imageThis piece by, let’s call him “Shankhill Sammy” because he was born on the Shankhill Road, takes issue with the assertion that loyalists in the north of Ireland are a nationality.

Writing on Socialist Unity Andy Newman rehashes an old idea about Ireland, an old idea that always proves to have reactionary conclusions – that the Protestants of the north of Ireland are a nation. The problem is that even this people themselves can never agree on what this nationality is, and Andy doesn’t enlighten us either – a love that not only does not speak its name but doesn’t know it either.

Unable to come to a conclusion on just what their nation is many candidates have been offered but many self-definitions are clearly not definitions of nationhood and some have unwelcome implications such as inevitable minority status in a unified Irish State. These include the loyal Irish, Ulster unionist (but not so as to include all of Ulster), Northern Irish (but that then surely implies inclusion of the Falls Road in Belfast and Crossmaglen?), British-Irish (a term used on some sections of the British left but yet to find an echo where it should belong) or a particularly dopey one – Ulster-Scots (speakers of bad English which unfortunately excludes Protestants with English or Welsh ancestry).

Unfortunately the Socialist Unity  appears to rule out the two most popular candidates of the people concerned, which doesn’t exactly show consistent application of the concept of self-determination to this new-found nationality. ‘British’ appears to be explicitly ruled out. Thus we get the excruciatingly stupid question of ‘whether Unionism requires active support from Britain?’ Over 30,000 British troops in 1972 (compare that number to Iraq or Afghanistan) and a large infusion of money give two clues as to the answer. Unfortunately of course, calling oneself British when most who are rather see you as Irish is not a promising definition and especially if it is a specific type of Britishness, which must be at issue – again undefined.

The other alternative is not to define this nationality as Unionist, since this is a purely political movement which is justified by something supposedly deeper, but to define this nation in the only terms in which the division of the Irish population has been effected – in purely sectarian terms.

This is what makes assertion of a separate Protestant nationality so reactionary, political rights are defined and defended in sectarian terms. No wonder Andy asserts that he is ‘ not offering any conclusions here’ although he has just offered up one almighty reactionary one; ‘I have neither the knowledge nor a crystal ball’ he says. At last we agree – and on two things as well!

Andy states that ‘it is hard to see an obvious mechanism in the Irish context where that common class interest can unite the nationalist and unionist working classes in a common political approach to resolving the question of Irish partition.’ The missing mechanism of course is the socialist unity of the Irish working class. How come he missed it?

This unity inevitably involves opposition to all forms of sectarianism and support for democratic demands such as an end of partition. And here we come back to the much maligned Lenin who understood that the national question was all about democracy. Giving the Irish Protestants something they don’t even want – independent nationhood – is undemocratic and reactionary. These are the conclusions Andy doesn’t realise he has come to.

34 responses to “A Belfast Protestant writes…”

  1. “which doesn’t exactly show consistent application of the concept of self-determination to this new-found nationality”

    Ah you see, but even mentioning the concept of self-determination makes you a whinging Trot. Apparently.

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  2. How about a thread on the new history of the Officials/Workers Party? I was struck after reading it that the very wierd stalinism espoused by sections of that organisation closely resembled the kind of language Andy uses about much of the far left in Britain. On the other hand I was also struck by the way in which the tradition of militarism, and the elitism associated with it, seemed to over-ride everything even when ostensibly the organisation was moving away from such things. But then as a Swoppie I would think that.

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  3. I don’t know enough about them. Splintered is much more familiar with them personally and politically and he’s best placed to run a thread like that.

    Their armed wing had the reputation of racketeering and “fundraising” but I’m sure this was just mud slung by disappointed rivals.

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  4. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    The latest instalment in the history of the Sticks is in the pipeline right now.

    Of course, the trouble with the concept of the Prod nation is that it’s never demanded nationhood, its core demand has always been to remain a colony. Just because unionism is deep rooted doesn’t mean it isn’t reactionary. See also Zionism.

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  5. Well its group B you should be looking out for Liam.

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  6. I think one of Mr. Newman’s problems is that he has fallen in with the trend in mainstream political thought since the break-up of the Soviet Union to see nationalism as a necessary part of identity. Just as to define oneself as white [defining oneself, not answering a census or survey question where such an identification is assumed] is generally to make a racist point, so to claim a group identity as a nation (not just to value the culture of the community) for Northern Ireland Protestants is simply to accept sectarianism as the basis for political identity.

    Which I think those who have commented here would agree with. I’m not sure the logic of splintered’s point stand up, if the Prods had demanded nationhood would they then be a nation?

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  7. Much of Andy’s output on this does have more then a passing resemblence to standard academic fare of a particular kind, dwelling on disapointed Marxists etc. However leaving this aside (who is going to cry for the figure of the poor misunderstood Marxist) its also true that what he writes leaves out of account real fractures and contradictions in nationalist ideology. So for example, from what little I know of Unionist identity (I’m actually not frightened by the term identity, I just don’t think its what makes the world go round) its fractures revolve around resentment towards whats sometimes called “fur-coat unionism” as opposed to the interests and aspirations of working class unionists. That the crisis of an ideology often contains class tensions is not a surprise. But it would be a mistake to conclude that the existence of these class tensions means that one or other arm of this fracture is neccessarily progressive.

    This seems to have been a mistake made by the sticks who very quickly saw loyalist paramilitaries as representives of a possibly working class and therefore progressive unionism. They were right to recognise these tensions but wrong to draw those conclusions. This is also true of other reactionary movements (in Bombay the example I’m most familiar with, the existence of parochialist sons of the soil movements since the mid-1950s, later linked to Hindu Nationalism, expressed similarly complicated fractures but were not therefore progressive).

    When there is a crisis of dominant ideologies, a crisis which does not simply revolve around intellectuals noticing that certain identities are incoherent (which such identities are not, at least formally?) but which are producing incoherences noticable to those for whom these ideologies are a lived relation, its the duty of socialists to point beyond these ideologies, and not to try and make the incoherences coherent. Its a very dangerous game to, as Andy seems to suggest, on occassions as diverse as the anti-fascist movement, questions about English identity, and now Unionism in Northern Ireland, dress up these contradictions in an imaginary history of the ‘national popular’, (forgetting that much of Gramsci’s work revolved around a critique rather then a celebration of what was percieved of the same in Italy, or rather an enquiry into its absence, which he linked to the failure of the Italian bourgoisie. I have yet to find anywhere in his writings the suggestion that Communists should try and cook one up by selectively massaging Italy’s actual history, whose mythologies and failures Gramsci is utterly ruthless about, something the right in Italy still find unforgiveable, despite Eurocommunist attempts to make him a palatable patriot).

    Its why I mentioned that book on the history of one would-be left wing Republican current whose politics began not entirely differently. Its a salutory tale. And one of the great tragedies of its legacy is the ease with which any attempt to develop a class-based critique of establishment politics in that part of the world can easily be dismissed as “Sticky”. All this in combination with the fervently Stalinist rhetoric of the stickies themselves which at points resembles Andy’s excoriation of anyone moderately to the left of him, must create a hellishly complicated ideological terrain for leftists of various bents, who I would imagine need Andy’s hand-me down British Road To Socialism missives like a hole in the head.

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  8. So I would imagine, one difficulty in the way of reconstructing ‘the national popular’ in relationship to unionism, would be that those figures who were protastants who played a progressive role in different historical periods tended to be viewed as traitors by the dominant tradition, and tended not to see themselves as unionists. Now you can either simply ‘make shit up’ in the face of this, or you can recognise the unpalatable reality (and it is unpalatable and difficult to deal with, given that appeals to wolftones religious identity are not likely to be enourmously effective, some of the effect being dampened by what actually happened to the tradition he is seen as founding, something which ideological opposite numbers to Andy have equal difficulty in recognising).

    I don’t think its possible to engage in serious ideological work on these questions (as opposed to the neccessary and more hum-drum work of trying to bridge the sectarian divide around more practical and limited activities) by trying to pretend that sectarianism can be overcome by re-writing a more progressive nationalist history (whether two nations or one). Whats required is some kind of socialist history or what Gramsci called a subaltern history (which does not eschew discussion of nationalist ideologies and political currents which have influenced those who in the end, as Gramsci put it, were unable to play a ‘directive role’, precisely because they were so influenced and did not have hegenomy), recognising the enourmous difficulties of writing such a history, difficulties only surpassed by the task of achieving something practical in relationship to them.

    Anything else, it seems to me, is a kind of irresponsible playing with matches in a situation where the fuel of sectarianism is still combustible.

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  9. And in the end it all boils down to not thinking that the marginalisation of socialism can be resolved by pretending to represent the national will. We don’t. And we won’t simply by mouthing a different and more amenable rhetoric.

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  10. The history of The WP is indeed a salutory tale John. But the lessons to be drawn are different than those you suggest. Firstly the focus of your discussion is on the north. The north was never the central focus for the Republican Movement under Goulding nor when it transformed itself into The Workers’ Party. The political project was about transforming the entire island – firstly by democratising and secularising it, through agitation for civil, political, social and economic rights north and south, all the while building a strong socialist voice.

    The only way to do this was to create an active and campaigning party that stood first and last for principled socialist politics, with influence in the economic, political and cultural life of the people. This project enjoyed a great deal of success in the south of Ireland, especially Dublin. The WP led the way in criticising the myths of the rotten Catholic nationalism that permeated society and government not from the bourgeois liberal perspective of the likes of Conor Cruise O’Brien, but from a clear and unashamed socialist perspective. Whereas other parties advocated emigration and begging for foreign investment, The WP posited plans to use the power of the state to modernise and transform the Irish economy and society. The success in building in this left-wing party in communities, in trade unions, and in elections is unparalleled in Irish history.

    The WP terrified the establishment in the Irish Republic. It was The WP that exposed the corruption in planning and the beef industry that brought down a government; according to Fergus Finlay, an adivsor to the former Irish Labour leader Dick Spring, the creation of SIPTU by a merger came about to try and curtail the influence of The WP in the unions; Fianna Fáil was panicked at the loss of working class support to The WP. Unfortunately much of this progress was squandered by treachery by opportunists and those who abandoned their principles in the wake of the world-historical event that was the fall of the USSR.

    It is true that The WP never enjoyed the same success in the north. But it is also true that it was never its intention to get involved in a competition with the SDLP or the Provos for the leadership of tribal nationalism. The INLA tried that, and look how they turned out. Instead, The WP stuck to republican and socialist principles of building anti-sectarian workers’ unity. Despite what some would have you believe, The WP has never been under any illusions about the nature of unionism. However, the core battle during the Troubles was to see the violence stopped and to fight sectarianism, while encouraging whatever leftist trends emerged. Give me a unionist who believes in Clause 4, integrated education and an end to the 11 Plus over a right-wing nationalist who supports religious education, academic selection any day of the week.

    The battle to transform the politics of NI and achieve Irish unity will be long and slow. But it must be done peacefully. And without peace there can be little space for progressive politics. Something The WP worked out long ago, and some others have still to learn.

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  11. Splinty:

    Of course, the trouble with the concept of the Prod nation is that it’s never demanded nationhood, its core demand has always been to remain a colony. Just because unionism is deep rooted doesn’t mean it isn’t reactionary.

    I laughed out loud at this though:

    “The missing mechanism of course is the socialist unity of the Irish working class”

    godd luck with that mate.

    Well just becasue it is reactionary doesn’t mean they aren’t a nation, or a proto-nation is you prefer.

    It is a mistake to see Ireland only as a colony, becasue this ignores the dual nature, that the Protestant middle classes were also fully incorportated into the British imperial metropole, in a way that creole nations like the Canadians, Australians or “white” South Africans never could be.

    Indeed as Benedict Anderson has argued it was creole nations in the Americas who created the political ideology of modern national states, with Venezuela and the USA having successful creole revolutions.

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  12. oh – that all got muddle up somehow, it shoud have read like this:

    Splinty:

    Of course, the trouble with the concept of the Prod nation is that it’s never demanded nationhood, its core demand has always been to remain a colony. Just because unionism is deep rooted doesn’t mean it isn’t reactionary.

    Well just becasue it is reactionary doesn’t mean they aren’t a nation, or a proto-nation is you prefer.

    It is a mistake to see Ireland only as a colony, becasue this ignores the dual nature, that the Protestant middle classes were also fully incorportated into the British imperial metropole, in a way that creole nations like the Canadians, Australians or “white” South Africans never could be.

    Indeed as Benedict Anderson has argued it was creole nations in the Americas who created the political ideology of modern national states, with Venezuela and the USA having successful creole revolutions.

    I laughed out loud at this though:

    “The missing mechanism of course is the socialist unity of the Irish working class”

    good luck with that mate. How are you getting on with that?

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  13. Incidently, a problem with Splinty’s reservetion that the unionist majority in the six counties cannot be a nation because they have not demanded nationhood, is that it has been fundamental to their interests to be incorporated into the multi-textured british identity and nation state.

    But “britishness” is overlaid with Englishness, Scottishness and Welshness, and Britishness is also a historcaly contingent development based upon external projection of imperial power.

    In a sense, Irish Unionism is Britishness writ large, chauvinist, colonialist, monarchist, protestant; but that form of Britishness is diminishing in britain ( the compnents exist but very few peole bake that particular cake any more) , and the process of devolution means that this Britishness may no longer be available for Ulster unionists to align with – can you meaningfully have the Britishness without Scotland being part of it?

    So it is not true that the unionists don’t have a name for their nation, they call themselves british. But it is a form of Britishness that is unique to them.

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  14. Actually Garibaldi my main objection to what became the WP was how pretty sound principles (as outlined by yourself) got twisted into something else entirely. Of course I only have the much discussed “Lost Revolution” to go on (I also read Patterson’s illusion book, actually recommended to SWP members when it came out, which I thought was good). Whilst the general principles you outline are fine, I found the practical conclusions drawn (a refusal of any solidarity at all with what was a struggle of those suffering national oppression, even if led by a right wing breakaway from the IRA, combined with a self-defeating sectarianism to anyone who didn’t share this perspective amongst other things), including the rather demented Stalinism and elitism of the organisation as described in that book, mean that a sound set of principles got an undeserved pasting making it difficult for those who want to move foward on the basis of those principles. The belief that the existing state was the only basis for dealing with sectarianism and ‘terrorism’ meant that collusion with it in the context of the war in the north was justified, and all this was combined with different problems associated with similar beliefs in the south. But I recognise that this was a real current which deserves more serious treatment then it has otherwise recieved. For my money the problems were associated with a top-down approach to politics ultimately rooted in the deeper history of the organisation in physical force Republicanism. Its this that continued to distort these principles as far as I can see, organisationally and politically.

    As to Andy Newman’s abstract juggling with the term “British” its hard to know what practical conclusions anyone is supposed to draw from these excercises…

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  15. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Well, there’s self-evidently a Hebrew-speaking Israeli nation, but that doesn’t mean Zionism isn’t reactionary.

    And because johng demanded it, the latest TLR instalment is now up.

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  16. John,

    It wasn’t a belief that the existing state was the only means of defeating sectarianism. The only way to defeat sectarianism is by combatting it within communities, by challenging the tribal assumptions of virtually every political party in NI, and by promoting a sense of common interest and unity among the working people of NI.

    While the nationalist groups talk about this, they made no efforts to do so. The WP did and does. Now sometimes, that has meant getting chased out of a loyalist estate. Other times it has meant getting hundreds of votes from places like the Shankill Road. Equally, it can mean when handing out leaflets calling for the unity of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter being told to fuck off to the nearby protestant town by people putting up supposedly republican election posters by people who clearly have never heard the most famous phrase in the history of Irish republicanism.

    However, the state is the most powerful agency in our society. Its laws can be turned to progressive purposes. And a bill of rights and making sectarianism a hate crime would be a progressive move. Anti-discrimination laws have had a profound effect on NI, although many problems remain.

    As for not supporting the campaigns of the nationalist paramilitaries. Firstly, the IRA (Official) quite rightly stopped its campaign because violence – no matter what its intention – was having the effect of increasing sectarianism. Throw in the fact that groups like the Provisionals, the INLA and the IPLO carried out hundreds of sectarian murders of ordinary working people, and no socialist should ever have given them any support, critical or otherwise. That is not to say that there was not a place for challenging state actions. Hence The WP producing plans for police reform very early on, calling for the proper civilian oversight of policing and policing in accordance with civil rights.

    Just quickly on the elitism and top down thing. That’s not my experience. Nor is it the experience of World By Storm, who left in 1992. The perception is that there was this top down thing. It’s an accusation hurled overwhelmingly by people who found that the membership did not support whatever hobby horse they were seeking to ride, and this provided a convenient excuse.

    As for why there is a small left in NI. Unfortunately the reasons for that run a whole lot deeper than whatever failings The WP may have had. It’s the reactionary nature of virtually the entire society. The south is not much better.

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  17. Supporters of the separate Norn Iron Protestant identity, at least that minority who don’t believe that the world was created in a week, will have been heartened by today’s edition of the indispensable radio programme and podcast In Our Time.

    “Around six hundred million years ago, the island that we now call Britain was in two parts, far to the south of the Equator. Scotland – and north-western Ireland – were part of a continent (Laurentia) that also included what is now North America. To the south-east, near the Antarctic Circle, meanwhile, you would have found Southern Ireland, England and Wales. They formed a mini-continent (Avalonia) with what is now Newfoundland.”

    Yes even then north and south were destined to be separated.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime.shtml

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  18. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Christ on a bike! Has anyone told Nelson McCausland? Then again, continental drift might not go down well with the young earth creationists in the DUP.

    Incidentally, for all things Ulster Scots, Nelson’s new blog is worth a look.

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  19. Hey Garibalidi, as I said, I can only go by the information contained in the book I read, and, if I’m honest, the kind of hunches I bought to the book (we all do this). I’m completely open to a genuine discussion about these issues, but I’m not entirely convinced by your response, given what I’ve just read. But perhaps splintered could give you a guest post to outline your reaction to the book. It would actually be genuinely educational.

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  20. Much of this debate seems to illustrate a recent speculation by splintered that much of English leftism ( and Irish sub offices) has very little to do with Marxist categories. The most fundamental of these is that being determines consciousness. The material base of unionism is the British occupation and their client status within that.

    The sort of consciousness that the northern unionist displays could be seen in colonies all over the world where Britain separated out groups with marginal privilege. Discussing an demand that Northern Prods have never made tells us more about leftists than it does about Prods.

    It is based on the liberal idea of the noble savage. Workers are inherently progressive. We can make allowances for a few misguided brethern in the BNP but a mass phenomenon of reaction makes us shy away.

    The related phenomenon of sectarianism is treated in the same way. The WP always acted as if sectarianism was some sort of moral illness that (and this was the important bit) affected all workers equally. The whole structure of a state apparatus dedicated to sectarianism and granting immunity to loyalism was ignored – much handier to identify Provo fascism, and before that civil rights ultraleftism) as the big problem!

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  21. Hi John,

    I’m more than happy to talk about this. As for my reactions. We can spare SS the pollution off his fine blog. I wrote a reaction to the book here

    The Lost Revolution: Some Brief Thoughts

    The same piece is also at my own blog (you can find it by clicking the ‘history’ category). There’s some other stuff there about recent WP activity too, links to the Seán Garland campaign etc.

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  22. Just to clarify Garibalidy’s comment is a reply to Johng. The other John’s comment was being held in moderation.

    Did anyone else notice the irony in Andy’s comment ““The missing mechanism of course is the socialist unity of the Irish working class”
    good luck with that mate. How are you getting on with that?”

    What’s his site called again.

    And here is something I left on SUN a while ago.

    If you look at what the Good Friday Agreement actually does it’s to consolidate politics in the north into two religious blocs. That’s what parity of esteem is all about and it ends up with a huge grantocracy of Republicans and loyalist gangsters who make a role for themselves acting as conduits for British government cash. It has had a hugely corrupting effect on Sinn Fein but because they are not willing to describe it as a victory for British imperialism they go along with it. That creates the political space for those who advocate a return to armed struggle and their attribution of the defeat to corruption rather than politics.

    Returning to the unionist national identity. Its only possible basis, in the event of a British withdrawal, is religion. The original theorists of this idea understood that it required pogroms and forced removal of Catholics from the areas which had a Protestant majority and some were willing to lose Derry, Armagh and Tryone. That was at a time when the north still had an industrial base and the economy was not quite so dependent on a very large public sector. What this means now is that any attempt to give this “nation” a state would require a Milosevic (though there would be no lack of contenders)and it would be an economic basket case.

    If you look closely at the unionist cultural identity its sole focus is the victory of Protestantism in Ireland, a process which required the military defeat and expropriation of the Catholic peasantry. Orangefest as we must learn to call it does more than commemorate an old battle. It’s a month long reminder of who controls the streets and who controls the state. By contrast attempts to identify a culture in the north of Ireland radically distinct from mainstream Irish art, literature or modern music just don’t work.

    No one serious could describe a group which can traces its roots back to the 17th century as a “British colon”. What is beyond dispute is that without the active support of British imperialism in maintaining the northern state there would be no viable future for a re-partioned north.

    Republicanism has dominated anti-imperialist politics in Ireland for almost a century and the Good Friday Agreement demonstrates that it is unable to offer a solution to the national question which is in any way different from that of the SDLP or Fianna Fail. Splintered is on the money when he asserts that none of the theories put forward by the Irish left have worked either. I think one reason for that is that the high points of the national movement in Irealnd were always linked to developments in the rest of the world e.g 1968, 1917, and even 1789. It will be a revolutionary wave in Europe that probably resolves the national question in Ireland.

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  23. Thanks for that Liam. In regards to John (not Johng), I’d of course agree with what he’s saying about things having a material basis. Having said that, ideas matter. Otherwise we wouldn’t still be waiting for socialism. Regarding the case of sectarianism in NI. The sad fact of life is that sectarianism is a cancer that infects the whole of society in NI, including workers. Now we can make the argument that loyalists are more sectarian, but even if that is so, it doesn’t change the fact that sectarianism is a two-way street, that needs to be tackled head on no matter where it is found.

    Sectarianism among those who reject the union also has its material basis. It wasn’t just the industrialists who backed the UUP who had a vested interest in keeping the working class divided along religious lines. There were and are plenty of Catholic business people, politicians, and of course the Catholic church and its education system that seek to keep class consciousness low among workers who oppose the union. It’s not just Devalera who thought that labour must wait. The whole of Irish nationalism has been based on it. Meanwhile the Catholic professionals,, pub owners, shopowners etc have been doing very nicely, thank you very much. It’s no accident that the cases of collusion that have raised the greatest outcry and involved members of the middle classes while the deaths of working class people are basically forgotten about.

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  24. Mark Victorystooge Avatar
    Mark Victorystooge

    “And in the end it all boils down to not thinking that the marginalisation of socialism can be resolved by pretending to represent the national will. We don’t. And we won’t simply by mouthing a different and more amenable rhetoric.”

    I remember being told by the SWP in the 1990s that there had never been a better time to be a socialist. Has there been a reassessment?

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  25. Well I don’t know which SWP member you were talking to, but my guess is it was a response to the suggestion that the collapse of the Berlin wall was a defeat for socialism or some such. On that we would disagree.

    On Garibaldi’s comment on “Labour must wait” etc, my difficulty is that I know of no nationalism which is not organised implicitly around this assumption, even nationalisms which adopt a left colouration. My problem is that the basis for supporting struggles against national oppression by socialists always proceeded despite and not because of the politics of nationalism. At points in the Lost Revolution, despite the absence of a commentry or analytical framework (I’ve read your review and have learnt from it and the discussions underneath and on Splintered Sunrise) the authors point to the way in which the anti-provo argument started at points to be a bit one-eyed: ignoring deaths at the hands of security forces, or loyalist murder gangs etc as part of the general argument against the provos. This was in the early 1980s and particularly centred around the polemics around the H block campaign.

    I’ll always remember Pat Stack commenting on controversies around left and right splits in Republicanism and remarking that if socialists are going to support a bunch of people with guns they might as well support the bigger bunch. This was not provophilia quite the reverse. It actually pointed to the distinction between socialists and those who were essentially nationalists and problems associated with armed struggle, which included lurches into sectarianism, internecine warfare etc.

    Thats why Patterson’s book could be recommended to SWP members. However one thing the book has made me think about is how inevitable the armed struggle actually was. I guess these kinds of re-assessments are inevitable in the current context. But I was struck in the book by what seemed a curious disconnect between the political and military narrative. You’d find yourself nodding along to this or that piece of political argument, and suddenly people were shooting each other. The difficulty of understanding how the one led to the other for the reader suggested to me that armed struggle had its own logic quite aside from political program.

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  26. John G,

    The national liberation struggles in places like Angola and Vietnam were not fought on the basis of labour must wait. And as you’ll know, I don’t believe NI is a case of straightforward national oppression. In my view it is a case of a divided people, and the question is how best to solve that division. The reality is also that the people of Ireland themselves have consistently viewed the question in those terms throughout the Troubles. This is why it’s important to remember that the SDLP was the biggest non-unionist voice in the north during the Troubles, while opinion in the south was almost 100% against violence, at least after the early years.

    My fundamental starting point is simple – workers unite. Any programme that does not take that into account, or any actions that deepen division rather than promote it is objectively working in favour of reaction. Now, had there been a realistic chance that violence could have quickly secured a united Ireland, there might have been a case to be made that the divisions it caused were worth it. But this wasn’t the case, and clearly was not so.

    As I’ve pointed out, I think that the book at times fails to get across what The WP was saying and doing in the north regarding the type of issues you raise. As you probably read me saying elsewhere, you only have to look at WP statements and publications in the north to see that all murders by loyalists were condemned. To suggest otherwise is not true. At the same time, I pointed out that in years where there might be around 100 deaths, and loyalists were responsible for say 5, then naturally the flow of condemnation will be tilted in one direction. Similarly, loyalists weren’t claiming the mantle of progressive politics, and so there was no ideological struggle to be waged with them for the ownership of certain ideas and terms. That’s not to say that southern WP representatives did not sometimes fail to elucidate what was being said in the north properly.

    Just quickly on the H Blocks. The Union of Students in Ireland during the huger strikes had WP members as presidents, and was widely seen as being under its control. Its position was ten rights for all prisoners rather than 5 rights for some.

    I think your remark about military action having a logic of its own does hit the nail on the head. It’s one of the reasons that The WP abandoned military action. You get dragged into doing things you shouldn’t all too easily, and political work suffers.

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  27. What nationality are the protestants, unionists, loyalists in the north of Ireland?

    Irish. But as long as the British state privileges them they will remain politically British. If, in the course of time the Catholic, republican, nationalist communities gain equal rights within the Northern Ireland `state’ then there is a good chance that they too will prefer to remain under the British umbrella. Chances are however that the now bankrupt British state will start to pull the plug on its commitments to both communities. Under such circumstances northern protestants would be best served by demanding a united, secular, socialist Ireland rather than trying to carve out a paranoid ahistorical statelet of their own with all the vile bloodshed that would entail.

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  28. On Vietnam and Angola I’m a bit unsure about that, but I would’nt expect to resolve that particular argument here. But just on the book, on your last point about armed struggle and its logic, the descriptions of B group and its operations and how long they went on for raised questions for me about this. The use of the old OIRA for fund raising until very late in the day does’nt seem on reading to have marked a complete break with paramilitary politics and does seem to have degenerated into the same kind of criminality one saw in other groups. The logic of ‘not being intimidated’ by the provos was understandable enough, but in practice I’m not sure that the same logic the provos could rightly be excoriated for was’nt in operation (albeit with sectarian attacks on protestants not taking place). To level with you, some of this to an outsider reading a book just seemed sinister and almost more disturbing as there didn’t seem any political rationale for it (a sense heightened by the fact that members were instructed to pretend they didn’t exist whilst many members of the WP didn’t know they existed). There was the very wierd record of the discussion about fund raising in which it seems to have been taken for granted that these kinds of operation were neccessary. Now in Tsarist Russia or other kinds of dictatorship where open organisation is impossible this can be justified. But if one is rejecting mythologies in the Irish context, how can this have been seen as a normal way to behave for those building a broadbased working class party contesting in elections?

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  29. I take your point about the context of arguments though. On the prisoners rights thing, again though, I understand the argument about all prisoners being political and the ways in which this can be justified, but I just do feel uncomfortable with counterposing this to the demands for political status in the context of the time.

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  30. …and one of the interesting things about the book is that it does reveal that at various points many members expressed doubts about the balence of these arguments.

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  31. Nelson’s new blog

    Ulster-Scots Night in City Hall
    As part of the programme of events to mark the reopening of the City Hall in Belfast, the Ulster-Scots Community Network organised a special evening in the Great Hall. The programme included the Ballycoan Pipe Band, Risin Stour, the Bright Lights Highland Dancers and the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society. Gareth Hunter gave a stort talk on W F Marshall, the Bard of Tyrone, and read several of his wonderful poems. There was a full house and the evening ended with some good old fashioned kailye dancing.

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  32. I don’t think I’ve seen a blog where the debate is settled so quickly. Andy is accused of peddling a position which is reactionary – and his reply is to plead gulity!

    He says the Protestants of the north of Ireland are British. Well lets run with the Protestants as British for the sake of argument. although this has fundamental problems.

    This would make them a national minority, one supported by imperialism to frustrate the national majority, and having a long and unhappy history of sectarianism and oppression. One with a political programme to be defeated.

    So what if this nation is reactionary says Andy!

    It is more than a colony he says. MORE than a colony!!! So it IS a colony?

    Is Andy now saying he supports national causes even if they are reactionary? Is he pro-colonial?

    If he is denying either of these then just what are the political imperatives of defending the ‘national’ rights of the Irish Protestants? Or is all this stuff really just intellectual masturbation with no political programme deriving from it?

    Marxists in Ireland will take his good luck and continue to fight for the socialist unity of the Irish working class: that is the whole Irish working class – Protestant and Catholic/North and South – and oppose the division Andy wishes to legitimise.

    Andy asks how we are getting on with this. Well, not too good at the moment if truth be told. We have suffered reversal after reversal over the past period and our forces are very small. We need all the help we can get.. But we won’t expect it from those who have crossed the line, the class line. We won’t be expecting it from Andy.

    I’d rather be part of the solution no matterr how small than part of the problem no matter how big.

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  33. Johng,

    I’d disagree with the version presented in the book about “Group B”. As far as I’m concerned the Movement had been transformed into a party by the late 70s. Several groups of people who abandoned socialist struggle had a vested interest in presenting that story. But, even as it stands in the book, I don’t think the authors are presenting the thing as apolitical or criminal. Rather I think they present it as in the service of and to enable the political.

    As for people disagreeing with party policy. I think that’s true that people did, and were able to voice their dissent. Which goes back to the earlier point about the supposedly top-down culture.

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  34. What nationality are the protestants, unionists, loyalists in the north of Ireland?
    Whatever’s on their passports.

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