Richard Searle and Chris Chilvers have written this piece which they have asked me to post saying that “it’s  a contribution to the discussion on regroupment from two of us in Manchester. The ideas have been floating around for sometime, the regroupment event focused us in making a start. The document is to be read as a contribution to what flows next not as a counter point to the published text”. Both are former members of the SWP

 

Such are the days that shall be! But

What are the deeds of today

In the days of the years we dwell in

That wear our lives away?

Why, then, and for what are we waiting?

There are but three words to speak

We will it, and what is the foeman

But the dream strong wakened and weak?

R. Tressell, The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists (1914), P. 504.

 

‘The dream strong wakened and weak’ indeed. Marxists are always aware in varying degrees of our history but usually rather less aware of the demands of the present and the future. What is it to be a revolutionary in the 21st century in Western Europe? Why do we consider revolution as possible? What are we doing this for?

‘In the days of the years we dwell in’

What is the meaning of these days? Globalisation has reshaped much of the world in uneven, haphazard but real ways. It has been thoroughly destabilizing across the world and in every aspect of our lives. Think about the art of communication alone and how it has changed in the past ten or even five years. One feature in Britain has been a thorough restructuring of the working class as it was previously understood. The ‘big battalions’ of labour with the huge workplaces have gone for the most part, replaced by offices, supermarkets and highly specialized sectors of engineering (to take one example). Huge employers remain in a few areas such as the NHS with 1.4 million employees but the traditions of an identity conscious working class with traditions of mass struggle has fallen away. The offices and supermarkets have not developed this tradition and so the sense of working class consciousness is yet to reappear. When it does, it is likely to do so in new ways and forms. Wage labour still exists as the defining relationship of capitalism but it is heavily mitigated by most workers understanding of their lives.

There are areas of the world where the growth of the working class has been based around manufacturing industry and the traditional model. In Argentina, Brazil and Chile for example, to be a working class activist thirty years ago would have meant prison or the football stadium (and not to watch a game) but now mass workers parties have emerged. More than this, the political expression of socialist ideas has been dominated by the continuance of Cuba’s regime, Hugo Chavez and Subcomandante Marcos and the awesome Zapatista rebellion in Mexico.

The Seattle explosion, the push for global justice and the anger at global poverty have given birth to occasional movements against the global institutions of the world economy. The growing awareness of climate change and its disastrous implications has politicised environmental movements and fed into the anger at effete global institutions of capitalism. These movements have involved organizational and political forms of expression that challenge the left’s traditional methods and the left has struggled to adapt. What does this mean for how we act as revolutionary socialists, the forms of organization we are involved with and the language we use?

Globalisation has also involved war and the assertion of imperial power. This has been profoundly contradictory but has represented the attempt by the US government to break free of the lack of confidence borne of the Vietnam defeat. Nowhere has this been unchallenged and nowhere has it secured a victory or even proceeded as designed. However, the US and British governments have remained committed to these adventures and all the ‘shock and awe’ propaganda this brings. There have been powerful and stunningly strong indigenous movements of resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq but these have not been leftist in character in any sense. There has been a permanent requirement for an anti-war movement in Britain but this has taken different forms and complexions. The mass audience for the anti-imperialist message and the autonomous and complex politics of the indigenous movements of resistance raise significant questions for revolutionaries. How do we argue as anti-imperialists and support non leftist resistance movements?

The fall of Stalinism has been a major contributory factor to the demise of leftist resistance movements. It has also contributed to the decay of working class identity in the last thirty years. Many activists viewed the collapse of the Soviet Union as the historic end of Marxism and the socialist project. The sense of defeat that demoralized many has robbed the labour movement of huge amounts of experience, tradition and knowledge. This did not just affect the communist parties but the reformist left as well, which was heavily influenced by varying shades of sympathy and ‘Cold War’ loyalty to the ‘socialist camp’. Much as we despised Stalinism, its Western corollary did act as the intellectual glue of the labour movement.

Likewise the post Second World War tradition of Marxist organization, especially among ‘Trotskyist’ groups has proved equally time limited. This has been characterized by a complete lack of success in reaching a mass audience. Such was the absorption and distortion of Marxist politics and strategy that much of the left has developed organizations that bear a closer relation to Stalinism than Marxism. Given the singular lack of success of the last sixty years, should we try to follow the prescription again? If not, what ways should we work in? How should we work together? Why should we work together and as revolutionaries now? Is this the end of an entire historical episode? Is it the beginning of another?

‘Better phone up Robin Hood. Ask him for some wealth distribution’

This is not an argument for throwing out the whole tradition that we have tried to build. Rather it is an argument for re-assessing the tradition in a thoroughgoing way that examines its relevance. If there is to be ‘re-groupment’, is it to be much like the formulas of the last thirty years? None of these have been particularly successful.

The pressing requirement to construct broad parties of the left is not accidental. It is the logic of the impact of the collapse of Stalinism in taking away whole layers of experience and vision from the movement. It is the logic of the changing world of globalization, imperial power, non leftist resistance movements and a restructured working class struggling to find its identity. Respect has the potential to be such a broad party. At present, the Green Party also has this potential, though a split is likely in the event of the ascendancy of the Green Left. The coalescing of a Green Left is an important dimension of the anti-war movement and the political turmoil of the Labour government.


The construction of these parties, their politics, culture, democracy, community oriented strategy and organizational strength poses enormous challenges to revolutionaries. Building campaigning parties that stand for more than elections is a challenge. This is an aspect of the resistance we are building. There are other types and aspects of resistance that will pose challenges of this magnitude. What is our relationship to these projects? How does this affect our activity as Respect members or as Green Party members? Should we be politically exclusive?

‘There are but three words to speak. We will it.’

What is the nature of common struggle? When we link arms in solidarity, why do we do it? We all wish to build the struggle in any way possible and this often involves solidarity with those that fight back. How do we do this in a meaningful way that builds long term support for our ideas? These are important questions that raise uncomfortable conclusions about some of the cardinal principles on which we have organized historically. We have very small numbers compared to our tasks and it is clear that democratic centralism does not fit as an organizational method for any grouping of revolutionaries that emerges. At present, it is not fit for purpose. Indeed, with the kind of tasks before us, it is a serious question to wonder if it will ever be the correct form of organization again.

What is the essence of being a revolutionary? Is it to carry around our principles as baggage for all to see and wonder at? What have we learned? What have we shared? How and why do we organize with fellow revolutionaries? Reflection is a precious and valuable asset that many of us are poorly skilled to use. We need to learn to educate ourselves as well as agitate, to reflect upon our experiences in trying to build a broad party, to do this collectively. This demands an alternative form of organization derived more from the global justice movement than from the post war Marxist – the loose collective model that does not establish itself as separate from the wider party. A national grouping of such collectives will necessarily have a federated structure with a high degree of autonomy that permits the maximum political development of local leaders within the broad party. Shouldn’t we avoid false dichotomies in the new party? Are we trying to build a transitional party ‘formation’ or a stable political culture and force that can grow into something much larger?

We firmly believe that Respect represents the birth of the latter force that can form a core political location and culture for the larger re-alignments of the left (not necessarily the traditional left) that takes shape in the next decade. In order to develop an effective, non-sectarian current of revolutionaries, the collectives will need to conduct themselves with complete transparency, openness and in a manner that is consistently fraternal. Discussion, reflection and collective experience sharing in building Respect and in the meaning of being a revolutionary now are good aims. Our activism in building Respect and the networks and alliances that will promote the aims of Respect should speak for itself.

Please feel free to discuss these and other proposals.

62 responses to “Present imperfect – future tense? In Search of a New Vision”

  1. An interesting contribution. I have a two comments:

    1) I think the ideological impact of the collapse of Stalinism is overstated. In my opinion, there were real struggles in eastern Europe over the way forward, in which the working class was defeated. This was especially clear in East Germany (Poland too). So, I’m not sure it was about the loss of “collective ideas” or whatever, inherited from stalinism, more a real smashing of incipient workers’ organisation. This would have had its political impact in the West too, along with (and facilitating) the structural changes Clive and Richard discuss.

    You say “it is clear that democratic centralism does not fit as an organizational method for any grouping of revolutionaries that emerges”. One of the problems is that we all have different interpretations of what “democratic centralism” means, based on our own experiences in and of different revolutionary groups. Perhaps when we use the term, to reject it or accept it, we should define what we mean? (I will refrain, for the moment, from stating my position, thus absolving myself from the need to define democratic centralism!)

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  2. I agree with Phil’s point that what we mean by democratic centralism will depend to a significant degree on which interpretation of it has been dominant in the organisations we have been involved with. As an SWP member I accepted that party’s interpretation up until the point where I had ‘doubts’ and started to read up on the background material. At that stage I realised that what we had in the SWP was bureaucratic centralism – a rather different beast.

    However, even if we can point to rare instances where a workable form of democratic centralism has existed, I share the doubts expressed in Richard and Chris’s article about its applicability in current conditions. Even if we wished to work towards the establishment of a democratic centralist organisation in the future – and I’m not convinced that that would be the best way forward – we would first need to engage in a long-term discussion about what we mean by democractic centralism, and a careful analysis of how and why it has proven historically to be so open to abuse. That discussion and analysis, I feel, would be the work of months and possibly years. At the present time I don’t think that it would be useful to place democratic centralism on the agenda for this new Marxist current.

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  3. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    “This demands an alternative form of organization derived more from the global justice movement than from the post war Marxist – the loose collective model that does not establish itself as separate from the wider party.

    A national grouping of such collectives will necessarily have a federated structure with a high degree of autonomy that permits the maximum political development of local leaders within the broad party.”

    an interesting proposal, and given over four decades of rather crude Leninism**, a worthwhile one

    I doubt that it will receive a favourable response given that there are still people under the illusion that some form of British Leninism is 1) productive 2) necessary 3) can achieve something

    that is despite all of the evidence to the contrary

    so until many socialists get out of the mentality of talking down to the working classes, or assuming that they know best and the rest of us are thick then the Left in Britain is destined to remain primarily middle-class and small

    **I mean from 1968 onwards, with the current crop of Left “leaders”

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  4. Some interesting points, although limited to the ideological rather than the economic impact of the collapse of Stalinism.
    And second hidebound by its insistence that Respect will be the vehicle through which a Marxist group will be built. It can’t be, as it is predicated on a refusal to criticise George Galloway and as such is highly undemocratic.

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  5. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    George Galloway’s views on Cuba are a load of bull.

    There you go Bill I’ve critised Galloway on an issue, lets see if I get kicked out of Respect.

    If I don’t will you agree that you are talking horse poo?

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  6. Criticise him in your paper over abortion (on here would be a start) and I’ll believe you.

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  7. I think billj is refering to the lack of a cohesive challenge to the organisational and strategic control that Galloway has in Renewal rather than to individuals making critical comments on a blog. It’s the very same accusation Renewalists make of the SWP (mistakenly, I believe) so it should be familiar yet Renewalists seem to have no insight yet into how it affects their own organisation.

    The politics of Galloway do not lend themselves to the building of a marxist organisation. This was tacitly acknowledged by the SWP (and most revolutionaries who formed Respect) but seems to have been forgotten/ignored by revolutionaries in Renewal after the split.

    Building a marxist organisation out of Respect flies in the face of its original remit. The aim of Respect was to unite reformists and revolutionaries in an attempt to build a left opposition outside of Labour. It was an acknowledgement of the evidence that revolutionaries would not be successful in rebuilding the left if they continued to worked alone. It was the ONLY reason capable of countering the criticism that revolutionaries should only be involved in building a revolutionary party rather than forming alliances with reformists.

    Therefore, now that Renewal is essentially controlled by reformists, it’s extremely unlikely that marxists in Renewal will be able to reorientate the political direction of Renewal towards marxism. Renewal has split from the majority of revolutionaries so it’s even more likely that the marxist current left over after the split will be further marginalised.

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  8. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    No one is trying to “build a Marxist organisation out of Respect” – Some people are trying to put together a new Marxist current WITHIN Respect.

    The biggest problem with your outlook is that it assumes that only “revolutionaries” can have the right strategic outlook on the current questions of the day. This is false.

    Take a concrete question, say “How do we defeat this council house sell off?” – on such a question the local activist (who considers themselves left-wing but doesn’t have a fully formed coherent political ideology) may very well have a much better idea of who we win over the majority of the tenants to vote No to a stock transfer, then a commited “revolutionary” has.

    If the strategies and tactics or “reformists” are always duff then what does “rebuilding the left” mean in your formulation? What can it mean other then building up a milieu who ready to be recruited to the real solution, the real answer the REVOLUTIONARY PARTY?

    What we need to build is a mass party of socialist activists fighting in there communities and workplaces for concrete goals. Within that those of us who remain convinced that we ultimately need a revolution will agitate to spread that view and add our perspectives to the mix in deciding tactics for advancement.

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  9. Well its just that in your statement you say that you need the maximum democracy, but then you won’t allow public criticism of Galloway on issues like abortion.
    How to square the circle?

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  10. Bill – this may seem paradoxical but GG often seems to loom larger for non-Respect members than for those of us who belong to it.

    To my knowledge there are no secret orders forbidding criticism of him. After Big Brother Alan Thornett and John Lister tried to move a resolution criticising the action at the NC. This was stymied by another John.

    The Respect banner was outside Parliament when the recent vote on the abortion limit was taken. What’snot helpful when tying to build an organisation is constant and frequent denunciations of people who hold different views on a range of issues. There will be a Respect conference in October. It will decide on policy and any group of Respect members will be able to table resolutions on anything they want in the certain knowledge that no one will have caucused to decide on the block vote the night before. That will be a change. Arguments will be won and lost on the basis of politics.

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  11. “No one is trying to “build a Marxist organisation out of Respect” – Some people are trying to put together a new Marxist current WITHIN Respect.”

    Perhaps this thread is not associated with the one entitled, “An invitation to participate in the creation of a new Revolutionary Socialist Organisation.” I assumed it was.

    “Take a concrete question, say “How do we defeat this council house sell off?” – on such a question the local activist (who considers themselves left-wing but doesn’t have a fully formed coherent political ideology) may very well have a much better idea of who we win over the majority of the tenants to vote No to a stock transfer, then a commited “revolutionary” has.”

    I don’t deny this but it’s also true that local activists can learn from more experienced activists some of whom are revolutionaries. There is also the influence of different left currents on local campaigns to consider. This can mean the difference between either winning or losing the fight against stock transfer. It would be an abnegation of our responsibility as marxists not to argue our case in these situations.
    Politics is not about maintaining a status quo regardless of political differences. That’s the classic mistake of marxists who make consessions hoping to avoid conflict in an alliance or during a campaign and this invariably leads to them becoming isolated and the alliance or campaign being steered towards compromises that undermine the alliance/campaign.

    “If the strategies and tactics or “reformists” are always duff then what does “rebuilding the left” mean in your formulation? What can it mean other then building up a milieu who ready to be recruited to the real solution, the real answer the REVOLUTIONARY PARTY?”

    Rebuilding the left means developing a layer of activists who can agitate and organise in their workplaces and communities. Respect was an attempt to build this but it failed. When Respect was formed, revolutionaries had no illusions that it would bring about socialism which is the fundamental reason for being a marxist. We understood the reformist nature of Respect but that doesn’t mean we do all the compromising.
    While we want to work with others to rebuild the left we are aiming to recruit people to marxism. The two are interrelated and not incompatible. Reformists have their own agenda of reforming the capitalist system and recruiting activists to this strategy except they aren’t as explicit about it. That’s why there is invariably conflict between the strategies of reformists and revolutionaries. I don’t think that stops us working together but unless compromise works both ways then an alliance will break down.

    “What we need to build is a mass party of socialist activists fighting in there communities and workplaces for concrete goals. Within that those of us who remain convinced that we ultimately need a revolution will agitate to spread that view and add our perspectives to the mix in deciding tactics for advancement.”

    I have no disagreement with this perspective but unless we can all agree to compromise on strategy then an alliance will be difficult to develop. The most obvious example of how this could have affected an alliance occured during the recent elections with the different strategies of the LL and Renewal. These types of problem will reoccur unless there is a willingness to compromise on all sides.

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  12. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    Ray – “It would be an abnegation of our responsibility as marxists not to argue our case in these situations”

    One of my points is that being a Marxist does not give you some privileged access to the truth. Yes, I do believe that the politics of the IS tradition (further note: There are lots of different Marxist traditions remember) can add clarity to analysis and provide fruitful suggestions for concrete tactics. But this is a different outlook to believing that the “revolutionaries” in the broad party will always have the correct position and just need to convince the stupid “reformists” of it.

    A broad socialist party that really worked would involve different ideas coming together and being discussed and listened to and solutions being found collectively. This is not possible if you have one set of people coming in to discussions with preformed solutions that their members are honour bound to vote for however the discution goes.

    A possible response to this argument – “So you’d never caucus with your ‘Marxist current’ before a meeting? Don’t you realise that ideas aren’t easily jelled together , there’s always a conflict between revolutionary strategy and reformism. Revolutionaries need to collectively organise to make sure their tactics win.”

    Sure, when really important decisions are being made it might some times be helpful to discuss them with people in your close political tradition, seeking to get sharp clarity, though it’s probably not helpful to caucus regularly before branch meetings and such like. It is very easy to alienate people when they turn up to a meeting to find a group already seemingly making the decisions with out them.

    As I said before, I reject the idea that revolutionaries have a preverliged access to the truth, it follows that they should not make up there minds on “their line” before engaging in discussion from this it follows that while caucusing might ocationaly be useful mandating members of your group to push a certain line before they have taken part in discussion never is.

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  13. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    Ray – “Perhaps this thread is not associated with the one entitled, “An invitation to participate in the creation of a new Revolutionary Socialist Organisation.” I assumed it was.”

    If you read all the points of that proposal you will see that it is a proposal for regroupment within Respect. That may be good or bad but that’s what it is.

    Ray – “it’s also true that local activists can learn from more experienced activists some of whom are revolutionaries”

    I agree. Some of whom are revolutionaries, who bring (or should bring) important perspectives to the questions at hand. Some of the other “experienced activists” won’t be revolutionaries, they will also bring important perspectives. The key is for none to believe that they can solve the problems without the input of the other.

    Ray – “classic mistake of marxists who make consessions hoping to avoid conflict in an alliance or during a campaign”

    Some ‘marxists’ aregued that making not making StW clearly anti-imerperlaist would from the start was a ‘consession’. Wouldn’t you agree that it was the right move? You see things aren’t as clear cut as thinking that there are marxist positions and reformist positions and the marxists just have to push their lines.

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  14. “One of my points is that being a Marxist does not give you some privileged access to the truth.”

    Has anyone ever claimed this?
    It seems a bit of a strawman caricature of marxists

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  15. I think Adamski’s just put the ‘dis’ into disingenuous…

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  16. it is a proposal for regroupment within Respect. That may be good or bad but that’s what it is.

    It’s a proposal for regroupment with an orientation to RESPECT, but not necessarily (or entirely) within.

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  17. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Can Ray explain how SW member and president of the CWU, Jane Loftus being a “revolutionary”, and who declined to campaign for a NO vote against the bad deal last year was showing better tactical judgement than the “reformist” exec member Dave Warren, who campaigned for a NO vote?

    Once the CWU exec had voted to recommend aceptance any member of the exec who wanted to campign NO had to register their dissent and intention to do so.

    Two “reformists” did regsister dissent, and one of them actively camaigned for rejection.

    Jane Loftus did not register her dissent. Nor did who speak out against the deal while the until after the ballot was over.

    Can ray also exmplain how the “revolutionaries” who write the SWP’s rank and file paper “Post Worker” failed to take a firm position against de-regulation and profitability outlined in Royal Mail’s “Shaping the Future” proposals.

    Instead of a clear recommendation for a NO vote, Post Worker published a “debate”, giving most space to NEC members Norman Candy and John Farnan arguing in favour of acceptance!

    in Post Worker, the SWP member on the Postal Executive, Jane Loftus, declined to take up the NO argument, instead leaving the argument to lay reps without a national position in the union. Jane Loftus also missed the crucial vote on the exec on Shaping the Future.

    Now, i don’t know her personally, but by all accounts jane Loftus is a nice woman, and a committed militant. She has been in difficult positions, and had to make difficult judgements.

    But it is hard to understand the SWP’s strategy in the CWU, expect that not being overly-critical and jeopardising their relationship with Billy hayes and Dave Ward does seem high on the agenda (that noise is Duncan Hallas spinning in his grave)

    Generally it would be very hard to explain how their “revolutionary” judgement has been any seful guide to strategy or tactics at all.

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  18. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    Adamski – I’m not trying to set up a straw man, rather I am trying to argue that the position of thinking that there is such a straightforward thing as “revolutionary strategy” and that it is definitionally superior to “reformist strategy” requires the assumption that Marxists have privileged access to the truth.

    As andyinswindon shows in a concrete example above being a revolutionary doesn’t give one special powers to get it right on the day to day strategic questions.

    Even if you reject this, how can you justify a “revolutionary” group making up its mind before entering into meetings and hearing the arguments put by others? If you don’t think this takes place how would you discribe causasing before Respect branch meetings and then mandating your members to all vote the way you decided?

    Phil – “It’s a proposal for regroupment with an orientation to RESPECT, but not necessarily (or entirely) within.”

    I would be against a “for regroupment with an orientation to RESPECT” because this seems to assume that we would want to form an organisation that existed seperatly from Respect and I would argue that leads us down all sorts of problematic “party within a party” roads.

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  19. I would argue that leads us down all sorts of problematic “party within a party” roads.

    I don’t see that – I think making it explicitly within RESPECT would make those problems worse.

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  20. “Adamski – I’m not trying to set up a straw man, rather I am trying to argue that the position of thinking that there is such a straightforward thing as “revolutionary strategy” and that it is definitionally superior to “reformist strategy” requires the assumption that Marxists have privileged access to the truth.”

    No one is making this claim but I think you are missing the point that as revolutionaries our criticisms of reformism are based on the evidence that reformists will compromise and invariably betray workers.
    There are reformists who are good activists but their politics will eventually lead workers to defeat. You seem to be suggesting that it’s all relative and there is good and bad in every political tradition so we can’t make any judgements. I was pursuaded to become a revolutionary rather than a reformist because it does make a difference to whether we win or lose in the class struggle.

    I’m not familiar with the case Andy raises but considering his politics, onesided approach and often misinformed views I would need to read all sides of the argument. After all, isn’t the right for all sides of the left to be heard being argued for here?

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  21. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Ray

    I am very happy have our relative credibilities judged on the facts of the CWU dispute, and my account of them. In factt I am not at all misinformed, and your weasel insinuation that I am lying rebounds on you, because I am 100% able to back up my account from sources within the CWU..

    As regards my ones-sided approach. I think that there is no hiding froom the truth and i am one sided against people who seek to supress the truth to bolster the jaded prestige of their central committees.

    Here is an article written by a leading grassroots activist in the CWU, about the recent dispute
    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1217

    That activist, who has written for PostWorker in the past, says:
    * Despite 5 members of the Postal Executive voting against the deal, only one, Dave Warren, was willing to campaign against it, with union President, Jane Loftus, being conspicuous by her silence”

    Jane Loftus, record is not in dispute, indeed Socialist Action member, Steve Bell, specifically defends jane Loftus’s failure to campign for a NO vote, read here:
    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1194

    And here is the link to the SWP’s own postworker paper from 2006:

    Click to access PW_2006-08.pdf

    Note that this publication doesn’t make a clear recommendation to reject “Shaping the Future”, and includes articles from Noman Candy from the postal exec, and Dave Wilshire from Bristol CWU both recommending acceptance.

    You are correc that all sides of the left should be heard on this isse, but the SWP’s discussion of and defence of what Jane Loftus did during the dispute has not been put in the public domain, or indeed within the SWP either.

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  22. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    I reject the claim that I’m being relativist, I do think that ultimately it is correct that we need a revolution and incorrect to think that we don’t.

    However your response assumes the very claim you say no one is making, namely that there is such a thing as the revolutionary position on X verses the reformist position on X (there isn’t revolutionaries can take lots of different positions as to can ‘reformists’) and that the revolutionary position will automatically be the best to win on X (it has no automatic priverlidge see point about council housing above) and not to sell out over X (doesn’t the Left-list councillor who joined the Tories speak against this?)

    Anyway even in the likely event that you disagree with this, would you care to engage in the point about caucusing and taking a line before the discussion has begun?

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  23. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    accidental smiley

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  24. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Ray

    Given that you have been arguing that an orientation on the rank and file and the workplace is central to building the left in the current period, isn;t it frankly incredible that you are not acquainted with the SWP’s involvement in the CWU dispute?

    Given that it throws light on the credibility or otherwise of the SWP’s apprach to workplpace politics/

    Did jane Loftus campaign for a NO vote or not?

    It is a simpe question.

    And if she did, then why does Steve Bell feel the need to defend the fact that she didn’t?

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  25. “Even if you reject this, how can you justify a “revolutionary” group making up its mind before entering into meetings and hearing the arguments put by others? If you don’t think this takes place how would you discribe causasing before Respect branch meetings and then mandating your members to all vote the way you decided?”

    I don’t think that there is anything wrong with people from any organisation meeting separately to thrash out a position and discuss how they are going to present their arguments at a meeting. In fact, it’s often very good if people who have a similar perspective meet and discuss these things. Quite often in a united front, I can predict in advance what the Socialist Party will argue, what the SWP will argue, what Mr X and Ms Y will argue etc etc so the question is how do you present your perspective to win over the non-alligned people.

    The only trouble is when people are robotic and dogmatic.

    Where I think common sense fails to prevail is when I was a member of the SWP sometimes we would caucas and agree collective positions over things which I didn’t see that it fundamentally mattered if comrades might disagree with each other.

    Another thing is that sometimes a suggestion from the SWP leadership would be mechanically applied with no taking into account of local dynamics.

    And in a couple of occasions I thought there should be a collective position but fundamentally disagreed with the one that was agreed!

    But I see nothing wrong with comrades meeting and having a caucas before a Respect meeting or any other campaign as long as common sense, humanity, flexibleness and non-dogmatism prevail.

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  26. “There are reformists who are good activists but their politics will eventually lead workers to defeat”

    Unlike those successful ‘revolutionaries’ who have always led the workers to victory. Please – some sense of historical perspective might not go amiss here. The victories of ‘revolutionary socialism’ are significantly less apparent than the successes of those terrible reformists. Or is there some actually-existing socialism to which I am not privy?

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  27. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    I actually agree with Adamski here.

    There is nothing wrong with caucusing, provided as he puts it “common sense, humanity, flexibleness and non-dogmatism prevail.”

    the danger is that any presumption against caucusing or even worse prohibitions against it in the constitution, will just be ignored anyway, but will create a climate of suspicion

    Comrades should all have the right to form platforms, if they wish. But we should expect that platforms remain committed to building Respect – or whichever other broad party they are part of.

    But equally, if people form a platform, then they should expect that those people who disagree with the political premises of that platform will argue against it, often quite sharply. that also is OK.

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  28. On the CWU issue: I don’t know the detail or have an opinion on the issue Andy raises, but I can’t help this observation:

    The SWP leadership highlighted a commitment to rank and filism as one of the red lines which Galloway was on the wrong side of. Sure, the argument went, he’s for trade unionism in general, but in a clash between the rank and file and the leaders, Galloway, being a Stalinist/reformist, will side with the leaders. So, the argument further went, he’s attacking OffU, because it is all about rank and file independence. (Everyone following so far? Good.)
    And a commitment to rank and filism is an SWP principle, thus we must do battle with the bureaucratic Galloway. So the CWU story brings a wry smile. Of course, Jane Loftus might have been right not to openly oppose the deal. But why was some dogma over rank and filism, which was not even operative last August, cause for breaking with Galloway. It wasn’t the real cause, of course. It was part of a fairystory.

    This isn’t simply an SWP problem. There are great dangers, given the state of the left, that all sorts of organisations take what were once useful insights or methods and turn them into eternal verities. Openness and a willingness to engage – which is not, repeat not, about ritual denounciation – are key to avoiding that. Structures need to enable that process. They become an impediment, in my view, if they obstruct it.

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  29. Just to return to the theme, caucasing is often good for younger and inexperienced members of a revolutionary party. Rather than just see their comrades present an argument at a meeting, they get a more in-depth explanation of the reasoning and logic of the argument and comrades get to exchange ideas and debate a position with each other.

    Also, if I’m going to go into a meeting to present an idea or propose something, often it is quite good to “sound it out “with other people in advance and see what they think..

    Let’s caucas!

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  30. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear, it is the mandating your members to take a certain line after the discussion between your Revolutionary group but before the discussion within the broad party that I object to not caucusing per say (though it can often be counter productive).

    To do so assumes that the revolutionaries can reach the correct answer BEFORE engaging in discussion with others not tightly aligned to their tradition.

    This was common practice in my experience as a member of the SWP, not very long ago, and unless I am mistaken still is SWP practice.

    Anyone willing to defend this practice?

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  31. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    Also why assume that discussion within the broad party meeting can’t involve “in-depth explanation of the reasoning and logic of the argument” and that it won’t give “comrades” a chance “to exchange ideas and debate a position with each other.”?

    My experience of caucuses generally is that they where hurried and that there was certainly never time to really question the line being pushed by the centre which inevitably you ended up adopting.

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  32. Caucusing is fine. Individuals/groups who claim that they don’t have a line and are open to ideas we should be wary of. In my experience in meetings (political and work) so-called “non-alligned” people very obviously have an agenda that they’ve discussed beforehand with others who think the same way as they do. No idea is original and we are all shaped by ideas that are already in existence. The difference is that some of us are more aware of this and/or more open about it.

    Andy, I’m in Unison and not in the CWU. I suppose I could research the example you gave but I can’t be bothered because, through experience, I’ve learnt not to trust your version of events. It would be much more informative if you gave a potted history of the main disagreements over this issue and then critiqued the decisions of the people you disagree with rather than just claiming they are wrong.

    For once I agree with Nas, it wasn’t Galloways fault we weren’t more successful in the unions. I’m sure Galloway would have loved more influence in this area. The point I’ve made is that because we unfortunately didn’t build strong enough roots in this area it destabalised Respect and it’s main preoccupation continued to be electorialism and community politics. That’s a very flimsy base to consolidate an alliance around because as soon as the vote begins to slump there isn’t a network to sustain the organisation.

    TLC, I would counterpose the successful revolution of 1917 in Russia that was led by revolutionaries with the failure of Allende’s reformist government in Chile. There is a wealth of evidence that demonstrates the failure of reformists to reform capitalism. I would be interested to hear of one example where reformism has achieved its goal. There are plenty of examples where reformists have betrayed workers in order to compromise with capitalism. The Labour Party being the most obvious example of where the legacy of over 100 years of failed reformism has led to neo-liberalism.

    That’s why it’s important that revolutionaries from different traditions learn to work together to assert our ideas in an alliance with reformists.

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  33. I’m with Joe here. The practice of caucusing, which the SWP practised in Respect was, in my opinion, hugely damaging.

    The best way for trust to break down is for debate to take place in secret away from the majority of members – who are then faced with a series of people parroting the same line but steadfastly refusing to engage with the actual points other people are making. It precisely creates a ‘party inside a party’ feeling.

    What is really destructive is when people turn up only when their is a dispute and vote through the party line and are never to be seen until the next time their hand is needed.

    Now, I agree with Andy that you can’t ban this practice – it would just happen informally at someone’s house, on the phone, down the pub, etc. And I should say that I would defend the right of people to meet in whatever manner they chose. Groups of people will meet together – even if they are not in any formal grouping – and especially when they feel an important issue is at stake.

    But – and this is the important bit – any organisation that wants to be part of a broader, larger body should be aware of how their actions are seen by those outside of their circle. Does your caucusing win you admiration or distrust, allies or enemies. If it’s the latter then you’d best be certain it’s necessary as any victory you win will turn out to be somewhat phyric in the end.

    (It should, of course, also be pointed out that caucusing in advance is no guarantee that you you will get it right – you are equally likely to end up all talking the same bollocks)

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  34. No, let’s not caucas – this was one of the major problems locally for Respect. Before every Respect meeting, SWP comrades would meet to ensure they all knew what the line was and how to present it. The place for debate and discussion should have been at the Respect meeting, but that was only ever somewhere for SWP to try and push its agenda while the rest of us struggled to get a hearing. Ok, ok, you will all say that won’t happen this time around … Like, there won’t be another ‘party within a party’ this time around … but I’m not so sure.

    Sorry to be so negative, but I can only talk from my own experience.

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  35. Ray – you seem to be deliberately mis-understanding my point. You seem to imply that reformists will always ‘betray’ the workers but that is simply bollocks. If you set out to make the world a bit better and you succeed a bit, how is that betrayal?

    A few examples to help you out – the NHS, universal education, meals on wheels, social services, my local swimming baths. These are not betrayals. They are advances which we anyone in their right mind would treasure or at least appreciate. Your dismissive words about ‘reformists’ just goes to show what a isolated bubble your politics exist in.

    Now of course, you,as a revolutionary, want to see revolutionary change is society – and for that those pesky reformists are no use at all. Fair enough. But you are not comparing like for like.

    But your choices of Chile and Russia are instructive. One, for you, was a success. One a failure. But both were drowned in blood. Neither give us the definitive answer about how to change the world, except perhaps in the negative. And neither particularly give us a guide to how to operate in the early 21st Century in Britain. The conditions of Russia in 1905 or 1917 do not exist in any country of city in the world today.

    If Russia was a flourishing socialist paradise you might have a point – but it isn’t. And your analysis about why it failed is only one among many. It may be right but you may equally be wrong on that.

    But surely you can see that when you start pontificating about the superiority of your ‘revolutionary’ methods there may well be the odd ‘reformist’ who thinks you are talking from a position of ‘belief’ rather than evidence – especially since your only evidence of ‘success’ is a 90 year old failure.

    Your Marxism is more akin to religion than science I’m afraid.

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  36. “To do so assumes that the revolutionaries can reach the correct answer BEFORE engaging in discussion with others not tightly aligned to their tradition.”

    Do you not formulate ideas before a meeting? For example if your job is up for review do you not have an opinion about it? When workers go on strike they have a list of demands and these demands are negotiated with employers at a meeting until a compromise it reached.

    Where there are going to be differences over strategy at a meeting then it’s important to have formulated a point of view beforehand. This doesn’t mean compromise can’t be reached. Caucusing may be annoying when your group doesn’t win the debate about strategy but it’s an essential part of debate.
    Believe me, having sat in meetings where revolutionaries have been in the minority it’s bloody annoying when a strategy is decided that I disagree with (and that I believe will lead to defeat) but I wouldn’t get rid of caucusing before meetings.

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  37. TLC, you are indulging in the relativism that Joseph rejected.

    I assume you agree with the definition that that reformists believe that capitalism can be reformed to bring about socialism and revolutionaries believe we need to overthrow capitalism? If so, then the only successful example of socialism is the Russian revolution. It existed briefly but unlike reformism it achieved its goal.

    When you refer to the reforms capitalism has made such as the NHS then this is quite a different issue. And not one exclusively brought about by reformists either. In fact, quite a few capitalists thought the NHS was a good idea too.

    When I refer to the betrayal of Labour I mean the numerous examples where defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory by these social democrats in a misguided (I’m being kind here) belief that managing the system was part of the parliamentary road to socialism.

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  38. Denise, there is nothing wrong with caucasing or factions. What you are forgetting is that the SWP were plotting behind the scenes to destroy Respect before it got away from them. You can be totally confident that everybody thinking about this rev regroup is 1000 per cent determined to build Respect. They have proved that in practise and whilst past practise is no absolute guarantee of future practise it is a very good indicator. They have staked their reputations on it to a large extent. They all want Respect to become greater than the sum of its parts. Believe me, these people didn’t leave the SWP to create an even smaller version of that stupid wrecking party. Nobody can forsee the vagiaries of politics in the manner of a medium of course but Respect is no stragner to factions to the right of its general aims. Witness the defecting councillors for instance who found their way to NL via LL.

    If a group emerges that wants to liquidate Respect then they will have to be fought politically whatever wing they are on. That is politics.

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  39. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Ray, why should tactical and strategic issues thrown up by the movement in the here and now casue people to line up for and against according to whether they are “revoutionaries” or “reformsists”?

    Back to the CWU: I am afraid it is rather unconvincing for you to talk in broad generalities,, and as soon as a real world example is put on the table, then throw you hands up in horror and claim ignorance.

    The facts are not actually in dispute.

    jane Loftus did not register her dissent from the majority decision of the postal exec who voted to accept the deal from Royal Mail that ended the national strike, even though she herself described the deal after the ballot had been completed as disastrous.

    She therefore debarred herself from campaiging against the deal while the ballot of members was in progress. And in fact she did not campaign NO. the only member of the postal exec who did so was the “reformist”, Dave warren.

    Socialist Worker meanwhile did oppose the deal and call for a No vote. Though I never saw an issue of Postwoker calling for a NO vote, and nor did any grassroots activist posties who I spoke to. There may ave been one produced, but of so it wasn’t distributed to psoties during the ballot period.

    Jane Loftus, an SWP member and President of the union said nothing at all during the balloting period.

    The argument – with which I disagree – which has been put by Steve Bell of the CWU, is that keeing her position as president of the union was more important than campaigning agianst the deal, (and Bell argues that the deal negotaited by Hayes and Ward was as good as anyone was going to get.)

    The relvence of al this is your claim that revoiutionaries offer the best strategy.

    Now in the CWU, it is very hard to see what the SWP’s strategy was.

    martin Smith has calimed that 20% of the CWU’s membership read Postworker – but no edition of postworker was issued during the last national strike?

    The SWP claims that is stands for accountability of all officers in the unions to the rank and file, but an SWP member seemingly prioritised keeping her position as union president as being more important than cmapigning to reject a disastrous deal – that was a big defeat for grassroots organisation in the post.

    Note that in the CWU constitution, Jane could have resigned from the Presidency and still kept her position on the postal exec. So having an SWP member in the president’s job is not that important, especially as she didnt use her position to oppose the shoddy deal.

    Now you say that you don’t trust my version of events, but this is simply a factual description of what happened, and is not in dispute by anyone.

    But there is so little accountability in your organisation, that there has been no debate about this.

    How can you expect union activist to take your Moonie like cult seriously when you prattle on about rank and fileism, when your industrial policy is not informed by any knowledge of what has actually happened?

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  40. Ray “If so, then the only successful example of socialism is the Russian revolution. It existed briefly but unlike reformism it achieved its goal.”

    No it didn’t. It failed. It certainly didn’t achieve socialism evcenin it’s brief existence. That’s not to say that at the time it wasn’t one of the high points of the fight for a better world.

    But it did fail and that failure was complete around 80 years ago.How much does it teach us today about reform or revolution. That reformists ‘betray’ and revolutions ‘fail’. Adding the ‘need for a revolutionary party’ as the make or break question to all the issues of the Twentieth century may be comforting – it may even be correct – but it doesn’t really address the failure of ‘revolutionaries’ over the last 90 years to achieve anything at all. It’s also rather abstract to the day to day issues affecting most people in Britain.

    And your rather dismissive references to ‘reformists’ as if they are simply wrong, misguided or inevitably going to ‘betray the workers’ isn’t really a particularly positive way of winning people to your ideas.

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  41. As well as coming into meetings with a mandate, being unwilling to budge as a result of democratic discussion (what most people here seem to interpret caucusing to mean), there is waiting for the branch/district organiser to give a lead and then coming in with 15 speeches, all saying the same thing, followed by uniformly voting everyone else down.

    So I agree with Andy and Dave, it isn’t caucusing per se that is the problem, it’s political culture and attitudes. The same bureaucratic ends can be achieved without caucusing, if you make the effort (or stay in the pub too long to have a caucus).

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  42. Richard Searle Avatar
    Richard Searle

    Rays comments remind me about what Tony Cliff used to say about about those who ‘parroted’ revolutionary phrases with the re-joiner that parrots have never led a revolution.

    It is the damage down by the practice of the SWP over the last period that puts those who would consider themselves revolutionaries in such a bad light with others in the movements. Its that legacy that has to be overcome

    The LCR speaker ot the Socialist Resistance event in London, noted the one of the key lessons the LCR has learnt in moving into the new anti capitalist party is how NOT to behave like the SWP did in Respect.

    The key thing for me is that Respect is also a laboratory for ideas and practices. That we learn from a variety of different traditions. We are open and rubust in democratic practices. I agree with Jo K on the points he makes.

    If I wanted politics as its been done over the last number of years, the same old, same old. I would have gone to Tesco and got it off the shelf

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  43. Very good and interesting discussion on the caucus problem – let’s hope that if any grouping within Respect gets off the ground, it will have this same discussion with the wider Respect membership!

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  44. “Rays comments remind me about what Tony Cliff used to say about about those who ‘parroted’ revolutionary phrases with the re-joiner that parrots have never led a revolution. ”

    Whenever ex-members don’t have an argument to back up their politics they resort to quoting soundbites from Cliff. It’s a shame you won’t embrace his politics as well.

    “…jane Loftus did not register her dissent from the majority decision of the postal exec who voted to accept the deal from Royal Mail that ended the national strike, even though she herself described the deal after the ballot had been completed as disastrous.”

    It’s telling how you phrase your condemnation of Loftus because she was actually one of the five including Dave Warren to vote “no” to the deal. Interesting that you single her out when those who accepted the deal are the very people I’ve been referring to.
    Rank and file activists rejected a proposal, “to act without the approval of Billy Hayes, Dave Ward and the executive where necessary”, because they had the constitutional right to campaign for a “No” vote. So the very people you claim we’re betrayed by Loftus did not want to act without the approval of the executive.
    You also fail to mention that many CWU activists supported the deal and only one third of branches rejected it.
    Anyhow, I’ll be sure to ask at Marxism about your claims as I’m pretty sure there is much more to this than you are stating.

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  45. “You also fail to mention that many CWU activists supported the deal and only one third of branches rejected it.”

    But surely the revolutionaries would want to be with the third who rejected the deal – especially since it was such a bad one – rather than the two thirds who accepted it.

    Still for someone who claimed earlier to know little of the CWU you suddenly have lots of information. Are you taking advice or do you caucus before blogging?

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  46. TLC – contributors are allowed to phone a friend and a questioning cadre is a good thing.

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  47. Ray probably caucuses before he decides which pizza to order ;o)

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  48. “Still for someone who claimed earlier to know little of the CWU you suddenly have lots of information. Are you taking advice or do you caucus before blogging?”

    TLC, that caucusing before blogging quip was pretty good. It made me laugh.
    My information came from a quick google about the pay deal. Rather than further speculation on my part I’m going to discuss this with CWU comrades at Marxism. I don’t profess to be a super cadre who knows everything about every campaign. However, I don’t see how Loftus voting “no” to the deal is a betrayal. The decision by the executive to accept the deal confirms what I’m arguing.

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  49. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    ray

    I am bewildered by what you are arguing here.

    Yes the postal exec voted to accept the deal, and five voted against, including Jane Loftus.

    But the deal had to be approved by a member’s ballot, and the exec were campaigning hard for a YES vote.

    I ohrase my criticism of jane Loftus very precisely because it is a question of the CWU rule book. She voted no on the postal exec, as you would expect her to, but in order to actively campaign amonst the mebership for a no vote she had to formally register her dissent from the majority and intent to campaign against it under rule.

    She did not do so. Two other members of the postal exec, neither one of them “revolutionaries” did register their dissent, and one of them Dave Warren did actively campaign.

    As the deal was disastrous for the grassroots membership of the CWU, there needed to be a serious NO campaign. The No campaign was hampered by two factors in particular – as I understand it – one that nearly all the London branches recommended acceptance it, partly becasue out of loyalty to Dave Ward; the other factor is that most of the experienced activists who were opposed too the deal (and I won’t name them for obvious reasons) did not hold branch officer positions – so it was hard for the No campaign to win branch recommendstions for a no vote.

    I actually don’t understand Ray’s point here:

    Rank and file activists rejected a proposal, “to act without the approval of Billy Hayes, Dave Ward and the executive where necessary”, because they had the constitutional right to campaign for a “No” vote. So the very people you claim we’re betrayed by Loftus did not want to act without the approval of the executive.

    If he got this info by googling – perhaps he can provide a link to give this more context.

    the question is of course that the No campaign would have recived a very serious boost had Jane Loftus actively campaigned – as a postal exec member – for a no vote.

    She didn’t campaign, or speak against the deal between the date of the vote on the postal exec that accepted the deal, and the ballot being closed.

    So the “betrayal” as you so colourfuly phrase it (I wouldn’t go further than describing it as a mistake) was not on her vote on the exec, but that she didn’t campaign for a no vote with the memebrship.

    I see that in Ray’s understanding it is the vote on the exec that counts, and the ballot of the members was secondary or irrelevant; but in the CWU’s rule book the deal had to be ratified by ballot.

    Most leftt activists were admantly against the deal, but were struggling in the ballot with the fact that the exec were activley campaigning for a Yes vote, so even posties who were inclined to reject had no belief that there would have been a viable strategy to win the strike if they voted no. So the yes vote was partly a result of confusion and demoralisation.

    In such circumstances, you would expect an SWP member who was president of the union to throw their weight behind an active No campaign, and argue that the strike could still be won.

    Now I am a relativeley cnservative soul, and Iistill think the strike could have been won at that stage. Indeed, Socialist Worker was arguing for a No vote.

    What I find disturbing here is the Moonie like cult mindset from Ray, in how he respnds to criticism.

    In th past it would have been an automatic part of IS politics that the rank and file was key to industrial politics, and someone only holds union office in so far as it helps build grassroots militancy.

    It is clear that jane Loftus – either with or without the approval of SWP industrail organiser Chrllaie Kimber – decided that staying in post as president was more importnat than throwing her weight behind the no campaign.

    What you would expct from someone schooled in IS politics is simply to say that Jane Loftus made a istake.

    But what you would expect from a brainwashed cultist is to abandon core political principles in order to defend the prestuge of the party. This is what Ray does here.

    he uses the fact that two thirds of branches voted to accept the deal as an excuse for an SWP executive memebr not campaigning for a no vote.

    He used some guff about constitutional rughts for lay members to campagn for a no vote as an excuse for the fact that an SWP executive memebr did not campaign for a no vote.

    And worst of all, ray uses the fact that Jane voted no on the exec to say that she had no responsibilty to argue for a no vote froom the membership. Since when in the IS tradiation did the rank and file membership give up the ghost because the leaders of the union vote not to fight?

    It is clear that ray is prepared to abandon the core principles of the SWp’s own industrail strategy in order to defend the leading members of the party from cricticsm.

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  50. The SWP had a purpose which was not coterminous with Respect. That’s fair enough. But they refused to allow Respect to develop precisely because of that. How is that to be avoided – that’s one question. A more fundmental one is: what does a Marxist make of Britain in 2008 and how it got here.

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  51. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Perhaps, i should make clear what Jane needed to do.

    Once the vote on the exec had decided to recommend accapetance of the deal, she needed to formally register her dissent from the majority decision under rule.

    She would probably have had to resign from the presidency of the union, but under rule she would still have been a member of the postal exec.

    (I know that dave Hayes and Bily Hayes were very opposed to jane Loftus giving up the Presidency, and I surmise that this is what swayed her not to)

    As someone who was still a meber of the exec, and who had resigned as president of the union in order to campaign for a no vote who would have had a lot of authority.

    She should have issued a clear fighhting statement of rejection of the deal explaining why it was a bad deal. She could then have toured the sorting offices, branches, etc, arguing with people to vote no.

    Post worker, and other grassroots militants could have used leaflets, and of course there was a big audience on the Royal Mail Chat web-site, to spread her message.

    This is what I would expect an SWP natinal exec memebr to do in these circumstances – a still winnable strike, high stakes, militants around the country looking for a lead.

    In the old days, i expect ray wuld have agreed with all this. But now, the vital imperative is not to win a national strike and build grassroots trade unionism, these are entirely secondary consideratiosn compared to the need to defned the prestige and reputain of John Rees, and his great revolutionary leadership.

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  52. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    What is interesting here:

    Rank and file activists rejected a proposal, “to act without the approval of Billy Hayes, Dave Ward and the executive where necessary”, because they had the constitutional right to campaign for a “No” vote. So the very people you claim we’re betrayed by Loftus did not want to act without the approval of the executive.
    You also fail to mention that many CWU activists supported the deal and only one third of branches rejected it.

    Is that ray actualy seems o be arguing in favour of the deal, on the basis that the exec had recommended acceptance.

    After all when the mighty leaders have spoken, and recommended acceptance, why would militants want the members of the union to vote to reject?

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  53. “What I find disturbing here is the Moonie like cult mindset from Ray, in how he respnds to criticism.”

    What I find disturbing is your arrogant and bullying behaviour toward someone who has admited that he doesn’t know all the facts and has said he will get back to you on this issue. The fact that you accuse me of making claims that I haven’t made only emphasises your cynical and opportunistic style of debating. If this is an example of the new fraternal form of debate in Renewal then you’re welcome to it.

    I’ll be enjoying Marxism for the next five days so don’t hold your breath waiting for my reply, Andy (on second thoughts perhaps you should.)

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  54. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Ray,

    Given the fact that you originally dismissed whole example of the CWU dispute by casting aspersions upon the reliability of my information, then I feel a little exasperation on my part is understandable.

    But you didn’t just say you didn’t know the facts and would get back to me, you also provided a political justification for jane Loftus, based upon the fact that she voted no on the exec itself, and some confused argument about a group of rank and file activists having the constitutioal right to campaign no.

    All of this is relevent to your main argument that “revolutionaries” are always more reliable than “reformists”

    What is cult like in this behaviour is:

    i) there was no debate or sharing of information within the SWP about the largely awful intervention they made in the CWU dispute – one of the most significant national strikes, and in the industry where the SWP has the most infleunce – (arguing it was all about pay when most militants understood it was about deregulation and working conditions, arguing naively for the dispute to be linked with the PCS by coordinated action from the tops of the unions even though the time scales of the disputes hardly overlaped,and Billy Hayes had no intention of doing so, issuing no edition of Postworker during the dispute,, generally giving left cover to Billy Hayes)

    ii) despite not having had that discussion in the SWP, you still assume that the “revolutinaries” had the correct tactics. And in order to justify that position you say “You also fail to mention that many CWU activists supported the deal and only one third of branches rejected it.”

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  55. “I know that dave Hayes and Bily Hayes were very opposed to jane Loftus giving up the Presidency, and I surmise that this is what swayed her not to”

    Yeah, in the union bureaucracy you can be swayed towards all sorts of things by the leadership.

    I’m glad the SWP taught me that you need a solid rank and file network to stop revolutionaries being compromised when they reached positions of power – like, say, the presidency of a union.

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  56. Comment on SU by Andy:

    “It is worth saying that none of this is a personal criticism of Jane Loftus as a person. Prioritisng a position in the union over the industrial action is a question of political priorities, and I am sure that Jane sincerely and on principle believes she made the correct political judgement.”

    In your opinion she made the wrong decision. You are arguing over the issue of tactics. You believe that Loftus should have sacrificed her position to campaign for a no vote and she believed this wasn’t
    necessary. The basis of your arguement is that if Loftus had sacrificed her position the no campaign would have won but all the facts say otherwise.

    Let’s deal with Andy’s lies made in the post above:

    i) The SWP has never claimed the strike was just about pay. We were against the deal and supported action. Your slur that the SWP was providing left cover for Hayes is quite honestly disgusting and an insult to all the SWP activists who fought hard for the strike and for a no vote.

    ii) The only thing I assumed is that you were up to your usual anti-SWP attacks and have been proved correct. I never claimed that revolutionaries always get it right. In fact, I make a point of agreeing with Joseph that revolutionaries can learn from activists from other traditions. But that is in the world of fraternal politics which you are obviously hostile to.

    You have used the postal workers dispute to attack the SWP but have little to say about the executive members who pushed the deal through. They are not revolutionaries and fall into the reformist camp. So are you saying that SWP “revolutionaries” had the wrong tactics and the reformists who sold out the strike were correct?

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  57. Ray: leave the rancour to one side. I for one did find it surprising that the SWP did not put out a single issue of Postworker during the dispute. Why spend all those years building up its profile only not to throw it into the battle when it occurs?

    Please don’t respond that this is some “anti-SWP” diatribe. It’s a genuine question. Does Postworker still exist?

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  58. “So are you saying that SWP “revolutionaries” had the wrong tactics and the reformists who sold out the strike were correct?”

    Ray: you are infantilising the debate with comments like this. The point is that the people who fronted up the campaign for a no vote were (and I don’t think this is disputed) not self-avowed revolutionaries. Why didn’t revolutionaries step up to the mark?

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  59. “Your slur that the SWP was providing left cover for Hayes is quite honestly disgusting and an insult to all the SWP activists who fought hard for the strike and for a no vote. ”

    So that doesn’t include the CWU president who didn’t fight hard for a No vote then?

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  60. “Why didn’t revolutionaries step up to the mark?”

    They did and if you and TLC had a clue about what goes on in the CWU you wouldn’t be parroting Andy’s slurs so I’ll leave you to carry on with your irrelevant little witchhunt.

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  61. Ah – so now to criticise the President of a major trade union for failing to campaign against a deal which she voted against is a witch hunt. I trhink Jane has generally done a good job in the CWU but I think she made a mistake over the ballot campaign. Postal workers I know think she made a mistake.

    Now if we are no longer allowed to criticise a trade union official what’sw left of any chance to create a genuine rank and file movement. Honestly, Ray – your loyalty to every twist, turn and ‘tactic’ of the SWP is so blind as to make your ‘revolutionary politics’ utterly irrelevant..

    Anywat, enjoy Marxism.

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  62. TLC: I, for one, am rather pleased that Ray is saying that honest criticism of a senior union official for not openly opposing a bad deal is a witchhunt.

    Leave aside whether she was right or wrong in the decisions she made, what we are being told here is that she is above criticism because she is a member of the SWP and to criticise her is tantamount to trying to drive revolutionaries out of the union.

    This, more than anything you or I could have written, betrays the mindset in the SWP which could lead hundreds other seemingly rational people to sign a document claiming they were being witchhunted and to support the suppression of dissent in their own party, including through expulsions, in order to oppose said witchhunt.

    We now have it confirmed just what the average SWP member thinks constitutes a witchhunt.

    Apart from anything else, what an insult to your own members who are being sacked from work or expelled from unions in very worrying numbers.

    You’re doing them no favours.

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