Alan Thornett has written this document as a contribution to the discussion between former members of the SWP, members of Socialist Resistance and others who are looking to combine to create a new revolutionary organisation. Meetings are planned for December in London and Manchester. If you want to find out more or get involved you can get contact details by visiting http://revolutionaryregroupment.wordpress.com/.

You will need to provide an e mail address and a phone number. More documents will be issued soon.

Since the rise of new Labour the building of an effective broad alternative to its left has been a central task for revolutionary socialists. Far-left organisations in their existing form were not, and are not, adequate to address the opportunities this situation opens up — although they potentially have a crucial role to play in building a broad alternative capable of tackling the crisis of working class representation.

Respect remains the most important initiative towards a broad party of this kind in England. Its validity is that is the only organisation on the left with significant bases of electoral support to have the possibility of winning Westminster seats as well as seats in local government. This was reaffirmed in the London Assembly elections in the spring when its results were qualitatively different to those of the Left List or other left organisations.

Respect remains fragile and vulnerable, however, and its long-term existence has not yet been secured. The fact that it has survived the split last November, however, was a remarkable achievement given the size and organising ability of the SWP who initiated the split. This is a tribute to the genuine nature of what Respect had achieved and the resonance it has in some important sections of the working class. In fact it has survived the split far better than the SWP’s Left Alternative, which is now politically narrow and electorally irrelevant.

With the onset of the credit crunch we are now facing the task of building Respect with the political landscape dramatically changed. We are witnessing the most profound crisis of the capitalist system since the 1 1930s. The economic crisis has intersected with the ecological crisis. The neo-liberal project of endless deregulation and wild speculation is in tatters. Parts of the banking system have collapsed and large sections have been nationalised by the US neo-cons and by new Labour in Britain. And this crisis is now relentlessly translating into mass unemployment, home repossessions and sharply increased levels of poverty with all the social consequences involved. The ruling class are absolutely determined that it will be working class and the poorest in society who will pay for the crisis – both at the national and the international level.

This situation opens up big new opportunities for the left. People are looking for alternatives. Marx is back in vogue — all is forgiven! A wide-ranging debate has opened up about the viability of the capitalist system, around Keynesian economics and the merits of public ownership and control. But there are many dangers present as well as these opportunities. The far right, in the form of the BNP, will attempt to capitalise on the disillusionment of the poorest sections of the working class as the crisis hits. The response of the unions in defending their members against these conditions will be a crucial factor in how all this develops. At the moment the signs are not good.

The onset of the crisis has also transformed the immediate electoral prospects of new Labour. It has left the Tories with little to say and has thrust Brown into the limelight. We have seen a mini Brown bounce, which could continue until the effects of the crisis begin to hit home in a big way. From a position where a reactionary Tory government looked a certainty Labour is back in the running — at least for the moment.

The Brown leadership, however, will not conclude that the shift to the right of the past ten years was wrong and that they should tack back towards the left. Any measures they are forced to take to plug the holes in the sinking ship will be within the politics of new Labour if they have their way. If they are forced to introduce certain Keynesian economic measures under the pressure of the crisis they will do so whilst maintaining their right wing stance on everything else.

At the same time the Tory party has shifted to the right over the past year and the Liberal Democrats have followed them. They are now to the right of new Labour on the economy – they continue to oppose the nationalisation of bankrupt financial corporations – and they have returned to the Tory mainstream on immigration and the environment.

Despite the new opportunities which have opened up for the left, the building of a left alternative to new Labour remains a difficult task. The objective situation is there as it is across Europe, but the subjective factor is weak. The left is dispersed around in a wide range of organisations, campaigns, tendencies and movements – including the tens of thousands of people who see themselves as part of the left but who are not ‘in’ something other than perhaps their union or local campaigns.

Respect is therefore right to seek to be the catalyst for a wider framework for united left rather than the finished article. This was the theme of the conference last November and it was reaffirmed at this years conference on October 2 25th. This means keeping an open mind as to how and when the opportunity for a broader and more representative initiative can emerge. That’s why we have argued for a high priority in developing better relations with, for example, the RMT leadership, and why we supported the tactic of trying to develop a broader left slate for the GLA elections. The Convention of the Left was a part of this process as is the initiative called by Bob Crow and others, which also took place on October 2 25th, and the initiative for a broad campaign on fuel poverty. We should continue to defend this approach.

In order to be a catalyst for something new, however, Respect has to build its self in the here and now. It has to expand its influence by becoming a more effective voice for those hit hardest by the crisis. They are in any case Respect’s natural constituency and they include the inner city areas where Respect already has its strongest electoral support.

This, however, means building Respect as a political party — not as a coalition or network. The idea that Respect can develop as a loose network around its principal electoral bases or with a minimal structure and democratic decision-making process is false. The chances of members making a long-term commitment to Respect in the absence of structures which will give them a say when they want it is remote. Democracy is not something which only applies when a small party becomes a big party. It is crucial to building any radical party of the left from the word go.

The importance of the electoral bases Respect has won over the past four years amongst Pakistani and Bangladeshi migrant communities in East London and South Birmingham is self-evident. No other section of the left has been able to do this. But Respect needs to use the strength of these bases to build itself as a national organisation otherwise it will disappear completely at its fi
rst major electoral set back.

We have argued against counterposing these two tasks and we should continue to do so. Respect needs to consolidate its influence in its key bases in East London and South Birmingham and at the same time building outwards to make itself into more of a national organisation. To retain a Westminster seat would be a major achievement to extend it to several seats would be huge. This means that Respect as a whole has a responsibility to maximise support for these constituencies both in terms of building those branches of the organisation locally and in the election campaign itself. At the same time Respect should stand candidates in selected other seats, particularly where this is a part of building a local branch and extending its influence in the local community. This approach was endorsed by the recent conference.

Defending Respect’s existing Westminster seat is very important. But is it the totally make or break issue it is sometimes presented? It is always a big issue once you have elected representatives. You have to defend the seats you hold or you have an electoral setback. But no left party can guarantee to win seats irrespective of the political conditions of the day. And the conditions of the next general election may well be more difficult than the last. The war has largely faded from the scene and a close fight between Labour and the Tories and there may be a squeeze on small parties. Winning seats cannot therefore be the only measure of success. In the last general election Salma Yaqoob failed to win her seat but she demonstrated very clearly that she had a major base in South Birmingham, which was then reflected in local government success.

The electoral field is very important and should not be surrendered to our opponents. It is a crucial way of making a connection to those who have been deserted by new Labour and those in the unions and in oppressed communities who are looking for a way forward. The importance of having an MP and councillors is obvious. But to reduce Respect to an electoral organisation, or even and organisation principally concerned with the electoral field, would be a big mistake. This was the problem with the SWP approach.

Our objective must be to build an organisation which on the one hand fights elections but on the other responds to the direct needs of the working class and the oppressed. An organisation which takes the trade unions seriously, which is in the heart of the anti-war movement which is in the campaigns defending civil rights, opposing discrimination, defending the environment, migrants and asylum seekers, the NHS and the public sector. Our parliamentary and local government representation needs to be integrated into this perspective.

This means defending and building Respect as a pluralist organisation with the right of platform for political currants within it. Such an approach should not be seen as a concession to whichever grouping might want to organise within it or a time-consuming luxury at conference but a normal and essential part of its democracy and its effectiveness. It strengthens the organisation as a whole and facilitates its development. It creates a transparent situation in which different strands of opinion can be democratically expressed. The SLP scenario must continue to be rejected at all costs. Respect has always recognised the right of platform, as with the Respect party Platform — though this is not adequately integrated into its constitution.

A new left party also has to develop a political line along with its own policy base and political culture. You can’t build a party which presents itself as a political alternative at governmental level, on minimalist policies. It would have no credibility at all. Why would anyone vote for it?

It has been argued at various times that Respect should be simply a Peace and Justice party. Peace and justice are indeed incredibly important but not enough in themselves to constitute a political alternative. Liberal Democrats are in favour of peace and Justice and many of them would have no problem with anti-racism, anti-war and even anti-neoliberalism. And what would be the point of doing so? There is no point in building an alternative, which is not in the end an alternative.

Such a stance would be to the right of the Greens who have a comprehensive programme stretching from the renationalisation of the railways to the defence of civil and human rights and opposition to discrimination as well as being strong on the environment. They are the most left-wing green party in Europe, and there is a very good reason why. It is because the only space they can occupy is to the left of Labour. For Respect to place itself to the right of them and not much to the left of the Liberal Democrats would be a big mistake

The alternative to Respect relating to the left and the unions and others on the left, we are often told, is community work — which we should see as our overwhelming priority. And indeed it is extremely important. It would be wrong, however, to counterpoise trade union struggle to work in the communities or vice-versa. Community activists are often active members of their unions and there are many instances where trade union and community struggles naturally merge and overlap. Such interaction only makes the struggle stronger.

The issue at stake here is not whether community-based struggles and politics are important but whether such struggles have now replaced the organised working class as an agency for progressive social change. Community action, of course, is as much a part of the struggle of the working class as workplace
action. And many of the big struggles of the future will be around environmental issues. But that is a different matter from the implication that the organised workers movement no longer has a key role to play as an agency for social change even if this is alongside other forms of organisation and action.

Trade union struggles in Britain, however, remain at a very low and defensive level. The defeats inflicted on the trade unions the 1980s have not been reversed and the employers are dominant in both the public and private sectors. This underlines the urgency for a new party to the left of Labour since it is very hard to regenerate the unions, reignite militant trade unionism, and reproduce militant activists, without a political dimension to that process. The Labour Party was formed in order to provide political representation to an emerging trade union movement. Today the issue of political representation needs to go hand in hand with more effective shop floor organisation and resistance to the employers.

Building Respect, or any such broad party, however, is a difficult and complicated business and revolutionary socialists need to be organised as a platform or tendency within if they are to play the most effective role possible. This is not just the best way for revolutionary socialist, and other with a distinct political view, to function it is the best way to build such a party. It creates an open and transparent situation which promotes confidence in the organisation and allows political development to take place.
Revolutionary socialist have distinct political views on British and world politics which go beyond the programme which it would be right for Respect to adopt as a broad organisation, at least at this stage of development, and this should be clear and open to all.
This dies not imply any kind of permanent block-voting caucus in meetings of the broad organisation. Other than on issues where class lines are crossed or the future of the broad organisation d
irectly jeopardised revolutionary socialists should participate in the debates and discussions of the organisation with an open mind and responsive to the arguments put forward.

Following the conference on October 25th we are in a new phase of building Respect — though many of the old debates will continue. The last year has been one of holding the organisation together in the wake of the split — which was extremely difficult and never certain. The name had to be sorted out and it took a long time. The run up to the conference involved a debate about the character of the conference which was in effect a debate about the character of the organisation. The conference was very successful under difficult circumstances and demonstrated the ongoing viability of Respect as a project — whilst seeing itself as a component of something new which could emerge in the medium term.

The conference adopted a number of very good resolutions, including on the economic crisis and how to respond to it which now needs to be implemented in order to take the organisation forward. It rightly put nationalisation and re-nationalisation at the centre of any response to the crisis alongside public works programmes with particular reference to renewable energy sources. We as a current should do everything possible to facilitate this and to build the organisation through its next stage of development.

The European elections are likely to be the next electoral challenge at the national level — unless Brown goes for a spring election which is possible but not likely. And the case for Respect standing in selected constituencies in the Euro elections is very strong. The BNP is a real threat in these elections in some constituencies and given the expected collapse of the UKIP vote they stand the chance of a seat. They will aim at alienated and deprived sections of the working class who are vulnerable to them in the present circumstances and the presentation of a socialist, class based, alternative for them to connect with in such circumstances is particularly important. Respect is best placed to do this and should see it as a priority.

104 responses to “Building Respect in the new political landscape – a document for the revolutionary regroupment discussion”

  1. how utterly depressing.

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  2. I agree with Andy’s comment on Respect Renewal – “How utterly depressing”!

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  3. Has anything actually been learned from 2004 to 2008, or do we have to have a re-run?

    “the Greens who have a comprehensive programme stretching from the renationalisation of the railways to the defence of civil and human rights and opposition to discrimination as well as being strong on the environment. They are the most left-wing green party in Europe”

    “the case for Respect standing in selected constituencies in the Euro elections is very strong.”

    If Respect manages 1.2% again in the North West region (which was the same share of the vote as the Socialist Labour Party gained in 1999), those 1.2% of votes don’t help to stop the BNP, they actually make it easier for the BNP to get elected. The same goes for any region in which the BNP is challenging.

    I can only speak for the North West region, but there will be local elections and a general election within 12 months of the Euros. The threat from the BNP is huge this time and some of the pragmatism shown by London Respect this year in the mayoral contest would be welcomed.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/17/greenpolitics.thefarright

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  4. And I agree with Alan’s verdict on on Comrade Adamski- “politically narrow and… irrelevant”

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  5. ‘Respect remains the most important initiative towards a broad party of this kind in England’

    What fantasy world do these people live in? Not one mention of the CNWP, now signed up to by 4000 people. And is electoralism the be all and end all now? If I was in RR I wouldn’t put all my eggs in that particular basket because the brutal truth is you’ll lose Bethnal Green and most councillors at the next election(s).

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  6. That Renewal is in such a mess, or that they are clinging to their hyperinflated expectations.(I see mark anthony france said yesterday that the RR NC had had a morbid assessment of the Mile End result. Very little sign of any change in perspective here).

    “the right of platform for political currants”

    Can’t someone cheer you up with some Bun jokes?

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  7. Doug-n if you bother to read the whole thing, and I know it’s an effort you will find the following statement:

    “But to reduce Respect to an electoral organisation, or even and organisation principally concerned with the electoral field, would be a big mistake. ”

    But everything about the discussion of RR members about their future prospects is like two bald men arguing over a comb.So I think your criticism is perfectly justified. You’re also right about the brutal truth about the next election: the anti-war mood focused against the Labour government which got Galloway elected is no longer such a force, and their attempts to replace that with communalist support was lways going to be ineffective when parties of power are better at that particular game.Rather than worrying too much about them ignoring the CNWP, be glad that you didn’t get involved with these inopportunists. If Thornett’s article is anything to go by they are still going to the RR is a runner at the next election, though I could see reality biting at any time.
    Sit long enough of the riverbank and the bodies of your enemies will float by.

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  8. “This was reaffirmed in the London Assembly elections in the spring when its results were qualitatively different to those of the Left List or other left organisations.”

    How absurd. The results show Respect’s vote almost halved, falling behind such luminaries as the BNP, the Christian People and an anti-congestion charge rabble.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Assembly_election,_2008#Top-up_.28Additional_Member_System.29_results

    And the Greens, a left organisation which makes actual change, rather than sitting around and splitting all the hairs on Trotsky’s ass, got almost four times your vote and infinitely more seats, i.e. 2.

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  9. Andy:

    What parts of this argument do you find depressing? The text is somewhat rambling and poorly structured. It also seems to be partially pitched against other views in Respect but it doesn’t outline those views. Between those two factors it isn’t clear to me as an outsider that clear what the central arguments are.

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  10. A message that should be familiar to regular visitors is that absolutely no one involved in this process sees Respect as anything other than one part of an eventual larger left of Labour party. We have views on who might be involved in this but no way of knowing who will end up in it. Certainly there is a sufficient agreement to to have a dialogue with the CNWP and who can guess what will happen to some of the Labour left after the next election? It could include some who are disillusioned with what Green parties generally do after getting a sniff of power.

    On the other hand this does not stop us from trying to build Respect. This will be apparent at the Climate Change demo as we resisted the temptation to hold a SR event on the same day. At the same time it is necessary and possible to build a revolutionary current which is fully supportive of an organisation like Respect but which has a distinctive approach of its own.

    I don’t find these a very complicated couple of ideas and it’s odd that so many choose to struggle to grasp them even if they exercise their right to disagree with them.

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  11. ” who can guess what will happen to some of the Labour left after the next election?”

    I guess that none of them will join Respect, and noone will think that Respect is a relevant player in any left of Labour organisation. I don’t think that people are struggling to grasp your ideas, it is that they disagree with you about what respect is and where it is going. You suggest it is some broad based organisation with a radical left core, in reality it’s what’s left when the socialists leave.

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  12. Irish Mark P

    I may write a response to this document,

    but for me the big problem is that the ISG and their freinds have an over-inflated and exaggerated view of the national significance of Respect, and also grossly underestimate the political gap between the overwhelmingly white, middle aged Trotskyite activists, and the actual basis of Respect’s electoral support.

    Respect is currently a troubled organisation. it has a paper that is tilted far too much towards the leftist perspectives of the ISG, and there was a substantial row about the timing and nature of conference, over which the ISG had a pyrrhic victory in that they got their way, but only at the expense of intransigently railroading something through that really really pissed off a lot of people and narrowed the political basis of Respect.

    What is completely lacking in Alan’s article is an assessment of the current politicall situation, and a balance sheet of Respect’s strengths and weaknesses. he also misrepresents the alternative political views within Respect.

    Currently the big assets of Respect are Salma and George, in particular the largely intact prestige and acheivements of the electoral base in Birmingham; and the enormous profile that george has – which is very positve with some sections of the population.

    I woould argue that for a very small organisation that is clinging on by its fingertips to political relevance then we have to leverage off our strengthcs. Consistent community based campaigning in the areas we have support, and also raise the political profile by promoting our assets : George, Salma, Ken Loach, et al. This also means – by necessaity – basing the organisation largely on the more broad left politics of George and Salma.

    Quite simply the next general election IS make or break, beacsue Respect’s electoral base will not sustain itself if it is seen as an inneffective protest vote.

    Allan Thornett’s perspective seem to be to ignore the extremely narrow regional and political current basis that Respect has, and try to project itself as a traditional far left group of national importance. But why on earth would anyone join respect on that basis? And surely if this miniscule “party” adopts more left wing politics that George, Salma, or the existing electoral base is comfortable with, then that is a problem?

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  13. “Quite simply the next general election IS make or break, beacsue Respect’s electoral base will not sustain itself if it is seen as an inneffective protest vote.”

    My. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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  14. The best article wrtitten about Respect and the way foward for some time. We could do with more open dabate from our current leaders of Respect so that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.

    A welcome positive contribution after the somewhat over negative assessment expressed at the last Respect National council.

    I am not a member of Socialist Resistance but there is little I disgaree with in this excellent article which tries to address some of the current issues both within and outside Respect rather than avoiding them which has occured too much in the past at national level within Respect

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  15. Peter Cranie makes some very important points above – and it should be pointed out that this article is Alan’s opinion – not the agreed electoral strategy of Respect which will be discussed at our next NC January.

    In the meantime, we should get together in the North West to discuss these issues. I had hoped to have a discussion at the Convention this weekend but since that’s been postponed till January 24th we should perhaps arrange another meeting.

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  16. Interesting this thread appears to reveal a very significant dfference of opinion which can be healthy if handled correctly. Andy appears to be arguing to tack to the center ground of the left and this would appear to be consistent with his psoitions of late such as getting rid of No Platform for Nazis and supporting the bailout of the bankers and arguing it would not effect workers at all. I also note that Mark Anthony France who is a national Exec member is trying to get an intervention on a Baby P demo and himself is calling for social workers to be sacked in Haringay and that they are overpaid and don’t work hard enough.
    If this is the trajectory of Respect then I cannot see how the ISR can stomach that sort of politics.
    I am however interested how the ISR railroaded a policy through conference, as I understand that it was supposed to be a very good conference and democratic and open.
    What was the arguement about the timing and nature of the conference?

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  17. jack: your skidmarx are showing.

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  18. Out of interest Clive do you agree with Alan’s position?

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  19. Jack, I can’t answer that as there are many positions within Alan’s piece. So I can’t say Yes or No as I’m not sure to which position you are referring. I think it needs more than a little subtlety to explain my differences – as there a formally parts that I agree with and other areas -including those that are more implied rather than explicit that I don’t. I may think about writing a more detailed reply.

    I do believe however, is that any differences are manageable within a broad party if handled openly and politically. After all if we all agreed we wouldn’t be a broad party at all, just a mini-version of many other left groups.

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  20. Jack – what is ISR?

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  21. It is sort of amusing that Andy appears to be arguing that the ISR are arguing for respect to become a socialist organisation and avoid being pulled to the right. He then seems to be saying they are unfair and railroading things through the conference and unfairly winning an arguement about the timing and nature of the conference! Is he saying Russian Dolls, well sort of.. it all sounds familiar lol
    I get the impression from Andy’s piece that tears are really going to flow soon inside Respect. As Andy says the ISR think they are a national party and they are not, its according to him hanging on by its fingertips. Hardly the impression given by the ISR .

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  22. ah Sorry ISG the inital thing was never my strong point lol

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  23. what were the arguements regarding the conference?

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  24. sorry to hog this but are Respect going on the Baby P demo? it seems not tenable for socialists to march demanding the sacking of social workers and backed up by murdoch etc.

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  25. Jack – if you want to troll here please raise your game.

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  26. I’d have to go along with Andy to a large extent apart from the `depressing’ biit. I’m not in the ISG so I wouldn’t presume to tell them what to do but I think where Respect doesn’t have a strong electoral base which is mainly in the minority communities then their members should be in the Labour Party intervening in the left there. Turning Respect into a national organisation is not a realistic proposition certainly not now and probably never. We should have the perspective that after the next gen election there may well be a government of national unity or emergency headed by the NL clique with Tories and a serious reliance on the police. Under these circumstances the left of labour may either split off or be forced out.. Respect should then be looking to disolve itself into this de facto natioinal organisation. Adding its pool of one maybe two hopefully three MPs to those of the Labour Lefts after ensuring it takes an anti-war position. To keep Respect as a seperate organisation under those circumstances as some kind of minorities party would not be good and would not be supported by the minoriity communities whose main concern has been for Respect to take the anti-war message mainstream.

    In Respect, the ISG should never dilute its programme but on the other hand it shouldn’t try to impose it on others (and I’m not saying they are doing that cos I don’t think they are) as one practical step forward is more important than 10 programmes as Marx said. It is a coalition after all.

    As for the Respect paper I do think it should be the instrument of the NC as a whole and the ISG should have its own seperate organ to use both in Respect and in its other work. If, for instance, the CPB joined Respect it is most likely that it would, whilst contributing to the Respect paper, maintain the Morning Star as its own factional paper and why not.

    The other thing missing from the article is any mention on what should be the attitude of Respect to the election of a Labour Government. It needs to make absolutely clear that it is for a Labour victory at the next gen election. That doesn’t mean however that it couldn’t perhaps find a constituency where an ISG member could stand for Respect in opposition to one of the more hated NL MPs and I would expect the rest of Respect to work as hard for their election as the ISG will work for Salma and George’s election.

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  27. “That doesn’t mean however that it couldn’t perhaps find a constituency where an ISG member could stand for Respect in opposition to one of the more hated NL MPs”

    Of course that would be one where the chances of winning are like winning the jackpot on the national lottery.

    “I would expect the rest of Respect to work as hard for their election as the ISG will work for Salma and George’s election.”

    Hmm. Yes.
    If Liam won’t answer any of jack’s questions, I suppose I won’t get one to the perennial “How can one tell the difference between the Labour Party and New Labour?”

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  28. Just to add that of course, if there is a government of national unity/emergency after the next election and the Labour Left don’t react in any way then Respect could well become very important indeed and a national presence would not be ruled out in advance. But that’s for the future.

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  29. Andy – you are very welcome to write a response to this document. However its main purpose is to put some ideas into the melting pot for the discussions between those people interested in both building a broad party who feel that some sort of organised Marxist current has a role to play in that. The document I produced on ecology a while ago is too and there are more in the pipeline.

    We repeatedly acknowledge that Respect is small and fragile and it would be self delusion to pretend it has any claim to being a national organisation. On the other hand it does have bases of support in three large cities so it is not negligible either.

    As for the paper – the earlier issues did have too much in common with Socialist Resistance. This was a problem and we did not like it. Recent issues have seen it develop its own personality.

    As for the conference and the way the organisation functions I think we will have to disagree. It pulled together a couple of hundred people, gave them a sense that they belonged to something and an opportunity to discuss politics. Even the Lib Dems let their members do that.

    Jack – the modest ambitions I have for this site run to slightly more than running a gossip forum about who said what in the comments section on another blog and tittle tattle about disagreements between grown ups. If people want to express political opinions and throw in a couple of jokes they are welcome. Clunkingly obvious attempts to distract a discussion get the chop. In any case Andy answered your question in his comment which shows how to express a political difference in the right way.

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  30. So the left of Respect wants to expand Respect’s influence and organisation beyond its current electoral base, while those in Respect who are to the right of that position want to concentrate all their efforts on shoring up Respect’s current electoral base and electoral prospects, and think a decision-making conference is a bad idea.

    For some odd reason, that strikes me as a familiar argument. Where have I heard that before?

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  31. “The other thing missing from the article is any mention on what should be the attitude of Respect to the election of a Labour Government. It needs to make absolutely clear that it is for a Labour victory at the next gen election.”

    I strongly disagree with this. Re-electing this government means being seen to approve of its attacks on civil liberties, its attacks on trade unions, its wars etc etc. Why on earth is it in the interest of working people to re-elect those responsible for neo-liberal attacks.?

    I’m not going to argue for such a line, that contradicts the whole ethos of a broad party of the left which aims to organise those discontented with capitalism into a party with its own independent aims. It is not the place of a broad left party to adopt the dubious ‘tactics’ of a pseudo-Leninist sect like the SWP (‘Vote Labour without illusions’ etc).

    We should only advocate votes for other parties or trends that are in some way left-wing and/or genuine spokespeople for workers or oppressed people and their struggles. This includes the genuinely leftwing elements of the Labour party, but not Blairite or Brownite scumbags. The best outcome if the choice is between Brown and Cameron is a hung parliament, where the two groups of anti-working class scoundrels cancel each other out.

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  32. The New Anti-Capitalist Party is where my heart is, but this comment from 1972 by Sartre regarding his support for Alain Krivine’s presidency is sweet:

    Victor: In ’69 you had the same idea concerning the unity of revolutionaries and you supported Krivine in the presidential elections.

    Sartre: I supported him for a while. But I wanted him to say: I am standing for office because it allows you to hear a voice of the extreme left on the television, but not in order to be elected.

    http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/1972/illegalisme.htm

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  33. “a hung parliament”? Yes, string them all up!

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  34. If only! 😉

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  35. “If people want to express political opinions and throw in a couple of jokes they are welcome”

    Would this be a good time to mention that I don’t know Jack?

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  36. @ Clive – thanks. My email address is on my blog and it would be good to hear from you. I will be at the January Convention of the Left.

    There was a heartening turn out of hundreds for the anti-BNP demo in Liverpool today. The BNP didn’t turn up.

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  37. Hi Jack,

    I agree with your comments that the different views on this page are useful, and that a lot of them could be reconciled. Alan’s perspective about how to continue to build Respect while at the same time encouraging the realignment of the broader left should not be confused for thinking that either of these goals are easy. No-one in Respect seems to have any illusions about its strength. What we do have is an important discussion about how to maintain and develop the party. Andy clearly has something to contribute to that, if he can find the time to engage with people’s opinions.

    Did you get an answer to your point about the conference? Andy is referring to a suggestion made by his and some others that the annual Respect conference be postponed until next year, partly in order to give people in London more time to work around the Mile End by-election. Because the conference had been called by the national council of Respect, only the same body could cancel it. And there was an argument that Respect needed a conference this year to help the organisation develop a new leadership and to meet nationally.

    I think Andy feels that, because his suggestions did not motivate people to overturn the decision of the national committee to call the conference, he was railroaded.

    Cheers,

    Duncan.

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  38. Thanks Peter. Unfortunatley it seems the ’email me’ link on your blog isn’t working. Perhaps you can email me directly at clive(at)respectnorthwest.org

    Good news about Liverpool on Saturday

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  39. chjh:

    `So the left of Respect wants to expand Respect’s influence and organisation beyond its current electoral base, while those in Respect who are to the right of that position want to concentrate all their efforts on shoring up Respect’s current electoral base and electoral prospects, and think a decision-making conference is a bad idea.

    For some odd reason, that strikes me as a familiar argument. Where have I heard that before?’

    The major difference is that the Socialist Resistance people seem capable of conducting exemplary politics and don’t feel the need to throw their toys out of the pram at the slightest set-back or to go `nuclear’.

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  40. Equally to the point is that the kind of conference Rees wanted was a rigged conference where the slate system and the rigging of delegations would be used to purge his critics and remove them from power.

    This is the exact opposite of what happened this year at Respect conference, we got rid of the wretched slate system and carried out an open election process of a type never seen in all the previous broad left party initiatives … SLP, SA, early Respect. All were marred by a lack of democracy, whether Scargill’s bureaucratic ‘voidings’ of people he didn’t like, or else the SWP’s use of the slate system to control-freak (if that can be used as a verb) both the SA and Respect mark 1.

    Respect mark 2 has got rid of that crap, which is a major achievement worth shouting about. When is the SWP going to adopt a similar democratic method of electing its leadership?

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  41. David, chjh,

    Let’s not suggest there are more differences than really exist.

    The discussion about Respect’s strategy is more complex than ‘left against right’. The issue is that there are three partial truths we need to try to connect up:
    – Britain’s electoral system rewards those who focus on a few constituencies (as the Green Party does);
    – it’s hard to build parties primarily through election campaign, so agitation and campaigning need to be developed on bread and butter issues;
    – that political work can be used to build Respect both in electoral strongholds and elsewhere.

    We cannot build Respect into an organisation with branches in every constituency. But we do have the opportunity to build in dozens of places, not just three.

    It would be mistaken to suggest that people who wanted the Respect conference postponed “think a decision-making conference is a bad idea”. I think they were against the conference being held on that particular weekend, and favoured a decision-making conference at a later date.

    Duncan.

    PS David. The ISG’s politics are reflected in Socialist Resistance and, less frequently, in Socialist Outlook. The Respect Paper isn’t the organ of the ISG, just because the ISG supports it.

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  42. […] * Mac Uaid hosts a Callinicos-Sabado debate on the NPA. * Meanwhile, Respect gear up for the Euros. * The Commune on the state and/or capitalism. * Public Sociologist on acts of […]

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  43. ID seems to be unaware that the SWP’s version of Respect voted at the 2007 conference to replace the slate system of election with a form of STV. I believe the recent Respect conference adopted a simple form of election which is essentially a mass version of FPTP. This does not guarantee representation for minority views in the way that STV can. That’s why STV was being pushed by independents and some minorities in the past in the Socialist Alliance and Respect. It seems weird that so few can have understood what they were arguing for.

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  44. A simple question, if as Alan Thornett says the recession and credit crisis “opens up big new opportunities for the left. People are looking for alternatives. Marx is back in vogue — all is forgiven! A wide-ranging debate has opened up about the viability of the capitalist system”.

    How does a non-marxist, organisation like Respect relate to this?

    If Marx is back in vogue, lets get rid of all this non-marxist, populist nonsense and get out there and argue some good old fashioned leftist socialism.

    Or am I just being ultra left?

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  45. Geoff, The intention for the future is to move towards a form of regional STV elections to the NC with additional members elected by STV at the conference. However, we were unable to get that in place in time. Hey Ho, we’ll just have to live with the current system for one more year.

    As for the argument about the conference – there are of course many more nuances than Charlie’s faux left-right polarisation. But put simply there was a debate as whether it was best to have the conference in October or in February and whether its should primarily debate policy or strategy and how such an event would be structured.

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  46. ID

    `I strongly disagree with this. Re-electing this government means being seen to approve of its attacks on civil liberties, its attacks on trade unions, its wars etc etc. Why on earth is it in the interest of working people to re-elect those responsible for neo-liberal attacks.?’

    I’d have to disagree.
    It would be a great shame if Respect, or part of it, was to collapse back into ultra-left posturing at this stage. Voting for Labour is a tactial question. It is an act of solidarity with the millions of workers who have illusions in it designed to allow us to get their ear for our own programme and assure them that it is safe to elect Respect MPs in its strongholds. At the next election small parties will be squeezed as workers will be determined to keep the school chums of the bankers out of power and there will be enough noises from NL to maybe even win a majority. A bit of patience now will pay great dividends after the election if Respect is in a position to influence the Labour Left which it won’t be if it willy nilly stands candidates against Labour and lets in rival parties.

    Surely there should also be a discussion with Galloway about what he is willing to support and work for as well. I’d have thought that was quite important as he is Respect’s most public face. Could not the NC appoint an ad hoc Election Strategy committee representing the major tendencies to discuss and negotiate the way forward with Galloway and Salma fully involved and then report back? And before anyone says it, this is not horse trading but serious coalition politics. That’s not to say that things cannot move and change extremely rapidly in the current situation but not in our heads.

    Duncan: thanks for the clarification earlier.

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  47. David, ]

    The NC has appointed a chair of an ‘elections committee’ which will comprise of election agents/campaign organisers and other memners to be decided. We will discuss electoral stragegy at the next NC in January.

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  48. That’s good news Clive.

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  49. “A bit of patience now will pay great dividends after the election if Respect is in a position to influence the Labour Left which it won’t be if it willy nilly stands candidates against Labour and lets in rival parties.”

    But the one does not logically follow from the other. One can choose carefully where one stands – ususally where you have a chance of winning – but still not actually go so far as to advocate a vote for people publicly hostile to the most basic aims of the workers movement.

    There are quite a few good left-wingers who would prefer to vote Lib Dem than New Labour, precisely because Labour excites no illusions at all that it acts in the interests of working people. Some may consider voting Tory because of the civil liberties issue. Obviously there is no way we can consider voting for any of these parties, but why should we positively favour the victory of the bourgeois New Labour hierarchy over them?

    It is not the job of a broad left party to advocate votes for any neo-liberal candidates. This is not an ultra-left position, but one that many the most politically conscious left-reformists who loathe New Labour tend to agree with in my experience. There are people on the Labour Left who refuse to campaign for Blair/Brownite scoundrels. Why should we tarnish ourselves by doing so?

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  50. Incidentally, the point Geoff Collier makes about the SWP’s short-lived pretend Respect adopting STV as their electoral system is formally true, but meaningless. TThey ‘adopted’ STV, but never held a contested election in any case because there were insufficient nominations to fill the available NC places -46 out of 50 – in 2007. And that formation is now effectively dead.

    I actually don’t see the point of STV for internal elections unless there are formally declared factions competing for individual seats on a leading body. In the absence of this, it seems to me to be over-elaborate and pointless, and its benefits obscure. Unless I’m missing something, but I don’t think so.

    Maybe there might be a demand for it some day, who knows. But I think the simple electoral system we used in October was democratic, there was a contested election and I don’t see how anyone can seriously complain about the outcome or process.

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  51. And, I forgot to add, the unitary Respect NC resolved to abolish the slate system in an agreement before the November 2007 split – JR & co went along with that only because they wanted to stave off the split at that point due to an apparently imminent General Election. Once the election was called off by Gordon Brown, the split was back on for Rees, but they had signed up for a different election method and could not openly renege on that for appearances sake. But in practice it became a dead letter almost immediately.

    Whereas at our conference on the same day, we did not have the resources or organisation to run an election at all, but just under a year later we comprehensively made up for that and kept our promise to genuinely abolish the slate system and run a proper democratic election.

    Sorry to bore people with this history, but such details need to be clarified. And sometimes real clarity about who stands for what takes a bit of time.

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  52. Hi Stuart,

    There’s increased interest in Marx’s economic ideas, so those that mean it’s ultra-left to suggest that Respect, or the rest of the left, should get out there and argue for socialism?

    Yes, it could be. Socialists have to distinguish between when it’s most effective for us to conduct propaganda, the communication of complex socialist ideas to advanced workers and their allies, or agitation, the mobilisation of broader layers around progressive demands related to their daily issues.

    Respect, like much of the left, is using its newspaper and public meetings to explain that what we have is a systemic failure of capitalism. However, it would be an ultra left error to prioritise those ideas, rather than daily struggles (for example, around wages, fuel poverty, housing and war) in our broad agitation work.

    In my opinion, for example, the comrades of Workers’ Power are mistaken to respond to the current crisis with an action programme which poses the need for a workers’ government and socialist revolution. That is a poor propaganda tool, because it doesn’t intervene into the far left (all of whom agree with the timeless statements in it), and a poor agitational tool, because it does not show any knowledge of which demands exist around which mobilisations and action in the labour movement can be developed.

    My feeling is that much of the left is most comfortable when making propaganda, and we have to ensure that ‘talking socialism on the street’ doesn’t become a way of avoiding the task of offering leadership and direction within the daily struggles.

    Duncan.

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  53. Duncan’s comment above is misleading, and careless.:

    “I think Andy feels that, because his suggestions did not motivate people to overturn the decision of the national committee to call the conference, he was railroaded. ”

    Duncan knows full well that the argument to postpone conference was not made by me. I agreed with it, but the argument was forcibly made by more significant figures in Respepct than me.

    The procedural issue of who could change the decision is a red herring. there is nothing in the constitution to say that the sterring committe could not vary the date of a conference agreed in principle by the NC; and the debate was conducted by e-mail on the NC.

    From my prespective, the problem was that even when it becasme clear that there was strong feeling on both sides, and some compromise should be reached; an appeal for compromise from a very senior figure in respect was ignored by the ISG, who had dug theiir heels in and would accept no compromise from theiri original idea for conferecne, even though all along they knew that other comrades had misgivings.

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  54. ID:

    `It is not the job of a broad left party to advocate votes for any neo-liberal candidates. This is not an ultra-left position, but one that many the most politically conscious left-reformists who loathe New Labour tend to agree with in my experience. There are people on the Labour Left who refuse to campaign for Blair/Brownite scoundrels. Why should we tarnish ourselves by doing so?’

    ID, I don’t think you are getting it when I say it is a tactic. I’m not advocating voting for neo-liberal candidates. Millions of workers will be voting for Labour whatever we advocate. Tactically it is not good to simply set one’s face against their illusions or wishes but to try to connect.

    It would be good if Respect could have maybe 7 or 8 candidates in the gen election if they can afford it and are not spread too thin but in the course of their campaign I think they should make it clear that they are in favour of electing Labour candidates where ever they are not standing. Possible exceptions may be Scotland and Wales and at a push the odd left-green. But workers need to be confident that Respect isn’t going to let the Tories in or other parties that might coalesce with the Tories.

    Also, tactically it will give Respect much more influence in the Labour Left if the election all goes pear shaped or the Left are expelled or leave. Tactics.

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  55. ” tactically it will give Respect much more influence in the Labour Left”

    # The Only Way Is Up #

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  56. Opposition to postponement of the Respect conference (and a downgrading to a half-day rally on the same day would have been a postponement, not a compromise) certainly extended further than the ISG, and I think the reason for that was that some members believed that introducing some form of democracy into the organisation was the most important thing. For a small group of people on the NC, no matter how ‘significant’, to overturn a previous decision would be to continue to run Respect as in the bad old days of John Rees, and it was time to change that!

    I still don’t really understand what the argument to defer the conference was about, as (quite understandably), people couldn’t turn up to conference and while there put the case about why there shouldn’t be one, so any further explanations about what the problem was might be helpful.

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  57. The problem is that mainstream, i.e. pro-Brown or Blairite candidates are neo-liberal candidates. So in advocating votes for them, you are, despite your best intentions, advocating votes for neo-liberal candidates. This neo-liberal trend dominates the Labour Party today, and its domination is what has opened up the political space for a broad working class trend to challenge Labour at the polls.

    If the Labour Party were not dominated by neo-liberal politicians, then it would not be New Labour. But trying to apply to New Labour tactics that were reasonable to apply when Labour was in some way responsive to the working class, is to be seen to advocate votes for privatisers, warmongers, and those who are worse than the Tories in attacking democratic rights (eg. ID cards). This is self-defeating and wrong.

    The tactic you are advocating is only applicable to those in the Labour Party who oppose the New Labour project. Those who support that project are no better than Tories, and indeed often worse in concrete, tangible ways.

    See for instance the David Davies by-election business. Davies had some mildly sympathetic coverage on George’s show – and managed to even gain the support of Tony Benn. Of course, Benn’s support for a Tory was folly, but actually, don’t think that there are no progressive-minded people in the Labour Party with grave reservations, or even hostility, to voting for New Labour candidates. Benn’s attitude to Davies action in standing had a lot of resonance.

    I think your position is unfortunately derived from a tradition where positions are unthinkingly extrapolated from something Lenin said in 1920, or that Trotsky said in 1934, when in fact conditions have changed a lot since them. Specifically, the Labour Party has changed a lot.

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  58. ID

    `So in advocating votes for them, you are, despite your best intentions, advocating votes for neo-liberal candidates.’

    I’m not advocating votes for them. I’m advocating that Respect, in solidarity with the mass of the working class makes it plain that it is in favour of returning Labour candidates where it is not standing and a Labour government in the absence of anything better. There is very little point having class consciousness if you don’t act as a class which is why the working class hates the sects. Respect needs to make it easier for the working class to vote for it not harder.

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  59. I really don’t understand the semantics of this argument. If you advocate returning [New] Labour candidates and “a Labour government in the absence of anything better” you are advocating votes for them.

    Workers who vote for New Labour are not acting as a class. And in fact, this methodology is exactly the methodology of the ‘sects’: witness the SWP 1990s slogan: “vote Labour without illusions”. If there are no illusions in voting Labour, then there is point to advocating votes for them. The whole point of the tactic of critical support for Labour as originally advocated was to put real illusions, that Labour would defend the working class, to the test of office, and dispel them.

    Today, just about the only people with those kinds of illusions are priveleged TU bureaucrats like Derek Simpson (or it would be more accurate to say that they have a material interest in trying to create such illusions where none exist). Ordinary people know full well that the Labour leaders are not even remotely on their side against the super-rich, any more than the Tories are.

    My god, they’re still attacking the poor and intensifying the witchhunt against benefit claimants even as recession bites. How much clearer can it get? They’re attacking immigrants in ways that Thatcher never dared. There is a enormous list of reasons why they don’t deserve workers’ votes or any support from the left. Only opponents of New Labour deserve that.

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  60. So the way to build class consciousness is to campaign for people to vote for New Labour?

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  61. You would say that, you sectarian. Obviously candidates are Labour rather than New Labour if Resect calls for a vote for them. You and the rest of the Respect majority splittist clique are making it harder for the working class to vote for them. Don’t you feel any guilt ?

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  62. “Respect majority splittist clique”

    Is this from your Little book of Maoist insults ?

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  63. Unfortunately I don’t have one, Dickie. Obviously I think it is your faction that purloined the name Respect from the majority that are the real splittist clique, but I were Tibet I’d guess that you have no sense of humour.

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  64. No problem with a sense of humour Skiddie,
    your posts always make me laugh

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  65. your faction that purloined the name Respect

    I take it you’ll be putting down a motion calling for the immediate resignation of the renegade Elaine Graham-Leigh.

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  66. Phil

    I think you mean the ‘defeatist ,conciliator renegade Elaine Graham-Leigh.

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  67. skidmarx does very much come oover as someone fighting yesterday’s battles.

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  68. Yesterday’s LOST battles.

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  69. yesterday at a vigil against asylum seeker destitution, I was surprised to hear a local left wing labour councillor during his speech suddenly make a fulsome praise of the particularly hard work of Respect in Cardiff (he was of course referring to the group formerly known as Respect in Cardiff), it is quite funny in a way that many people in the general movement aren’t even aware of the big rumble & that Respect went down the pan a year ago.

    The name change is a bit of a pain in the ass.

    Typical Punter: Left Alternative? Never heard of them. Are you like the Socialist Equality Party or Communist League or something. Never heard of you.
    Left Alternativist: Oh, there was a split, we were called Respect.
    Typical punter: Split? (loses interest, walks off with visions of the Life of Brian and Popular Fronts of Judaea)

    OR ALTERNATIVELY

    Typical punter: Respect, guv? they that bunch with the geezer who was a cat on TV, I ain’t sure about them.
    Left Alternativist: Sadly, Sir George Galloway OBE had many fine qualities, but we had to part company – sadly.
    Typical punter: Oh well, I might take ya leaflet, cheers mate

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  70. Alan T’s article does come across as a bit “whingey” the fact that he has to write down the left wing ABC for his comrades suggests Renewal is largely vacuous

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  71. But it’s your party not mine, and you can cry if you want to, cry if you want to, i would cry too if it happened to me etc.

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  72. Ah, but in order for it to happen to you, you’d need to find a party to join. Or at least a couple of mates to start one with. Poor old Billy no-mates Adamski- a head full of half-understood theory and no one to apply it with. Solitary brother…

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  73. I am not that impressed by Thornetts piece. There seems to be a lack of clarity in his formulations in my view. There is clearly a growing problem for Respect and that is that they are not growing. I am interested to know if comrades think that in the short term Browns switch to Keynesim will narrow the electoral prospects for the left, I emphasis the short term. If so then the ability of Respect to make an impact will be reduced. If as others such Ovenden are right and Respect do badly then the tensions inside the organisation will lead to a fight.

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  74. Just on Duncan’s point about it might be ultra left to argue a revolutionary position just at the moment when workers are questioning the nature of how capitalism works.

    He says:”Socialists have to distinguish between when it’s most effective for us to conduct propaganda, the communication of complex socialist ideas to advanced workers and their allies, or agitation, the mobilisation of broader layers around progressive demands related to their daily issues.”

    I think he will find that this interpretation of agitation and propaganda was not that used by the Plekhanov, Lenin, Trotsky or even Kautsky in his better periods, it was the method used by the Mensheviks who interpreted agitation as something politically distinct from propaganda – ‘a call to action’ they called it.

    For Duncan propaganda is “complex socialist ideas” whereas for the dumbo old working class, all they can understand is “progressive demands related to their daily issues”. Or in language we can all understand, Marxism is for the intellectuals and the working class vanguard, and reformism is what we put forward for the masses.

    For Marxists the only difference between propaganda and agitation is the context and the form in which the ideas are put – propaganda is putting many ideas to a few people, agitation, a few ideas to many, but they are the same (Marxist) ideas.

    Sorry to have to restate what the father of Russian Marxism argued in the 1890s, but Duncan and his fellow Fourth Internationalists have clearly forgotten the basics in their rush to embrace the reformist broad party.

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  75. “I take it you’ll be putting down a motion calling for the immediate resignation of the renegade Elaine Graham-Leigh.”

    I’m not exactly sure what you’re talking about here. I’m not too up on yesterday’s battles. If you’re talking about the fact that E G-L on behalf of the Respect majority, gave up the fight to keep the name of the organisation in the hands of the majority and enabled you undemocratic plotters to win a (now seemingly Pyrrhic) victory, no it doesn’t bother me. We’ve been over this before. I’m not so bothered over the name as concerned to show what an undemocratic bunch of losers you are not to go away and form your own organisation with a new name when it is obvious to anyone who can count up to 200 that you had no right to the name Respect, except the spurious grounds that you’re faction had more potential appeal to the electorate, which is likely to haunt you all as the Regurgitate project finally implodes and noone on the Left will trust any of you not to launch a coup in any future organisation.

    # Me and my girl sealclubbing
    Me and my girl, ooh how nice #

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  76. Skidmarx isn’t fighting old battles as he wasn’t even involved in Respect. His battles are entirely new and utterly transparent. His posts are just trolling dressed up with weak humour and apolitical spite. A prize for anyone who can spot something constructive this person (word deleted -Liam) as posted on any site in the last 6 months.

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  77. End – I’d take a more charitable view.

    At least Skidmarx is trying to come to terms and offer a view about what happened from the SWP side of the split. This is preferable to simply accepting the latest download from HQ and emotions can express themselves in odd ways – up to and including Iggy Pop lyric pastiches.

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  78. Liam, you are far too gracious and trusting. But since it’s your blog you’ve every right to to suffer his interminable smugness as you see fit.

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  79. Actually that was Half Man Half Biscuit. From the song “Seal Clubbing”.

    I think at least it’s political spite. If you’ve done a search on my screen-name you’ll find what I thought were helpful comments on the possibilty of the SP and SWP coming together either in Britain or Ireland, and I did a lot of what I thought was constructive commentary on the Obama campaign, particularly on splinteredsunrise and the Cedar Lounge. And I thought I was being helpful when I pointed out a dating error here a couple of months ago. Do I win the prize?If you find me interminably smug it is probably because you have run out of argument rational or otherwise, and find you only have personal attacks on me left in your armoury.

    Phil, this is the second time I’ve raised the now obviously undemocratic nature of the coup that gave your faction control of the Respect name, and it is the second time you’ve responded by suggesting that I have a problem I should take it up with the SWP. I thought my explanation was clear enough last time, but I am either not making myself clear or you are either a fool or a knave. Let me restate the argument:

    On what basis does your faction of Respect have a right to use the name and appropriate the history? Is it:

    (i) Because you had the numerical majority of Respect on your side
    (ii) Because your faction had more appeal to the electorate
    (iii) Because the SWP has decided that the game isn’t worth the candle the name is yours by default
    (iv) Some other reason or a combination of the above

    You seem to be running with (iii), my contention is that if (i) is not the case you are a bunch of undemocratic chancers who shouldn’t be trusted by anyone on the left (or the right or the middle or in dimensions yet to be discovered).
    I would have thought that my lack of involvement in Respect might suggest the possibilty of some relative objectivity. But then nothing End of an Era says seems to go towards constructing an argument, let alone a constructive one.

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  80. I think its (iii). They did walk out in a hissy fit after all.

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  81. Page 4 – 5 of my main local paper is on the jobs massacre in S.Wales, with the centrepiece being a big story on our fightback campaign, our two public meetings and a message of support from Tony Benn http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/12/05/tony-benn-joins-battle-for-jobs-91466-22408960/

    Job cuts have disproportionately hit South Wales, every day we hear of a big workplace shutting down. Our area experienced a particularly brutal massacre of jobs and communities under thatcher, so this is is a life and death struggle. As Will Paynter, the south wales miners leader and communist said, ‘When a pit dies, it’s like a death in the family’, the same is true for our communities today.

    Any messages of support to families and workers is welcome, send to CardiffChartists@live.co.uk

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  82. David Ellis – thank-you for answering the question. I don’t agree, whatever the particular spark of the split, the SWP’s side of the split was deprived of the name by a bureaucratic manoeuvre(having the Nomination Officer on your side of the split). They have argued extensively that it was your side that had a breakaway conference and so could be thought to have walked out in a hissy fit. My point about (i) remains.

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  83. No, no. It’s definitely (iii).

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  84. “I would have thought that my lack of involvement in Respect might suggest the possibilty of some relative objectivity.”

    Sadly though you have shown no objectivity whatsoever, just reguritated the line from on high. I await to see if it changes again over the coming few months.

    But in answer to your point about the name – it’s all rather simple.

    The SWP in the guise of soon to be deposed John Rees – alongside his allies Lucky Lindsey and Angry Chris – decided they could rip up the Respect constitution and hold an unconstitutional conference.

    They thought they could undermine the decisions of the National Council. They thought they could get their own way by splitting Tower Hamlets Respect council group (pulling out their much vaunted left bloc – you remember them don’t you?). They were aided in this by Rees’ now nemeses Tough Guy Smith (who lied to the SWP weekly in Party Notes) and Alex “Listen to Our Councillors” Callinicos.

    They decided to play dirty so our side responded in kind. But we had the trump card and you did not. And guess what Skid old boy, we won. Get used to it. So we got the name and you ended up with a great big green balloon, thousands of pounds of debt and the desire to blame anyone rather than yourselves.

    Though that seems to be a changing in the last few weeks. Now it seems the official order of the day is to blame Rees alongside the wrecker Galloway. In such an atmosphere of blame who knows who may be next – perhaps even the innocent Skidmarx whose concern over Respect was so great that he was never actually involved. He just came out of the ether to disect the entrails. What out – the knives are being sharpened.

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  85. Sadly I realise that I have committed a Cardinal Sin. Several posts above I have been a victim of Liam’s Censor’s Pen.

    I know when I have crossed the line. I only wish now that I’d used a stronger word to describe Mr Skidmarx. I would have been worth the ignominy – if only for one brief, shining moment.

    Alas too late and my shame is too great. I shall post here no longer.

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  86. Mr Skiddy.

    I would suggest that you take up fishing. Quite moments of contemplation by the side of the bank can go along way in soothing such a torture soul as yours.

    Alternatively, you can relax at your Mini-Marxism tomorrow, while the rest of us join in the Climate Change demo.

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  87. To paraphrase Adamski:

    The name change is a bit of a pain in the ass.

    SWP councillor in Preston: Left Alternative? Never heard of them.
    Left Alternativist: Oh, go on please
    SWP councillor in Preston:: No, I am changing my party description on preston council to independent socialist,.

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  88. Skidmarx – where we are now is that Respect contains a group of people who identify themselves as revolutionary socialists who devote a far bit of time trying to make to make it work electorally and to be part of the realignment happening on the left of British politics.

    Why should that stress anyone on the left?

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  89. SWP Councillor in Preston: ‘Left Alternative’ is a naff name

    Adamski: Oh go on, please use it. I’ve just been elected with the consent of the SWP to the National Committee – it must be of some importance to you.

    SWP Councillor in Preston: Nope. In fact it’s so irrelevant I’m not even going to mention it on my new shiny personalised website. Preston Respect is dead, long live my fan club!

    Adamski: Even if you are not prepared to change your description on the council to Left Alternative, maybe you could at least provide a link to it on your personal website? You are also a member of the NC like me, are you not?

    SWP Councillor in Preston: Nope, I’m not mentioning it. I’m linking to Socialist Worker, Socialist Review, Bookmarks and even Globalise Resistance but definitely not ‘Left Alternative’.
    http://www.michaellavalette.com/

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  90. Poor Michael, he’s been plugging away doing some good local work but in the 5 years he has been elected he has had to change his electoral hat 4 times; first SA then Respect, briefly LA and now independent socialist!

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  91. Joseph – when was he ‘briefly’ Left Alternative? I don’t think he ever was, in Preston at least.

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  92. End of an Era – If insulting me provides the only bright moments in your life you should get out more. When you say your going I assume like other bloggers of your faction, you are only going to re-appear under another name. Your previous contibution is strangely about as rational as you’ve got. I don’t agree that the events in Tower Hamlets were the turning point, it seems clear that your faction were already preparing for the split by then. In many ways the split may be a good thing, I’d hate to think that the SWP would have had to have put up with the diatribes from people they were still in alliance with.

    Mr. Dickie, I was on the Climate Change march. I noticed that 75% of the dozen at most selling the Respect paper had white hair. The future belongs to someone else. (Workers’ Power did have a very young contingent).

    Liam – it is a little funny that you stumble over the phrase “trying to make it work”. It won’t, and the sooner you recognise that, the sooner you can move on to some practical socialist politics. What is left of Respect is not part of some realignment of the Left, it is a divisive group whose claim even to the name Respect is sullied by the theft with which it was obtained. There may be some within it who identify themselves as revolutionary socialists, but when real issues come up and someone attacks a position held by one of you leading members, the response is either to deny any collective responsibilty and say that Respect is a broad organisation with differing views (e.g. Mark Anthony France’s call for the sacking of social workers in Haringay), or if it is George, to defend him even when he takes extremely anti-democratic positions (e.g.Tibet), or to lie about what has been said (Kevin Ovenden over de Menezes). The stress will come when you want anyone on the Left to work with you and they can point to major undemocratic behaviour.

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  93. You are one boring anti-communist. It’s (iii) by the way.

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  94. Skids,
    were you one of the four SW sellers in attendance or were you incognito

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  95. Skiddie – the answer to the question “on what basis does what used to be RR have the right to the name RESPECT?” is “on the basis of a meeting at which both sides agreed that RR could keep the name”. I’ve got no idea how to answer the question of who ought to have the name.

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  96. Dirty pants: get over to Lenin’s Tomb, those blockheads are having a debate about whether they should have a maximum or a minimum programme. I said if they were trots they could have a transitional programme but they are not so they can’t but it was deleted. I bet I can guess which side of the arguement you are on. When are the maxis going to have it out with the minis?

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  97. The Workers United will never be defeated` not with you lot involved. So far up yourown arses int`s unreal. I`m sick of being lead up the garden path by power crazed t~~~s. Socialist Alliance and Respect ripped apart by people who could only see there side of the arguement. As a member of the former and supporter of the latter i`ve seen it at first hand. No wonder the support from rank and file workers was so poor. (ABUSE DELETED -UPNORTH WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE OR COMMENT ELSEWHERE – LIAM)

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  98. David Smellish – I can’t do anything about you finding me boring, but I suspect that’s another lie as you wouldn’t keep replying. If by anti-communist you mean I don’t have a lot of time for Stalinists I plead guilty (and history be my judge). My point about (i) remains. I’m not sure I have the time to look at Lenin’s Tomb now that I have to be in work at 07.30, but thanks for the heads up.

    Dickie- no I wasn’t selling SW. I actually had a long discussion with one of the half-dozen manning the SW stall at the beginning about how I thought organising around a paper was a bit out of date, but their paper is a million times better than your rubbish one, which had not an article of any value (except poosibly one of the film reviews). Without having it to hand I remember that there was a mention of a resolution at your conference on Iran that was amended such that the original proposers couldn’t support it, without saying what either the original or final resolution said. Once again, if you can only talk about what Respect stands for in the vaguest of terms you don’t stand for everything, you stand for nothing.

    Phil – you say that both sides agreed that RR could keep the name, as far as I can see the SWP gave up fighting you for it. There’s a difference, you know. AS to which side ought to have the name, I think it’s:
    (i) whoever had the numerical majority of Respect on their side
    I think that if you could be described as a democrat you would agree, the fact that you don’t is one of the reasons I think RR is an anti-democratic rabble.

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  99. I think whats done is done regardign the past. I do feel as an independent that Galloway and his followers would ave certainly lost a vote at a united conference and they were aware of that and acted accordingly.
    we can’t undo the past. The interesting thing is that there clearly exists a real tension within Respect and I can’t see that going away. If and I am not saying this will happen, Galloway loses at the next election there will be a crisis within the organisation which if we are honest has not manage to grow waht so ever since the split. It is small and fragile. I have to say that I see Mark France writing in the Respect newspaper, and he is calling for the sacking of social workers in Haringay, alongside some fairly dreadful arguements about women in general. I do think these need to be challenged. If Mark has his way he wants Repsect on the sack the social workers march!! I am sure Liam and co are not in favour of these arguements but seem to be a bit quiet in taking them on.

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  100. It’s no lie. Sectarians are very tedious but of course they need to be opposed as they prey on young minds.

    David Smellish? Oh dear.

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  101. This silly name business stops here. I will delete any comment which deliberately ridicules someone else’s name.

    As for Mark’s comments we find them worse than wrong and have commissioned an article for the Socialist Resistance website to explore the issues.

    One SR supporter puts it thus:

    “Clearly it is possible that there was serious negligence involved in this case by social services which has to be dealt with.

    But what MAF buys into big time is not a careful examination of what happened in this case but the whole reactionary tabloid knee-jerk agenda of blaming a social worker when a parent harms a child.

    They do this whatever the situation. In the end it is in order to defend and cover up the reality of what goes on in the family. They ignore the shear scale of child abuse and the impossibility of protecting every child against parents determined to harm them and cover it up. They pillory social workers if they fail to detect abuse and they pillory them just the same if they remove a child from home. They are then accused of trampling over the rights of the parents and of ‘nanny state’ interference into the family.

    No wonder it is increasingly difficult find people to work in child protection.”

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  102. I am glad for that comment Liam. I am disturbed that a leading Respect national exec member can come out with this right wing stuff. I hope there is some article in the Repsect paper on this issue, perhaps Mark can have a reply/article for his side. It would go down well amongst social care workers!!!
    At least there are some in Respect like yourself who are willing to disagree with this stuff.

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  103. “the shear scale of child abuse”

    I think that should be “sheer scale”

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  104. “I think whats done is done regardign the past. I do feel as an independent that Galloway and his followers would ave certainly lost a vote at a united conference and they were aware of that and acted accordingly.”

    Sorry Steve, I really can’t let this pass,. I know you are perfectly free to think I am lying or simply mistaken but at no point was winning or losing a simple conference vote a consideration for ‘Galloway and his followers’. Indeed I can’t think of any vote on policy or structure that was to be voted on at the conference that would have been so significant as to justify not attending to avoid the vote.

    Indeed we were fully prepared to be in a minority within the conference and the party as a whole – and were in the process of discussions towards forming a ‘Respect first’ platform to be launched at the conference. This we expected to be in a minority for some time.

    What made the conference untenable was the fact that JR and friends had decided to play fast and lose with the constitution of Respect – in other words the conference would have been unconstitutional in a number of ways (This has been written about at length elsewhere.)

    At this point National Council members had a choice – either we could go along with the charade and so become complicit in it, accepting that the rules were only so much much window dressing to be discarded at whim – or we stood up and said enough is enough. This is what we did. Now you can disagree with our reasoning and with our tactics but ,please, don’t try to impune our motivation by suggesting it was simply out of fear of losing a vote.

    As for the stuff about Baby P – I can’t understand why some people are getting all exercised over one person’s point of view. Now I know there are some who can’t comprehend the idea that you can be in a party where people disagree about big issues rather than just about pre-determined nuances of historical analysis. But Respect is a broad party. If we all agreed it wouldn’t be broad – and on a number of issues the breadth of opinion will be greater than others. I’m happy with that. It means I’m free to agree with what other members say and disagree as well.

    And one final point Steve, you write that “I have to say that I see Mark France writing in the Respect newspaper, and he is calling for the sacking of social workers in Haringay, alongside some fairly dreadful arguements about women in general.” You imply that this is what Mark has written in the paper – whereas in fact he has written about his impressions of the October conference.

    Perhaps some are happier with only allowing those with sufficiently pure socialist credentials (no doubt determined by a self-selecting minority) to write for an organisation’s public media on whatever issue. I for one much prefer the more open view taken by Respect. So some of my fellow members have opinions with which I disagree but why should others be expected to jump to denounciation every time someone, usually a political opponent, demands it.

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