The eternal problem facing small far left propaganda groups on big demonstrations is that of letting the world know you are there and have something distinctive to say. Some address this by having loud, colourful contingents with flags and megaphones. Others hold mini rallies of their own at the start and end of events in the hope of insulating their followers from the cruel outside world and maybe attracting the naively curious. Others encourage their members to accost passers by, ask them to sign a petition, charge them a small fee for the privilege (“to help with more campaigning – honest guv’nor”) and then try to flog a paper. All tried and tested methods.image

Now Christ only knows what sort of brainstorming, blue sky out of the box thinking ever led anyone to think it was a good idea to bring along the flag flown by the Israeli state’s murder machine to a demonstration protesting against the carnage in Gaza. It’s the emblem of a racist, colonial apartheid state at the best of times and when that same army has been industrially slaughtering a population it had helped expel from its land that is not the best of times. Step forward the Alliance for Workers Liberty. They even have it on their website.

When General Sir Richard Dannatt, the chief of the British Army, said in a recent interview about how “liberal interventionism has had, and possibly still does have, considerable support” he could have beeen setting out the traditional programme of much of the British labour movement. Active consent, silence or mealy mouthed mumbling about how sectarianism is the main obstacle to workers’ unity are the customary responses to muscular imperialism in this part of the world. It’s rare though for members of a soi-disant Marxist current to openly side with imperial adventures and rarer still for anyone on the left to roll up to a demonstration with the flag of a state in the middle of an orgy of war crimes and then whine about how they were misunderstood and censored.

When a war between a dispossessed and blockaded people and an imperialist proxy is happening no one should need more than a nanosecond’s thought to work out what side to take. Sub-Buddhist liberal twaddle about both sides being as bad as the other is just another way of saying that the imperialists might have a point. Slogans like “No to the IDF / No to Hamas” establish a political symmetry between the two of the sort that Mark Regev has been trying to create between Hamas’ pitiful rockets and the IDF’s arsenal. The only valid slogans at moments like that are those which put demands on the aggressor or one’s own government. Slyly trying to distinguish yourself from those being slaughtered is contemptible opportunism

Part of the barmy justification for this is that “Israel’s existence is potentially (not currently, but potentially) under threat, and its people have a consciousness of this.” To which the only possible reply has to be “it’s not but we wish it was in order that a democratic secular Palestinian state can be created.

Is it right to tear away someone’s placards, rip them up and stop them carrying offensive flags?  If a group wishes to defend the Israeli state at a pro-Palestinian demonstration they are setting out to make themselves pariahs and scabs and can’t legitimately complain when they are treated as such. Airy fairy tosh about freedom of speech belongs in a university debate during events like this and it’s not possible to condemn the actions of anyone who acted to prevent the display of these Zionist apologia. Those who were misguided and pro-Israeli enough to indulge in that sort of stupidity may come out of it feeling a bit self-righteous and a little bit more blinded to what is obvious to the rest of the world but they deserve all the opprobrium that they get.

We look forward to them making their case flying Palestinian flags at a Zionist rally.

Something from Stuart here.

The Socialist Resistance statement on Gaza is here.

 

125 responses to “Our unique selling point – the Israeli flag”

  1. Best ever post on this site

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  2. I voted liberal imperialist tosser (with regard to AWL)

    But just to be a controversialist, what does one think of the presence of Israeli flags in the context of demonstrations such as this


    Do you kick the “left zionists” out of the anti-war movement? Especially as mass refusal has the potential to fuck-up the occupation – even if it is motivated by the desire to save Israel’s soul, as much as it is motivated by concerns for Palestinian rights.

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  3. It’s different if you are in Israel. Any moron could have predicted what the impact of carrying the Israeli flag on a demonstration in Europe was going to be. That was probably the juvenile point.

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  4. Indeed, hence my vote for liberal imperialist tosser. I’m a rubbish controversialist.

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  5. Do you remember the classic AWL stunt during the Kosovo war when the AWL started marching with the anti-war demo, then half way through switched sides and joined the pro-war KLA/UTC counter-demo!

    Anyway, I don’t think that the “no to hams, no to UDF” placcard crossed the line. i don’t agree with it, but it is within the mainstream spectrum of labour movement opinion.

    Even on the issue of the Israeli flag, you would need to be careful,. because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a naive anti-war israeli might have brought the flag trying to demonstarte that there are isralis who oppose the war.

    But clearly the AWL were out to provoke in an insensitive and sectarian way, and deserve all the trouble they got.

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  6. Incidently – off topic Liam, but in the Amicus/Unite election, faircloth has withdrawn, and the SWP are now backing Jerry Hicks.

    Jer’s campiagn were trying to reach you to ask you to post something on your blog, but didn’t have yr phone number to hand.

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  7. Spot-on. I pretty much put the same political arguments and position in my post yesterday (as this argument No to the IDF/ No to Hamas was pissing me off) but it lacked the humour and the fully justified sarcasm…..

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  8. Wrong Harpy. It’s not sarcasm. It’s contempt.
    Andy – they usually send me the stuff by e mail.

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  9. Fair enough …. my mistake… contempt is also fully justified.

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  10. awl = scabs.

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  11. As usual it seems futile to engage with Liams typical stalinist lies, but…

    At best Liam’s report only gives half the story. Our comrade who took the Israel flag to the demo, did it as a concious political statement, if you’re remotely interested you can read about it on our website. What’s missing from Liams report was that the point Robin was making was to carry the Palestine and Israel flags together. I realise this might be quite a subtle point for you tossers who revel in the potential extermination of jews, but there you are. If you’re gonna report something on here at least be accurate.

    On the Sheffield demo the placard that was ripped up said:

    “Solidarity with Women Workers and the left, No to the IDF, No to HAMAS”

    Which part of that slogan does any genuine socialist on the planet object to? And even if you object why cheerlead such polical censorship?

    Andy’s “story” about the Kosova war demos is another typical lie -it never happened.

    Let’s be clear about this, our comrades have stood night after night at the demos in London, attended every other demo around the country that we physically could and argued our politics. Our line has been the same throughout- we are against the Israeli state and it’s bombing and invasion of Gaza, we are for a just settlement based on the 1967 borders, we are for maximum solidarity with workers, feminists, lgbt activists in Palestine and Israel.

    Not quite sure how this makes us imperialists and scabs.

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  12. Martin Ohr: while we marched against the Kosova war the AWL gathered just off Trafalgar Square, at the foot of the Mall, on the pro-KLA, pro-war counter picket. Your organisation was there under the Stars and Stripes, Union Jack, and European Union flag.

    I can’t confirm the bit Andy describes of you going on one demo and then to the counter picket. But on the counter picket the AWL definitely were.

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  13. We look forward to them making their case flying Palestinian flags at a Zionist rally.

    Should anti-imperialists really be congratulating themselves if they’re only a little better than Zionists? I’m not sure about the substantive issue; I can see why someone might be genuinely offended by an Israeli flag, but I don’t know if it’s often a good idea to provide opportunities to cast the Left as undemocratic.

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  14. NAS,

    That is simply untrue, we didn’t attend any pro-war demos.

    Our position at the time is a matter of public record, you can read it in WL55,56 and 57. Obviously we didn’t support the butcher Milosevic, uniquely amongst the left, our solidarity with oppressed people doesn’t depend on a mythical sliding scale of imperialism. Our slogans at the time were along the lines of “Stop the Bombing, No to Nato, No to Milosevic/Arm the Kosovars”

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  15. I recommend this short conference diary from April ’99 to readers here in rebuttal to Nas’ lies

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  16. Martin Ohr: I’m afraid you’ve been misled. Your members were on the pro-KLA protest which had banners supporting the Nato action. Lots of us saw you.

    As for slogans, how about “100,000 young men slaughtered” – on the front of your paper regurgitating the Nato lie. As with carrying the Israeli flag you can wrap this up in as much Third Campism as you like. The truth is you spread pro-war lies.

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  17. “tossers who revel in the potential extermination of jews”

    ++++++++++++

    That is a rather serious charge. And not based in any reality whatsoever.

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  18. I think the front page in question might still be in a file above my old desk at Socialist Worker.

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  19. Kevin, I see the story is changing already to awl being on the same demo as pro-nato banners, I wonder how far this still has to go to get at the truth. The fact is -just as we don’t support Israel, we didn’t support the Nato bombing. You can dress it up in all sorts of sophistry but whatever way you try to say it, it’s still a lie.

    To repeat again, one awl comrade carried an Israel flag and a palestine flag to show solidarity with workers and activists in both states. I wouldn’t have done it myself for risk of being physically assaulted, but I get the point he was making -so did lots of people who were on the protest. One or two extreme elements called the police in and had him removed: Kevin do you support the police removing demonstrators? Would you extend this to the Gush Shalom activists who wear both flags on their badges and banners?

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  20. Martin Ohr

    I haven’t changed my story at all – and have been through this with several AWL members over the years.

    Front page: “100,000 young men slaughtered” in 72 point.

    And your outfit was on the pro-intervention demonstration under EU, US and British flags.

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  21. Martin

    Regrading the Kosolvo war, I saw with my own eyes members of your organisation on the anti-war march, who i later saw on the pro-NATO counter demonstration opposite Trafalgar Square.

    Your banner was surrounded by US and Nato flags, and you were hand in hand with the fascist KLA/UTC.

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  22. Yes, Andy/Kev it’s definitely true we were on the pro-war demo with our banners “Stop the bombing, no to nato” makes perfect sense.

    Still no-one has explained what was wrong with our slogan that were ripped up by the sheffield PSC people, cheered on by SWP and PR: “Solidarity with Women Workers and the left, No to the IDF, No to HAMAS” why part of this does anyone on here object to?

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  23. Martin Ohr

    No. Martin. Your slogan on the pro-intervention counter-protest was “arm the Kosovans”.

    That was also on your front page.

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  24. “No to the IDF, No to HAMAS”

    What’s wrong with this? It equates the IDF with Hamas, i.e. the oppressed with the oppressor. Whatever you think of Hamas, this equation is completely wrong and outrageous, given the power relations involved.

    AWL hacks generally accuse anyone who doesn’t simply lick the arse of imperialism of ‘Stalinism’. But there is a whiff of Stalinism in Andy Newman’s points about the KLA being simply ‘fascist’.

    Fact: the Kosovar Albanians were oppressed under Serb nationalist rule and there was a project to drive them out of their own country. That oppression was comparable to that of the Kurds in Iraq.

    Just because imperialism decided that Greater Serb nationalism was a destabilising force in the Balkans and had to be curbed, and used the Kosovar issue to force that to a conclusion, does not make the Kosova case for removing that oppression any less legitimate.

    It is no accident that there was a close and friendly relationship between Israel and Serbia at that time – based on shared hatred for peoples whose dominant culture is Islamic.

    Imperialism used the Kurdish issue to attack Iraq. That does not mean we should imply that the Iraqi Kurdish struggle is not legitimate, even if Kurdish leaders have been bribed, co-opted and used by imperialism. Ditto for Kosova under the late, unlamented Milosevic regime.

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  25. ID,

    Saying that ‘No to the IDF, No to Hamas’ equates IDF with Hamas is faintly ridiculous. I realise that most so-called marxists appear to have trouble holding two seperate thoughts together at once when it comes to international issues- but you are consistently much better than that.

    There’s an argument to be had that Hamas are objectively worse than the Israeli state -even in its most zionist form. Were they equally armed then Hamas would wreak much worse damage on the world than Israel have ever tried to. But it’s a facile argument. Since socialists can oppose all sorts of things without having to decide which is worst.

    The censorship we suffered on the sheffield protest demostrates that currently no criticism of Hamas is allowed, fundamentally its tragic -whatever you views on single/twin whatever state solution- that socialists cannot criticise a disgusting anti-working class right wing religous movement. Lets make no mistake were we -ie the readers and posters on this site- organised in Gaza we’d be killed by Hamas.

    Sadder still is that PR, SWPand now Respect activists not only do not dare criticise Hamas, but they cheerlead the censorship of those who do. Shame.

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  26. In that slogan you deliberately set out to make equivalent the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas, with the Israeli arial bombardment and then invasion of Gaza. These actions are utterly different in their volume, scale and horror (setting aside any disagreements about motives and underlying morality).

    It also obscures the cause of the conflict, and directs people to find the origin in the actions of Hamas, when in fact the conflict predates the existence of Hamas. Moreover, IDF and Hamas are not equivalent entities.

    If your objections to Hamas are specifically to the religious basis of its politics – and consistent with objections to religious parties everywhere, then “No to Mafdal. No to Hamas” makes more sense. And then what? Do you support the blockade of Gaza designed to cause Palestinian overthrow of Hamas? If not, then what content, beyond attention-seeking, does your “No to Hamas” slogan actually have?

    In Israel the (generally two-state supporting) anti-war movement shouts “Peace is made with enemies. Talk with Hamas” (amongst other things). Even if you identify with Israel: “No to Hamas” is a crazy, rejectionist position.

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  27. Jodley. Obviously it’s impossible to get your full programme across on a placard or in a headline, given that our comrades were acting locally to produce stuff rather than having committees of finely tuned marxist brains thrashing out the minutae then we’re never going to be able to communicate with the required level of precision and nuance. The best the most of the rest of the left can come up with is something bland like “end the onslaught” or “freedom for gaza”, they can be taken to imply all sorts of things- they’re hardly clear statements of programme.

    We don’t identify with Israel in any sense, we identify with the working class, were for independent class based politics seperate from bourgois nationalism -where that is remotely possible.

    Again I have to say there is no element of equivilence implied or otherwise in the slogan. It’s just a working class opposition to Hamas, hence the phrases “solidarity with women, workers and the left” on the same placard -carried by a young woman, trades union activist.

    Let’s repeat that for clarity, the placard that was destroyed also said “solidarity with women, workers and the left”, the awl people were the only such people who carried such placards -the PSC people cheered on by much of the rest of the left were happy to see them destroyed and called on the AWL to be chased of the demo. Shame on you all.

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  28. Martin Ohr

    Have you found the back copy of your paper from the Kosovo war proclaiming “100,000 young men slaughtered” yet? That wasn’t down to local groups of your members; though I wouldn’t place responsibility on finely tuned Marxist brains either.

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  29. Martin,

    A few points.
    1. The issue the PR people had a problem with was the equating of the IDF and Hamas. Is that something the AWL should continue, or not?
    2. The AWL is for solidarity with the people of Gaza. However, Gazans support Hamas, and increasingly. It is beyond a national liberation movement – it is an elected government. What strategy should socialists take towards non-socialist national liberation movements with mass support fighting colonial armies? Is the AWL able to draw any guidance, for example, from the socialist tradition?
    3. Do you accept that “PR, SWP and now Respect” don’t have a position of no-platform towards critics of Hamas?
    4. Isn’t what happened in Sheffield an emotional spat, and a reaction to a slogan that was intended to be disagreeable to participants?
    5. Considering what we know about ultra-leftism, Bordiga and so on, what is the likely fate of socialists agitating among the masses with demands which do not proceed from to their current consciousness?
    6. Considering the meek and milky permissiveness of the British left, what does it say about the working relationship between the AWL and the Sheffield left that its placards can be torn up without the people there at least feigning concern? It’s that rather unusual?

    Some food for thought,

    Duncan.

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  30. “There’s an argument to be had that Hamas are objectively worse than the Israeli state -even in its most zionist form.” …. “Were they equally armed then Hamas would wreak much worse damage on the world than Israel have ever tried to.”

    A chemically pure Islamophobic argument. If a similar argument were made against Israel on grounds of its being Jewish (as opposed to being brutal and racist because of its being built on stolen land) then such an argument would be pure anti-semitism. Hamas is not at war with ‘the world’ but rather with Israel – come to think of it neither is Israel, so this is a bizarre point to make.

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  31. Martin

    Your banner did say “Arm the Kossovars”, and you stood in the middle of the pro-nato demo, surrounded by a see of nato and US flags, and most of the counter demo were taunting the Serbs.

    there was a bit of a response to ths from a few young patriotic Serbs on the antiwar march, and I know that we went to extraordinary efforts to differentiate between this nationalist minority and the bulk of the march, taking socialist placcards away from them and discouraging people from joining in their argy-bargy.

    In contrast the AWL went out of their way to asscoaiate themseves with the NATO butchery.

    i don’t agree with ID, notwithstanding ethnic tensions in the former Yugoslavia, the KLA were still a fascist organisation, just as much so as the Serb fascist paramilitaries who committed atrocities in the Bosnia and Croatia wars.

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  32. Obviously it’s impossible to get your full programme across on a placard.

    ++++++++++

    Agreed. Therefore you must take into account the likely interpretation of the slogan “No to the IDF. No to Hamas” by your intended audience. If you really mean that “there is no element of equivilence implied” then you must come up with much better slogans, and can hardly complain if your honorable intentions are not perceived accurately.

    In any case political activism is about more than placards. What is the content of your “working class opposition to Hamas”? I would like to hear about the splendid solidarity work the AWL is doing with Palestinian organizations that represent a political alternative to Hamas. I would also like to hear what those organizations think of the slogan “No to the IDF. No to Hamas.”

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  33. […] Mac Uaid’s great blog has a piece on the “Alliance for Workers Liberty” of Sean Matgamna marching in a Gaza solidarity […]

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  34. The original post here is a bit crass.

    You don’t have to agree with the AWL – and I don’t – to oppose censoring them. The placard that was ripped up contained no sentiments that were outside of the broad church of anti-war opinion. Carrying both the Palestinian and Israeli flags, or using symbols containing both, is fairly common amongst anti-war Israelis and is also something that a pacifist might reasonably do.

    Yes the AWL go out of their way to make themselves obnoxious sometimes, but that doesn’t make it right to censor them. If somebody other than the AWL had been holding that placard, I doubt if people here would be quite so eager to line up in support of ripping it up.

    The issue is, is criticism of Hamas or opposition to Hamas acceptable within the anti-war movement, or are its critics to be censored in the name of anti-imperialism? Let me suggest to those who think that people who are critical of Hamas shouldn’t be allowed within the anti-war movement, that if they expand their crusade beyond the isolated and unlovely AWL they will quickly find themselves with a much smaller anti-war movement. Many of the ordinary (ie not politically affiliated) punters on marches are pretty critical of Hamas. So are supporters of other Palestinian factions. So are large parts of the Labour movement. So are groups on the far left that are considerably larger than the AWL.

    The AWL deliberately make their point in irritating and provocative ways, but there is a wider issue here. They aren’t being attacked simply because they are noisy and irritating. They are being attacked because they are critical of Hamas. Are people like Liam and others in this thread here suggesting that similar censorship should be applied to others who are critical of Hamas?

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  35. They are derided because that particular slogan seeks to make Hamas and the IDF equivalent, and can only be read otherwise with extreme effort.

    As you rightly point out, there are many critics of Hamas (from a number of different perspectives). And yet none bring placards proclaiming “No to Hamas” to a march protesting Israel’s bombing of Gaza (ostensibly to defeat Hamas). The closest to this slogan would be that of the Board of Deputies on the pro-Israel rally “End Hamas Terror.”

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  36. The AWL deliberately make their point in irritating and provocative ways, but there is a wider issue here. They aren’t being attacked simply because they are noisy and irritating. They are being attacked because they are critical of Hamas.

    No – provocation is the issue here. They’re being attacked because they set themselves up to be attacked – and they set themselves up so as to make it look as if they were being attacked because they were critical of Hamas. I’ve had some time for the AWL in the past, but right now they’re essentially the political wing of Harry’s Place – look what the Left are doing! look what the Left are doing to us, just because we refuse to support genocidal dictators!.

    Why don’t I believe they acted in good faith? Because, if they did, they’d have to be completely lacking in empathy for the people they were marching with, and rather stupid as well. There are times and places to express our comradely criticism of the political choices made by Palestinians; “while they’re being massacred” isn’t the time and “on a march to protest against their being massacred” isn’t the place.

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  37. Provocation is not the issue here, I’m afraid. It’s not about them being insensitive arseholes, it’s about the politics of what they were saying. This is clear from the tenor of most of the criticism here and the gloating that they were censored.

    Take Phil’s last paragraph in the post immediately above this one for example. There’s no way to read those words without coming to the conclusion that Phil thinks that criticising Hamas on anti-war marches is inherently provocative – ie that the problem isn’t the way in which the AWL act or present themselves, but the content of what they are saying. I’m not picking on Phil in particular here, much the same can be said about a large number of posts in this thread.

    The problem is that if you follow this line of argument to its logical conclusion, you will end up with a major split in the anti-war movement. The AWL are isolated and can be obnoxious so they are relatively easy to pick on, but ripping up placards carrying sentiments that are, like or not, well within the spectrum of the mainstream anti-war movement sends a broader message to people who are critical of Hamas. Including people who’ve never even heard of the AWL. That kind of censorship, if publicised, hands a weapon to supporters of Israeli policies and undermines the capacity of the anti-war movement to reach out to people who have no sympathy at all for Hamas. It is not a step forward for the anti-war movement to portray itself as exclusively for supporters of Hamas.

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  38. The next issue of Socalist Resistance will have a long piece on Hamas and, unless the author and the editorial board are suddenly persuaded of the virtues of Hamas’ politics, it will contain a sharp critique of much of what that organisation does and says.

    The right to criticise Hamas is not in question. What has happened is that an increasingly bizarre poltical trajectory wanted to make cheap liberal propaganda which was – in my view – correctly identified as pro-Israeli. They can’t complain when they set out to make themselves pariahs and people take them at face value.

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  39. I’m still waiting to hear about the splendid solidarity work the AWL is doing with Palestinian organizations that represent a political alternative to Hamas. I would also like to hear what those organizations think of the slogan “No to the IDF. No to Hamas.”

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  40. Irish Mark P,

    I had the misfortune of being next to the AWL stall at the start of the demo. The problem i have with them is that they always seem to be on the wrong demo. 50% of their slogans are their criticisms of those resisting imperiaslist slaughter. I’m quite happy for the anti-war movement to engage with people who are confused or who have some reactionary prejudices, but the problem with the AWL is thay they are supposed to be marxists. On nearly every international issue they make a point of distinguishing themselves from the left by supporting the backward, reactionary prejudices of ordinary people and trying to flog it as some kind of kitsch Marxism, to use the term they describe anyone who hasn’t succumbed to such gobbledegook.
    The RCP used to play this role of taking up the one issue that no-one else on the left would touch with a barge-pole (usually because their positions coincided with those of the right). When the RCP fucked off to become participants on the moral maze or whatever it is they do nowadays I was kind of hoping we wouldn’t have to endure this reacionary rubbish dressed up as marxism.
    I’m not sure why we should defend ‘their right’ to spout this crap. They have a long history of deliberately creating provocations and then complaining that their rights have been infringed when people lose their temper with them. I’m not sure we should help promote them with their self-generated ‘defend our rights’ campaigns. I’d rather just ignore them.

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  41. I am not remotely a fan of the AWL or their attention seeking, SimonD. I appreciate that part of their political method is to try and irritate larger forces on the left. However, it seems to me to be quite wrong to censor them or to support others censoring them and gloat about it.

    The small number of people who constitute the organised left may by and large be aware of the AWL’s policy of making themselves obnoxious. But to the outside world – people who by and large have never even heard of the AWL – ripping up placards which express views that are quite mainstream amongst people who are opposed to the war sends out entirely the wrong message.

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  42. Things I’d like to have seen the AWL do so that we could be rid of them:

    Carry a Confederate flag at Obama’s inauguration;

    Carry a union jack at an IRA funeral;

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  43. But the mainstream anti-war movement *does* understand that the IDF and Hamas are not equivalent. That is why they are on a demonstration that calls for ISRAEL to stop its war on Gaza (and not on a demonstration calling for “Peace for the people of Israel and Gaza”).

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  44. It’s got nothing to do with “equivalence” Jodley. The view of part of the left that opposing two things is equating two things is not a preoccupation shared by many people outside of left organisations. It’s a fact, whether you like it or not, that many of the unaffiliated punters (and quite a few of the affiliated ones) who go to anti-war marches are hostile in various degrees to Hamas.

    You can take the view that this hostility is due to the effect of mainstream media propaganda or you can take the view that this hostility results from a perfectly sensible evaluation of Hamas’ s politics (or some mix of the two), but whatever your preferred explanation that hostility does exist in some force in the mainstream anti-war movement.

    I know a significant number of people who aren’t politically active in general but who have been on anti-war marches. I can tell you from experience that many (not all) of these people are much more freaked out by Israel=Nazis placards or Hamas flags than they would be by the AWL’s placard. A lot of the people who go to anti-war marches take it for granted that you can oppose the war without supporting Hamas (or Hezbollah or the Sadrists or whoever). Ripping up placards expressing those views sends out a message to those people, most of whom will have absolutely no idea who the AWL are or how some tiny left group has systematically gone about making itself unpopular.

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  45. The view of part of the left that opposing two things is equating two things is not a preoccupation shared by many people outside of left organisations

    ++++++++++

    Opposing two things on the same placard, with identical slogans that simply replacing one term with the other is equating them, and it takes a very extreme counterintuitive reading to say otherwise.

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  46. You are missing my point entirely, Jodley.

    The stuff about “equating” two things is rather specific to the far left (and to the Trotskyist component of the far left at that). It comes out of many decades of arguments about claims and slogans like “unconditional but critical support”, “the main enemy is at home”, “military but not political support” and the like. Regardless of the importance we might place on these issues, our arguments and assumptions are outside the frame of reference of many of the people who show up on a random anti-war march.

    To quite a lot of people, a slogan like “No to the IDF, No to Hamas” isn’t a controversial revision of “the main enemy is at home” but is just a slightly bland statement of what they assume to be a common sense (or perhaps conventional wisdom) approach to the issue. Similarly, most of those people won’t have a clue about who the AWL are, what their political method is, or why they are unpopular. Ripping up placards that don’t seem obviously controversial to many potentially sympathetic people is not in my view a wise thing to do.

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  47. Irish Mark P: Confuscious say, when in hole, stop digging. You’d be surprised how intolerant the working class is when it gets going.

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  48. David:

    I’m glad to see your usual incoherent nonsense reduced to cryptic two liners. Perhaps with a bit of effort we can get you down to one line postings, then one word postings and then, if we are very lucky, nothing at all.

    The alternative would be encourage you to post something sensible, constructive and worthwhile, but that’s just utopian.

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  49. 1. The placard wasn’t ripped up for the reasons you claim. The placard was ripped up by someone to whom those arguments on the far left likely mean less than nothing.

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  50. to the outside world – people who by and large have never even heard of the AWL – ripping up placards which express views that are quite mainstream amongst people who are opposed to the war sends out entirely the wrong message

    Yes, and that’s precisely why the AWL did it.

    Phil thinks that criticising Hamas on anti-war marches is inherently provocative – ie that the problem isn’t the way in which the AWL act or present themselves, but the content of what they are saying

    How on earth do you get from the bit before the hyphen to the bit after? I don’t support Hamas and would have some fairly sharp words with anyone who asked me to. But yes, I do believe that criticising Hamas on an anti-war demo is inherently provocative. Or rather (let’s be specific) at a vigil for Gaza. As somebody else said, this wasn’t an “all hold hands for peace in the Middle East and why can’t we all just get on?” demo, it was an anti-Israel demo. Announcing that you oppose the mass-murdering war criminals of the IDF, but you also oppose the elected government of the Palestinian Authority – on that demo? Either a deliberate provocation or proof of a hideous level of stupidity – and I don’t think the AWL are stupid.

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  51. Jodley:

    My understanding is that the placard was ripped up by a Palestinian because he was upset after the deaths of family members in Israel’s bombing campaign. That’s something I can personally sympathise with, but I don’t support ripping up placards like this on political grounds. The people in PR and the SWP there who supported the ripping at the protest and the people here who support it are all, quite obviously, from the far left and don’t have the same excuse.

    Do you accept my point that this kind of thing sends out an unwelcoming message to many people who oppose Israel’s war, are hostile to Hamas and don’t have a clue who the AWL even are?

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  52. Phil:
    Yes, and that’s precisely why the AWL did it.

    Which, if true, should give other people on the march all the more reason to avoid falling into the trap.

    I don’t support Hamas and would have some fairly sharp words with anyone who asked me to. But yes, I do believe that criticising Hamas on an anti-war demo is inherently provocative.

    Well I think you are completely wrong about that, but at least you are clear about it.

    Follow through the logic of what you are saying though. I understand that both the Socialist Party and Permanent Revolution included criticism of Hamas in their leaflets on that march. According to Liam, the next copy of Socialist Resistance will include criticism of Hamas and will, presumably be sold, on Palestinian solidarity demonstrations if there are any.

    Now none of these groups are likely to raise their criticism of Hamas in the crass way that the AWL did, but you seem to be of the view that the act of criticising Hamas on such demonstrations is in and of itself “inherently provocative.” Would you support attempts to push these groups off demonstrations, or to destroy their material?

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  53. Mark: have you ever been on strike, I mean a proper strike with fighting and scabs and ting?

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  54. Do you accept my point that this kind of thing sends out an unwelcoming message to many people who oppose Israel’s war, are hostile to Hamas and don’t have a clue who the AWL even are?

    +++++++++

    I suspect they haven’t noticed, as they are not avid readers of Liam’s blog, nor of Indymedia or Workers Liberty, or any of the other venues where this trivial event has been publicized.

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  55. I suspect that quite a few of them will have seen the event on the protest itself, and quite a lot of people occasionally browse Indymedia. Then there are the people who will stumble across the event on pro-Zionist sites, not all of whom will be convinced supporters of the war but all of whom will be exposed to the argument that anti-war marches are actually pro-Hamas marches.

    Small numbers of course, because this was a relatively isolated incident. If on the other hand this kind of censorship becomes more widespread, correspondingly more people will see it. I don’t think that would be a good thing at all.

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  56. blah…

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  57. Can we come up with some other good slogans for placards? I was thinking of “No to political realities. Yes to brand differentiation.”

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  58. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    I was thinking of “We are all HAMAS!” on one side of a placard, and “We are all IDF!” on the other.

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  59. I understand that both the Socialist Party and Permanent Revolution included criticism of Hamas in their leaflets on that march.

    What march? The placard was torn up at a vigil for Gaza.

    Now none of these groups are likely to raise their criticism of Hamas in the crass way that the AWL did

    No, and that’s been my point all along – except that I think ‘crass’ gives the AWL too much of the benefit of the doubt.

    And no, when I said

    “criticising Hamas on an anti-war demo is inherently provocative”

    I didn’t mean

    “articulating any criticism of Hamas in any literature produced by one’s group which might be available on an anti-war demo is inherently provocative”

    How about “broadcasting criticisms of Hamas on an anti-war demo is inherently provocative”? Is that clearer?

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  60. Here’s the text of the open letter our sheffield comrades have written in a reponse to the (swp-member) organiser of the PSC there who has emailed to say that “no to Hamas” placards are not welcome and will not be tolerated.

    “An open letter to Sheffield’s Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Left and socialists committed to Palestinian solidarity” by Sheffield AWL Branch

    The AWL is a socialist organisation which is completely opposed to the ongoing siege on Gaza. The recent, brutal bombing campaign by Israel on Gaza represented a mini colonial war, and is part of this prolonged siege. Gaza is an “open air prison”. It forms part of long term attacks on the Occupied Territories (for example, it’s carving up into bantustans so as to deny Palestinians any kind of effective, meaningful nation-state). Kadima and Labor (in the run up to elections against their main rival Likud) were demonstrating their toughness, and sought revenge for the 2006 defeat. This was done in a grossly disproportionate, inhumane war. We are for solidarity with the Palestinian people, and for full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza. We support a viable and consistent democratic solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict which in our view means an independent Palestinian State alongside Israel (and with the same rights as Israel). This political position is highly unpopular with some on the British left. Groups such as the SWP advocate a different political perspective and are opposed to the continued existence of Israel. Within the wider Palestinian solidarity movement and within the labour movement there are many varied political perspectives on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We support the view that debate and discussion of these differences is a necessary part of our solidarity work. We also consider it important to highlight the struggles that do take place of working class organisations in both Israel and within the Occupied Territories. We support those in Israel who oppose the actions of the Israeli state, for example, the Refuseniks and the anti-war movement.

    We believe our main job at present is to make solidarity with the Palestinians against the Israeli siege. We also believe that solidarity with the Palestinians should not mean solidarity with their Hamas leaders. Hamas rejects a democratic solution on the lines set out above. Their goal, instead, is to destroy Israel and deny the Israelis national rights. Hamas is an Arab chauvinist, Islamist chauvinist, anti-Semitic movement. Hamas are part of an extreme rightwing movement that has played a highly reactionary role throughout the Muslim world, threatening the democratic rights of workers’ movements, women, gay people, secular and ex-Muslims, national and religious minorities and others. We believe that to support them, or fail to criticise them, is a betrayal of the Palestinian workers whose strikes they have suppressed; the Palestinian women they have attacked for refusing to put on the hijab, and so on. That is why we included our opposition to Hamas on the placard that was ripped up at the demonstration outside the Sheffield Town Hall on Saturday 17th January 2009. There was no intention to imply any sense of proportionality in the Israeli government’s brutal bombardment of Gaza. It was simply to make clear that we continue to criticise Hamas.

    There must be no political censorship of the Left by the Left on demonstrations.

    We realise that many people will not share our political perspective. There are also many who do have sympathy both with our ‘two states’ position and our opposition to Hamas. We brought placards and a banner which demonstrate our solidarity with the Palestinians and our opposition to Hamas. We did not in any way disrupt, or attempt to disrupt, the demonstration which we were there to participate in. We do however feel obliged as socialists to be true to our political perspective and raise criticisms even if they are unpopular. We accept that not everyone will agree with everything we say just as we do not agree with the politics of all the other placards present. We are not opportunists that simply and crudely desire to stand apart from the crowd – we are committed to our politics, and will (if necessary) bravely enter a politically hostile milieu uncompromised in our politics.

    Members of the AWL have been involved in demonstrations and actions for years and never have we experienced what took place on Saturday 17th January 2009 in Sheffield. A placard which read “No to the IDF. No to Hamas” was forcibly removed from a young woman’s hands and torn up and stamped on in front of the crowd, a majority of whom cheered and clapped (including members of the Sheffield Palestine Solidarity Campaign, the SWP and Permanent Revolution, who are all very hostile to any ‘two states’ position). This is a disturbing level of intolerance and censorship. Some argued disingenuously that we were equating the two, but it was very clear to anyone who chose to speak to us or read our literature that, we oppose the two for critically important political reasons but in no way consider the two equal. We hope that activists in Sheffield will take a serious look at this incident. This is no way to deal with political disagreements amongst us. This kind of censorship and the intolerance it breeds is unacceptable. We are not asking you to agree with our political perspective but we are asking you to support our right to raise criticism of Hamas on demonstrations. This is a basic democratic principle and we would uphold it for others. Already one anonymous posting on Indymedia has said we were “lucky not to be beaten up” and another, they would join in “chasing us off”. Someone claiming to be a member of Sheffield’s Palestine Solidarity Campaign called “Steve” has written: “maybe simply ripping down and stamping on their banner is not going far enough. Maybe they need a stronger disincentive, preferably undertaken away from the glare of those on the demo where so they can’t go bleating on about their ‘rights’. This wouldn’t have to necessarily be violent.” This needs to stop now.

    We are for solidarity with the Palestinians and will continue to participate in actions and demonstrations in Sheffield and elsewhere

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  61. Their goal, instead, is to destroy Israel and deny the Israelis national rights.

    ++++++++++++

    Why then has Hamas indicated that they are prepared to recognize the 1967 borders?

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  62. So instead of discussing how we can build solidarity fo gaza, or analysing the effect of the recent plaestine solidarity on wider politics, the AWL have managed to centre this around discussing themselves.

    brilliant. sectarian, but brilliant.

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  63. We support those in Israel who oppose the actions of the Israeli state, for example, the Refuseniks and the anti-war movement.

    +++++++++++++++

    If so, why are you taking up a rejectionist position (“No to Hamas”) rather than the position of the Israeli anti-war movement: Speak with Hamas. Israeli peace and human rights activists understand that Hamas is an integral part of the Palestinian political scene, that they have been democratically elected and that there is no peace without them.

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  64. While many of the rest of us try to get some aid through to Gaza perhaps the AWL can start organising collections for the people of Sderot.

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  65. The joke’s in the first line.
    The AWL is a socialist organisation.
    Not.

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  66. I suggest that any donations for Sderot go here

    http://www.othervoice.org/welcome-eng.htm

    (Of course, the AWL wouldn’t know what the Israeli peace movement looked like if it hit them in the face – which they wouldn’t, being peaceniks an’ all).

    Come to that, I’m still waiting to hear about the solidarity work that AWL does with those “women, workers and the left” in Palestine.

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  67. I have some sympathy with Martin Ohr’s comments. Plainly criticism of Hamas should be made. Criticism of Hamas is a standard position on the left – it is not a special insight on behalf of the AWL.

    However, showing up on demonstrations with the Israeli flag is foolish and deliberately provocative – (not sure that ‘showing the flag’ was the case in Sheffield, it was in London, however, so why not Sheffield?)

    Given the actuality of the situation in Gaza ‘No to Hamas’ as a slogan is also provocative, the AWL know this and that is why they raise it.

    ‘No to Hamas’ is provocative because it chimes in with the ‘popular’ view that the Israeli state actions were a reaction (possibly over-reaction) to Hamas. This is a lie, the attacks were well planned and justified by minor attacks and the formally reactionary positions of Hamas, not the actual actions of Hamas and negotiating positions Hamas is prepared to make.

    Meanwhile, the lost Guru of the AWL says:

    “In terms of its politics – support Hamas, support Arab and Islamic war on Israel, conquer and destroy Israel – the big demonstration on 10 January in London was an Arab or Islamic chauvinist, or even a clerical-fascist, demonstration.”

    Taking that, along with the too tedious task of citing accusations of anti-Semitism from the AWL (you know they do it, and so do they) all I can say is that periodic bouts of reasonableness from the AWL (a la Martin Ohr) are insufficient cover for the shit way the silly little sect behaves.

    (As I understand it, it was a young woman who had the placard snatched from her and destroyed. Not something to celebrate, but something that more experienced AWL members should anticipate. As it is, I think the AWL were looking for martyrdom and didn’t think about who might get hurt along the way.)

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  68. The AWL were effectively or rather ineffectively mounting a counter-demonstration. That is not acceptable. It is a bit like a spoiling or negating amendment to a resolution at a conference. They are not allowed. But we all know why they do it and why they picked the girl and why they had a photographer so well positioned to record it all. Cult building. The self-imposed siege mentality is vital to the cult and if that’s what they want then that is what they should get. I’m sure Matgamna gets something out of it.

    As for Hamas, it is hardly surprising that Palestinians should embrace a form of sectarianism given everything that has happened to them and particularly in the light of the opportunistic and `enthusiastic’ embracing of the two-state peace sham by Fatah and Western liberals which led inexorably via siege to this slaughter in Gaza. Calling down with Hamas under these circumstances was the same as cheering on the F16 pilots killing Palestinian children whatever else was said. If democrats and socialists are ever to relate to the broad Arab masses again it will have to completely reject Zionism and seek a just peace which dismantles the Zionist state allowing the Palestinian majority and jews to live in harmony in a unified secular state. The AWL are pro-zionist and for all their talk of clerical fascism in the Arab world actively support the constitution of a religion as a national formation in Israel. Self-determination for a religion is certainly a new one to Marxists and relatively new to the degenerate capitalist class.

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  69. If democrats and socialists are ever to relate to the broad Arab masses again it will have to completely reject Zionism and seek a just peace which dismantles the Zionist state allowing the Palestinian majority and jews to live in harmony in a unified secular state.

    ++++++++++++

    And again with the left-wing here telling the “broad Arab masses” what to do! (and incidentally making the *Palestinians* disappear as effectively as Golda Meir in your rhetoric). Perhaps they want a religiously-based state from the Jordon to the sea? Perhaps many living in the occupied territories feel that the “best is the enemy of the good” and that an end to occupation is the priority? Perhaps you don’t get to speak for them….

    After all, who is to decide whether the unified state meets your standards of secularity? The UN? (Obviously, only after the UN is run by revolutionary socialists, come the glorious day)

    In any case, Hamas is prepared to declare a Hudnah with Israel within its 1967 borders. Sell-outs! Sell-outs! Maybe that is why AWL had “No to Hamas” on their placard…

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  70. Jodley: I do not see a Hudnah as a sell out obviously and i doubt that’s what the AWL had in mind. They support Zionism not the Palestinian cause and believe their own propaganda that Hamas wants to `kill all the jews’. They recently pondered how anybody could condemn Israel if it launched massive pre-emptive air strikes on Iran. Needless to say then that their `opposiition’ to the attack on Gaza is not because of the damage it did to Palestinian people but because it is a PR disaster for Israel.

    But your comment is interesting and i would like to reply properly at some point if I’m able.

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  71. Of course it is not what the AWL has in mind.

    But saying that Hamas is selling-out for considering a long-term Hudnah (and plebiscite of the Palestinian people on the question) *is* the logical conclusion of your unswerving commitment to a “unified secular state” as the only variety of self-determination for Palestinians that you are prepared to accept as valid.

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  72. Jodley: Please don’t put words into my mouth. I never said that a hudnah would be selling out in fact I explicitly said it wasn’t. If Hamas and Fatah and the Palestinian people are happy with extending that into a permanent acceptance of Israel and a curtailed Palestinian existence who am I to oppose it? A unifed secular state is only a perspective not a demand. What your perspective is I don’t know. Nevertheless, the question of Zionism will not have been solved even if Hamas and Fatah accept it’s right to exist.. Though I have to say that I believe a hudnah is not an acceptance of Zionism’s right to be.

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  73. My perspective is that the revolutionary left (but not just the revolutionary left) are too quick to outline their preferred option for arranging the global map (shored up with reams of theorizing on nation, state, imperialism etc…) and not very good at seeking out or listening to the voices of people on the ground. I used to hold with the “one democratic secular state” “perspective” (indistinguishable from a demand). Now, I’m simply against zionism, for human rights and for palestinian self-determination. But I don’t think that tells me what sort of state satisfies those guiding principles, especially in the immediate sense of how the Palestinians might negotiate with Israel, given that the World Revolution TM doesn’t appear to be imminent.

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  74. Maybe I missed them but there were no Israeli flags or “No to Hamas” placards at today’s march in London.

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  75. Jodley: I don’t think the Palestinians can negotiate with Israel as Hamas have said. The Palestinians need to seek out anti-Zionist progressive forces in Israel to negotiate with for the establishment of a secular unified state which addresses all the injustices done to the Palestinians. In the meantime a hudnah is the correct response as opposed to entering into another sham peace process and we must hope that pariah status and a boycott of the Zionist regime will help those forces to emerge. Also the US working class should be demanding these things in return for the huge subsidy Israel gets from America or demand the subsidy stops.

    I understand that you don’t want to put conditions on Palestinian self-determination i.e. why should the state be secular, and I understand that nations often adopt religious leaderships (which incidentally is the opposite of a religion seeking national identity or expression) but I think there is no reason why a religioius leadership should not accept the principle of secular governance and I don’t think Hamas have ruled this out. It would certainly help in seeking out progressive forces in the jewish population with which to transform the situation.

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  76. Martin, I’m still interested to read replies to the questions I posted on the 21st. My feeling is that there is contradiction between the AWL stated goal: to prioritise solidarity with the Palestinian people, and the reality of prioritising criticism of its elected government and the rest of the left.

    I don’t know the situation on the vigil in question. Socialists at that event did not tear up the AWL placard. It sounds like a spat between two people; I am not sure that there’s anything the other socialists there could have done to prevent one placard getting torn up. But I get the impressions that what we did not see in Sheffield was an organised attempt to censor the AWL; instead it was a confrontation between individuals.

    Generally, the *organisers* of events do have the right to have a policy about placards since they can be held liable for them. But I am not sure that this is what happened here.

    That said, there’s a difference between agitation and propaganda. It was a sectarian error to agitate at the vigil with a banner that equated Hamas and the IDF. It was intended to provoke, and the reaction could have been much worse. That equation was deliberate, and is reflected also in the editorial in the current issue of the AWL’s paper, which criticises Hamas’s military struggle and concludes: “It is not surprising that most Israelis, and not only the Israeli right, think the offensive against Hamas is a just and necessary act of self-defence.” [http://www.workersliberty.org/system/files/144.pdf]

    The point is, of course, that for the AWL that criticism of Hamas and the far left is its core task. Comrades in Respect, as folk will know, are working with other socialists to mobilise an aid convoy to Gaza. Many of us did similar work with Workers’ Aid to Bosnia. That’s our priority.

    SimonD makes an interesting point about the RCP. Consciously, regularly, the RCP’s internal discussion on the Middle East started with the question: “what is the rest of the left not saying”. http://bit.ly/RCP The AWL, of course, shares its contrariness, libertarianism and openness to dominant ideas (see, for example, its astonishing turn on abortion rights).

    I think Jodley’s helpful in pointing out that the demand for a democratic secular state can be used in the wrong way. It’s only one possible outcome and, for many on the left, one we would support. However, it would be wrong to pose that as the key or only goal. More precisely, it would be a retreat to minimum-maximum propagandism. Our agitation has to focus on building solidarity and going through experiences with Palestinians and those who support them. That same point should also be said about those who gear their work around the demand for two states.

    The AWL’s latest poster [http://www.workersliberty.org/system/files/gazaposter.pdf] raises no suggestions that relate to solidarity work in Britain. In contrast, for example, the Socialist Resistance statement [http://bit.ly/4EG5d5] ends with demands that are levelled at the British government and the trade unions.

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  77. The reason why Hamas propose a Hudnah is not for the reasons you suggest (i.e. that the alternative is a “sham peace”). Hamas’s interpretation of Islam dictates that Palestine is a Waqf (belongs to Allah) and cannot be ruled by a non-Muslim state. i.e. they do not have the right to “sign away” something that belongs to God. A Hudnah is a way to get around a Waqf, in the same way that an Eruv helps orthodox Jews carry stuff on Shabbat by turning a public space into a private one for the purpose of Shabbat ritual. For religious people, these ‘legalities’ matter very much, even though they are hard for the non-religious to understand and easily ridiculed. You should not assume that the attitude of Hamas to a Hudnah is the same as your own.

    Incidentally, Mecca is also a Waqf, and when it was ruled by non-muslims, Muhammed declared a Hudnah. It has theological-legal status, and is not merely a ‘tactic’ to avoid a sham peace. The violation of a Hudnah would also have religious implications.

    Again, you are telling us what the “Palestinians need” to do. It’s all very well saying that Palestinians need to “seek out anti-zionist progressive forces in Israel to negotiate with for the establishment of a secular unified state which addresses all the injustices done to the Palestinians.” But why should they? a) such people are a tiny minority of a tiny minority in Israel – Ilan Pappe, the leading intellectual representative of this position, has left the country.
    b) what’s the point of negotiating with people who have no power? Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territory. When they speak with someone about the future of Palestinians, they will obviously sully themselves by speaking with governments (albeit possibly through intermediaries).

    This is not to say that Palestinians (with a variety of aspirations for the future) shouldn’t work with Israelis (with a variety of aspirations for the future) on immediate questions (settlements, house demolitions, civil and human rights, etc…) wherever they find it helpful to do so.

    You might be interested in a forthcoming debate l”One-State Solution vs. Two-State Solution” hosted by the Cambridge University Palestine Society [CUPal] between Ilan Pappe (anti-zionist Israeli) and Yezid Sayigh (former negotiator for the PLO), details here

    http://www.cusu.cam.ac.uk/events/946/one-state-solution-vs-two-state-solution/

    I suspect that the arguments on both sides will be persuasive, and that the areas of agreement will be larger than the areas of difference.

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  78. Jodley: Well if a hudnah is a way of getting round a waqf that would seem to indicate the possibility of partiicipating in secular governance. But, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think anybody would blame the people of Gaza for a certain growth in sectarian moods given the years of abuse and the recent opportunism of Fatah.

    True, anti-zionist progressive forces in Israel are small at the moment but that can change given the international outrage and the wrecklessnness of Zionism (a wrecklessnes that earns it its subsidies) and they need not be powerless. If it arose amongst workers for instance they potentially control the means of production and the entire economy. Early days I know but with international pressure I think its more realistic than two-states or three states (zionism won’t allow it) or waiting for a mass progressive arab army to assemble on Israel’s borders.

    The Cambridge debate certainly looks interesting and of course the priorities at the moment are aid and boycott.

    Just to make clear what i think contsitutes justice for the Palestinians and this is just me and belive me Jodley I’m not in a position to impose it on anybody:

    End the siege of Gaza;

    Reparations for the damage;

    Illegal settlers out of the West Bank;

    Return of refugees to homes and jobs and compensation for those who do not want to return;

    Full citizenship for all;

    A constituent assembly covering the whole of Israel and the occupied territories with Jerusalem as the administrative capital and called Palestine.

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  79. If it arose amongst workers for instance they potentially control the means of production and the entire economy.

    +++++++++++++

    Look, I never thought I would live to see the day when the British government “nationalize the commanding heights of the economy” – and yet it has happened in the past few months with the banking crisis (and in a way that none of us would have expected). So, I agree that anything is possible.

    But ultimately your position is that the future for Palestinians is hopeless without the rise (and triumph) of revolutionary consciousness in the Israeli working-class, yada, yada… I think the situation is much more urgent than that.

    The fact that Palestinians have survived for over 60 years at Israel’s margins should not make us complacent about how much longer this can go on, from a human and a political point of view. That is what I’m concerned about. The world has just sat by while Israel killed more than 1300 people in three weeks! These killing sprees are a regular part of a completely unequal cycle of violence, and on top of the daily grinding down of Palestinians ability to survive by 100 different means. Yes, there is much to be admired in tenacity, but we need to understand that sometimes whole peoples do suffer a totally irreversible and devastating historical defeat. That is what must be avoided. Maybe my assessment of the situation of Palestinians is simply very much more pessimistic than yours.

    I do think that Palestinians in the occupied territories could take a radically different path, and demand full-citizenship of Israel (since they are de facto ruled over by Israel) and continue the fight for civil rights within Israel, including the revocation of the Law of Return and the Right to Return of refugees honoured. With the notable exception of Azmi Bishara, there is almost no appetite for articulating that alternative amongst Palestinians and I think you have to ask yourself why that is.

    It is not the case that world disapproval and isolation makes people move to the left (that certainly isn’t the experience in South Africa). It may make them take different decisions based on their (current, perhaps falsely-conscious) perception of their interests. This is the objective of the BDS campaign, not to ferment socialist revolution within Israel.

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  80. `This is the objective of the BDS campaign, not to ferment socialist revolution within Israel.’

    I’d settle for the emergence of a large and powerful anti-zionist movement in Israel as a result of the campaign.

    But you are right to fear for the future of the Palestinians, the zionist impulse is a genocidal one. Unlike apartheid where a tiny minority was intent on exploiting a vast majority, Zionism needs to manufacture a substantial majority to maintain its rule and it cannot abide even the prospect of a non-jewish majority ariisiing even decades hence. It has already indicated that the `Israeli’ Palestinians will be ethnically cleansed into the West Bank in the event of `two-states’. This is both a threat to the international community and also a real possibility. Its other options are to import more Russians to steal more land and drive the Gazans into Egypt and the West Bank Palestinians into Jordan.

    But it is because of this logic which is so extreme that I am hopeful that the BDS campaign will forment an anti-zionist movement in Israel intent on a just peace with the Paletiniians rather than simply drive all jews into a closer bond with the zionists and a state of permanent war and isolation.

    Of course, what the Palestinians do should not be dependent on whether the Israeli’s are ready to come to their senses but tactically I think it is important to engage with potential anti-zionist forces amongst Israelis rather than hope that Zionism will simply leave the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank alone. It won’t. Of course, whilst not participatiing in a sham peace process I expect the Palestinians will rightly continue to demand the removal of illegal settlers from the West Bank and the lifting of the siege on Gaza and to seek international support for that. Additionally, as you say, it might be tactically an idea to demand full citizenship of Israel with full civil rights.

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  81. Additionally, as you say, it might be tactically an idea to demand full citizenship of Israel with full civil rights.

    ++++++++

    This was not me saying this, I was simply saying that Palestinians *could* take a different path, as articulated by Azmi Bishara, and have in their great majority not done so. I simply ask you to consider the reasons for this.

    Again, BDS is not intended to create a large and powerful anti-zionist movement in Israel. It is intended to make Israel’s leaders (and population) look to their own self-interest. That is quite different from fermenting anti-zionism. Sanctions did not bring whites into the South African anti-apartheid movement, that was not their purpose. They did have a role in making ordinarily racist whites in SA put pragmatism above ideology. The loss of SAs strategic utility to the US post cold war may have been equally or more important in ending apartheid, together with the consistent anti-apartheid struggle within the country.

    You talk about removing settlers from the West Bank and also about a one-state solution in which everyone is presumably free to live wherever they like according to their means (assuming that the one-state is merely democratic secular, and not a socialist regime with strict rules to prevent segregation). Do you think these two propositions are at all contradicatory?

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  82. Jodley: I talked about removiing illegal settlers from the West Bank which is what they are. I don’t think the future precludes jewish people buyiing property in these places in the normal, civilised way from Palestinians who are willing to sell or seeking legitimate employment.

    `This was not me saying this, I was simply saying that Palestinians *could* take a different path, as articulated by Azmi Bishara, and have in their great majority not done so. I simply ask you to consider the reasons for this.’

    I suspect my explanation may differ somewhat from yours an I would be more than willing to take on board any particular insight you have on the subject but I would say Bishara was marginalised by the deal cooked up between Abbas and the Zionists and of course in the light of that opportunism and subsequent events certain understandable sectarian moods have led Bishara’s position to look temporarily less likely but I think it may have been right then and may well be right again and apologies for doing to you what I accused you of doing to me earlier.

    By the way will that Cambridge meeting be You Tubed do you know?

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  83. If you think that the opportunism etc…began with the deal between Abbas and the Zionists, then you are much much mistaken.

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  84. I talked about removiing illegal settlers from the West Bank which is what they are.

    ++++++++++++

    But why do you think the West Bank is any more illegally occupied than Tel Aviv? That is a classic two-state line, that occupation begins in 1967. Be consistent at least.

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  85. Jodley: I don’t think opportunism began with the deal between Abbas and the Zionists but it was a qualitatively new order of opportunism even taking into account all the previous betrayals of Stalinism. So much so, in fact, that opportunism, perhaps for the first time, has lost its grip on the situation.

    Yes, you are correct that I am being slightly pragmatic viz the occupied territories versus Tel Aviv etc. but there are some achievements that the Palestinians have which need to be emphasised and one is to have gotten the illegality of the settlers in the `occupied territories’ confirmed. Personally I’d like to see the whole state of Israel declared illegal by the international community and all the jews of European descent return to Europe or go to America and I’ll bet most of them would willingly if the conditions were right and the truth be told. They are after all just pawns in the great US imperialist game of divide and rule where they are now in the way they are now. Perhaps a campaign to get Israel recognised as altogether illegal by the international community and for the establishment of an international fund to pay Israelis of European descent to return to Europe or go to America is a possible way forward. Perhaps pragmatically combine that demand with a campaign for full citizenship and civil rights within Israel for the people of Gaza and the West Bank. After all, opening the borders and lifting the siege would be half-way towards that demand. I do think that more and more `Israelis’ are going to come over to that perspective or be faced with the true logic of Zionism.

    Jodley, I’ve been trying to find a realistic way forward for the Palestinian struggle without being either sectarian or opportunist. I may have failed. I’m sure, and I hope, you’ll let me know.

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  86. previous betrayals of Stalinism.

    ++++++++++++

    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? This is why it is impossible to talk to revolutionary socialists beyond a certain point. They cannot see or understand the situation except through a very limited set of predetermined concepts. Explain to me how Arafat/Fatah/PLO was “Stalinist” in any meaningful sense of that word, please.

    Interesting view on the Jews of European descent being giving financial incentive to leave. Why only them? The Jews who came from Morocco are no more indigenous to Palestine than those from Poland. Nor are those from Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia or Yemen.

    I have no problem with recent West Bank settlers being bribed back to Brooklyn if that helps the situation. But I can see quite a few problems with a more radical plan that that. Not least, I think your assessment that most would go willingly is entirely incorrect.

    Did you support the expulsion of Uganda’s Asian community? (Similarly, “pawns of imperialism”).

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  87. Jodley – I would be grateful if you didn’t lump all those claiming to be revolutionary socialists together. I often find David Ellis a bit incomprehensible. He may be saying that the opportunism of Abbas is greater than that of Stalinists, not neccesarily that he is one (the tendency to operate a one-party state might be one similarity).

    It’s probably easier to repatriate European Jews than those from predominantly Arab/Muslim countries. I’m not commenting on whether it’s a good idea, I’d never really thought about it. I don’t think the expulsion of the Ugandan Asians was a good thing, or that it is at all comparable.

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  88. I don’t think opportunism began with the deal between Abbas and the Zionists but it was a qualitatively new order of opportunism even taking into account all the previous betrayals of Stalinism.

    +++++++++++++++

    How else are we to interpret this? Surely he is saying that previous “betrayers of the Palestinians” prior to Abbas were Stalinists? What else can he mean?

    On what basis do you assume that it is easier to “repatriate European Jews” than those from predominantly Arab/Muslim countries? I’m just interested in your reasoning here.

    I don’t think it’s comparable either. On the one hand, Ellis is wrong to think of the Jewish Israelis as pawns of US imperialism. Zionism is its own independent thing, which has made a series of strategic alliances with imperial powers. Uganda’s Asian population (strictly speaking, Indian population) were directly pawns of British empire (a part of the workforce in the British colonial administration). On the other hand, they constituted a mere 70,000 souls, whereas the Israeli population of European descent constitute about 3 million or thereabouts.

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  89. ` I would be grateful if you didn’t lump all those claiming to be revolutionary socialists together.’

    If you are a revolutionary socialist then I would be more than happy not to call myself one. As Marx said of the anarchist sectarian cult builders that infested the `socialist’ movement of his time, if they are Marxists then I am not. You disgust me to be honest. Your version of sectarian petty bourgeois socialism we can all do without but I suppose you represent a certain hostile class force that will have to be tackled.

    Jodley: I’ll get back to you on your last comments as soon as I can but I must say you do seem to pick and choose and shift around the arguement quite a lot to suit.

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  90. My only argument is that the situation is much more complex than your slogans allow. By this I don’t mean the morality of Israel’s actions. No complexity there. Nor the justice of the Palestinians cause. No complexity there either. But notions like:

    Israel/Zionists = pawn of US imperialsm

    Palestinine’s betrayers = Stalinists

    Are simply unhelpful.

    And I see a few major problems with your plan for the mass (voluntary?) population transfer of Israeli Jews of European descent.

    Back in the day, supporters of “one democratic secular state” (including myself) would patiently explain that this did not mean the absence of Jews from Israel, simply the end of Jewish privilege, the end of the exclusive Jewish character of the state. But apparently this is not your vision of a the “unified secular state”? Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

    Will you say why you want the Jews of European descent to leave, but not the Jews from Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia, Yemen, etc…

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  91. Jodley: No need to impute motive really we are talking here, discussing but you seem more interested in trashing my reputation. I said those of European origin because they are more culturally in tune with America and Europe and Europe is their historic home and because among them are the more `ideological’ Zionists and therefore most likely to refuse a Palestinian majority state and therefore to make trouble for it. Best to pay them to leave or at least offer them passports for EU countries and America in exchange for their Israeli ones. As for the Moroccan etc jews I doubt that they are as ideologically driven and could happily exist in a majority Palestinian state provided it was a democracy but let me know if that it not the case.

    Interesting you mentioned Uganda. That was where the British wanted the Zionist state to be established but were over-ruled by the US who were busy dismantling the remnants of the British empire at the time. As for Idi Amin, I don’t think he expelled the Asians as such more than ask them to pledge loyalty to the new independent Ugandan state by repudiating their British passports. If they didn’t they were free to use them. They chose to use them rather than lose them but of course the British propaganda machine called it an `expulsion’ to make their arrival more acceptable to British public opinion and to demonise Uganda.

    On Stalinism. It was Stalinism in the interests of its policy of `peaceful co-existence’ with imperialism that subordinated the Palestinian masses to an acceptance of the legitimacy of Zionism through a sham peace process which tied them politically through their revisionist two-stage theory of revolution to the small but rather wealthy Palestinian bourgeois and feudal classes’ political representatives found I think mainly in Fatah who preferred to cut deals with imperialism and Zionism than struggle for the completion of the Palestinian national revolution.

    With the end of the Soviet Union there was nothing powerful that imperialism felt it had to peacefully co-exist with even if what there was wanted to peacefully co-exist with it and so the deal between Abbass and the Zionists was quickly exposed as a hollow capitulation which had completely played into the hands of the Zionists who used it as a front to continue their efforts to eradicate Palestine and Palestinians one way or another. That they have overplayed that hand is what we need to take advantage of. The Palestinian national democratic revolution must be completed but in response to Fatah’s opportunism the Palestinian masses have turned to petty bourgeois sectarianism in the form of Hamas. Unfortunately, their policy seems to be just another version of peaceful co-existence renamed `permanent hostile co-existence’ which doesn’t really challenge Zionism’s right to exist or portend the completion of the Palestinian national democratic revolution. It just seems to want to ignore the fact of Zionism’s existence. Remember, this is a blog and that’s all very short hand. Documents should be exchanged really. Anywho …

    Let’s hope that the BDS campaign de-legitimises Israel in the eyes of the world. Let’s hope that it, along with the resistance of the Palestinians and the increasingly criminal and desperate actions of the Zionist regime, will foster an anti-Zionist mood amongst Israelis. Let’s hope that this anti-Zionist mood will form into a movement that will reach out to and link up with the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza who are struggling for open borders, full civil rights and a constituent assembly representing all the Palestinian territories (West Bank, Gaza, Israel). Let’s hope that this movement will go on to complete the Palestinian national revolution, kick out Zionism and instigate an epoch of just peace between Muslims, Jews and Christians in a new democratic state with its capital in Jerusalem and that its name will be Palestine. But let us not just hope; let us do what we can to make it happen. Yes we can.

    But the most important things are the struggle for civil rights and the BDS campaign.

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  92. David, it does not look to me as if Jodley is trashing your reputation. I don’t know if you know each other from outside this blog, but it may be more effective for you to assume that Jodley’s straightforwardly trying to test the weaker links in the way you connect up your argument. You come to the discussion from different places, so you have different viewpoints on the same issues.

    I’m also deeply uncomfortable with the suggestion of paying Jews to leave Israel, on a whole series of levels. I don’t see why it’s easier for a European Jew to return to Europe than for a Moroccan Jew to return to Morocco. There’s also the reality of the diaspora: the British Jew from Belgian roots; the South African from Latvian; the Moroccan with Spanish roots. For example, the overwhelming majority of Polish Jews emigrated in the post-war years. The Jewish community there is now around 20,000. There’s not that much to go back to.

    On the Indians in Uganda, David, you are quite dreadfully mistaken. Amin’s policy was a racist policy which we would now call ethnic cleansing.

    I do also share the concern about equating Fatah with Stalinism. The USSR supported Fatah at times, but Fatah was not a creation or tool of the USSR. The same, of course, can be said about the US and Zionism.

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  93. ” You disgust me to be honest.”

    The only thing you seem to be honest about is that you don’t like my politics. You and those like you use words like disgust so often, and for such petty purposes that it loses all meaning. When you said “The SWP is now indistinguishable from the Khmer Rouge” – that is genuinely disgusting in the way it devalues the Cambodian genocide. And your insults “sectarian”, “petty bourgeois”, etc. just seem to be projecting your own faults on to others. I could say either grow up or yah boo sucks. Whatever.

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  94. David, I’m not trying to trash your reputation. I’m simply have a discussion. If you make points which are based on ignorance or what I perceive to be misunderstandings, I will say so.

    I’m very surprised to see Fatah referred to as “Stalinist”, that’s all. To me, it just seems to be reaching for an easy swear word, rather than trying to understand the nature of that organization. Now that you’ve explained what you meant, I’m not sure I’m any the wiser and think you would need to break it down for me some more for me to understand why it was Stalinist.

    On the rest.

    I don’t really believe in “historic homes” (hence, not a zionist!). I don’t really believe in “culturally more in tune” – cultures are what people make them.

    I don’t know how many actual real life “Israelis of European descent” you know in real life (ex-Israelis, or Israelis who have left Israel by choice). It seems to me, impressionistically, that they are no more or less “in tune” with “British culture” than any other immigrants here. (In fact, I’m not quite sure what being “in tune” means or where that thinking leads….probably to all sorts of racist rot quite quickly, Aliens Acts and panic about integration and assimilation).

    It is simply not true that “among them are the more `ideological’ Zionists and therefore most likely to refuse a Palestinian majority state” and if you knew anything at all about Israeli politics you would not say so.

    To simplify, that non-European (Mizrahi) Jews have been excluded from the political elite in many ways, their culture derided and they have tended to be poorer in relation to Jews of European descent. Edward Said’s Orientalism made a big splash in Israel partly in relation to this question of the status of Mizrahi Jews. But this does not lead to unity with other “non-Europeans” (Christian and Muslim Palestinians). The Mizrahi population is much more solidly behind the most right-wing, hawkish zionist parties and much less likely to be involved in any anti-war/peace/anti-zionist/post-zionist activities (of the sort that you say you would like to encourage). The Jews who came to Israel from the Islamic world post-48 have a narrative that involves being “driven out” and made refugees by Arab/Muslim states. I don’t know why you consider these people not “ideologically driven”?

    There is no reason why they could not “go home” to majority Muslim countries in a post-zionist world, since the antagonism towards Jewish populations where it existed was largely a consequence of conflicts with Israel. Even in Iran today, there are 25,000 Jews who have complete freedom of worship, simply subject to the same restrictions on political freedom as anyone else (i.e. a Muslim Iranian couldn’t publicly support Israel and neither can a Jewish Iranian). In the absence of Zionism, a lot of the problems go away.

    Also, consider that the Jewish immigration to Palestine pre-dates the creation of Israel by more than fifty years, and almost all of it prior to 1948 was European (with the significant exception of Yemeni immigrants). Of the 3rd generation+ Jewish Israelis – far more are of European descent than not.

    But there are more important reasons than these not to support national solutions which involve mass population transfers, which should be obvious.

    The “British Uganda Programme” was actually intending to give away a bit of what is now Kenya, not what became modern Uganda.

    I’m interested that you don’t specify “non-European” in your conception of a “just peace between Muslims, Jews and Christians in a new democratic state.”

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  95. It seems to me that neither of these incidents were ‘official’ AWL actions, so to speak: a homemade placard and a maybe a naive attempt to demonstrate support for Israeli and Palestinian workers. However that the two young socialists were effectively thrown off these demonstrations tells you a lot about the state of the British left.

    I’m taken by the ex-SWPers attacking the AWL about Kosovo. I can plainly remember the SWP and the Morning Star blocking motions to support self-determination for Kosovo in my union branch, without even an attempt to argue through the issues. It was at that point that I realised the SWP was dead to third camp politics and events have proved me right.

    I can’t speak for the AWL, but regarding Duncan’s points regarding “anti-imperialist” movements. it seems to me that one can support the right of a people to defend itself from attack and to fight for democratic rights, but that doesn’t equate to supporting Hamas, the IRA, Castro, or the Chinese Communists.

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  96. So, that appropriate slogan for a march calling for a lifting of the US blockade on Cuba would be, e.g. “Get rid of the blockade. Get rid of Fidel Castro”?

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  97. Jodley: “So, that appropriate slogan for a march calling for a lifting of the US blockade on Cuba would be, e.g. “Get rid of the blockade. Get rid of Fidel Castro”?”

    Yes.

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  98. “Get rid of the blockade. Get rid of Fidel Castro”

    You might run into copyright issues with that slogan since it has been the property of US imperialism and Cuban counter-revolutionaries since the blockade was begun. I could see it working well in Miami though.

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  99. Martin, I think you’re running into the whole “difficult to outline the programme on a placard” issue which we’ve talked about before.

    Remind me again….about the splendid solidarity work the AWL is doing with Palestinian organizations that represent a political alternative to Hamas. I would also like to hear what those organizations think of the slogan “No to the IDF. No to Hamas.”

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  100. Liam, It’s very difficult to engage with someone who doesn’t hold to basic democratic rights: in the Cuban context this must mean supporting the right of independent political parties and trades unions, civic groups and so on to organise. It is this basic flaw that lead, for example, Mandel to declare China a workers’ state, or for the left to ban voices – calling them scabs on so on – on these recent demonstrations. Or indeed for the Militant and SWP to use physical force routinely against other left groups.

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  101. Paul – we brought Celia Hart to London after she’d been expelled from the Cuban CP, published her book and have consistently maintained that there the absence of a pluralist revolutionary democracy is a fundamental weakness of Cuban society.

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  102. So what’s wrong with “Get rid of Castro” then?

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  103. Jodley: “So, that appropriate slogan for a march calling for a lifting of the US blockade on Cuba would be, e.g. “Get rid of the blockade. Get rid of Fidel Castro”?”

    Martin Ohr: `Yes.’

    If this doesn’t confirm the AWL as pro-imperialist scum not of our movement then what does? For some, I suspect nothing. In other words if the Cubans get rid of Fidel Castro, the Americans will get rid of the blockade.

    Jodley: don’t worry about my reputation I was only joking about that.

    Fatah as stalinsits: I think I said Fatah was the political representatives of the tiny but wealthy Palestinian bourgeoisie and remnants of the feudal aristocracy. Their importance has been hugely inflated by Stalinism’s determination to subordinate the struggle of the Palestinian masses to these elements for the sake of peaceful co-existence with imperialism.

    Since the advent of imperialism, the national bourgeoisie in colonial and semi-colonial nations have proved incapable of carrying through the the task of the national democratic revolution for two reasons. They are scared to death of the working class that has grown up around them and of mobilising it and because they are far more interested in wheeler dealing and coming to an accommodation with imperialism. The task of completing the national democratic revolution therefore falls to the masses led by the workers and will therefore tend towards socialism.

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  104. Hasta siempre comandante Avatar
    Hasta siempre comandante

    The AWL remind me of the Sparts, turning up at others’ meetings, spewing abuse and trying to disrupt them to get a reaction, and then screaming about “violence in the workers’ movement” when someone obliges the provocateurs with a reaction.

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  105. “Or indeed for the Militant and SWP to use physical force routinely against other left groups.”

    The fact that you’re referring to an organisation that hasn’t existed for a number of years (Militant not the SWP -some of you wish!), makes me think that this is an accusation entirely unfounded in fact.

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  106. Their importance has been hugely inflated by Stalinism’s determination to subordinate the struggle of the Palestinian masses to these elements for the sake of peaceful co-existence with imperialism.

    +++++++++++++

    I guess I’m still unclear why you are attributing the position of Fatah to “Stalinism’s determination….” as opposed to certain mutual interests of Israel and Fatah?

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  107. David: You need to calm down a bit. Not supporting the Stalinist Cuban regime does not make you “scum”.

    Hasta: As far as I can tell the AWL is being witch-hunted by small groups of ultra-left poseurs because it doesn’t support mainstream far left “commonsense” on the national question in the middle east.

    Skidmarx: The use of wound-up youth by Militant against its opponents was a fact of life in the LPYS and elsewhere. The SWP’s tactic of routinely pushing around political opponents is also on the record. And something I had to put up with for many years.

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  108. Hasta siempre comandante Avatar
    Hasta siempre comandante

    As long as I remember, the AWL has accused everyone else on the left of being anti-Semitic, not a position that will make it welcome, although it does strangely resemble the defensive reflexes of the Israeli propaganda machine. The AWL has long associated itself with Zionist positions, I think a leading member (Matgamna?) even went so far as to call himself a “Zionist”. And since only a tosser would go to a Gaza protest with an Israeli flag, I voted accordingly.

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  109. Martin,

    Coming back to my questions to you on the 21st, I do invite you to consider how you might answer them. Also the no to Hamas slogan isn’t especially leftist, agitating with it puts the AWL in a sectarian position similar to ultralefts. In both cases, the use of these demands aims to insulate the organisation from the broad vanguard by posting demands which do not move from the current sentiment of the vanguard.

    Of course demands like no to Castro and no to Hamas are especially difficult because, of course, the correspond to the demands of imperialism and do not articulate an independent class like. No war; no Hamas; Two states – this utopian formula is the leading edge of the AWL’s agitation and corresponds with the current sentiment of the ruling class. It’s really most unfortunate.

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  110. `No to the IDF; No to Hamas’ simply means reject Hamas and we will stop splitting your children in half with tank shells just as `No to the blockade; No to Fidel Castro’ means reject Fidel Castro and we will lift our blockade.

    I don’t need to calm down Paul M you need to stop relating to the poet/soldier/revolutionary/pseud S Matgamna in the way that the Dennis Hopper character in `Apocalypse Now’ related to the Marlon Brando character, like an infatuated swievel-eyed teenager. Matgamna was a Loyalist in the 90s and now he’s a Zionist. If the apartheid issues hadn’t been so black and white he’d have championed the Afrikaaners. He is a sophist and … DELETED – LIAM.

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  111. Were there some choice words after “sophist”?

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  112. Paul M – if these allegations are on the record, then you should be able to name specific incidents. I don’t wish to drag everything back to the Respect split, but when I asked Galloway’s supporters to back up their allegations against the SWP with specific instances, I would get bland responses like this:http://socialistunity.com/?p=2569#comment-79617

    During the time I was in the SWP the only violence I can remember seeing was between demonstrators and police (Wapping, Trafalgar Square), and although members of the Militant could be personally unpleasant (at one of their summer camps an SWP tent was urinated on, the following year one was chundered on, no proof that it was a deliberate act or who by) I never saw any of them physically assault other leftists. I think the burden of proof is with you.

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  113. I don’t wish to drag everything back to the Respect split

    You know, it would be quite easy to act on this non-desire.

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  114. You need to remember that Paul M is a Chorlton Zionist and AWL supporter who does nothing. But says far too much.

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  115. Hasta siempre comandante Avatar
    Hasta siempre comandante

    I think Sparts have claimed to have been mishandled on one or two occasions outside Marxism, and the Weekly Worker crowd have complained at least once, but since both organisations have a yen for provocation, it is difficult to feel sympathetic (certainly I do not).

    The “deleted” bit also interests me. It’s like trying to complete the blank in an ancient manuscript. Or listening to a Nixon tape… 🙂

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  116. The idea that the SWP and Militant routinely use violence is a slander. Paul, as you yourself would say, put up or shut up.

    In terms of the use of wound up youth well… let’s just close our eyes and imagine Mark S, Dave H and a tonne of other AWL folk shouting people down in a way that, if you did it in a supermarket, would certainly get you hit.

    Generally, you can say that individuals on the edges of any organisation might sometime end up pushing and shoving. But that’s not the same as an action by that organisation, let along a repeated pattern of policy. We did see, at Marxism for example, a pretty disgraceful attack by SWP staff against a WW guy who had appropriated a ticket. However, that’s not routine.

    As for Militant, I’ve always found their cadres to be quite careful and to have a much better understanding of the importance of these issues.

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  117. Phil – that’s easy for you to say (thirty seconds at a computer keyboard probably sufficed).

    billj – thanks for the heads-up. I try to respond reasonably to anyone who keeps their debating style reasonable, if they have some sort of logic or evidence all the better.

    hsc – I remember someone in the SWP some years ago, it might have been Rob Hoveman, telling me that where the Sparts had numbers (in the States) they would physically break up others’ meetings, so I’m disinclined to sympathy too.[I used to find theie slogans like “All Hail Cuban Troops In Angola” unbelievably off the wall until I met a South African who had fought alongside Cuban troops in Angola].
    At Marxism 2004, some members of the RCG/Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! disrupted a Mike Gonzales meeting by dragging their banner in front of the stage despite having been allowed to make contributions, and they still weren’t ejected.

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  118. […] Over at Liam’s place there’s been a bit of a barney going on about the Alliance for Zionist Liberty and their interventions in the big demos against the slaughter in Gaza. What I’m not going to do is to deal specifically with the AWL’s behaviour, except to not that they do what they do specifically to get a hostile reaction. It’s the same imperative that has them going to left meetings and shouting that everybody else there is an anti-Semite. Basically, it’s a modus operandi that will be familiar from the RCP of blessed memory and the Spartacist League. (Although the Sparts are more literate Marxists, and Uncle Frank was always more interesting.) To be brutally honest, they’re lucky they don’t get beaten up on a regular basis. […]

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  119. Hasta siempre comandante Avatar
    Hasta siempre comandante

    Actually, the left in Britain is remarkably tolerant of people coming along with the express intention of stirring up trouble. Far too tolerant, in my view.

    Splintered Sunrise seems to dismiss the idea that Alliance With Livni is performing a paid service. Impossible to prove, but I wouldn’t be too sure, the labourer being worthy of his/her hire etc.

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  120. Hasta: pro-(clerica)l fascism, in the true Stalinist tradition.

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  121. BOY, DO THEY HAVE A LOT OF TIME IN ENGLAND ! JUST TO THROW A PENNY INTO THE POT, V BELATEDLY: RITA ACT, THE RESISTANCE INSIDE THE ARMIES (THEN ONLY US) HAD A LOVELY US FLAG: A CIRCLE OF 13 STARS, AND STRIPES: IT WAS THE FLAG OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, AND IT WAS CARRIED IN VIETNAM WAR DEMOS.
    UNTIL IT WAS LOST ON SALZBURG, AUSTRIA, AIRFIELD WHILE WE WERE PREVENTING ONE MULHOUSE NIXON (TEMPORARILY PRESIDENT) FROM LANDING.
    MOX NIX.. MAX

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