Ken Livingstone by grewlike.In some jobs you can get sacked for losing a USB stick with a couple of spreadsheets. In other lines of work you get promoted for supervising the  summary execution of a random, slightly dark skinned tube traveller. If you pull the trigger and meet later with your mates to give an account of the incident at variance from the evidence of every other witness you get a bit of gardening leave on full pay and return to work without a stain on your reputation. With the generous pension arrangements, good starting salary and opportunities for lots of overtime it’s not surprising that a lot of people find police work an interesting and rewarding career.

Another bonus is that when you do blow the head off someone you can rest safe in the knowledge that the state will circle the wagons to protect you. Sir Michael Wright who presided over the inquest into the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes by the Metropolitan Police prevented the jury from reaching the verdict of unlawful killing. When the de Menezes family rightly withdrew their cooperation from the planned farce Wright agreed with the killers’ lawyers that news of this be kept secret. The jury returned the only verdict available to them that would show their censure of the killer cops. They supplemented the open verdict with a series of responses to questions which indicated their scepticism about the police version of events.

Cressida Dick who had supervised the execution told the inquest: “If you ask me whether I think anybody did anything wrong or unreasonable on the operation, I don’t think they did.”

In living memory Ken Livingstone would probably have held the opinion that a police execution and officers presenting evidence contradicted by everyone else might have been a bit more than wrong or unreasonable. Not anymore. According to the Daily Telegraph he “hailed Ms Dick as a “potential” Metropolitan Police Commissioner and added that she was one of the “most talented” officers he had worked with.” If that is talent what does incompetence look like? Three, four or five innocent dead people?

Livingstone’s remarks were made in an interview to BBC radio the morning after the verdict. His mission at the moment seems to be to defend the reputation of Ian Blair, former top London cop and if that means helping killers get off the hook without even a loss of pay he’s up for it.

The estimable Gareth Pierce offers a much more realistic judgement. In her comments on the BBC quoted in the Telegraph she says: “Ms Dick was responsible for 25 “serious and catastrophic” failures which contributed to the killing.

She dismissed Mr Livingstone’s claim that little more was known about the incident as a result of the inquest and said the restrictions on the verdicts which the jury was permitted to consider were “extraordinary”.

“Left to their own devices to write their own verdict, I’m quite sure the jury would have said ‘The police killed him, every person who had a role in it played their part and these are the areas where we think there was gross negligence or worse’.”

An inevitable compromise of getting elected as mayor of a city is that you have to work closely with the police and take some responsibility for policing policy. That’s one thing. Another thing completely is to leap to the defence of a group of people who have reasserted the state’s right to kill and cover up. That’s what Ken Livingstone has done.

35 responses to “Ken Livingstone – defend cops' right to summarily execute tube passengers”

  1. Did Ken even know about the shoot-to-kill policy? No, he should be outraged at this – it wasn’t revealed to the GLA or parliament.

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  2. What I don’t get is why the lawyers, media etc. make such a big deal about whether the warning “armed police” was or wasn’t given before Jean-Charles de Menezes was shot seven times in the head. Of course, the fact the police were shown to have lied on this issue is interesting, and suggests that they lied about a whole lot more as well, but the discussion of the inquest suggests that it is OK if they shout this “warning” and then shoot you. Of course, it wouldn’t have made any bloody difference to J-C de M.

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  3. Yes – what was JCdM supposed to have done? “Armed police? My goodness, this must be some sort of case of mistaken identity! Let me assure you, sir, that I am most definitely not the person you’re looking for, whoever that may be.” (Said from a seated position, of course.)

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  4. In order to reach a verdict of unlawful killing the jury would have had to be sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the actual officers who pulled the trigger knew that Jean-Charles de Menezes was definitely not a suicide bomber.

    There isn’t a single piece of evidence which indicates that any one of them had any doubt, which is why the Coroner was correct in law in telling the jury that they could not return an unlawful killing verdict. Gareth Pierce is being irresponsible here in implicitly arguing such a verdict could have been returned.

    This doesn’t mean that the police should have shot Jean-Charles de Menezes.

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  5. I thought some of your mates in RR think the sunshine shines out of Livingstone’s arse, cos apparently he’s a ‘progressive’?!

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  6. David – the main point of the piece is that Livingstone’s principal involvement on this issue has been to defend the police more vociferously than they defend themselves. That is problematical and deserves to be criticised. In any case shouldn’t it have been open to the jury to make the decision?

    Doug – there are different assessments of Livingstone in Respect. If you have a look at the discussion on the congestion charge you will see that supporters of Socialist Resistance are openly expressing opposing views on the issue. For some of us the right to dissent and do it in the open is a positive. I’ve never understood this quest for total agreement and keeping political differences behind closed doors. Maybe you could explain why it’s so politically helpful.

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  7. Liam – technically the jury could reach any verdict it liked (see Bushel’s case of 1670) in the sense that they would not be held liable if the verdict was manifestly unjustified. To take a ridiculous example, I suppose they could have found that Jean-Charles de Menezes was stillborn.

    However the Coroner had to guide them according to the law and in this case it was plain that there was no justification in law for a verdict of unlawful killing.

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  8. David:

    ” jury would have had to be sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the actual officers who pulled the trigger knew that Jean-Charles de Menezes was definitely not a suicide bomber.”

    Surely that is wrong.

    For the killing to have been unlawful it was only necessary to establish that at some point in the chain of command the police were reckless as to whether or not Jean-Charles de Menezes represented such a clear and present danger that lethal force was reasonable and proportionate.

    incidently, do coroner’s juries have to beleive something beyond reasonable doubt? I would have thought it was on balance of probability.

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  9. Liam

    In RR you’re having to make a virtue out of necessity – if you actually have to have a common agreement on what key aspects of your beliefs/policies to present to the public, your fragile unity would disintegrate. On the one hand the Galloway/Newman axis moving at a rate of knots towards NL and people like Livingston, on the other hand people like you not deluded enough to believe that Labour offers anything but a complete dead end now.

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  10. “For the killing to have been unlawful it was only necessary to establish that at some point in the chain of command the police were reckless as to whether or not Jean-Charles de Menezes represented such a clear and present danger that lethal force was reasonable and proportionate.”

    Shit, isn’t that what I said?

    Phil W – one reason for concentrating on the actions of individual officers is that that is all that could be done within the forum of the inquest, but I’d agree that one aspect of the news management of this affair is to move attention away from the legality or otherwise of a recklessly applied shoot-to-kill policy and those up the chain of command thereby implicated in the killing.

    Liam – I’d have to agree with Doug. Saying “Freedom is the right to think differently” is not an answer to why socialists should stay in an organisation I might describe as a heterogenous mass if it had any mass left.

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  11. even PASOK chieftain Papandreou in Greece called the assasination of Alexandros Grigoropoulos murder

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  12. Doug / Skidmarx – and what do you suggest I do? Join the SWP?

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  13. Liam – you’re being silly. Surely you can come up with a better argument than that. Something like: the left in RR recognizes that Livingstone is a mixed bag – that’s why we’re not in the same organization as him – but just as one would vote for New Labour in places where there is no credible left of Labour challenge, in the same fashion do we support Livingstone. RR being a heterogenous “broad party”, different people have different estimations of Livingstone’s role. It’s a point of debate, which we think is a healthy sign in any living organization.

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  14. Of course, I don’t buy it but it’s sad to see you unable to defend your own organization except by silly schoolyard taunts.

    In any case, the difficulty you face is that while you make a virtue out of “pluralism”, what it really means is that whoever has the highest profile and the biggest megaphone (or most widely listened to radio show), in reality sets the public image of RR. Nobody outside of your left circle – maybe even more broadly within RR – has any idea of your criticisms of Livingstone. For all intents and purposes, everything that Galloway says IS RR policy. That’s the problem with an avoidance of accountability – you lot will campaign for him, he’ll do what he wants. I think the British term is “dogs body”.

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  15. Redbedhead – it’s true that Respect has retained some of the structural problems inherited from its previous incarnations. It’s also true that Labourism is a pole of attraction inside it. And no one in Respect needs reminding of it many weaknesses.

    Despite this it remains, at the moment – and that’s an important caveat- the only meaningful left of Labour politically broad formation. Even its best friends have to acknowledge that the Campaign For A New Workers’ Party is a wholly owned SP franchise. Beyond that what is there little else.

    In the next few days, touch wood, I’ll be posting a document from SR on Marxists working in broad parties. That will go into more detail on some of the issues you raise.

    As an aside -this insistence on describing Respect as “Respect Renewal” reminds me of the type of unionist politician in the north of Ireland who had just enough manners not to refer to “papists” when speaking in public but instead talked about “ROMAN Catholics” to convey their contempt.

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  16. Liam – that’s better.

    Apologies for the “RR”. Habit. In future I’ll just give it one “R”.

    “structural problems inherited from its previous incarnations.” This seems to me to be an understatement, since it was the source of numerous arguments – from Salma’s desire to break publicly with GG over Big Brother, to the SWP’s arguments over the drift in Respect, that blew up last year. Until and unless Respect can expand to such a degree and in a way that GG can be forced to become accountable (and I doubt it will be otherwise than forced – which means he has to think he’s losing more than gaining by ditching the whole project), you will be saddled with a problem that will inhibit your growth amongst principled left-of-Labour activists of all stripes.

    As for the draw towards “Labourism” – that in itself isn’t terrible, if it is a by-product of having a dynamic and growing membership, thus reflecting that people are moving in practise prior to fully theorizing its significance. If, however, it is simply a drift back to the more successful fold of the Labour Party – well, ’nuff said. Galloway’s recent pronouncements are of concern to many of you, no doubt, because it seems to indicate the latter. Perhaps you disagree but it seems there is a real danger that Respect will simply become another, bigger PJP.

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  17. “Nobody outside of your left circle – maybe even more broadly within RR – has any idea of your criticisms of Livingstone.”

    Perhaps it’s because of the fact that you live in Canada that you think you can make such statements. Had you listened to George’s radio show the other week you would have clearly heard him state that he thought that Livingstone was wrong to defend the Met over this shooting. So you see both Liam and George are in agreement over this issue. But you should never let the facts get in the way of a good polemic.

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  18. Well, Clive, Liam didn’t say it either – that GG had criticized Livingstone – and he is in the UK. Clearly not everybody in Britain listens to GG’s show.
    But don’t let facts get in the way of a snide comment that fails to address anything substantive.

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  19. Well it fails to address anything other than the fact that you don’t seem to know what you are talking about. But no change there. But since I think more people listen to George’s show than read Liam’s blog (sorry Liam) then I think it’s all fairly out in the open.

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  20. Sure, whatever, Clive. Notice how the tone of the discussion deteriorated to name calling when you became involved? Do you think that’s a coincidence? Allow me to demonstrate productive debate technique:

    Clive (rude): You know nothing.
    Me: sure, whatever, Clive.

    Clive (productive): Actually, GG isn’t as close to Livingstone as you seem to think. Just the other day on his radio show he criticized KL over his support for the police in the Menezes case.
    Me: Oh, that’s interesting and definitely positive. The point does still remain, however, that GG remains unaccountable. And having positioned himself closely to Livingstone in the recent past – even given previously supportive statements about the Met & Ian Blair – that he & Respect will be tarred with the same brush…etc
    Clive (productive): I think you’re wrong because…etc

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  21. “Doug / Skidmarx – and what do you suggest I do? Join the SWP?”

    Excellent idea.

    I’ve always found it annoying that Protestants, the media and in fact Catholic priests tend to refer to Catholics as Roman Catholics. The Church, however, didn’t use an undemocratic coup to seize the name from a majority of those previously known as Catholics [I’m willing to accept this may be inaccurate if an expert in early church history wants to correct me]. So the initial name of your split is about the most polite moniker I’m likely to ascribe to it, not to try to be particularly rude, but respect means something rather different.

    redbedhead – if you check back a few weeks, I mentioned that the last time I heard GG interview KL he avoided the subject of de Menezes, and abruptly cut off Karl from Plaistow when he said he wished that GG had raised it. So I think you’re absolutely right to suggest that GG is less motivated by principle than by what will advance his personal cause (and I hope I’m not distorting what you’re saying)

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  22. Skidmarx, is of course, being disingenuous again as he knows full well that the entire show was being moderated for legal reasons but once again don’t let facts get in the way of an polemic.

    And Redbedhead – I’m not sure how why think I’m being rude. Just factual. You seem to know nothing about what you are writing about in this case. Just thought that may be because you lived in Canada but you seem to think you know more about an organisation you are not a member of than people who are. Galloway has criticised Livingstone over the De Menezes shooting, Respect as a whole has made clear our position on the Livingstone and the Met, Liam has and others have. We are all of a piece on this one. Shock horror – Respect agree on something! So please don’t try and spin an angle out of this one. It just makes you look a little silly.

    But if you felt I was being rude, then I apologise.

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  23. Skidmarx: “I’ve always found it annoying that Protestants, the media and in fact Catholic priests tend to refer to Catholics as Roman Catholics.”

    Hang on.

    Roman catholic is a perfectly reasonable description of catholics who also recognise the primacy of the bishop of Rome.

    This would be in distinction to other Christians who self-identify as catholics, such as the tractarians or oxford movement, who also consider themselves as part of the “church universal” and thus follow the apostolic succession and the catholic sacrements, but do not accept the primacy of the papacy, and hold to the thirty nine articles of Anglicanism.

    Wider than those who self identify as catholics, buit are outsdie the Romam communion, within Anglicanism there has always been a tradition of referring to the three confessions (Anglicanism, Roman catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy) as all being catholic churches becasue of their following the principle of apostolic sucession in the ordination of priests, instead of the more democratic notions of protestantism where there is no interlocutor between God and man, and the clergy rise from the laity.

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  24. Not to mention, BTW, the whole rag bag army of other types of traditionalist catholics, who are not Roman Catholics, such as Sedevacantists lik the Society of Pious X, who hold that the See of Rme is vacant;

    and also the catholi sects who hold that there is a different Bishop of Rome from the one that the Roman cathoic church recognises, such as the smal band of followers of Pope Michael (David Bawden), and rag tag and bobtail outfits like the Palmarian Catholic Church.

    So it is completely reasonable to describe a Christian who follows the Catholic Church with its headquarters in the vatican as Roman catholics.

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  25. Clive: “you seem to think you know more about an organisation you are not a member of than people who are.”

    If I’m so off the mark, why did Liam write: “it’s true that Respect has retained some of the structural problems inherited from its previous incarnations. It’s also true that Labourism is a pole of attraction inside it.” This was exactly in relation to the current discussion about GG’s orientation towards Livingstone. So, does Liam also not know what he is talking about?

    In any case, fine, GG criticized Livingstone on his show. Good for him. There is nothing about the Menezes case anywhere on the Respect website. You positioned yourselves very close to KL during the election, including speaking on joint platforms, as part of campaigning for him. I would think you’d want more than just a mention on GG’s show for fear of being associated with his present stance.

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  26. Clive – “Skidmarx, is of course, being disingenuous again as he knows full well that the entire show was being moderated for legal reasons”

    I don’t think I am being disingenuous. This is the first time I’ve seen one of GG’s supporters mention legal moderation. I think in one of my comments I mentioned that as a possibility, though I think I also said that that hadn’t stopped Galloway giving his opinion for the previous twenty minutes. While I’m on the subject, the radio show’s theme tune never changes and makes the show sound up to date from the start. When TV shows go on for years they usually update their theme music after a while.

    Andy Newman – my point is that “Catholic” suffices as a description in all but the most perverse of cases, the use of the word Roman pretends that there are other Catholics they might be confused with and identifies those brought as as Catholics with the Church when that isn’t necessarily the case [ In Christopher Brookmyre’s novels you can find several references to the Catholic Church in Scotland’s claim to represent a million Catholics].
    Incidentally, have you changed your view on the de Menezes shooting from when we debated it on the splinteredsunrise thread “The Assassination Of Commissioner Blair”? You seem now to agree with the position I put forward then.

    redbeadhead – I saw footage last night on The Daily Show of someone heckling Stephen Harper with the words “What are you afraid of, sir?”. You do seem to live in a very polite country.

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  27. Skidmarx

    I hardly think that the “high church” Anglo-catholics in the Church of England count as a perverse case, they are a very mainstream part of Anglicanism, and see themselves as Catholics.

    I find it entirely plausible that someone from a more protestant tradition would consider both high Anglicans and also Roman catholics as both being catholics.

    It is no more significnance than saying someone is a follower of the Russian Ortthodox church.

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  28. skidmarx – we are dreadfully polite. Thanks for noticing.

    best regards, yours sincerely
    redbedhead

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  29. Noone is confused when one says “Catholic”. So the addition is almost always to make a point. There are a billion Catholics in the world, though many are not in their own mind followers of the Church.Hard to confuse.

    And what about de Menezes?

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  30. i haven’t changed my mind over de menzses, nor am i saying anything different.

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  31. Clive Searle:- “Had you listened to George’s radio show the other week you would have clearly heard him state that he thought that Livingstone was wrong to defend the Met over this shooting.”

    Conveniently forgetting the Newsnight interview not long before the de Menezes shooting, in which Galloway said “Shoot them” in relation to Tube bombers.
    Unfortunately, the chances of an armed police officer being able to preempt a live bomber are vanishingly small. Even when operating on “intelligence”, they appear to be too dim to tell the difference between a Brazilian and a Somali.
    Also Galloway seems to have severe problems distinguishing between the armed attack dogs of the capitalist state and a “peoples militia”, let alone a workers militia.
    Quite sad that so many ex-Trots: Thornett, Searle, Hoveman , Ovenden, Francis, Newman et al are too sycophantic to openly criticise their leader on this one.
    But then they demand completely open debates of their politcal opponents and close ranks themselves.

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  32. Andy Newman – Having checked back I can see that your statements can be made consistent; what I think surprised me is the way your emphasis had changed, from excluding Ian Blair as a suspect, to saying those in the chain of command proved reckless should be held responsible. Obviously this can happen in polemical debates.
    I still disagree, thinking that command responsibility for imposing a shoot-to-kill policy without adequate control to prevent this outcome at least goes to the top of the Met; if that’s not the law then it ought to be.

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  33. “If you pull the trigger and meet later with your mates to give an account of the incident at variance from the evidence of every other witness you get a bit of gardening leave on full pay and return to work without a stain on your reputation.With the generous pension arrangements, good starting salary and opportunities for lots of overtime it’s not surprising that a lot of people find police work an interesting and rewarding career.”

    And precisely, what’s a ickle matter of perjury between mates….

    But not only good career prospects you end up being promoted if you are one of the top brass…..

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  34. Skidmarx

    I certainly did not say what you attribuite to me: “in the chain of command proved reckless should be held responsible.”

    What i said was: “From what I gather, the command and control systems were tested in operational conditions that they were not designed for, and their failures should not necessarily end careers of officers who had never expected to find themselves in that position.”

    I simply cannot see how you an confuse those two positions as being the same.

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  35. Andy Newman – I thought I was just summarising what you said, here, starting with the words “For the killing…”
    Fine if you want to say that noone in the Met should be held responsible, and all that is needed is to tighten up procedures, I disagree with you all the more.

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