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Respect's first assessment on the elections

The local and London elections have been bad for the left and for progressive voters everywhere. The backlash against the Brown government, which many now feel has betrayed them on the economic andsocial fundamentals, has pushed Labour’s share of the vote below the Liberal Democrats nationally. In London, Johnson is now mayor, although the final…

Liam
2–3 minutes

The local and London elections have been bad for the left and for progressive voters everywhere. The backlash against the Brown government, which many now feel has betrayed them on the economic and
social fundamentals, has pushed Labour’s share of the vote below the Liberal Democrats nationally. In London, Johnson is now mayor, although the final margin after second preferences was lower than many predicted. Much worse, the BNP got a first seat on the Assembly. The Liberal Democrats also had a bad day in London, with their vote down substantially and it was a pretty mixed picture for them elsewhere.

For parties to the left of Labour, results were also generally poor with some notable exceptions, particularly but not only in Birmingham. In London the best results were posted by Respect with almost 60,000 list votes, 2.43%, but this was still below the deposit saving level and less than half what was needed to get a seat on the Assembly. The combined left vote, excluding the Greens, was only 3.61% on the list.

On the positive side for Respect, winning another seat on Birmingham council was a sharp ray of light. This now gives us all three councillors in Sparkbrook. Another good result was both the constituency and list votes in East London, which clearly show we have built on our vote after a long period of internal difficulties. The constituency vote for Hanif Abdulmuhit increased by almost 7,000 from the 2004 result. The local roots Respect has established in East London checked the forward march of the BNP. Without Respect East London could have begun to look like the 1970s with the BNP pushing into third place. Instead, Respect is one of the two major parties along with Labour in parts of Tower Hamlets and Newham, we beat the BNP on the list vote and pushed the Liberal Democrats into fifth place.

There was clearly a massive turnout in some parts of the Tory suburbs, a vote with some pretty nasty racist overtones following a campaign of vilification against Livingstone and his support for ethnic minority communities in general and the Muslim community in particular.

There is little for the left to be celebrating after these results. Many Labour voters will be rightly gutted (sic) at what has happened. There will be many battles ahead against this big shift to the right. What we need to be doing now is regrouping our forces with a determination that the resistance starts here and starts now. George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Respect intend to be at the heart of that resistance pursuing the approach of building a plural left opposition. We also want to give a big thank you to all the candidates and supporters who worked so hard during an election campaign which has been lots of fun.

Full list of Respect election results


London – City & East: Hanif Abdulmuhit 26,760 (14.28%)
London – list vote: 59721 (2.43%)
London – Tower Hamlets (Weavers): Dilwara Begum 637 (16.78%)
London – Tower Hamlets (Millwall): Reza Mahbob 170 (3.87%)
Manchester – Cheetham Hill: Kay Phillips 502 (14.4%)
Manchester – Moss Side: Ali Shelmanu 153 (5.8%)
Wigan – Atherton: Stephen Hall 222 (6.7%)
Birmingham – Aston: Abdul Aziz 1406 (19.6%)
Birmingham – Moseley And Kings Heath: Ray Gaston 327 (4.91%)
Birmingham – Nechells: Mushtaq Hussain 781 (17.34%)
Birmingham – Sparkbrook: Nahim Ullah Khan 3032 (42.64%) elected
Birmingham – Springfield: Salma Iqbal 1920 (24.84%)
Bradford – Manningham: Arshad Ali 395 (7.5%)
Walsall – Palfrey: Arshad Kanwar 304 (7.6%)

40 responses to “Respect's first assessment on the elections”

  1. Spanish comunist Avatar
    Spanish comunist

    The Left List results were humiliating, but Respect in London outside Newham and Tower Hamlets had very poor results. It´s clear that there was an importat turn out over Johnson v Livingstone that help Labour to avoid the total disaster of the rest of England. I think that Respect strategics was wrong. You are very weak, but you need a Mayoral candidate and constituency candidats to build the vote, in the sense that the Green Party did. It´s significant that the vote in City and East was much bigger for Abdulmuhit than for the London wide list.
    You have a terrible problem in uniting the left. SWP is not going to be in a left coalition they don´t control, and the SA shows that the Socialist Party is not much different. And many of the local alternatives to Labour buy the argument of the comunalist right wing muslins of Respect.
    I note that many think Labour will turn on more on the right. I doubt that this is certain. I think is easier the opposite. And sure after defeat in the general elections Labour is going to turn on the left, but only on words and some gestures, only trying to take working class votes.
    I suppose the best you can do is working to improve and expande your organizations, working in the unions and the movement, and talk to the rest of the left, trying to have good relations but without expecting a miracolous reagrupament.
    Excuses for may spelling.

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  2. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    PRs take is here

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=2075

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  3. PhilW Avatar
    PhilW

    I’m afraid I don’t buy the the Permanent Revolution analysis, which says that the left failed because it abandoned large chunks of the socialist programme; presumably workers’ militias etc., as they have argued Respect should adopt this as part of its programme.

    Why didn’t they stand on this position – and thereby get their candidate elected in London, if all that is needed is putting up a socialist programme?

    And then their analysis ends with – not calling for militias – but calls for campaigns around housing etc! At least that is possibly re-entering the real world.

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  4. Laban Avatar
    Laban

    Why did Labour do so well compared to Respect in City and East ? I can see why everyone would pull together for Ken in the Mayoral elections, but given GGs general election vote, why did Respect not do better (I’m not a supporter but I expected them to do better) at Assembly/list level ?

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  5. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    I don’t think there’s anything so wrong or ultraleft as Phil seems to believe in basing yourselve in campaigns around housing etc.

    That is where I think the left have failed in not basing themselves in working class campaigns.

    I don’t think we have called for Respect to adopt workers’ militias as part of its program but we would certainly be for the right and necessity of organised self-defence against fascist attack, for example, in community defence patrols with labour movement involvement- there is nothing ultra left about this at all, in fact it’s a necessity when communities are being targeted by fascists. We certainly argued for this and successfully in Oldham Socialist Alliance and this made sense because we (then in Workers’ Power of course) were well integrated and helped found the local well-rooted community and trade union campaign against fascism and racist policing.

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  6. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Or another example would be the need for organised defence against immigration snatch squads- something we successfully argued for in the Sukula campaign in Bolton.

    If socialists base ourselves in the campaigning organisations of the working class and we rebuild them to a fighting strength where they can begin to chalk up some victories- spreading our message exponentially as success breeeds success like wildfire- then we can begin to turn around the whole sorry situation

    Jason

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  7. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    And what about the other more obvious parts of the socialist programme?
    Abortion on demand, secular schools, lesbian and gay rights, open borders, MPs on a workers wage, accountability of elected representatives etc.etc.etc.
    If you think the sum of the socialist programme amounts to workers militias no wonder you wanted to ditch it.

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  8. Kildén & Åsman » Bloggarkiv » Nytt kapitel i arbetarörelsens historia?

    […] Bloggat: Respect Supporters Blog1, Respect Supporters Blog2, Socialist Unity, MacUaid, Läs även andra bloggares åsikter om Arbetarrörelsen, New Labour, Nya Labour, England, Gordon […]

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  9. Hugh Avatar
    Hugh

    I have to say I think Respect (Renewal) really does need quite a spectacular comeback through an ambitious and friendly left regoupment, otherwise I think it’s going to lose its MP, and stagnate in any case. I think if we could get some unions involved, that would be marvelous.

    Also, I agree the Muslim-centered approach showed its limitations in these elections.

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  10. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Considering German got 4% last time this is a terrible result for the Left List and Renewal. We would expect that candidates in the two areas (TH & Sparkbrook) that we built and did well in the past would hold up – and they did. The left List did well in Preston where a base had also been built.

    I don’t think it’s good enough to hold up the results in TH, Birm & Preston as an indication of our progress. We are then missing the bigger picture which is the poor results for the left virtually everywhere else. Why weren’t voters convinced enough to vote for the left?

    Our Spanish comrade is wrong, the Labour Party will not move to the left either now or after an election. The LP has moved to the right after doing badly in elections and there is even more reason to suspect that the neo-liberals who control it now will follow a similar path. We need to focus on building among the rank and file and unite around campaigns to stop the nazi’s.

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  11. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Ray: I know the SWP are getting desperate but at some stage you are going to have to face up to some hard facts of life. The success in Sparkbrook owes very little to the work of the SWP. In the last two election campaigns there have been no SWP members involved at all. A small number were involved in Salma’s election in 2006. The most positive role they played was in the 2005 election under the constructive leadership of the then organiser Ian Mitchell. At that time some SWP members worked hard and made a valued contribution along with very many others. But even they would not pretend that the SWP were able to exert any political weight in Sparkbrook for the simple reason that they had none. For example, during the 2001 General Election for the Sparkbrook and Small Heath constituency (which includes Sparkbrook ward) SWP member and Socialist Alliance candidate Salman Mirza polled 304 votes (0.8%). During the 2005 General Election Salma polled 10,498 votes (27.5%) in the same constituency.

    The Sparkbrook success rests overwhelmingly on the association of Respect with George Galloway and the talent of Salma Yaqoob to impose herself on to the political scene in Birmingham and galvanise support. Even at the ‘height’ of their influence the SWP were very much bit players in that process. This is not an insult, just a fact. It explains why the split with the SWP had literally no impact in Sparkbrook. The first most of our voters would have heard about it, and the SWP, would have been from Labour party leaflets in which they reproduced excerpts from SWP attacks on Respect.

    Nobody likes admitting when they are wrong, especially when caught up in the white heat of a faction fight. But for your own sake if nothing else, the SWP desperately needs its cadre to face up to some harsh realities about the wisdom of the line they have followed in relation to Respect.

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  12. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    Ray – Left List did well in ONE ward in Preston. Even then they lost over one third of Michael Lavalette’s vote from 2007.

    If this had been as firm a vote for Respect as it was in Sparkbrook then they would have held a higher proportion and won the seat. The other three Preston seats were absolutely pitiful rubbish – worst of all was Riversway where a former Labour councillor for the ward was the only one who stood as Left List and having come a good second in 2007, lost over two thirds of her vote and came in fifth place behind the fascists and was nearly beaten by the Greens (who have have never stood before).

    Four years ago Respect won 2,423 votes, over 30%, across five wards in Preston, with a range of 24-34%.

    Fishwick Sabiha Vorajee 370 27% 3rd
    Riversway Elaine Abbot 415 24% 2nd
    St. George’s David Eaton 289 27% 3rd
    St Matthew’s Sumera Rizwan 587 34% 2nd
    Town Centre Mukhtar Master 762 34% 2nd
    Preston total 2423 30% 2nd

    Source: Socialist unity network dot co dot uk slash reports slash elections

    Last year in three of the seats Respect scored the following:
    Town Centre Michael Lavalette 1179 52%
    St. Matthews Samira Rezwan 339 25% 2nd
    Riverway Elaine Abbott 386 28% 2nd

    Source: Left List web site

    This year with the same five seats up for grabs as 2004, Left List declined to stand for one (because the centrist sitting Labour Councillor was suddenly a ‘left winger’) and scored 5%, 7.2% and 8.5% in three of the wards

    Town Centre, Muktar Master – 777 votes, 37%, 2nd place
    Riversway, Elaine Abbott – 99 votes, 7.2%, 5th place
    St Matthews, Danielle Field – 61 votes, 5%, 4th place
    Fishwick, Pete Agland, 107 votes, 8.5%, 3rd place

    from Left List website

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  13. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    “Nobody likes admitting when they are wrong, especially when caught up in the white heat of a faction fight. But for your own sake if nothing else, the SWP desperately needs its cadre to face up to some harsh realities about the wisdom of the line they have followed in relation to Respect.”

    I think that’s right but there are a couple of caveats-
    1) Ger directed it at Ray who has already admitted quite candidly that the left including Left List results were ‘terrible’- he is pointing out that while Respect Renewal results were slightly better that nevertheless Renewal results were still very poor-
    “I don’t think it’s good enough to hold up the results in TH, Birm & Preston as an indication of our progress. We are then missing the bigger picture which is the poor results for the left virtually everywhere else. Why weren’t voters convinced enough to vote for the left?”

    The SWP leadership may be in denial but Ray isn’t and , the second caveat, people like Ger from Respect Renewal are also from the indications of this post also in denial.

    The whole left needs to admit that electoralism has npot produced the qucik fixes hoped for and we need instead to concentrate on basic campaigning, building up organisations of activists and class fighters.

    This doesn’t preclude standing in elections but we should co-operate on building the basic combat units of class struggle to renew the left and defeat the right’s agenda in the shape of both Tories and New Labour and the fascist BNP.

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  14. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Jason: SWP members might well admit the results are terrible because some realities are simply impossible to deny. What I have yet to see from SWP members is any criticism of the politics that led to these ‘terrible’ results.

    You state that myself and others in Respect are supposedly in ‘denial’ about the results. Substantiate.

    As for the left needing ‘to concentrate on basic campaigning’, perhaps if you had even a little insight into what Respect councilors actually do, day in day out, you might think twice before indulging in abstract propaganda about ‘‘building up organisations of activists and class fighters’. It is tremendously difficult to get someone elected from a small fringe left wing party, especially under the British electoral system. My experience is that electoral success is impossible without local organization and networks of activists embedded in working class communities. In Birmingham, and I am sure the same applies to East London, Respect is rooted in such communities in a way I have never seen any left wing organisation be. Our councillors are engaged in constant campaigning, expressed in very diverse ways, over all sorts of issues. Just because that campaigning does not fit some far left prescription does not make it any less valid.

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  15. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Ger, you can attribute the results in Birmingham and TH entirely down to Renewal but that’s just more tubthumping from Renewal and everyone else on the left knows this.

    The left did poorly in this election because it was divided. There is no difference in my interpretation of the result and the SWP leadership’s. No one in the SWP is talking this up. Just pop along to Lenin’s site to verify this. Where we did well in Preston and Southampton we’re pleased to acknowledge this as is the case with Renewals positive results. But let’s not make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

    Jason wants an explanation of why the left did so poorly. Fundamentally it was because we were divided. More specifically, it was because the left was divided between three different political perspectives:
    1. Build Livingstones New Labour campaign (Renewal)
    2. Stand as an independent left opposing New Labour (Left List, SP etc.)
    3. Abstain from the election (PR)

    Unless the left drops the feuding and unifies around the activities of building in the unions and fighting the BNP then the few electorial achievements that came out of this debacle of an election will be pissed into the wind.

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  16. Nas Avatar
    Nas

    This tactic by SWP apologists of refusing to acknowledge the disastrous role of Rees and German in splitting Respect and then embaking on the Left List adventure is becoming very wearisome.

    Respect won a seat in Birmingham. It increased the vote in East London. Elsewhere in London the results were not so good. But all of this – all of it – is far, far better than the SWP’s performance.

    Using a split as an alibi, when it was the SWP leadership who drove that split through, won’t wash. Rees’s tactic of launching bitter attacks on Galloway and Yaqoob to cover up for his results is where this all ends up. It’s sectarian idiocy.

    It has also infected other areas of work that the SWP is engaged in. Many people in the anti-war movement are very unhappy about being accused of taking part in a “sectarian rally” by Rees and German. They are saying that German has compromised herself badly, maybe fatally, in the Stop the War Coalition. The trade unions, who provided a lot of money for the LMHR carnival, are equally unhappy that it was usurped as a cheap vote-grabber for the Left List. Some of hte acts are also unhappy.

    SWP members can put a stop to this. They need to speak out now in opposition to the disastrous course Rees and German have set. They were promised the end of Galloway, him and the rest moving to the right, the SWP inheriting Respect, a strong showing in the London elections in which German would definitely be elected and maybe Rahman (who won’t be hanging around long I venture), deepening influence for the SWP, refocussed revolutionary politics, and greater standing on the left just as the class struggle takes off.

    Instead, they have been led into an ever deepening crisis. It will become more acute as other independent forces in various fronts rebel at being treated in the way Rees tried to treat Galloway.

    Answer for SWP members: dump Rees and German now. Admittedly, the others are a shower who have gone along with those two, but removing them at lest opens up the possibility of resolving the crisis. Otherwise it is going to get far, far worse.

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  17. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    COMMENT DELETED TO SPARE THE AUTHOR’S BLUSHES AND TO REMIND US ALL THAT POSTING AFTER MIDNIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA. LIAM

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  18. tonyc Avatar
    tonyc

    “We’ll be displaying their heads at City Hall so you and the BNP can spit at them.”

    Why is this nasty piece of work allowed to continue posting such vile stuff?

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  19. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    “You state that myself and others in Respect are supposedly in ‘denial’ about the results. Substantiate. ”

    I said if you check ‘from the indications of this post’ referring to your earlier post in response to an article whose premise is “The local and London elections have been bad for the left and for progressive voters everywhere.”

    In response to this, rather than say actually Respect (Renewal)’s vote was still a small minority of the vote share in the few places we stood and that if the left are going to become a fighting force with the power for people to actually transform their lives and win thn we have a long way to go you only write about the ‘overwhelming’ success of Sparkbrook- 42% is certainly an excellent result but it is hardly replicated all over the country. You could say, so, I wasn’t writing about that but it was in response to an article asking why the left in general have done badly and there was no recognition of this only the SWP.

    You then write

    “As for the left needing ‘to concentrate on basic campaigning’, perhaps if you had even a little insight into what Respect councilors actually do, day in day out, you might think twice before indulging in abstract propaganda about ‘‘building up organisations of activists and class fighters’. ”

    Why is this ‘indulging’ and why ‘abstract’? I happen to think that only when the left becomes involved in the day to day struggles of a community, of the working class, can we help organise ordinary working class people to win real battles. There was nothing in my claim that said ‘unlike Respect Renewal’- you seem to have imagined this implication. I know some Respect Renewal people locally in Manchester who are stuck in campaigns and I do work with them.

    I’m not offering any ‘far left prescription’ whatever that means except that working class people should be in charge of thier own struggles and thier own lives. To make it a little less abstract for you I’ll highlight two ongoing campaigns for you to perhaps get Respect Renewl councillors and MP to back

    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2255

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=2092

    Finally, if you;re saying which I think you are we need to investigate ways in which we can stimulate and connect “networks of activists embedded in working class communities” then I fully agree!

    Let’s start working together (even more than we are), initiate or reinvigorate united front campaigns to defend and extend local services, against racism, against the war, against privatisation. Part of this will be working towards the convention of the left in September.

    Looking forward to hearing from you!

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  20. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    I’m glad to say Respect Renewal are fully supporting http://www.conventionoftheleft.org as I beleive are the SWP, Labour Representation Committee and several other organisations

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  21. ELA Avatar
    ELA

    COMMENT DELETED – troll elsewhere – LIAM

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  22. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Jason: you can’t substantiate your claim about Respect being in ‘denial’, hence all this dancing around about the “indications of this post’ referring to your earlier post” etc etc.

    In contrast to what you claim, the statement from Respect about the results are sober and balanced:

    ‘For parties to the left of Labour, results were also generally poor with some notable exceptions, particularly but not only in Birmingham. In London the best results were posted by Respect with almost 60,000 list votes, 2.43%, but this was still below the deposit saving level and less than half what was needed to get a seat on the Assembly. The combined left vote, excluding the Greens, was only 3.61% on the list.’

    http://www.respectrenewal.org/content/view/280/6/

    Ray: The single biggest reason the Respect vote dropped London wide, and the Left List were humiliated, was because of a completely unnecessary split that was dressed up as being about principled political differences by John Rees and Lindsey German, but really was about nothing more than their control freakery.

    You claim attributing ‘the results in Birmingham and TH entirely down to Renewal [is[ just more tubthumping from Renewal and everyone else on the left knows this.’ I was never involved in Tower Hamlets and generally refrain from making any comments about what happens there or the SWP’s contribution. I can speak with authority about Birmingham however. The facts are simple: the SWP influence is Sparkbrook has always been zilch. Their contribution to the success there was very minimal. Some SWP members worked hard around the 2005 and 2006 Sparkbrook campaigns delivering leaflets and the like and their contribution was valued. None were involved in either the 2007 or 2008 Sparkbrook campaigns. I have no particular interest in rewriting history. The SWP and Respect are finished in Birmingham, they were never much of a threat and therefore things did not get as nasty as they could have. If you want to delude yourself about SWP presence and contribution in Brum that is up to you. It makes little difference to anybody else.

    Finally, the split inside Respect has not stopped people working together in anti-fascist activity, anti-war work, against council cuts etc. But Nas is right when he says Rees and German’s sectarianism is now infecting other areas of work, most notably LMHR and STW. The best thing the SWP could do now is to formally leave Respect, end the farce of John Rees as National Secretary, and draw a line underneath the split. The longer the SWP stay engaged in a faction fight, the greater the chances of it distorting other areas of work, the increased likelihood their reputation will continue to suffer. If the Left List election results should tell you one thing it is this: the political direction set by Rees and German, which SWP members have somewhat slavishly followed these last 8 months or so, has been first and foremost a disaster for the SWP. Wise up and act accordingly.

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  23. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    “The SWP and Respect are finished in Birmingham, they were never much of a threat and therefore things did not get as nasty as they could have. ”

    This sums up your attitude to the SWP and anyone on the left who threatens your belief that Renewal is charging forward taking control of the left and leading it to glory. It’s based on bluff and bluster. Renewal did well in one small area of Brum with a high proportion of Muslims. You haven’t translated that to the rest of Brum because you are building on the legacy of Respect that existed before the split rather than expanding your periphery. If you can’t see this as a problem with your strategy and an indication of the limitations of your capabilities then that’s up to you. Your claim that the SWP is finished in Brum is fantastical and demonstrates your need to bend the truth. It’s like claiming that the SWP is finished in London because Renewal did well in one area.

    “Finally, the split inside Respect has not stopped people working together in anti-fascist activity, anti-war work, against council cuts etc.”

    Yes it has! You just have to read the comments on here and SUN to get a flavour of the antagonism towards LMHR, UAF and StWC from certain Renewal members. There was no official presence from Renewal on the anti-BNP demo outside City Hall. Although a few RR members did attend. Renewal had a rally for Livingstone on the day of the carnival so all the complaints about LMHR being exclusively Left List are nonsense. It’s the usual tactic from Renewal – split the organisation/event and then blame the official organisers. Unless you stop perpetuating your pointless feud with the SWP then you will alienate yourself from all those activists and workers who couldn’t give a tinkers cuss about it. Once again that’s your problem.

    Ger your hypocrisy astounds me sometimes. When the Left List polled just over 3% in elections before the London election you ridiculed that. But when Renewal gets less than two and a half percent overall you claim it’s a good result. For an organisation that didn’t even retain its deposit I think a time for reflection is required.

    Anyway, we can chew the cud all day but we’ll never convince each other so the best we can do is to get on with activity. Despite the overwhelming hegemony of Renewal some of us Swappies still exist in small pockets, only coming out at night to do a few quick paper sales before scurrying back to our holes when we hear the advance of the mighty Renewal. Couldn’t resist sending it all up.

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  24. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Just in case there’s any doubt about the folly of backing Livingstone in the election and not uniting behind a left opposition here’s his analysis of the aftermath:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/09/livingstone.boris

    “Labour’s campaign in London gained major support from business. The Financial Times concluded that the majority of big business in London supported my re-election. There is no way to check that, but I know from meetings that very large sections of big business supported my campaign.

    This is because they understand the need for large strategic investment, which only the state can provide. In London much is physical infrastructure. Tube modernisation, Crossrail and the Olympic games each cost £1bn a year. But the same principle applies elsewhere.”

    Livingstones call for a Lib/Lab alliance:

    “One important development at this election was a formal agreement with the Green party calling for second preference mayoral votes for each other. This benefited the Greens – who added 40,000 votes and maintained their share of the vote and existing number of London assembly seats – but also aided the high turnout and Labour. Had I been re-elected I would have given Green nominees a central role in my administration.

    In contrast, Lib Dem failure in London was massive. They chose to stay outside the progressive alliance of Labour and the Greens. As a result they failed even to reach double-figure support in the mayoral election, and their London assembly seats fell from five to three. Hopefully this suicidal orientation will be reversed in the next four years.”

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  25. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “There was no official presence from Renewal on the anti-BNP demo outside City Hall. Although a few RR members did attend.”

    By ‘official presence’ you mean what exactly? A letter of permission from our mothers?

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  26. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    A banner perhaps. Someone speaking at the demo. A note would’ve been a nice touch though 😉

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  27. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Someone speaking at the demo?

    Now we’ve been here before.

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  28. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Ray,

    Read a bit more carefully. I said the SWP and Respect were finished in Brum, not that the SWP were finished. And calm your imagination down about how I supposedly react to people I disagree with. Because the SWP did not carry as much weight in Birmingham as they did in Tower Hamlets, the impact of the split was less and the fallout not as bitter. My comment meant nothing more nor less. If you want to delude yourself about what the SWP represent in Brum, that is up to you, but it is apparent to me that you have not the faintest idea about what we do here and are relying on second hand gossip instead. If it makes you sleep easier at night, you stick with it.

    As for your criticism about how we build in Brum, you could easily make the same points about Preston. Building a serious electoral alternative is a long process. It is not easy and involves consistent and painstaking work. But by any standards, what has been achieved in Birmingham is remarkable and provides a substantial foundation from which to build outwards for the future. As the Left List in Preston are discovering, even with an elected councillor in one ward, it is a big task to get a second, never mind a third. We have locked down Sparkbrook and can now turn our attentions elsewhere. (I think you should pause in future before your denigrate our base in the Muslim community, with the inferences that Muslim support is somehow lesser than non-Muslim support.)

    I reiterate what I said earlier, I don’t see any evidence of the split undermining any united front work here in Brum. Again, I think you need to be a bit less hysterical when confronted with some criticism.

    Your comments on Livingstone are simply bizarre. His appeal to business on the merits of a social democratic approach to managing capitalism is standard stuff. What do you expect? There is nothing new in this, and in case you have forgotten, in the run up to the election SWP bloggers were at pains to emphasise that Lindsey German was calling for a vote for him, despite his overtures to big business. Nor is there anything new in his strategic approach to building the largest progressive bloc which, of course, would aim to appeal to Lib Dem voters. Indeed, it was always going to be impossible for Livingstone to win without getting Lib Dem 2nd preferences and it appears their transfers to Johnson was one important factor in Ken’s defeat. Of course it is right to try neutralise their hostility, both now and then.

    Finally, if you want to do something constructive about ending the feud between Respect and the SWP here is an idea: make an argument within your party that they draw a line underneath their Respect experiences and formally withdraw from our party. Believe me, it is the SWP who have most to lose if they continue with the line they have been following these last few months.

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  29. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    “Jason: you can’t substantiate your claim about Respect being in ‘denial’, hence all this dancing around about the “indications of this post’ referring to your earlier post” etc etc. ”

    Just to clarify I never said Respect is in denial I said
    “people like Ger from Respect Renewal are also from the indications of this post also in denial.”

    I used the word indications of this post in the original – it is not dancing around. You obviously misunderstood my point but that’s OK I;ll accept a simple apology.

    There is a leaflet from Respect, Respect Rebewal that is to be clear whoich is relatively sober in its judgments about the election – good, we need sober analysis.

    I think the best way forward is to now concentrate on activity and building class struggle.

    You don’t reply to how youre getting on ger in getting statements of support for the Bolton strike and the antideportation campaign from RR councillors and MPs- there’s a rally on Tuesday outside the Withins school.

    I appreciate you have to make a few phone calls etc but it would have bene useful if you say Jason I phoned GG yesterday or GG’s agent and we expect a reply on Monday etc. Just to confirm etc.

    You make a suggestion
    “Finally, if you want to do something constructive about ending the feud between Respect and the SWP here is an idea: make an argument within your party that they draw a line underneath their Respect experiences and formally withdraw from our party.”

    I don’t see how this is constructive. Perhaps better would be to say let’s arrange meetings of rapprocehment between leading figures of the two halves of Respect and agree how we cna co-operate together in future united action along with other activists on the left. If the democratic leaders don’t agree elect new ones and if this doesn’t happen then activists on the gorund should try such rapprochement.

    Yesterday I was at a a meeting in Manchester of NUT/UCU/Unison activists about building support for Withins and the public sector pay cut fight. Both RR and SW members were there as well as others- it can be done. Unity in action, classs truggle activity to draw in new activists and organise class struggle is what we need.

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=2074

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  30. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    “Jason: you can’t substantiate your claim about Respect being in ‘denial’, hence all this dancing around about the “indications of this post’ referring to your earlier post” etc etc. ”

    Just to clarify I never said Respect is in denial I said
    “people like Ger from Respect Renewal are also from the indications of this post also in denial.”

    I used the word indications of this post in the original – it is not dancing around. You obviously misunderstood my point but that’s OK I;ll accept a simple apology.

    There is a leaflet from Respect, Respect Rebewal that is to be clear whoich is relatively sober in its judgments about the election – good, we need sober analysis.

    I think the best way forward is to now concentrate on activity and building class struggle.

    You don’t reply to how youre getting on ger in getting statements of support for the Bolton strike and the antideportation campaign from RR councillors and MPs- there’s a rally on Tuesday outside the Withins school.

    I appreciate you have to make a few phone calls etc but it would have bene useful if you say Jason I phoned GG yesterday or GG’s agent and we expect a reply on Monday etc. Just to confirm etc.

    You make a suggestion
    “Finally, if you want to do something constructive about ending the feud between Respect and the SWP here is an idea: make an argument within your party that they draw a line underneath their Respect experiences and formally withdraw from our party.”

    I don’t see how this is constructive. Perhaps better would be to say let’s arrange meetings of rapprocehment between leading figures of the two halves of Respect and agree how we cna co-operate together in future united action along with other activists on the left. If the democratic leaders don’t agree elect new ones and if this doesn’t happen then activists on the gorund should try such rapprochement.

    Yesterday I was at a a meeting in Manchester of NUT/UCU/Unison activists about building support for Withins and the public sector pay cut fight. Both RR and SW members were there as well as others- it can be done. Unity in action, classs truggle activity to draw in new activists and organise class struggle is what we need.

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=2074

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  31. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Apparently, whether or not a message of support is emailed from Respect councilors to a strike has now become the litmus test for their left creditentials. What they do day to day for their constituents in one of the most working class wards in the city is not good enough. But why stop at a message of support? Presumably they should be doing workplace collections, organizing delegations, taking people from Birmingham up to Bolton in a show of solidarity? And why stop at Bolton? Presumably the same bar applies to any dispute anywhere?

    This is infantile, houlier than thou moralism. I have not followed what’s happening in Bolton for the simple reason I am overwhelmed with what I have on my plate here as it is. I don’t feel that makes me any less a socialist. I know this ‘excuse’ might not good enough for the Christian Brothers wing of the far left, but considering you don’t actually have any members in Birmingham it is a bit difficult to do a compare and contrast with your saintly practice.

    Thanks but no thanks for the advice about the Respect split. In view of the fact you repeat the slanders from the pro war left that Respect ‘adapts at the moment to the Mosque and local Muslim small businesses as its means of survival’, you will understand why I might decline. But while we on the issue of you actually substantiating some of the claims you repeat about Respect, please lets see your evidence for the charge that in Birmingham Respect ‘adapts at the moment to the Mosque and local Muslim small businesses as its means of survival’. Your organisation made the claim. Now back it up. Or is this going to be another one you can’t substantiate? (In case you have not worked it out, it’s a rhetorical question).

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  32. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Ger:

    I only asked for solidarity for the Bolton strike because it happens to be a very important strike. It’s nothing to do with holier than thou moralism- as it happens a number of people are involved. The antideportation campaign of Muhammad Hussain also deserves support.

    It’s not some kind of competition but about building basic solidarity. Please feel free to ask for similar solidarity for campaigns, strikes, other struggles.

    Secondly, I NEVER said “adapts at the moment to the Mosque and local Muslim small businesses as its means of survival’ Never. I never make claims about the situation in Birmingham because I don’t know and neither have I made let alone repeated accusations about Respect- I made a comment on one of your posts but it’s not worth dwelling on anymore I’d suggest.

    It is from an article from PR7 but Ger the age of textual warfare by quoting bits from one group’s publication or from Lenin or someone is, mercifully, over. It’s boring anyway and doesn’t get us anywhere.

    How can we concretely aid working class self-activity to bring new activists and workers into the struggle for change- that should be our guiding principle.

    Many members of RR and SWP Respect/Left List I think do want to get over damaging rows and concentrate on building practical networks to aid the struggle and draw in new activists into class struggle.

    Let’s get on with it!

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  33. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    “Let’s get on with it!”

    Good luck with that one Jason!

    Ger, the whole tone of your posts are antagonistic towards others on the left who hold a different point of view. How do you expect to build solidarity with anyone on the left if you behave in this way?

    Your statement that the SWP is finished in Birmingham is not only untrue but sectarian. Is that how you wish to forge unity by triumphally declaring the demise of anyone on the left that doesn’t agree with you? Do you want the left further weakened by getting rid of those who you deem undesireable? Perhaps after the split you see yourself as a big fish in a little pond but don’t let all that power go to your head.

    If you think that thousands of Respect members are going to hand over Respect to a minority who split because they couldn’t get their own way then you’ll be sorely disappointed. Your undemocratic organisation is not what thousands of Respect members joined.

    Personally, I won’t work with anyone on the left who is using joint work in campaigns to perpetuate the feud. You run the very large risk, Ger, of alienating workers who want to engage in activity but don’t want anything to do with this feud.

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  34. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Personally I’d work with anyone- RR, SWP, left of Labour, amarchists- in united front campaigns.

    In Manchester we are beginning to work together again, trying to set up various rank and file initiatives- very small so far but a move in the right direction.,

    Good suggestions from Ger on the Bolton strike – workplace collections etc, though so far the strike is paid but still raising awareness and even finds fine.

    There’s also a strike upcoming in Derby. Send messages of support to Dave Wilkinson davewilkinson @ nasuwt.net

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  35. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    More on Derby strike here
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7390148.stm

    Our role should be assisting and fomenting working class rebellions

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  36. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    More on Derby strike here
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7390148. stm

    Our role should be assisting and fomenting working class rebellions

    Liam- for some reason your site seems to not be taking the url at the moment so I’ve put a gap in but please copy and paste into into address bar taking out gap

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  37. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    More on Derby strike here
    on BBC- Liam’s site or software won’t allow me to post url but put in “sinfin bbc strike threat over academy plan” into google and it will come up

    Our role should be assisting and fomenting working class rebellions

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  38. Ger Francis Avatar
    Ger Francis

    Jason: Glad to hear you do not subscribe to the political stance of your own organisation on Respect. My apologies for assuming that you did.

    Ray: You are right. I am antagonistic towards those who repeat the lies of the pro war ‘left’ about Respect communalism, being in thrall to Mosques, small businessmen etc etc. I make no apologies for it. I never said SWP were ‘finished’ but rather that their contribution to Birmingham Respect’s success was very modest. But then you know that already.

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  39. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Ger: ha ha- I’m just saying that it is silly to quote articles as if we all have a monolithic stance on everything.

    I’m not convinced that Respect in either of its incarnations is the right way to go but am happy to and do work with RR supporters in united front campaigns and initiatives.

    If Respect or elements of it make/made concessions to e.g. business people or religious leaders (and at one stage they did e.g. the famous Lyndsey German quote when she used the word shibboleth) that is nothing to with being pro-war. I assume you mean people like Nick Cohen or possibly the AWL- they are wrong on Iraq and imperialism.

    Anyway glad you think it’s important to support the Bolton strike. Cheers

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  40. Ray Avatar
    Ray

    Well then you’re antagonistic to the truth Ger because the issue was raised in context of specific behaviour among certain members while Respect was organising in Birmingham and TH. You can generalise about these specific criticisms and characterise them as Islamophobic but that doesn’t address the issue. If you want an organisation that is democratic and accountable it necessitates open dialogue about differences of political opinion. Isn’t that what those who split Respect claimed the SWP didn’t allow? I can’t see any democratic structure for allowing this process in Renewal so perhaps that’s why you believe you speak for everyone.

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