Some of the more senior members of the Mac Uaid clan used to mortify their flesh by going on pilgrimage to Lough Derg. It involves fasting, getting by on black tea and dry bread, walking barefoot, and keeping continuously awake for a period of 24 hours. My occasional trips to Birmingham serve the same purpose without improving my chances in the hereafter.

Yesterday’s Respect conference took place in Sparkbrook, the constituency which Salma Yaqoob has a strong chance of winning in next year’s election. There were about two hundred delegates with a pretty good geographical spread from Southend, Dorset and Liverpool as well as the Birmingham and London redoubts. It’s worth mentioning that the conference voted to drop the “Unity Coalition” tag and adopt the new name The Respect Party.

The first part of the conference was marked by a vigorous and mature debate over a couple of major strategic issues. Salma opened the morning session which was themed around “one society, many cultures”. She explained how she had got into politics as a result of the wave of anti-Muslim prejudice after September 11. She rightly attributed the rise of the BNP to the pro-war, pro-capital politics of the three major parties. As if it were necessary she reaffirmed that she was opposed to the attacks on New York and London, as well as any attacks on innocent people. In a backhanded tribute to her local profile someone has taken the trouble to produce a glossy leaflet which has been posted to anyone with a white sounding name on the local electoral register which aims to put her and Respect in the same camp as the demonstrators who protested in Luton at the troops’ homecoming parade. You don’t do a job like that unless you are seriously worried she’s going to win the seat. Accusing Gordon Brown in his recent speech on immigration of pandering to racism she countered that the best way to oppose racism is to tackle it head on and went on to call for investment in housing, infrastructure and and working class people to cut racism at its root.

Racism and the rise of the far right dominated the discussion that followed. One speaker said that in his industry jobs were being taken and wages driven down  by skilled workers from Eastern Europe.  This is a real concern in sections of the working class and Salma struck the perfect note in acknowledging his concerns by describing the collapse of the manufacturing sector, Labour’s reliance on the City and trickle down theory to create jobs and the failure of union leaders to organise workers to defend their conditions.

Much of the rest of the discussion was over the way to deal with the rise of the far right. On the general principle that a new party is needed for working people there was no dissent expressed. On the issue of whether or not to call for state bans there was disagreement, broadly speaking along the lines that have already been discussed at length on this site and elsewhere.  Summarising the debate Salma said “we do not fetishise tactics. At times it’s right to take to the streets.” Some of us might quibble with the weight that she attached to complimentary statements from senior police officers and backing from the Lib Dems. However a point that some lose sight of in this discussion is that Respect’s leadership makes no claims to be revolutionary Marxist and that a relatively new organisation is debating its tactics against the far right in a developing situation.

In victory, magnanimity. Not

The second section was on the theme “resisting the cuts agenda” and had motions on electoral strategy, the crisis, the politics of our election campaign, electoral alliances and the People’s Charter. This was introduced by George Galloway. Revisiting some of the theme’s from the first session he insisted that he was standing only as a Respect candidate and not as part of any alliance with minor parties, specifically the Communist Party and the Socialist Party. Asked a direct question as to who Respect supporters should vote for if there is no Respect candidate he said that they should vote Labour, though he did make several exceptions including Caroline Lucas, Peter Tatchell, Dave Nellist and candidates standing against particularly venal ministers like Geoff Hoon, adding that assigning degrees of venality to Labour ministers is no easy thing. The criteria were that they had to have a chance of winning; be credible or opposing one of a small band of Labour ministers. His reasoning was that a Labour government, no matter how bad, is more favourable to working class people than any Tory regime. He also argued that when Respect wins three seats in Westminster next year that it will become the magnet for all those seeking an alternative to Labour and, for this reason, has no need of alliances with the left.

My take on this is that a building strategy based solely on winning elections is as flawed as a financial strategy which relies solely on being lucky at the bookmakers. Salma had already indicated the lengths to which her opponents are willing to go to deprive her of  the seat and there is already a well known history of electoral dodgy dealings in Birmingham. Then there’s the small fact that elections are very unpredictable. Effectively this approach requires achieving a set of victories no small party has ever managed before and then assuming that everyone else will want to join it. Or, more precisely, everyone else who is not already on the organised left. A recurring theme in George Galloway’s contributions was use of the phrases “left group”, “Trotskyist” and “far left” as terms of abuse in much the same way you might call someone a “Bon Jovi fan” or a “Tory”.

A vote to take an emergency motion on supporting the child of No2EU was defeated by a margin of just over two to one. The rest of the resolutions were accepted. As in the morning session the debate had been frank but conducted with maturity and without rancour. Then, in a interesting new procedural innovation, George Galloway replied to the debate after the vote had been taken.

One would have hoped that he’d have remembered Churchill’s maxim “in victory, magnanimity”. Instead he decided to give the small group of child of No2EU supporters the same treatment that Socialist Resistance had received from him, John Rees and Lindsey German at the 2005 conference or Neil Kinnock doled out to Militant. It was ugly though at least this time there was not a howling mob ready for a lynching. He asserted than “No2EU had objectively helped Nick Griffin get elected by standing against the Green Party’s Peter Cranie. The good bit was that he shares a healthy distrust of the progressive nature of prison officers as a mass. On the negative side any of the valid criticisms he did make of child of No2EU, including its lack union support, the certainty of its small vote etc were lost in a flurry of contempt for the organised left and the strong sense that a group of the leadership was determined to drive out two newly elected members of the national council and a small number of members in Southwark. It poisoned the rest of the day.

The international debate was squeezed by pressure of time and was followed by some constitutional housekeeping.

On reflection the decision to try to pulverise the supporters of the new coalition was the worst possible choice a leadership could have made. It sent a message that dissenting political views are not something to be given space and time to show that they
are right or wrong. Instead they are something to be ridiculed and isolated. Quite how these methods will attract people looking for a home outside the Labour Party  is something that is not apparent.

208 responses to “Respect conference”

  1. What do you expect – Galloway hates Trots more than he hates NL. If they’d let him in he would have been back in the Labour Party a while back.

    It seems to me that there is a clear division between those who hold to class politics (Neil Williams, Nick Wrack) and those who don’t (Galloway, Yaqoob). The Green Party is not a working class party in iny sense of the word, it’s a petit bourgeois radical environmental pressure group that dusts of its other policies at elections. The fact that Respect prefers to work with them rather than the sneeringly dismissed far left speaks volumes. Genuine socialists in Respect will get a damned sight better response and comradely respect at gatherings of other organisations intent on trying to build a class based alternative to NL. Yesterday clearly shows the way the Respect wind is blowing. Time to join us comrades.

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  2. This rather confirms those of us who thought that Respect was always a vehicle for Gorgeous, Salma and their mates to get elected rather than the embryo of a working class left alternative.
    Judging from Ger Francis intolerant remarks on SU about the leadership pushing through their victorious agenda it appears this is only the beginning of trouble for the minority. My question would be why bother?
    They may be a majority of Respect, but they represent nothing to little on the ground. Even if George and Salma were to be elected (very unlikely) what would that mean?
    George has hardly set the world alight over the last five years. Salma has demonstrated her liberal rightism vividly over the last months in her opposition to militant anti-fascism.
    Not only are these people intolerant and undemocratic, but they’ve got right wing liberal politics too. What are you fighting for?
    Give it up as a bad job is my idea.

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  3. Perhaps if Liam had been at the NC where Nick Wrack did his level best to get us to stand a candidate against the Greens in the West Midlands during the Euros, or the ones distorted by fantasy politics, he might be more sympathetic to our resolve to ‘pulverise’ a stand of ultra-leftism that equates Labour and the Tories and is hostile about working with the Greens while all the time talking about ‘unity’.

    Liam is a bit unfair to George about ‘trot bashing’. He omits reference to his very positive comments about Alan T.

    ‘My take on this is that a building strategy based solely on winning elections is as flawed’.

    What alternative do you propose if we are serious about wanting to put a marker down for a radical left electoral alternative?

    On bill’s advise to his fellow travellers: ‘My question would be why bother?’

    Indeed.

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  4. “The good bit was that he shares a healthy distrust of the progressive nature of prison officers as a mass.”

    The question is, are we better of with the Prison Officer’s in a union, or not?
    Besides which, most people quite like a screw.

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  5. …(sorry for the misplaced apostrophe above.)
    btw. sonofno2EU has less letters than childofNo2EU, or daughterofNo2EU.
    Let alone adoptedorphanofNo2EU.

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  6. Ger,

    We should all agree that what we need is a radical left alternative to New Labour. This includes a challenge in the electoral field (where Respect has done well), but also in the workplaces, campaigns and communities (where Respect is weaker than some others on the left). To build Respect as a national left party, we have to be relevant in the everyday lives of working-class people and not just be an electoral alternative.

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  7. I don’t see any contradiction Fred. Elections are extremely difficult to win and impossible to do so without being rooted in communities, and being relevant ‘in the everyday lives of working-class people’. Respect is more thoroughly rooted in working class communities, and the poorest ones at that, than any other left of Labour organistion. As is its membership.

    What we are not in a position to do is to substitute for weak union organization or the absence of campaigns.

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  8. For the record, as a Green Party member who’s done a fair amount of statistical analysis on the Euro elections, I’m absolutely convinced that No2EU did not let Griffin in by depriving Peter Cranie of the seat.

    Much as I would like to scape goat someone for such a distressing result there is no evidence to say that No2EU attracted a significant number of ‘Green votes’. Not even the 0.3% extra votes we needed.

    The accusations are understandable, but don’t have any basis in the evidence.

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  9. There were about two hundred delegates
    Were they delegates, or like last time, every member who could attend?

    On reflection the decision to try to pulverise the supporters of the new coalition was the worst possible choice a leadership could have made. It sent a message that dissenting political views are not something to be given space and time to show that they are right or wrong. Instead they are something to be ridiculed and isolated.
    I told you so.

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  10. Judging by recent developments in the SWP you’re in no position to preach.

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  11. Ger Francis:

    “Perhaps if Liam had been at the NC where Nick Wrack did his level best to get us to stand a candidate against the Greens in the West Midlands during the Euros, or the ones distorted by fantasy politics, he might be more sympathetic to our resolve to ‘pulverise’ a stand of ultra-leftism that equates Labour and the Tories and is hostile about working with the Greens while all the time talking about ‘unity’.”

    Funny, I was at the meeting concerned, and I don’t remember Nick proposing that Respect stand a candidate in the Euro Elections anywhere in Britain, at least not under Respect’s own banner.

    What he did propose that Respect endorse the No2EU slate, the endorsement of which may well have opened the way for Respect members, perhaps even councillors, to stand on that slate. Since the No2EU slate stood irrespective of Respect’s endorsement or not, it is peverse to say that this involved Respect standing a candidate. It would have involved Respect participating in a broader formation with trade unionists, however.

    George Galloway is in full scale political retreat from everything that made him an attractive political figure in the period of the Iraq antiwar movement. He now doesn’t want to be associated with Communists or Trotskyists – whereas previously he trumpeted such associations, with such varied people as John Rees and Lindsay German, to Harry Pollitt or Gordon McLennan. Or even nasty Labour Party ‘ultralefts’ like Tony Benn, who made a video in support of No2EU. He prefers cuddlies like the Greens, whose most prominent London spokesperson, Jenny Jones, found time to agree with Boris Johnson that the RMT’s strikes should be condemned. Or Jon Cruddas, who couldn’t even bring himself to nominate the genuine Labour left, John McDonnell, for Labour leader in 2007. Cruddas preferred Gordon Brown.

    That is the real political nature of the dispute involved here. the new political line considers the mainstream Labour and trade union left, from Benn to Crow, as ‘ultra-left’, and in reality involves orienting to the soft left in the Compass group and the Greens. Working class politics goes out of the window here. The Greens have no conception of the working class as the progressive force in society; Compass is a barely left cover for neo-liberalism. Its just warmed over Eurocommunism in other words. These are the differences in strategy here.

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  12. Jim – it’s not about taking Green votes – it a bout leadership. Had the whole left backed the best placed left candidate able to beat the BNP then we may have shifted the votes necessary. We could have had a projection greater than the sum of our parts.

    For those in NO2EU to simply say ‘it’s nothing to do with me gov’ is an abdication of leadership, especially as some leading members of NO2EU made private promises about not standing in the North West – but then reneged on that promise in order to get a PPB. Leadership is about taking the decisions best for the whole left and not just one section of it. In that No2EU failed the leadership test – as well as failing the electoral test even more spectacularly.

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  13. The Respect Party at its conference led by George and Salma has clearly moved to the right and there is also clearly a majority that are happy with this position and orientation towards “Compass type” Labour party politics and horse trading for votes with some Green party branches (not based on policy agreement or national agreements of any kind but purely on what may benefit each group or certain individuals at local level).

    I take no great delight when I agree with bill j’s remark “This rather confirms those of us who thought that Respect was always a vehicle for Gorgeous, Salma and their mates to get elected rather than the embryo of a working class left alternative.”

    The worse aspect of the conference was the chest beating victoral of the majority led by George, Salma and friends who were only too happy to adopt what came across as a “take it or leave it” approach to those of us who disagreed and denied a fair debate (who were a fair part of the conference especiely the older more active members). And this was after the split with the SWP reducing our size to around 800 members and at a time when we have only just recouperated from this split. What a terrible mistake by George Salma and their friends, one Respect may not recover from thsi time!

    There are now many members of Respect members who will be considering what to do now. My advise is to actively support the new left electorial coalition and for those of a like mind in Respect to work together to make this a success whatever others in Respect may think. After the election things wil be a lot clearer I think.

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  14. still comes down to supporting candidates and building trust locally, national deals with no democratic input are unlikely to work or build trust.

    I think the fact that greens and respects members in some parts of coutry can work together is good.

    Some of us by the way don’t view ecological concern as a distraction from the class struggle.

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  15. tlc – don’t get me wrong people who spent time on No2EU were by and large wasting their time when it could have been better spent elsewhere but actively backing the best placed anti-fascist candidate in the NW is a slightly different argument and applies equally to labour lefts, progressive lib dems or anyone you like – so it should not be laid at the door of No2EU specifically.

    If they weren’t persuaded they weren’t persuaded and I hope that the positive developments we have seen in the last few weeks can be built on, and the usual negative bollocks can be swept away r at least reduced.

    On a different point – there was no deal to stand down for Salma in exchange for anything else.

    The decision to stand down was unconditional and democratically decided at a local level – if it leads to more friendly relations then that’s great but members took that decision because it was the right thing to do not because we were going to get anything out of it.

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  16. “On a different point – there was no deal to stand down for Salma in exchange for anything else.”

    That is an important point Jim, Just as in the North West there was no deal about backing Peter Cranie and the Greens in the Euro-election. We did it because it was the right thing to do. The only arrangement we had was to ensure our own publicity – which we paid for – was such as to be included in the Greens accounts to avoid any legal problems.

    Respect will back Caroline in Brighton because, again, it is the right thing to do. We would do this even if the Birmingham Greens had not taken their decision not to stand against Salma. If something is the right thing to do then you should do it regardless of immediate Party gain.

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  17. Neil, in what way were you “denied a fair debate”. Supporters of your position were able to put motions to the conference (they did – though I notice Milton Keynes chose not to) and to speak at the conference (by raising their hands (which you chose not to). It looks like you denied yourself rather than any other way round.

    If you think you’ve got more in common politically with the comments of Bill Jeffries. then I suspect you’ll never be happy with Respect. Why don’t you volunteer to stand for the new coalition in Milton Keynes? Your welcome to do that – if they’ll have you. Since they haven’t asked Respect to join perhaps they are not too keen on Respect members. Nonetheless, I’m sure you be happy with the democratic processes with this new coalition. How was their founding conference?

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  18. Neil – no one was denied a chance to have their voice heard yesterday and I think my account emphasises the fact that the debate was fairly conducted and of a high quality. Emergency resolutions are always a bit of a judgement call but in the discussion all the points of view were put.

    The assertion that Respect has moved to the right politically does not stand either. It voted to support the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign, the postal workers and the campaign for free public transport as well as a resolution on the politics of the election campaign submitted by SR supporters. These politics will be contained in whatever election material is produced and put Respect well on the left of most candidates next year.

    What gives cause for concern is the continuation of this obsession of smashing dissent rather than permitting it. It’s one of the enduring traits of the British left.

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  19. Neil Williams:

    “I take no great delight when I agree with bill j’s remark “This rather confirms those of us who thought that Respect was always a vehicle for Gorgeous, Salma and their mates to get elected rather than the embryo of a working class left alternative.””

    I don’t think it is wise to take genuine sectarians like Bill J’s remarks that seriously. Ger Francis speaks with forked tongue when he accuses the supporters of the new coalition within Respect of being mad sectarians and the like. But that does not mean that mad sectarians do not exist. I see the same kind of purist hostility to No2EU from the likes of Bill J that such people previously evidenced towards Respect in the period when it was going forward.

    I have no regrets at all about being involved in Respect. It now seems to have gone decisively pear-shaped, but every real political movement carries that risk. Similar mishaps could happen in the future to other formations.

    That does not mean that it was wrong to involve ourselves in trying to push them forward. It just means that our task is difficult and there are many pitfalls and dangers around. But it would be wrong therefore to fall into the trap of taking seriously the real mad sectarians and purists because of that. Not that PR don’t have good people – they do, by the way. But the flaws in their method are many, and mean they are largely impotent. It was people organic to Respect who had political impact yesterday, not the like of PR.

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  20. Liam, there was no obsession with smashing dissent. There were some sharply worded exchanges with one small section of the conference.

    The dissenting minority were allowed to put their case repeatedly. They were allowed to submit motions, argue them and win them had people agreed with them. What they were not allowed to do was submit emergency motions which were in no way emergencies.

    But why should they be immune from criticism – however sharp – when their actions in the past have created real problems for Respect’s national organisation.

    What really annoys me is that the likes of ID feel free to publicly criticise GG and Salma whenever they see fit – but they get all upset if someone mentions Nick Wrack by name. In the words of Corporal Jones – “They don’t like it up ’em!”

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  21. i’m sure the isg / sr are really pleased they liquidated their paper into the hands of the respect leadership now.

    some serious realignment is needed now i’d suggest.

    radical left-wing forces with class based politics, along with a few of the left-led unions, need to urgently get their act together to create a new alliance, leading to a new party.

    ks

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  22. TLC

    “What really annoys me is that the likes of ID feel free to publicly criticise GG and Salma whenever they see fit – but they get all upset if someone mentions Nick Wrack by name. In the words of Corporal Jones – “They don’t like it up ‘em!””

    I’ve got no problem with criticisms of Nick Wrack ‘by name’…

    Just one proviso, though. They have to be based on fact.

    Ger Francis, repeating what Salma Yaqoob said at the conference yesterday, simply stated an untruth. They both accused Nick of advocating – indeed insisting – that Respect stand in the Euro Elections.

    Problem is, his actual position was that Respect should not stand, but should endorse (and participate in) No2EU. Which is the opposite position.

    Those who have forgotten what happened, and who argued what, can refresh their memories if they like by reading through the exchanges on this thread, on this very blog:

    http://tinyurl.com/yjuvdkq

    If you have to invent fictitious positions and attribute them to someone else in order to ‘discredit’ your own invented lies, then you are demonstrably bankrupt. Truth will out. It always does.

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  23. “What really annoys me is that the likes of ID feel free to publicly criticise GG and Salma whenever they see fit ”

    My perception of ID has been that he’s always defended GG and Salma Yaqoob from their critics outside of the organisation, even those on its left.

    Ger Francis on the other hand argues like a press officer, on the basis that everything they say must be right. He’s so predictable in this that I’ve considered supplying him with some stock phrases he could
    cut and paste. This would consiberably enhance his productivity and maybe earn him a Christmas bonus.

    Political loyalty is all well and good, but I’ve never really been clear about the arcane process whereby Galloway’s politics are determined by Respect. Especially as these are often quite contentious e.g. his various media appearances and pronouncements.

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  24. Jim Jay ‘For the record, as a Green Party member who’s done a fair amount of statistical analysis on the Euro elections, I’m absolutely convinced that No2EU did not let Griffin in by depriving Peter Cranie of the seat.
    Much as I would like to scape goat someone for such a distressing result there is no evidence to say that No2EU attracted a significant number of ‘Green votes’. Not even the 0.3% extra votes we needed.
    The accusations are understandable, but don’t have any basis in the evidence.’

    Jim, I think you underestimate the excellent work of SP and others can and does in reaching out inside the trade unions and working class – what they found, I think was that they were out of step with what was needed to stop the BNP – and that was a united left campaign in the North West around Peter Cranie – Their influence can be way about their size – just remember the Poll Tax and Lindsay struggle.

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  25. Ger,

    Respect is indeed thoroughly rooted in working class communities, but only in parts of East London, Birmingham and Manchester. If Respect offers the best hope for an alternative party to the left of Labour, it does not yet do so at a national level, nor does it yet do so in the workplace and in campaigns. In the next few months, all Respect members should help to get our candidates elected. We are in a very good position to do so having a consistent electoral presence for the last 5 years.

    But at the forthcoming general election, we also need to offer a credible alternative to the left of Labour across the country. As the resolution adopted unanimously at the conference states: “RESPECT also recognizes the need to offer as many working people as possible an electoral alternative to New Labour, including constituencies where we cannot stand ourselves ………….. We will also therefore respond positively, and constructively to any serious efforts by well-established and credible national organizations, such as those which launched the No2EU campaign in the Euro Elections, to create a democratic framework – possibly around the principles of the People’s Charter – which could facilitate a broader unity than we could achieve in our own right.”

    We need to recognise that others on the left are also calling for a new party to the left of Labour. For some it may be rhetoric, but for others it is genuine. We do not want the old type of narrow Marxist party, but a broad working class party which can be a home for all socialists and anti-capitalists. When a left electoral coalition is declared, which includes organisations and individuals that had launched No2EU such as Dave Nellist, Bob Crow, and the CPB which backs the Morning Star, then “we should respond positively and constructively”. This does not mean unity in the short term or abandoning the name of Respect, but it does lay the basis “to facilitate a broader unity”. This would help towards the creation in the medium of a broad working class party which would be attractive to all the disillusioned Labour Party supporters who want to fight for social justice, peace and equality.

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  26. ID

    Nick Wrack and yourself insisted that Respect join the No2EU coalition and back it in every seat in the country, including the West Midlands – thus standing (as part of something else) in the West Midlands. So stop splitting hairs.

    You ignored the position put by Birmingham NC members that they were in serious discussions with the Greens which would be wrecked by a blanket national position of backing No2EU everywhere. You tried to pass a motion that didn’t even acknowledge that we had settled policy on supporting the Greens in the North West.

    You lost that vote in the summer. We adopted a position recognising that there were progressive candidates standing for the Greens and No2EU, and which allowed Respect in different regions to back them. Nick Wrack then resigned as National Secretary and other of your co-thinkers resigned as National Treasurer and from putting together the Respect paper.

    Then, when people at the conference point out how disastrous your approach would have been for the organisation, out come cries of ‘right wing’, ‘driving out dissent’, etc.

    In fact people have been remarkably accommodating.

    There is a difference in politics: whether the focus in Respect should be a serious election campaign and cooperation with credible forces; or whether it should be rolling that up into the coalition with no name. Building Respect or denigrating it.

    As for people being too sharp in the debate: every careful speech outlining the co-operation that has been achieved – such as in Birmingham – with others on the left was ignored by ID and others who wanted falsely to paint themselves as the champions of unity, having done their level best to blow up each concrete manifestation of it achieved thus far.

    That dishonesty was called out and refuted.

    Now we can clearly move on.

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  27. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Kevin is too polite, I fear. All the email accounts were wiped and there were attempts to contact various individuals to build up the minority. The new officers ignored it all and got on with building structure and organization.

    Those editing and producing the paper actually walked away two days before the deadline without informing the NC or officers.

    The executive committee only started meeting after the resignations as it was deemed important to build accountability.

    The June National Council received a motion two days before it met calling for the winding up of Respect. ID and Wrack and co were scandalized when it was correctly ruled out of order and discussion of it postponed to the September meeting (when it was resoundingly defeated). The new officers circulated the motion to members and put it up on the website.

    Two ’emergency’ motions were submitted after the deadline for conference motions despite both issues being the subject of discussion before the deadline – this is subversion of democratic procedures and the CAC was right to object.

    It is also understood that all those that signed the emergency motion (only four came to the conference) cancelled standing orders after the resignations or, in one case, was never technically a member.

    This reads to me as a bust and split operation.

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  28. “Nick Wrack and yourself insisted that Respect join the No2EU coalition and back it in every seat in the country, including the West Midlands – thus standing (as part of something else) in the West Midlands. So stop splitting hairs.”

    Not splitting hairs at all. Salma and Ger stated that NW had insisted that Respect (not No2EU) stand in the Euro Elections in the West Midlands. No2EU stood irrespective of our endorsement, so that is simply irrelevant with regard to the statement about NW and Respect (not No2EU) standing, which is false. Truth will out and is out.

    “You ignored the position put by Birmingham NC members that they were in serious discussions with the Greens which would be wrecked by a blanket national position of backing No2EU everywhere. You tried to pass a motion that didn’t even acknowledge that we had settled policy on supporting the Greens in the North West.”

    Another false statement, since the motion concerned explicitly made an exception of the North West, as can be discerned from the discussion on the thread I linked to above.

    That’s two provably false statements that anyone can see are false. You can ratchet up the subjective venom of your denunciations – call us all the swine of creation if you like, but you can’t change the fact that they are obviously untrue.

    Far from refuting anyone else’s dishonesty, you have exposed your own to the socialist public here. There’s an old saying … if you’re in a hole….

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  29. I don’t know exactly what ‘Dirty Red Bandana’ is talking about, but when he writes the following very odd statement:

    “The June National Council received a motion two days before it met calling for the winding up of Respect.”

    Others can judge his cogency (or otherwise).

    This (below) is the motion he is talking about. Can any reasonable person say that this is a call for the winding up of Respect?

    I don’t think so. But carry on with the subjective intensity and the wild allegations. I’m sure they are doing a wonderful job in winning over any undecided people who are reading this exchange.

    “Motion

    This Respect National Committee notes the resolution headed Respect perspectives (elections) that was agreed at the 2008 Respect conference. This included the following:

    1. “Conference recognises that Respect cannot, at this stage, present an alternative at elections except in a few places. Conference therefore agrees that Respect will seek to work with other organisations and individuals who also want to build a leftwing alternative, with a view to presenting the broadest possible left-wing challenge at elections. This could include electoral alliances, non-aggression pacts, joint lists and other such methods of collaboration.”

    We believe that it is imperative that there is the biggest left-wing electoral challenge possible at the next general election, to give working-class people the opportunity to vote for candidates who represent their interests.

    We note the continuing fall in the Labour vote.

    We note also the recent collaboration between the RMT, the CPB, SP, AGS and others in NO2EU. We also note the recent Open Letter from the SWP.

    We would welcome talks between Respect and these organizations and others with the aim of creating a left-wing electoral coalition to challenge at the next General Election.

    In order to maximize impact it would be best if this coalition could agree to stand under a single name and with a common minimum programme.

    We therefore agree to write to the above named organizations to propose that talks are set up to discuss these issues.

    Proposed by Nick Wrack”

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  30. ID

    I’m not going to persistently engage with you, as it serves little purpose. But you need to stop dodging and to face the truth:

    1) You and Nick Wrack opposed us supporting Peter Crainie in the Euros.
    2) You wanted us to back No2EU everywhere and to be on its lists everywhere. This amounts to standing and denying so is splitting hairs.
    3) You (plural) presented a motion to the National Council in April which said we should back No2EU everywhere. The words explicitly did not accept the existing policy – constructed through patient work in the North West and agreed nationally – of supporting Crainie. I don’t want to have to produce the words of that motion, but if necessary I will.
    4) Vigorous opposition forced you to retreat to saying that your motion – to back No2EU everywhere – did not actually mean in the North West.
    5) Ger explained the discussions happening in the West Midlands with the Greens along the lines of the North West and that the prescriptive, dogmatic position in your motion would wreck them. Nick Wrack was asked directly if he would concede tactical flexibility in the West Mids, as not to do so undermined Salma’s prospects in Hall Green. He refused to do so.
    6) Your motion was defeated, a motion embracing a flexible approach was passed and various people resigned their positions.

    Others can judge claims as to who is being dishonest. I’m confident that the record leads to a clear conclusion. I’m further confident that your tone will dispel in any observer’s mind qualms that you might have been dealt with intolerantly at the Respect conference.

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  31. “In order to maximize impact it would be best if this coalition could agree to stand under a single name”

    Is that name likely to be “Respect”? What would you rather George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Abjol Miah stood under, ID?

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  32. Jim Jepps:

    Much as I would like to scape goat someone for such a distressing result there is no evidence to say that No2EU attracted a significant number of ‘Green votes’. Not even the 0.3% extra votes we needed.

    The accusations are understandable, but don’t have any basis in the evidence.

    Jim,

    I know you are as addicted to crunching the numbers as I am, and you often have good insight; but … …

    If the effort that was put into NO2EU had been spent in arguing the case for a tactical vote for the greens among progressive voters willing to place a tactical vote, then it may have been a different story.

    This opportunity cost cannot be easily factored.

    Personally, had I been in the constituency I would initially have been minded to vote labour, to get Theresa Griffin elected as the third placed labour candidate, a good pregressive candidate, but the course of the campaign convinced me that Cranie was the better placed candidate tactically.

    There is a small but significant audience open to tactical voting arguments.

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  33. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    NIce one, ID. Thanks for reproducing the wording of your motion.

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  34. ‘What would you rather George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Abjol Miah stood under?’
    New Labour Against the War, perhaps? The Liberal Democrats? Liam reveals exactly what I feared after the SWP split. We now have a discredited and irrelevant husk of the SWP, and a Respect Party that is the liberal vehicle of George, Salma, and Abjol: devoid of socialist influence. I believe Liam is too kind in his report. Respect party socialists are starting to realise in despair. I’m not on the inside, and Liam is, but it sounds to me like he’s wasting his time. I guess we must wait for Tory government and the following realignment.

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  35. As an alternative to ‘Son of NO2EU’, I quite like No2UK.

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  36. Kevin Ovenden

    “2) You wanted us to back No2EU everywhere and to be on its lists everywhere. This amounts to standing and denying so is splitting hairs.”

    Funny, but for people who attach overriding importance to the party name, you seem to have competely junked this issue here. Standing under a different ticket is suddenly the same as standing as Respect? If so, why all the fuss about ‘abandoning’ the name?

    Standing as No2EU is not Respect standing. Unforunately, what was said on the floor of the conference, and repeated here, was that Nick Wrack had proposed that Respect should stand in the Euros. He did not. You know that very well. Pretending that these are the same thing simply wont wash. Its no wonder that you don’t want to ‘engage’ with me. Its such a simple point, and you are obviously contradicting yourself, Kevin. Keep digging…

    Actually, part of the reason for proposing this that it was universally acknowledged that Respect did not have the resources to stand on its own. It could only play a role by allying with other forces. The real question is … which other forces? But this silliness is mean to obscure the politics of that difference.

    This is just a cacophony of silliness from people with tunnel vision.

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  37. This I believe is the wording of the last part of Nick’s motion which seems to be causing ID some problems of memory.

    We therefore agree:
    (1) Not to stand candidates in the forthcoming European elections;
    (2) To support No2EU in those European elections;
    (3) To campaign for No2EU in those elections and to participate in its election activity;
    (4) To seek through negotiation with the No2EU organisers to obtain the selection of Respect members on its constituency lists of candidates;

    Recognise these words ID? Nick didn’t want Respect to stand ,as Respect, in the Euros but for Respect to stands as part of No2EU. so it looks like you wanted us to stand against the Greens. As ever, it not the exact words that matter but the reality on the ground. The four clauses add up to Respect standing against the Greens – albeit under a new name. Why do you try to hide from the reality of the position you supported.

    Thankfully, the members of the NC defeated this nonsense.

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  38. Prinkipo Exile

    “Is that name likely to be “Respect”? What would you rather George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Abjol Miah stood under, ID?”

    A silly question, about discussions that never happened. Its rather difficult to give a answer to a hypothetical question about something that never happened.

    (According to Kevn Ovenden, that doesn’t really matter, as to stand as something else is the same as standing as Respect anyway!)

    The question is rather … why are people so scared of such discussions and what they may have produced, name-wise or in any other sense?

    The answer came from George Galloway at the conference, when he said that Respect should not ally electorally with Communists and Trotskyists because Communism and Trotskyism were electorally unpopular.

    Which is a qualitative step to the right from the founding of Respect – the Unity Coalition – which was precisely an electoral alliance between an expelled Labour MP, Trotskyists (the SWP) and left-wing Muslims. It should be recalled that there were considerable efforts made to get the Communist Party of Britain to support Respect, which unfortunately failed, as the ‘Reclaim Labour’ faction was then still far too dominant for that., Things have improved a bit on that front since then.

    In any case, with this statement, GG effectively repudiated the foundation of Respect itself.

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  39. “As ever, it not the exact words that matter but the reality on the ground. The four clauses add up to Respect standing against the Greens – albeit under a new name. Why do you try to hide from the reality of the position you supported.”

    Pathetic sophistry. In political content, it would not have been simply ‘Respect’ that would have been standing but a new broader formation – albeit incorporating the strength of Respect and other parts of the left and labour movement.

    Anyway, you can’t get away from the fact that Salma and Ger accused Nick of being in favour of Respect standing. A revealing falsehood, accompanied by squeals about ‘dogmatism’ and the like.

    There is a chronic lack of imagination involved there, isn’ t there? An inability to imagine a broader, stronger left formation that incorporated Respect’s strengths. Or maybe they can ‘imagine’ it very well, and that’s the point – they abhor it and prefer middle class politics – the Greens – to a stronger working class political movement.

    What’s new is the refusal to countenance standing in alliance with Communist and/or Trotskyists. If that had been operative in 2004, Respect could never have been formed. In political content, GG’s speech in the second session repudiated the Respect project itself.

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  40. Whatever Ian. You are living proof that while you can take the man out of the Spartacus League, you can’t take the Spartacus League out of the man. We will just have to accept that apparently Respect has now joined your list of political disappointments, right up there with the Sparts, Weekly Worker and NO2EU. Apologies if I have missed out on any other organization whose ranks you have gone through. Somehow I think we’ll get over the disappointment of your disappointment.

    Now, perhaps a more constructive use of your time would be you to put your energies elsewhere. And the same goes for Neil and associates. You have collectively flogged a particular argument for a while now inside Respect and not got the results you want. That’ s politics. Face up to it, move on, and do something constructive instead of remaining part of an organization you have obviously lost faith in and are without the influence to change. What’s the point of that?

    Either way, this particular argument inside Respect is now over. And no amount of your frenetically pounding your keyboard with a scalded hand will change that fact one iota.

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  41. ID

    Good luck with “broader and stronger”, ie 17,000 rather than 67,000 votes in London and writing off any discussion with the Greens.

    The way ahead is clear; take it. We can assess our relative approachs in seven months time.

    You’ve got your coalition to build, we’ve got an election campaign and a serious orientation elsewhere.

    You should get stuck in. We have already.

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  42. tlc

    The motion that was put to the vote – and lost by one vote – explicitly exempted the North West from the policy. This was a concession to the fact that a previous NC had authorised the North West to do this, before No2EU was actually formed.

    Its TLC who is suffering from memory loss here.

    Motions evolve – that is the norm – and quoting an earlier draft and trying to pass that off as the one that was actually voted on is simply dishonest.

    And it is interesting that TLC reproduces this point of Nick’s:

    “We therefore agree:
    (1) Not to stand candidates in the forthcoming European elections;
    (2) To support No2EU in those European elections;”

    That alone is proof that Ger and Salma’s statements about Nick’s position were false. No2EU is not Respect, and Respect members authorised to stand as part of another formation would not have been Respect either, but something new – more than the sum of its parts.

    And that is of course what the cheerleaders for the Greens, and Compass, and other such forms of middle class politics, were afraid of. That Respect would be drawn into a working class formation that would be more than the sum of its parts.

    This issue of timing, and what issues are current and when, underlines why the ruling out of order of the Emergency motion on the new coalition was a bureaucratic act. Before No2EU was formed as a temporary platform for the Euro elections, a different political situation existed to after it was formed. Before the definite announcement of the formation of the new left coalition for the General Election, the political situation was likewise different to that after it was announced. By ruling out the emergency resolution from being propertly debated and voted upon, conference was being prevented from voting on the political situation as it is now, and forced to vote it on it as it was before the coalition was announced, i.e, when the deadline for motions closed. In voting not to hear the motion that addressed the situation now, conference only attacked its own democratic rights to discuss the current situation.

    That is no victory for rational politics, but the product of foolish and dishonest demagogy. Which is where inaccuracies like Salma and Ger’s falsehood about Nick’s views on Respect standing come in. They were designed to decieve the conference participants into voting against their own rights to discuss the current situation, as opposed to that of a week earlier. No skin off my nose, really. Its the poor saps who were so conned that have lost out, not me. But its a source of shame for Respect, and a dire precedent.

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  43. “Good luck with “broader and stronger”, ie 17,000 rather than 67,000 votes in London and writing off any discussion with the Greens.”

    Funnily enough, I’ve got no problem with discussions and even alliances with Greens. What I’m opposed to is placing the interests of uniting with Greens above that of uniting with working class forces. The working class should play the leading role, the radical petty-bourgeoisie as a ally but in a secondary role. Not the other way round.

    It’s called Marxism. But then that’s old fashioned and electorally unpopular, so has to be shunned, as George now says. What a waste of positive potential that is.

    But again, at least some poltical clarity has been reached, which is a good thing in itself.

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  44. Shall we take that as your resignation then?

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  45. ID

    I’m ignoring the chaff but making one final comment in your direction:

    “the poor saps”? That would be at least 70 percent of the conference (much more, in fact, by the end of the debate). Yes – the truth is in your head, the masses are just too stupid to recognise your genius.

    The line of political division is in the open. You can now take to the wing and build the serious socialist force which the “saps’” gullibility and the renegade Respect leaders have stopped you doing thus far.

    The proletariat of the London Borough of Southwark awaits your renaissance and leadership.

    Let’s see how well it’s gone in six months’ time.

    To everyone else: please forgive my sardonic asides; but I have a visceral reaction to those who refer to those on the other side of a long and fair debate as “saps”. That’s not my idea of socialism.

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  46. Not for now. There is such a thing as a pyrhhic victory. I have to observe that this year’s conference was approximately the same size as last years, despite the claim that the membership has more or less trebled, and there were actually fewer nominees for the NC. That doesn’t really add up. Last year I was on the CAC and we had more NC nominees than there were places. So we had a proper election. This year, not possible. That is not a sign of a healthy, growing organisation – less people want to lead it than last year. And of course if you ignore the people you don’t want (like me), that makes even less still.

    Things ain’t so rosy as you think, Ger, and ‘events’.. could easily cause the tide to turn against you. The Respect constitution allows membership of other political parties, but I guess I’ll be involved in the newer coalition more than Respect for the moment.

    I think its likely these issues will be revisited in the future. So I’ll keep my Respect card and indeed my position on the NC for the coming year. I have a very philosophical view of all this – its all part of the rich tapestry of left politics in a very difficult period. I have actually a good deal less antagonism towards George, Salma, and yourself than you do towards me. Sleep tight;-)

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  47. ID

    Ok. I’m sure the vast majority of those who were at the conference will have a view about being called “saps”.

    I’m struggling to find the right word for such elitist crap – but whatever it is, it’s nothing to do with anything most of us in Respect would recognise as socialism.

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  48. Oh, don’t take it so personally Ian. It is not you I am antagonistic to. It’s your toy bolshevik politics. But since you are staying in, I will look forward to hearing your reports on the progress of Respect’s general election campaign in Camberwell and Peckham.

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  49. ID / Ger – I think you have both gone over this bit of ground quite thoroughly. Perhaps now is a good moment to end the slugging match.

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  50. ID – your point about the NC is really quite pathetic. Perhapsn the reason why nominatioins were down was that most of the people who supported the non-emergency ’emergency motion’ chose not to put themselves forward for the NC this year. It looks very much like they are on their way out and good luck to them.

    As for your comment about ” Its the poor saps who were so conned that have lost out, not me” what a nasty and patronising view you have of the Respect membership. Your arrogance is astounding.

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  51. Obviously, how Respect handles its internal affairs is none of my business. But I am worried about this binary that appears to be emerging – ie, either talk to the Greens, or seriously consider a united slate with SWP, SP, CPB, etc. It should be possible to do both. Yet, the tone being reported here is one of hostility to other left-of-Labour forces, barring a few individuals such as Dave Nellist. The position appears to be to back New Labour outside of a small number of Respect strongholds and feasible Green challengers. That political retrenchment may make sense for Respect as an organisation. And if you really believe that Respect has deeper roots in the working class than any other left-of-Labour formation (which I think is a bizarre and self-defeating claim – even if it were true, it would be like claiming to be the tallest dwarf in Milton Keynes), then it is comprehensible. But I don’t think it makes sense in terms of strengthening the Left in the face of a coming Tory administration, and an opposition dominated by people like Lord Mandelson. New Labour is going to be electorally obliterated whether the Left supports it or not. The issue is whether the Left will go down with the sinking Brown ship, or whether it will be able to offer an alternative pole of attraction at the elections.

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  52. Considering this all from Scotland , where a dis-united left has just got gubbed by the BNP in Glasgow NE, I regret the english left have not learned for the tragedy which is Socialism in Scotland

    In order for Respect to win in 2010, I am sure members will see the advantages of at very least a non-agression pact with son of No2EU, and the SWP- who have specificlaly proposed this in regards to their electoral activities.. What is your view? What if anything will you offer for a free run in the areas where you are intending to stand?

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  53. tlc – dos’nt it worry you just a teeny weeny bit about all the very good comrades who are no longer in the leadership of Respect or active, or even party members (and many no doubt were also your friends at one time) now compared to four/five years ago, and I am not talking about the SWP? I could name names but you know the many, many good people I am talking about.

    We have gone from an organistion that did have many of the people that George so insulted on Saturday (the “coalition”) of around say 3000+ on its formation or thereafter to about 800 now (with only a meaningful presence is East london and part of Birmingham – the same areas the old Communist Party did well in decades ago so we are hardly braking new ground historically).

    I thought the conference was a slightly smaller than last year but this proves little as many people like me had problems with road traffic on the day (as did George) or were not able to attend for personal reasons. But I think its true that many good activists did not put themslves forward for the NC. I can only say that speaking to a number of people at conference that there were many, and these were people who are active with plenty of political experiance, who were shocked by some of Geoerge’s comments about the Left. Had these comments made by George been made five years ago then Respect would not exist today!

    Are you not just a bit concerned about this? If anything I get the feeling that the majority cant wait for more of us to leave (like ger) if we fit into any of George’s named catagories (I am many orhers dont as like George we were members of the Labour party and left with George). I dont see the “new” Respect that George described on Saturday as the way forward and there are clearly others who agree with me. I think I am entiltled to these views and the right to fight for them within Respect. Yes I am a minority but I can live with that – Its just possible at next years conference we will all be looking at this in a very different light..

    It will be interesting to see the view of Socialist Resistence take at national level ( a “trot” organisation laid into by George even if he then said a few kind words about Alan). Socialist Resistence (and I am not a member) have only have played a very honerable positive role in Respect and thus for me George’s remarks about “trots” etc were out of order – he was actually insulting part of his own party.

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  54. ‘Lenin’, and others, makes a false polarization for their own ends. As is very clear to anybody who reads what myself, Kevin, tlc and others have posted, Respect’s position remains after the conference as it was before. We will be standing as ‘Respect’ in the general election and we will seek to support those candidates not in Respect best placed to advance the left. Both inside and outside the Labour party. George specifically mentioned Dave Nellist as an example of the latter.

    All we have done at conference is to be a lot more forthright in criticizing the ultra-leftism of a tiny but noisy number of Respect members who talk about ‘unity’ while being very hostile to working with the Greens and being indifferent to a Tory victory.

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  55. As outsiders there is obviously nothing we can do about Respects internal life, but that doesn’t mean how it conducts its affairs isn’t revealing about its political trajectory and frankly, how not to do things.
    Essentially, like the SWP, it is run by a clique of full timers who decide everything at the behest of a small number of official leaders – the MP and a few councillors.
    It is astonishing how these bureaucrats, all formally SWP leaders, went from running a nominally revolutionary organisation, to an actually non-revolutionary one, without turning a hair.
    It reveals how this degenerate organisational form really is antithetical to socialism
    They can get on with it of course. But as a negative example of what not to do it holds lessons.

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  56. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    You should always be careful of listening too much to polemic against an opponent and assuming it is their position, Lenin. ID’s point about the fear inside ‘the Respect leadership’ is not as he believes about ‘working class politics’. It is about throwing away a successful electoral base in favour of the older model that has left the left electorally weak for generations. We have seen this confirmed in the Left List campaign and the No2EU campaigns in the last two years. Meanwhile, Respect won in Sparkbrook.

    This is the meaning and context of Galloway’s polemic. We will not return to the methods of the old left. There is no doubt that Respect will support the Coalition in areas where it is credible and will continue to hold bilateral talks with the organizations involved. Respect will also seek cooperation and agreement with the Green Party and some Labour candidates as well.

    The biggest problem is that most of the left is not well placed to challenge the public service cuts consensus at the election. Wherever it is, it will receive Respect’s support. Can other parts of the left say that it will do the same? So far, only the Green Party has indicated this.

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  57. Ger – I don’t know what you think my own nefarious ends are. Just to be clear about them, however, I want there to be a united electoral project for 2010, and I want the SWP, SP, Respect, CPB and everyone on the left to be involved in that on as realistic a basis as possible. The trouble is that from this report I gather that barring a few exceptions where Respect can stand, and barring a few Green and possibly SP/SonofNo2EU candidates you might support, Respect will be backing Labour. That is what is in the report. This is what you have more or less confirmed. So, this false opposition between talking to the Greens and working with “left groups” the “far left”, “Trotskyists” etc hasn’t been introduced or confected by me. It appears, based on the above, to have been introduced by both sides in this argument within the Respect Party. And that’s a problem for left unity at the next election.

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  58. Lenin,
    It might be sensible to talk to your own national secretary about relations with Respect. i believe that respect’s national secretary has written proposing a meeting to discuss building support for both Respect candidates and for any candidates that the SWP would like to stand. I also understand that they may have been offered the Respect name should they wish to use it. But our support would not be conditional on that. GG has already offered to help out Val Vise in preston for a day duringthe election campaign.

    The question for us is not about a united slate with the SWP, SP etc. You (the SWP) , like Respect, have not been invited to the No2EU party, have you?

    The real question is how the whole left mobilises to support candidates that have a serious base and can do well, including in pl;aces winning.

    As for Neil. Surely you cannot claim that you and several others from Respect’s last NC chose to abandon ship beacuse of something George was going to say at a conference weeks after the close of nominations. Post facto justifications may make you feel better but don’t really butter many carrots,

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  59. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Bill J, if that’s the level of your analysis, no wonder you always look lost, mate.

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  60. I agree with Lenin where he said; “I am worried about this binary that appears to be emerging – ie, either talk to the Greens, or seriously consider a united slate with SWP, SP, CPB, etc. It should be possible to do both.”

    You can have friendly relations with more than one organisation at once. It would only become an issue for the Greens if Respect joined an organisation that, for example, made it a point of honour to stand against the Green’s leading candidates.

    In general it sounds like Respect is taking the right course, which is to foster good relationships on the left whilst concentrating on their target candidates that they hope to do well in the election in 24 weeks time.

    A new formation is obviously not going to make a significant impact at the coming general election so it would be foolish to hitch themselves to that at this time, but there does seem to be a tone of hostility on both sides that seems a bit unnecessary.

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  61. Lenin: ‘I want there to be a united electoral project for 2010’

    Fine, but it is not going to happen. So, in the meantime, lets all work to advance the totality of the left by non-aggression pacts, uniting to support the best placed candidate, including Labour and Green candidates etc. That was our position before conference and it remains our position after conference. I am not sure what you find difficult to understand about it.

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  62. “The question for us is not about a united slate with the SWP, SP etc. You (the SWP) , like Respect, have not been invited to the No2EU party, have you?”

    A key realism- in that a united slate at present would not be practical. The SWP I believe realise this as do Respect- and an agreement not to stand against each other seems to be the best which can be acheived

    However, Galloways vocal anti-communism is not acceptable and is not helping things.

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  63. Lenin – Ger Francis didn’t describe your ends as “nefarious”. How dare you distort what he said for your own…

    bill j – Judging by recent developments in the SWP you’re in no position to preach.
    Developments neither of us know the details of in an organisation neither of us is a member of?
    My point was that Galloway turning on the left fits with my analysis (and I thought yours) that the post-split Respect is a cross class group whose only function is to get its leaders elected, and so it should come as no shock to anyone that it has returned to the immediate post-split position of calling the far left “sects”as it is only interested in talking about socialism as long as the left cover it brings does not distract from its electoral trajectory.

    ID – I have to observe that this year’s conference was approximately the same size as last years, despite the claim that the membership has more or less trebled, and there were actually fewer nominees for the NC. That doesn’t really add up.
    So would I be right in thinking this one wasn’t a delegate conference either? I think it adds up to an endemic dishonesty in the Respect leadership and the organisation being an obstacle to left unity. I recognise that you and those around you have tried to change the facts on the ground, but perhaps the time has come to recognise that if Galloway couldn’t live with the SWP he’s never going to have time for far smaller groups of socialists.

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  64. Meanwhile Galloway Forest Park goes dark so that the stars can be better observed:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/8361244.stm

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  65. Ger – this is very odd. One moment, you suspect my motives. Next you think I don’t comprehend the very position that I’ve summarised and objected to several times. Yet not once in replying to me have you done anything other than re-state and different wording the very position that I am disagreeing with. At any rate, and as our conversation has quickly passed the point of diminishing returns, I’ll go back to my starting point: it’s your business how you decide to conduct yourselves, but I find the present stance regrettable.

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  66. Neil, your political position is not the same as Socialist Resistance. On the issue of Labour v the Tories they are not indifferent. And they have pioneered on the far left an orientation towards the Green Left to which you are deeply hostile. Compare Liam’s account of the conference with mine. On the fundamental political issues we do not differ. Where we do differ is that he is particularly hostile to a certain style of internal politics prevalent on the hard left becoming the cultural norm inside Respect. He is entirely consistent on this, and runs his blog accordingly. Believe it or not, I agree too, and would much rather avoid conflict but don’t know how you can resolve irrconsible positions without robust debate. The good news is with a much more united and politically coherent leadership, the coming year will be a more positive one.

    ‘I get the feeling that the majority cant wait for more of us to leave’

    I ask this without any personal hostility towards you at all, but other than for factional and cynical reasons, it is beyond me why you would want to stay?
    You are thoroughly disillusioned and miserable about Respect, you are completely at odds with its political direction, which you and others are without the influence to change. And, in case you are still harbouring any illusions about this even after the conference, that situation will not change. Most of those who put their name to the so-called emergency motion did not even bother to turn up to conference to speak to it. Most, who were on the NC, have resigned from it. That political cabal is finished. Good. Although weirdly, the fact you threw in the towel even before the conference started adversely affected the turnout. When we in Birmingham knew the battle was won in advance we took the foot off getting our members and concentrated on other things. (The conferene also unfortunately concided with a 800 strong wedding in the area involving families who are key supporters which affected the Brum tournout). We could even be magnanimous in victory. Hence, to put it bluntly, the fact you and Ian are still on the NC.

    If someone is going to invest time and money in being active on the left, is it not better to put it into an organization you believe in and have hope for? Anyway, whatever you do, I hope you find it a rewarding use of your time.

    ‘Galloway’s vocal anti-communism is not acceptable’

    That is a misrepresentation. He attacked those holding a myopic obsession with the far left, and quite rightly attacked such orientations and groupings as a political hindrance. And in view of his own experience with the largest entity on the far left who went all out to destroy Respect in Tower Hamlets, can you blame him if he is a bit scarred by the experience?

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  67. I’m very optimistic that once the SWP CC have manoeuvred the Left Platform people out of the organisation that these comrades will once again take up politics and return to Respect where, if they are prepared to act in good faith and in an exemplary fashion, I’m sure they will be welcomed with open arms.

    By the way, the proper position at the Euros that had the best chance of stopping the BNP would have been to vote labour. Though it is doubtful that it would have been successful as the working class seemed determined to abstain to give the leadership a good kick particularly after Blears and the Blairites attempted their eve of election coup. At the time I thought NO2EU might be an interesting phenomenon and others thought that supporting the Greens might pay dividends later. I don’t think anybody covered themselves in glory but at the same time whatever we do and, in fact, our very growth, will mean the fascist menace will emerge in one way or another.

    As for the upcoming General Election, Respect has once again shown that its primary orientation is to the labour and trade union movement both by standing on a clear anti-imperialist, anti-cuts platform where it is embedded and by clearly stating that it is in absolute favour of the return of a Labour government in solidarity with the millions of workers who are determined to keep the Tory menace at bay.

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  68. Lenin:

    The trouble is that from this report I gather that barring a few exceptions where Respect can stand, and barring a few Green and possibly SP/SonofNo2EU candidates you might support, Respect will be backing Labour.

    But won’t the SWP also be backing Labour?

    Has there been a reappraisal of the SWP’s position that Labour is a “bourgeois workers party”? and therefore to be supported in elections except where an alternatve candidate credibly advances the prospects of the left?

    This would be a major reorientation by the SWP if they decided, like the SP, that Labour is now an unmitigated capitalist party.

    Where is the political discussion about this major change in strategy published? i have not seen it

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  69. Lenin

    As Ger points out, our position is centred on practical efforts to advance the left – not using calls for unity to try to force others behind a banner with no writing on it and no prospect of success.

    I put that position at the Socialist Party conference, warmly endorsing Dave Nellist, Val Wise, Dai Davies and Caroline Lucas. While Alex Gordon from the RMT was quite sober about the possibilities, a number of SP contributions went along the lines of: you either get behind the coalition (which is to stand candidates under a new, yet to be decided, name) or you’re being sectarian.

    The SWP’s position was, as I understood it, far less dogmatic and bit more realistic. It was to seek co-operation along the lines sketched out by Mike Rosen back in June – ie taking account of the actual state of the left and getting behind the best placed left candidate, whatever rubric they were standing under.

    That’s close to the policy we have adopted. Unfortunately, the reciprocation to that responsible position has been limited, though very welcome – from the Greens and some individual credible left candidates. That won’t alter our general approach; others can assess whose words about advancing the left as a whole are matched by deeds.

    And that approach has to be based on both a sober assessment of the possibilities and an understanding of what securing electoral success entails.

    It is simply unrealistic for one group of people to insist that the three best placed left candidates, who’ve built a base and recognition under a party name, abandon that name probably four months before parliament is prorogued, and after they have launched their election campaigns, and throw in their lot with something that does not yet exist.

    A little modesty is in order. Not least because the precursor to this coalition was somewhat less than successful.

    There are four further issues. First, after the mistaken decision not to back the best placed left candidate to stop Nick Griffin in the euros, I’m worried about what tactics the people directing this coalition will come up with at the general election. A foray into Barking based on a total misjudgement of the consciousness of the voters there and what a left candidacy would achieve could well bring disaster, and in so doing discredit the whole idea of a building a political force to the left of Labour. Are you confident that the correct judgements will be made? As the process around this coalition already shows, there will be no mechanism for the concerns of those outside the “core group” to be articulated. To his credit, Alex Gordon has acknowledged that standing candidates is not a win-win option. If they do badly, it undermines the left as a whole.

    Second, the strain of ultra-leftism that says we are indifferent to the election of a Tory government repels the core of the labour movement, which any serious attempt to build an enduring alternative to the Labour Party needs to relate to. The scope for building the left and working class resistance is, other things being equal, greater under Labour than the Tories.

    As in 1970 and 1979 there’s nothing the left can do to save Labour. But it can ensure that it is not seen to welcome a Tory victory or to conduct itself in a way where the primary result of its efforts is to get more Tory MPs elected.

    I would assume that Socialist Worker will place itself firmly in the anti-Tory camp while, of course, pointing out the truth: that it is Gordon Brown and the Labour leadership who are responsible for the nightmare prospect of a Cameron government. “Vote left where you can, vote Labour where you must” was a slogan which has cut through this dilemma before.

    Third, the wild exaggeration about what this call to stand candidates represents is not conducive to serious discussion. People will get a robust response if they lionise the “social weight” of the RMT, but fail to register that Bob Crow got the same vote across London as Lindsey German of the SWP the year before. We can engage in a discussion about practical co-operation, but it isn’t helped by chest-beating or ultimata.

    Four, there are different conceptions about what we mean by the left. One of the component parts of the putative coalition, for example, is opposed to support for John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn at the election, because they are Labour MPs. Another has stood against one of those two previously. More significantly, most people on the hard left do not consider the Greens as part of the left at all. The putative coalition, and its tiny group of cheerleaders at the Respect conference, have nothing but contempt for left Greens such as Caroline Lucas. Their talk of unity is, in reality, in sectarian opposition to the wider unity that is necessary and possible. Theirs is the binary opposition, and we reject it utterly and when polemicised against will argue back.

    We won’t tie ourselves to such an adventure. When the WRP stood, or the SLP stand, no one serious on the left thought that failure to support them meant you were a sectarian. We can make a convincing case as to why the broader left should actively support George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Abjol Miah at the election. Candidates standing under other names can do exactly the same.

    We will seek co-operation and consider other candidacies case by case, bearing in mind that we, as is true for everybody else, do not have vast resources and will be husbanding those we do have to where we can have maximum effect. If successful, the left as a whole will benefit – even those who don’t think they will or who believe Respect is not on the left.

    All of this is based on the actual electoral performances of various different efforts over the last few years and on an honest assessment of the balance of class forces, the levels of left wing consciousness and the realities of what it means to establish an electoral presence in Britain.

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  70. Not so lost I’d join Respect…or even the Greens…now as for the SWP?…

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  71. As for Kevin Ovenden all he cares about is electoral manoeuvres and rather feeble ones at that.
    The Greens may want to play with Respect for a little, but lets see how things stand after the election.

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  72. Ger’s reply to Neil actually made me fell a little ill. What a terrifying example of machine politics.

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  73. Sorry bout that Duncan. You must have a very sensitive stomach.

    I have just seen Lenin’s reply. I had assumed that the SWP’s traditional position on voting Labour still remained. Apparently not. Can someone from the SWP clarify?

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  74. Bill J, I think you mean that Kevin thinks that it is important for the left to win elections if, when and where it is possible. I doubt he would disagree. Better that than the kidn of excruciating navel-gazing you and Duncan typify.

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  75. David Ellis I’m very optimistic that once the SWP CC have manoeuvred the Left Platform people out of the organisation that these comrades will once again take up politics and return to Respect
    Ah the old jokes are the best. I’m sure Galloway’s rant will convince the SWP that the left are more than welcome in his party.
    As for the upcoming General Election, Respect has once again shown that its primary orientation is to the labour and trade union movement
    No,it’s shown that its primary orientation is towards getting its own leaders elected.

    Kevin Ovenden We can make a convincing case as to why the broader left should actively support George Galloway, Salma Yaqoob and Abjol Miah at the election. I don’t see one being made, other than that they’ve had some electoral support in the past and you wish it to continue. The loss of Respect’s activist base means there is a need for such appeals to be made, but the idea that Respect is four times as large as the rest of the left (based on electoral performance rather than membership) and that support should be given on the basis of your estimate of electablity shows how self-serving and fragile this perspective is.
    I find it difficult to blieve that anyone would confuse this approach with marxism:
    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4885#comment-165016

    Ger Francis (The conferene also unfortunately concided with a 800 strong wedding
    Didn’t this happen last year? Oscar Wilde would say that this is beginning to look like carelessness.

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  76. Wrong Skidders. It coincided with a very large Islam Expo conference that Salma, and others were speaking at.

    Perhaps if you lived in an area with a large Asian population, and were part of a political organisation organically linked to it, you would understand better how marriage, births, deaths and real life have a habit of disturbing even the best laid political plans. But apparently you are not a member of any organization, although this fact not seem to stop you from lecturing the rest of us on how to build one.

    Back to politics. I would really like some clarification about the SWP and calling for a vote Labour. C’mon, Lenin and Johng. It is a genuine question. I know you are out there…

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  77. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Oh, now come on Ger. Skidmarx does indeed live in a city with a large Asian population and did so before his latest move as well. He just chooses to avoid engaging with one of the poorest and most unionized sections of the working class. Instead, he hides in the library and pontificates as though he had an analysis.

    I particularly like his claim to inside information on the current membership and level of organization in Respect. He doesn’t even have a clue about his fellow travellers in the SWP.

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  78. Skiddy: I think you got it wrong, I was talking about the Left Plaform people returning to Respect after they’ve been expelled not the SWP. You know, the people who lead things like Stop the War etc. I reckon outside of the personality warping influences of the sect John Rees might turn out to be a nice fellow.

    Also, as you can see, Respect deals with factions politically not administratively or bureaucratically which is why despite the relatively bruising nature of this very public faction fight nobody has been or needs to be expelled. Thank goodness for the debate I’d say and I’m glad Ian and hopefully Neil will be sticking with the project.

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  79. david – you’re delusional. The majority, epitomised by folks like johng, are much more open to working with Respect than the Left Platform folks who led the split.

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  80. “John Rees might turn out to be a nice fellow”

    I would like to register the strongests possible objection that proposition.

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  81. ger you are so wrong about my position on the Greens. One of the real failures of the left/progressive movement was that five year ago on the founding of Respect with the SWP and many others(you know the “ultra left” George talks about – we and Goerge called it a “coalition” at the time) was that the Green Party rejected all calls for unity and a possible joint coalition or working alliance. This could have transformed politics at that time or at least laid some foundations for the future. The past is the past and we can not change it but I see no change from the Greens as far as a NATIONAL initiative to work with or be part of a united left alternative – one I would welcome.

    The Greens have made one or two local agreements that cost them nothing in order to maximixe votes (decided by a few local members) as have Respect to maximise its votes that has cost us nothing (its not as if we would do well in Brighton is it, and we clearly should back CL). This is my opinion is not the same as Respect and others agreeing on policy and working together in a clear progressive united alliance or even an agreed national non agression pact.

    P.S.Ger – I am not one for walking away from a fight ( it feels just like the Labour Party all over again – the one that kicked Goerge out and called him “ultra left”) so i think you will have to put up with me for a bit longer ( I am not on the NC by the way as I accept my views currently represent a minority view). But dont crow too much as in my opinion there is at least a third of the Respect conference (and many of these were old members who run Respect at local level) who supported and will support the formation of a left alternative to Labour in which Respect could play a full part – you however will ofcourse not accept my asseement.

    I’am not sure after the election any of this will matter. What does matter if its possible (and it may not be in practice) is to try to create a united left organistaion that can take on the Tories and their massive attacks on working people. In the mean time i will do all I can to help elected Respect MP’s, Socialist MP’s and Left Labour MP’s (those that were anti war and anti cuts) and Green MP’s where they stand a resonable chance.

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  82. Osler, in response to the Respect rump’s ‘conference’, has written that ‘the only socialists in the next parliament will be those elected on a Labour Party ticket’.

    Even if Salma, George, and Abjol were elected (I share his suggestion that only Salma has a realistic chance), I think his point remains true.

    I can’t believe I’m thinking this, but I do wonder if there’s any point in remaining outside of Labour any longer. Elsewhere in Europe, socialists have thrived outside. Here, we just bicker.

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  83. As previously stated I am not alone in Respect with my views on Left Unity – this is the position of Socialist Resistance who are a full part of Respect and have been since the beginning – the resistance has begun!

    Socialist Resistance welcomes new electoral coalition.
    At the RMT organised conference on labour representation on Saturday (Nov 7) some of the organisations which had comprised the no2eu campaign during the European elections — the SP, the AGS and the CPB plus Bob Crow and Brian Caton in a personal capacity distributed a leaflet announcing the formation of an electoral coalition for the general election. It does not yet have a name or a platform and will concentrate on standing against cabinet ministers and ex-cabinet ministers.

    Socialist Resistance welcomes this initiative. It facilitates additional left candidates in the general election and contributes to the overall intervention of the left in the election. We will request to become one of its participating organisations as we did with no2eu.

    We urge the organisers, therefore, to go down the road of broader participation as far as its organisational structure is concerned. We urge them to issue an open invitation to all the organisations of the left, and of the trade unions and social movements, to become participating organisations with full rights to participate at all levels.

    For the campaign to succeed maximum participation will be needed. That means full open and transparent democracy should be built into the campaigns both nationally and locally.

    The Socialist Resistance executive committee published this statement on 11 November 2009.

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  84. Neil, there is not a single word in the SR statement at odds with Respect policy before or after the conference.

    Glad to hear you sticking around. Hopefully you will get busy ensuring Respect stand a general election candidate in your area.

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  85. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    Neil, you are still being dishonest when you talk about having the support of 1/3 of the conference. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn to argue honestly.

    What happened was that 1/3 of the vote (not the whole conference, because there were absentions) was to take the motion as an emergency.

    Lots of people – me included – who are active in the labour movement will vote “yes” to take emergency motions not because we support the motion, but on grounds of wanting to have the debate.

    You cannot draw the conclusion that 1/3 of the conference supports your position. The only conclusion you can draw is that you only convinced 1/3 of people that your motion was an emergency.

    The left has a history of deceit and exaggeration. To enlist 1/3 of people as supporters when you have no claim on such a figure is dishonest. You’re better off sticking to the politics: You have a particular perspective which hasn’t won the day. Surely your main focus should be on building Respect where you are, or throwing yourself into building the nearest Respect branch.

    To me, it’s very hollow when people who aren’t doing anything on the ground try to make serious changes in the direction of an organisation. The people who deserve most respect are those who are actually out there, doing something. When you then characterise those who disagree with you as “right-wing” and counterpose them to “socialists”, you reveal the poverty of your politics and the lack of your real involvement with the organisation.

    Throw yourself into it and work with people who disagree with you.

    In the end, whose leaflets will you be delivering in the election? George and Salma’s, or leaflets for another party. Assuming you’ve been building the branch in Milton Keynes, how many people will you take to Poplar to canvass for George?

    Or were you always planning to campaign for a different party? That’s your right, but there really are some sharp choices to be made here: Build the organisation or sit on the sidelines moaning about people trying to get rid of “the socialists” (just like the SWP said).

    If your aim is just to stay in the organisation doing nothing but exaggerating on blogs, you really DO need to ask what the point of being there is. To talk of “resistance” implies that you intend to just cause trouble.

    Argue your politics, debate sharply with people – but do the damned work and help get the left elected so that people can have at least SOME representation in the next parliament.

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  86. I withdraw ‘we just bicker’. Some us us (myself included) worked hard to get votes for what we hoped to be an anti-war enrivonmental socialist coalition. Some of us (myself excluded) are still working. But we’re all getting royally screwed over. Please disagree with the following, if you can.

    Respect are not standing a socialist candidate in a target constituency. The Greens are not standing a socialist candidate in a target constituency. None of the explicitly socialist parties will get a candidate elected. Labour are standing less socialist candidates than ever before.

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  87. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    By the way, contrast the response from Liam and Socialist Resistance with that of you and ID: Liam has fraternal disagreements and cautions against certain styles of debate and discipline. Socialist Resistance welcomes the new coalition but is ploughing on with building Respect.

    Others simply walked away, deleting ALL the emails in the email account, misusing the national mailing list (but removing the names of opponents on the NC) to enlist support for No2EU and generally being obstructive, including leaving the newspaper hanging just as it was supposed to be coming out.

    And on the blogs, you and ID are making shrill claims of a witch-hunt against the left.

    Learn from Socialist Resistance and from people like Liam: They know that the art of an organisation like Respect is to be incredibly flexible, and they are prepared to argue their politics within it as well as outside it. Unlike the SWP, SR is prepared to lose but to then carry on working with fellow members, because we agree on more than we disagree. Liam will be doing his best to help in George’s campaign – even though he may also do stuff elsewhere.

    They provide a good example of how to work in a broad party – unlike those who resigned and tried to disrupt the organisation as they did so.

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  88. Neil

    That’s good to hear. The next batch of campaigning dates will be out for Tower Hamlets shortly, and you’re more than welcome to help out and get a socialist MP elected.

    As for the previous unsuccessful discussions with the Greens; well, they were conducted by the previous management and that’s one reason why they were less successful than what’s been achieved in Manchester and Birmingham (developments which a dogmatic approach over the Euro elections would have scuppered).

    I disagree with your assessment of Respect after the conference. There’s a high level of unity and commitment to a genuine pluralism, of the kind expressed in the permissive motion on the Euro elections passed against schematic opposition. But whatever people thought about how to conduct the debate conference, there’s an overwhelming desire not to allow a handful of people to wreck what we are trying to achieve.

    There’s nothing threatening about that last statement. It’s just an accurate assessment of where we are going and a determination not to be sidelined by irrelevance.

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  89. By that logic, perhaps none of us should have walked away from New Labour!

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  90. Neil Williams ‘The Greens have made one or two local agreements’

    Until the left realises that the Green Party works in a decentralised way and that this form of democracy is a very strong ethos across the party then countless calls for unity to a’ NATIONAL PARTY LEADERSHIP’ is frankly back to front.

    Talk to local Green Parties and members of the Green Party and like minded groups at your first call.

    The Labour Party was not exactly the same – but we know you did not send letters to Walworth Road – you lobbied the local parties for support.

    Takes longer but in the case of Hall Green the members did speak and voted by a majority of 83% and the mandate counts for more.

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  91. […] suprised that on this blog recently, and also on Liam Mac Uaid’s blog, SWP members, including Richard Seymour of Lenin’s Tomb, have been arguing against voting Labour. Ray recently […]

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  92. Ger Francis Wrong Skidders. It coincided with a very large Islam Expo conference that Salma, and others were speaking at.
    OK then I’ll be more precise. Like last year it is claimed that some other event has dragged people away from the conference. Why should this not happen every year? Why is the Respect conference not important enough for it to be a priority for the leadership to be there? Is that because it is just a show when the real decisions are made elsewhere? Last year the excuse was that the ISG had insisted on that date for the “conference”, is that the case again this year[Oh Skidders you’re so ignorant, don’t you know the ISG doesn’t exist any more]?

    Perhaps if…
    Perhaps if you were capable of making a political argument, you wouldn’t make ad hominem attacks your first resort. But then you wouldn’t be typical of the Right Faction of the Respect(minority).

    Dirty Red Bandana – if you want to be threatening, why don’t you just say “I know where you live”?

    David Ellis – You know, the people who lead things like Stop the War etc.
    THe people you spent two years attacking as incompetent lying criminals? Can we discuss the OFFU cheque again please?[Not to be regarded as a serious request]

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  93. Jesus! Get a grip. The only strangers coming around to your house will be posties. More worrying, you are now apparently conversing with your alter-ego. For a man who is neither a member of Respect or the SWP you display a rather unhealthy obsession with both. You might want to keep an eye on that…

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  94. Ger Francis

    “Neil, there is not a single word in the SR statement at odds with Respect policy before or after the conference.”

    A pity George Galloway attacked the very resolutions that Ger is talking about as meaning all things to all people, and having ambiguities in them that would have to clarfied in practice.

    In reality, the acceptance of John Lister’s softening amendments to the original draft NC resolution, which contained no such friendly references to the coalition which had then not been announced, was a manoever by Galloway and co, playing on the political weakness and ineptitude of the ISG, to isolate the hard left in Respect and get the ISG (or at least his leading figures) ‘on side’. Hence Galloway’s praise for Alan Thornett as the only Trotskyist leader he has any respect for.

    In the context of the all-out attack on Communism and Trotskyism by George in that second long, somewhat hysterical speech (which was in some ways amusing, though not in the sense George intended), this praise for the ISG’s main leader by someone engaged in a fairly hysterical rant against allegedly ‘old-fashioned’ and unelectable ideas of class struggle, mass strikes, etc etc, might actually be seen as embarassing. It implies that George knows Alan is now politically house-trained and subservient to his wishes and is giving him a friendly pat on the head in public to highlight that fact.

    In any case, George’s statement about what he says are the inconsistencies of the main NC resolution have a clear meaning and portent. In the process of ‘clarifying’ what the resolutions ‘should’ have said according to George and co, the ISG will either have to knuckle down and grovel to George, Salma and Socialist Action, or face the same kind of denunciation as ourselves. The fracturing of Respect has not finished yet.

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  95. Ger Francis – what alter-ego are you talking about? Actually there are a number of posties that aren’t strangers to me. Once again you show that you would rather engage in abuse rather than answer any questions.
    If I’m not a member of Respect, I’m obsessive if I ask any questions about how it operates. Yet you and your kind spend a lot of time obsessing about the SWP. Or is it because they are much larger than you (except in purely electoral terms,which may be the only measure you care about) then it isn’t such a sign of obsession to comment on their behaviour?
    And given that you’re trying to force your colleagues from Southwark Respect out of the organisation with similar abuse, does it really matter if one is in or out?
    Again, why don’t you try answering questions instead of abandoning your grip on manners and reality?

    From the post – On the general principle that a new party is needed for working people there was no dissent expressed Doesn’t this illustrate the point that the leadership of Respect is prepared to sound left when it is convenient, as long as it means nothing in practice?

    ID – I thought the ISG had now dissolved into SR. Generally, I obviously think you are right about how house-trained GG thinks Thornett’s group is. Didn’t GG do a similar rant about dead Russians last year, albeit less internally directed. All in all, the organisation now seems stuck on Groundhog Day.Not a “broad class struggle organisation at all”.

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  96. “I thought the ISG had now dissolved into SR. ”

    True. My mistake. Only a semantic one, though, in reality.

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  97. So Galloway attacks trotskyists. This is a surprise only to the wilfully naive. He clearly does not want Respect to give the false impression that Respect depends on a coalition of trotskyist microsects. Sound politics on his part.
    He also wants to make sure that Respect’s meetings are not an arena for the microsects to blether about their particular (one true) strategy for the British revolution.

    He has correctly understood that the microsects are stuck in the stagnant puddle of late 20th century British Marxism, where tiny microbes gain sustenance by biting lumps out of each other.
    As the comments on this post clearly demonstrate.

    There is a big world of radical developments out there. Climb out of the puddle.

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  98. Its also because he’s a Stalinist.

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  99. After a bit of thought(something Ger Francis seems unfamiliar with) I realise his comment about an alter-ego referred to my comment about the ISG, designed to forestall him dragging the thread off track by another irrelevant attack. I wonder if I should retreat to a meta-question, is there anything that can be done to get Ger Francis to answer questions rather than side-stepping them.

    aftertrotsky – he still needs them because otherwise the membership of Respect is woefully small.

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  100. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    And there is the problem with Skidmarx. No analysis, no serious argument, just personal invective and smear. Just look at your puking on blog over at Splinty’s. Tell me, Skidmarx, how do you know anything about the Respect membership or branches? What is the scientific basis of your claims?

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  101. This is the SR view on the elections.

    Vote Labour where there’s no left candidate? – Socialist Resistance statement

    “We are in favour of maximizing the left vote in the general election — particularly around candidates who oppose the war, the neoliberal agenda, the cuts and privatisation, and other anti-working class measures.

    “Our preferred option in the general election will be to vote for Respect — preferably as part of a wider coalition created in advance. In the absence of Respect or broad coalition candidates we will call for a vote for other credible socialist or radical left candidates and for left Labour MPs such as Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell as well as Green Party candidates who have platforms to the left of Labour. We welcome the decision of the Greens to stand aside for Salma Yaqoob in Birmingham and will work towards similar arrangements in other constituencies.

    “In Scotland our first preference will be the SSP and in Wales we call for a vote Plaid against new Labour candidates.

    “In order to oppose the far right, and because we cannot advocate an abstention in what is the most important election for a generation, in constituencies where none of the above candidates exists, we call for a vote for Labour.”

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  102. DRB – Tell me, Skidmarx, how do you know anything about the Respect membership or branches?
    A tiny amoount of information is provided officially(though the exaggeration involved does require it is taken with a pinch of salt. And when I say pinch I mean truckload), some of it leaks out when people like Neil or ID expose the official over-optimism. Some extrapolation can be made from where activity is seen and reported and where it is not.
    What is the scientific basis of your claims?
    I like to think it’s marxism, grounded in a good grasp of basic maths.

    And there is the problem with Skidmarx. No analysis, no serious argument, just personal invective and smear. Just look at your puking on blog…mockery of your ridiculous position
    I think your contradictions speak for themselves.

    I think the reason ID &co. want to stay in Respect is because they still see trying to elect Respect MPs as their first priority,like SR, whereas I think that the recent conference is a sign that Respect has become more of an obstacle to left unity than any good it does. Hopefully the situation will be clearer after the election, but it seems clear now that any wider coalition before the elction won’t include Respect, and there’s no reason to think that the yardstick of electability which conveniently includes three Respect candidates and excludes the left is ever going to change, unless a left revival bypasses Respect and they are left playing catch-up.

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  103. Details of another SWP split below. It seems that there’s a bit of a generalised crisis going on.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94807

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  104. Interesting post, Liam. Thanks for the report.

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  105. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    ‘I like to think its Marxism, grounded in a good grasp of basic maths’. Awesome. So does Marxism tell you what temperature it will be from day to day or does it confine itself to divining the membership of Respect? The library tell you all, does it?

    I think you may find that the point of the debate that has just taken place in Respect is that the strategy pursued hitherto was not working and hindered the development of the organization. Matters have now changed and your claims of exaggeration merely speak to your ego.

    It would have been less time consuming to say ‘nothing’ or ‘I’m making it up’ just like the rest of what passes for your analysis.

    On one thing we agree, the coming election and post election shake up will reveal much. The electoral coalition of the left that you speak about is not taking shape. No union has come forth and agreed to participate, the CPB is deeply equivocal and only the SP is pushing the idea (not a criticism, in many ways it is to its credit that it is). Neither the SWP or Respect were invited to be involved. We are too close to the election for things to change without damaging the left challenge

    The reality is a patchwork of different left organizations and candidates with highly local support. This includes Respect and we are looking to support credible left candidates wherever they can challenge. We hope that these left candidates can pose a challenge and some even get elected to help mobilize the opposition to the cuts and war consensus.

    Putting up a fight from now against the consensus is the key task of the left. Once strength of organization is tested and we see the new political climate after the election, cooperation, alliances and even coalitions may be possible.

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  106. BillJ

    “Its also because he’s a Stalinist.”

    Wow, that explains his hostility to the initiatives of Bob Crow and the CPB then!

    I despair of the knee-jerk reactions and lack of analysis of those who have claimed to be ‘left critics’ of Respect over the past period. Even as Respect goes into a major crisis over developments in today’s world, not that of the early 20th century, you get people who have learned nothing and forgotted nothing trying to fit today’s reality into the patters of the 1930s.

    No, GG’s political default is not because he is a ‘Stalinist’.

    Its because, having been pushed leftwards by the great mass movement against the Iraq War, with the evaporation of that mass movement and different political conditions involving recession, social despair and inadquate resistance, he is capitulating to the pressure of lesser evilism and to the war criminal Labour leadership he originally fought against. If anything, his current trajectory more resembles Eurocommunism, though there have to be caveats about even that analogy, due to the different political situation.

    Its got little or nothing to do with ‘Stalinism’. This is the side of ‘Trotskyism’ that deserves to be ridiculed. Complete incapacity to analyse anything contemporary without slapping an obsolete label on it.

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  107. Oops. Forgive the bad spelling. I hope I’m not turning into Andy Newman;-)

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  108. Actually may not be as bad as seems, honest

    SP and AGS will fight as part of son of No2eu. CPB/UPS will at least
    not stand directly agaisnt them. AWL may formally hook up with them

    The CPGB are enamoured with the SWP`s non agression proposals as are, I think, Respect- with everyone standing under their own name

    No one has asked the IWCA, but then no one does. BPP will fight Barrow and that is it. SLP will do what they will do

    All in all, what are we looking at, a capacity to fight 50 english and welsh seats? At very least no clashes, and plenty of work for everyone to do, if we are not chasing around after the 200 odd BNP candidates in antifascist work

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  109. ‘This is the side of ‘Trotskyism’ that deserves to be ridiculed. Complete incapacity to analyse anything contemporary without slapping an obsolete label on it.’

    lol Another irony by-pass….

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  110. “Its also because he’s a Stalinist.”
    “Wow, that explains his hostility to the initiatives of Bob Crow and the CPB then!”

    It may have passed you by by Old Joe killed most of his loyal lieutenants. Compared with the master GGs positively soft core.

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  111. “I like to think it’s marxism, grounded in a good grasp of basic maths.”

    Are you the same Skidmarx whose earlier attempt at number crunching managed to add up to 110%?

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  112. Thanks a million Bill! I’m now stuck with the image of a soft core GG for the rest of the day!

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  113. RobM – yes I am, and I was certainly more than embarrassed at the time. Though when I took my mock ‘O’ Level many years ago, one of only two mistakes I made was to make 1+1 equal to 3. I didn’t notice any of your friends try and put in different figures (or anyone but you notice the error) or put a different spin on the likely consequences of each scenario, just to repeat the mantra “we will win three seats,and that will open all doors to us”. Galloway’s win in 2005 didn’t give Respect a universal impact, at a time when it was backed up by the SWP which has a national presence, why would the extremely unlikely outcome of winning three seats have any impact except in those constituencies (other than to retard the prospects of left unity by making it seem like Respect has a veto on it for another five years)?

    DRB – So does Marxism tell you what temperature it will be from day to day or does it confine itself to divining the membership of Respect?
    No it does not. It doesn’t on its own have such divining power, that’s why I asked some questions above:
    http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/respect-conference-2/#comment-17523
    which you and Ger Francis seem happy to avoid and engage in personal abuse instead.

    your claims of exaggeration merely speak to your ego.
    Maybe I would be better off speaking to id instead.(I think the Galloway Stalinism thing is slightly different from the way you put it,his support for state capitalist and reactionary Arab regimes is a part of it, I think that Eurocommunism is in many ways just stalinism with a small “s”, his rightward shift obviously coincides with the distancing from the SWP, don’t worry you’re not turning into Andy Newman). The exaggeration has been consistent from the claim that Galloway had a majority in Respect, through the idea that the Mile End and Redbridge by-elections would produce victories to the current idea that the Big Three will undoubtedly triumph at the next election. Successes are blown up, failures are never mentioned.
    As to the rest of what you say it is just more unenlightening chunder that sets up a credibility test designed to show Respect as the credible organisation, while ignoring that it does nothing to mobilise against the cuts or the neo-liberal consensus other than to ask people to vote for it.

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  114. “Successes are blown up, failures are never mentioned.”

    Oh the irony.

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  115. To the BNP members who’ve been trying to comment – don’t waste your time. There’s a no platform for racists and fascists policy here.

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  116. Oh the irony.
    What, that all the things you accused John Rees and the SWP of have been duplicitously duplicated by the Galloway faction?
    Do you have a political comment to make, or perhaps an answer to the questions I’ve raised? Or are democracy and openness foreign countries of which you know little and care less?

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  117. Its ABC really (but if you can’t add 1 and 1…).

    Many, perhaps most, organisations on the left are prone to a bit of bigging up successes and not mentioning failures.

    Then there is one organisation which does this so often, with so much cynicism and chutzpah that it takes the breath away.

    Everyone knows of which ‘Party’ I speak. Its the one you grub around the feet of and look upto with such breathless awe.

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  118. Talking of Eurocommun ism, I see the radical feminist scab Bea Campbell has joined the Green Party.

    “You don’t need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows” – Bob Dylan.

    Recall the 1984-5 miners strike, when she said that the conflicts between miners and the police were just two groups of macho men slugging it out.

    The trajectory of those who are so enamoured of the Greens and so hostile to the trade union left becomes ever clearer.

    Bea Campbell has more in common politically and ideologically with Maggie Thatcher than she does with the left. A party that attracts people like her sucks royally.

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  119. ID: “Bea Campbell has more in common politically and ideologically with Maggie Thatcher than she does with the left. ”

    !!!!!!

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  120. Well, look at the hostility of these people to the miners during the decisive class battle of the late 20th Century.

    That view was common currency at the time of the miners strike. These people hated the NUM and everything it stood for. Ideologically, the hardc-core Euros were simply scabs. The fact that Andy thinks this controversial says a lot about his own Eurocommunist evolution – a long way away from class politics.

    Andy is indeed a latter-day example of a similar drift. He praised Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling for their handling of the credit crunch. They also have much in common with Thatcher and their government has been unflinching in defender the ‘gains’ Thatcher achieved for the bosses against the working class.

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  121. “The trajectory of those who are so enamoured of the Greens and so hostile to the trade union left becomes ever clearer”.

    Ian, that’s such a daft suposition, and what we might call in the trade, talking a load of bollocks.

    I’ll put down to you drinking too much coffee.

    However, you last point
    “A party that attracts people like her sucks royally”
    Its just a bit of a stinker really

    My experience from working with the Greens over the years is that this party contains many ‘refugees’ from the British left, who repelled by its dogmatism, and eternal truths found it too restrictive and destructive, and found a better home in the Green Party. They remain socialists, they are active trade unionists.
    Comments such as yours, just confirm the reasons that they left, the so-called ‘Left’

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  122. A feeble and subjective response. I suppose what I said was a little intemperate and a one-sided. But anyone who does not hate Bea Campbell and everything she stands for has something missing as a socialist. To misquote Groucho Marx; I wouldn’t want to be in a party that could accept her as a member.

    If a party I was in began to attract people like that, then I would be very uncomfortable. I suppose some don’t have long enough memories of the fact that these people not only helped Thatcher defeat and isolate the miners, but also celebrated in lengthy discourse the defeat of ‘outdated’ ideas about the progressive role of the working class and trade unions that Thatcher’s victories allegedly brought about. They were the theoreticians for Kinnock, in turn ploughing up the ground for Blair.

    Bea Campbell and her ilk are enemies of the workers movement. A quaint, old-fashioned phrase, some smart-aleck ‘moderniser’ will no doubt say. Maybe even a bit ‘Stalinist’ – as if the Euros were not the ultimate degenerate, anti-working-class residue left behind after the destruction of the official communist movement.

    But in this case, it is simply true. And people like her are to a much larger extent than any far left group responsible for demoralising and defeating working class militants. If the Greens had any sense at all, they would tell her and her ilk to go forth and multiply. Unfortunately, they don’t have a clue, or if they do, they could not care less.

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  123. If a party I was in began to attract people like that, then I would be very uncomfortable.

    I think you’ve just condemned yourself to a life of political vagrancy, tearing up one membership card after another.

    The Green Party attracts some people I’m uncomfortable with. Labour attracts a lot of people I’m uncomfortable with. Even RESPECT attracts some people I’m uncomfortable with – and if I knew enough about it I’d probably conclude that Socialist Resistance attracts some people I’m uncomfortable with.

    All very sad, but not politically decisive.

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  124. RobM – Its the one you grub around the feet of and look upto with such breathless awe.
    I guess if you want to engage in abuse rather than discuss or analyse the politics of Respect there’s nothing I can do to stop you.

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  125. “I think you’ve just condemned yourself to a life of political vagrancy, tearing up one membership card after another.”

    Well, given the state of the left of the moment, such may be an honourable life compared to being a ‘pragmatic’ and ‘realistic’ political hack. Compared with those who for reasons of ‘political realism’ (in other words, opportunism) tolerate all kinds of crap – thereby giving politics a very bad name indeed among the wider working class.

    I guess much of the working-class public agrees with me on this, given the widespread alienation and contempt for politics and politicians that exists, and is largely justified.

    Its one thing to ‘tolerate’ flawed people who nevertheless have aims that roughly coincide with your own. Its quite another to tolerate people who simply hate the working class. And that’s what characterises the likes of Bea Campbell, and is the key to their politics. They hate the working class.

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  126. Given that it is a commonplace that the largest group on the left consists of ex-SWP members, you have a lot of company.
    Bea Campbell did actually appear for the prosecution in “The Trial of Margaret Thatcher”, but I’d tend to agree with you about her, it is perhaps something that links in to Galloway’s rant that often we should judge people’s attitude to the left when they aren’t trying to make friends.

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  127. Ian says:
    ‘I guess much of the working-class public agrees with me on this.’

    Is this a joke? Really, is this what you meant? Out of interest, Ian, what country/ year do you think we’re in?

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  128. Ian: I do think you are being a bit formal about all this. Yes, for me the Greens are the sort of more direct inheritors of the sects that did for the First International in the Bakunin mould and I wasn’t overly impressed by the horse-trading that appeared to be going on during the Euro elections. Good that the Greens have agreed not to stand against Salma (will they stand against the other two candidates, anybody?) as a result though I’m not sure if it will make too much difference. However, the main thing is that Galloway’s intervention at the conference put an end to developing or re-emerging sectarian moods and forces both of the type that are interested in a Green lash up, and those interested in other sectarian follies (and they have proved to be that), by making a decisive political intervention. He firmly oriented Respect to the Labour and Trade Union movement by making it clear that outside of working for its own candidates and giving moral support to a handful of others, including a couple of Greens, Respect is unequivocally for the return of a labour government. Debates around the Greens will no doubt continue and rightly so but I think the issue can now be discussed fraternally within Respect and, for the time being, as a quite distant secondary issue given the decisive turn to the labour movement made at the conference.

    I think the left’s role in Respect now, apart from being the most exemplary supporters of the three candidates, is to develop a transitional programme for the forth coming election that goes beyond mere anti-war, anti-cuts vagueness, which puts some meat on the bones and which emphasises the question of power.

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  129. ID – so if Bea Campbell had stood as a candidate of the CP on the programme of the British Road to Socialism you would presumably have voted for her because although BC is a rightwing and the BRS is reformist rubbish, she would be standing for the CP which is a working class political party?

    But if she were to stand now as a right wing candidate in a weak area for the Green Party and there was no Socialist candidate, you would advocate abstaining rather than Galloway’s position, which would presumably be to vote for the Labour candidate against the Tory?

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  130. Is Galloway still going to stand in Mile End given that he has no credible chance of winning and the only effect he might have on the outcome is to let another Tory in?

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  131. No skidmarx, he’s not standing in Mile End.

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  132. Skiddy: how venal you are. In terms of Labour candidates standing against Respect this is pure sectarianism/opportunism on their part. The communities that Respect is seeking to represent see being against the Blair/Brown crusades, opposed to Israeli colonialism, etc as an existential question not just some moral nicety. For them there is no longer an option to continue to rub along with the labour and tu bureaucracy which lives off imperialist crumbs and hopes for some to come their way. When the next tranche of cuts is announced, by whichever government, to pay off the bankers and prop up the pound they will eventually be joined by millions of other workers which is why Respect is oriented towards them and is orienting hard-pressed minority communities towards them whilst at the same time demanding socialist policies.

    Incidentally, it is not enough to simply be against the cuts because if the cuts aren’t made the pound will collapse and there will be hyper-inflation on the back of quantative easing and its being abandoned by the international markets. A transitional programme that poses the question of power and outlines an alternative future is needed because whilst it is necessary that the working class does not accept the burden of the proposed cuts is musn’t simply cynically pass them on to others without offering a future otherwise those forces will turn elsewhere.

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  133. […] example, on Liam Mac Uaid’s blog: liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/respect-conference-2/; on Andy Newman’s Socialist Unity site: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4884; on Dave Osler’s […]

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  134. Friendly lefty

    If you don’t think the working class public thinks politicians are cynical, self-seeking and lack principles, then you ought to get out more.

    As to Bea Campbell standing on the CPGB’s BRS programme, that was an unlikely scenario, she was more likely to be standing on the programme of the SDP/Gang of Four in the period Prinkipo Exile was talking about. She is joining the Greens because they are not a working class party – that is why she likes them.

    And David Ellis, no, I don’t think the Greens have much in common with Michael Bakunin and co – though some around their lefty fringe may do. As an aggregate, they have more in common with their brethren across the Irish Sea – enforcing austerity and attacking the workers in the interest of capitalism – as will be seen if the opportunity arises for them to get their hands on power.

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  135. TFL – I believe Jim Fitzpatrick’s constituency covers Mile End.

    David Ellis – “venal”,really,is that the best you can do? Your insults don’t even make any sense any more. Don’t you have some sort of Respect Comment Generator that produces abuse that at least matches dictionary definitions of the words you’re using?
    In terms of Labour candidates standing against Respect this is pure sectarianism/opportunism on their part.
    I see. Anyone who stands against Respect, even if they have a much greater chance of winning, is a sectarian/opportunist. You could go on a course to improve your basic English, and I think you need it.

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  136. When the next tranche of cuts is announced, by whichever government, to pay off the bankers and prop up the pound they will eventually be joined by millions of other workers which is why Respect is oriented towards them and is orienting hard-pressed minority communities towards them whilst at the same time demanding socialist policies.
    It’s not oriented towards millions of workers, it’s oriented towards voters in three constituencies.
    It isn’t orienting minority communities towards millions of workers, it does nothing to involve its supporters in class organisation.
    Socialist policies like the anti-democratic campaign for a mayoral system in Tower Hamlets? You make me laugh.

    Meanwhile, on a thread ostensibly about the Respect conference, there are still no answers to questions like:
    Were the delegates actually delegated?
    Is Galloway’s rant about dead Russians/Trotskyists going to be a recurring fixture?
    Are there always going to be excuses as to why the conference was smaller than hoped?
    Who thinks Kevin Ovenden’s statement :
    There’s a high level of unity and commitment to a genuine pluralism has any basis in reality?

    Of course if you’d prefer to continue hurling mindless abuse that’s your prerogative.

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  137. `It’s not oriented towards millions of workers, it’s oriented towards voters in three constituencies.
    It isn’t orienting minority communities towards millions of workers, it does nothing to involve its supporters in class organisation.’

    We will have to beg to differ. By unequivocally stating that it is for the return of a Labour government I believe it is orienting both itself, and the minority communities where it has a foothold, towards the multi-millioned working masses and their political and trade union organs so that it can politically take on the opportunist, pro-war, imperialist, job-destryoing, welfare -cutting, banker-loving scum that sit atop it like a huge dead weight.

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  138. Skiddy – the historic Mile End area is almost entirely in the new Bethnal Green & Bow parliamentary constituency. Mile End tube station is however just inside the boundary of the new Poplar & Limehouse constituency but only by a few yards (the boundary passes through the middle of the road in front of the tube station and runs only a few hundred yards along the Mile End road).

    The old parliamentary constituency of Mile End, represented in 1945 by a communist party member Phil Piratin, is almost entirely contained in current day BG&B. You can find an 1885 Mile End map on the internet, and modern day electoral boundaries are at electoral dash boundaries dot co dot uk, if you wish to compare them.

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  139. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    He doesn’t want to do any of that, of course. He’s doing his usual sneery baiting thing. And no one took him up on it!

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  140. Prinkipo Exile – thanks for the information. Of course if I’d just said Poplar & Limehouse in the first place this digression wouldn’t have taken place.

    External Obsession – by sneery baiting thing I assume you mean asking questions of “Respect” other than from a fawning standpoint. It shows how the majority of “Respect” has fallen into a pit of self-delusion that you would rather engage in abuse than debate.

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  141. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    We all know you are hostile to Respect . As with most of your claims and information, these questions are just dull diversionary tactics aimed at derailing discussion and debate. Note the bull about Mile End.

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  142. Poor old skidders

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  143. Today Socialists are facing a challenge that requires responses, leadership and unity. Articles by the yard appear regularly in the Left press about the need for a new form of unity and initiatives that need to be taken. Our duties are regularly being spelt out column by column.

    However we are told that there are sensitive negotiations being undergone, serious discussions occuring and plans underfoot. In the mean time, unemployment is rising, fascists are gaining confidence and reactionary forces are attempting to establish for themselves a foothold.

    The domestic and international scene provides immense challenges and opportunities for Socialists. The audience is awaiting whilst the Left are thinking about what to do. Yes it is time to assert ourselves and to show what we are capable of instead of dithering around patiently grappling with the present conditions.

    Socialists have a responsibility now to make every effort in pulling down the barriers that we have put up ourselves in order to face up to our responsibilities. We cant wait for some gradual breakthrough to occur. We need to make sure this happens now before we lose another opportunity.

    That does not mean another “unprincipled bloc” is presented to the working class, leading to one more so-called Messiah turning his/ her back on the movement when it suits them. For one, they do not exist and for another they do not provide the answers.

    Instead we need to rely on our own self-confidence, learn from our own mistakes and remember our own history. It is about building on the strengths of our best traditions and building new traditions for future generations. We owe this to those who are suffering under this Capitalist system of exploitation, oppression, racism and imperialist wars.

    The prospects of the forthcoming General Election are such that we can not be dilettantes in this matter. There is much work to do. Our time and resources are separately limited yet together, our capacity and potential is far greater to achieve our common goal.

    So in reality what do we have to do? Yes let us spell it out in such a way that we can agree.

    1.Joint meetings at local , regional and national level for members, supporters and interested parties to discuss, plan and organise. Pull the walls down now and reduce the opportunities for petty sectarianism to hold us back.
    2. Agree a joint programme which we all can adopt, whether it be around areas such as the People’s Charter , anti-fascism/ anti-racism , opposing British presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, trade union rights, People before Profits, Eco-Socialist policies, sexual politics and many other campaigning issues.
    3.Joint statements and policies to be adopted in each others papers, magazines and websites.
    4.Agree a common strategy around the election without counterposing one set of initiatives to another.
    5.Recognising and welcoming maximum debate and new ideas , respecting differences and not personalising them.

    In effect we need to adopt a formula that enables us to promote a move towards unity without compromising principles. I realise for some, old habits die hard and this will be totally unpalatable. In fact some may even describe this as opportunistic, popular frontist, political suicide, etc. Well to those people I say your time came and went without anyone noticing your presence.

    Yet our audience calls on us to recognise our responsabilities and to act accordingly. Learn the lessons from France, Portugal, Greece, Germany. Learn the lessons from initiatives in various parts of South America. Look at the new initiatives emerging where the Left, Greens, Eco Socialists, students, women, gays, trade unionists, ethnic, religious and other social / community based groups come together.

    Whilst others hesitate and take a gradual gently gently approach, we need to look to ourselves and call on all organisations and remind them that they need to urgently review initiatives. Those waiting for this to happen may not wait very long and either give up, get disillusioned or move on. We can not afford this.

    I have purposely not named organisations or initiatives as there are so many. I apologies in advance for missing any out for the purpose of writing this. It is not deliberate and there is no hidden agenda. Yet I look around and ask at meetings, rallies and demos where is the Left, where are the banners? Yes much is going on and many are active on many initiatives but we must ensure that the few do not get burnt out. There is too much to do and the old ways of doing it needs to be urgently reviewed, to say the least.

    The least I hope is that this encourages readers to put pressure on others to speed up what ever negotiations are taking place and to make them the property of the rank and file, rather than a debate amongst the various leadership levels.

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  144. An excellent contribution Alf one I enjoyed reading and agree with.

    There will be many who reject working in an open and democratic way in any new Left alliance/coalition seeing their own “project” as the only way forward. I believe like you that there are many people who would group around a new initiative like son of NO2EU (they really must get a good name soon) provided it had strong political and trade union support beyond just one or two groups. And I also agree its a pity its all taking so long now we are so close to the election.

    It is to be hoped that any new Left alliance would also work with and campaign for other left/progressive candidates who have a real chance of success in Respect/Greens/Left Labour (such as Jeremy Corbyn and others) and independents like Dai Davis Audrey Wise etc.

    Its important to remember however that its not just about winning elections after five months or whatever (any candidate would be lucky to get 5%) its about wether the foundations can be laid for an organisation that can take the fight to the Tories (or new Labour) when they win the election and attack everthing we value. In the struggle that will follow the support for such a new left organisation will depend on its ability to be at the spear head of any resistence.

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  145. […] example, on Liam Mac Uaid’s blog: liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/respect-conference-2/; on Andy Newman’s Socialist Unity site: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4884; on Dave Osler’s […]

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  146. Neil Williams – sadly Audrey Wise passed away some nine years, but I presume you meant her daughter Valerie who declared as an independent candidate in Preston some six months ago, though despite her campaign being run by the SWP through Michael Lavalette, we have yet to see much evidence of a serious challenge, not even a meeting called of her supporters.

    We can all sympathise with the notion of creating left unity of the type put forward by Alf, but to date the SonofNo2EU grouping has yet to tell anyone what it is doing. We do know that the ‘core group’ is meeting shortly and doubtless can expect them to tell the rest of us when and where to go along and support them.

    In the meantime the only people actually doing anything concrete and open about left unity are Respect members in Wigan who have set up an alliance involving Respect

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  147. the Community Action, the SP, the SWP and the Greens. Apart from this exemplary step from members of Respect, the rest of the left outside Respect appears to be deaf to your pleas. One can hope that it changes, but maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere that you can ponder?

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  148. The “core group” says of its intentions:

    “The Core Groups involved in the discussions that have taken place to build such a Left/TU Coalition – SP; RMT; AGS; CPB –
    are meeting on November 25 to suggest a name and to start the
    discussion on the core policies”

    Which one could translate as “we’ll meet and tell everyone else what the plan is.” That’s one way to motivate people to get involved.

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  149. alf

    what are you planning to do when you leave school?

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  150. Yes I did mean “Valerie wise”.

    Liam: Socialist Resistance are supporting the formation of a new Left of Labour alliance/coalition – its on the front page of their web site.

    Andy: (was that really you?) hardly a constuctive comment to Alfs very resonable post.

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  151. Neil the statement did welcome the arrival of the new coalition. It also said

    “We urge the organisers, therefore, to go down the road of broader participation as far as its organisational structure is concerned. We urge them to issue an open invitation to all the organisations of the left, and of the trade unions and social movements, to become participating organisations with full rights to participate at all levels.”

    That’s not quite the same as having a “core group” sort things out first.

    Socialist Resistance welcomes new electoral coalition

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  152. It might not be ideal, but it is nowhere near as bad as ruling out entirely pacts with ‘communists and Trotskyists’ on the grounds that people with such views are an ‘electoral liability’.

    The first is a little bureaucratic, but could concievably be simply a reaction to the lamentable record of organisational sectarianism of some on the far left and a desire to stop the project being aborted by such antics before it gets properly off the ground. The second is definitely not a reaction to sectarianism, but an major step to the right, ruling out co-operation not with particular organisations who have records of stupidity, but with left-wing trends in general for reasons of electoral opportunism.

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  153. DRB & norwich ladho – you are so right that by asking awkward questions I am derailing discussion and debate. Only you both have me mistaken for someone else.

    The core of what Alf said appears to be that local groups should come together to organise jointly prior to any agreement being made nationally. A laudable thought , though if internet discussions are anything to go by thhat might just be a recipe for more sectarian headbanging, if it is not the case that it is conservative leaderships holding back unity that memberships really want.

    ID – perhaps Respect should be re-named “Clover”- “It’s good to be in the middle”.

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  154. The core of what I said is that comrades need to discuss without awaiting top down decisions, which is the essence of Socialist democracy.
    Any discussion is good and whether it is initiated at the top or by the rank and file does not matter. In fact even better if it comes from the base.
    We need discussion, agreement and action, not long drawn out negotiations going nowhere.
    If it helps put pressure on others to speed up talks and to be aware that it is the ordinary members and independents which will take the movement forward then even better.
    Perhaps for too long we have awaited the leadership to move and wonder why we are let down by individuals, time and time again.
    We dont need sectarian comments or excuses, we need agreement and a programme around action that is principled and that can unite the movement. Maybe we have waited too long for “sensitive negotiations” in order not to upset too many egos.

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  155. Alan Thornett’s assessment is here.

    An assessment of the Respect conference

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  156. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Oh, of course, everyone is wrong about poor Skidmarx and his valiant attempts to fight for justice on the left. The trouble with those that hide behind their nom de plumes to spread sceptical bile without contributing to debate is that their egos override all else.

    You need to look at your outpourings over the last few weeks and the hints you provided. It is so easy to belief your own mythology and to refer to yourself as though to someone else.

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  157. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Thanks Liam for the link to Alan’s piece. This is very interesting and I think there is much that is good in his argument. There is a problem of failing to recognize Galloway’s point (which, I suspect, is partly the product of the way that Galloway articulated himself in the debate), which was that we must caution against moving Respect back into the electoral ghetto that is the far left. The Left List debacle in London and the NO2EU Euro campaigns were examples of this ghetto (though in differing ways). That is what I took it to mean, anyway.

    While I think Alan has taken Galloway’s argument out of context, his conclusions and call to the incoming National Council are good and I certainly feel that there will be some good cases where left candidates not placed to win remain credible and Respect should give its support. I suspect this may include one or two CP or SP candidates.

    Finally, the point about the Greens is well made but while the Green Party will not join a ‘new workers party’ or electoral coalition, it will benefit the broader left if we can build on the current cooperation in the longer term. I fear Alan may be overegging the extent to which ‘hard’ left unity is possible and achievable.

    Respect is making strides in the direction of building cooperation and agreement in the wider left. Its just that it is unlikely to include the leftovers of the former strongholds of British left of Labour politics.

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  158. Dirty Red Bandana “There is a problem of failing to recognize Galloway’s point (which, I suspect, is partly the product of the way that Galloway articulated himself in the debate), which was that we must caution against moving Respect back into the electoral ghetto that is the far left.”

    Its ironic that this is just how most in the Labour Party including the left of the Labour Party see Respect “in the getto that is the far left”. Now ofcourse they use this as a form of abuse (as does George Galloway) to avoid political discussion with us so its amazing that you and George are happy to use the same language concerning all who are to the left of New Labour and indentify themselves as Socialists.

    Alan’s article is confirmation that there were many at the Respect conference (perhaps up to 1/3) who disagreed with George/Salma and the majority about the way forward. I think events will tell us a lot more than words in the near fututre.

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  159. “Respect is making strides in the direction of building cooperation and agreement in the wider left. Its just that it is unlikely to include the leftovers of the former strongholds of British left of Labour politics.”

    Yeah right, the trade union left, Militant/SP and the Communist Party really are the “leftovers of the former strongholds of British left of Labour politics.” Likewise the RMT, the prison officers union, you name it … raving ultralefts and toytown Bolsheviks the lot of them.

    Actually they are not. They are organic parts of mainstream left social democracy. Militant was deeply involved in Labour and an organice part of its left for decades; the CP’s strategy for even more decades has been to reclaim Labour and support the Labour left, both from the outside and the inside through influencing left wing Labour figures. George Galloway in particular knows the latter trend very well – he was once part of it. Both these currents have shifted away from this at different speeds, but for a common reason – the fact that Labour is now manifestly un-reclaimable, even to those who believed for a very long time that this was the strategy.

    It is not some ultra-left current that DRB is writing off, but the key remaining left-reformist working-class trends in British politics. The logic of this nonsense is to condemn John McDonnell and the remaining hard left in Labour as ‘ultra-left’ also. And guess what …. Andy Newman for one already has do so already!

    This concept is consistent, though, with George Galloway’s statment that the British working class has been ‘unmade’. I.e. that it is dead as a force able to struggle for social change. If you believe that, then why not build a ‘rainbow coalition’ with Greens and left-Blairities like Jon Cruddas? Why not shun the mainstream trade union/Labour/ex-Labour left in favour of non-working class forces?

    This is just warmed over Eurocommunism. New Times indeed. Times when the working class has been ‘unmade’.

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  160. Thornett ends:
    The task for Respect, and its newly elected NC, following the conference, is the implementation resolutions adopted by conference. These were very good and wide ranging — from electoral reform to free public transport — and provide an excellent basis for the election campaign as well as guidance as to how Respect relates to any new left alliances which might emerge whether it is a successor to no2eu or anything else at local or national level.

    At the same time Respect needs to prepare to defend the working class against attacks launched by either Labour or the Tories either before or after the election.
    The first paragraph would seem to ignore what happened at the conference, wishing paper resolutions to be put into practice and ignoring the way the leadership can cast them aside whenever they wish. On the second paragraph, what is Respect going to do given that it appears to have no industrial strategy and is almost entirely focussed on elections?

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  161. Skidmarx: “Only you both have me mistaken for someone else.”

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  162. ID: “Actually they are not. They are organic parts of mainstream left social democracy.”

    It’s a pity then that they could not do any better electorally than the lunatic ultra left tactics of the SWP’s “Left List” in London and fell behind Scargill’s sectarian and irrelevant outfit everywhere, isn’t it?

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  163. Prinkipo Exile

    If you like i can give the the figures but NO2 EU (just Google them) which was weeks old old did better in the Euro elections than the Green Party (or its predecessor) did in their first Euro elections. We all agree its was a bloody aweful name and lets hope a new name is a lot better – give it two elections (five years) and then you will have a right to judge it but I for one will not judge its success just on elections won or lost – can it act as a pole of attraction to the resistance to the cuts after the elction by either a Tory or a New Labour government – this is the key.

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  164. Ian and Neil: you do seem to have gotten into a complete and unnecessary funk over all this.

    Look, some wanted to support the sectarian Greens in the Euros in the hope either that they would beat the BNP or of some future consideration. Had the Greens wanted to stop the BNP they would have withdrawn themselves and not put up a left candidate that could take labour votes. But anyway, at least they aren’t going to stand against Salma. Others wanted to see what was happening with the NO2EU lot but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib rather than presenting an opportunity to broaden the left challenge to labour at the next election. There is no `son of NO2EU’ and the SP and the CPB are as self-serving as any other sect. Get over it. That ship has sailed. It is not serious. Respect is now geared to the labour and trade union movement and the millions of workers who will be voting labour and that is good.

    More worrisome for me is that the radical left in Respect did not get at least one candidate of their own standing under the Respect banner and that there does not seem to be a serious attempt to develop a transitional programme to juxtapose to New Labour’s general election manifesto. Instead we get nonsense about electoral reform and free buses.

    Yes, Respect’s position on the war and Israel does not need improving much but where is the stuff that we should be putting forward about nationalisation of the banks, occupation of factories, nationalisation of the robber utility companies, the monopoly retailers and other multi-nationals, anti-cuts committees, sliding scale of wages, sharing the work, etc. etc. That is what we should be working on and concentrating on whilst doing exemplary work to get Respect’s candidates elected. It would be a shame if the left in Respect was to now adopt the SWP’s pragmattic approach to programme in exchange for an easy life and the promise of some future kudos. It doesn’t work like that. The non-sectarianism is in making practical agreements with others for specific ends, dropping the programme or not developing it is just opportunism.

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  165. DELETED – if people want to carry on an argument from another site do it elsewhere – LIAM

    Liam – if you think this is an unwarranted personal attack you are welcome to delete it if you also delete those that preceded it. Personally I’d rather discuss the devolution of Respect than respond to the abuse that must be embarrassing to any thinking member of Respect, further making a mockery of the name.

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  166. Respect is now geared to the labour and trade union movement
    This is a fantasy. Respect probably has less name recognition than at the last election, reflected in its three strikes and we’re out strategy for this one.Where anyone has heard of it it isn’t even seen as a far left sect, it’s seen as a communal Muslim organisation.Overlaying its core values with the odd denuciation of capitalism does not magic it into a pole of attraction to the Left of Labour, its activism is solely directed towards its own electoral performance and not to strengthening working class organisation. Galloway’s denuciation of the left fits in with its development since the split into a middle of the road electoral party and no amount of bluster is going to change that. For the left outside SR in Respect (if Thornett’s comment that The left, and Respect as a part of it, has a responsibility to provide an alternative to the widest possible spectrum of the electorate as is possible is anything to go by, SR still seems to be more tied to electoralism than to socialism) it may be inconvenient that this Eurocommunist direction is an inevitable part of what Respect has become, but it’s the truth.

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  167. “Respect is now geared to the labour and trade union movement and the millions of workers who will be voting labour and that is good.”

    No, it isn’t. It’s calling on the working class to vote for strikebreakers and privatisers, against socialists and class conscious trade union militants. A great many of those who refuse to vote Labour do so for reasons that are class based, and many of those who do vote Labour do so because they prefer a slightly ‘nicer’ form of Toryism to the full-on version. This is the strategy of Kinnock, Blair and Brown, of appealing to anti-union middle class voters by showing that they are as anti-union as the Tories. That was New Labour’s election-winning strategy. What’s remotely class conscious about that?

    This is a classic example of a genuinely sectarian point of view, simply copied from a ‘Trotskyist’ textbook that is approximately seventy years old and completely irrelevant to today’s social and political reality. The Labour Party today is a cross-class party, a party of the rich that fights for the interests of the wealthy while tieing trade unions to that aim, not in any sense a party of the workers.

    This is an example of biblicism, politics learned from decades old texbooks without any analysis of the real world in the here and now. Its the kind of nonsense that gives ‘Marxism’ a bad name among thinking militants, that makes us look like an ancestor-worshipping cult. No thanks.

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  168. Prinkipo Exile

    “It’s a pity then that they could not do any better electorally than the lunatic ultra left tactics of the SWP’s “Left List” in London and fell behind Scargill’s sectarian and irrelevant outfit everywhere, isn’t it?”

    So are you seriously arguing that these forces are not the forces of mainstream left reformism?

    Actually, I don’t consider the SWP’s ‘Left List’ tactic to have been ultraleft at all. It was a foolish tactic, because it was based on the illusion that they would be able to mop up much of Respect’s support by contending for that support under that name, but ultraleft it was not. It was cynical electoral posturing, but it was not motivated by any excess of revolutionary fervour or anything like that.

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  169. Blimey ID, you really do live in your own little world don’t you? Good luck making sense of it all without the `textbooks’ as you so disparigingly call them. Forward to unfettered experimentation!

    Compare skidwards rant to yours: they seem convergent.

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  170. It was Lenin, not Trotsky, who set out the basic Marxist understanding of the Labour Party and its relationship to the working class and Trade Union bureaucracy, and it was nearly 90 years ago, not 70 years ago.

    Not that we should be dogmatic about these things of course 😉

    Latterly, it was Milliband (Senior) who gave us a useful summary of the track record of the Labour Party in power in his book “Parliamentary Socialism”. And just to remind everyone, it was Attlee, Wilson and Callaghan rather than Blair and Brown who were the first Labour prime ministers to be strikebreakers and privatisers, not to mention imperialist warmongers sending their troops to fight foreign wars in other countries.

    plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose …

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  171. Although with hindsight maybe I’m being soft on Ramsey Macdonald, but at least he could argue he didn’t have a parliamentary majority.

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  172. David Ellis

    “Good luck making sense of it all without the `textbooks’ as you so disparigingly call them. ”

    How to miss the point! You need to be able to analyse reality as it is today, not rely on things that were written in different historical conditions to tell you what to do in today’s historical conditions. Its the difference between applying a method, and quoting holy writ. One very good quote from Lenin is ‘there is no such thing as abstract truth – truth is always concrete”. You are using the statements of Lenin, Trotsky etc as abstract truth.

    Prinkipo Exile

    “It was Lenin, not Trotsky, who set out the basic Marxist understanding of the Labour Party and its relationship to the working class and Trade Union bureaucracy, and it was nearly 90 years ago, not 70 years ago.”

    Actually, Lenin’s analysis was based on the conditions that existed when he wrote Left-Wing Communism. However, it is foolish to say that Lenin’s analysis stands for all time – reality needs to be constantly re-analysed to make it concrete. Lenin was not able to analyse even the first Labour government at any length, not least because it coincided with his stroke and paralysis – leading to death. Trotsky came up with analyses that had considerable merit in the late 1920 and early 1930s. However, social forces move on, and have to be analysed anew.

    By the way, this has nothing to do with any contempt for ‘Dead Russians’. Its not them I’m attacking, its those who treat them like infallible oracles and mechanically apply their views on conditions decades ago, to today’s conditions. Better to learn the method they used than parrot their words.

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  173. Prinkipo

    “it was Attlee, Wilson and Callaghan rather than Blair and Brown who were the first Labour prime ministers to be strikebreakers and privatisers,”

    Strikebreakers in some cases, true. But privatisers?

    What nonsense!!! What did they privatise, then?

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  174. ID – what do you think the coming election will do to this Eurocommunist perspective?[Personally I’d place the rightward shift much earlier, possibly back to the 2005 election when Galloway chose to rely on community leaders to mobilise the vote in Bethnal Green].I would have thought that if any of the Respect candidates are elected that would be used as a further excuse to marginalise the far left and claim that Respect on its own,or possibly with some deal with the Greens, is the credible radical alternative, and far from being a fortress to mobilise against the cuts it will be an obstacle to left unity for another five years. If none are chosen the final decline of Respect is likely to be precipitated, but not before a long death agony is played out.
    What do you think?

    LIam – I see you have left the abuse directed at me and at someone not even involved in this discussion. Is that considered OK because it originated here.?DRB’s comment about children’s books is carried over from a discussion on http://www.splinteredsunrise.wordpress.com so I don’t feel you’re being particularly consistent in the application of your powers. And if one can’t call out Andy Newman for his behaviour on his own blog or here, where would you suggest doing it?

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  175. Skidmarx

    “I would have thought that if any of the Respect candidates are elected that would be used as a further excuse to marginalise the far left and claim that Respect on its own,or possibly with some deal with the Greens, is the credible radical alternative, and far from being a fortress to mobilise against the cuts it will be an obstacle to left unity for another five years.”

    I’d say that this is a disturbing possibility, now that Galloway et al have nailed their Eurocommunist colours to the mast. On the other hand, there could be a healthy reaction if other left unity initiatives begin to make traction. I don’t think Respect is uniformly sectarian – I think a lot of people are being taken in by demagogy at this point, which could be exposed by events. But the portents are not good, it is quite possible that the clearly neo-Eurocommunist trend that now leads Respect could play a destructive role.

    Indeed, with allegations like that No2EU ‘let in the BNP’, arguably it is already playing a destructive role.

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  176. Not ‘neo’ ID, in my case entirely unashamedly Eurocommunist. Don’t forget your coat on the way out.

    Mark P

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  177. Ian, you appear to have joined Skidward’s one-man Wreckspect operation which he has been continuing long after others have forgotten. That is not good. Skidmarx’s world is one you do not want to enter.

    Yes it is possible that a bunch of eurocommunists could lead Respect into the dead end of becoming some sort of Muslim party detached from the wider labour movement leading to the isolation of the communities they claim to represent so that they can be picked off by the fash. But all things come with dangers. Yes, another section might sell Respect’s sole to the Green sectarians and render it irrelevant in that way but it is equally true that Respect could become entangled in fantasies such as the now defunct Son of No2EU lot. I think Galloway made the right move at the conference by taking things by the scruff of the neck politically speaking and firmly orienting Respect towards the Labour and TU movement. In that sense all the factions were given a wake up call from the Greenies, to the Euro-islamists, to the irrelaventists.

    I hope that the left inside Respect managed to get factional rights now that it has become a party because there is no way that radical socialists can go around talking about free busses and electoral reform at this next election. These are the concrete things we should have been busying ourselves with.

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  178. “Ian, you appear to have joined Skidward’s one-man Wreckspect operation which he has been continuing long after others have forgotten. That is not good. Skidmarx’s world is one you do not want to enter.”

    Paranoid fantasy on your part. I have no association with Skidmarx and insofar as our views coincide on some questions, it is largely because of his association with the SWP.

    “I think Galloway made the right move at the conference by taking things by the scruff of the neck politically speaking and firmly orienting Respect towards the Labour and TU movement.”

    Complete fantasy. Mark P (above) wholeheartedly approves of what Galloway is doing and he detests the labour (note, no capital L, they are not synonymous) and TU movement, just as does his mentor Bea Campbell.

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  179. Anyway, apart from paranoid accusations that political criticism amounts to ‘wrecking’ (which are reminiscent of Stalinism), does David Ellis have anything to say to defend his party – Labour – against the allegation that far from being a reformist workers party anymore, it is a cross class party with a substantial section of capital behind it, that is now in the business of competing with the Tories to win over big capital to support it?

    Can David Ellis concretely refute this idea, without referrring to what Trotsky said about a competely different Labour Party back in 1932, or whenever?

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  180. ID. You are clearly detached from reality..

    No I don’t ‘detest’ the labour and trade union movement tho’ unlike you I am quite capable of finding fault with it.

    I’m so relieved that in the not too distant future I won’t have to endure the embarassment of being in the same political organisation as you and your co-thinkers. Goodbye.

    Mark

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  181. Mark P – does that mean that non-Eurocmmunists should be made to feel unwelcome in Respect? Would that complete the transformation from a “broad class struggle organisation” into a narrow class collaborationist clique?

    David Ellis – I’d echo what ID has said. Generally it seems to be you living in your own world, where having a different point of view is wrecking. Were it true that I was a one-man Wreckspect operation, is its foundations really so flimsy that one man could bring it down. Modesty insists that I don’t have such power, it is more likely to self-destruct all of its own accord.
    And once again I’ll point out that I didn’t come into this with fixed views as to who was right and wrong on the Respect split, and it is the garbage thrown by those who wished to destroy the SWP that led me to regard you and your kind with a degree of contempt. When every posting in another (Andy’s) place by me or anyone else with any sympathy for the SWP was an occasion for you and yours to unleash a torrent of bile. Anyone could check the archive and know this to be the case. If you toned it down I’d be willing to engage with the respect due to normal socialists, but there’s no way I’m going to stop telling the truth about what I see happening.

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  182. Mark P

    “No I don’t ‘detest’ the labour and trade union movement tho’ unlike you I am quite capable of finding fault with it. ”

    I’m sure the labour and trade union movement knows how to treat your ‘fault-finding’. With contempt, as befits a class enemy.

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  183. Ian, for goodness sake. We all know that Skidmarx is the last SWPer alive that is interested in their scorched earth policy of leaving nothing behind when they depart. Respect’s survival means they have moved on to tearing themselves apart now. But I certainly don’t think you are in that bracket. I’m merely pointing out how you sound like him a bit and really should be a bit less frantic and a bit more frateranal if only to set an example to the Euros. Look, at least any notion of Respect supporting all Green candidates in every constituency even against Labour has proved to be a non-starter.

    As for the labour party which, incidentaly is not mine, of course the ruling but divided new labour clique have severed all ties with the working class and are helping the ruling class to carry out its counter reforms but there is more to the labour party than that clique and the next Gen election will be a bitter class versus class struggle when it finally arrives despite the toadying leaders.

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  184. ID thanks for the compliment, presumably as I support the Respect majority you have the same deluded view of the rest of us. You must be really relishing campaigning for George Galloway and Salma Yaqoob in the General Election, eh?

    Oh and ‘skidmarx’. If you seriously believe ID’s ravings that Respect has been taken over by Eurocommunists you must be even more stupid than your hilariously funny moniker suggests.

    Mark P

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  185. David Ellis

    “I’m merely pointing out how you sound like him a bit and really should be a bit less frantic and a bit more frateranal if only to set an example to the Euros.”

    I don’t think its necessary or possible to ‘set an example’ to the Euros. If they wish to gain control of Respect and turn it into a latter day caricature of the SDP or the ‘Democratic Left’, then that’s a tragedy, but no amount of tact on my part will change their intention or behaviour. Why do you want to be ‘fraternal’ to class enemies?

    “there is more to the labour party than that clique and the next Gen election will be a bitter class versus class struggle when it finally arrives despite the toadying leaders.”

    This is nonsense. A party that has an outright bourgeois programme and whose whole strategic aim is to compete with the Tories for the allegiance of big capital cannot by some metaphysical process also be the expression of a class struggle on behalf of organised labour. A cross class party is not one where the two classes both exercise equal power, just as a horseman is not an entity where both a horse and its rider exercise equal power. The horse is enslaved, his master is the rider.

    That analogy comes from Trotsky’s analysis of popular fronts. It is entirely appropriate to use it with regard to today’s Labour Party, which now embodies the material interest of a substantial section of the capitalist ruling class itself, eclipsing that of the labour bureaucracy as in decades past. Breaking that tie of the workers movement to big capital is the strategic task, not the victory of the unitary bloc of the trade unions with capital that is today’s Labour Party.

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  186. But the alternative is not yet built Ian and that is our fault no and perhaps a little to do with the objective conditions at the movment. A class moves as a class. Whilst I am happy for you that all your illusions are banished that is not the case for the multi-millioned masses. Acting in solidarity with that class does not for one moment mean withdrawing our withering criticism of New Labour and its manifesto which will include turning NHS Trusts into privatised John Lewis style outfits, using inflation where it cannot make cuts to dump the burden of the crisis on the workers, etc, etc. Nor does it stop us from putting forward our own programme.

    By the way I was talking about a fraternal attitude to the project rather than any individual.

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  187. “Strikebreakers in some cases, true. But privatisers?
    What nonsense!!! What did they privatise, then?”

    OK maybe they didn’t transfer state owned assets to the private sector but prescription charges, ie charging for NHS services, could be argued as the first “privatisation” step of the new welfare state and led to Bevan (and Wilson) resigning from the Government. And of course Attlee famously refused to nationalise the whole of the Iron and Steel industry leaving parts of it in the private sector, completely against the vast majority of the Labour Party that did not want any part of the industry in private sector hands.

    Give me some leeway on figures of speech – they defended private property and profit – but obviously you agree that they were strikebreakers and imperialist warmongers as well which makes them pretty bad eh?

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  188. Neil Williams “If you like i can give the the figures but NO2 EU (just Google them) which was weeks old old did better in the Euro elections than the Green Party (or its predecessor) did in their first Euro elections.”

    Well you are not comparing like with like – the first Euro elections in 1979 were fought over large first past the post constituencies with big deposits for each IIRC, not a more regional party list system with a form of PR more favourable to small parties and with a comparatively low threshold for election in some regions.

    The Ecology Party (forerunner of the Green Party) did however fight a few of the large FPTP seats in 1979 however, including London Central where a certain “Hon. J.E Porritt” got 4.1% of the vote, considerably better than No2EU over the same area, despite it being a less favourable electoral system back then. And of course a decade later the Green Party got 2 million votes, which I live in hope to see Bob Crow getting in the election after next.

    The IMG got 0.9% in London West in 1979 by the way, which was the typical “far left” vote at the time, comparable with the London votes of Left List and No2EU in 2008 and 2009.

    For some of us, a level of vote of the order of 1% is of the “Been there, got that T Shirt” variety, rather than a significant move forward.

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  189. Mark P – I’m glad that you find my moniker hilariously funny, I try. I don’t think ID is raving, and I find your characterisation of his contribution in this way a further demonstration of the way the majority of the Respect(minority) try to demonise and illegitimise any criticism of themselves. I might disagree with some of the detail of what he says, but I think the broad thrust is that the leadership of Respect rejects class politics except as a propaganda trick to keep a few a few white leftists involved and give it the illusion of a national presence, and that the focus is now on electoral deals with non-working class paties to the exclusion of what are disdainfully called “the sects”, is something we’d agree on. Maybe he’d disagree with the way I’ve put things above, he can speak for himself, as long as he can put up with the abuse dealt out to dissidents from the official Respect Panglossism.

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  190. Prinkipo Exile lets just look at the facts shall we.

    Nobody in their right mind woud suggest that the 1% overall vote for No2EU in the 2009 Euro elections was fantastic or any sort of brakethrough. The organisation was weeks old and the result was resonable in the circumstances (as you will see from the figures below). It certainly was not (and will not be) just about votes – it showed that Left organisations could work together while retaining their indentity. This was a first small step and yes it was all done late and with a bloody aweful name but at least some tried and laid a foundation for the future.

    NO2EU recieved 153,236 and 1% of the 2009 Euro votes.

    Now lets compare this to the Green Party and its forrrunner the Ecology Party (PR started in the 1999 Euro elections)

    Ecology Party(founded 1973 so it was six years old at the time not a few weeks as in the case of NO2EU)). 1979 General Election 39,918 votes

    Ecology Party 1983 General Election (now 10 years old) 54,299 votes

    Green Party 1987 General Election 89,753 votes

    Green Party 1989 Euro Election (not using PR) 2million votes and 15%

    Gren Party 1999 Euro Elctions (using PR) 625,378 votes and 5.8%

    Green Party 2004 Euro Election (using PR) 1,028,283 votes ad 6.3%

    Green Party 2009 Euro Election (using PR) 1,303,745 votes and 8.6%

    So you can see that No2EU receieved more votes than either the Ecology Party dd in its first 10 years or the Green Party in its first Euro Election in 1987 (no PR at that point).

    The best Green Party vote was in 1989 Euro elections (without PR and so a lot harder) and in the 21 years since they have never go near their 15% and 2 million votes. So far from being a Party that is gaining in support the figures show it has “peaked” and has the support of around 5% to 9% (for national elections) depending on the type of election and I can see no evidence it is likely to get larger (other than in some localised elections or regional elections) where they can throw the whole Party machine into the fight).

    So the NO2EU vote while nothing special was not so bad after all was it?

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  191. David Ellis

    “Whilst I am happy for you that all your illusions are banished that is not the case for the multi-millioned masses. ”

    The phrase about the ‘multi-millioned masses” is a dead give-away about the genealogy of this argument. Its a very evocative phrase from Trotsky, and it assumes a level of illusions in the class character of the Labour Party that simply does not exist. I believe it orginally referred to the illusions in the French left (CP and SP) that set off the General Strike of 1936 in France immediately after the Popular Front was elected. But the Labour Party does not inspire such illusions today – it is a complete fantasy to imply that it does.

    Most working-class people these days are very well aware that the Labour government has looked after the interests of the rich more far more than those of themelves. There is presently a fatalistic belief, a derivative of the myth of the ‘death of socialism’, that no alternative is possible to this kind of politics, but class consciousness this ain’t!! This is a classic example of what happens when you learn your politics purely from books, and not engagement with the real world.

    Prinkipo

    “Give me some leeway on figures of speech – they defended private property and profit – but obviously you agree that they were strikebreakers and imperialist warmongers as well which makes them pretty bad eh?”

    Desperate stuff. Why should I give Prinkipo ‘leeway’ on this? These are not mere figures of speech that describe the same things, but completely different things. Carrying out social-democratic reforms in a inconsistent manner (which is what Prinkipo describes above from Atlee, Wilson et al) is substantially different from an aggressive drive
    to roll back and destroy such reforms, which is what Blair and Brown have done.

    One is reformism, the other is counter-reformism – a.k.a. Thatcherism. Prinkipo is playing with words in order to justify voting for Thatcherism by passing it off as the same thing as social-democratic reformism.

    It is of course true that old-style reformist Labour governments were loyal servants of imperialism, and prosecuted imperialist wars. Mind you, that was not without its limits – Harold Wilson, it will be recalled, kept Britain out of direct involvement in Vietnam because he feared the backlash from within his own movement if he were to join the US efforts.

    With the transformation of Labour under Blair, however, these restraints were removed. Everyone knows that Blair’s government was on the far neo-conservative right of European politics over the ‘war on terror’ – along with Jose Maria Aznar and Berluconi. New Labour was qualitatively to the right of German Social Democracy and also of French Gaullism over such questions.

    Which is hardly the same as Old Labour’s record on imperialist war, bad though it was. It is a qualitiative intensifaction of the imperialist nature of the Labour Party, which is what you would expect now that it is not run by mere labour bureaucrats, but by elements of the ruling class itself.

    Very poor arguments by Prinkipo in defence of voting for Brown’s neo-Thatcherist government today, trying to make out that it is the same as the Attlee government that created the NHS. Cynical, historically illiterate, and an insult to the genuinely progressive sentiments that drive many left reformists.

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  192. ‘Skidmarx’. To describe ID as ‘raving’ is a fairly mild way of depicting someone who now regards George Galloway as a ‘class enemy’. Still Ilm sure he’s big enough to take it as he heads off on his own personal rite to socialist salvation freed from the shackles of collaborationists.

    Mark P

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  193. “who now regards George Galloway as a ‘class enemy’.”

    Actually, I don’t regard George Galloway as a ‘class enemy’.

    (Abuse deleted. My site, my rules. Liam)

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  194. To be a nit picker

    the ecology party was not formed until 1975, out of the People party, which was indeed founded in 1973. The People party had not even the slightest overlap with left or progressive politcs, as they were completely opposed to all industrialisation, and their first parliementary candidate was former british miilitary intelliegnce officer, Edward Goldsmith, elder brother of Sir James Goldsmith.

    But it is anyway surely a fallacy that NO2EU is going to have a long term patient approach bulding up a small vote over decades.

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  195. My apologies ID I thought we both shared the compliment. So glad I’ve got it to myself tho’. Good luck with the socialist salvation.

    Mark

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  196. Neil Williams – you are not comparing like with like. No2EU stood in every constituency in England, Scotland and Wales in June. The Ecology Party stood in only a small number of constituencies in the elections that you quote until 1989. A better basis of comparison would be to compare the votes of No2EU with those of Respect and the SSP in 2004. Tell us what that comparison is? And that presumes that we don’t count the votes of the Liberal Party and AGS in 2004 too, both of whom supported No2EU in 2009!

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  197. Andy is right about the smoke signals coming from No2EU v2. the impression, even to those of us who welcome the initiative, is that a self appointed “core group” tells everyone else what is in the manifesto. This is something of a “like it or lump it”option for any groups or individuals who would like to get involved and is a pretty unattractive model

    The other issue is that an electoral alliance might make sense to small numbers on the left but is not going to inspire too many current or former Labour voters.

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  198. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    The SWP is, as I understand it, going along with this. It will agree to stand a number of candidates under the son-of-No2EU banner without having any say over the manifesto or organisation.

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  199. So the SWP is developing some humility? That could be a progressive step.

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  200. Excellent ID, you got your sense of humour back.

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  201. Some settling down of issues in Manchester.

    Gorton constituency looks like being the bear garden (this being manchester there has to be at least one).

    The SWP are calling a meeting next weekend to set up a candidacy called “Manchester Alternative” though they haven’t registered that name for elections yet . Respect are also intending to stand in the same constituency and there is also a Green candidate. It is not clear yet whether Gerald Kaufman will be defending his seat (he would be 85 at the end of his term office if he did so successfully) so the SWP’s focus on his record only may turn out to come to nothing if he stands down just before the election.

    The Socialist Party will be standing in Wythenshawe and Sale, which is mostly in Manchester but includes part of Trafford Borough. They will be hoping to improve on the 1% of the vote they got in 2005; and one presumes they anticipate being endorsed as part of their new coalition with the CPB, AGS and Bob Crow (and they hope the RMT).

    Respect are also standing national chair Kay Philips in Blackley and Broughton which will be a new cross-borough seat in Manchester and Salford defended by Graham Stringer. There is likely to be a pact with the Greens in this seat.

    Nothing definite elsewhere in Greater Manchester though the Wigan, Leigh and Makerfield People’s Alliance intend to stand in all three seats, which were all contested by CAP with quite good results last time. The “Hazel Must Go” campaign of left wingers and local residents have announced that they intend to stand in Salford constituency against Hazel Blears but no details of candidate selection yet unless anyone knows anything else.

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  202. with regard to Blackley constituency,

    its not that ‘there’s likely to be a pact with the Greens’.

    There is a pact with the Greens negoiated sometime ago not stand against Kay.

    Just a helpful update .

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  203. originally it was just ‘PEOPLE’, any way spent a happy couple of hours canvassing with Caroline Lucas today with a good response and she went to support the PSC action in town.

    We do need to focus on actually working for candidates rather than debating.

    I am hoping to go and help Salma at some point.

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  204. “We do need to focus on actually working for candidates rather than debating.”

    I understand where you are coming from Derek, but quite a few of us come from a political tradition where we have had enough of being told that we need to put a little more effort in, and not worry so much about debating whetehr it is right or wrong.

    In any event, it is Saturday evening, so leafkletsing ior knocking on doors might be counterproductive at this exact moment

    :o)

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  205. Andy – that proves the need for Splintered’s proposed book “Enthusiasm Makes The Difference”.

    Madness to the method

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  206. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Oh, there’s a whole library of those books if any are needed. Rev Peale may have been ahead of his time.

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  207. Looks like my attempt to post a link to this article got somehow lost.

    Anyway, here it is “Respect Conference – A Shift to the Right” – article by Ian Donovan on Junius Blog.

    http://tinyurl.com/yjuotwl

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  208. I suffered a few years back when I stood for the Socialist Allaince for giving a load of leaflets to a piss head freind of mine and his nocturnal Spanish girlfriend (a cultural thing due to her being unemployed and still having a siesta).

    They leafleted some streets in the wee small hours of the morning, and i got so many hostile complaints about the noise of gates and letterboxes being banged and clattered with while people were tryng to sleep..

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