imageWill Brown tries to take the pain out of economics.

Getting to grips with economics is a daunting task. Most of us reserve our energies for less muddy waters – and leave matters economic to a few twitchy anorak types. But as the world economy collapses round our ears it affects much we hold dear. Some of us feel compelled to try to understand things economic – if only to judge where the world is heading. Below are suggestions to anyone embarking on this journey.

Do it collectively

There is no substitute for learning about economics with other people. In Bristol there are at least two groups where people meet monthly to discuss the world economy. We take it in turns to introduce a topic (‘banks’ say, or ‘the US car industry’) and then discuss it. Between us we can usually come up with explanations of how things work. And we can draw on the range of economic experience the group has – of different jobs, of visits to various parts of the world, of memories of past events. While our culture continually emphasises the lonely achievement of isolated individuals – ‘great minds’ – in reality thought and understanding is socially generated.

Get your head round numbers

Economics is about numbers. This puts a lot of people off. Economics is the study of humanity’s collective productive power – about how our material existence is produced and consumed – about wealth, work and power. Human actions and processes have to be divided into categories and numbers are use to measure the scale of these categories. So a key skill is to be able to conceptualise large numbers. For example, ‘there are 160,000,000 cars in the USA and before the market bombed 16,0000,000 were produced every year’. Does your mind go numb when you read that sentence? How can we imagine 160,000,000 cars? There are 10,000,000 people in London – imagine 16 Londons laid out next to each other. Think of a cube 1cm on an edge. Say a playing dice. Imagine a line 1,000 dice long – that’s 10metres. Now imagine covering the floor of the gym with a square of dice 10 metres by 10 metres. That’s a million dice. Picture them all. Now stack layer upon layer of dice on this square till you have a block of dice 10 metres square and 10 metres high. Picture it in your mind – demolish a corner of it. That’s a billion dice – a thousand million. Think of a skip full of red lentils – that’s about a billion. Or think of a tea chest full of dried sand. Stick your hand in. That’s a billion grains of sand.

The world runs on oil. Humanity uses 60 million barrels a day. A barrel is 2 foot across and 3 foot high. It’s easy to work out how many barrels would cover a football pitch. And how many layers of barrels the pitch would need to be covered in to get you 60 million barrels. ( Answer – football pitch is 100yds by 50 yds so it would take 11,000barrels to cover the pitch. So you’d need a stack of 5,300 layers of barrels – about 3 miles high – to hold a days supply of oil. Not that we’ll ever run out of course)

Build a model in your head

So a big part of understanding the world economy is to build a model in your head. What are the main industries? How are they organised? What are the main companies? Where do the raw materials come from? What do the inside of factories look like? Who has the money? Economics is fraught with specialist terms. Seemingly every article you read is writhing in credit default swaps, minimum lending rates, LIBOR or fiscal policy. What do all these terms mean? The only thing to do is slowly compile a glossary of the different terms. Reading about the world economy becomes less painful. Wikipedia is a fantastic source for such definitions – Google an unfamiliar term and almost always Wikipedia will be able to give you a concise working definition. Indeed, its now possible to get a working knowledge of the world economy simply through Google and Wikipedia.

Use good sources

The Financial Times is by far the most important single source for economic information. Clearly written and powerfully resourced it is long on information and analysis and short on waffly opinion. It has two sections – general economic/ political news and detailed news about companies and markets. It also has an opinion page where it invites leading figures to write briefly on key issues. Contributors in the past months have included Henry Kissinger, George Soros, the CEO of General Motors, the Russian President and the CEO of Lehman Bros. The Saturday edition presents an overview of the week past. The FT has a consistent editorial policy requiring that every article explains economic categories and mechanisms above a basic level. Most other British media financial news just echoes the FT. For current market information the BBC News (Business) website is very useful. It gives real time and historic data on all world markets and plenty of background stories. Robert Peston is very annoying, Newsnight’s Paul Mason is good . The BBC and the FT inevitably have some degree of UK centric bias so it is interesting to occasionally read alternative sources. International Herald Tribune and Business Week are good for a New York perspective. But the world economy is very global – all good sources will have economic stories from the Pearl Delta in southern China to the North Alaskan Oil slopes to collapsed Icelandic hedge funds.

Ask good questions

To find out about economics the key is to ask good questions. A good question is one that is very hard to answer – you’re forced to gain a profound understanding to answer it. I always have a few questions in my mind that I think about for years. Recent favourites have been ‘what is money?’, ‘how much control do governments have over the economy?’ and ‘what are banks?’

Study history

Of course the economy changing all the time. To try and understand it is to try and paint a big moving thing. Large, complex industrial sectors didn’t exist not so many years ago. They were born and then grew. To understand them now it is good to think about their history. Think about the aircraft industry from the first flight at Kitty Hawk, 17th December 1903. The rise of the aluminium industry, Boeing, avionics, Heathrow, the spitfire and helicopters. Think about the workers, the money and the technology. Then think about it all now – the Boeing /Aerospace duopoly, crisis at Altalia., world aluminium prices collapsing, the fate of the big smelters in Iceland, Rolls Royce announcing job cuts, holiday firms in crisis.

Criticise a theory

Of course there is no basic agreement even about the fundamentals of how the world economy works. Mainstream economic theory (also called ‘academic’ or ‘bourgeois’ economics) takes capitalism as a given and seeks to explain ‘how it works’. Its not good on why its history is littered with crisis. Even within this framework there is plenty of dispute – primarily between followers of Keynes and the monetarists. A more critical approach is taken
by the Marxist tradition which seeks to place capitalism within a much broader context of humanity’s historical development and emphasises the conflicts and contradictions within the capitalist system. Within the Marxist tradition there are numerous variants and disputes. And in recent years there has been a mushrooming of economic analysis that considers economic processes from an ecological point of view – examining the relationship between human activity and the eco system.

A powerful idea from the Marxist and anarchist traditions is that ideas are socially produced rather than being the exclusive creation of towering geniuses. These traditions generated by the combined efforts of thousands of working class activists and radical intellectuals battling to understand the violent and revolutionary world of the new capitalism growing around them. We shouldn’t give up trying to understand economic processes around us and just rely upon the infallible pronouncements of chosen gurus, rich people or politicians. The premise of the Left has always been that ordinary people are capable of understanding economic process – and that it is for this very reason they will ultimately be able to take control of our own labour power.

Will Brown

Totterdown

Bristol

42 responses to “How to do economics”

  1. I am sorry, but what exactly are these alleged ‘contradictions’?

    I have only been asking comrades now for over 25 years and have yet to receive a clear answer.

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  2. There are some nice Marxist economics courses on you tube for example the David Harvey course.

    I find the Economist useful, if you are aware of their clear neo-liberal bias, they have had a couple of half decent articles on social sharing/commons, they seem to run a scare story about fish running out every week….however unlike Gillian Tett at the FT they did not predict the current crisis.

    The Corner House are ever excellent, whose common future and crumbling wall of money are very very important articles you can down load for free.

    personally plug…my book Babylon and Beyond looks at different schools of anti-capitalist economics.

    Roberto Perez the Cuban green activist, is also a pretty impressive economist…but this is just my feeling from being lucky enough to chat to him for a couple of hours!

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  3. Rosa,

    Contradictions are part of the fabric of material reality. Of course, the bankers preferred formal logic and failed to see the contradictions in what they were doing.

    Capitalism is a political economy based on the contradiction of irreconcilable class struggle but the bourgeois economists try to naturalise it. Theirs is a purely technical science in which all the contradictions are ironed out so that it looks like capitalism has not only always been with us but always will be. But they would say that wouldn’t they?

    How do you approach economics Rosa? Dialectically or formally?

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  4. David,

    How can a contradiction be part of the very fabric of material reality?

    If you can justify that you should send a paper to the journal Nature.

    I think economics is quite possibly the key topic for any Marxist. All the more important to avoid dogma. The ‘failing to grasp the contradictions inherent in the system’ type arguments are snake oil. Which unfortunately happens to be the current standard.

    Mainstream economists do indeed only work within fixed premises such as the assumption of property rights as so on. What I would like ‘Marxist analysis’ to mean is the consideration of class dynamics and history. Now, I know Robert Brenner’s book, ‘The Economics of Global Turbulence’ is a recommended read by the ISG and is certainly very interesting, although it contains difficult economist jargon as already mentioned by Will Brown, it would nonetheless be an excellent starting point for any discussion on economics and crises.

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  5. Some of the contradictions marxists believe are inherent in capitalism:

    competition between enterprises oblige each company to try to pay its workers as little as possible so there is an immediate contradiction between the interests of the shareholders (to maximise profits) and the workers to maximise wages.

    While individual enterprises seek to force down the wages of their own workers they also rely on the spending power of wage owners in general to consume output

    Capitalist competition is continually developing science and technology as a means of forcing up productivity but this can frequently conflict with existing social relations – for example new technology generating unemployment.

    Social relations aimed at regulating negative outcomes of capitalism – e.g national state action to limit the tendency to monopoly – can be undermined or contradicted by transnational organisation of capital – witness the way that state regulation of finance brought in after the 1930 crash was circumvented by the globalisation of capital from the early 80’s.

    The way that capitalism doesn’t cost negative ecological effects (like global warming) is in contradiction to its own survival (and certainly that of humanity).

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  6. David, thanks for that, but I note that you too have failed to tell us what these mysterious “dialectical contradictions” are, or how you know they are “part of the fabric of reality”. And it’s no good just repeating the tired old formulae we have all heard a thousand times before if they contain what seems to me to be a meaningless phrase: “dialectical contradiction”.

    Moreover, I very much doubt that bankers use formal logic. Unless, that is, you can find me several hundred quotations from them to the contrary.

    Furthermore, many non-dialecticians saw the present crisis coming years ago too. So, ‘dialectics’ hasn’t given us much of an advantage here.

    “How do you approach economics Rosa? Dialectically or formally?”

    I approach it as Marx did: non-dialectically. A controversial thing to say, yes — but it is in fact quite easy to show that Marx abandoned ‘the dialectic’ as it has traditionally been understood by the time he wrote Das Kapital.

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  7. Will, thanks for that too. I agree that classes can have contradictory interests but how are these “dialectical contradictions” and not just ordinary ones?

    But I have other serious problems with what you say. For example:

    “The way that capitalism doesn’t cost negative ecological effects (like global warming) is in contradiction to its own survival (and certainly that of humanity).”

    But, how is this a “contradiction”? The only contradiction” here, it seems to me, would be something like:

    “Capitalism doesn’t cost negative ecological effects and it does”

    Or:

    “Capitalism will survive and it won’t”.

    Similar problems afflict your other examples, I’m sorry to have to say.

    Now, can I tell any other comrades tempted to repeat the same tired old examples that have been around for the last 150 years not to bother — I have seen the lot. As I noted in my reply to David above: they are all devoid of sense until and unless someone tells us what this obscure term means “dialectical contradiction”.

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  8. BY ALL MEANS TEACH THE BASICS, BUT EMPHASIZE THAT THE RELEVANCE OF ECONOMICS IS A BIG ISSUE FOR INCOMING COLLEGE FRESHMEN.

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    My Name is Jeffrey M Doyle. I attended the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor and Michigan State University, receiving my Ph.D in Resource and Environmental Economics in 1977. The Title of my Dissertation was ” An Economic Analysis of Interfuel Competion”. In that publication, I emphasized the necessity of integrating Tradional Economic Theory with concepts from physics and ecology. It has taken decades for these ideas to be accepted as a more useful framework for predicting and solving real world problems like those we face in 2008. Currently there is great uncertainty among people entering college about whether “Economics” is a relevant or useful field to enter.
    The purpose of my site is to show the many ways that Evolutionary Economics is not only useful, but is absolutely essential to solve the many problems America and the World are facing currently.

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  9. Rosa:

    It is not dialectical contradiction it is dialectical materialism. Dialectic started as meaning the art of arguement but came to mean the logic of contradiction. Contradiction being the unity and struggle of opposites.

    Is the universe wholly determined or wholly random. It is in fact a unity of the two in constant struggle with each other which gives rise to objective laws. Chance, as Engels explained, finds its expression in necessity.

    Formal logic, under the law of the excluded middle, will insist that it cannot be both but must be one or the other. Wholly determined would surely mean there was a god and wholly random would mean you couldn’t put one foot in front of the other with any certainty if , that is, you’d ever got to the point of having feet.

    Nice to see you think classes have contradictory interests. So you do know what a contradiction is after all.

    Here is a capitalist contradiction: the exchange value of a commodity is ultimately determined by the amount of labour power necessary in its production which of course in the final analysis determines the rate of profit the capitalist will enjoy but competition forces him to reduce the amount of labour power required in the production of his commodities which leads to a tendency in the rate of profit to decline. The desire for profit motivates competition which undermines profit.

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  10. Thanks for that David, but I do not buy this:

    “It is not dialectical contradiction it is dialectical materialism. Dialectic started as meaning the art of argument but came to mean the logic of contradiction. Contradiction being the unity and struggle of opposites.”

    I do not see how the examples comrades give are “struggles of opposites”. How does exchange value “struggle” with “use value”?

    Moreover, according to Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov and Lenin, these opposites eventually turn into one another. But, electrons do not turn into positrons, nor even protons. The capitalist class does not turn into the working class, and the working class does not turn into the capitalist class. Exchange value does not turn into use value, the forces of production do not turn into the relations of production.

    Moreover, the law of excluded middle does not say what you allege of it, and that is because the law of excluded middle deals with a proposition and its negation. Your two examples do not exhaust the alternatives, so they are not negations of one another.

    “Nice to see you think classes have contradictory interests. So you do know what a contradiction is after all.”

    I do, but it seems you do not, for the example you give are not even formal contradictions, let alone ‘dialectical contradictions’, which we still haven’t had explained to us.

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  11. Contradictions are a way of grasping processes of change, because (contrary to the appearance produced by the calculus) time is not quantised but infinitely divisible. In this context “the present” does not exist but is merely an inductive inference that the near future will be the same as the near past which we routinely make in perception.

    Hence the basic proposition of formal logic, that A u ~A, is only *approximately* true of anything in the perceptible world. Things are in fact constantly in process of changing into other things which are not the past perceived or theorised entity. Under certain circumstances, where change is rapid and/or chaotic, A u ~A becomes positively misleading: for example if I were to say in late 1979 that “Iran is a monarchy under the Pahlavi dynasty and a major regional ally of the US” the implicit prediction contained in the present tense would be misleading. Iran was a monarchy in process of collapsing into revolutionary crisis: A & ~A.

    That said, it is enormously easy to slip from this point into utterly misleading uses, because the fact that ~A is the negation of A is utterly in- or under-determinate. An example is a bad example given by Engels in the Anti-Duhring: the seed is negated in the plant. This is true (a plant is not a seed, hence a not-seed) but has very limited predictive value: the seed may be negated by becoming a plant, or by decaying into humus, or by being eaten and digested; or it may not be negated at all, but survive as organic remains to be studied by archeologists centuries later. Identifying what the ~A is, into which A is being negated, is an empirical task, not solved by merely asserting the existence of contradiction; as, in fact, Marx pointed out in side comments at various points.

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  12. Rosa: You say you know what a contradiction is and that I do not so why do you ask? Give us your explanation of contradiction.

    Here is a contradiction: the addition of mere quantity can lead to qualitative change and vice versa. Please deal with that.

    `Moreover, the law of excluded middle does not say what you allege of it, and that is because the law of excluded middle deals with a proposition and its negation. ‘

    This is the trouble with you. I give a specific example re the universe and you simply make `contradictory’ statements. I say the law of the excluded middle excludes the middle and you say it doesn’t but deals with a proposition and its negation which is precisely excluding the middle. You cannot be argued with which is very contradictory seeing as that’s what you’ve come here for.

    Mike McNair:

    `Contradictions are ways of grasping processes of change’: Pure idealism.

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  13. Mike, thanks for that, but as I have already noted, I have read this sort of material many many times over the last 25 years, and I do not buy it.

    So, I know that dialecticians *think* that their ‘contradictions’ are: “a way of grasping processes of change”, but when it comes to the details, this does not work. [And I am not sure this has anything to do with the mathematisation of time.]

    And this cannot be right:

    “Hence the basic proposition of formal logic, that A u ~A, is only *approximately* true of anything in the perceptible world.”

    This is because ‘Av~A’ is not a proposition (since it can *only* be true, and it is in the nature of propositions that they are bivalent — that is, they can take on one of two truth values).

    But, let us assume you are right; let us take your example:

    “for example if I were to say in late 1979 that “Iran is a monarchy under the Pahlavi dynasty and a major regional ally of the US” the implicit prediction contained in the present tense would be misleading. Iran was a monarchy in process of collapsing into revolutionary crisis: A & ~A.”

    You assume the present tense is predictive, but you are plainly confusing it with the *future* tense. The sentence you gave:

    “Iran is a monarchy under the Pahlavi dynasty and a major regional ally of the US” would be predictive if it had been:

    “Iran will a monarchy under the Pahlavi dynasty and a major regional ally of the US in x days/weeks/months/years time” but it wasn’t.

    And I fail to see where you get your “A&~A” from here.

    This is quite apart from the fact that “A&~A” is not a ‘dialectical contradiction’ — a term that still awaits explanation.

    And this is equally dubious

    “This is true (a plant is not a seed, hence a not-seed) but has very limited predictive value: the seed may be negated by becoming a plant, or by decaying into humus, or by being eaten and digested; or it may not be negated at all, but survive as organic remains to be studied by archaeologists centuries later. Identifying what the ~A is, into which A is being negated, is an empirical task, not solved by merely asserting the existence of contradiction; as, in fact, Marx pointed out in side comments at various points.”

    But here the “A” you used earlier is not a negated proposition (where it was before), but an example of predicate-term negation. And, as even Aristotle knew, predicate-term negation cannot form part of a formal contradiction.

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  14. The sentence I gave shoudl of course be :

    “Iran will be a monarchy under the Pahlavi dynasty and a major regional ally of the US in x days/weeks/months/years time”.

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  15. David:

    “You say you know what a contradiction is and that I do not so why do you ask?”

    Read what I said again very carefully — I do not know what a ‘dialectical contradiction’ is.

    And it seems I am not alone — none of you do, for you have yet to explain this basic concept.

    “Give us your explanation of contradiction.”

    The simplest formal case is the conjunction of a proposition and its negation. But there are many others in logic; for example:

    [(P→Q)v(P→R)↔(P→(QvR))], or

    ~[~(Ex)(Fx&~Gx)↔(x)(Fx→Gx)]

    Where, “E” is the existential quantifier; “↔” is a biconditional sign; “(x)” is the universal quantifier; “&” stands for “and”; “v” is the inclusive “or”; “~” stands for negation; “→” is the conditional sign; “P”, “Q”, and “R” are propositional variables; “F” and “G” are one-place, first-level predicate letters; and “x” is a second-level predicate-binding variable.

    [I am assuming that these symbols have transferred correctly to the formatting of this blog!]

    In ordinary language, of course, to contradict somneone is to gain-say what they have said. The term here is not the same as in logic.

    “Here is a contradiction: the addition of mere quantity can lead to qualitative change and vice versa. Please deal with that.”

    But this is not *even* a formal contradiction (it is not *even* a contrary!) — and as a ‘law’ it is not even always true!

    Perhaps you should deal with that, first?

    “This is the trouble with you. I give a specific example re the universe and you simply make `contradictory’ statements. I say the law of the excluded middle excludes the middle and you say it doesn’t but deals with a proposition and its negation which is precisely excluding the middle. You cannot be argued with which is very contradictory seeing as that’s what you’ve come here for.”

    Well, the trouble with you is that you appear not to know very much logic, and so you are prone to making allegation about the ‘law of excluded middle’ that are incorrect.

    And I agree that you cannot argue with me until you learn some logic.

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  16. The first of my examples should of course be:

    ~[(P→Q)v(P→R)↔(P→(QvR))]

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  17. `Well, the trouble with you is that you appear not to know very much logic, and so you are prone to making allegation about the ‘law of excluded middle’ that are incorrect.

    And I agree that you cannot argue with me until you learn some logic.’

    Pure statement and insult and no engagement which is your dishonest technique.

    Quantity and quality are opposites but how come the addition of quantity can lead to qualitative transformation? This is an objective law of contradictory movement. Please address this issue.

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  18. David:

    “Pure statement and insult and no engagement which is your dishonest technique.”

    Excuse me, but you are the one who began the insults, and I always give as good as I get, often worse.

    “Quantity and quality are opposites but how come the addition of quantity can lead to qualitative transformation? This is an objective law of contradictory movement. Please address this issue.”

    They are not opposites — but even if they were, how does that make them ‘contradictory’?

    And how do you *know* (other than by reading it in Engels, or Hegel) that this is an ‘objective law’?

    It is not even true!

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  19. I have to say that looking at Rosa’s website and the vast amount of material there cetrainly proves that the quantity of the argument cetrainly hasn’t transformed into quality.

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  20. Andy:

    “I have to say that looking at Rosa’s website and the vast amount of material there certainly proves that the quantity of the argument certainly hasn’t transformed into quality.”

    Thanks for that weak joke Andy — but I’ve already made it in several of the essays that even now you refuse to read, but are quite happy to judge from a position of almost total ignorance.

    And, one could say the same for your excellent blog — but, I won’t, since I am not as impertinent as you.

    Finally, one thing is for sure — you *still* can’t respond effectively to my arguments.

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  21. Marxists are far from agreeing. A good review of the range of marxist theories of ECONOMIC CRISIS can be found in the fantastic and invaluable ‘dictionary of marxist thought’ ed. Tom Bottomore 1983.

    Todays remarkable Financial Times dripped in the excruciating tensions (if not contradictions) of the current impasse. p13 Walter Munchau on the refusal of the German leadership to reflate and how this has stymied the euro zone. Clive Cooke on Bernanke’s increasingly desperate struggle against deflation. Marke Carney, the Governor of the Canadian Central Bank on the profound disfunction of world banking and the implications of reconstruction. P17 a report on the increasing threat of governments unable to sell bonds. p18 Tony Jackson on the threat of further desperate share price falls. p10 Polish and Japanese scepticism of the value of Keynesian reflation.

    It doesn’t appear to be a well ordered system operating harmoniously

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  22. The contradiction between use and exchange values…is very useful, but Rosa will be telling me it is not actually a contradiction in a minute…or it isn’t useful.

    I certainly found Marx’s dialectical treatment of economics one of things which is really useful about his thinking.

    Capitalism broadly creates contradictions and generates new ones in over coming them…however I do accept that there is a danger of being teleological about these things.

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  23. Jesus! You go to work, go out and see a band and come back to this. Would anyone care to summarise it?

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  24. Derek:

    “The contradiction between use and exchange values…is very useful, but Rosa will be telling me it is not actually a contradiction in a minute…or it isn’t useful.”

    Where did I say it wasn’t useful?

    What I did say, or rather ask, was: why is this a contradiction?

    These items do not “struggle” with one another, so even if dialectics were true, this would not be an example of a ‘dialectical contradiction’.

    And, as I noted, according to Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov and Lenin (among many others), ‘dialectical contradictions’ consist of ‘united opposites’ which “sooner or later inevitably” turn into one another.

    So: does every use value turn into an exchange value, and does every exchange value turn into a use value?

    Or do you not give this ‘theory’ of yours much thought?

    “I certainly found Marx’s dialectical treatment of economics one of things which is really useful about his thinking.

    Capitalism broadly creates contradictions and generates new ones in over coming them…however I do accept that there is a danger of being teleological about these things.”

    Well, unfortunately for you, the evidence suggests that Marx had abandoned ‘the dialectic’ as it has been traditionally understood by the time he wrote ‘Das Kapital’. And it is not hard to see why: if dialectics were true, change could not happen.

    If you want to see this evidence, or my proof that dialectics cannot explain change, please ask.

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  25. Liam:

    “You go to work, go out and see a band and come back to this. Would anyone care to summarise it?”

    Yes. I asked a simple question: what is a ‘dialectical contradiction’ and after much prevarication, the conclusion appears to be that no one knows — or they are not saying.

    Perhaps it’s a mystery, and the ‘rational core’ still has some of the mystical husk left surrounding it?

    After asking this question of comrades now for over 25 years, and not receiving a clear answer: it’s begining to look that way.

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  26. “…according to Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov and Lenin, these opposites eventually turn into one another. ”

    Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t recall them saying that.

    Could Lichtenstein supply a quote and stop Bogarting the thread?

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  27. Prianikof:

    “Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t recall them saying that.

    Could Lichtenstein supply a quote and stop Bogarting the thread?”

    No problem:

    Hegel (Shorter Logic):

    “If, for instance, the Sophists claimed to be teachers, Socrates by a series of questions forced the Sophist Protagoras to confess that all learning is only recollection. In his more strictly scientific dialogues, Plato employs the dialectical method to show the finitude of all hard and fast terms of understanding. Thus in the Parmenides he deduces the many from the one. In this grand style did Plato treat Dialectic. In modern times it was, more than any other, Kant who resuscitated the name of Dialectic, and restored it to its post of honour. He did it, as we have seen, by working out the Antinomies of the reason. The problem of these Antinomies is no mere subjective piece of work oscillating between one set of grounds and another; it really serves to show that every abstract proposition of understanding, taken precisely as it is given, naturally veers round to its opposite.

    “However reluctant Understanding may be to admit the action of Dialectic, we must not suppose that the recognition of its existence is peculiarly confined to the philosopher. It would be truer to say that Dialectic gives expression to a law which is felt in all other grades of consciousness, and in general experience. Everything that surrounds us may be viewed as an instance of Dialectic. We are aware that everything finite, instead of being stable and ultimate, is rather changeable and transient; and this is exactly what we mean by that Dialectic of the finite, by which the finite, as implicitly other than what it is, is forced beyond its own immediate or natural being to turn suddenly into its opposite.” [Hegel (1975), pp.117-18.]

    “Everything is opposite. Neither in heaven nor in earth, neither in the world of mind nor nature, is there anywhere an abstract ‘either-or’ as the understanding maintains. Whatever exists is concrete, with difference and opposition in itself. The finitude of things with then lie in the want of correspondence between their immediate being and what they essentially are. Thus, in inorganic nature, the acid is implicitly at the same time the base: in other words its only being consists in its relation to its other. Hence the acid persists quietly in the contrast: it is always in effort to realize what it potentially is. Contradiction is the very moving principle of the world.” [Ibid., p.174.]

    Engels, Dialectics of Nature:

    “The law of the interpenetration of opposites…. [M]utual penetration of polar opposites and transformation into each other when carried to extremes….” [Engels (1954), pp.17, 62.]

    “Dialectics, so-called objective dialectics, prevails throughout nature, and so-called subjective dialectics, dialectical thought, is only the reflection of the motion through opposites which asserts itself everywhere in nature, and which by the continual conflict of the opposites and their final passage into one another, or into higher forms, determines the life of nature. Attraction and repulsion. Polarity begins with magnetism, it is exhibited in one and the same body; in the case of electricity it distributes itself over two or more bodies which become oppositely charged. All chemical processes reduce themselves — to processes of chemical attraction and repulsion. Finally, in organic life the formation of the cell nucleus is likewise to be regarded as a polarisation of the living protein material, and from the simple cell — onwards the theory of evolution demonstrates how each advance up to the most complicated plant on the one side, and up to man on the other, is effected by the continual conflict between heredity and adaptation. In this connection it becomes evident how little applicable to such forms of evolution are categories like ‘positive’ and ‘negative.’ One can conceive of heredity as the positive, conservative side, adaptation as the negative side that continually destroys what has been inherited, but one can just as well take adaptation as the creative, active, positive activity, and heredity as the resisting, passive, negative activity.” [Ibid., p.211.]

    “For a stage in the outlook on nature where all differences become merged in intermediate steps, and all opposites pass into one another through intermediate links, the old metaphysical method of thought no longer suffices. Dialectics, which likewise knows no hard and fast lines, no unconditional, universally valid ‘either-or’ and which bridges the fixed metaphysical differences, and besides ‘either-or’ recognises also in the right place ‘both this-and that’ and reconciles the opposites, is the sole method of thought appropriate in the highest degree to this stage. Of course, for everyday use, for the small change of science, the metaphysical categories retain their validity.” [Ibid., pp.212-13.]

    Engels Anti-Duhring:

    “Further, we find upon closer investigation that the two poles of an antithesis positive and negative, e.g., are as inseparable as they are opposed and that despite all their opposition, they mutually interpenetrate. And we find, in like manner, that cause and effect are conceptions which only hold good in their application to individual cases; but as soon as we consider the individual cases in their general connection with the universe as a whole, they run into each other, and they become confounded when we contemplate that universal action and reaction in which causes and effects are eternally changing places, so that what is effect here and now will be cause there and then, and vice versa.” [Engels (1976), p.27.]

    “Already in Rousseau, therefore, we find not only a line of thought which corresponds exactly to the one developed in Marx’s Capital, but also, in details, a whole series of the same dialectical turns of speech as Marx used: processes which in their nature are antagonistic, contain a contradiction; transformation of one extreme into its opposite; and finally, as the kernel of the whole thing, the negation of the negation. [Ibid., p.179.]

    Engels, Letter to Conrad Schmidt:

    “…but the theory of Essence is the main thing: the resolution of the abstract contradictions into their own instability, where one no sooner tries to hold on to one side alone than it is transformed unnoticed into the other, etc.” [Engels (1891), p.414.]

    Plekhanov. The Development of the Monist Theory of History:

    “And so every phenomenon, by the action of those same forces which condition its existence, sooner or later, but inevitably, is transformed into its own opposite….” [Plekhanov (1956), p.77.]

    Lenin, Philosophical Notebooks:

    “[Among the elements of dialectics are the following:] [I]nternally contradictory tendencies…in [a thing]…as the sum and unity of opposites…. [This involves] not only the unity of opposites, but the transitions of every determination, quality, feature, side, property into every other [into its opposite?]….

    “In brief, dialectics can be defined as the doctrine of the unity of opposites. This embodies the essence of dialectics….

    “The splitting of the whole and the cognition of its contradictory parts…is the essence (one of the ‘essentials’, one of the principal, if not the principal, characteristic features) of dialectics…. 

    “The identity of opposites…is the recognition…of the contradictory, mutually exclusive, opposite tendencies in all phenomena and processes of nature…. The condition for the knowledge of all processes of the world in their ‘self-movement’, in their spontaneous development, in their real life, is the knowledge of them as a unity of opposites. Development is the ‘struggle’ of opposites…. [This] alone furnishes the key to the self-movement of everything existing…. 

    “The unity…of opposites is conditional, temporary, transitory, relative. The struggle of mutually exclusive opposites is absolute, just as development and motion are absolute….” [Lenin (1961), pp.221-22, 357-58.]

    “Hegel brilliantly divined the dialectics of things (phenomena, the world, nature) in the dialectics of concepts…. This aphorism should be expressed more popularly, without the word dialectics: approximately as follows: In the alternation, reciprocal dependence of all notions, in the identity of their opposites, in the transitions of one notion into another, in the eternal change, movement of notions, Hegel brilliantly divined precisely this relation of things to nature…. [W]hat constitutes dialectics?…. [M]utual dependence of notions all without exception…. Every notion occurs in a certain relation, in a certain connection with all the others.” [Lenin (1961), pp.196-97.]

    “‘This harmony is precisely absolute Becoming change, — not becoming other, now this and then another. The essential thing is that each different thing [tone], each particular, is different from another, not abstractly so from any other, but from its other. Each particular only is, insofar as its other is implicitly contained in its Notion…’ Quite right and important: the ‘other’ as its other, development into its opposite.” [Ibid., p.260. Lenin is here commenting on Hegel (1995), pp.278-98, Lectures On The History Of Philosophy; Volume One: Greek Philosophy To Plato this particular quotation coming from p.285.]

    “Dialectics is the teaching which shows how Opposites can be and how they happen to be (how they become) identical, — under what conditions they are identical, becoming transformed into one another, — why the human mind should grasp these opposites not as dead, rigid, but as living, conditional, mobile, becoming transformed into one another.” [Ibid., p.109.]

    These are but a small sample, Scores of other lesser dialecticians can be quoted who say the same thing.

    You can find many of these in Essay Seven at my site;

    homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2007.htm#Dialectics-Cannot-Explain-Change

    just add an “http://”, without the quotation marks.

    There you will also find links to the Marxist Internet Archive for the quotations I have used, and details of the editions I quoted.

    Finally, I am not ‘Bogarting’ this thread; it is a legitimate question to ask of Marxist economists what a key word they keep using means. We do not let bourgeois economists get away lightly. Same applies here.

    Like

  28. Nothing will come of nothing, please don’t speak again.

    Like

  29. `I have to say that looking at Rosa’s website and the vast amount of material there cetrainly proves that the quantity of the argument cetrainly hasn’t transformed into quality.’

    Andy,

    But there is a new quality. A pile of s**t has been created out of the constant addition of meaningless words.

    Rosa: `They are not opposites — but even if they were, how does that make them ‘contradictory’?

    And how do you *know* (other than by reading it in Engels, or Hegel) that this is an ‘objective law’?

    It is not even true!’

    Quantity and quality are aknowledged as opposites by just about everybody who’s ever thought about anything on the planet. Not only that, but the most fundamental opposites of all. However, the simple addition or subtraction of quantity can give rise to a new quality and vice versa and this is a contradiction which shows that they are not simply opposites but opposites in unity and conflict with each other. The transformation of quantiy into quality and vice versa is the most general objective law of the motion of matter with an infinite number of particular proofs in the material universe. Your website being just one of them.

    Like

  30. Ah! Mr Skid — still can’t cope with my demolition of your ‘theory’, I see.

    Like

  31. And now we see the by-now-familiar irrational and emotive response emerge (peppered with scatological abuse, too); David Ellis:

    “A pile of s**t has been created out of the constant addition of meaningless words.”

    But, it is you who uses meaningless words, my friend: you have yet to explain what “dialectical contradiction” means, for example.

    “Quantity and quality are acknowledged as opposites by just about everybody who’s ever thought about anything on the planet.”

    Quote me a few of these “everybody’s”, then. [But, I rather think that you’d have done that already if you had the proof.]

    “Not only that, but the most fundamental opposites of all. However, the simple addition or subtraction of quantity can give rise to a new quality and vice versa and this is a contradiction which shows that they are not simply opposites but opposites in unity and conflict with each other.”

    How does “quantity” ‘conflict’ with “quality” if both of these are abstractions?

    And if “quantity” turns into “quality”, quality” cannot yet exist — so it cannot ‘struggle’ with anything. On the other hand, if “quality” already exists, how can “quantity” turn into it?

    Moreover, you keep telling us these ‘contradict’ one another, but you have yet to show how they do this. Do they argue with one another? Or are you using ‘contradict’ in a new, and as yet unexplained sense? If so, what is it?

    “The transformation of quantity into quality and vice versa is the most general objective law of the motion of matter with an infinite number of particular proofs in the material universe. Your website being just one of them.”

    But this ‘law’ (even if we could make sense of it) is broken far more times that it is observed in the material world — there are plenty of examples where change in “quality” is initiated by no change in “quantity”.

    Want some examples — or will they make you become even more irrational and emotional? I do not want to be responsible for causing your nervous breakdown…

    Like

  32. `But this ‘law’ (even if we could make sense of it) is broken far more times that it is observed in the material world — there are plenty of examples where change in “quality” is initiated by no change in “quantity”.’

    Now that’s a contradiction that just won’t fly and is more to do with mysticism. Water into wine, alechemy, etc.

    `Quote me a few of these “everybody’s”, then. ‘

    Try a dictionary.

    Like

  33. David:

    “Now that’s a contradiction that just won’t fly and is more to do with mysticism. Water into wine, alchemy, etc.”

    So, I was right — you *are* becoming more irrational.

    “Try a dictionary.”

    No need to, here is what the Marxist Internet Archive says:

    “Quality is the basic character or nature of something. Quantity is a variable amount of a thing, where the amount does not affect the quality (the basic nature) of what that thing is.

    “When the quantity of something changes, i.e. if a book has 100 pages as opposed to 50 pages, a quantitative change has occurred. There are times however, when the amount of change in a thing changes its very character. For example, if the book was reduced to one page, it is no longer a book. When change affects the very character of the thing, a qualitative change has occurred.

    “Further Reading: In Hegel’s Logic, Quality is the first division of Being, when the world is just one thing after another, so to speak, while Quantity is the second division, where perception has progressed to the point of recognising what is stable within the ups and downs of things. The third and final stage, Measure, the unity of quality and quantity, denotes the knowledge of just when quantitative change becomes qualitative change.”

    marxists.org/glossary/terms/q/u.htm

    [Add an “http://www” (and a dot) without the quotation marks.]

    So, no mention that these are “opposites”; indeed, for Hegel they weren’t opposites but different divisions of “Being”.

    And I can’t find one dictionary that tells us these are ‘opposites’ either. Perhaps you can tell us which one you consulted then?

    And well done for ignoring my refutation of your claim that these abstractions can ‘struggle’ with one another!

    In fact, you remind me of the Christian Fundamentalist (William Jennings Bryan) in that film of the Scopes ‘Monkey Trial’ (‘Reap the Whirlwind’) who, when faced with questions he could not answer about the contradictions in the Bible, declared that he “did not think about things that he didn’t think about”:

    “But there is also an embarrassing side to Bryan: the ‘great commoner’ was a Bible-banging fundamentalist. When officials in Dayton, Tennessee decided to roast John Scopes for teaching evolution in 1925, they called in the ageing Bryan to prosecute. The week-long trial became a national sensation and reached its climax when the defence attorney, Clarence Darrow, called Bryan to the stand and eviscerated his Biblical verities. ‘Do you believe Joshua made the sun stand still?’ Darrow asked sarcastically. ‘Do you believe a whale swallowed Jonah? Will you tell us the exact date of the great flood?’ Bryan tried to swat away the swarm of contradictions. ‘I do not think about things I don’t think about,’ he said. The New York Times called it an ‘absurdly pathetic performance’, reducing a famous American to the ‘butt of a crowd’s rude laughter’. This paunchy, sweaty figure went down as an icon of the cranky right. Today, most Americans encounter the Scopes trial and Bryan himself in a play called Inherit the Wind. I once played the role of Bryan and the director kept saying: ‘More pompous, Morone. Make him more pompous.’”

    lrb.co.uk/v30/n04/moro01_.html

    [Add an “http://www” (and a dot) without the quotation marks.]

    It seems, therefore, that you are determined to be the William Jennings Bryan of Dialectics.

    I’d hate to join with a bourgeois paper and declare that yours too is a ‘absurdly pathetic performance’, but the case for your defence gets weaker with each of your posts.

    Like

  34. Cut to me, unable to cope with your demolition of my theory. Sorry does that suggest an overwhelming sense of self-importance which is rightly your domain?

    Like

  35. Skid:

    “Cut to me, unable to cope with your demolition of my theory. Sorry does that suggest an overwhelming sense of self-importance which is rightly your domain?”

    In the sense that I can and have demolished a ‘theory’ you have uncritically swallowed, which you manifestly cannot defend, my earlier comment is the more accurate. I’ll stick to it, if that’s OK with you.

    Of course, it would be very easy to take me down a peg or two by showing where I go wrong, but none of you seem to be able or willing to do that.

    And the more you lot pevaricate, the more truthful my allegation seems to become that you are all incapable of defending this mystical ‘theory’ of yours, but have accepted it for non-rational reasons — that is, because it provides you all with consolation for the fact that Dialectical Marxism is such a long-term failure.

    That certainly accounts for the abusive, irrational and emotive response comrades in general display toward me when this ‘theory’ is attacked — David Ellis being merely the latest example.

    Like

  36. Lichtenstein:-

    “according to Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov and Lenin, these opposites eventually turn into one another. But, electrons do not turn into positrons, nor even protons.”

    Thanks for the quotations.

    But they don’t support your original assertion that Marxists argue “opposites eventually turn into one another” – An ill-defined statement, suggesting Marxism is a form of mysticism.

    The quotes do support the argument that contradictory tendencies can and do coexist, within what’s seen by positivists, as a single entity.

    e.g. Lenin ” dialectics can be defined as the doctrine of the unity of opposites. This embodies the essence of dialectics”

    Applying this, an entity is defined within limits and by how it changes under concrete conditions.

    A better scientific example might be the fact that electron/positron pairs can be created from the interaction of photons.

    But this only happens if they have sufficient energy levels and in the presence of a nucleus, which allows conservation of momentum and energy.
    This process can also be validly decribed as the time reversal of Electron-positron annihilation.

    Lichtenstein: “… I am not ‘Bogarting’ this thread; it is a legitimate question to ask of Marxist economists what a key word they keep using means. ”

    “How does exchange value “struggle” with “use value”?”

    Your words, not Marx’s. I’d suggest you re-read Capital Volume 1 for Marx’s definition of the Commodity as both use value and exchange value.

    He certainly didn’t abandon it by Vol 3. It’s central to his examination of how capitalism behaves.

    Hope this helps.

    Like

  37. Prianikof:

    “But they don’t support your original assertion that Marxists argue “opposites eventually turn into one another” – An ill-defined statement, suggesting Marxism is a form of mysticism.”

    Oh yes they do (and I agree that this implies mysticism — that is why I call this theory mystical):

    Hegel says this occurs with every finite being:

    “However reluctant Understanding may be to admit the action of Dialectic, we must not suppose that the recognition of its existence is peculiarly confined to the philosopher. It would be truer to say that Dialectic gives expression to a law which is felt in all other grades of consciousness, and in general experience. *Everything that surrounds us may be viewed as an instance of Dialectic. We are aware that everything finite, instead of being stable and ultimate, is rather changeable and transient; and this is exactly what we mean by that Dialectic of the finite, by which the finite, as implicitly other than what it is, is forced beyond its own immediate or natural being to turn suddenly into its opposite*.” [Hegel (1975), pp.117-18.]

    Since everything (other than the Absolute) is finite, it must eventually and inevitably turn into its opposite.

    Moreover, Engels says this process asserts itself everywhere in nature, and that it is part of the ‘final passage into one another’:

    “Dialectics, so-called objective dialectics, prevails throughout nature, and so-called subjective dialectics, dialectical thought, is only *the reflection of the motion through opposites which asserts itself everywhere in nature, and which by the continual conflict of the opposites and their final passage into one another, or into higher forms, determines the life of nature*.” [Dialectics of Nature, p.211.]

    Looks pretty inevitable to me, this “final passage”.

    He then underlines this:

    “For a stage in the outlook on nature where all differences become merged in intermediate steps, *and all opposites pass into one another through intermediate links*, the old metaphysical method of thought no longer suffices. Dialectics, which likewise knows no hard and fast lines, no unconditional, universally valid ‘either-or’ and which bridges the fixed metaphysical differences, and besides ‘either-or’ recognises also in the right place ‘both this-and that’ and reconciles the opposites, is the sole method of thought appropriate in the highest degree to this stage.” [Ibid., pp.212-13.]

    They all do this; no exceptions. That looks pretty inevitable to me.

    Again all antagonistic processes do this too:

    “Already in Rousseau, therefore, we find not only a line of thought which corresponds exactly to the one developed in Marx’s Capital, but also, in details, a whole series of the same dialectical turns of speech as Marx used: processes which in their nature are antagonistic, contain a contradiction; transformation of one extreme into its opposite; and finally, as the kernel of the whole thing, the negation of the negation. [Anti-Duhring, p.179.]

    Since, all processes are like this, this includes everything in nature. To cap it all he adds:

    “…but the theory of Essence is the main thing: the resolution of the abstract contradictions into their own instability, where *one no sooner tries to hold on to one side alone than it is transformed unnoticed into the other, etc.*” [Engels (1891), Letter to Conrad Schmidt, p.414.]

    This looks pretty inevitable, too.

    Plekhanov is even clearer:

    “And so every phenomenon, by the action of those same forces which condition its existence, *sooner or later, but inevitably, is transformed into its own opposite*….” [Plekhanov (1956) The Development of the Moist Theory of History, p.77.]

    Lenin tells us that this process is an ‘absolute’:

    “The unity…of opposites is conditional, temporary, transitory, relative. The struggle of mutually exclusive opposites is absolute, just as development and motion are absolute….” [Lenin (1961) Philosophical Notebooks, pp., 357-58.]

    Then he says this happens to everything:

    “Hegel brilliantly divined the dialectics of things (phenomena, the world, nature) in the dialectics of concepts…. This aphorism should be expressed more popularly, without the word dialectics: approximately as follows: In the alternation, reciprocal dependence of all notions, in the identity of their opposites, in the transitions of one notion into another, in the eternal change, movement of notions, Hegel brilliantly divined precisely this relation of things to nature…. [W]hat constitutes dialectics?…. [M]utual dependence of notions all without exception…. Every notion occurs in a certain relation, in a certain connection with all the others.” [Lenin (1961), pp.196-97.]

    If so, nothing is exempt. That in turn means that nothing can escape from this form of development, so it *is* inevitable.

    Other dialecticians are even more explicit; I can quote those too if you want.

    “A better scientific example might be the fact that electron/positron pairs can be created from the interaction of photons.”

    But, according to the above comrades these ‘opposites’ should turn into one another; do they?

    I think not.

    Do they even ‘struggle’?

    No luck there, either!

    “But this only happens if they have sufficient energy levels and in the presence of a nucleus, which allows conservation of momentum and energy.

    This process can also be validly described as the time reversal of Electron-positron annihilation.”

    Well, as far as I can see, this refutes the above dialecticians. Strange as it might seem, I can live with that.

    “Your words, not Marx’s. I’d suggest you re-read Capital Volume 1 for Marx’s definition of the Commodity as both use value and exchange value.”

    It was in fact an inference from the things other comrades here have said in earlier posts. They alleged that opposites ‘struggle’ with one another, and they used the example of exchange and use value. So, my comment was in reply to them. I was not suggesting that Marx argued this way.

    But, we can now ask what Marx in fact meant by the ‘contradiction’ between use and exchange value. Do these struggle with one another? If not, then they can’t ‘contradict’ one another. If they do, then how it that possible?

    We can also ask the same about the alleged ‘contradiction’ between the forces and relations of production? Do they turn into one another? They should do if the above dialecticians are correct.

    Do they even ‘struggle’ with one another? If not, then Lenin was wrong. If they do, how do they do this?

    “He certainly didn’t abandon it by Vol 3. It’s central to his examination of how capitalism behaves.”

    Well, I deny this. I do not think ‘the dialectic’ helps us understand capitalism in any way — or, indeed, how to change it.

    Moreover, I did not allege that Marx abandoned this theory in volume three; I alleged he abandoned the ‘dialectic’ as it is traditionally understood in volume one.

    So, no, your comments did not help — but thanks anyway!

    Like

  38. Sorry to be a killjoy but this discussion is becoming a little bit abstruse so I’m knocking the conversation about dialectics on the head. Anyone wishing to continue it can visit Rosa’s site. If anyone would like to return to the substance of Will’s article please feel free.

    Like

  39. They should in fact go to RevLeft.

    Like

  40. Right at the top Derek Wall says:

    “my book Babylon and Beyond looks at different schools of anti-capitalist economics.”

    I wuld just like to say it really is a very good book, and if you haven’t read it, you chould get a copy.

    Like

  41. Looks like no one wants to discuss ‘abstruse’ economics, and would perhaps prefer to take me on.

    An open invitation to do just that awaits at RevLeft

    http://www.revleft.com/vb/philosophy-f33/index.html

    Just add an “http://” to the front (without the quotation marks).

    Like

  42. Looks like the software added an http etc for me!

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