This is from the Socialist Party. The artwork is the cover of the new issue of Socialist Resistance.picture-7
Workers’ party must be built
Dear comrades,

Your open letter, entitled ‘It’s time to create a socialist alternative’, poses the important question of how a left alternative can be created to contest the general election. The Socialist Party has always been prepared to support genuine left unity, provided it is on open, pluralistic terms.

Unfortunately, in the past your organisation has not done so. You have taken a sectarian ‘rule or ruin’ approach – your own party’s narrow organisational dominance has been put before the interests of the workers’ movement.

This is not just our experience, but the experience of a host of other organisations and individuals. If this open letter represents recognition of your past mistakes that would be welcome. However, there are a number of points in the letter that give the impression that this is not the case.

The need for such a left alternative in the general election is clear. However, you make no mention in your letter of the attempt to provide such an alternative in the European elections, No2EU-Yes to Democracy.

No2EU

No2EU was set up precisely in order to provide an alternative to both the three establishment capitalist parties, and to the far-right racist BNP. In the coming weeks the components of No2EU will discuss trying to build on the campaign in order to create a broader challenge for the general election.

To put out an ‘appeal for unity’ which writes No2EU out of existence – with no prior formal or even informal approach to its constituent organisations – will not be considered serious by those seeking a way forward.

As you know, No2EU was initiated by the transport workers’ union, the RMT, and involved ourselves, the Socialist Party, as well as the Communist Party of Britain, the Alliance for Green Socialism, and others.

This was the first time in over a century that a trade union stood on a national basis independently of Labour. Its candidates included many of the most militant fighters in the trade union movement today – including Rob Williams, Linamar car plant’s convenor, the convenors of Basildon and Enfield Visteon plants, and members of the Lindsey construction workers’ strike committee.

Yet you make no reference to it in your letter, saying only that, when SWP members were asked who people should vote for, “the lack of a single, united left alternative meant there was no clear answer available”. We find this incredible. As you know we have argued in favour of the development of a new formation to the left of Labour for many years.

Whenever attempts have been made in that direction we have called for a vote for them, including for Respect, even though we had criticisms of it. Yet many of your members called for a vote for the Greens rather than No2EU in the European elections.

If, as seems to be the case, you were opposed to No2EU, you should honestly and openly explain why, in order to allow a discussion to take place on what the basis for a new left alternative would be. To try to ignore the existence of an initiative as significant as No2EU undermines your stated aim of opening a discussion on creating an electoral alternative for the general election. Nor is your dismissal of its vote in Socialist Worker a serious analysis (which, incidentally, was only the second time No2EU has ever been mentioned in Socialist Worker).

You state that “despite Labour’s vote collapsing, overall the radical left did not register gains in last Thursday’s elections. Between them the Socialist Labour Party and No2EU gained two percent of the vote nationwide, the latter trailing Arthur Scargill’s party. Five years ago Respect polled 4.84 percent across London, beating the BNP. The combined left vote in London was down this year to 2.1 percent.”

Left votes

No2EU received 153,236 votes, 1% of the total cast. Arthur Scargill’s Socialist Labour Party (SLP) gained a marginally higher 173,115 votes, 1.1%. Given that No2EU was founded only weeks before election day, we believe its vote was creditable and, particularly when taken alongside the vote for the SLP, gives an indication of the potential to create a fighting left electoral alternative.

In 2004 you struck a very different tone than you have this time, when you declared that: “Respect [which you were then part of] got the best votes the left has seen for many years” (Socialist Worker 19 June 2004). Yet Respect’s national result was 252,216 or 1.65%, less than the combined vote of the SLP and No2EU this time around.

Unfortunately, we believe that your brushing aside of No2EU is an indication that your methods have not changed. You claim that: “Unity is not a luxury. It is a necessity” but as a party you have never been prepared to countenance working together with others in an honest and open fashion unless you hold the reins; hence your wrecking of the Socialist Alliance and your splitting from Respect. Far from playing a positive role, your approach has actually complicated and delayed steps towards a new mass workers’ party in England and Wales.

More recently you have almost completely withdrawn from electoral politics, except as an echo of the mainstream capitalist parties’ appeal to ‘vote against the BNP’. However, you have continued with the same high-handed ‘rule or ruin’ approach in the industrial and trade union fields.

Shop Stewards’ Network

Your organisational high-handedness has been combined with a completely mistaken political approach to the significant struggle of the Lindsey construction workers, which you have dismissed as nationalist. We, by contrast, as Mark Serwotka, PCS general secretary, pointed out at PCS conference, were able to intervene in Lindsey and win the strikers to a clear, class programme.

Your organisational methods were starkly demonstrated at the Fight for the Right to Work conference (which itself was called in direct competition with the conference of the National Shop Stewards’ Network conference taking place two weeks later, despite the SWP having members on the NSSN steering committee).

The NSSN has been established for three years and has national backing from the RMT and POA trade unions. Yet your members voted en bloc at the Right to Work conference to defeat the following motion moved by a Socialist Party member:

“To recognise the important position of the National Shop Stewards’ Network (NSSN) in acting as the central coordinating body for rank and file union members, unorganised workers and the unemployed in the fight against unemploym
ent. The NSSN, open to all workers, in its three years of activity, has brought together militant workers from many political traditions with a recent history of defeating the bosses’ offensives and has national backing from the RMT and POA trade unions. As such, conference resolves to direct its efforts through this body.”

Our approach to working with others is very different to yours. We have worked together with trade unionists from different political backgrounds to build the NSSN. And we enthusiastically took part in No2EU, despite differences between ourselves and other participants on some issues, because we saw it as a serious attempt by a national trade union to try to build a left political alternative.

This does not mean we abandoned our own programme. No2EU was an electoral bloc that brought together different organisations around a common programme in order to maximise its electoral impact. The programme of No2EU was inevitably limited as a result, although not, as at least some of your members have suggested, nationalist. On the contrary it called for “international solidarity of working-class people”.

At the same time, the different component organisations had complete freedom to produce their own material. The Socialist Party, for example, was able to produce leaflets putting forward our socialist programme and explaining that our candidates, if elected, would only take a workers’ wage. This is a considerable advance on the position you adopted in the Socialist Alliance, where you opposed such latitude being allowed for constituent organisations. Have you since changed your position on this?

A new electoral alternative will not be created simply by any of the existing socialist organisations declaring their initiative to be ‘the’ alternative for workers, as the mistakes of the previous fifteen years demonstrate.

Only the active participation of broader sections of militant workers and young people in any new electoral alternative will mark it as a significant step forward. This was the importance of No2EU, which we believe should now be built on, with a new name, for the general election, with the aim of involving, first and foremost, larger numbers of militant trade unionists and young people. However, as part of such a broad project we would support the right of all socialist organisations, including the SWP, to take part.

Defeat the BNP

The election of two BNP MEPs does add even more urgency to the need to create a genuine mass voice for working class people. The BNP vote in Yorkshire and the North West actually went down, but the collapse of New Labour’s vote allowed them to get MEPs elected. Moreover, the BNP’s vote did increase markedly in some areas, all of which were working class communities which historically were bastions for Labour. As a recent YouGov poll of BNP voters concluded the BNP made gains “because many voters feel insecure and let down by the main parties”.

As we have repeatedly argued against yourselves and others, the BNP will not be undermined just by campaigns denouncing them as Nazis. Alongside the development of mass demonstrations against the BNP by the trade unions and young people, a crucial part of undermining the far-right will be building a political alternative.

If you were serious about creating an electoral bloc for the general election, why did you not approach the Socialist Party or, as stated before, any of the other component parts of No2EU, for a discussion on the way forward?

Selected individual Socialist Party members around the country, largely members of our party in prominent positions in the labour movement, have been sent copies of your open letter, yet you did not approach the democratically-elected National Committee of the Socialist Party to discuss your appeal. Nor have you invited the party to debate these issues at Marxism this year, despite us debating with you at our national event, Socialism 2008 last year, and our request that you reciprocate at your event.

This method has elements, albeit on a smaller scale, of the approach of the Communist Parties in the early 1930s, who made declarations for a ‘united front from below’ but who refused to engage in negotiations with the leaderships of other workers’ organisations.

Our experience, and the experience of others on the left, regarding your party’s willingness to engage in serious collaboration, is not encouraging. However, if you have reassessed and changed your methods, and are now willing to work together with others towards the creation of ‘a socialist alternative’ for the general election, we will of course welcome this.

Unfortunately, all the indications are that this letter is an attempt to convince your own members, who must have doubts on your previous approach towards working with others, that you stand for ‘unity’, rather than a serious proposal to facilitate a step towards independent political representation for the working class.

Yours fraternally,
Socialist Party Executive Committee

See http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18114

77 responses to “A reply to 'An open letter to the left from the Socialist Workers Party'.”

  1. That has been roughly speaking the SP approach to “unity” in Australia as well – of course they are for unity, after a thorough round of self-criticism by all others participating. Not a very constructive approach, however many of their criticisms we may agree with.

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  2. Went to national shop stewards network conference on saturday and thought it was excellent.

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  3. I think it’s a little odd to place the Socialist Party’s reply alongside the cover of Socialist Resistance, since that might give the mistaken impression that the image either reflects the SP’s line, or that the SP’s letter reflects SR’s view of the Open Letter.

    The SR cover shows its wish for the anti-capitalist organisations in Britain to build a united ecologist and socialist alternative. The SP poses things differently: a new workers’ party that reflects the politics of the leadership of the left unions: that means it prioritises, for example, the RMT, FBU and PCS union leaders, rather than the unity of explicitly anti-capitalist and socialist organisations.

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  4. Looking at the positive:
    However, if you have reassessed and changed your methods, and are now willing to work together with others towards the creation of ‘a socialist alternative’ for the general election, we will of course welcome this.
    And it does end “Yours fraternally”.

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  5. I’ve heard these comments from a few SWP members, like they object to how they’re regarded by the left (and everyone else) as if its our fault.
    Its not our fault, its your fault.
    If the SWP want to do something to change how they are regarded, they’ll stop complaining about it and actually address the root of the problem – themselves.
    So come up with some concrete demonstrations of how they have changed and maybe people will change their attitude towards them.
    I’d suggest for a start call the date of the conference, agree a process that is open, open up their campaigns to the left, abolish SWSS and found united socialist societies and then maybe people will take you seriously, don’t do any of that and they (we)’ll carry on moaning.

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  6. Come off it Bill. If the SWP call a conference YOU will be amongst the first to complain that you weren’t consulted about the date (and that it clashes with something else)!
    And whats abolishing SWSS got to do with anything? I don’t recall that ever being an issue before.
    Are you in favour of the SP immediately abolishing their student societies or your evil-twin’s abolishing Revo (if it still exists)?

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  7. Actually yes. I’m in favour of all the groups abolishing their student societies and forming one socialist student society.
    No I wouldn’t complain about the date, I don’t care about dates, and someones got to call it, I assume the SWP have got calendars so they can avoid clashes.
    I think a little more reflection is required from the SWP, “everybody hates us and we don’t care” is fine for Millwall fans, but not if you actually don’t want to be hated.

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  8. Foraging in the depths Avatar
    Foraging in the depths

    The SP denouncing someone else’s initiative? What a surprise. Whatever the SWP’s failings, I don’t associate the SP or its tradition with non-sectarianism either. Both groups have been guilty of “we are the answer – join us!”

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  9. So time to do something different then eh?

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  10. What a tragic response from the SP.

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  11. The suggestion to form one socialist student society is actually quite a good one Rob. Imagine if all socialist minded students got together in one organisation on campus. Imagine what impact that would have in terms of being able to bring socialism onto the campus, united around the idea that we need socialism but not necessarily all agreeing on how to get there. It would have the potential to be a vibrant arena of discussion on campus with groups free to distribute their particular “program” whilst engaging in comradely discussion and united action. A campus free of sect mentality, instead full of a desire to take the class forward and work out together out to get out of the mess the left is in.

    Young people are the future of our movement, without them we have no future. Non-sectarian, open democratic socialist societies might just be the way to get young people engaged again with socialist ideas instead of the tried and failed method of winning people to small or not so small organisations full of hackish members blindly convinced that they have all the answers to the class struggle.

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  12. A united student socialist society might come out of a long process whereby the left groups as a whole converge into a single party- it can hardly be a pre-condition for this process to happen.
    Besides which, the SP response really doesn’t give much optimism that their student groups would merge with SWSS if hell remains unfrozen.

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  13. i’d suggest that the left (at least the SWP and SP) will not unite, UNLESS a larger, more signifficant force, with social weight, will take the lead in creating a new party.

    i think this is one of the reasons why the RMT, PCS, FBU, maybe CWU or others in the future, are so important.

    of course a new union formed party will have implications on its politics, both negative (limited anti-capitalist or socialist content maybe) and positive (working class based).

    the left should not wait for this, but should still aim for unity where possible, probably in a federated alliance at this stage, because realistically, no one is going to volunter for the swp to control them, and that’s a fair enough point. trust has to be built in alliances or united campaigns first.

    the non-swp left can probably unite faster, because we have no fear of a take over / control freakery issues. obviously that doesn’t solve much, given that the swp are still largest group.

    anyway…

    best wishes,

    ks

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  14. My basic point is that I don’t think the SWP proposal is serious as they don’t appear to want to do anything to bring unity about, it appears they won’t even do the absolute minimum, name the day of a conference.
    If they want to change how they’re perceived then they need to do something radically different.
    Instead they go back to the default position, blameeveryone else for not liking them, after all, none of its their fault now is it?

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  15. A deranged response from SP.

    When will they get the fact that the No2EU vote was not a positive vote for Crow and his gaggle of Stalinist sadcases but a vote by confused europhobic voters?

    On a positive note, several other left groups other than the SP have reacted positively, and it looks as if unity may happen, without the CPB/SP.

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  16. Of course the SWP isn’t serious – if they were they’d have turned up to a meeting the other week to which they were invited along with all other serious organisations. They didn’t send a single rep. Their ‘unity’ call is just bullshit for the troops. The SP response was spot on – cthis isn’t a game and the SWP need telling in no uncertain terms that the SP won’t put up with their crap anymore. I suggest the SP response probably echoes what a lot of others think. If the Jim Page on this thread is the one in the SLP, I’d be careful about bandying around words like deranged, considering your in a meaningless, personality cult sect and when it comes to Stalinism, King Arthur bows to no-one.

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  17. The problem with all these groups, SWP, SP, AWL, WP etc. is that they’re bureaucractically degenerate, in the sense that they’re run in the interests of a full time “socialist” bureaucracy who have a vested interest in ensuring that they, and therefore we, never unite.
    A condition for that is paradoxically that they all have to pretend that they do indeed want to “unite”, but that none of the others do.
    This is a necessary myth designed to protect the interests of their various bureaucrats. After all how could they guarantee they’d be paid, that they would have the “position” they wallow in, have the privelege of being “leaders” if there was a genuinely united non bureaucratic organisation?
    Hence they’re always innocent (of whatever it is they’re accused of) and its always everyone else’s fault, except theirs.
    E H Carr’s History of the Bolshevik Party (vol 1 chapter 8/9) explains the process that allowed this to occur within the Bolshevik Party. The similarities between all these groups and the degenerate party that had emerged by the early 1920s is beyond obvious.

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  18. Here’s an interesting definition of democratic centralism that I found in E H Carr’s book (I’m not claiming btw any originally in that whatsoever), which applies to all the groups I just described;

    “”a) the application of the elective principle to all leading organs of the party, from the highest to the lowest
    b) the periodic accountability of the party organs to their respective party organisations
    c) strict party discipline and subordination of the minority to the majority
    d) the absolutely binding character of the decisions of the higher organs upon the lower organs and upon all party members”

    EH Carr The Bolshevik Revolution Volume 1 p197

    It was a definition developed by the Stalinists in 1934.

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  19. Rob argues that a merged student socialist society isn’t a precondition for different left groups top work together.

    It isn’t but it would be a very useful first step.

    I think it would make sense for students to join a Socialist Society that both actively campaigns and debates issues. Of course there would still be different publications and strands but having a united socialist student society seems a good idea to me.

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  20. Hospital Worker Avatar
    Hospital Worker

    Same old shite from the SP, it seems. So much for the dawn of a new age.

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  21. but may be rather than look to others for a new dawn we should start working together when and where we can in campaigns etc.
    let’s start local and build from there

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  22. Bill, what you say about the SWP could be said as easily about the SP:
    “My basic point is that I don’t think the SWP proposal is serious as they don’t appear to want to do anything to bring unity about, it appears they won’t even do the absolute minimum, name the day of a conference.
    If they want to change how they’re perceived then they need to do something radically different.”

    The SP, of course, has also not named a date – despite the pre-election talk of a convention of No2EU supporters. I can’t speak for other parties but, as a Respect member, I am not under the impression that the SP has made any approach to Respect’s leadership (which is one element of the left) while the SWP has (and, indeed, the SWP have met Socialist Resistance as well). So the SP could think about taking its own guidance about developing dialogue. As far as I can see, it’s just waiting for the RMT.

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  23. The SP fetishises unions where it has influence, and writes off others where it has none. The PCS, for example, is now seen as a purely working class union by the SP. The NUJ, for example, is not. Even though members in both face low pay and shit working conditions.

    The SWP likes to criticise things like Lindsey where it has no influence.

    As it turns out, full-timers from both like to throw eggs at Nick Grffiin. British eggs for British professional revolutionaries all round!

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  24. Hospital Worker, Swappie eh? Enough said. Duncan Chapel, what are you talking about, the ‘SP hasn’t named a date’? The RMT initiated a meettng a couple of weeks after the EC elections, to which all left organisations were invited. The SWP didn’t turn up. Keep up, ffs. And what Left Behind is drivelling on about the SP and unions, God knows.

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  25. Left Behind is talking nonsense about the NUJ – maybe s/he ought to ask Jeremy Dear about the role played by SP members in the union, particularly in South Wales.

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  26. I think Duncan’s right and the sniffy response of SP members just confirms it.

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  27. Doug, says “The RMT initiated a meettng a couple of weeks after the EC elections, to which all left organisations were invited. ”

    Please explain. Which organisations were invited and how was that invite communicated? There are quite few supporters of No2EU who post on this blog and this is the first that anyone I can recall has mentioned a meeting was taking place to which ‘all left organisations were invited.’

    When did it take place? Who attended? What was the outcome? is there a report of the meeting? What was decided? Surely if we are all in favour of unity it might be a good idea to share the news.

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  28. billj,

    The problem with all these groups, SWP, SP, AWL, WP etc. is that they’re bureaucractically degenerate

    So, basically, the problem is every other group on the left except your own?

    Presumably the solution is that every other group should become like yours then or just join Permanent Revolution!

    Hence they’re always innocent (of whatever it is they’re accused of) and its always everyone else’s fault, except theirs.

    I don’t think you’ve appreciated the irony of this statement coming after your statement that I’ve quoted above!

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  29. Ironic? You bet.
    The point is one needs to explain why these groups act as they do. What common features do they share and how are they really different.
    The common feature that they share, is that they are all run by a bunch of socialist “full timers”, a bureaucracy which controls their entire functioning. Of course this bureaucracy is subject to election.
    But what differences does that make, given that they control the functioning of all their local agents, are able to manipulate opinion through their role at the centre, and most importantly as the members are required to agree with this structure as a pre-condition for their membership.
    They all claim the problem with democratic centralism, as they understand it and operate it, applies to all the other groups except them.
    So what’s different about my group? We have consciously not hired any full timers. We do not have the rigid bureaucratic structure of the rest of the left, we are re-looking at how democratic centralism can actually operate without being an excuse for bureaucratic tyranny and hierarchy. And that is materially different ironic or not.

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  30. daveinstokenewington Avatar
    daveinstokenewington

    All of this presumably has nothing to do with the fact that your lot are too skint to maintain fulltimers anyway, Bill?

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  31. Billj,

    I think what is materially different is that you just can’t afford full timers yet. My perception within the AWL is that our centre doesn’t have enough people, and we can’t afford to pay the ones we do have very much. Maybe that explains why the membership are able to keep them in check. But it’s very different from the picture you paint.

    I think it is not necessarily democratic centralism, but the fact that mature tendancies will almost always cohere around a set of political ideas which don’t tend to change slowly. Hence the common splits when new situations demand old ideas are re-thought.

    The main problem with the SWP is not that they have bureaucratic mechanisms, but that their politics are opportunitistic because they lack consistent ideological foundation. They are conciously populist. Their senior cadre understand this, their middle cadre are completely unaware and therefore people with 10-15 years in drop-out when some new turn is the final straw and keep arguing their “stuck in time” politics long after the SWP has moved on.

    I don’t know about workers power and pr. I always thought that you were both reasonable sets of people and that I’d be happy to be in either group and maintain minority positions on some things if for some reason AWL ceased to exist.

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  32. I’ve thought for 20 years that ‘Leninism’ – in both its ‘Trotskyist’ and ‘Stalinist’ forms has had a negative impact on working class politics in the UK. It has produced unattractive, sterile cults which are bitterly sectarian and indulge in juvenile machiavellian manouvering thinking its ‘politics’. They are desperately heirarchical, have little internal debate or diversity and are only interested in collaboration with other groups when they are not strong enough to dominate. They think they have a ‘superior’ consciousness than their audience and really would love to tell the workers what to do.. The workers, sick to death of being told what to do all the time anyway, have never been that enthusiastic. For me, a future for the Left in the UK means we stop worshiping Lenin and start thinking for ourselves.

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  33. One thing we’re not short of is money.

    The AWL are maybe the most unpleasant of the bureaucratic socialist groups, they combine a particularly repulsive chauvinist, neo-racist set of “politics”, essentially based on the foreign policy of UK imperialism, with all of the bureaucratic excesses of the rest of them. They really have nothing going for them at all.

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  34. “if for some reason AWL ceased to exist.”

    oh what a happy day that would be.

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  35. How old is Matgamna?

    There will always be centrism and centrists, those who vacilate between reform and revolution. But during the long years of the Cold War and the glacial nature of politics at least in the imperialist heartlands of the west the centrists became part of the very system of politics itself. Propaganda groups with a revolving door policy on membership that created managable little bureaucracies and comfort zones. Now in the new multi-polar world they look like the anachronisms they became and every attempt at political intevention ends in either populist nonsense or ultra-liberal whakiness. Even as propaganda groups they are no good producing very little, no nothing, by way of theory simply regurgitating trendy stalinist hacks or tail-ending the `leftish’ critiques of the world order that the universities churn out.

    Centrism in the new situation will revert to its transitory nature, disolving, collapsing under contradictions, re-emerging in new form and disolving again but always sabotaging the effort to build politically a movement that actually can and wants to over-turn capitalism.

    What is needed is to build the labour movement and set it in motion and within that movement a socialist core that is theoretically informed but politically astute and which can guide that movement to success.

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  36. I think the point about fulltimers is a serious one.

    Is there a case for fulltimers? Yes I think so but the balance should always be kept on the low side- full time agitators and organisers may be able to aid the class struggle but in my opinion organisations as small as PR, WP don’t need them- AWL I’d be dubious about the need and I think the SWP have too many.

    On the AWL in general I’m at odds with Bill in some ways. I think they have very mistaken politics on questions of imperialism and sometimes quite disgraceful positions (I won’t go into it here you’ll be pleased to know- they may feel likewise about me) and they have some features that might sometimes seem to put the group first and indulge in intergroup rivalry. However, I think there are many campaigns where we have had a productive working relationship- antifascism, feminist fightback, campaigns against deportations and immigration controls.

    I’m with Will mainly on the degeneration of Trotskyist politics. Whilst I think he exaggerates and stereotypes a little it’s not that far off many people’s experience of the left as far too interested in promoting themselves, too hierarchical, too obsessed with discipline and following party lines rather than promoting independent thinking and activity necessary for the working class to emancipate ourselves.

    I think it’s back to the drawing board- let’s start learning new ways of struggle based on popular mobilisations whether the Lindsey strikes, antideportation campaigns, occupations against job losses or school closures, the struggles in the forcibly underdeveloped semi-colonies. And always promote independnet working class mobilisation and self-activity.

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  37. I don’t agree with David Ellis and I’m sure we’ll continue to disagree in some areas (and that’s good!)
    but this is spot-on I think:

    “What is needed is to build the labour movement and set it in motion and within that movement a socialist core that is theoretically informed but politically astute and which can guide that movement to success.”

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  38. Should have said I don’t ALWAYS agree with David… but this is spot-on!

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  39. What I’m talking about is not whether its convenient to have a paid employee doing some agitating, but about the social function of the cast of socialist bureaucrats.
    Its not by accident that Peter Taaffe is the General Secretary of the Socialist Party the title invented by Stalin as he usurped control of the Bolsheviks.
    These socialist bureaucracies use their caste power to control the various left groups and ensure that they are run not in the interests of the working class, although inevitably given that they are socialist bureaucracies their interests occasionally coincide with those of the workers, but in their own interests.
    Hence all of these groups, notwithstanding their nominal differences, are exactly the same, akin to the various brands of cornflakes in Asda.

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  40. I’m not disagreeing with you, Bill. I’m just saying that at certain points it can be useful o have some full time agitators or workers for the movement or the party.

    But this has beome massively distorted in many of the groups today- on that I agree.

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  41. daveinstokenewington Avatar
    daveinstokenewington

    The SP stand out as the only sizeable leftwing force – the various microsects don’t count – to have done the SWP the courtesy of an extended public response.

    If the SWP were serious about unity, the would print the reply in Socialist Worker and then take up the criticisms. They haven’t.,

    Instead, they print inane letters from low-level trade union activists and known fellow-travellers. I think this betokens a certain lack of seriousness.

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  42. Its not by accident that Peter Taaffe is the General Secretary of the Socialist Party the title invented by Stalin as he usurped control of the Bolsheviks.

    I met a half-Burmese guy round a friend’s house once, who’d been having trouble getting so see his mother in Burma. When I asked what she did, he said that she was General Secretary of the Natonal League for Democracy. Would bill j put that Nobel Peace Prize winner in the same category as Stalin and Peter Taaffe?

    dave in N16 – If the SWP were serious about unity, the would print the reply in Socialist Worker and then take up the criticisms.
    That’s a serious point. I think there is an often correct tendency in the SWP to look beyond the organisations of the far left, but printing and discussing the SP’s reply would put the latter on the spot a little more.

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  43. Its not by accident that Peter Taaffe is the General Secretary of the Socialist Party the title invented by Stalin as he usurped control of the Bolsheviks.

    It’s no accident because Peter Taaffe is exactly the same as Stalin if not worse!!! Only Permanent Revolution remains pure of this bureaucratic, Stalinist degeneration that other left sects wallow in.

    Pure silliness.

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  44. I’m not sure that the defining feature of PR is its lack of a full-time apparatus (I hope not anyway) and I think it would be techno-centric to view the failings of the left primarily in terms of this. Jason is right to point to the need for full-time activists to play a organising role in the class. There is a problem of bureaucratism setting in when those full-timers are for life and unaccountable, the solution, rotation of full-time organisers and whether an organisations chooses to have such a structure will depend on the context and the tasks of the organisation.

    In any case I think members of far left organisations should be seriously question the methods of party building in the latter half of the 20th century, the relationship of the revolutionary to the working class and the appalling legacy of sectarianism amongst the far left, something we have all be party to, including members of Permanent Revolution.

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  45. Duncan perhaps leave off the silly swipes? What’s the point?
    I was very careful to say that we need to go back to the drawing board- not that PR alone are exempt from sectarianism. That comment would indeed be pure silliness- except no one said it.

    I think the way forward has to be to learn from campaigns, to work together for example in the struggles against sackings in eduction taking place at the moment, including an attack on a union rep who happens to be a member of the SWP.

    Two examples here
    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2756
    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2755

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  46. how does all the discussion tie in with the idea of “professional revoutionaries”, dedicating their lifes to the struggle?

    can we have a strong full time apparatus, which we need to organise a serious revolutionary party, and not have a ‘bureaucracy’ spring up?

    one idea is that any executive or national committee should not be consisting of full timers. but, if the ec are the elected leadership, and this presumes they have some talents, then surely they need to be full time to maximise this?

    i think there is a problem with the revolutionary party model that has been adopted. but i don’t think there is any easy answer or just some reforms that can be made. i suspect it comes down ultimately to culture, and leninist theory.

    even with reforms, wont cliques just establish themselves in control anyway?

    i think that maybe a healthy revolutionary party can only really exist when it has many thousands of cadres, thousands more informed members, beyond that many supporters and observers in the working class, and maybe then the leadership / full time apparatus really are held to account and selected properly.

    even in this situation you can have the ‘incumbent’ problem. like in the unions today, the incumbent bureaucracy can use the apparatus to retain control, ‘deal with’ opponents and so on. with a massive number of cadre, educated and informed, this is a lot harder to do though.

    anyway, i’ve no idea what the answers are! the various groups have disillusioned many thousands of active militants with their bureaucratic methods and clique rulers. something needs to change. how much standard ‘leninism’ can we really discard? or do we just need to re-evaluate leninism?

    who the hell knows!!

    ks

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  47. Just took at look at the this week’s Socialist Worker on the web. Going by the responses to their Open Letter, everyone thinks its a good idea. Well that’s all right then.

    The rest of the far left just does not exist in the eyes of this blinkered organisation. Are far as the SW leadership are concerned they are the only revolutionary socialists carrying out struggles in workplaces and communities. Where’s the debate comrades. Not in your paper, that’s for sure.
    Things aren’t looking good.

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  48. I sympathise with many of ks’s points.

    There are no easy answers but part of it has to be gtting nvolved, increasing activity and widening participation for example in a campaign to save a local school. We’re not talking grandiose leaps forward here but incrfemental steps that are nevertheless real.

    I still really like the idea of a united socialist sociaety or left forum- let’s start local.

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  49. “a very public sociologist, on July 1st, 2009 at 10:53 am Said:

    Left Behind is talking nonsense about the NUJ – maybe s/he ought to ask Jeremy Dear about the role played by SP members in the union, particularly in South Wales.”

    Funnily enough Phil, I know quite a bit more about the NUJ work in Swansea than you might think.

    My point still stands. The NUJ and any other union which has a lack of SP activists within it is not worth bothering with, but unions like the PCS are held up as shining lights of perfection. It is a nonsense and it is dishonest.

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  50. Centrism is normally a transitory thing. Under Stalinism it gained state sponsorship and became bureaucratised and relatively stable. During the Cold War the centrist groupings in the west gained stability and comfort and in the unchanging political conditions spawned small bureaucracies and stablilty of their own. They became part of the political system. With the collapse of Stalinism and the emergence of fatal political and economic crises in the imperialist heart lands those centrist groupings find themselves in constant crisis too. They lurch left and right shedding members and influence. In short, centrism is back to its unstable condition and cannot stabilise itself in the new conditions. New forms spring up as propaganda groups or break offs from the right but they are transitory and will break their backs on the coming contradictions. But a consistent theoretically driven and politically intelligent and flexible organisation of radical socialists with growing and eventually mass support can emerge. The situation can no longer sustain bureaucracies in their comfort zones whether reformist or centrist on the basis of economic stability and imperialist super-profits.

    The collapse of the Soviet Union to the right and back to capitalism and imperialism was a disaster for the international working class but it is an ill wind that blows nobody any good and the end of state sponsored centrism was the one thing worthy of celebration along with the beginning of the end for the Cold War sects.

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  51. I agree with some of David’s points though he writes in too schematic a way I feel and his position is shot through with an overoptimisitc catastrophism.

    I think that bureaucracy in the labour movement predates Stalinism- labour bureaucracy emerges in the early 20th century as a tool to control the working class. The bureaucratic degeneration of the Russian revolution was consolidated and ossified by Stalinism and led to the emergence of a bureaucratic caste ruling over the working class and doing massive damage to the cause of socialism such that contrary to what David claims its collpase can hardly be lamented- what can be lamented quite rightly is that Stalinism’s implosion led to capitalist restoration and not the political victory of the working class robbed of power by the bureaucratic caste.

    To a large extent this has influenced Trotskyist politics as well.

    However, to claim that the situation can no longer sustain bureaucracises is way too optimisitc.

    We should not depend on the ever loomong crisis beloved of certain brands of Trotskyism but instead sort out the issues for ourselves, rebuilding a labour movement and a socialist party within it based on new ways of working and organising primarily by actually asking people what they want.

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  52. Regardless of the concern the SP has, this statement is tactically stupid. It is effectively placing preconditions on the SWP to work with them, preconditions that the SWP will most likely not accept just as the SP would not accept them if the positions were reversed. The problems between these two organizations cannot be resolved through statements, articles and writing. They have to be resolved through working together around common goals – ie: creating a new socialist electoral alliance – at the local, regional and national levels. This could at least provide a concrete basis upon which criticisms of one another parties can be raised.

    Aside from those in both parties who will defer to their party leadership, most SP and SWP members are obviously more than capable of making up their own minds about whether an electoral party is needed on the left. Most obviously agree. But this statement just throws a wrench in the process, putting yet another roadblock in the way of SP and SWP members working together, especially at the local level where such cooperation needs to begin so the leaderships of both parties have grassroots pressure on them to avoid the sort of sectariana displayed in the SP response to the SWP’s open letter.

    Within weeks, the SP is now slinging mud, which has the effect of diverting attention away from the obvious task at hand. This is too bad. Maybe the SP is sore about the SWP’s disagreement with them over the refineries strike. Fine, I think there are legitimate arguments to have there, but obviously they are not going to be resolved unless both organization get stuck in to a common project. Then they can sit down and actually work through what they can do on the picket lines in disputes where BJ4BW slogans are obviously being used whether it’s minority sentiment of the pickets or being pushed by union leaders.

    I think the SP’s response to the SWP’s open letter is a pretty clear-cut case of sectarianism. Way to go. I hope the SP members on the ground have more sense than this.

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  53. I agree with this-
    “The problems between these two organizations cannot be resolved through statements, articles and writing. They have to be resolved through working together around common goals ”

    However, djn then explains this as
    “ie: creating a new socialist electoral alliance – at the local, regional and national levels. ”

    This puts the cart before the horse. Just making an electoral alliance in the absence of local campaigning and class struggle will result in derisory votes. What is most important is uniting in struggle in local campaigns- left forums darwing in activists against the BNP, against privatisation, for better services under community control etc.

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  54. `I think that bureaucracy in the labour movement predates Stalinism- labour bureaucracy emerges in the early 20th century as a tool to control the working class.’

    (abuse deleted) Try reading what I wrote. I was discussing centrism not the reformist labour and trade union bureaucracies. Everybody who you and billj discuss with get this `I’m talking to children’ routine. You are a thoroughly alienating propaganda sectlet who can’t even get their propaganda right. If you want to discuss with people try engaging with what they say (abuse deleted).

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  55. And you’re rude. You write like a teenager with torrets.

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  56. Strangely, I was agreeing with David about the role of the bureaucracy, though disagreeing with his catastrophism.

    Part of the point I was trying to make is that the left must change- David sadly seems stuck in a time warp of rude hostility to anyone who disagrees with him. At least he later edited out the abuse I suppose.

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  57. tho I guess that was Liam editing

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  58. Jason – you’re right, it is putting the cart before the horse. The groundwork has to be laid through various struggles – in the workplace, against the fascists, and around basic questions of each community, especially housing, etc – and only then will there be some real basis for a successful electoral alliance. If these sorts of campaigns can be done through SP, SWP and other lefties working together, there will be a basis for an electoral alternative in that community. We have to remember this because obviously we can construct an electoral alliance to the left of Labour, but it actually has to be a genuine, electable alternative, or at least be a serious threat.

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  59. What worries me about all this is the NO2EU’s top down approach with almost pre-determind agenda. It seems to me that it is a left nationalist response to the BNP/UKIP with little room for genuine democratic debate and structures. These problems seem to afflict most left formations which form to the left of Labour.
    But these are the forces we have to work with.

    On the SWP few if any activits and other left groups can surely trust them again. They may be a force in terms of relative numbers to the rest of the left but not in the wider context of society.

    The success of the SSP is that it drew in individual socialists and new layers from the poll tax and other struggles. These dwarfed the old Millies in numbers and they had to chnage their mode of operation and aslo saw the light.

    Maybe it will take such a series of major struggles over the coming years against the onslaught from capitalsim that will create the numbers and situation to form a genuine democratic new left party which is not dominated by the old left groups. Let’s hope so.

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  60. `David sadly seems stuck in a time warp of rude hostility to anyone who disagrees with him.’

    Disagreement I can handle. Dishonest readings I can’t stand.

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  61. it’s certainly true that major new struggles could bring new activists, new leaders, and new organisations onto the left – and help develop a new party, a more substanitial party with more activists and social weight than we could have now just by uniting the ‘left’ and a few smallish unions.

    that’s not to say we can afford to wait for this development.

    there is no reason why any new small left party now could not merge with or grow from any future mass movements, or even win outrght leadership. this depends on a number of factors, not least the programme and approach any new party takes to future mass social or industrial movements.

    i think the best we can hope for in the short term is a new electoral bloc, leading to a new alliance type structure. sad but true.

    maybe this would at least draw together some local activists together, inside some kind of national structure.

    anyway… who the hell knows!!!

    comradely greetings,

    ks

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  62. “Disagreement I can handle. Dishonest readings I can’t stand.”

    Yeah right.

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  63. “Disagreement I can handle. Dishonest readings I can’t stand.”

    Well, that’s better. However, as directed at me, I think it’s fair to say that in my opinion you misinterpret ed me and then became abusive which you now say was because I was dishonest. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear or if that annoyed you.

    You wrote before that centrism was given a more than transitory basis because of the persistence of the bureaucracy under Stalinism. I partly agree though I think the term centrism has outlived its usefulness partly because it has been used as such a term of abuse. But if you mean that Stalinism’s persitence and ossicifcation of the bureaucracy buttressed a form of ‘socialism’ based on flight from reality, dogma and overt hostility to others then I agree with you.

    However, I was didagreeing with the idea that this will necessarily wither away because of the current capitalist crisis and the lack of Stalinist states (with a couple of exceptions anyway).

    I think it will take a much more conscious remaking of socialism learning from real struggles, critically and humbly reexamining our history and being patient enough to engag in daialogue with all sorts of people including those who know very little of the arcane history of Trotskyist politics but who have very detailed knowledge of other things and including patient dialogue with those in different groups including those with whom we may be predisposed to disagree.

    The left has failed miserably and yet the objective conditions are there for at least a slight revivsl- widespread hatred and disillusion with social democracy (rebranded as New Labour), some very sporadic but signficant revival of worker militancy (the Lindsey dispute being the pre-eminent in Britain at the moment), climate change, movements for change in Iran and others. We are far from a good place but if we can recreate a left open to discussion and new ideas and tolerant of different ways of working we can begin to get somewhere.

    It’s as vital as ever.

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  64. `I think the term centrism has outlived its usefulness partly because it has been used as such a term of abuse.’

    Centrism is an indispensable Marxist political category and those who would ditch hard won scientific characterisations for diplomatic reasons are of course … centrist. Here is a quote from Trotsky:

    `• Centrism voluntarily proclaims its hostility to reformism but it is silent about centrism more than that it thinks the very idea of centrism “obscure”, “arbitrary”, etc.: In other words centrism dislikes being called centrism..

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  65. But used as an insult its a waste of time. That’s why you’re no Trotsky.

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  66. I’m sorry you are insulted by it but no Marxist would drop a hard won scientific category because it upset the delicate sensibilities of its enemies.

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  67. Unfortunately you seem to have no conception of “self” David. Reflect a little. Consider the possibility you may be wrong from time time.
    But in the meantime just stop being rude.

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  68. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the SWP (Callinicos?) say only recently that there was no space for a left alternative to Labour (this was when the SWP was paddling about with Left List/Left Alternative, which both had an obvious stink o’ death about them, and the SWP wanted to put the kybosh on any other proposals from rival groupings)?

    What’s changed, other than the BNP’s hijacking of a good part of the old Labour vote in some northern towns (which is anything squeezes that left space ever further)?

    I can’t help but think that the SWP makes this stuff up as it goes along. Why on earth should any individual socialist or grouping take seriously the SWP’s letter if it can’t develop and hold to a credible critique of the state of the British left that can last more than a few months?

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  69. Dave – times change, people discover that what they said yesterday may or may not have been correct then but it’s certainly wrong now. Only fools and dogmatists keep doing the same thing in changed circumstances.

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  70. David, I’m not against the concept of centrism. Indeed I was arguing that it will prove to be more persistent than your analysis suggests- I’m against using the TERM as a reflex insult to charaterise anyone with whom you disagree where its use is far from scientific but a substitute for thought.

    Your idea that centrism will be inevitably blown away by the coming crisis (‘they are transitory and will break their backs on the coming contradictions.’) is a form of schematism with its own history (eg Healy).

    redbedhead “Only fools and dogmatists keep doing the same thing in changed circumstances.”

    Yes. However, when an organisation flits from one position to another without accounting for the change one can forgive a certain scepticism. Changing position in relation to events is necessary but requires some discussion I think.

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  71. Times do change but the political situation in Britain, to the extent that we are considering the possibility of a party to the left of Labour, has been pretty consistent.

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  72. Jason – Don’t assume there was no discussion just because you weren’t invited but there have been, in any case, numerous articles in SW and there is a feature in this issue of SR by Callinicos.

    Liam – The long term crisis of working class representation isn’t new but the ebb and flow of what alignments are possible is a much less constant feature. Regardless of how one assigns blame, etc. in the immediate post Respect split situation it was obviously not a good moment to attempt other left unity projects.

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  73. I would also add that SR also seems to think there is a particular conjuncture at present that puts left unity back on the agenda – at least the front page of your magazine and lead article suggests so.

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  74. redbedhead, I’m sure there have been discussions and I’m in favour very much of the current idea of different left groups working together.

    All I’m saying is you will have to prove in action a consistent approach to joint work to win some people over. There is widespread distrust of left groups – all left groups not just the SWP – and we should all show in practice that we are interested in building working class unity against a common enemy, not only or pirmarily interested in serving our own purposes.

    Of course if we do this then we win more people to socialism and we rebuild the working class movement.

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  75. Some of the discussions have been between Galloway and the SWP.
    Going a long way I’m sure.

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