Here is a breaking story. More to follow in the fullness of time. Siân Berry’s chances of victory in London’s mayoral elections were given a major boost by the decision of the International Socialist Group’s conference to vote for her at the weekend. Someone who was there commented: “it was pretty clear that both Lindsey…
Here is a breaking story. More to follow in the fullness of time.
Siân Berry’s chances of victory in London’s mayoral elections were given a major boost by the decision of the International Socialist Group’s conference to vote for her at the weekend.
Someone who was there commented: “it was pretty clear that both Lindsey and Siân are qualified left candidates and either would be a good choice. The key thing is that we want to vote Livingstone second.”
Woop! You know it makes sense.
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Comment deleted. See policy. There are lots of other sites for abusive tirades. If you want to reword the same themes more politically feel free. Liam
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The SWP are simply not pariahs on the left. We all make mistakes, and SWP’s leaders have certainly lost their party friends, influence and members over the last year. However, the reality is that the SWP remain an essential component of the left and a vital element of many of the most significant campaigns, including the SWTC and DCH. While man people worry about the SWP’s sectarianism, they also reply on the party – and especially on ‘Socialist Worker’ – for solidarity and co-ordination.
Both German and Berry are socialists who are using their campaigns to press forward similar issues: social housing, public transport and a increase in the minimum wage. Their organisations co-operate in the building the anti-war movement, and both are calling for a second-preference to Livingstone.
The main issue for socialists in London’s mayoral election is stopping Boris while putting pressure on Ken. That means moving for a credible left candidate first, and then giving a second vote to Livingstone. Berry, almost certainly, is a more credible candidate: she will be supported by more trade unionists, more socialists and more campaigners than will German. However, backing her is not a endorsement of the Green Party (which is one of the most left wing) nor a call to ostracize the Left List. I, for one, hope that both these ecosocialist candidates do well in the elections, and regret that Lindsey’s campaign is seen by many of the left as a sectarian party-building adventure.
(Can anyone explain J gree’s comment above about the Fourth International supporting the SWP? Surely the ISG is the FI in Britain.)
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To J Grees:
1) There is a concept called irony
2) The vote was between Berry and German and came out for the former – exactly the opposite of what your post suggests. Read Liam’s headline and article!
3) The SWP remain a very significant revolutionary organisation and many of their members play an important positive role in the class struggle. The process they play in the formation of a broad class struggle party to the left of labour is another matter.
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sorry: “role they play”
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The SWP is a wholly undemocratic wrecking party and anyone on the Left who deludes themselves otherwise is destined to be taken in again and again.What’s more they need a brain cell check.
To say that the SWP like all parties makes ‘mistakes’ is pure stupidity and indicates that the poster has little or no grasp of the way the SWP operates and certainly no understanding of how it worked to try to destroy in the Respect bringing about a wholly destructive split as it indeed had helped bring about the wholesale destruction of the Socialist Aliance and ably asisted in the hugely damaging split and implosion within the Scottish Socialist parties by supporting dick head Sheridan.
The SWP a revolutionairy socialist party? Gives a break and grow up.How desperate are some people to give the SWP any credibility.The party are universally hated and deservedly so.Use your brain!
To quote Liam’s article which actually tells us very little at all in terms of what this pathetic endorsement of Sian Berry actually means and the fact that the SWP’s Lindsey German was viewed favourably.:
“Siân Berry’s chances of victory in London’s mayoral elections were given a major boost by the decision of the International Socialist Group’s conference to vote for her at the weekend.
Someone who was there commented: “it was pretty clear that both Lindsey and Siân are qualified left candidates and either would be a good choice. The key thing is that we want to vote Livingstone second.”
At present ,the British left (whatever that is) is at sixes and sevens and consists of pure mush.Desperate or what! SADLY Socialist Resistence decides to choke on it’s own vomit.
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Sian Berry may be nice. But voting for her is ridiculous. How will this rally the forces of the left?
The Greens are not a working class party, their record in government is no better than Labour’s (not that that matters as there’s no chance they’ll win of course).
This is where desperately seeking Sian (or more accurately anyone vaguely more left than Labour) gets you.
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are jgree’s pr slimeball per chance really David Troube off of Harry’s Place? They sound rather similar.
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Bill “The Greens are not a working class party”
Well, in my experience the composition of the Green Party membership is more working class than that of the organised left, where it is weaker is not having a conscious orientation on the organisations of the working class – the trade unions. That said I think that’s being addressed and Sain is the only top four Mayoral candidate not to condemn the RMT strike.
MA “Sian Berry isn’t a socialist but each to their own.”
Well she is. But she is not part of any Leninist tradition. I don’t think you should confuse the absence of outdated jargon or fossilised Marxist formulations to be a marker that she is not on the left.
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In my experience of the Green Party membership it is more middle class than the Labour Party and the left and what’s more doesn’t have an orientation to the working class or trade unions.
I know a fair few lefties who despairing of the left have joined the Greens on lesser evil grounds. Fair dos, I can perfectly understand why, but supporting the Green Party isn’t a strategy for re-building the left.
I have no idea whether Sian is a socialist. I’m quite prepared to believe she is. I’ve seen her a couple of times on TV and she comes across very well. But it isn’t a personal thing, its whether voting for the GP will rally left forces in a fight against capitalism and it won’t.
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The Green representative on the GLA not so long ago voted to support Sir Ian Blair when even the Tories did not – hardly a left position.
The point is, you can be on the left to be in the Greens, but it’s not any major requirement. And they are certainly not a socialist party.
And I’m not sure what proof there is that Sian is a socialist? She has certainly not described herself as such.
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with the mass ranks of the Fourth International behind her Ms. Berry is destined for success, and with her victory goes the full implementation of glorious Transitional Programme!
victory is close, comrades, 70 years on
the birthday of “The Death Agony of Capitalism and the Tasks of the Fourth International.” is only two months away
Ms. Berry’s striking victory will galvanise the masses in a frenzy of recycling and finally acknowledge the historical leadership role played by the Fourth International, world revolution is within our grasp
then again maybe not 🙂
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This has to be the best pre April fool joke anyone proclaiming themselves a Trotskyist has ever pulled?
Because if not is really a very sad piece of tailism.
Even good old Pablo aligned himself with Stalinism!
I have followed the eco-socialist turn so I guess it is, sadly, really NOT a joke!
Mikey
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BUT seriously folks…
…I am interested in how socialists, even eco-ones, can justify supporting a Green in this election? Is it really so difficult to vote Livingstone.
I accept some of Liam’s stuff was tongue in cheek, ie hailing the ISG’s support “as a major boost… for her at the weekend.”
Neverthless, how do you justify this?
Is the ISG going to leave RR and enter the Greens as their German section did in the 1980’s? David Packer opposed that turn back then!
Mikey
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“The Green representative on the GLA not so long ago voted to support Sir Ian Blair when even the Tories did not – hardly a left position.” MA
That’s right Jenny Jones voted against sacking Ian Blair – she was quite wrong. Darren Johnson the other Green AM voted to sack him and well prior to the vote Sian Berry put out a press release utterly condemning him and calling on him to go.
MC “Is it really so difficult to vote Livingstone.” They are voting Livingstone – as second pref, which is just as valuable as first pref for livingstone with the advantage of being able to say you want something better than that
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this is so pathetic.. a green candidate is preferable to a revolutioanry socialist who is convenor of stop the war coalition. The ISG have really scrapped the barrel.its anything to keep in with GG and you seem content to avoid any conflict. Jeeez all I heard about the ISG and its predeccsessors are so right.. you just jump on any bandwagon. And to a previous post.. don;t pretend that the greens are involved in the anti war movement.. thya have been conspicious by their absence. Liam… what a watershed!!
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jj
I am disappointed too that they have done this.
As someone who was a founder member in 1987 when they were in the LP, and still follows that analysis, there is no logic in their position of support for Galloway and respect, then support for RR, and now the Greens!
They are a periphery searching for a centre!
Mikey
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Now, I do not agree with Alan Woods and Ted Grant on a great deal but I think that the following is pretty on the ball from their website:
“First we had the Socialist Alliance, which was supposed to unite all the Left in an irresistible electoral challenge to Labour. What happened to this glorious example of Left Unity? Having ignominiously failed to win in election after election, it split into pieces, with the usual bout of bitter recriminations. As Ted Grant used to say about the sects: “unlucky at fusions and lucky at splits!”
Once the SA had been hastily buried, a new irresistible Left force appeared on the horizon: Respect. With Gorgeous George at its head and the SWP pulling the strings from behind the scenes, this surely was a winner! But no, it all ended in tears. Now there are two Respects, each one showing very little respect for the other. Who said you cannot have too much of a good thing?
Then there was the SSP (remember them?). North of the Border, they were going to break the mould of Scottish Politics. The sects internationally got very excited about this entirely new and unique phenomenon, which unfortunately soon self destructed, splitting into two hostile wings and with the former SSP leader facing a prison sentence.
Nobody takes these people seriously any more – if they ever did. The sects in Britain and internationally have been exposed as utterly bankrupt. The working class ignores them and therefore they have nothing left but to spend all their time attacking each other and, of course, the Labour Party.
They are organically incapable of understanding the fact that the working class, having historically created mass political and trade union organizations, will not easily abandon these organizations. Ted Grant explained the historical law that when the workers begin to move, they must express themselves through the existing mass organizations of the class.
In Britain it is true that many workers are disgusted with the Blair-Brown leadership. But they see no alternative. If they wish to register their discontent at election time, they just stay at home. They do not look to the fifty-seven varieties of ultra-left sects.
When the class begins to move – and there are indications that this is already beginning – it will express itself as it has always done in the past: first through the trade unions, no matter how bureaucratic and right wing the leaders are. But in Britain the trade unions are organically linked to the Labour Party. Therefore, any movement of the class must sooner or later find an expression within the Labour Party.
Genuine Marxists do not preach to the working class from the sidelines. They participate shoulder to shoulder with the workers, fighting for each and every advance, wage increase or reform that can strengthen the Labour Movement and raise the self-confidence of the class as a whole.
Genuine Marxists set out from the working class and its organizations as they are in reality, not as we would like them to be. We do not try to jump over the heads of the working class, but to advance together with the class, step by step, while always linking the day-to-day struggle for advance under capitalism to the perspective of the socialist transformation of society. Our slogan is that of Lenin: “patiently explain”.
We have long ago turned our backs on the sects and their ultra-left childishness that completely cuts them off from the real movement of the workers – now or in the future.”
I think that the sentiment in this comment is on the ball!
I am not a supporter of theirs.
Mikey
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JJ: “a green candidate is preferable to a revolutioanry socialist who is convenor of stop the war coalition. ”
True.
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Get off it Mike. What a load of cobblers. And so pompous!
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jj – did you get much out of reading “How to win friends and influence people”?
Bill – not quite the critique of 21st century social democracy one would expect from you.
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Not me, the woodites…but I have to say on this I agree with them.
I guess that makes me a wooden headed social democrat!
m
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the isg want to suck up to the green-left
i think a first vote for the greens is stupid and it wont help build the left or a new working class party
ks
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funny, when you think about the leaders of the FI, years back they seem to think that other groups would be following them, not the other way around!
The Death Agony of Tailending the Greens!
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Obviously the ISG will be advocating a vote for Respect renewal wherever possible (and these elections are also taking place outside London). I recollect Socialist Outlook (the ISGs former paper) calling for a vote for left of labour candidates in previous elections including green socialists in this formation. Sian berry is a founder of Green Left.
Would SWPers never ever vote for a green socialist candidate? Derek Wall? What will SWPers do with their second preference in the mayoral election? what will they do in areas where the left list is not standing? Would they ever vote for anyone except the Left List? Would they ever vote for a RR candidate?
Obviously Mike calvert prefers any rotten Labour Party candidate to a Green, RR or LL candidate. Yet where will SWP preferences go apart from the SWP/Left List?
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I had already decided to leave before hearing about this truly bizarre decision of the ISG. Presumably supporting the Iraq war as the German Greens did, or capitulating to Fianna Fail as the Irish Greens did, doesn’t weigh with them.
Ironically, even Galloway wouldn’t make a blunder on this scale.
How, as someone else asked here, is voting for Berry going to help build a new party to the left of Labour?
They have surpassed even the rightist opportunism of their former comrades in Socialist Action. In the end it comes down to pure sectarianism towards the SWP as well as the effective abandonment of class politics.
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George: “I recollect Socialist Outlook (the ISGs former paper) calling for a vote for left of labour candidates in previous elections including green socialists in this formation. Sian berry is a founder of Green Left.”
Sorry George but maybe I was snoozing during my membership of the ISG (possible) and paying very little attention to the magazine (very possible) but when did Socialist Outlook call for a vote for left of Labour candidates and who were the candidates?
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P “Presumably supporting the Iraq war as the German Greens did, or capitulating to Fianna Fail as the Irish Greens did, doesn’t weigh with them.”
The German Greens do not support the Iraq war. They supported the Balkans war. Still wrong but on a rather different scale.
Would it be terribly off the point to point out that the England and Wales Greens opposed the Iraq war and the Nato bombing of the balkans (and have spoken on possibly every major anti-war platform) and that they oppose the Irish coalition which is universally seen as collosally stupid?
The FI have decided to advocate a first pref for Sian Berry for London Mayor – these rather heated denunciations, which are out of all proportion to actual decision they have taken, do rather mark you out as someone who’s not particularly serious about politics
And as to how this fits into left regroupment I’m sure the FI have their own reasons but perhaps if those who want to keep trying tighter and tighter sectarian circles can do that and those who want to see themselves as part of a broader movement go that way and we’ll see who’s part of the most interesting and healthy current a few years down the line shall we?
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“Ironically, even Galloway wouldn’t make a blunder on this scale.”
You obviously weren’t around during the Euro elections where Galloway tried to negotiate a joint slate with the greens with himself as number one and jean lambert as number two in london.
Alas the spirit was willing but the exact proposal was weak and it did not happen.
A joint slate is much more full on than this particular decision – Sorry to post twice in a row – just remembered that.
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It is always a pleasure to read Mike ‘the only living UK Lambertiste’ Calvert’s opinions. Takes me back. Next up, Mike ‘the only living UK Cliffite’ Pearn.
“I wouldn’t start from here if I were you”. So very true, so very useless.
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Louise – you havent been an ISG member for about 15 years so there has been quite a few elections in the meantime. I recollect such a formulation in papers near the last election. I assume you have been advocating a vote for Labour in all seats in all these elections?
Liam’s article is brief and its worth Padraic contacting comrades at the Conference to discuss decisions. Personally I dont agree with a decision to vote for Berry at this time over German. However I dont rule out ever voting for a member of a Green party. The FI is part of a Red Green Alliance in Denmark and has had MPs in parliament on such a slate.
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“The FI have decided to advocate a first pref for Sian Berry for London Mayor -“
so what exactly would the political consequences of that decision be?
will Ms. Berry get an extra 30-50 votes, from the toiling masses of the FI? it’s a clincher!
Boris wil be put up against the wall and stoned with recycled plastic bags, once comrade Berry initiates the London Soviet 🙂
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Socialist Appeal? who? In defence of Marxism. Oh them, Alan Woods and Ted Grant (I thought he was dead ?) oh yes, stay in the neo liberal imperialist new blue Labour Party through thick and thin, while 200,000 members(and rising) leave disgusted, voting with their feet and 4 million voters say enough is enough and no more, trade unions disaffiliate or are chucked out, strikers shat on by spineless devious right wing New labour trade union leadership bureaucracy again and again and you want us all to keep the faith. Meanwhile decades old anti trade union legislation continues unchallenged and unabated
The Socialist appeal article lacks any real serious analysis of the rest of the left, whether about the development and demise of the Socialist Alliance or Respect.
It’s commentary on the Scottish Socialist party is purely insulting and doesnt even merit any response except to say that prior to the whole Sheridan saga the SSP had proved itself to be one of the most successful and positive socialist advances .To ignore this is simply unintelligent and ignoring reality.
It only further discredits and marginalises the head banger mentality of Socialist Appeal and all it’s miniscule membership, ever ‘patiently’ awaiting the ever awaited ever touted ‘turn’, to one day lead the British working class (with all male broad shoulders, beer and blue boiler suits and Alan Woods polyester jumper leading the way ) in victory to reclaim the Labour party as a Socialist party. Dream on! Never has been and never will be.PISSING IN THE….WIND!
It seem that the British left is indeed in meltdown and at each other throats, doctrinaire and dogmatic, lacking any new ideas or any real strategy for unity or class struggle. At this rate it will probably require the victory of a real Tory government in London and in Britain to bring it to it’s senses and unite.There again! 18 years of tory rule didnt do much for Left unity.
Keep taking the laxatives!
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WOW:
“Mike ‘the only living UK Lambertiste’ Calvert”…how cool!
I thought that we all vampires, or incubbi or succubi!
But one thing I can say: the lambertistes, when I was a member from 1991-1998 did a lot of things wrong but NEVER EVER called for a vote for a Green.
Modernityblog is right, this landmark decision taken by the supreme presidium of the XXth annual Congress of the Fourth International in Britain will bring those votes a rolling in.
If I was Sian and her advisers i would be preparing a space on her website for the announcement…
Mikey
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Lets put this another way before I have to go and settle the cub (that is baby, not in-cub-i).
The ISG and other groups were at one time active in the Labour Party. It is true that the party has been in government for a long time and does the bidding of big business but it always has.
Being in the Labour party is not about supporting the party in government and anyway the USFI are a bit rich criticising people in the British LP when you see the antics of their Italian section, Critica Sinistra and their relations with the Prodi government. Also Galloway is not exactly a raving revolutionary either…but hasn’t he declared support for Ken?
Being in the LP is about having an asessment of the class struggle in this country and the relationship of forces in this conjuncture as Ernest Mandel would have said.
The LP still, no matter how deformed, is the place where most workers look. The pure number of votes they accrue is one way of measuring that. Respect never got anywhere near and the ISG/SWP never would either. As was the case with Militant when they left the LP in the 1990’s.
You must see things as they truly are and not as you want them to be. The LP is an obstacle to the creation of a mass workers party in ths country and until that changes will remain so.
It should be the prioirity of the far left to be building alliances with the working class as their struggles turn through the LP which is still a bourgeois workers party. Do the ISG think the LP is no longer that?
They will never look to the secticules and have never done so in 100 years.
Mikey
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Louise, there was a pretty complex debate over Militant supporters standing against Labour: successively harder discussions. Mahmood, Fields, Nellist, Sheridan – I think they are good examples of what George is discussing.
Jim, I am not sure that “this fits into left regroupment.” I think we are all going to continue to campaign for red-green unity, and I think a step in that was is for reds and green to accept that they are both strongest whe they take a strong ecosocialist standpoint together.
modernityblog is absolutely right that this is a choice with little impact. In particular, it’s not really the “FI” that’s supporting Sian; the FI probably doesn’t know about her, but it’s the British section which is supporting her.
Mike, you and Grant have a viewpoint that is frozen in time. At least Grant has the excuse of being dead. There’s open open-valve between the working class and the unions, let alone one between the class and Labour. Even [even!] the AWL admit that. This releases you from the burden of reasoning. Bourgeois workers party as a term is an English invention. It’s a politically-bourgeois party of the workers, and always has been. Voting for it is a tactic, not a principle.
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Ooops! I mean “There’s no open-valve between the working class and the unions”
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“WOW:
“Mike ‘the only living UK Lambertiste’ Calvert”…how cool!
I thought that we all vampires, or incubbi or succubi!”
Your call, Mikey, but any paragraph which starts with ‘modernityblog is absolutely right’ is bound to add to the confusion.
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I give comrade Calvert (and others) permission to denounce me as a running-dog-hyena-neo-revisionist, for the sake of street cred.
I am told that the updated figures suggest the FI can muster 52 extra votes not 50, after the amalgamation of a new affiliate.**
Celebrations are now being conducted at Green Party headquarters 🙂
**this figure may be reduced by the time of the May election, due to splits, expulsions or deaths thru boredom.
If a week in politics is a long time then the 31 days before the election are an eternity in Fourth International political shenanigans.
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Mickey “You must see things as they truly are and not as you want them to be.”.Yes, and the Labour party is doomed and deviod of any internal democracy and the Left in the Labour party is at best a very very minor irritant and at worse serves as a fig for the leardership by helping to give credibility to the idea that Labour is indeed democratic.
You stay put while 200,000 leave and 4 million stop voting and rising and very unlikely to return.You do the maths.The New Labour party does not inspire confidence for millions of alienated and disgusted voters and workers.
A united coherent broad left party involving trade unions could provide confidence and the basis for a genuine fightback.The question is is the left or any part of it capable of helping to bring about such a viable project.What does it take?Respect renewal may be the beginning of such a process but it remains to be seen whether it is just a Galloway fan club or some thing more democratic and dynamic.
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I have to say I find much of this discussion utterly bizarre: it typifies the problems the far left has. After all, it’s only a call for a vote, by a small Btitish left group. Even if it was an incorrect decision, to come out with accusations of betrayal and abandoning the working class, is really going over the top. Actually, the ISG’s decision doesn’t signify anything very much, as Liam has indicated by the tone of his post.
Some of the posters are far too arrogant and convinced of their own correctness, basically amounting to religious fervour. This is the kind of attitude (from the SWP leadership) that destroyed Respect.
Personally, I could make quite good class-based arguments for putting any one of German, Berry or Livingstone first preference. I’m sure many other posters could do the same, especially if they undesrood that not all the old formuale from the past will apply today. This indicates two things: that deciding between two (or three) imperfect options is quite difficult, and also not all that significant.
It’s about time the left started to understand that we don’t always have to be “right” on every minor issue. Experience of the last six months (100 years, actually) indicates that we should be more tolerant of each other’s views, especially (but not only) when we are talking about minor tactical differences.
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Wow what a dangerously wise post from PhilW!
A real antidote to the denunciation politics of most of this thread. I sometimes wonder if mutual denunciation is the only thing the British left does well.
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Phil if you keep coming out with that sort of sensible reasonableness I’ll have to ban you from the site!! That’s the sort of approach that would wipe out my readership.
You are right of course. What the ISG does or does not decide changes little in the real world though I’m sure that the comrades are confident this will one day change. I’ve been bewildered by the sheer venom that has been posted on this site in the last few days. You should see some of the stuff I removed.
I was mulling over Alan Woods’ piece that Mike posted in the swimming pool this morning. It’s solid timless Trot boiler plate. Yet Alan, in real life, is very witty and personable who does not pour down anathemas on other socialists. My hunch is that the standard references to “sects”, “grouplets” etc is as much to immunise the readers from his own current against the pond life beyond. Though actually I’ve always found it a pleasure working with them.
While it is true that workers do turn to their mass organisations in times of crisis two other things happen.
The first of these is that there are big fights inside these organisations and sometimes they split.
The second is that all sorts of regroupments and realignments take place. The history of the German revlutionary movement is a good example of this. There were all sorts of permutations of social democrats, “sectarians” and “fifty-seven varieties of ultra-left sects”. Some sort of process is happening to British social democracy and the left beyond it. If this site has a purpose it is to help develop an understanding of it rather than provide a forum for abusive tantrum throwers.
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Philw: “It’s about time the left started to understand that we don’t always have to be “right” on every minor issue.”
Maybe I’ve hugely misunderstood this, but isn’t being right the whole point of marxist politics.
Obviously part of the point of scientific marxism is to look back and say “we got that wrong” look at the reasons and refine our approach for the future where mistakes are made, but to say in advance that we don’t even try to right is to make our whole politics pointless.
Surely the belief that we are right and that others are wrong is the reason that people are in different groups etc, we don’t let that be a barrier to collective action, but we do ciriticise each other when we think they are wrong.
I think Liam and PhilWs last 2 comments are in fact admissions that the ISG position on supporting the green party are in fact wrong; I wait to see the more detailed explanation of the reasoning.
Another seperate thing that strikes me is that on the Socialist Unity site huge amounts of venom are being directed at the swp for standing German, whereas there is no criticism of the greens, presumably there should be at least token criticism of the ISG for not calling for first preferences for Livingstone, if not it smacks of swp bashing for the sake of it.
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Is this thread an April Fool ?
Will it really matter whether the 4th Int’ decides one way or another, except to themselves ?
Meanwhile in the rather gloomy looking real world where Boris is looking well placed to beat a really worn and lacklustre KL, what can we do to make a real difference?
Campaign as hard as we can for a 1st or 2nd pref for KL and the Respect (GG) list, in the slim hope that GG gets in ?
Campaign also for UAF / Searchlight to get the turnout up as high as poss and warn about the danger of the BNP getting in.
The ‘Left List’ is a complication which could well upset the ‘left’ turnout through acting as much as a turnoff. Nevetheless they are running an energetic campaign which must count for something.
(Isn’t a list something a ship has when it’s holed below the waterline ? ).
All in all not a bright picture, has anyone got any good news ?
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ah
an april fool
and a lambertist vampire bloodsucker to boot…
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Martin – “isn’t being right the whole point of marxist politics?”
No. For all we know there is a hermit up some Scottish mountainside with a clearer understanding of the state of the world than all of us put together. The trouble is he’s not engaging with anyone or anything. While it’s right that one should look back and say “we were wrong about this point or that point six months ago” the entire British left has a lot to be humble about and anyone who claims that their current has all the right answers on every single important question is living in a fantasy land.
Is Socialist Appeal more right than me in its judgement on social democracy? I don’t think so but they may be proved right in the long run. They were certainly much sharper than everyone else in spotting the importance of the Venezuelan revolution.
Is the SWP more right than me in its approach to controlling broader organisations? I don’t think so but they can point to the size of their current as a vindication.
The list of such examples could be extended to the moon and back. Reflecting on what you get right and wrong is not just something one should do with hindsight. Constantly asserting that one’s own tendency is right about absolutely everything it’s saying to do is just dogmatic and we’ve seen in recent months how ridiculous that can make serious people look.
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George T : “The FI is part of a Red Green Alliance in Denmark and has had MPs in parliament on such a slate.”
Well, the Danish name for this party is Enhedslisten (ie The Unity List), and it’s not really an alliance between red and green parties at all. It started out as a coalition of far left groups and parties, and today it’s a relatively successful broad left-socialist party. It doesn’t compare to the Greens in Britain in any meaningful way.
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I think the comparision is really about the Enhedslisten as a political constituency. Many of the Danish trotskysist prefer to be in the social democratic organisation, and still refuse to orient to the Enhedslisten. In fact, the Enhedslisten’s base of support is rather similar to that for Respect and the Green. The same is true for Green Party campaigns in the US, which the ISO and Solidarity support. In Flanders and in France, the Trotskyists have also had joint slates.
However, these are exception and unusual Green parties. The ISG, I am sure, would not be voting for a Green party candidate who was not in the Green Left. Nor will they be changing their previous stance in the general election. The general patter, is that Green parties move right as they move closer to power. A strong vote for Sian also boosts the left in the Green party, and places a pressure on the Green party to stay on the left.
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The point is that George was comparing being part of the Enhedslisten in Denmark with voting for the Green party in the coming London elections, and the two don’t really compare. The vast majority of the “left of the left” in Denmark is in the Enhedslisten, by the way. As for the ISG, I suspect that their decision to back the Greens has got more to with sectarianism towards the SWP and the Left list than with any kind of long-term orientation on their behalf towards the Greens.
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HI, comrades
Sorry for my english
I have a question. I would like to know what is the position of SR. I would like to know whether is possible SR and ISG could merge together in only one organization
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In the last elections in Australia, at least one of the ISO (pro-british SWP groups) called for a vote for the Green Party first preference (2nd preference Labor) and refused to call for a vote for the Socialist Alliance candidates (led by the far left DSP grouping) despite the PR system. I must have missed the denunciation in Socialist Worker of this.
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Hi Jesus,
Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Resistance
and then this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Socialist_Group
It would be difficult for the ISG and SR to merge, and difficult to see what the advantage would be.
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“As for the ISG, I suspect that their decision to back the Greens has got more to with sectarianism towards the SWP and the Left list than with any kind of long-term orientation on their behalf towards the Greens.”
That about sums it up.
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Ray: don’t you think it sectarian of the SWP to stand against a left candidate who has a far better chance of election to the London Assembly than you do?
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Just do us a favour.
Never, ever use the term ‘Fourth International’ – a term that relates to a very different international, a communist one, the Trotsykist international – to refer to the bankrupt politics of your organisation.
Whilst you have no more right to call yourself the Fourth International as compared, for example, to the International Committee of the FI (aka WSWS) such voting advice puts your organisation beyond the ranks of the workers’ movement. Others above have explained why this is so.
Your headline is an abomination but what’s worse would seriously mislead new militants into suggesting a purportedly Marxist organisation would break class lines like this. I did need to check the date to ensure it wasn’t an April Fool’s joke.
No ‘Fourth International’ would ever support voting Green in the London 2008 Mayoral election.
This Trotskyist will be casting a critical vote for LIndsey German.
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Don’t be daft, SPP – the Fourth International is all about the apostolic succession, always has been. You can endorse the Pope or the ICFI Anti-pope, or you can treat both sets of pretensions as a joke (I tend to go for the latter myself, although I do think the ISG do some good work). What you can’t do is denounce them both in the name of some ideal FI that has all the correct attributes except for existence.
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Nas, don’t you think it’s sectarian always attacking the SWP?
Have you opportunistically transfered your allegience from New Livingstone to Green Berry to suit your vendetta against the SWP?
Your apolitical and uncomradely behaviour makes me doubt whether you’d know what a left candidate was if s/he bit you on the behind.
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I can’t see how calling for a first vote for Sian Berry makes much sense unless the ISG believes the Green’s programme represents a clear alternative to Livingstone.
I can’t see any evidence of that.
Besides which, with the election on a knife edge, it will be the second preference votes that decide it.
Liberal second prefs.are going 43% Johnson; 30% Livingstone, which may lose Livingstone the election.
That raises one arkward little question: where will the other 27% go?
I suspect quite a lot will be for Berry and will be discarded when she too is eliminate on round 1.
So it can be argued that the Green’s standing for Mayor may have sabotaged Livingstone’s chances.
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I thought the call by socialists for a vote for Livingstone was counter-productive for the left but I never thought I’d see the day when Trotskyists are calling for a vote for the Greens.
The left is truely in a confused state when it’s split between supporting a privatising reformist and an environmentalist while dismissing a socialist candidate who is standing in the election. A socialist candidate who, up until 6 months ago, these very same people endorsed and supported.
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The Greens haven’t sabotaged Livingstone. His neo-liberal policies have sabotaged him. Until those on the left who support Livingstone uncritically begin to politically analyse why Livingstone is doing so badly they will squander the chance of building a left alliance outside of New Labour.
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Of course Ray, both points can be true.
So can the fact that Livingstone is better than Johnson.
This is politics.
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Southpaw: “such voting advice puts your organisation beyond the ranks of the workers’ movement. ”
Seriously mate, that sounds a bit third period. The TUC gives worse advice, but it’s still part of the workers’ movement.
As for the FI, you have to make your own judgment about political continuity. The organisational continuity is quite clear. The ICFI is the continuity of two parties, the SLL and Lambert’s PCI, which refused to join the 1963 reunification. Every other organisation supporting the IC and IS reunified.
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The argument about Liberal second prefs going to the Greens and therefore being wasted is not valid. For one thing, you don’t appear to know where these 27% of second prefs will go: some might even go to German. Secondly, I suspect quite a few Green second prefs will go to German, rather than Lvingstone, so the argument could just as easily be used against German standing.
Taken to its logical conclusion, because no-one can guarantee where the second prefs will go, no-one to the left of KL should be standing. This is a negation of democracy. Although left candidates should promote a Livingstone second pref, they can’t be held responsible if that doesn’t happen in individual cases.
If Livingstone fails to win re-election, it will be due to his political failings (including failure to break with New Labour), not those of candidates to his left.
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I can’t think of any worse advice, certainly of an electoral manner, that the TUC has ever given. It obviously always say (or leaves Labour affiliated unions to say? – I’m not sure) ‘Vote Labour’.
So, no, my views are not ‘ThIrd Period’ at all i.e. I don’t think Labour are Social Fascists. I’m just astounded that the ‘Fourth International (sic – there is no FI any more) in Britain is offering advice that is to the right of the Trade Union leadership.
It’s a fundamental break for ‘Trotskyists’ (sic) to make the above decision. It’s no less fundamental (although on a smaller scale) than other breaks such as when members of the predecessor body of the ‘Fourth International’ (sic) joined the Sri Lankan government in the 60s – they were expelled for doing so.
So I look forward to confirmation, here or elsewhere, that either the Fourth International (sic) has expelled its British section from its ranks(very unlikely, given the recent history of the international body) or Trotskyists within its British section have left the organisation.
Others have said above what is so wrong with this decision but ponder on this. I went to a elections hustings at the last General Election when the Tory candidate was clearly not as rightwing as the sitting Labour MP and the Lib Dem seemed similar to the Tory.
Should a socialist have voted for the most left wing candidate, the Tory? Obviously not. Should socialists in London vote for anyone other than the socialist candidate – Lindsey German, Left List – in the forthcoming London mayoral election? Obviously not.
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Well…..I pondered……and…..? I wouldn’t vote for the Tory but what is so massively virtuous about voting for a straight-down-the-line New Labourite (or a Labourite even more right-wing than that!) ? Absolutely nothing.
This ISG member is more than happy to admit that at his last local elections he voted for the anti-war, pro-public services Green instead of the neo-liberal clone put up by NuLab. The only other choices were Tory and Lib-Dem.
Your own analysis seems confused – you seem to be saying on one hand “Vote Labour -even if another candidate is more left-wing”, but in the final paragraph you say “vote for the most left-wing candidate, not Labour”!
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it is arguable for a Left to vote Labour, spoil their ballot/abstain or vote for a socialist candidate i.e. a member of a Left group. I am voting Left List and nowhere advocate a vote for Labour.
The Greens do not fall into the latter category. They may have a leftish face, as can even the Tories now, both of course that is just relatively so, in relation to Labour.
They are a pro-capitalist party (as are Labour) but they are without the participation of workers organisations e.g. trade unions).
The manifesto of the Green mayoral candidate is a mixture of soft Leftish stuff and business friendly (support local businesses etc) things. If they get power they could go in any direction as the anti Labour coalition they are (were?) members of that runs Leeds City Council with the Tories and LIb Dems demonstrates.
Of course much the same could be said about Labour. I wouldn’t advocate a vote for Labour but some Lefts still do.
And apart from the move to the other side of the barricades by the ISG what about the gross sectarianism of that organisation to the SWP?
Dammit, you supported Lindsey German as the Respect candidate until late last year!
There’s a lot wrong with the SWP but there is just one socialist candidate (and German beat the Greens last time!). How can any red (as opposed to a Green) not support her.
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Soutpawpunch, you have really confused me now (but not as much as, i am sure, you have confused yourself)
You refer to the FIs predecessor expelling the Sri Lankans in the 1960s.
Given that the FI was formed in the 1930s, this is an odd statement to make.
You then say the FI no longer exists. Since you obviously must think that the FI was formed in the 1960s or later, can you also tell us when it stopped existing?
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The only one confused is you, Bystander
I wrote the ” ‘Fourth International’ (sic) ” expelled Sri Lankan comrades in the 60s.
The FI was founded in the 30s (nowhere do I suggest it was formed in the 60s!) and, at least those in the ISG, LCR etc argue the the “Fourth International (sic) still exists and is them!
And guess what something formed in the 30s can last to the 60s! Whether this one did, in any meaningful form , is another question
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No you didn’t- its still up there in black and white.
You wrote “members of the predecessor body of the ‘Fourth International’ (sic) joined the Sri Lankan government in the 60s – they were expelled for doing so”
Whatever this means, it doesn’t say what you are now saying it says. What was this predecessor body to the FI, to which the LSSP belonged, that was both FI and not-FI at the same time?
And I know the ISG argue the FI still exists- but you say it doesn’t, so, I ask again, since when has the Fourth International not existed?
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I didn’t realise at the time that your comment was clearly meant as maybe a Dadaist intervention – a spectacle of the absurd, maybe? Either that, or you are a madman.
I will take your latest comment as just surreal art as I’m sure you can’t just be a petty ultra-pedant.
Once more. There was a Fourth International. It was founded in 1938 (I think). It doesn’t exist anymore.
Like, at what point did the Soviet Union stop being socialist? (maybe 1927?), it is not not known when you could distinctly say the FI ceased. Different tendencies may (if they give a damn) argue about exactly when it did expire.
The “Fourth International” (notice the ‘sic’) (and others) claim they are the same organisation and that it did not die.
I don’t. I say they are a successor body – a chameleon adopting (for how long?) the name of the FI which in turn was the revolutionary successor to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd internationals i.e. the embryonic World Party of Socialist Revolution and whose historic task is to take humanity on the next stage of its development from a feudal to a capitalist to socialist society.
(And not Tito, Castro and Green etc lovers in Pabloism reloaded.)
But as this is getting well away from the point – the “Fourth International” (sic, sic, sick) supporting the Green candidate.
Forgive me if I pass by the opportunity to correct some more bad comprehension in favour of working to get the highest vote for the Left List.
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It doesn’t really matter if the FI vote Berry because those who want to vote for a left candidate will vote Left List not the Green Party. The article FI present supporting their decision is fundamentally an attack on the SWP masquarading as political analysis.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t address the real reasons for Livingstones unpopularity nor does it offer a way forward for the left.
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What is rather interesting is that a Trotskyist group is promoting a strategy that would have made the Eurocoms proud. We had to fight that culdesac for the left in the late 80’s/early 90’s. Is it really necessary to have a repeat of this or can we learn from the past and not repeat the same mistake again?
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But fortunately not many will want to vote Left or Berry, most will vote Livingstone – the only sensible choice for a socialist.
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Well that won’t help the left but it will help New Livingstone and his chums in the City. Probably not enough to undo all the damage that Livingstone has done to his own credibility but if socialists want to vote for New Labour instead of a socialist candidate then shame on them. It’s purely a sectarian manouver on their part because they know full well that they can vote for a socialist and still transfer their vote to Livingstone via second preference. There’s no excuse not to vote for German.
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This blog is genius! Kris Kristofferson 1st, surely.
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“This blog is genius! Kris Kristofferson 1st, surely.”
Sadly, if it meant undermining German them some on the left would gladly sing the praises of Kristofferson. Especially his, “A Star Is Born”, period.
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Stop being silly, German isn’t a socialist candidate.
I take it you’ve read her policies?
http://www.electrespectcoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=41
Where’s the socialism?
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It’s correct to be critical the Left List for the paucity of its policies (why don’t the SWP just argue for what they believe, supposedly communism – as they also didn’t do in the Socialist Alliance) but how does Bill J get from that to, er, Vote Labour!?
I presume that is the Permanent Revolution line. I wasn’t sure that PR was a rightward split from Workers Power (as the majority said) but that supports that conclusion.
I have seen a copy of an election special of ‘London Green News’. It’s chock full of ads from Green business – green mortgages, ‘energy saving magnets etc and for things like a Green Concierge service – initial fee £199 and then service charges. The backwards, pre-industrial feel is demonstrated by calls to live off the gird and praise for those who generate their own electricity – just for their own house!.
That last item sums them up well. Individual solutions that would be incredibly wasteful and only open to the rich verus seizing the energy companies and producing cheap energy for all and with an emphasis on not damaging the environment.
It clearly shows that the Green party, if it got power, would be the voice of these small businesses doubtless quickly to be replaced by bigger businesses who market themselves green.
So the green newspaper argues for –
“more police on the streets”
“new farmers markets”
“ethical investments generate better returns”
They can’t even honestly argue for what they believe. I presume “legislation to regulate the sale of drugs” means the legalisation (and regulation of sale) of drugs.
Sure, some of magazine reads like not quite Bennites from the early 80s. Peter Tatchell is good (if limited) on stopping the BNP but as Darren Johnson says “stunt activism … can only get you so far”
Having had to listen to police sycophant Jenny Jones up close, it’s onlya question of time before she gets her damehood and just possible the Greens establish themselves as a minor party of capitalism, as in Germany.
Why the hell do we want to help them on the way? Those who do – the ISG and Andy Newman, the proprietor of the Socialist Unity website (who said , if he lived in London, that he would give them his 1st pref) are not Lefts and beyond the workers movement.
The whole outlook of the Greens is like if the Labour Party upped sticks and moved its HQ from Westminster to Stoke Newington. Capitalism is astute enough to come in many forms. It can be in the banner headlines of the Sun or the parsed prose of the Guardian but socialists should reject these all – and vote Left List.
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it’s onlya question of time before she gets her damehood and just possible the Greens establish themselves as a minor party of capitalism, as in Germany.
Why the hell do we want to help them on the way?
If the Greens were on a rightward trajectory, do you think being a) supported or b) denounced by the Fourth International would be more use to them?
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I don’t care. That’s the point. I don’t wish to help them.
Like all capitalist parties, I want to see communist parties smash them.
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According to the stats around 30 people stumbled across this site looking for a review of last night’s Kris Kristofferson show or in search of Errol Flynn, Bill Bailey, Ella and Marilyn.
They are probably asking themselves what sort of madhouse they’ve found. And I ask myself the same question.
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Of course PR are a rightward split from Workers Power.
Have you read Workers Power?
Although oddly, they have come round to our view on elections and support Livingstone and not the Left List.
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“According to the stats around 30 people stumbled across this site looking for a review of last night’s Kris Kristofferson show or in search of Errol Flynn, Bill Bailey, Ella and Marilyn.
They are probably asking themselves what sort of madhouse they’ve found. And I ask myself the same question.”
LOL! Somehow it makes all the relentless bickering over candidates seem worthwhile.
Vote Kristofferson!
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On a more cheery note, NuLab was defeated at the NUS conference and Student Respect did well in the elections. The obituary for Student Respect by some on the left is premature methinks. Student Respect is taking a leading role in the radicalisation of students and if German does well in the London elections then this may offer the same hope for the labour movement.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14576
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billj says, “Stop being silly, German isn’t a socialist candidate.
I take it you’ve read her policies?
http://www.electrespectcoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=41
Where’s the socialism?”
And you’re the one voting New Labour. The hypocrisy is hard to swallow.
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As always, I have to agree with Jodley. Kristofferson resigned his commission in the army, turning down a professorship at West Point in order to write songs. He was leading figure in Veterans for Peace, is a long-standing ally of many struggles against US imperialism, going to revolutionary Nicaragua several times (I didn’t see the SWP supporting the Sandinists). He stands against the war in Iraq, and sings against it:
http://kriskristofferson.com/news/
I think a write-in ballot for Kris makes much more sense than arguing that voting for a pro-war party with a capitalist programme its better than supporting the socialist candidate of an anti-war ‘petty-bourgeois’ party.
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Its quite simple Ray. Bill does not claim that New Labour is socialist. The vote for New Labour is based on Labour’s historic link with the class not on its programme. You may disagree with how the Labour Party is characterised by Bill and PR but critically supporting Ken at the elections is not hypocritical. If German’s candidature represented a tangible and significant movement within the class away from Labour towards the left then we would of course support her despite her programme being a left reformist (and poor one at that – its one of the least inspiring programmes I’ve come across)) rather than a socialist one.
Also in terms of you previous posts about supporting the Greens, I have a vague recollection of the SWP supporting Nader in the US who stood on a programme heavily influenced by environmentalism
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Comparing the US to the UK isn’t doing your arguement any favours, Tina. Nader had the support of trade unionists in the US and considering there is no social democratic party over there then Nader was the best alternative. The Greens have no concrete link with the working class and don’t represent their interests.
The poor excuse that because The Left List aren’t calling for the barricades you have to vote Livingstone when you are fully aware that you can still vote socialist and give Livingstone your second vote has nothing to do with a marxist analysis and everything to do with opportunism. I doubt very much that Ken will thank you for your support because it’s possible that he’ll lose due to his neo-liberal, pro-capitalist policies.
As for Kristofferson, his role in the Blade Trilogy has more significance to this debate than the, ‘plague on both your houses’, position, Duncan.
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But if German is a socialist why doesn’t she say so? Is she embarrassed? Has she forgotten? Is it something she just likes to tell her friends down the pub?
Why should we take your word that she is a socialist when she won’t say so herself?
And then when you look at the rest of her programme its a series of reforms with no explanation of how they can be fought for and won.
In other words useless as propaganda and useless as a guide to action.
Of course if that’s how she wants to spend her time, then that’s up to her. Its just not something that socialists should support.
(Unless of course they’re embarrassed or forgetful ones.)
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I know Liam is not a member of the ISG but is he dissapointed how few of their members contribute or visit his website.
Liams own straw poll on voting preferences for London Mayor produced a miniscule 10% for Berry 1 Livingstone 2 and a whopping 55% for German 1 Livingstone 2.
I think you should run the poll again and see if the massive influence of the Fourth International endorsement could reverse the picture. Or maybe your happy to be out of sync on this issue as a substantial minority of the ISG are.
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“….around 30 people stumbled across this site looking for a review of last night’s Kris Kristofferson show or in search of Errol Flynn”
You ought to be really unprincipled and change the headline to “Fourth International backs Gwyneth Paltrow lookalike” (well, if you squint she does..)
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Whenever I check back to the comments on this post, I can never tell whether I’m going to find it all quite amusing, or deeply deeply depressing.
WTF is wrong with us that we can’t work together like adults? Or at least disagree with each other like adults? No wonder the left never gets anywhere.
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“Whenever I check back to the comments on this post, I can never tell whether I’m going to find it all quite amusing, or deeply deeply depressing.”
Exactly. But I’m happy with both.
I do think, however, that the left in Respect Renewal, the ISG in particular should account for Gorgeous’s more dubious positions. There is no point in naming them, but we know they are there.
Broad parties must at least show that they can criticise their ‘leaders’ without pulling the whole building down on top of themselves.
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I’m contributing as an ISG member and delegate to the ISG conference who voted in favcour of a critical 1st vote for Sian Berry as London Mayor.
Undoubtedly there is a case to be made for a 1st vote for Lindsey German as she stands on an ostensibly class struggle platform. However in London at least the SWP’s ‘Left List’ is heading for the political abyss. Last time Lindsey got over 50,000 votes when she stood for Mayor. I’ve no idea how many votes Lindsey will get this time round but it will be considerably less than 2004. My personal prediction is that she will be lucky to get more than 5,000 votes. In other words we are likely to be talking about a sectarian vote rather than a class vote
Sian Berry clearly also stands on a platform to the left of Ken Livingstone. Sian is a member of the Green Left and is likely to attract the support of many non sectarian left activists. A vote for Sian would therefore facilitate us reaching out to such activists. I supported a vote for Sian rather than Lindsey on that basis.
Calling for a vote for the SWP’s ‘Left List’ remains an option in areas where they have a political base. For example I would support a vote for Michael Lavalette in Preston when he is next up for re-election. However this is hardly the case in London where the SWP have succeeded in alienating just about everybody else on the left.
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You have no idea at all how many votes German will receive.
If you should prove right it will be as no credit to you, it’s just hocus pocus.
It is no more than a completely wild guess, and so completely un-Marxist, to say she will be “lucky to get more than 5000”.
No-one knows how she may do.
She may do terribly.
She may tap into the Left of Labour vote (some of which may once have voted for Livingstone – but are now disappointed by him) and do better than last time – when she beat the Green!
Who knows.
So to base your crossing of class lines on a hunch, rather than tangiable analysis just compounds your error. Will you tell me the lottery numbers for later today?
Give us our Fourth International banner back.
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wasn’t it left in a grubby old Pub in the 1970’s?
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I’d say it was more crushed under some army boots at the place where the Red Army met up with the US forces in eastern Germany shortly after the defeat of the Nazis – which could even be the same place where the history of the world for the 20th century was written in 1919ish when the KPD passed the wrong resolution at a meeting.
From a ‘Union of Socialist States’ and the ‘Expropriation of all capitalists’ to ‘Encouraging the use of compost heaps’ and ‘Teach children in school how to make make wormeries”
Is that really what those IMGers endured all those years of communal living to be left with?
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“However in London at least the SWP’s ‘Left List’ is heading for the political abyss.”
I wonder if Lenin and Trotsky based their decision on who to vote for on the number of votes a candidate might get. “I know!” Said Lenin to Trotsky, “we’ll vote petit bourgeoisie this election ‘cos they’ll get more votes than us socialists.”
It was the Greens rather than German who headed for the political abyss the last time. So if you’re judgeing the credence of the candidate by how well they’ll do in the election then vote Livingstone – at least he’s a member of a social democratic party even if it has been taken over by Tories. The libdems are quite progressive on green issues and voted against the war so why not advocate Paddick? What does it matter about the nature of the party they belong to as long as they hold a few liberal views.
Rather than use class as the basis to decide on who to vote for, the FI’s desire to appear “green” has informed their decision. The Independent should be proud of them.
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I bet if members of the FI had done votematch they’d be supporting German. I don’t see how any socialist could get any other result.
http://www.votematch.co.uk/london/
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It was also interesting to note, while completeing votematch, that Renewal supports all the changes Livingstone wants to make to increase the powers of the mayor while The Left List doesn’t support this. Renewal backs Livingstone on the following:
1. The portion of Council Tax set by the Mayor should be not be frozen or cut over the next four years.
2. The Greater London Authority should have powers over primary and secondary education in London.
3. The Mayor of London should have the power to appoint London’s Police Commissioner.
On the environment, Renewal supports more skyscrapers in London, the Greens are undecided while The Left List is against. Unlike The Left List and the Greens who disagree that the capacity of London’s airports should be increased, Renewal is undecided.
According to votematch the Greens remain undecided on the following issues:
1. Unemployment should be tackled by giving businesses more freedom.
2. The portion of Council Tax set by the Mayor should be frozen or cut over the next four years.
3. The jobs and long term regeneration that the Olympics will bring are more important than its cost.
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I just did votematch, and Sian came out higher than German. I wonder how many other Respect members come to the same conclusion?
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I got the following result on Vote Match
Mayor: 1) Ken Livingstone 2) Lindsey German 3) Sian Berry
Assembly 1) Respect 2) Labour 3) Left List 4) CP-B 5) Greens
Of course, the fact that there are 5 overlapping platforms on the left, all competing for the Assembly vote, exemplifies the chronic sectarianism of the left.
The deadweight of the Labour bureaucracy has been an important factor in creating this, but its stranglehold is reinforced by breakaway sects.
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>>Those who do – the ISG and Andy Newman, the proprietor of the Socialist Unity website (who said , if he lived in London, that he would give them his 1st pref) are not Lefts and beyond the workers movement.
Southpaw, I really invite you to consider how what you are saying sounds to other people. This form of words, saying that socialists you disagree with are now outside the workers movement, is a phrase from the Moscow and Mao-Stalinists. In many countries, these phrases are used to justify sectarian attacks and divisions that can go as far as violence.
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Chris Brooks
There has been no suggestion or threat of violence whatsoever. Whilst Stalinists and the like may have used such words, Trotskyists have also correctly said such about many who, for example, left the SWP (US) – such as Burnham and (eventually) evolved into right wing politicians.
The more recent RCP in Britain would also be a good example of those who left the workers movement.
Whilst it’s too early to speculate where the ISG may end up (and I’m not suggesting they may end up right wing), supporting the Green in London does put them outside the workers movement.
I will be watching whether the current evolution of the LCR also leads to the same consequence.
My votematch result came out 1 Livingstone with 2 German and 3 Paddick very close behind.
The application is just silly – allowing more skyscaper development (as I and Livingstone agree with) is neither Left nor Right but being opposed to Congestion Charging is correct (no to regressive taxation) so German is wrong to agree with Livingstone on this.
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Of course it doesn’t put them outside the workers movement.
What silly exaggeration.
It may be a mistake, but its not akin to voting for war credits.
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Southpawpunch – you say ‘Give us our Fourth International banner back’, but who’s the us – as you declare yourself a non aligned socialist. You want to see communist parties smash the Greens etc but you’re not a member of a communist party or group. Why are you on the outside?
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SPP reminds me of a Workers’ Playtime spoof of pro-situationist screeds – it talked about the bankruptcy of the party form & how revolutionaries could organise most effectively through free-floating ‘Affinity Groups’, and concluded “The ideal size of these ‘Affinity Groups’ is less than 2.”
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International Viewpoint have a piece on this decision up now
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1455
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Ray “It was the Greens rather than German who headed for the political abyss the last time.”
Well actually neither of them headed for the abyss – but thankfully two Greens were elected to the assembly and have been extremely effective… I think that was a good thing, and I’m hopeful that that representation will increase – which will be a boost to everyone on the left whether you want to pretend that voting green is a vote for the “petit bourgeoisie” or not – although it does appear to be less than evidence based.
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Bill – We will have to disagree. I think supporting a non workers party in such a situation (which may be different to, for example, supporting other non workers parties e.g. a nationalist movement in a colony) is a quantative break and does as I say.
Voting for war credits is one of the the most famous ‘break moments (for those who don’t know, Marxists decided that the 2nd international was dead and a 3rd international was needed when 2nd international ‘comrades’ in e.g. the SPD supported their own side at the outbreak of WWI.)
But actually it DIDN’T put social chauvinists outside the workers movement (although marked them as no revolutionaries) – or do Permanent Revolution think the SPD have been outside the workers movement for the last 90 years?
You can break from the workers movement in smaller ways – and the ISG has done so.
George T,
Good point. I can not properly (probably) call myself a Trot if I don’t follow Leninist forms of organisation i.e. join a party and argue my politics there but it may possibly be argued that these are now different times.
But then what would be the point of joining a party nearest to me – WP, PR or CPGB maybe? Clearly they are quite distant (relatively speaking) and going nowhere (no growth in 30 odd years for WP – same rate for the others). I think I am more use as a individual activist and propagandist.
Phil, forgive my insistence on calling what is by its real name. Do you have any political points to make?
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>>the SPD supported their own side at the outbreak of WWI. But actually it DIDN’T put social chauvinists outside the workers movement (although marked them as no revolutionaries)
So, SPP, just to get this right: you say that the SPD voted for World War One and stayed in the workers’ movement but the ISG is placed outside the workers’ movement simply by voting first preference for an anti-war ecosocialist in the Green party and then voting second for Labour. So what the ISG has done is, in your opinion, qualitatively worse than the betrayal of the SPD.
Quite seriously, your assessment is – as well as being mistaken – quite similar to that used by the Stalinists who refused to ally with so-called ‘social-fascists’ and ‘Trotsky-fascists’. In Pakistan, the Philippines and elsewhere this kind of approach has moved from frustrating the struggle for united action, and has spilled over into much worse.
There would be a huge advantage to your joining PR or some other otganisations. You would benefit from pooling your wisdom and insight with those of others, and you would develop a more nuanced and effective understanding of how to make politics.
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Chris,
I think nobody (except Bill J) thinks, or at least implies, the SPD etc left the workers movement when they did this (in 1914).
And likewise the PCF, various French socialist parties haven’t left the workers movement when they joined (or indeed were) bourgeois governments. They remained mass workers parties linked to trade unions (but maybe not now).
The ISG (or any other Left group) doesn’t have the luxury of a mass base or affiliation by trade unions or other mass organisations.
Left groups can go anywhere – take the JVP in Sri Lanka – from attempted communist revolution in 1971 to conducting vicious anti-Tamil programs just a few years later.
This is an extreme example but there are many examples of former Left currents that have made their peace with capitalism generally (finally ) as part of open capitalist parties e.g. former far left tendencies that ended up in the German Greens. They may still have a left flavour to them but they have left the workers movement. .
So what the ISG have done that “is qualitatively worse than the betrayal of the SPD” is based on what they are – a Left group.
I’m not sure whether Labour is still part of the workers movement (in the traditional Leninist ‘bourgeois workers party’ sense) but if they are, and somehow supported the Green (in a parallel world) that wouldn’t be the break it is for the ISG.
If you accept the traditional Trot view of Labour (as I said, I’m not sure I still do) then even if they start executing strikers, they would remain a workers party, they can say ‘Vote Green’. A Left group can’t say this and still remain in the workers movement.
The politics of Billy Bragg and Vanessa Redgrave were rank enough but when they did say vote LibDem it was at that point they excluded themselves from the workers movement
My approach has nothing in common with Third Period ‘communism’. I don’t think Labour are social fascists or the ISG Trotskyist Fascists as 30s CPGB may have said. There is nothing based on what I said in this paragraph by you that has any basis in what I said so is impossible to correct.
You are certainly correct that individuals improve by dialogue – I’m sure we can all learn things by these debates.
We could all do better, but thanks, I think I have been an effective (and nuanced) union rep, PR person for many left campaigns and all round activist for 25 years despite not being a member of a group of 10? 20? people going nowhere. However when/if things take off, I will join the best.
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I’m not sure why anyone should be surprised at the latest antics of the ISG. Their declaration of themselves as an”eco-socialist party” a couple of years ago signalled their latest adaption to the Greens. It is at one with a history of opportunism from the Fourth International post WW2 – in the 1960s they donned their fatigues and all became Castroite guerrillaists, further back in the late 1940s they became Titoists.
Obviously Sian Berry is the latest “blunt instrument” that can replace the revolutionary party – her beaming picture now adorns the International Viewpoint site. But why do they think any of the Greems will take them seriously? It is such an obvious “tactic” donning the green garb, pretending to become environmentalists, to recruit a few members. It is the sort of thing that got the SWP such a bad name in its “special united fronts”.
How about a bit of political honesty on the left? If you are a revolutionary socialist, why all this ducking and diving behind the Greens, behind a “left list”, behind Respect. Don’t the working class voters deserve a bit of respect?
Whatever you think about working in and with the LP at least you can openly say you are a revolutionary, even when knocking on doors for pink Ken.
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Southpawpunch – per your logic what would it take for the ISG to be back in the workers movement? If there is a byelection after May and the ISG call for a Respect Renewal vote over a Green, are we back in the workers movement?
Also how will the workers I represent every week as a Tu rep now react to me after this decision. Will they say ‘you’re not part of the workers movement, you’re qualitatively worse than the German SPD that voted war credits and you’re on the road of the Sri lankan JVP!. I’m not having you representing me’.
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I just don’t see the political point from the ISG’s political standpoint. Its just wierd.
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Stuart – surely the obvious way to try and recruit a few Green Party members would be do do a smash and grab entry job in that party. I think you are rather missing the point about the development of the ecosocialist project.
Our common assumption, one that is reflected in some of the very good articles in your own journal, is that we are only decades away from a major catastrophic climate change created by human activity. Our assertion is that the capitalist model of production and consumption are the cause of this and that any solution which does not discriminate against the world’s poor is incompatible with capitalism. In developing this thinking the ISG and its fellow travellers have started working with people from other political backgrounds some of whom share your opinion of Respect. This has not been a problem because as this election shows there is a realignment gradually taking shape on the left of British politics and as materialists we should assume that the environment in which we live might affect it.
As for the class struggle party theme we can take that up another day.
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Phil, forgive my insistence on calling what is by its real name. Do you have any political points to make?
I’m on your side, mate. Just trying to point out you’re looking a bit silly.
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Apologies if this comes across as rude or dismissive in any way but as a former member (a long long time ago) of the ISG I cant help but wonder how long before they give up the ghost completely, surely whats left has little resemblance to the organisation back in 87 politically or organisationally from what I can see from the outside.
That aside (and lets face it sadly its unlikely that many people will even read of the ISG decision Sian’s policies as espoused on the GN site do not appear to be very detailed nor exceptionally radical (even in the Green sense) although they are vague enough to be labelled left and its certainly difficult to find anything to particularly disagree with in them (and I was certainly tempted to vote for them – perhaps after a decades absence I should consider re-joining the ISG, bet theres few factions to choose from these days tho).
However isnt the danger in the London election the potential election of Johnson and surely in the context of possibly every first preference vote for Livingstone counting keeping the said individual out should be the priority?
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Liam redux 
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