Class

Respect Renewal has done remarkably well in the four months since the split and its founding conference in November. True it does not yet have a national spread, but it has made some remarkable advances just the same. It has stabilised itself in its most important base in East London – which was wracked by the actions of the SWP in the course of the split. And a far better relationship has been built with its councillors than was the case under the SWP Respect. They are now getting a much better profile.

It has produced three editions of a monthly 24 page paper which has been well received and which has now been redesigned with new comrades involved, as well as an impressive free supplement for the recent anti-war demonstration. A series of highly successful meetings have been held in London, Birmingham and Manchester. And Respect Renewal is now gearing up for the May elections – the GLA where it will stand both on the list and in the City and East constituency, and in local council elections in Birmingham, Greater Manchester and Bradford. There is now the basis for an effective and successful election campaign.

Respect Renewal’s leadership bodies have also developed well. Its National Council has been well attended and has had refreshingly open and genuinely democratic debates. This is very important.  As Salma Yaqoob recently wrote “Our culture should be one in which disagreement is not seen as disloyalty and where inclusivity is not confined to those who sympathise completely with your own views”. Many of the organisations across Europe which have emerged to the left of social democracy have adopted this approach.

Respect Renewal has certainly established itself as the most important initiative towards a broad pluralist party of the left in England. This progress is important, since in the four years that Respect (Mark 1 and Mark 2) has existed, the need for a broad pluralist left alternative has become ever more urgent, the space to the left of Labour has widened, and the crisis of working class representation has become even more acute.

Emerging debates

 
A number of debates have emerged in the course of building Respect Renewal however, animated partly by articles in Red Pepper, about agencies for social change and about socialist strategy. They are also reflected in a number of contributions on the Respect Renewal website and are linked to a more practical debate about party building and media strategy.

One thing made very clear at the founding conference last November was that Respect Renewal does not define itself as “the” left alternative to Labour. Given the dispersal of the left in a wide range of organisations, campaigns, tendencies and movements – including the tens of thousands of people whose heart is on the left but who are not “in” something other than perhaps their union or local campaigns. Respect Renewal has to be the catalyst for an attempt to develop a wider framework for united left action on both the electoral and campaigning fronts.

This is crucial to its future development. It implies a high priority in developing better relations with, for example, the RMT leadership or the Morning Star, and why it was important to campaign for a broader left slate for the GLA elections.

The best conditions for Respect Renewal to act as a broader catalyst, however, is to build itself successfully, organise branches, undertake campaigning activities, get itself rooted in communities, in the trade unions, and in local and national campaigns. Without this everything else is difficult if not academic.

In order to build Respect Renewal we need a number of tools.  These include some rather basic things like participation in demonstrations, organising rallies and public meetings and having a newspaper. Not because these should be fetishised and not because they are the be-all and end-all of politics, but because they are important in carrying our message beyond our ranks.

Surprisingly some of these basic forms of organisation have been contentious. It has been argued for example that going on the anti-war demonstrations has been a waste of time, that they marched through empty streets. But these demonstrations were a huge success – as was the whole anti-war movement which was built around them, and they had a real impact on the government and on the political situation.  Blair in the end was damaged beyond repair.

The real audience of these demonstrations was the millions who either saw them on television and in the newspapers or became aware that they had taken place by one means or another. And in the campaigns to build those demonstrations thousands of people, in communities and the labour movement, in peace campaigns or just motivated as individuals, came to meetings to hear the anti-war message. Hundreds of thousands were moved to march themselves, and for many of them it was the first time they took any political action.

zito-i-apergiaIt was also argued that we had to break from “traditional forms of the organisation.”  Not that anyone is against new ideas, of course, or against new ways of organising or getting our word out. We should grasp new ways of organising with both hands. But that is a very different thing from decrying existing forms of organisation simply because they have been around for a long time. In any case these calls for new forms of organisation have not been accompanied by much in terms of practical proposal as to what they should be.

There is no dispute about the significance and increased use of the Internet of course. That is not the issue. Respect Renewal needs the best possible regularly updated and interactive website. It should use Facebook, YouTube and so on. We need a multimedia approach. But it would be a mistake to think that everyone spends a large amount of time on-line or that there is not an important role for printed media.

There has, however, been some dispute about Respect Renewal having a newspaper – despite its success. This has taken the form of a debate around whether it should be a multi-page paper with a full range of politics or a much more limited give-away broad sheet on immediate campaigning.  In reality, however, much more a debate about what kind of organisation Respect Renewal should be than a discussion different choices of press.

In fact broadsheets and newspapers are both perfectly valid means of getting ideas across, they just perform different functions to that end. On a demonstration it might well be better to have a free broadsheet whilst for building branches and developing the organisation you need a more substantial and rounded paper. The broadsheet can reach out to attract new people and the paper can engage them politically and bring them towards the organisation.

What kind of party do we need?

The key debate is what kind of organisation Respect Renewal should be.  If the task is to build a party with a national spread and profile which recruits into its ranks, builds branches, and provides the framework for the political development of its members, then a paper with a full range of politics is pretty important. If on the other hand the task is to relate to a specific electorate in a key area for Respect Renewal in preparation for the next election then broadsheets and leaflets might be more useful. In fact, however, both types of publication are equally important a
nd should not be counterposed in any way.

There is general agreement that the electoral field is extremely important and should not be surrendered to our opponents. It is a crucial way of making a connection to those who have been deserted by new Labour and those in the unions and in oppressed communities who are looking for a way forward. The importance of having an MP and our group of councillors is obvious. Respect Renewal should have the objective of coming out of the next general election with two MPs – which would be a qualitative development.

But equally, to reduce Respect Renewal to an electoral organisation, or even an organisation principally concerned with the electoral field, would be a big mistake. Our objective must be to build an organisation which on the one hand fights elections but on the other responds to the direct needs of the working class and the oppressed – an organisation which takes the trade unions seriously, which is in the heart of the anti-war movement, which is in the campaigns defending civil rights, opposing discrimination, defending the environment, migrants and asylum seekers, the NHS and the public sector. Our parliamentary and local government representation needs to be integrated into this perspective.

For that we need a political party which builds itself into a national organisation and prepares itself politically on all these fronts. In the old Respect this question took the form of a debate around a party or loose coalition. In other words does the space to the left of Labour need to be filled by a temporary organisation, as implied by a coalition, or by an ongoing class struggle political party based on a comprehensive political programme and organising structure? A party which generates its own internal political life and collective experience as a means of development. It has been argued that the only programme you need to build a party to the left of Labour today is anti-war, anti-racism, and anti-privatisation! This is reminiscent of discussions during the formation of Respect when John Rees argued that what we needed was a peace and justice party. This is turn might have reflected a tradition in the SWP of aversion to programme ­ “one strike is worth a hundred programmes” was at one time the mantra. Or was it 1,000 programmes? I can’t remember.

But you can’t build a party which presents itself as a political alternative at governmental level, on minimalist policies. It would have no credibility at all. Why would anyone vote for it? Lib Dems are in favour of peace and justice and many of them would have no problem with anti-racism, anti-war and anti-neoliberalism either. And what would be the point of it? There is no point in building an alternative which is not an alternative.

Such a stance would be to the right of the Greens, who have a comprehensive programme stretching from the re-nationalisation of the railways to the defence of civil and human rights and opposition to discrimination, as well as being strong on the environment. They are the most left-wing green party in Europe, and there is a very good reason why. It is because the only space they can occupy is to the left of Labour. For Respect Renewal to place itself to the right of them and not much to the left of the Liberal Democrats would be a big mistake.

Nor should the assumption be made that working class communities are only able to cope with a limited political agenda. As with other sections of society some will go for headlines and first impressions and others will want a lot more.

Pessimistic perspective

Some of the comments around programmatic profile seem to have been linked to a deeply pessimistic view of the current political situation. It has been argued that the anti-war movement had been defeated and that the whole of society is moving to the right.

This is wrong. The whole of society is not moving to the right. This view is over-negative on the unions and leaves out the anti-war movement, the environmental radicalisations and the global justice movement completely. The implication was that we should drop all this left-wing stuff, get real, and follow society to the right in order to keep in touch with it.

The overwhelming view projected from the conference last November that Respect Renewal has to reach out to the rest on the left, in particular the left in the unions and the Morning Star has also been contentious. It has been argued that such a left does not exist, hardly exists, or is so weak that there is not much point in relating to it.

This is a misunderstanding of the situation of the left and of its relationship to the trade unions. The fact is that if a group of trade union leaders made a call for a new party the response would be massive. Or if Bob Crow was prepared to back Respect Renewal and the RMT was prepared to affiliate to it, this would be a big step forward for the left in building a political alternative. It would also be a big step forward for the unions, since it is very difficult to regenerate the unions without a political dimension. That is why the Labour Party was formed in the first place.

Then there is the view that community work should be Respect Renewal’s overwhelming priority. And indeed it is extremely important, not least because Respect Renewal has some breakthrough bases in inner city communities in East London and Birmingham which at the present time are key to its development. But it would be wrong to counterpose these areas of work when they are in fact complementary and interlocking areas of activity.

Community struggles include the fight against racism and Islamophobia, the struggle for decent, affordable and environmentally friendly housing, for municipal and healthcare provision for the elderly, for education, for the rights of the specially oppressed and ethnic minorities, for the rights and provision for the unemployed. There is a huge list – and they play themselves out as debates and struggles in communities and localities – even though the political issues involved are in the end national ones. These are all issues which should be taken into the trade unions.

Community activists are often active members of their unions and there are many instances where trade union and community struggles naturally merge and overlap. A classic case is the dozens of local campaigns against hospital closures and health cutbacks where the unity and interaction of organised workers and community campaigners is spontaneous. Such interaction only makes the struggle stronger.

Agencies for change

The issue at stake here is not whether community-based struggles and politics are important but whether such struggles have now replaced the organised working class as an agency for progressive social change. Community action, of course, is as much a part of the struggle of the working class as workplace action. And many of the big struggles of the future will be around environmental issues. But that is a different matter from the implication that the organised workers movement no longer has a key role to play as an agency for social change even if this is alongside other forms of organisation and action.

Internationally, the industrial working class has never been bigger, though much of it has moved East and South, to China, India, South East Asia and other “third world” or “newly industrialising” countries. As Paul Mason argues in his book Live Working or Die Fighting, it may be the actions of the millions of newly proletarianised workers in China and India who determine the outcome of the international struggle against capitalism over the next 30 years.

In no other country of Western Europe have the unions suffered the kind of defeats they suffered in Britain in the 1980s. In most Western European countries the unions remain a force to be reckoned with. In France they have rebuffed the right-wing offensive of Nicholas Sarkozy and are ready for the next ro
und of struggle.

Trade union struggles in Britain, of course, remain at a low and level and on the defensive. The defeats inflicted on the trade unions the 1980s have not been reversed and their subjection to a neo-liberalist work regime in both the public and private sector is very dangerous. And it is hardly challenged, certainly at a national level. In part of course this is because all three major political parties are part of the neo-liberal consensus. But the issue here is not whether trade union struggle is at a low ebb now but can it re-emerge.

To this question we have to say yes ­ though it is not just one more heave, as the SWP imply. Class divisions have widened. And despite the current constraints hundreds of thousands of people are part of daily struggles in the workplace over their work conditions especially, over cutbacks and redundancies, and over pay and hours. Much of this is “invisible”, precisely because it goes on at a local level, does not often lead to national strikes, and is not reported in the national media.

The precondition for these actions is the existence, albeit often hobbled by hostile laws and right-wing leaderships, of the trade unions. And there are thousands of dedicated union activists, at a local, regional and sometimes national level, fighting against belligerent managements and in the face of the weary scepticism and resignation of many of their members.

And we face a sharpening of the political situation. Many observers argue that the economic crisis currently unfolding will be the worst since 1945. Whether this is true or not Gordon Brown has no option within the framework of pro-capitalist politics but to impose what are effectively wage cuts on millions of public sector workers and to cut back public spending. Tens of thousands of public sector workers already face the axe and the threat that their jobs will be deleted or replaced by agency workers. In the next period trade union struggle is going to become more important and not less. It would be very difficult to defend the historic acquisitions of the working class or the aim of progressive social transformation without a re-growth of the unions and of working class militancy.

This will be very difficult of it is confined to a purely trade union or syndicalist level ­ since freeing the unions from current shackles is as much a political as a trade union task. The crisis of political representation places a constraint on the development of the fight-back which itself needs to have a political dimension. One of the difficulties of overcoming the defeats of the 1980s is the historical weakness of the British working class ­ strong on organisation weak on politics. Something which began to be challenged in the 1970s but was knocked back again in the 1980s.
The building of a new party to the left of new labour therefore has to be a part of the process of regenerating the unions. It is not just a matter of uniting the left ­ uniting the left is a means to that end. This is why any perspective which fails to see the unions as a crucial agency for social change is missing the point.

* This article will appear in the first edition of the new Socialist Resistance magazine which is out soon.

77 responses to “Respect Renewal and Agencies for Social Change – Alan Thornett”

  1. I think Alan Thornett raises some pertinent issues for socailist concerning building a broad left party/alliance. I’ll comment on some of the points he raises when I’ve had time to think about them.

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  2. I liked it too – a good corrective to Perrymanist rightist deviationism (although, as I’ve said before, I think what’s most important about RR is that it can contain both positions and host the debate between them). But I love that image (‘on a clear day’) – where did you get it? I’d like that as a poster.

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  3. PS Sorry Mark – no offence meant. I’m somewhere in the middle myself.

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  4. Speaking as a rishtist deviation..

    Well no not exactly. What I have been arguing for are some basic principles to deepen and distinguish the politics of what I would characterise as a social movement – social democratic party.

    Social movement because it will be framed by the increasing crisis of political representation. It is located primarily outside of the Westminster bubble.

    Social democratic because these are the core broad values Labour has deserted as it both marched rightwards and contributed to this crisis of political representation.

    Are these rightist? No, only if you engage in fantasy politics leftism that seriously believes building a revolutionary socialist party is a useful way to spend your time in 21st century Britain.

    From such a starting points 5 key organisational principles (I used to have 4 but now added a fifth).

    1. Pluralist. There is of course space for revolutionary socialists but the breadth of such a formation will be the test of its success, not its supposed ideological purity. And plural doesn’t just mean politics but breadth of communities too.

    2. Participation. There is no point in being plural unless the levels of participation are high. The SWP are very good at ccreating united fronts but run them with the dead hand of their control culture which creates a corporatiist in place of organic politics.

    3. Prefigurative. Some find the word confusing but not at all ‘ How we do our politics is why we do our politics’. Don’t lecture others on how awfuil the state of the world is if you can’t even make your principles mean something in your own organisation and how it operates.

    4. Porous. Humility is a value widely derided by leftists, we need an organisation that can learn from other forces rather than the tendency to seek always to lead and lecture others.

    5. Pleasure. Yes, if politics is always a chore then it will for ever be restricted to a tiny and unrepresentative band. Don’t treat this as an added-extra, its crucial.

    There is much I would agree with in Alan’s piece but the emphasis is all wrong each time he responds to the attempt to argue for a distinct and deep politics for a Respect Party.

    Yes the RMT and Morning Star represent something but if this is the overwhelming focus on buiolding a broad left party then it it starts off the way it means to go on, narrow.

    Yes demos have a role but if we cannot even raise their often stunning lack of impact, appeal and inspiratiion then we’re stuck with the same old leftist definition of what constitutes protest politics.

    Yes a newspaper can be useful, but in the early twenty-first century if that is the sum total of our communications strategy then we have failed to move very far beyond the mid-nineteenth century in our thinking.

    Yes a wide range of struggles have a role but to ignore the central importance of being shaped by the very distinct profile of Respect’s core support ignores the extraordinary achievement this base in inner-city Muslim communities represents and the way this must shape everything that we do. If we fail to grasp that then the morass of just another Leftist organisatin with some of the nastier practices of the SWP lopped off beckons. Not a very rosy future I’m afraid.

    This isn’t an argument about opposites, or not as far as I can tell, but it is an important matter of emphasis. If these core 5 principles aren’t accepted, deepended and developed then the strategic politics is fundamentally undermined.. And if these kinds of choices are each ducked, or worse, then the tactics are all wrong too. A lethal mix.

    Mark P

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  5. So lets get this right.
    Galloway spends last week on an Iranian funded Gaybait and smearing a dead man.
    He then launches a London campaign from Bahrain where he’s got his head stuck up the arse of a pro war Bahraini Sheikh,trying to get money for a “media project”.

    And its socialism.

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  6. Are these rightist? No, only if you engage in fantasy politics leftism

    To be fair to Alan, the characterisation of your positions as ‘rightist’ was entirely mine, and was made with tongue partly in cheek (obviously I don’t really think you’re guilty of ‘deviationism’). The comment may have been misjudged – I’d hate this to turn into a yah-boo “you’re ultra-left”/”naah, you’re right-wing” slanging-match. I do think it makes sense to see Mark’s position as being to the right of Alan’s, but only in a descriptive sense, if that’s possible. Certainly the RR project needs both elements.

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  7. Phil – here for the pic

    Class struggle bookplate

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  8. Thanks to Alan for a very constructove contribution to the debate, and i will put my hand up as being a “rightist deviationist” in this context.

    I agree that the trade unions represent an important progressive constituency, and crucially have the money, personnel and experience to play a crucial political role – as we are indeed seeing tentative steps from the RMT, FBU, and even GMB over private equity.

    Alan correctly draws attention to the factor of the defeats under thatcher, but I think we also need to give attention to the arguments that Eric Hobsbawm made all those years ago in “forward march of labour halted” about the changing nature of the working class, the lack of a common working class experience, the decline of traditional collective work, etc. So I cannot see the old type of working class party, or working class industrial militancy ever being recreated. Unfortunately the traditional far left view (and I include John McDonnell and many of his supporters here) is nostaligic for a past that perhaps never really existed in the first place.

    So while the trade unions, and traditional focus on the organised working class is still very importnat, we also need to recognise that they are not the only progressive constituency.

    the task is to build a broad political ideological allaince that beleives that society could be run more fairly and justly by putting people before profit, and that in its turn will give a new confidecne and dynamic to rade unionism and class politics. Once that big idea prevails: that the world doesn’t have to be like this, and we can change it, then we are in a different, transformative political context.

    But the broad allaince itself can be and shoudl be much wider than the tradiational left, and its preoccupations.

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  9. When people use the terms “pluralist” and “broad based” I’m never certain what this means. These words seem to get used when people don’t want to talk strategy. They are amorphous words that are really code for the subjugation or a rejection of a class based analysis and strategy.

    Trade union membership peaked in 1979 at 13.2 million and has then gradually fallen to about 6.5 million. This is a significant decrease but unions are still the largest oranisations in our society that represent workers.
    If we examine the levels of membership among non white workers then black workers have a higher density of membership (30.1%) than white workers (29.2%). Membership rates are about 5% lower among Asian and Chinese workers than Black and White workers. This means that unions are the most multicultural of all organisations in our society.

    I think it’s very important to organise among 6.5 million workers as this will have much greater potential to build a multi-cultural left alliance than community based activity. That’s why socialists must make it a priority to organise within unions and argue the case in a left alliance.

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  10. Phil – Don’t worry I could sense exactly where your tongue was stuck with the the ‘rightist deviation’ aside. But once these labels start getting chucked around its so easy for a certain kind of leftist to turn the volume down, not bother listeing because all this guff being spouted about pluralism, participation is just ‘right-wing’.

    Instead I would characterise those whose conception of a broad left of labour party stretches to the tiny CPB and one militant trade union, the RMT and underestimate the importance of pluralism and participation, are the CONSERVATIVE LEFT. Conservative in the sense of being resistant to change. The princioples of pluralism, participation, prefigurative, porous and pleasure on the other hand represent the RADICAL LEFT in the sense of seeing the necessity of a massive change of left culture.

    Ray – you question what a broad, plural party means? Well its simple enough to characterise. One not dominated in terms of membership, branch activists, candidates and spokespersons by one or more small Far Left groups. Instead it would be dominated overwhelmingly by a mix of former members of the Labour Party (not just former members of tiny entryist groups either) and those who once voted Labour but now feel they have no party to vote for. In the case of Respect because of its specific cuircumstances this party should be shaped by the community out of which it has grown, the inner-coty Muslim community. It should have no reservations, make no apology for being shaped in this way, it should see it as a massive plus and understand the depth of the ramifications of the central role this community should play in its organisation. It is key to making Respect distinct and the less9ons learned in the process, however difficult for white leftists who have top vacate the leading role they expect to play, will facilitate a process of reaching out and providing representation to other communities disconnected from the political process.

    Mark P

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  11. Mark you fail to acknowledge that if we want to involve Muslims then organising in the unions is the best place to start. I don’t agree with your claim that Respect has predominately grown out of Muslim participation. In some areas many Muslims have become involved but many of them identify themselves as part of the left or as socalists and do not define their membership of Respect by their religion. Respect is predominantly comprised of non-Muslims so this doesn’t tally with your perspective.

    The history of the left inside Labour is one of acquiesance to the right. The failure of their political strategy and the cowardice of the Trade Union leadership are why we are now in the position of having to rebuild the left. It would be completely foolish to repeat the mistakes of the Labour left whose strategies resolutely failed to challenge neo-liberalism and New Labour. If you believe the leadership of the Labour left operate democratically or pluralistically when it comes to asserting their agenda in an alliance then you must have no experience of working with them. Perhaps that’s why you believe your idea is something new and refreshing. It’s not, it’s just a rehash of what the left inside of Labour have been argueing for decades. Including the concept of a pluralism that divides members into seperate caucuses according to their ethnicity, faith, gender and sexual orientation but fails to give them any power to influence the political direction of the organisation as a whole.

    You’re right about one thing though, we don’t want to repeat the mistakes the left has made in the past for the reasons I’ve outlined above.

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  12. Ray.

    First off have you looked at the figures of TU membership recently? Declining and ageing. You would be hard pressed as well to point to a single Trades Council with more than a passing presence in its local community. Trade Unions are important but please don’t base their continuing relevance on a romantic ideal of what you’d like them to be rather than their current state.

    Second, look at Respect’s council seats, MP, areas of strength. These are overwhelmingly a result of support, votes, from Muslim communities. This is an extraordinary achievement, the result of a very particular mix of factors. If we run away from, question the significance of, fail to be shaped by, this mix then Respect will lose its single best opportunity to establish itself as a distinct and effective political party with significant electoral support.

    Third, the Labour Left has never been transformed by the politics of pluralism, the prefigurative, participation. So their failure in no waty diminishes the centrality of these principles to A Respect Party breaking with a conservative leftist culture.

    Mark P

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  13. Mark, I give the current TU statistics in a previous post to demonstrate that they are still the largest multi-cultural organisations that represent workers and this includes Muslims.

    Respect hasn’t just done well in Muslim areas. If you base the focus on one minority in society then a broad left alliance which is the original and ongoing project will never grow.

    You are argueing the politics of the Labour left who disintegrated under the weight of tokenism and a rejection of class politics. If you want to argue for a failed strategy then at least acknowledge it’s roots.

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  14. Ray

    Er I entirely reject the idea that a pluralist, prefigurative, porous politics has very much in common with whatever variety of the Labour Left you are thinking of.

    The 1979 ‘Beyond the Fragments’, social movements, autonomous politics, aspects of the Gramscian/Eurocommunist Left might be better places to locate for origins. All of which would be challenged and transformed by the dtnamic of a political formation social democratic in content yet led by a section of society hitherto marginalised, at best, by a traditional, white, left. It is this last, and cruial, factor you seem to consistently underestimate in terms of importance.

    Mark P

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  15. Mark’s position seems to be to be to build Respect Renewal as a social democratic party which fights for reforms. Andy’s position has the same under-current dragging him in the same direction: fairness and justice mean different things to different people.

    Firstly, I don’t see how you can build a serious base for a social democratic party in the era of ‘globalisation’ because capitalism has ways of punishing radical governments (which relate to the changes in the international architecture of the system). And we shouldn’t forget that social democracy helped to rescue capitalism at the end of the second world war. Nationalisation was never a step on the road to a new society.

    It’s true that the mantra of ‘socialist solutions’ convinces few people, post 1989. Moreover, these ‘solutions’ are taken as given, when in fact they largely remain on paper.

    But any political programme can only seriously develop in connection with masses of people, who see elements of it as possible and necessary.

    To Mark and Andy I would ask do you think revolutionary change is necessary? Do we need to build a movement which is seeking to make a radical break with capitalism, or are we simply seeking incremental reforms that will improve the circumstances of the working class and the masss of the population.

    Such improvements should not be sniffed at. As a life long trade unioni activist I have done little else but try and win material benefits for workers and to hang on to those they have won. The toy-town revolutionism of the SWP and others, means of course, than the ‘ultimate’ aims remain an abstraction based on the Bolshevik experience.

    In real life, of course, ‘reformists’ are sometimes more useful to the working class than ‘revolutionaries’. Just because you like the idea of revolutionary change is no guarantee that you will be any use fighting for it.

    When Andy talks about a ‘broad aliance’, what is it for? These things are always concrete.

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  16. Mark the Eurocom distortion of socialism failed but it did infect a large part of the left who ditched class politics. It was never about pluralism or democracy but about an elite striking up deals with all sorts of reactionary anti-working class forces.

    In the late 80’s, the Stuart Hall conception of politics was all about an elite group of academics and politicos telling everyone how class was dead and they led the way. They’d ditched Stalinism but hadn’t lost its top down ideology. This led to the fragmentation of the left who chased after reactionary forces with whom they stitched up deals at the expense of workers. The Eurocom distortion of socialism failed and has been exposed as elitist and anti-working class.

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  17. “They’d ditched Stalinism but hadn’t lost its top down ideology.”

    £10 to the cause of the winner’s choice for the best response.

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  18. “Er I entirely reject the idea that a pluralist, prefigurative, porous politics has very much in common with whatever variety of the Labour Left you are thinking of.”

    3P politics? Or does that make four p’s?

    I’m not sure what porous means besides leaky, which I don’t think of as being a good thing but perhaps I misunderstand the jargon.

    As for prefigurative – after seeing this thrown around for a while and asking myself what the hell it meant, I think I get it. I assume by that label, that what you mean is that you want your organizing methods to “prefigure” the way things would be in a future liberated society. If that is the case, why not organize a commune? Why build organizations whose job it is to engage in struggle in this world – after all, that whole basis is counter to what a future society will look like. We won’t be building picket lines or mass demos or boycotts or other forms of militant action under socialism. So, as soon as you organize to struggle you’ve already thrown out “prefigurative” politics. And if you follow the idea of “prefigurative” to its logical conclusion, you end up with lifestyle politics.
    Or perhaps you mean that certain elements of how you organize ought to be prefigurative – but then it becomes theoretically useless to use the “prefigurative” category because you have to specify which elements of a future society’s ethics/organizational methods you think must be incorporated into todays models. The label becomes useless. It doesn’t mean anything. And then what becomes important is a theory of the relationship between means and ends, between methods of struggle and goals. Any Marxist worth their salt understands that there is a connection between these – ie. that ends and means are mutually determining. But to be useful, again, you have to specify concretely how that works.

    As for Eurocommunism and the Labour Left: well, the majority of the Eurocommunists (who used Gramsci to justify their practice in a way that, I think bastardized him) began with radical rhetoric about finding a balance between parliamentary and extra-parliamentary practice but in the end it became clear that the demands of parliament superceded those of the street. It was, in effect, part of the same rightward dynamic on the European continent as that of Bennism in Britain.

    Eurocommunism was, in effect, about a large section of the 60s radicalization, particularly amongst intellectuals, being re-absorbed into reformism. It was Stalinism for a new era and it was about top down politics.

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  19. The article, while addressing a useful discussion re: building a broad left-of-Labour party, is pretty abstract, without a single concrete example of actual organizing that is taking place. Not a single campaign is mentioned by name (even the anti-war movement is mentioned generically without any discussion of the implications of how it is organized, how to relate to it, etc.). There is no discussion of building a sustained strategy of relating to larger forces on the left and in the workers movement. For instance, I don’t think anybody serious could believe that Respect or RR is going to make a breakthrough into the mainstream discourse by recruiting in the ones and twos. It will have to be significant breaks from other organizations that either support no political party or support Labour. How do you do this? This is a difficult and key question.
    Organizing For Fighting Unions was one attempt to answer this question, as much as people might disagree with how that was organized, it’s point was to say that there was a sizable constituency inside the union movement that was thinking beyond the Labour Party and Respect had to relate to it. Galloway and others seemed to have disagreed with it and now, via the Electoral Commission stuff is clearly trying to kill it. Galloway’s answer is, at least in practice if not articulated as an open strategy, to build a mass media following for himself. I can understand where this strategy comes from and why it might seem viable but I think it is to overstate the importance of the media in generating political allegiances. Media allegiances are fundamentally shallow because they lack organizational weight and are largely experienced in an atomized way.
    There is also – unaddressed – an approach that looks to building up local weight and roots as a means of thrusting outwards. But the question here becomes, at what point does the local focus become an end in itself, with its own dynamic and tendency towards parochialism? And when is too soon to push more broadly to expand breadth as well as depth? Can seeking to expand before a local hegemonic base has been created de-stabilize the roots that already exist? What does it mean to expand beyond local roots in terms of geography, breadth of political, ethnic, gender, etc. representation in public positions? There is no easy answer to this and it is clear that a different attitude to this question played a significant role in the inner party disputes.
    Frankly, to me, these are more important questions than whether to produce a monthly paper or a broadsheet handout. How will you win individuals from Labour as a prelude to winning whole constituency parties or whole caucuses like the LRC? You have to have a strategy to interface with them and newspapers, I’m afraid, are a pretty small part of the puzzle. But I don’t see anything here beyond the usual small socialist group approach to building on a propaganda basis. If you want a mass party, that simply will not cut the mustard.

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  20. Martin – I really don’t care whether people believe in the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism or not. Except for moments of considerable exception this has been such a faraway possibility in Britain for the past 100 years it is really of such utter irrelevance it doesn’t bear thinking about.

    As for reformism, well chance would be a fine thing! Instead we get PFI, renewal of Trident, detention without trial, War in Iraq, anti trade union laws. A few reforms would make pleasant political change.

    This is what the Far Left don’t get. New Labour has dragged politics so far to the right a Social Democratic party attracting considerable votes would right now be a huge advance. This is the measure of our enormous collectiuve failure, to fill the Left space Labour abandoned. Anything else is a distraction, talk of revolutionary socialism a woeful indulgence.

    Liam – My bid for your tenner (which would help fund the translation of the Love Music Hate Racism carnival leaflets into Polish). Given virtually nobody defends the legacy of ‘Uncle Joe’ or bothers with debating the socialist status or otherwise of the USSR chucking labels around like ‘Stalinist’ just reveals the inadequacies of the chucker’s politics.

    More revealing perhaps is how left groups organise. Top-down versions of democratic centralism, unchanging central committees, unbending party lines, intolerance of dissent, party front organisations. Well theres a fair few Trotskyite organisations who could give the Stalinists a run for their money on each and every one of these counts. If we must stick with the labels that accounting might be more useful.

    And finally, on Stalinism, if you want to find those who would defend Unvle Joe’s legacy, the socialist achievements of the USSR and the essentials of Marxist-Leninist organisation look no further than Andrew Murray and the CPB, who strangely enough both the SWP and Alan Thornett both court as essential allies in any Respect coalition! Confusing? Just a shade.

    Red Bedhead. 5 P’s actually from Mark P
    – Plural
    – Participative
    – Prefigurative
    – Porous
    – Pleasure

    You question 2 of them in particular.

    Porous : a political culture that is open, not closed, the capacity to learn from others outside of the organisation and tradition, to listen, not always assume we have the answers, not assume leadership as of right .

    Which I would counterpose to the value traditionally given to purity. Of course there are forces we don’t want to be changed by but this purism has cut off the Left from constituencies it presumes to have all the answers for yet refuses to be shaped and transformed by.

    Prefigurative: how we do our politics is why we do our politics.

    Communes? Lifestyle politics? Not necessarily, though why you consider either are a retreat friom politics goodness only knows because both could teach the Left a thing or two. More immediately if for example we think the sole expression of protest is a march from A-B with optional extra of same old speaskers at the end of it. If our sole expression of communicating politics is selling a newspaper on a Saturday morning outside Tescos. If our idea of a good night out is a rally of tub-thumpig rhetoric. Then what kind of vision of our politucs are we offering? What kind of inspiration of the better world we believe in? The bitter resiststance to the prefigurative in some quarters is indicative I’m afraid of a strtling lack of political imagination that the far left in particular suffers from.

    Eurocommunism and its faults? Well as it no longer exists in a meaningful way the debate is a tad historic. But what these breathless enthusiasts for an unreconstructed far left seem to ignore is their utter marginality to the breadth of discontent with new Labour and almost zero influence outside of their own disciplined ranks. Critics and discontents with new Labour come from a broad variety of political backgrounds and traditions, which together massivelt outnumber the far left. It is the scale of the Left’s collective failure that the organised expression (mostly disorganised) of this discontent so far has been almost exclusively limited to the far left. If Respect is to succeed as a broad, left-of-labour party it will have to break with that sorry record.

    As for Europe, if we took the continent’s politics seriously we would understand that England is virtually unique in not having a mass left-of-labour party. And we would recognise that these parties across Europe come from a range of traditions – Communist, Trotskyist, Maoisy, Social-Democratic – but where they have succeeded they have managed to develop the ability to co-exist with other traditions. The singular failure being France where such co-existence has proved example and the potential to challenge the PS, and now SArkozy has been fatally weakened as a result.

    In England we have not even begun to build an effective left-of-labour Party, but when we do if we really think its going to be founded on an amalgam of tiny far left groups and the fantasy that is this resurgent Trade Union rank and file bursting to overthrow its right-wing leadership then frankly its not worth the effort. Respect ‘s base is in inner-city Muslim communities, this should be the core of A Respect Party, not the limit of our ambutions of course, but by being shaped by the experience of organising within, representing a part of, one of the most disenfranchised section of society we will learn how to connect to others. Underestimate the centrality of that experience and its just another miniscule and irrelevant far left group of compulsive squabblers you end up with. No thankyou.

    Mark P

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  21. Mark you make the claim that you want pluralism and democracy in an alliance but then go on to reject socialist strategy out of hand.
    The picture you paint of socialists impeading the growth and democracy of Respect does not tally with the historial facts. Without socialists Respect would not have grown and attracted to it Muslims and non-Muslim members. Nor would it have been able to select election candidates that socialists did not agree with if it had been under the control of the SWP.

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  22. Dude, your 5 P’s sounds a bit too much like hospitality management school slogans to me.

    As for porous – um, learning from others. Ok. I don’t see anyone disagreeing with this – except for Martin. And porous, participative and plural are all, really, saying the same thing.

    Prefigurative – frankly, this just sounds like rhetoric. Give me some concrete examples, as opposed to just attacking other people’s hard work to build marches and rallies. And chances are I will reply to your examples by saying that they are just as much symbolic as any A-to-B march, etc. and that after you do them twice they will become somebody else’s “same-old-same-old.” The problem isn’t the marches, which really should be just the high point of ongoing community based organizing in any case (involving any number of types of event depending on local conditions). The problem is the difficulty of breaking thru to the kind of action that is more than just symbolic and actually damages the ability of the war-mongers to carry on with business-as-usual. That means tapping into the latent power of workers. StWC tried to do that at the peak of the movement, calling for strikes against the war, and it didn’t generalize for the simple reason that the organizational basis to carry it off – and the confidence and political willingness – didn’t exist inside the UK working class. If it didn’t exist in the immediate aftermath of a 2 million strong demo it doesn’t exist now.
    As for communes – I live on a continent (N. America) where the left has over and over again retreated onto communes when the struggle in the cities has been forced into retreat – certainly for over a century, perhaps two. They have ALWAYS ended badly. However, if people want to move to the woods and set up an organic farm – go right ahead. But let’s not pretend that it’s anything but a lifestyle choice limited to a very tiny segment of the population.

    “But what these breathless enthusiasts for an unreconstructed far left seem to ignore is their utter marginality to the breadth of discontent with new Labour and almost zero influence outside of their own disciplined ranks.”

    Whereas you and your 5P model has mobilized how many people? What examples can you point to – and don’t just give me names of parties like Die Linke, give me examples of how they organized along 5P lines? You may not have noticed but NOBODY has managed to figure out how to unlock that little problem of serious influence and it’s not primarily because of how the far left has organized. It has to do with much bigger forces, the weight of history, the role of the union machinery in maintaining institutional allegiances, etc.

    The trouble is, for me, your arguments are either banal (be open to new ideas, “pleasure”?), uncontroversial except amongst the thoroughly sectarian (who long for a united party of far left debating societies), or completely abstract.

    You make one, totally legitimate, point: that the Muslim community must be the foundation stone for a springboard into a necessarily broader base inside the working class of Britain. But this isn’t, in the way you’ve formulated, being debated by any of the principal players in the Respect/RR split. Respect was founded on precisely and explicitly that understanding – and the sectarian idiots didn’t involve themselves for exactly that reason. The question of the day is how to move outwards and forwards from that key base because if you don’t expand beyond it you will not just miss the opportunity to win support amongst the broader working class, you will lose your base in the Muslim community as well.

    As for the “fantasy that is this resurgent Trade Union rank and file bursting to overthrow its right-wing leadership…” I’m afraid my friend that you are backing yourself into a pretty tiny corner. If you want a party that mobilizes millions of votes, you’re going to need more than a base inside a community that makes up much less than 10% of the British population (and you’re not going to win them all). You better start to theorize where and how you are going to get the non-Muslim working people to support your project and it can’t be by ones and twos because that will take you until the Second Coming. So you better start to think institutionally how to break off sections of organizations towards a broad left party – and the unions are the biggest voluntary organizations in Britain (potential economic and political power aside). They are thus a key place where the Muslims you have won already are in an interface with non-Muslim workers that you hope to win. You write the unions off as a fantasy at your peril.

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  23. Hmm…the Second Coming…I wonder if we should consider that among the list of non-marxist strategies for liberation. File under “Blair” and “Christian socialism”.

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  24. Ray. No I didn’t reject ‘socialist strategy’ (of what variety?) what I explicitly said was that such a strategy should form part of a plural left project, not be reduced to it or its supporters (of how many varieties). Not the same thing at all.

    Redbedhead. Examples of the prefigurative. Legion across the breadtyh of liberation and social movements. The fact the organised left is so unfamiliair, in fact bordering on the hostile, to this basic principle of progressive organisation speaks volumes of its own conservative methinds of organising which are almost eclusively top-down.

    Redbedhead, again. Look I wasn’t claiming that anyone has got it right. In fact I explicitly described 1997- as a period of massive defeat, including for a Stop the War movement that has been in headlong decline since 15 Feb 2003 and that when push should have come to shove hadn’t a clue what to do with 2 million supporters. This requires a serious rethink on all our parts. The fault line lies on recognising the necessity for such a rethink and the depth of this defeat. Some seem to think that either the SWP or a cobbled together amalgam of Respect, CPB , Bob Crowe will do it. I don’t.

    Redbedhead, finally. Look like Ray you’re suggesting I’m writing off things that I’m not. The trade unions remain an important organised force for change in cicil society. But to pretend that they are in anything like a healthy state, aren’t suffering the same decline of, and ageing, membership as other Labour movement/Left organisations and are getting ready to play a full and active part in the constitution of an outside left, party of social-democracy is a wilful fantasy.

    I am likewise not argiung that Respect’s ambition is limited to being shaped by, providing a platform for the self-organisation and representation of inner-city Muslim communities. What I argued instead was that this experience is of such fundamental importance to Respect was that we will learn from our successes and failures in working with, and for, one of the most disenfranchised and demonised sections of late capitalist society. Get this right and we will have the tools to build effective alliances with other communities and social movements. Get it wrong, squander that support, and never mind the second coming, we ain’t got a prayer.

    Mark P

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  25. The attempt to redefine more traditional ideological demarcations of left and right with demarcations based on radical and conservative approaches to organisational questions sounds a bit third wayish to me. As with that body of thought it seems to be a way of avoiding rather then engaging with real political questions. Its also deeply unclear that Mark P isn’t as exclusivist ideologically as those he see’s as his opponents (the little shopping list of commitments that must be signed up to in order to avoid the outer darkness; importantly the idea of anything outside of mainstream social democracy as irrelevent is ideologically simply to swim with the stream, and represents an argument any activist has to confront, hopefully in imaginative ways, when arguing in favour of some sort of left of the left alternative).

    Even the language used is redolent of a very particular kind of political tradition that is far from new and seems to involve the kind of combinations of new movementism and trot-baiting right wing social democratic thought which gave eurocommunism in Britain its particular spin.

    The real question is whether there is an audience for this kind of thing, and whether, therefore, these arguments will become significant either within RR or outside of it. I have to admit I was intrigued to see the revival of this sort of political rhetoric again (the main suspects here being Mark P, Andy Newman, and, only occassionally, Ger). I’m unclear whether this is simply the result of disillusionment with a particular brand of revolutionary politics, or on the other hand is related to something more objective. Mark P I understand does come of the British Communist tradition, whilst Andy has been pushing Hobsbawn’s ‘foward march of labour halted’ for some time now (before he rejoined Respect). Working these things out from reading blogs is like reading tea leaves, but I find it genuinely odd. Its not as if most people on the far left are not familiar with the disasterous consequences of these politics both on the industrial front and in relationship to politics. Interestingly by the late 1980’s MT functioned largely as a political ginger group. It wasn’t unsuccessful in that function but its unclear whether this could be equated with progress for the left.

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  26. Hey Mark:

    “Redbedhead. Examples of the prefigurative. Legion across the breadtyh of liberation and social movements. The fact the organised left is so unfamiliair, in fact bordering on the hostile, to this basic principle of progressive organisation speaks volumes of its own conservative methinds of organising which are almost eclusively top-down.”

    I’m asking you to give me some examples, particularly successful ones, of this type of politic, so that there’s something for me to engage with other than a slogan. I don’t think that’s conservative on my part and I don’t believe “prefigurative politics” is a basic principle. And I’m hardly a person who’s transfixed by the A-to-B march, I organize amongst artists and have been part of organizing large festivals, simultaneous play readings, film festivals, puppet construction workshops, cabarets, etc.

    “Look I wasn’t claiming that anyone has got it right. In fact I explicitly described 1997- as a period of massive defeat, including for a Stop the War movement that has been in headlong decline since 15 Feb 2003 and that when push should have come to shove hadn’t a clue what to do with 2 million supporters.”

    I don’t know what the reference is to 1997 viz 2003. As for StWC, I find it fascinating that for someone who believes in politics that are “prefigurative” you don’t see the contradiction in thinking that just because 2 million people came out you don’t actually have their deep, active allegiance. February 15 has to be understood as a high water mark, as a moment in a growing society-wide sense that the war had to be – and could be – stopped. StWC tried to deepen and radicalize the core with the call for strikes and occupations when any war started. They had a basis for making that call as train workers had refused the transport of weapons. But there was only a very limited response to the general call.
    The failure to sustain 2 million people on the streets was not the result of the failure of the StWC to mobilize in the correct way and represents the strangest reversal of a major success I’ve seen. Instead of examining the way that the StWC was able to achieve this HISTORIC event – you instead turn it around and see it as an example of failure. This shocks me but, nonetheless, we have to be clear that in the many countries in which there were large mobilizations on February 15 – Italy, Spain, US, UK, Canada, Greece, et al. – there was a decline after the war started because that’s how movements go. Each large demonstration doesn’t lead to the next one and this is independent of strategy. It was the case during the anti-Vietnam movement, it was the case during the Civil Rights movements, etc. etc. The continued growth of movements requires, as much as anything, the right combination of political conditions. And people who had never engaged with demonstrating or grassroots politics before saw the launch of the war in Iraq as a defeat. There’s simply no way you organize around that. The fact that StWC has kept together a mobilized core of some tens of thousands must be your starting point for any examination of what can be done better.

    As for the unions, you made a disparaging comment and I pointed to the fact that the unions – decrepit, conservative and ageing – have more members than there are Muslims in Britain. That doesn’t mean you neglect to organize the Muslim community, nor does it mean that the Muslim community isn’t your first priority because they are that section of the working class that is moving and radicalizing. My point has simply been that if you don’t move beyond that minority community and push outwards, you risk being isolated and in being isolated, you will lose the base that you’ve already won. If you want to consolidate and deepen your roots in the Muslim community, link it up with sections of the Labour movement, the union movement, other radicalizing sections of the working class. What will strengthen your base is not to fetishize the Muslim community, as though hermetically sealed, but to link it in solidarity with other communities. It is in that solidarity that political confidence is maintained and a deepened radicalism is developed – not through a conservative and defensive attempt to focus exclusively on that community to the effective exclusion of other sources of political potential.

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  27. johng – by the way, I agree with you.

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  28. Redbedhead,

    I have heard that Callaghans book on British Trotskyism has become popular amongst some in RR. Its a book reviewed here by Duncan Hallas:

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/works/1984/09/brittrot.htm

    I noticed on re-reading the review Duncan’s point about a narrowness of focus on internal structures of small trotskyist organisations at the expense of any wider discussion of the bureacratic deformities of actually existing social democracy. Its a structure of argumentation which would be quite useful for contemporary third wayish type imports into the left (although of course the author of the book shares no responsibility for that).

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  29. Redbehead and John G.

    This is in all honest a bit of a fruitless dialogue and I’m sure we’ve all got better uses of our time. You both in differing ways sem to think that a SWp version, or similar of revolutionary socialism is the best left wing template for social change in early Twenty-First Century Britain and that because it style itself revolutionary socialism it is by definition Left.

    I entirely disagree. I find the entire way of organising by such groups incredibly conservative and that this has a direct, and negative, impact on the coalitions they seek to form. I’m not exactly alone in such an opinion.

    You of course style this as right-wing and indulge in rather out of date slloganising masquerading as political analysis to justify your point of view. I don’t particularly care if you think I’m left, right or somewhere in between, the way you stick these labels on others is entirely worthless. What is certainly case that thanks to your conservatism, and you’re of couyrse not alone with this, you resist critiques of how the far left organise. To that extent the labelling conservative vs radical has some limited validity.

    As I say the dialogue is fruiitless. Lets revist after 1 May when either in a stunning reversal the SWP Left List leaves Respect far behind to establish itself as a credible political force, or… Respect humiliates its former SWP allies and makes serious strides forward towards becoming a post-SWP Respect Party.

    2 May, that will be an interesting day on the blogs. Lets hope both sideas have the good sense to provide honest accounts of their endeavours.

    Mark P

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  30. The pluralists always refuse a dialogue in my experiance. Suddenly its just about who has the biggest divisions. This again simply recreates attitudes any socialist who confronted these rather old fashioned ideas in the 1980’s will be deeply familiar with. Thing is we’ve been through all this before, and this kind of revival of the dead is no way foward for the left.

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  31. Mark, why is this a competition between your strategy and ours? If, as you claim, we should have a pluralist approach to strategy then why not wish both sides well instead of polarising it into oppositions?

    I hope both the Left List and Renewel do well. If this is the case it may revive confidence in the movement and encourage the possibility of working together in the future.

    This doesn’t mean that there won’t be disagreements about strategy and ultimately an organisation needs consistancey. What I don’t recognise is the picture that you paint of Respect pre-split preventing members organising in many different ways, some of which you have described. If, as you claim, you have no problem with demo’s, organising in unions etc. then why not let that continue and supplement this with the strategy you would like to develop? No one in Respect was stopping you from doing this but perhaps the interest in your strategy was not as popular as you would have liked. What I object to is imposing a strategy that has little popular support upon members just because you claim it’s correct.

    The reason we have conferences and delegates voting in Respect rather than an think tank imposing it’s strategy from above is to ensure that we reach a majority decision. That is pluralism and democracy in action.

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  32. Mark P is obviously an intelligent and thoughtful bloke,. But he’s wrong about socialist strategy and he’s wrong about the revolutionary left, or at least the outook represented by Socialist Resistance.

    First up, it’s obvious that in this very, very defensive period the left has to mobilise around pretty basic issues that don’t have much ‘revolutionary’ charge. The thing animating my local community (and lots of others) is defense of our local post offices. After that it’s defense of Whipps Cross hospital. Who would have thought 40 years ago, that a Labour government would be leading such insane policies on things that are basic to the functioning of any society with a minimal level of social solidarity (that, by the way, is where social democracy has got us). Moreover, being against imperialist wars is not necessarily socialist either. This is all basic stuff. Who thinks that the left now needs to concentrate on more ‘revolutionary’ issues. No one (or no one sane).

    But why does this prevent us having an overall anti-capitalist outlook and strategy? I don’t get it. SR has always argued that now we need to build a broad anti-capitalist party and that it is not possible at this time to build a mass revolutionary party.

    But getting rid of capitalism has to be our goal, given the scale of the current crisis of human civilisation. As John Bellamy Foster says, given the scope of the ecolologicsal crisis, revolution is the only answer.

    Second, the five Ps and prefiguritive stuff. This is not new, but was a characteristic of the mass parties of the pre-war period (especially, for example, of the German KPD and SPD). Given the atomisation and privatisation of society and leisure today, this is extremely difficult to reproduce, except where you have already existing local communities with a strong sense of unity and identity. You can’t reproduce the situation of the Asian communities in east London and Birmingham with a magic wand; if you could the situation of Respect would be entirely different.

    The insistence that everything should be ‘new’ on the left (some people have made a 30-year career out of it) is like an itch you can never scratch. It is basically saying “if only we adopted this (my) new approach” things would be a lot better for the left”. It can always be said and is by definition impossible to disprove. In Mark’s case what he calls ‘new’ is very vague and has a slippery, fugitive status, hard to pin down. The real interest is in the detail.

    New policies, tactics, initiatives, action, approaches can be put forward and tested out. In Respect Renewal there should be a massive space for experiment. Then we can make an assessment. But experiments and new tactics don’t have to be counterposed to more tried and trusted things like demos, conferences, trade unions etc.

    And on the issues of demonstrations I agree with what Neal Ascherson says in his very thoughtful New Statesman article on 5 years since the start of the war:

    “And you happy, angry millions who flooded the streets five years ago – what do you feel now? “Not in My Name”? But a few days later it was done in your name, in spite of your passion. Blair pretended to take no notice; the next election did not throw him out; the killing has not stopped.

    “Does that mean that it’s time to shrug and move on, that all passion against unjust war is futile? I don’t think so. Demonstrations frighten governments more than they admit. Those who take part in them are changed, remembering a sense of strength that can last a lifetime. Meanwhile, the world has not moved on, but continues to burn; the madmen on all sides do not shrug but are laying new plots. Marchers with a passion for justice will be needed again, perhaps sooner than we think.”

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  33. Mark P’s ‘new’ ideas are all old hat – they make me feel quite nostalgic for my days at the GLC. Phil Hearse’s response is spot-on.

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  34. If they’re ‘old hat’ I look forward to this super-duper Respect Party lash-up with the dynamic forces of the CPB, Bob Crow and a resurgent trade union militant rank and file syormong the citadels of paerliamentary democracy. Such a prospect I suspect is considerably more antique in the milinery department.

    On the other hand I find the idea of a Respect Party founded on the experiences of one of the most disenfranchised sections of society, which sees its faith as a key part of its identity, that has achieved the kind of electoral breakthrough the far left grouplets have spectacularly failed to secure, rather new hat. A certain pomposity reigns in sections of the left, ignore these achievements, cos we have our Marx and Lenin, our socialist strategy, our decades worth of experience in our tiny groups achieving goodness knows how little, we must have the answers, and the leadership.

    I know which hat I’d prefer, and I know which hat has actually achieved something out of the defeats of the last 11 years of Blairist-Brownism. The glaring inability to comprehend the scale of the far left’s ineptitude in the face of this defeat never fails to impress. Thankyou for confirming this and good night.

    Mark P

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  35. Mark, do you really believe that Muslims are the agent of change in our society? If that’s the case then you are not taking into account the wide diversity of ideas and political beliefs among Muslims in the UK. They are not an homogenous block who will all follow your strategy.
    That’s why socialists look for what is common between all workers whether they are Black, Muslim, white, men, women, gay etc. We all experience class oppression and that’s what unites us. Without a reason for unity we will remain seperated in these crude categories you assign to us.

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  36. Ray’s crass little lecture of working class unity is not even worthy of a response. Alan raises serious issues but I think his article is marred by some false arguments. So, in the spirit of fraternal debate…

    There are nuanced discussions to be had about the state of the anti-war movement, TU’s, political consciousness etc. It is obvious STWC has suffered defeats but I have heard nobody argue that ‘the anti-war movement had been defeated and that the whole of society is moving to the right.’ Nor do those of us who reject the SWP’s hurdy gurdy about the balance of class forces conclude ‘we should drop all this left-wing stuff and follow society to the right’. Nor has anybody claimed that community-based struggles ‘have now replaced the organised working class as an agency for progressive social change.’ Nor is there any downplaying about the importance of ideology. As I stated elsewhere, Respect needs to embed itself on firmer ideological ground. For me, that ground is a deepening of our anti-imperialism, anti-racism and opposition to neo-liberalism. To reduce that to being in essence ‘not much to the left of the Liberal Democrats’ is just silly. In London the Lib Dem Mayoral candidate is supporting PPP on the underground, in Birmingham they are in coalition with the Tories and busying pushing through a PFI deal on the city’s roads. They also support the war in Afghanistan. I could go on.

    As for new organising methods; we don’t have to reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of old ones to be dusted off and reapplied. In Birmingham, amongst other things, we are attempting a voter registration drive, running advice surgeries, copying Tower Hamlets in attempting to set up a youth wing, taking Palestinian twinning down to local level, and trying to develop strategies that encourage TU and community interaction and solidarity. To that end Salma Yaqoob recently pitched to Birmingham Trades Council a ‘community unionism’ strategy (drawing on TELCO’s best practice in East London) to help build solidarity over the council workers Single Status battle. True to form, they had neither the wit nor imagination to be bothered to take up on it, but after the elections, we will. As countless SWP branches and former Respect branches whose routine was determined by the SWP will testify, the paste table, leafleting, come to our meeting routine, only goes so far.

    Of course Respect should have the spirit and practice of both movement and party. Salma said the same when she first floated her ideas about a new political formation over five years ago. But any campaign worth its salt will not be dependant upon Respect support. Respect on the other hand will be judged as a success or failure depending on whether we advance at the ballot box. The experience of the Socialist Alliance should at least tell us that. For example, if we don’t get a third seat in Birmingham this May we will be perceived to have suffered a defeat, irrespective of what community campaigns we are involved in or whether our overall vote goes up.

    As the SWP are about to discover, electoral politics is a brutal game. Right now the emphasis inside Respect needs to be towards the electoral struggle, learning from others best practice, generalising, trying to level up across the country, building localised bases from which serious election campaigns can be launched, thinking through how we infuse our work with politics because only by so doing will we best protect ourselves from the pitfalls of electoralism. (Unfortunately however, there is no totally successful vaccine against this.) Unless we shift emphasis in this way many comrades will stick with the routines they are most comfortable with and Respect will never progress beyond its strongest bases in South Birmingham and East London. None of this work is counterposed to community or TU campaigning. Even if the political situation shifts favourably, you have to be in a position to make reap benefits from it. In much of the country Respect pre split was not in any such condition. While SWP members played an important role in the establishment of Respect, their method of work acted as a fetter on Respect in the vast majority of places where they had influence. To go forward, we must break decisively with much of their legacy, and have the humility to learn from others, non-Marxists, who can teach us a thing or two.

    Finally, my understanding of the SR position would have been by helped differentiating what is meant by a ‘broad anti-capitalist party’ and a Marxist party. Maybe Phil can pick up that point.

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  37. Crass I might be but unlike Ger I’ve not abandoned scientific socialism for utopian socialism. I’m pleased to see Renewal is getting stuck into activity but that still doesn’t explain why a so-called socialist like Ger is supporting Livingstone as 1st preference. The best vaccine for electoralism is to vote for socialist candidates who haven’t bought into neo-liberalism and who want to oppose it.

    Ger claims to have not noticed any Renewal supporters dismissing the anti-war demo, rubbishing the StWC, locating the agent of change in the Muslim community and supporting Livingstone who is promoting PFI. Somehow he’s missed the debates criticisising organising in unions, going on demonstrations and having paper sales. I find this hard to believe as he’s been involved in these debates on SUN.

    When Ger claims that we must break decisively with much of the SWP’s legacy it appears that he means breaking with a commitment to fight for a left agenda and organise among rank and file workers. Yaqoob’s top down approach of imposing TELCO’s popular frontism on workers in Birmingham is bound to be met with suspicion. Activists can’t expect to parachute in and expect workers to follow. A socialist conception of building in the unions is through rank and file organisation rather than through popular frontism.

    Perhaps Ger could define what he means by a “broad anti-capitalist party”. He appears to be promoting a popular front of utopian socialists. This is the opposite of the scientific socialism of Marx and Lenin. My understanding of the formation of Respect was to rebuild the left and develop a left alliance. It seems that this project has been abandoned by Ger and he believes we must now engage in building a popular front that is attempting to distance itself from the left. In which case it has a lot in common with the politics of the Lib Dems.

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  38. Yes. Crass you are. There is a difference between being critical of specific anti-war tactics and saying ‘the anti-war movement had been defeated and that the whole of society is moving to the right.’ There is a difference between criticizing OFFU, not just for the irresponsibly and incompetence of John Rees but also because it was nothing more than an SWP front and therefore not a serious way to conduct a TU strategy, and saying community-based struggles ‘have now replaced the organised working class as an agency for progressive social change.’

    I defy you to produce a single piece of evidence to substantiate your claim that I, or anybody else in Respect for that matter, locates ‘the agent of change in the Muslim community’. The latest thread on the Livingstone debate at Andy’s site gives you all the answers you need on that issue. Post 128 by ‘Stuart Leighton’ best articulates the differences between a strategy aimed at progressing the totality of the left, and a sectarian one aimed at progressing one part of it.

    As for ‘Yaqoob’s top down approach of imposing TELCO’s popular frontism on workers in Birmingham’ (!!) you obviously have not got the faintest idea what you are taking about which no amount of toy-town Bolshevik references to ‘popular frontism’ and ‘scientific socialism’ can mask. (By your criteria STWC would qualify by as a ‘popular front’ one by virtue of the fact Charles Kennedy spoke on the Feb 15th platform. You use the term as a form of abuse, and display no Marxist understanding of its orgins).

    I will put money, by the way, that you are not a member of the SWP. By and large they don’t tend to use this kind of Spart-speak.

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  39. Well, let’s just remind people that Ray, who posts as “Unity is strength” on Socialist Unity, claims to have been a member of the SWP for some 18 years.

    Personally, I suspect that he hasn’t been active in any meaningful way in building Respect or the anti-war movement, which may explain the way he can’t stop attacking people, refusing to acknowledge any of the actual points his opponents make, and outright lying about people like me (links already provided, lies already proven to be so).

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  40. Just a quick point in reply to Ger. I didn’t contrast a broad anti-capitalist party and a ‘Marxist’ party; rather I contrasted a broad anti-capitalist party and a revolutionary party.

    What’s the difference between the two? A revolutionary party, by definition, is a party that sets itself the conscious goal of the revolutionary reconstitution of society, trains its members in that spirit and works towards that goal.

    A broad anti-capitalist party, like Italian Communist Refoundation before its right turn, champions the struggles of the working class and the oppressed, fights to go beyond capitalism but has within it a spectrum of opinions on overall, long-term strategy. And this formula worked fine in Italy until the Bertinotti leadership decided it had to vote in favour of Italian troops in Afghhanistan and participate in the Prodi government.

    Let’s put it this way. The ‘s’ in Respect is for socialism, innit? And surely there is no disagreement among participants in this debate that a society based on egalitarianism and social solidarity has to have a different set of social relations than those provided by the capitalist market. How we get there is another question: until capitalism is history no one will have definite proof of how to do it and different opinions on this are inevitable in RR.

    The political line of ‘broad anti-capitalist parties’ is explained in the French context by Olivier Besancenot at http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1451.

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  41. Ger, again you attempt to ignore or excuse the discussions on SUN. If I’m so crass and a toy town bloshevik how come the SWP and Alan Thornett raise similar concerns? But then again we’re just the boring old left who’ve had our day aren’t we?

    I suppose I could trawl through SUN and pull out quotes but I’ll let those reading this browse SUN and draw their own conclusions. It’ll give Andy more hits that way.

    If you seriously think that TELCO as opposed to OFFU or any other rank and file network is the way to organise workers then you really have become a utopian socialist who believes that a popular front comprised of a majority of religious groups is the way forward. Have you checked out their membership listing? While I don’t doubt their sincerity and compliment them on some of their achievements do you really believe this is the way forward for rank and file workers and the left?

    Ger and tonyc, it’s your style to insult people when threatened but this only gets in the way of your arguements. Call me what you like, cast aspersions as you wish but that doesn’t halt the rightwards drift of your politics.

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  42. ‘Ray’, read what I wrote again. I never said ‘opposed’ TELCO to any trade union strategy. That is your invention. But claiming Respect (or me or whoever) aspires to build a ‘popular front comprised of a majority of religious groups’ is a first. Congratulations. I will leave it to Alan confirm whether he is with you, and the SWP apparently, on that one. If I were you though, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

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  43. Ofh for gods sake TonyC you sanctimonious idiot.All you’ve achieved is helping a self promoting,bent gaybaiter to raise his income.
    Fool.

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  44. Ger, when you use NuLab phrases like, “best practice”, to refer to TELCO in East London, completely dismiss OFFU and don’t offer any rank and file alternative to TELCO in your post then alarm bells start ringing for socialists.

    Perhaps Ger was at the Round Chapel for the 11th anniversary of TELCO where they gave Barclays, Macquarie and PricewaterhouseCoopers Living Wage Employer awards? I think rank and file workers deserve an organisation representing them that actually involves them and goes a lot further than awarding employers for giving workers what is a right not a privilage. The fact that Yaqoob is pitching TELCO to Birmingham Trades Council and nothing else must be rather worrying for socialists in Renewal.

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  45. Instead of the phrase, “…goes a lot further than…”, in my last post make that, “…DOESN’T award employers for giving workers what is a right not a privilage.” Otherwise it sounds like I’m advocating even bigger prizes for those good ol’ employers! LOL!

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  46. In the old version of Respect in this part of the world some of Telco’s keenest advocates were SWP members. They were right to argue for having a relationship with it and it’s a little bit disingenuous to suddenly start adducing support for Telco as proof of being right wing.

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  47. I’ve not dismissed TELCO nor do I say that we shouldn’t have a relationship with it. But presenting big business with awards isn’t an alternative to rank and file organisation in our unions. Ger is dismissive of OFFU and talking up TELCO and that’s not the way forward for the left.

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  48. I was dismissive of OFFU because it was never much more than an SWP front. In addition, thanks to John Rees, it is now stands completely discredited. Don’t think so? You try putting a motion to your TU branch seeking money or affiliation and see how far you get. OFFU has no future and will be shut down by the SWP at the least embarrassing moment.

    Nor am I counterposing TU and community unionism strategies. There are ways of getting communities supportive and working alongside TU’s for common good. But any understanding of this point seems to be beyond your capacity to grasp.

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  49. “In addition, thanks to John Rees”… or maybe thanks to Galloway the rat, who finked to the Electoral Commission in a transparent attempt to destroy something with which he disagrees politically and doesn’t control.

    “will be shut down by the SWP” – one of the entertaining things about reading stuff from RR is their enthusiasm for predictions. I believe you, Ger, and Andy and Tonyc were predicting that Respect would definitely not be running any mayoral campaign because they didn’t have the materials out by the end of 2007. Oops.
    I believe you predicted that your Broad Left/Progressive slate, mooted in the media and on your website would attract (was attracting) all sorts of people. Then it sorta disappeared to halfway down your news page. So much for that prediction.
    Then there was the outrage that Respect was endangering the RR campaign for the GLA, which was clearly in position to win a seat for Galloway. But yet there was no public material on your website 6 weeks prior to election, nor even had you chosen all your candidates yet. Well, that was a bit off.

    So, your constant assertions about what will happen in the future really don’t carry much weight. It’s probably best to stick to past and present – though your record here isn’t so hot either.

    “To that end Salma Yaqoob recently pitched to Birmingham Trades Council a ‘community unionism’ strategy (drawing on TELCO’s best practice in East London) to help build solidarity over the council workers Single Status battle. True to form, they had neither the wit nor imagination to be bothered to take up on it, but after the elections, we will.”

    I don’t agree with all of Ray’s formulations but I think it’s entirely reasonable for him to question your seeming claim that this is the best model to build solidarity for a strike in Birmingham. And, given your rather high-handed attitude to the union in the middle of a strike campaign over a major issue – which reads like “we have the right strategy, do it our way or we’re not interested in working with you” – it is perfectly reasonable for Ray to call your strategy top-down.
    Since neither you nor Salma are in the union, maybe your attitude should be to go to the union and say “we see this as a key issue, what can we do to build support for you?” – rather than dictating to them. Why the heck should a union listen to a councillor with no union experience for strategic direction? Have you brought significant numbers to the picket lines to show you’re serious? Have you organized public meetings and/or solidarity collections in the community to prove your support is more than just talk? Who are you to them?
    Perhaps it is you who has “neither the wit nor imagination” to find a way to build a relationship with the most important strike struggle in your city. Maybe a bit of modesty would be useful.

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  50. “I believe you, Ger, and Andy and Tonyc were predicting that Respect would definitely not be running any mayoral campaign because they didn’t have the materials out by the end of 2007”

    As usual, you’re wrong. Surprise surprise. I said no such thing. I said “No one will lift a finger for Lindsey”, and that’s exactly how it’s panning out. It’s the SWP and a couple of others – there’s no “campaign” to speak of.

    The only way they’re getting their “Back Lindsey” petition filled in is by putting it out at Stop The War meetings, where (I watched it) people just sign it and pass it on, cos people have faith that what looks like a petition is actually a petition, rather than an attempt by the person who runs the Stop The War Coalition to use it for party political ends.

    Looking at the tube, given that we’re in the middle of a serious dispute, this is perfect terrirtory for the SWP to organise it’s left list. But not a single activist in the RMT is helping them.

    Indeed, they produced a leaflet for tube workers – and the only person giving it out was the full time SWP organiser for central London.

    When I was in the SWP, I had loads of tube workers involved with the Respect campaign. Thanks to the SWP’s actions, no one will get involved now.

    “But yet there was no public material on your website 6 weeks prior to election, nor even had you chosen all your candidates yet. Well, that was a bit off.”

    Some of us aren’t obsessed with the internet. I love this “OMG YOU HAVEN’T GOT STUFF ON YOUR WEBSITE” – yeah, but we’d already produced 100,000 leaflets and given most of them out. The website will come when we launch the campaign. The wrecking operation by the SWP has meant we’ve been 3 months behind in everything – I’m proud of what we’ve achieved off the back of the SWP’s attempts to stop us.

    Shouldn’t you be concetrating your fire on the “Lindsey4London”, which has had a mere 2 stories in 2 weeks and only has 3 leaflets in its “campaign materials” section, despite the SWP having claimed to produce a different leaflet per week for several weeks (and the main SWP/Respect site having loads more campaign leaflets on it)? There is a point in not launching an election website til the campaign proper launches. Ditto this nonsense of having a “womens’ week” and a “stop the war week” – if you’re gonna trumpet stuff on your website, you should probably actually do it.

    Still, criticism of your own side has been a feature that’s been singularly lacking among you people for months now.

    “Then it sorta disappeared to halfway down your news page. “

    Let’s not forget that you lied about it on two blogs, Canadien – you have zero credibility in talking about us (you claim it was a “mistake”, but it was one that was easy enough to avoid by someone concerned with the truth).

    You also had a political explanation from me about the benefits of what we’d been doing in trying to draw together a broad list and how much time it was taking. But you, as with all the SWP’s supporters, merely ignore the politics of this and stick to really rather pathetic lies. There was room for discussion about our efforts to get a broad list together. Guess whether you took any opportunity to use it.

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  51. I had forgotten all about Red/Canadian’s pomposity. Offering tactical advice on specific issues in Birmingham and East London from the vantage point of a computer screen three and a half thousands miles away in Toronto. Now that takes a particular form of arrogance. Unfortunately the new name does change the fact the fact he still talks nonsense. Birmingham Trades Council were not on strike; Salma’s speech to it was very warmly received, my criticism was that it should have been followed up on, she was proposing very practical forms of solidarity to engage people many of whom were not involved in unions or workplaces; she did offer her support to the council unions and indeed got the best response at the last union rally from their members; and Respect distributed 20,000 newsletters through every home in Springfield and Sparkbrook wards which urged support for the council workers. Before you open your gob in future, familarise yourself with some facts. Better you apply yourselves to events in Canada than offer tactical advise on issues in other countries you know nothing about.

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  52. “Let’s not forget that you lied about it on two blogs, Canadien – you have zero credibility in talking about us (you claim it was a “mistake”, but it was one that was easy enough to avoid by someone concerned with the truth).”

    The trouble with you tonyc is your obsessive dishonesty. I corrected myself immediately on the one blog and didn’t need to on the other as you’d already managed to denounce me for heresy on the other. But the point stands that you’ve buried this project of yours on the news page and for something that was so highly profiled on SUN, here and on RR, it effectively disappeared without comment. And if there were “benefits” from launching a media campaign for something that you were singularly unable to deliver on, those are nowhere to be seen in any discussions because it disappeared down the memory hole. Instead you and Andy Newman wave your hands in the air to distract people with attacks on the SWP. As usual, you project upon others what are really your own political traits.
    Lastly, you will remember that all I said was that you ought to be more circumspect about attacking the SWP’s Left List as a failure before the fact when your own “Broad Left” list never materialized. I even said that there was no crime in trying something that didn’t work but it ought to make you a little more modest in mocking the efforts of others.
    But you are too much the mad attack dog to do anything but bark and froth at the mouth.

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  53. “I had forgotten all about Red/Canadian’s pomposity.” Now there’s one for the pot calling the kettle record books.

    In any case, when you post on here and say Salma told them to do such-and-such and they lacked the wit & imagination to do it, well, it looks like top-down instruction handing, because why the hell should they do it, just because she told them to? So, you can shut your gob or expect people to react to the pomposity of your post in the way it deserves. As for offering tactical advice: well, dumbass, if you don’t want people to comment on your brilliant tactical ideas, don’t post them on an internet site dedicated to commenting on, amongst other things, tactics.

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  54. This conversation is taking an abusive turn that I don’t like and which is alien to my politcal tradition. Stop using words like “dishonest”, “pompous”, “dumbass” or I’ll start deleting until tempers are calmer.

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  55. Ger may be right in complaining about the slowness of Birmingham TUC response to work together in inner city areas to build trade union organisation.

    However for Respect Renewal to have an adequate strategy on trade unions it should not ignore existing trade union formations. Two weeks ago 4,000 council workers attended 9 mass meetings in two Wards were RR are standing, RR was invisible. I think the criticism of just concentrating on “community” politics is valid.

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  56. The criticisms of the community strategy are valid because when tonyc criticises SW for leafleting RMT workers I have to wonder what direction Renewal is heading in.

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  57. Ger, you claim that redbedhead should refrain from commenting on Birmingham. Yet none of us live in Tibet and that hasn’t stopped a long discussion about it.

    We’re discussing political strategy here and as Renewal are concentrating its efforts on pitching community unionism to the BTC rather than organising among rank and file workers at 9 mass meetings then that is clearly not giving traditional forms of organising parity.

    Perhaps someone in Renewal will explain the strategy of community unionism and why it is important enough to pitch as the strategy that the Birmingham Trades Council should adopt over rank and file methods of organising.

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  58. Done a bit of interesting research into Social Movement Unionism (community unionism.) From the information I have gathered the ideologues of this strategy have rejected what they claim to be the classical Marxist analysis of organised labour because they believe it is too economic-determinist and class-reductionist.

    Social Movement Unionism is particularly popular among exponents of the Eurocom tradition who believe that the working class is not longer the agent of change and must necessarily form a part of a wider movement. In fact, they believe that rank and file organisation should be subjugated to a broad based cross-class alliance.
    A number of exponents of SMU criticise the traditional labour movement for what they claim to be it’s failure to address the oppression of women, gays and ethnic minorities and argue that only those groups can take the lead in fighting their own oppression. Essentially they reject a class analysis of these oppressions and believe that organised labour actually obstructs oppressed groups from liberating themselves.

    Community unionism has taken a number of different forms internationally and, in some cases, has been successful in challenging issues such as low pay and has helped organise ununionised labour.

    While I think that it’s important for the community to be involved in supporting workers (the Miners strike is a good example of this) my critique of SMU is that it’s underlying ideology is not to merely compliment rank and file organisation but to ultimately replace it because the leaders of this movement believe that workers are no longer the agent of change and class politics are redundant in the present social conditions.

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  59. when tonyc criticises SW for leafleting RMT workers

    When Tony does this, let us know. Quoting your opponents is easy, it’s good manners and it keeps you honest.

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  60. And Digger may well be right about the need for Birmingham Respect to recalibrate its work with some TU’s in the city. The traditional point of contact with Unison and BTUC was via the SWP. That relationship is now broken. New ones need to be established. That will take time. In the past SWP Unison members would have informed us of some union meetings. This time they did not. We did not ‘ignore’ the TU meetings. We simply did not know anything about them. Nothing more to it than that.

    Digger, as an active trade unionist in the city, and Salma as an active councilor, have different pressures to respond to, but neither would question each other’s sincerity. Nor does Digger disagree with my account of the BTUC meeting nor my criticism of it. This was a passing comment, more to convey a flavour of the work we are engaged in and to illustrate a commitment to TU struggle, not to disparage it, and it was all in relation to Alan’s article (remember that?). In response, it receives the most ludicrous commentary and fantasy from Ray and Canadian, neither of whom were at the meeting, but who seem desperate to invent out of it a counter positioning of TU versus community strategies on mine and Salma’s part. If SWP members who are on the ground and at the meeting do not allege this, it seems ridiculous that you two should try.

    After a promising start this tread has gone off on a tangent pretty much irrelevant to Alan’s article. It would make much more interesting reading if it returned to the original topic. I have just spent seven hours out canvassing in Sparkbrook, a poor working class ward in inner city Birmingham, where Respect has two councilors. The response we received is very positive, and although there is a long way to go before May 1, the signs are encouraging for victory. As a snap shot of class-consciousness however it reaffirmed to me two things. One, we can’t run too far ahead of where people are at. Except in the most fragmented form I don’t see much that could be construed as ‘socialist’ or ‘anti-capitalist’. Instead, I see, at best, old Labour sentiment, combined with opposition to war and anger at racism. Two, the challenge for Respect is to be more rounded and ideologically coherent in presenting our political alternative to the mainstream parties if we are to create our own left bloc. Alan suggests that this entails going beyond ‘anti-racism, anti-war and anti-neoliberalism’. What I understand of his position, and the notion of a ‘broad anti-capitalist party’, leaves me unconvinced that he has the right answer. But it is undeniably a pertinent question for us to be grappling with right now.

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  61. Seems like my posts are either being blocked or vetted. Shame about that because I thought we could at least have a balanced discussion.

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  62. “This was a passing comment, more to convey a flavour of the work we are engaged in and to illustrate a commitment to TU struggle, not to disparage it, and it was all in relation to Alan’s article (remember that?). In response, it receives the most ludicrous commentary and fantasy from Ray and Canadian…”
    Then you shouldn’t describe those at the meeting as having “neither the wit nor imagination” to implement Salma’s proposals for how the unions should interface with the community. It was from your characterization that the exchange began. A shame, really, because there was the basis for an interesting discussion about the role of a “left bloc” councillor in the context of Alan’s article.

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  63. Ray – for some reason that I don’t understand today your comments are getting caught in the spam filter along with the links to interesting sounding videos and viagra adverts.

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  64. I knew I shouldn’t have started that pharmapornsingles business on the side. Lol

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  65. “But the point stands that you’ve buried this project of yours on the news page and for something that was so highly profiled on SUN, here and on RR, it effectively disappeared without comment.”

    And you wonder why people like me view you with such disdain.

    As with the SWP’s Respect site, the Respect site moves by date. If other stuff gets posted, older stuff moves down. It happens automatically.

    Only in the world of someone completely unaware of how websites work, and in the world of someone paranoid enough to look for dishonesty everywhere, can this be taken to have political meaning.

    This is why I don’t believe you’re an honest operator anymore, Canadien – you started off from a position of assuming dishonesty and instead of asking anyone why the story had dropped down, you told people on two blogs that we had removed it altogether.

    You were wrong, and despite being told you were wrong and having the courtesy of a political explanation from me, you still impute a false motive. Sadly, you don’t seem to be politically equipped to understand that, y’know, we just put new stuff on the website and the older stuff moves down.

    It’s only a big deal to those paranoid enough to be interested in kremlinology.

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  66. Redbedhead/Canadian’s posts are those of a troll, designed to disrupt and distort discussion. The only person to blame for your invention about Salma ‘telling’ TU’s how to conduct the battle for single status, or the fantasy about TU versus community strategies, is yourself.

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  67. It’s all very well resorting to a character assasination of redbedhead, Ger and tonyc, to avoid a legitimate political discussion about the strategy of organising workers but I thought you wanted to get back on topic which is, “Respect Renewel and Agencies for Social Change.”
    A discussion about Social Movement Unionism is very pertinant to this topic and because you brought it up, Ger, in reference to Yaqoobs strategy for the BTC then expect to have a debate about it.

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  68. “Only in the world of someone completely unaware of how websites work, and in the world of someone paranoid enough to look for dishonesty everywhere, can this be taken to have political meaning.”

    Dude, you are the craziest mo’fo’ I’ve come across in a while. You seem unable to stop frothing for even the moment required to respond to what is actually written. My point was that RR people like yourself have double-standards. You poke fun at Respect for the Left List and yet you are completely unself-critical that your attempt to creat a “broad left” bloc went nowhere. As I’ve now said multiple times, if you’d care to read it, there’s no crime in this but when you thumb your nose at other people’s efforts and then your own widely trumpeted initiative ends up buried on your news page without any comment on its failure – while still mocking others – you look like a hypocrite. Is that clear? Shall I put it another way: apply the same measures to yourself as you put – with much venom and belligerence – upon everybody else.

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  69. Ger – (Sentence deleted – Liam) you must be a lot of fun to hang out with. (Sentence deleted – Liam. See comments policy) perhaps you would care to re-read what you wrote:

    “To that end Salma Yaqoob recently pitched to Birmingham Trades Council a ‘community unionism’ strategy (drawing on TELCO’s best practice in East London) to help build solidarity over the council workers Single Status battle. True to form, they had neither the wit nor imagination to be bothered to take up on it, but after the elections, we will.”

    Just to repeat: “true to form, they had neither the wit nor imagination to be bothered to take [her] up on it…”

    In other words, do what we tell you is the way to go or you lack the wit and imagination to be bothered. ie. it is top down. Or, perhaps, there is another Ger on here writing these words?

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  70. ALL further comments, from whichever side of the argument, in this discussion which are directed at the individual making them rather than the ideas they contain will be deleted. It takes to much time to chop out the rude bits.

    To be frank those of us who have never been in the SWP are under the impression that it’s something of a house style. Well you can leave it at my front door.

    Ray your last comment was also in the spam filter. Don’t ask me why.

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  71. Liam – fair enough to keeping things civil. But, no offense, you ought to try to be a tad more impartial – if you note that things were pretty civil and above-board until the arrival of tonyc & Ger.

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  72. I was going to be impartial and chop bits from Ger’s and Tony’s too but got fed up and chose to wave the stick instead. It’s quicker and more effective

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  73. “‘true to form, they had neither the wit nor imagination to be bothered to take [her] up on it…” In other words, do what we tell you is the way to go or you lack the wit and imagination to be bothered. ie. it is top down.”

    No. In other words, shock horror, TU bodies can be conservative. What an outrageous allegation to make. All the other stuff about ‘telling’, ‘Yaqoob’s top-down imposition of community unionism’ and, my own personal favourite, our mission to create a ‘popular front comprised of a majority of religious groups’, are complete inventions of yourself and Ray.

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  74. Ger – I have never used the term popular front. I don’t think it’s accurate or useful. Nor are straw arguments. But, as to top down, I stand by the characterization based upon your contribution and in the context of the discussion, which is about Thornett’s argument as to how to build a broad left party. Now, if you happen to believe that there needs to be more interface between the “community” and the unions as a key component of building a broad left electoral front, a discussion how that is to take place would be useful, since, as I said above, Thornett’s article is very short on specifics beyond the debate about types of publications.
    But saying that a councillor went and told a trade union central that they ought to interface with the community according to a particular model isn’t very helpful and indicates a top-down approach. If Salma is coming in from the outside, ie. if you don’t have local union roots (and I don’t know whether you do) then I don’t believe that it is conservative for a trade union body to not jump at her suggestion. Why should they? What examples can you show that prove her model is a good one? Credibility is more than just a good record or good ideas – it is about organic, organizational connections. Otherwise, yes, it is the method of diktat.

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  75. Redbedhead: You were not even at the meeting yet you continue with a interuptutation of events completely at variance with what actually happened. There are SWP members on this site who were there but none will post in support of your claims because they know them to be untrue.

    Salma did not ‘tell’ the trades union members anything about how to conduct the Single Status strike or try impose anything. (This is a ludicrous suggestion. Anybody who knows anything about BTUC knows that any attempt to behave in this way would get very short shrift). She offered support as a local councilor and made some suggestions about building solidarity in her ward. While she was invited on to platforms at TU rallies, her specific suggestions were not taken up. Maybe conservatism, maybe indifference, maybe pressures of time, I suspect probably a bit of all three, prevented any follow through. Certainly there was no hostility. The offer remains regardless, and no doubt will be revisited.

    Andy’s site has been disrupted by SWP trolling which consists mainly of a very tedious disputing of the facts. This is starting to feel very much like the more of the same.

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  76. Ger that’s a much clearer explanation of what happened. When you accused the BTUC of not having “the wit nor imagination” to accept Yaqoobs community unionism strategy expect be misunderstood.

    Perhaps if you phrased your comments less pejoritively and more fraternally then you wouldn’t be misunderstood so frequently. The tedious disputing of facts often uncovers misinformation on SUN. This wouldn’t have to happen if the facts were consistantly correct. Although, I’m surprised that anyone in the SWP still bothers with SUN.

    Anyway…back to the topic in question.

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  77. Thank you, Ray. I won’t repeat, except to say I agree.

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