Liam redux

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Wastrels! A night with Respect Renewal

Respect Renewal is going to have to come up with some way to connect with working class people. The omens are not good if my experience tonight is anything to go by. Some of them are going to fritter away Saturday morning petitioning against the closure of five post offices in Tower Hamlets. Another group…

Liam
1–2 minutes

Respect Renewal is going to have to come up with some way to connect with working class people. The omens are not good if my experience tonight is anything to go by.

Some of them are going to fritter away Saturday morning petitioning against the closure of five post offices in Tower Hamlets. Another group says it’s going to organise a youth meeting just before next month’s anti-war demo so that it can bring down a bunch of local young people. There’s another sackload of losers setting up a public meeting on an estate to rile the youngsters against ID cards and new police stop and search powers. Oh yes they also intend to distribute a newspaper in the area that talks about housing, immigration, war, fuel costs and that type of thing.

I should have gone to the “Why you should be a socialist” rally with Lindsey German that was happening ten minutes walk away.

53 responses to “Wastrels! A night with Respect Renewal”

  1. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Yes of course these are exactly the sort of issues socialists should campaign on.

    I don’t see why it’s counterposed to having open revolutionary politics, though?

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  2. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Petty.______ petty.

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  3. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    While I don’t disregard any of the activities outlined in Liam’s comment it must be a bit dispiriting for a socialist to be in a meeting where there is no discussion about how to relate to local workers nor planning how to bring local trade unionists to the anti-war demo.
    It’s an issue of balance and that meeting doesn’t appear to have a balanced approach to building RR among local workers. Perhaps this needs to be raised and hopefully future meetings will address the need to have community and trade union activity equally. It’s still early days for RR so this may develop.

    As a member of Respect I want to tread carefully and not be sectarian because if RR and Respect attract more workers that can only benefit the left in general. I hope future meetings reflect this desire.

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  4. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    You said you don’t want to be sectarian Ray, but you managed a good impression of real ultra-left behaviour there.

    Are young people not “workers”? Are the people campaigning against the closure of post offices not “workers”?

    Or are they only workers if we talk to them through their unions?

    The great thing about Respect has always been its willingness to connect with people on loads of different levels. Respect Renewal *is* (duh) determined to get more involved with local unions.

    Sadly, some approaches that we made have been stymied by the fact that local SWP members tend to hold key positions in local union branches, and have been ignoring our calls and emails.

    But it’s a shame that you’ve so quickly slipped into the ultra-left practice of dismissing the serious content of what someone says so that you can pick at what they didn’t say.

    Last night’s meeting was brilliant, and it’s a real sign of what you can achieve when you free people to express their ideas and opinions without fear of being sneered at by people with “better perspectives”.

    We had a serious discussion about how to work with the local StW group and build for the demo in the light of the fact that the SWP has been trying to push us out.

    The good news from last night’s meeting was that some SWP people in Tower Hamlets are in contact and talking about working with us. All of us were dead pleased about it.

    You said it must be “dispiriting” to have been a socialist in the meeting last night. Well, everyone in that room, which included 5-6 revolutionaries, was really happy and energised by it.

    And if we want to win people to socialist ideas, last night’s meeting was a good way to start.

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  5. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Doug – what you don’t quite get is just how fed up people are with the SWP’s methods. Most of the non SWP readers of this site have sat ignored through meetings with their hand in the air while SWP members in front, behind, on the left and right were called. That’s petty.

    The language consistently used to describe non SWP members. That’s petty.

    Refusing to attend large anti war and climate change meetings because they were organised by RR members. That’s petty.

    Cutting yourself off from 90% of the people you’ve been working with for the last few years in a fairly successful radical project. That requires a special gift.

    One sarcastic remark from me weighs lightly in the balance against all those achievements.

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  6. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    The tone is that of a Labour Party member sneeringly dismissing ‘r-r-r-revolutionaries’. Is that what you were aiming for, Liam?

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  7. Nas Avatar
    Nas

    The tone seems like that of someone who’s making a point against those who accused him and others of abandoning class politics, moving to the right and pandering to communalism.

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  8. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    The tone is that of a Labour Party member sneeringly dismissing ‘r-r-r-revolutionaries’.

    If we were still in 1983 I’d agree with you, but we’re not and I don’t. A Labour Party with genuinely left-wing policies and an active membership is a distant memory; if RR can occupy a fraction of that space it’ll have every right to sneer at rrrrevolutionaries.

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  9. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Oh I get it sarcasm! No wonder you don’t get picked when your hand is raised because no one is sure whether you’re comments are genuine or not Liam.

    tonyc your hysterical attack on me is rather bizzare. I took Liam’s comments to be genuine and was suggesting that workplace organisation may develop as RR develops. How that can be construed as sectarian I’m not sure. On the one hand you claim the SWP is insignificant and then you claim we control all the local union branches. There’s nothing to stop RR doing paper sales outside workplaces or taking their paper into their workplaces is there? It must surely compliment the community activities you have already organised. If this isn’t part of building a left alliance then I believe we are doomed to failure because we can’t rely on community work alone.

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  10. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    “Cutting yourself off from 90% of the people you’ve been working with for the last few years in a fairly successful radical project. That requires a special gift.”

    How is this in anyway accurate and in what way does it foster the possibility of left unity?

    It’s rather grandious to claim that 90% of activists reside in RR and is totally inaccurate. I get the sense that your sarcastic comment is made in a defensive manner. It cries, “Look at us! We haven’t disintegrated.” But underneath there seems to be a doubt about the viability of the RR project.

    As far as I’m concerned if RR grows and attracts workers to left politics even of the reformist kind then that is a blow to the hegemony of New Labour and neo-liberalism. We shall be doing the same in Respect.

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  11. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    “tonyc your hysterical attack on me is rather bizzare”

    Are you really, seriously, accusing me of a “hysterical attack” in my comments?

    Seriously? Does “you managed a good impression of real ultra-left behaviour there” and “But it’s a shame that you’ve so quickly slipped into the ultra-left practice of dismissing the serious content of what someone says so that you can pick at what they didn’t say” really constitute a “hysterical attack” in your view?

    Wow. You’re not even serious, are you? I’ve been thinking for a while that you’re a wind-up merchant in the SWP. Now I’m pretty much convinced of it.

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  12. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    tonyc to misconstrue my remarks as ultra-left and to rail at me is hysterical behaviour. Using language like, “you’re a wind up merchant in the SWP”, after I had clarified my intentions is hardly contributing to a debate and just reinforces my point. Why don’t you calm down and relate to me in a fraternal manner instead of launching an attack? It has been known for socialists with different politics to be able to have a debate in a fraternal way.

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  13. jj Avatar
    jj

    Its now come to this. SWP attacked for holding a meeting about socialism!!! Liam- isn’t it time your red baiting ended u sound petty and sectarian. Even RR supporters must have noed the slight contradicition of the SWP does nothing charge and means nothing followed by the SWP hold the leading union postions in the area. Isn’t time to stop your pathetic attacks… oh by the way when is that members meeting to openly and honestly discuss the KL issue!!!!

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  14. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    jj – isn’t it clear from a reading of the piece that I was sticking the boot into RR and expressing remorse for my recent sharp move to the right!!!!! I called them “wasters”, “losers” etc. Could I have made it any plainer!!!????????????

    Living in a state of semi permanent indignation is a sure way to knock ten years off your life expectancy!!!!!!!

    Do try and gain a sense of perspective.!!!!! One cheap jibe!!!!!!!!!! which amused me when I wrote it !!!!!!!!!!!!!! is not the same as an “attack”!!!!! As for “red baiting” you are talking out your ar….!!!!!

    Most grammar books suggest that a single exclamation mark is enough to express emphasis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  15. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    The scary thing is, people like “jj” may actually believe the things they’re saying.

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  16. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Newish posters seen today, Manchester University:

    World Against War
    STWC
    Marxism 2008
    SWP: “Why you should be a socialist”

    Not seen (for some time):
    anything with the word ‘RESPECT’ on it

    I gather Student RESPECT have got candidates in the forthcoming UMSU elections, but they’ve been very, very quiet lately.

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  17. jj Avatar
    jj

    Ah I see a friendly jibe against the SWP.. apologies Liam.. your sense of humour obviously knows no bounds….I just took u at your word in your article.. Perhaps Liam since u have the time an article on why 1st vote should not be for KL for your paper.. I am sure no one will forget to write it this time lol By the way when is that Members meeting to decide policy in relation to KL being held… I mean GG and Salma are waiting for their instructions… not

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  18. jj Avatar
    jj

    By the way Phil…Am delighted to hear posters up… a bit of party building is just what we need…

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  19. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    jj – I had been hoping to post a report of the last interim national council by now. Maybe soon.

    It turns out the Livingstone business is a non issue. The NC decided not to take a position on it which means that some of us will be voting for KL, some for LG and other for whomever takes their fancy.

    We will have a piece on the subject in next month’s new, all colour SR magazine.

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  20. Kevin Ovenden Avatar
    Kevin Ovenden

    jj

    A turn to party building would make perfect sense for the party, as currently led. Just don’t pretend this is about building a broad left formation. It’s a purely instrumental and self serving response to a political crisis which is largely of the CC’s making.

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  21. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Just don’t pretend this is about building a broad left formation.

    At Manchester – which did have a thriving Student RESPECT branch, a year or so ago – the word on the walls is that building a broad left formation is the last thing on the SWP’s mind. I haven’t even seen posters for any of the individual RESPECT candidates in the Easter NUS elections. (NOLS, Broad Left, Lib Dem, Green and independent, yes; RESPECT, no.)

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  22. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Respect stood two candidates in recent local elections. The SWP have been involved in campaigning for them and for the forthcoming London elections where Lindsy German (an SWP member) is nominated as Respects candidate for mayor. How Kevin and Phil can claim that the SWP aren’t commited to continuing the Respect project I can’t imagine. This is inspite of a split in the alliance and a continuing sectarian attitude towards the SWP. It’s very sad to see such baseless accusations about the SWP from those claiming to want to build a broad left alliance.

    However I can envisage a time when a line may be draw in the sand by both sides over whether it is the right time to try to build a left alliance. If the split in the left is insurmountable and both RR and Respect are too small to recruit members at this moment in time then it would be foolish to thrash away at it. Unless we can overcome this split and find a way to work together then a left alliance has less chance of becoming a pole of attraction for workers.

    Respect meetings seems to be attracting members and despite the split both organisations seem to be developing. I hope this opportunity to build a left alliance isn’t squandered by all the squabbling.

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  23. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    One point that may clarify the lack of posters or student Respect candidates, is that there has been an issue over whether either organisation can use the name, “Respect”, on promotional literature or when standing candidates. RR went to the EC and challenged Respect over using the name.
    During the recent by elections Respect used the name on campaigning literature but the candidates stood as independents. Has this ever been resolved and if not it may explain the lack of Student Respect candidates with independents taking their place.

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  24. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    No – I know the names of the actual Student RESPECT candidates, and I’m counting posters without party affiliations (most of the candidates don’t bother to mention them, in fact).

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  25. steph Avatar
    steph

    Ray: ‘There has been an issue over whether either organisation can use the name, “Respect”, on promotional literature or when standing candidates. RR went to the EC and challenged Respect over using the name.’

    This is incorrect Ray – it was Elaine Graham-Leigh of the SWP who wrote to the EC to try and get Linda Smith removed as nominating officer for Respect, but the move failed, as RR had been arguing it would. Therefore the issue *is* resolved – RR can use the name Respect but the SWP can’t, unless the nominating officer agrees.

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  26. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    “Unity is strength”/”Ray”: Steph is absolutely right. The EC ruling originated in the letter from Elane G-L to them, followed by a letter from Linda.

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  27. johnnyrook Avatar
    johnnyrook

    “Them swp bastards aren’t putting Respect posters up in Manchester” how dreadful!!

    “Them SWP bastards do their own meetings”, how horrifying!!

    “Them SWP bastards sell their own paper”, oh shame on them.

    Perish the thought of trying to work with them, dear me, you know they actually try to recruit to their own organisation, oh no, that’s dreadful, how could they, build the party they are members of, tsk tsk tsk. And you know they actually do more than anyone else to build Respect or Stop the war, oh good gracious me, that’s awful.

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  28. Jim Page Avatar
    Jim Page

    While people debate as to the rightful owner of Respect ,back in the real world, Socialists have just over a month to get their nomination papers in for the Elections.

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/resources/election_timetable.aspx

    I do not care what the Socialists are called, as long as they are on the Ballot paper. If as a result of these manouverings, there are no left candidates to vote for on Mayday, I can see
    a significant number of Socialist voters abstaining on May 1st- leading to alow turnout and the BNP sneaking in.

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  29. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    steph, RR can’t use the name either because Linda Smith is not the nominating officer of Respect any longer. I note that RR has not called itself Respect so really it’s strategy is to stop Respect using the name. A pretty pointless manouver.

    It’s worth noting that if I had posted comments like Kevin and Phil have posted about RR it would rightly be considered sectarian muck raking. At the end of the day this kind of behaviour will backfire because eventually no one will trust those who engage in innuendo and smear tactics.

    Jim, Lindsey German will be standing and there will be left candidates in the elections. As you state the split is history and we need to crack on with trying to draw workers to the left. The internicine squabbles are not helping things and there is a danger as you state that the BNP will take advantage of these squabbles. A call for a vote for New Labour/Livingstone as first candidate if socialists are standing will be disasterous for the left and play right into the hands of the BNP.

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  30. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Ray – like on so much else you are simply wrong.

    It’s time you retired from the job of ‘telling it as it is’ cos you seem to know nothing about electoral law, about the respect constitution or indeed about the disasterous policies your faction is persuing.

    Linda Smith remains the nominating officer for respect – until she agrees to relinquish her position or a court removes her she can nominate whom she wishes. Guess who that will be in City and east London?

    Get used to it. Don’t lie about it. You fool no one except perhaps yourself.

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  31. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    TLC your interpretation does not explain how Respect nominated candidates in Leyton and Preston without Linda’s approaval.

    It’s no use letting sour grapes cloud your judgement in these matters and get in the way of building a left alliance. The split is over. Now move on.

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  32. Kevin Ovenden Avatar
    Kevin Ovenden

    Ray (aka Unity is Strength)

    Perhaps you’d like to explain what the nominating procedure was in Preston? Would you also care to tell us who was invited to select the candidate in Waltham Forest?

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  33. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    And you know they actually do more than anyone else to build Respect or Stop the war, oh good gracious me, that’s awful.

    They’re not doing a lot to build RESPECT at the moment. That was rather the point.

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  34. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    TLC your interpretation does not explain how Respect nominated candidates in Leyton and Preston without Linda’s approaval.

    That’s because they didn’t – in both cases the candidate stood as an independent.

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  35. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    And please – show me anywhere I’ve written anything equating to “them SWP bastards…”. Show me anywhere I’ve posted “innuendo and smear”. Or shut up.

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  36. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    No you shut up! (lol!)

    If we’re going to descend into insults like this then there is no point having a discussion is there Phil? You claimed that the SWP isn’t supporting Respect so please provide evidence otherwise stop using innuendo and smear to assert otherwise.
    We used Respect on our literature and campaigned as Respect in Leyton and Preston so why didn’t Linda stop that? The fact that you seem to think it’s ok to try to prevent a legitimate organisation from using its own name is very counter productive for the left.

    Kevin (aka reformisms apologist – responding to childish name calling) care to explain what Preston has got to do with you? If you like, you could explain how RR’s leadership were elected without a conference or allowing the members to vote and you could explain RR’s nominating proceedure. Do the unelected leadership decide who’s a candidate? Now that has got something to do with you.

    We can spar like this forever it goes nowhere and degenerates into childish name calling. It’s the kind of macho grandstanding that I’d hoped died out in the 80’s. What a shame the left has degenerated into this.

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  37. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    If the tone in this conversation does not improve immediately I’ll delete any further comments. And stop the swearing.

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  38. johnnyrook Avatar
    johnnyrook

    I don’t think Phil gets irony.

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  39. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    If we’re going to descend into insults like this then there is no point having a discussion is there Phil?

    I haven’t insulted anyone.

    You claimed that the SWP isn’t supporting Respect so please provide evidence otherwise stop using innuendo and smear to assert otherwise.

    All I’ve done is provide evidence. An unscientific survey of the state of the walls at Manchester University certainly doesn’t prove that the SWP isn’t supporting RESPECT, but I didn’t claim that it does. It’s just some data.

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  40. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    “We can spar like this forever it goes nowhere and degenerates into childish name calling. It’s the kind of macho grandstanding that I’d hoped died out in the 80’s. What a shame the left has degenerated into this.”

    Utter hypocrisy. Ray, under the name “Unity is strength”, you have posted lie upon lie and smear upon smear. Your posts have been vicious and nasty. When your lies were proved, you said you would not apologise as I was a “sectarian”.

    I think, given your record of disgraceful behaviour on Socialist Unity, you a) bring your reputation with you and therefore can expect people to be uninterested in engaging in fraternal conversation with you and b) can be expected to be laughed at when you lament the state of debate.

    Apologies to Liam for continuing to lower the tone, but in blogland, the key thing is being able to have a certain amount of trust in what people say, even if you disagree.

    You did your level best to poison every debate you were involved with (out of respect to Liam’s blog, I won’t link to all the examples – but anyone who checks Socialist Unity and looks through the dozens of posts full of lies and smears by “Unity is strength” can see what I mean) and you have no right to wish that things were better: You are one of the reasons that debates are this bad.

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  41. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    And “Unity is strength”/”Ray”, just to back up what was said above, you really do need to stop pretending you know stuff.

    Both the candidates that you claim stood as Respect stood as independents, as others have said.

    Is it worth you questioning how come you are under the impression that they stood as Respect? Is it worth asking if you’ve maybe been lied to?

    I’m sure you can prove this yourself – if not, please do let me know and I’ll show you the Waltham Forest and Preston council sites, where you can get independent confirmation that once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    There was nothing anyone could do to stop your side passing yourselves off as “Respect” in leaflets – again, I’m sure you’re just pretending to be really stupid and to not know the difference between election literature and a ballot paper.

    Short of expensive legal action, your side can get away with calling yourselves what you like in leaflets, and can convince some people in small electoral areas.

    Try doing it to 7 million voters and you’ll soon embarrass yourselves.

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  42. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Tony – I’d really prefer if the exchange about who said what under a different alias were conducted elsewhere. Ray has been consistent in using that identity here and introducing words like “hypocrisy” and “lie” generates more heat than light.

    The later in the evening people post the more bad tempered their comments become and I don’t fancy moderating a slanging match.

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  43. Kevin Ovenden Avatar
    Kevin Ovenden

    Ray (aka Unity is Strength)

    “We used Respect on our literature…”

    That sentence says so much, when you think about it.

    Let’s widen the frame of reference for a moment. What’s the thinking in the SWP about standing a candidate in Preston in May, or Rusholme, or Cambridge, or Bolsover (is another seat up in Ray Holmes’s ward)?

    I would have thought that comrads outside of London in these places might have wanted some answers by now.

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  44. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Good question Kevin

    From a today’s email of Rees-pect in Manchester

    “RESPECT FOR MANCHESTER

    Selection of Candidates

    At the members meeting last week the following decisions were taken:

    Nahella Ashraf was selected to stand for Rusholme Ward.
    Sue McPherson was selected to stand for Gorton South Ward.

    Ongoing discussions were agreed to consider candidates in the North or the possibility of a health worker involved in campiagning (sic) to defend the NHS standing.”

    Now I suppose they may have had a discussion about what to do when they can’t use the name on the ballot paper (perhaps the old hoot of Respect leaflets for the independent candidate) but no mention in the email. I’m sure they have a great Plan B.

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  45. Kevin Ovenden Avatar
    Kevin Ovenden

    Thanks, TLC.

    The response to George Galloway’s walkabout in Rusholme was fantastic. I would hope that comrades in the SWP in south Manchester felt some responsibility to ensure that that sentiment was organised into a left of Labour force. The response, of course, was to George. The SWP won’t be able to gather that support under false pretences.

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  46. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Respect and the SWP have nothing to answer to those outside their organisations regarding internal decisions.

    I suggest those members of RR who spend so much time speculating about other organisations concentrate on getting their own house in order.

    Gloating over creating difficulties for Respect (or RR) will only contribute to the failure of a left alliance in this country. For socialists that’s not something to crow about.

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  47. Kevin Ovenden Avatar
    Kevin Ovenden

    Ray

    No one in Respect has created difficulties for the SWP imitation. Rees promoted the defector Ahmed Hussain (whose behaviour splashes over to others on the left). The difficulties are all your own.

    If I were you, I’d start by addressing them rather than pretending others are responsible.

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  48. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Kevin, thankfully you’re not me and I shall take your ‘advice’ in the spirit that it’s given. If you can’t make your peace with what’s happened and move on then resentment will continue to cloud your judgement.

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  49. Chris Brooks Avatar
    Chris Brooks

    Ray, I think it’s worth reflecting on a comment like “Respect and the SWP have nothing to answer to those outside their organisations regarding internal decisions.” Political parties that want to represent the working class vanguard have to maintain an ongoing discussion with the world around them. In this regard, the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks were able to maintain a very open discussion, despite illegality.

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  50. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    I was referring to criticism made by those hostile to Respect and the SWP. Just as I would discount hostile attacks by the Labour right towards the left in the Labour party I have no time for this behaviour from activists outside of Respect and the SWP.

    If there is to be an open debate then it does need to be held in a fraternal manner with the best interests of these organisations as the heart of the discussion. This is patently not the agenda of those attacking Respect and the SWP. Respect and the SWP are accountable to their members and not activists outside these organisations that are hostile to them who have no intention of having a balanced debate.

    The Bolsheviks were not accountable to the Mensheviks. The idea that the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks sat around a table chatting away amicably is a fiction. They were in political conflict because they had completely different approaches to achieving socialism. The Bolsheviks wasted no time in seizing power when the time was right and the Menshviks were extremely hostile to the revolution as they supported the Provisional government. After the Revolution the Mensheviks split and some of them supported the White Army. I won’t go into the relationship between the Bolsheviks and the Left SR’s! This demonstrates how politics in Russia at the turn of the century was hardly an Oxbridge debating society.

    There has been plenty of dicussion in both Respect and the SWP that has involved the membership. I have yet to see the membership involved in the decision making process in RR so that’s why I suggested they take their own advice before pontificating about organisations they no longer have any involvement with.

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  51. jj Avatar
    jj

    so the discussion on KL for RR took no position!!! ha ha this is just pathetic. It will be the pro new labour KL position which will win in RR as its being carried by GG etc.
    Come on this is a complete cop out- Andy tells us is the most important question on the left and RR says….um,um better not take a position because there will be a debate about it. Perhaps thats the way for the future on Abortion, trade union work etc Liam this says it all your organisation is willing to ditch key questions to keep GG sweet. Oh well good luck.

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  52. jj Avatar
    jj

    Personal abuse deleted – LIAM

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  53. jj Avatar
    jj

    I think not!!

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