on the SWP side who do are acting purely free-lance, I assure you.

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  138. “This is the problem with e-lists. The official SWP line ( and I’ve had an email to this effect) is – ‘this isn’t the real world, don’t get involved.’ Those on the SWP side who do are acting purely free-lance, I assure you.”

    Well bugger me, is it 1995 again?

    Will we have expulsions?

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  139. I doubt it.. Just disapproving looks..

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  140. I’ve been asked to post this. the original is lost in cyberspace.

    website: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/index.htm

    Jay Woolrich said: Within the SWP, this kind of ultra-centralist organisation is touted as the norm that Lenin habitually fought for – which is an inaccurate, undialectical and fundamentally dishonest way of approaching the issue. I don’t think that the glove-puppet interventions habitually practised by the SWP rank and file were quite what Lenin had in mind. …

    There is surely no point in saying that this is ‘undialectical’, since dialectics can be, and has been used to justify and rationalise all manner of things, many of which are inconsistent with one another and with Marxism (this is largely because dialectics is a contradictory theory).

    Small wonder then that Dialectical Marxism has been such a long-term failure.

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2009_02.htm

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  141. Re Rob M’s comment about 1995: For anyone who doesn’t already know, in August of that year the SWP CC sent out a circular to party members banning their participation in an online discussion forum. It ended with the following injunction:

    “Accordingly, members of the SWP are instructed not to use the IS-List. […..] Comrades who disagree with this decision are free to argue for its reversal in the pre-conference discussion period that is forthcoming, but they are still bound by our decision. Any failure to observe it will be subject to disciplinary action.”

    Ah, those were the days!

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  142. Andy – I’m afraid your moral outrage is just not convincing. Firstly, people aren’t throwing up smoke screens – any more than people on the RR side (your mantra of “negotiate” whenever you don’t have an answer to a question comes to mind). But generally, those who don’t support RR have fielded outrageous and unjustified claims (such as Muon points to) and tried to pose an alternative perspective from yours. I think you just don’t like being disagreed with and so you inevitably slip into name-calling as a form of argument.

    And as an example of the way you misrepresent what people say, leading to a situation where those you attack feel forced to respond to details, I point to your claim that “Given that you have personally praised the SWP CC for negotiating in bad fauth as a clever tactic to prevent the NC being called, you have little credibility.”

    Firstly, I didn’t say that the SWP CC bargained in bad faith – I have no idea what happened and said so in the comment to which you refer. Secondly, what I said was I think that if the CC maneouvred in such a way as to force your lot to face the membership (you know, maybe to explain how you and some of your friends re-joined Respect specifically to engage in a faction fight that has now split the group) in an open debate by using stalling tactics, well, that is a good thing. You should have to face the membership before you split the group.

    (SENTENCE DELETED – LIAM)

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  143. “Canadien if it were not for the accounts that have appeared here and on the SUN site how many people would have a picture of what is happening? ”

    The trouble is the picture you have painted has often not been all that accurate. It has also served to make the situation worse by winding people up.
    I am open to the idea that Respect should have had a pre-conference discussion bulletin so that both sides could air their differences and have a real debate – but that is not what your blog and SUN are. They are factionally driven by people who weren’t even members of Respect before this fight happened. You had quit and only rejoined to participate in a destructive fight. That compromises you immeasurably. The internet in this instance, has not bright light – only heat.

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  144. Canadien every single account I have published was from someone reliable and most of whom I know personally. No one has identified a single factual error in anything I have carried.

    The old Respect was no longer a place in which a real, clarifying discussion was possible. Everything quickly polarised after GG’s letter and it was clear that the tensions could no longer be contained in the same organisation.

    Is this site partisan? Absolutely! On the other hand I have offered on three occasions in the last couple of days to publish a 1000 word piece from someone willing to write an account from the SWP side.

    It’s no secret that I rejoined Respect shortly after the Galloway letter. It could have opened up a real discussion if it had been handled with any sensitivity.

    A lot of people rejoined the Labour Party when John McDonnell announced his leadership campaign bid. That probably “compromised ” them in the eyes of Brown’s supporters. They wanted to have a fight about the party’s direction. It’s what militants do.

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  145. It is not true, as Moun has pointed out, ‘that helen salmon wanted to stand in Kings heath because it was ‘mainly Muslim’ and ‘a safe Respect seat’. I have made this clear before.

    What Moun omits to mention, however, is that the SWP very much wanted Helen to stand in Springfield ward, which is ‘mainly Muslim’, because it was seen as the ward she had the best chance to get elected from. The only way we could get the SWP to prioritize any serious work in Kings Heath and Hall Green was as part of a ‘deal’ in exchange for Salma supporting Helen’s candidateship for Springfield in 2008.

    Indeed, so desperate were the SWP to get one of their own into a more electable seat, they were prepared to over look all manner of shenanigans if it suited them.

    For example, the candidate who stood in Springfield was not the candidate Salma Yaqoob wanted to stand. We wanted a woman, Salma Iqbal, as the Respect candidate. She had stood the previous year and done very well. We were blackmailed into having to accept an alternative by the threat that if we did not, the eventual Springfield candidate would run as an independent against us instead, which would have been highly damaging. (Strange as it may sound, the individual in question is a good man). The SWP were fully aware of this, but choose to ignore it and embed themselves into the Springfield campaign for the simple reason that they saw it as beneficial to Helen’s future election prospects.

    Now, some of this is just politics, and I can live with it. What I can’t stand is hypocritical cant about the need for more female candidates when the SWP are complicit by their silence in the removal of a proposed female candidate, and point blank refuse to come forward with other female candidates of their own for non-contested wards.

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  146. It is a mystery to me why Canadien intervenes with such ferocity in a debate on the other side of the world, and where he clearly has only a second hand and distorted view of the facts.

    For example, he claims that i argue for negotiations when I don’t have an answer. Actually it has become a tedious treadmill on the SU blog, that SWP supporters keep demanding answers to spurious questions, which have often been answered several times before on other threads.

    In actual fact, we do tend to answer these questions, and never once have I said there needs to be negotiations as a way of avoiding answering a question.

    But there is an incredible doubcle standard at play, that Canadien casigates the RR proponents for not providing full disclosure, even when we try to do so; whicle the SWP side provide no argument at all. And in some cases outrageous distortions – for example when Richard Seymour writing in Monthly Review describes how terrible it was that RR went to BBC newsnight, without mentioning that Oli Rahman and John Rees were on the same programme, and it was the SWP side who agreed first to collaborate with the BBC.

    Canadien claims that I have distorted him by saying that he praised the SWP CC for negotiating in bad faith.

    He then admits that what he actually said was that he didn’t know if the SWP CC did negotiate in bad faith, but if they did then they were right to do so.

    This is hardly a distortion on my part, ,the difference is very slight.

    His actually argument was that stalling to prevent the NC meeting was clever by the SWP.

    Had the NC met then the constitutional irregularities of the 17th NOvember conference could have been resolved. So stopping the NC meeting did exactly the opposite of what Canadien claims it did.

    It is utterly bizarre for him to claim that it was a success of the bad-faith negotiations that we were forced to go to the SWP’s fixed conference, beacsue we errr, didn’t go to it, so where was the success??

    What did happen was that by breaking off negotitions, having got the NC cancelled, and therefore ensuring that the 17th November conference would be an unconstitional farce, the SWP ensured that a split was inevitable, becasue they were tryign to make RR submit to a winner takes all contest at a rigged conference.

    My question to Canadien, is if the SWP were so confident about the “let the members decide” conference, why didn’t they ensure that the conference was transparently fair, with a neutral CAC, and representtative delegations?

    In fact having negotiated in bad faith, blocked the NC from resolving the abuses of the conference arrangements and delegations, and thus ensured the conference was a farce, the national secretary then went to a press conference to announce they had split the oppositioon group on TH council.

    All of this canadien praises from his distant vantage point.

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  147. In fact given that time and time again I get Swoppies on the SU blog complaining that I haven’t answered a question (sometimes becasue I am not at the computer.)

    But I have repeaedly asked for an explanation of why the SWP blocked there being a neutral Conference Arrangemetns Committee, and never once has anyone provided an answer.

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  148. Re Rosa Lichtenstein’s comments on dialectics above:

    A bold Marxist dialectician
    Should show neither shame nor contrition
    When juggling the facts
    On the orders of hacks
    To defend some absurd proposition

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  149. To Ger, first Salma Iqbal was not ‘removed’ she agreed to let the other candidate stand as he was a well respected activist who had contributed to STWC previously, who had a history of labour movement activity and who had helped Respect before it proved itself as an organisation that could win elections. Which is not the case with some of the other people who apperaed on the scene that year.
    Second, this took place before it became clear that there were going to be so many male candidates. If it had happened later then the swp would have argued differently.
    Third, the swp were unwilling to put someone forward for some other very difficult battle, in which a low result would undoubtedly have led to more flak directed at us. Concentrating on trying to get a win in Springfield made more sense.
    And lastly, we were not unwilling to work in Kings Hetah, we stood one of our best known members there the year before. And we make no apologies for wanting to put some of our people forward as candidates in winnable seats. We actually think that our ideas have something to contribute when our members are councillors, as I think Michael lavallette and Ray Holmes are demonstrating.

    By the way its Muon not Moun. A muon is a sub-atomic particle with a large mass, a negative charge and basically unstable ( stop sniggering at the back..).

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  150. A Muon also only has a spin of 1/2 – which seems a little low for the SWP…

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  151. No not really.. reports of our spin are greatly exagerated

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  152. Things are becoming increasingly atomised.

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  153. Well, they did go for the nuclear option…

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  154. “It is utterly bizarre for him to claim that it was a success of the bad-faith negotiations that we were forced to go to the SWP’s fixed conference, beacsue we errr, didn’t go to it, so where was the success??”

    Um, because, Andy, your side weren’t interested in openness and fairness at all – you wanted the SWP out. That’s why it is a string of pearls to compare the NC meeting to the negotiations, as though the negotiations were a substitute for the NC and intended to resolve issues that otherwise would have been resolved at the NC. Your side wanted the SWP and you were creaming your jeans when you thought you’d won that – without the democratic input of the membership. And, of course, you never mention splitting without a democratic vote as a problem, so your “socialist principles” are certainly selective. And that is the reason why it was a success – not a pretty one, not the best one but since your lot wanted to drive the swp either into a dogsbody role – or out into the streets – all along, then you were at least exposed to people who weren’t inclined to take a side as being not interested in the desires of the broader membership.
    As for the “undemocratic selection procedure” saw – we’ve all heard that before and it doesn’t convince anyone. Ian D voted against a mixed slate – that included himself. Birmingham South didn’t send any delegates, even though the slate they elected was mostly non-SWP. Bristol’s mixed slate didn’t bother to show up at the conference. What’s the common denominator? They were RR supporters. Your problem was the democratic character of the process, it was that you might lose. It exposes a double-standard.

    As for your whinge about the fact that I’m not in Britain – well, I noticed you recently had articles on your blog about Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc etc. So, either shut up about the rest of the world and be a true little-Englander or get over it because it amounts to name calling and not a real argument.

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  155. To Moun; Yes, Salma Iqbal withdrew, but only after she, and we, were blackmailed into having to make that decision. You choose to ignore that awkward fact now, just as the SWP said nothing then. Why? Because they saw political advantage to be attained for themselves out of the situation. My point was to contrast SWP silence on this issue with their ‘hypocritical cant about the need for more female candidates’ at the time.

    As for the SWP ‘not unwilling to work in Kings Heath’. The problem was not that the SWP did no work. The problem was that the work they did was hugely ineffective because their members were more comfortable with abstract socialist propaganda, than building effective electoralist organizations. We thought that by having a closer working relationship with their organizer as a candidate, we could change that. That was not to be and it is much more to the SWP’s loss that they never got the chance to watch, and learn, how Salma does her stuff.

    And therein lies the tragedy of their Birmingham Respect experience. The SWP have squandered the best chance in the city in over quarter of a century to situate themselves at the centre of the most significant development in left wing politics. Instead, their leading members show all the hallmarks of people happy to retreat into part of an aging, and shrinking, socialist discussion group, with lots of generals to discuss strategy and no troops to execute it.

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  156. Edward:

    “A bold Marxist dialectician
    Should show neither shame nor contrition
    When juggling the facts
    On the orders of hacks
    To defend some absurd proposition”

    Yes, all you have in defence of dialectical mysticism is some rather poor poetry.

    I can live with that. 🙂

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  157. Have only just discovered your blog and feel I must put some people right about the Bristol meeting as I was there and walked out along with I think were 8/9 in total. Jer Hicks was the most successful Respect candidate in this area and has built a real coalition of supporters from Lockleaze where he stood. These are not the sort of people to harrass others to attend a meeting (as those non – SWP themselves were so crudely harrassed). That’s the style of the SWP and when we realised that the SWP were going to pack the meeting (from their desperate and persistent phone calls to non aligned people) Jer and others decided not to give the meeting and the wrecking resolution any credibility. So other supporters stayed away too. A few of us close friends went along to support the steering group who were shocked at the turn out of 36 SWP members who never attend Respect meetings. We’ve had to argue really strongly over the years to get these people involved!! There can be no rational discussion under these circumstances and as expected within minutes the SWP had proposed to block Jer (the convenor) from speaking by voting (again en bloc) to alter the agenda. So we left much to the dismay of SWP who would have loved to argue and put us right as they always do. This style of organising is so alien to the sort of people you want to attract to Respect that it should have shamed the SWP but no. I cannot understand how both on a political level and personal level they can give Jer anf Jo – fantastic activists -such a kick in the teeth. The dignity was all Jer’s that evening.

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  158. Shawn Whitney is wrong when he says none of the South Birmingham delegates went to the Respect Conference, three did.

    It is clear that the majority of delegates went to the RR Rally, but they did not do so on the basis of any decision of Respect members in South Birmingham, not that I doubt they would have a majority to back their decision, just that they didn’t feel the need to democratically involve members in such a decision.

    As Helen Salmon lives in Springfield, was involved in a local residents group and STW activity, some of us were not that supportive of Salma’s urgings that Helen stand in Kings Heath. As usual with Ger he wants it all ways up, criticisng the SWP propoganda approach to elections and then opposing a SWP member standing were they live and trying to build a network of support.

    Opposing an all male list of candidates is not cant. Given the clear majority influence Salma has, the responsibility its on her to have shown some leadership and achieved the kind of balanced slate that stood in 2006. Sorry you can’t blame the SWP minority for this.

    Finally, as Ger will know, several SWP members were prominent in orgasnising the successful single staus lobby of Birmingham City Council this week (at which Salma spoke very well). Eletcoral politices are not the only game in town.

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  159. ‘Opposing an all male list of candidates is not cant.’ No it is not. Opposing an all male list of candidates while refusing to put forward your own members for non-contested wards, is. To say nothing about looking the other way when your preferred male candidate is involved in blackmail that forces another female candidate to withdraw from standing.

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  160. Why is it that when the SWP convince the majority of a meeting that our position is correct, then our opponents cry foul that everyone MUST be SWP members and we are ‘undemocratically’ packing out a meeting?

    BUT when Galloway announces live on TalkSport that he has decided to satnd in Poplar, without even telling, let alone asking RESPECT whether he can, thats fine and dandy and democracy is not even mentioned?

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  161. Redavenga

    With regard to the Bristol meetings, wher Jer Hicks and JO Benfield say that there were 35 SWP members there, we can trust them because they know who is in the SWP and who isn’t in the city where between them they have put in more than a half century of building the SWP.

    When gallowat announced his intention to stand in Poplar, he stil lhad to go through a democratic selections procedure and election which happen ten days ago.

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  162. And also RedAvenga, we know for a fact which ZSWO memebbrs have been actove in Resoect and when SWP members turn up whopo have never been active in Respect and then vote that is packing a meeting.

    We are not drawing an inference that that is what happened, we know that is actualy what happened because we know the comrades involved personally.

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  163. Rosa, I’m shocked. My little ditty was written to support you. My oh my, if you can’t successfully apply your analytical skills to a simple limerick then what hope is there for your deconstruction of the dialectic?!? I don’t know what they teach people in school these days…..

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  164. After 163 comments I think this thread has now reached the end of its useful life.

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  165. Andy, Galloway announced his decision to stand months ago, I heard it liveon the radio. If Brown hadn’t bottled it, 10 days ago would proabably have been after the election.

    What power does the SWP has over it’s members but the power of persuasion? The members that turned up to the meeting agreed with the positon of the SWP, they didn’t turn up just cos they were told to. If they didnt agree they would have had a much more relaxing evening at home.

    Do you honestly deep down believe that Galloway is more democratic than the SWP?

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  166. Redavenga, regarding the SWP and democracy: I was a member for around ten years and attended a number of annual conferences and party councils as a branch delegate. During that time (mid-80s to mid-90s) I can only recall ONE non-unanimous vote – when a single comrade from my local branch raised her hand against the CC’s recommendation; and she was quickly hounded out of the party. While the SWP has, in theory, a very limited and bureaucratic form of democracy laid out in its constitution, the party’s internal culture and working practices ensure that it remains a dead letter. Mentioning the SWP and democracy in the same sentence is a bit of a joke really, isn’t it?

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  167. Well Jay, all i can say is its a lot more interesting now. The last three internal meetings I’ve been at have all hade lively debate over Respect, after which, in all cases, the majority have been genuinely convinced of what the cc have argued, and there has been a noticeable lack of ‘hounding’. We had John Molyneux standing for the cc 2 years ago, and getting a good 30% of the vote.
    Not much of a joke after all imo

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  168. What power does the SWP has over it’s members but the power of persuasion?

    Democratic centralist discipline?

    (Sorry, was that a trick question?)

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  169. Hi Muon. You’re right, actually John Molyneux standing for the CC was a step forward; but such a tentative one. And the fact that it is still used two years later as “proof” of the SWP’s vibrant internal democracy really speaks volumes. One thing I would take up in a more positive sense though from your posting – if recent events do prompt the SWP rank and file to question the direction the CC is currently taking then that’s all to the good, regardless of whether the criticism is in public or (as it no doubt will be) in private.

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  170. Jay
    My embership 1969 -1977 foreshadowed your experience uncannily.

    The fact is that in the 1970s the IS group was democratic compared to the WRP but claerly that was hardly a benchmark.

    There is something corrosive in the SOLE method of growth based on a lack of a programme and paper sales and individual recruitment. It leads to very pressurised environment of targets – new labour learnt something then from the left – and meeting them. In turn this produces a regime of hyeractivity which is not compatible with a reflective democratic regime.

    Militant are an exception because they worked in a ‘socialist’ environment. But that was a specific point in the history of social democracy in the UK.

    Finally I read in another post that democratic centralism is useful. I think that DC based on an open environment is essential.

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  171. […] are from the dying days of RESPECT – SOCIALIST UNITY RESPECT does not belong to the SWP Bristol SWP coup smashes Respect branch Mac Uaid The wiki page gives a pretty good account of RESPECT Respect ? The Unity Coalition – Wikipedia, […]

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  172. Sorry but I really don’t understand you people. This debate makes you all look seriously infantile. I know a hell of a lot of people who left the Labour Party because they were sick of a party line being shoved down their throat as the party got more and more centralised. These people should have been ripe for the picking in gaining members in RESPECT.

    Instead, all this cretinous bickering because of what? Minor policy details? Or perhaps not even that – minor ideological differences (and they are minor)? This has thrown away your chances at creating a serious force on the left. Many of those former Labour Party members, dissillusioned trade unionists, etc. have thought ‘fuck this’ and these experienced political activists are either sat idle during one of the most important elections in years or they have joined/re-joined Labour in an attempt to stop the Tories. I’m one of the latter and it sadens me that people who in reality are much closer to me ideologically are simply that incapable of keeping their heads screwed on that I had to go back. I’m spending my time campaigning for good lefty councillors like Jenny Smith. If you lot had an ounce of common sense you would do the same.

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