Liam redux

"Support the left": sign this statement

We believe that there IS an alternative to wars, cuts, privatisation, environmental destruction. We believe that the current UK election system does not allow our views to become represented – a truly democratic society requires participation and involvement at all levels and that the next elections will inevitably not lead to major change. However, we…

Liam
1–2 minutes

We believe that there IS an alternative to wars, cuts, privatisation, environmental destruction. We believe that the current UK election system does not allow our views to become represented – a truly democratic society requires participation and involvement at all levels and that the next elections will inevitably not lead to major change.

However, we do believe that there are candidates of the left, across several political organisations, who should be supported by everyone who agrees that there is an alternative to Brown, Cameron or Clegg. And in the interests of unity we call for left candidates to avoid clashing in the same seats.

We will therefore support the following for example (and there may well be many more), who strongly demonstrate practical representation of the left in its widest sense:

Caroline Lucas (Green, Brighton)
Dai Davies (independent, Blaenau Gwent)
George Galloway and Abjol Miah (Respect), John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) (in London);
Peter Tatchell (Green, Oxford);
Dave Nellist (Socialist Party, Coventry);
Salma Yaqoob (Respect, Birmingham)
Gayle O’Donovan, Kay Phillips (in Manchester; Green and Respect respectively);
Peter Cranie (Green, Liverpool);
Val Wise (independent, Preston).

Yours

John Nicholson
Declan O’Neill
Kay Phillips
Clive Searle
Norma Turner
Duncan Chapel

To add your name to this statement, email John Nicholson at backtheleft@sent.com.

120 responses to “"Support the left": sign this statement”

  1. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    What are the SR doing signing this?
    No problem for Respect, they want to build a liberal electoral organisation.
    No problem for the Greens, they are a liberal electoral organisation.
    But SR they’re revolutionary socialists?
    Whatever happened to the class line?

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  2. cottonopolis Avatar
    cottonopolis

    Thank you for some sanity on the left at last. I will sign it now.

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  3. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    Perhaps the statement should make it clear that Galloway, Salma, Abjol Miah, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, possibly Dai Davies and probably Dave Nellist, the rest i don’t know, are of course generally in favour of the return of a labour government at the next election.

    There are no left Plaid candidates on the list?

    What about Meacher’s proposal to get as many labour candidates as possible to stand on a distinct manifesto to the one NL will be pushing?

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  4. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    The logic of the statement (which I am happy to sign) is that if you want an alternative to war, cuts, privatisation and environmental destruction, and to Brown, Cameron and Clegg, then you shouldn’t vote for them. There should be no vote to Labour candidates unless they have demonstrated (like McDonnell and Corbyn) that they too are opposed to such things. A general vote for Labour will only serve to reinforce the two-and-a half-party system we seek to change.

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  5. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    Good old rightist Duncan, supporting a list of candidates where only two of them are explicitly standing as socialists – Nellist and Corbyn – and the rest are a bunch of radical liberals, populists and of course the bourgeois Greens.

    And what is the tactic involved here? At least the Socialist Party and the Respect Party are using the election to build organisations, so are the Greens. What is this motley bunch of signatories trying to build? Support for a bunch of candidates who don’t even support each other, who are in competition as parties.

    And who do these signatories represent apart from themselves? What masses are they going to direct into the struggle to elect these candidates? It is clearly vanity politics.

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  6. Goran Avatar
    Goran

    Stuart!

    What “masses” are You directing? Just for the record.

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  7. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    Bill and Stuart- here is the class line- opposition to “wars, cuts, privatisation, environmental destruction.”

    I suppose that rules out voting for Mandelson. if that is ‘rightist’ so be it- I will leave the ‘leftism’ to PR.

    BTW Caroline Lucas was excellent yesterday- don’t just vote for green or progressive candidates but build the biggest mass movement of non-violent direct action ever seen to force governments to act.

    And the Green Party placards said ‘Carbon cuts not welfare cuts’ which seems pretty much a carbon (pun intended) copy of the sort of thing the Socialist Party would say…

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  8. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    You probably didn’t notice Rob but your “class line” leaves out class.

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  9. Robm Avatar
    Robm

    Got me bang to rights- anti imperialism, opposition to public spending cuts and privatisation are not class issues whereas support for New Labour, presumably, is!
    Gotta love these born again Mandelson-Marxists!

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  10. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Full marks for alliteration.
    Wherever the Green Party has been elected, Lewisham, Leeds, London it has been no more left wing than New Labour. Indeed in Leeds it even joined a coalition with the Tories. The Greens always blame this on the “local” parties. All Green constituency organisations have autonomy they say. If anything that makes it even worse, whenever its up to the local to decide what to do they co-operate fully with the authorities. They don’t even need central instructions.
    Don’t tell me that’s news to you.

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  11. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    Thats just silly. No-one is talking about the Green Party as a whole.- only left candidates who subscribe to basic minimum positions as above.
    Whereas your support for new Labour candidates appears to be universal and unconditional.

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  12. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Like Caroline Lucas? You having a laugh?

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  13. cottonopolis Avatar
    cottonopolis

    So what are you people who disagree with the list going to do come election time? Go on holiday maybe and let the rest of us try and get as much support for anti welfare cuts and anti war candidates.

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  14. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    We (PR as an organisation that is) will decide who we are supporting shortly before the election is called. That is because general election campaigns last about 6 weeks – though you wouldn’t think it the way the left has been obsessing about them for the last year or more.

    What is surprising is how naive people are about Caroline Lucas – she talks left at left meetings, and right to the media and business (e.g. denying she is an anti-capitalist). What makes anyone think that any leaders of the Greens will depart from the policies of the Germans, Irish, Icelanders etc once in power or once in coalition? The fact that local Greens in councils support cuts and privatisation should warn people of the actual politics of this party.

    It is instructive that left-Green, Derek Wall has been rewarded by his party with fighting a parliamentary seat of Windsor. Now it would be really worth going canvassing with Derek to the Windsor Castle to hand out eco-socialist manifestos to all those courtiers and ladies in waiting!

    The point is of course is what will support for this motley coalition actually leave behind after election day? In what way will it strengthen the organisations and fighting spirit of the working class? It is like those people who told the American workers to support Ralph Nader for president – people like Duncan, the SWP, ISO etc. What good did it do? Where is his organisation now? Answer: nowhere.

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  15. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    Respect has taken a clear class line on this election. It will be canvassing for its own candidates but in general and in solidarity with millions of workers is for the defeat of the Tories at the next election and that means the return of labour. It may support one or two green candidates and other `serious’ candidates of the left where they emerge but it will not be supporting any old variety of sectariana that pops its head up. It will not be supporting sectarian Green candidates carte blanche or son of No2Eu candidates unless they have some serious purchase in a particular constituency. It, I think, has said it will be backing the Wigan People Alliance candidates which is correct as they are clearly organic. Also and very importantly I believe Respect most certainly should be supporting Michael Meacher’s efforts to sign up labour MPs and candidates to an alternative labour manifesto to the one that NL will be foisting on the party.

    Respect, as far as I understand it, will not be allowing right wing bureaucrats and New Labour spin doctors to blame either it or the minority and working class communities it is seeking to represent for a Labour defeat and will be in prime position to intervene in any post-election labour movement discussion about the way forward following the next election.

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  16. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    Where is his organisation now? Answer: nowhere.

    Pot, Kettle. . . . .

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  17. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Teapot.

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  18. Derek Wall Avatar
    Derek Wall

    Stuart I live in the Windsor constituency which is why I am standing there.

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  19. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    David, you’ve said a similar thing a number of times now, but let’s be clear. The people to blame for a Tory victory are the people who vote Tory. Being against a Tory victory does not equate to voting Labour, that is the crudest type of electoral blackmail that would cement the two party system for all eternity.

    Labour is to blame for its own plight and likely defeat, by wasting its historic opportunity in 1997 and pursuing an anti-working class, neoliberal and warmongering agenda. Let’s not patronise people by effectively saying “we think Labour has been terrible in Government but we’ll stand by them because you are still deluded enough to think they may look after your interests.”

    Let’s just tell the truth about Labour and vote for candidates who stand up for something approximating to anti war, anti privatisation and social justice values.

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  20. johng Avatar
    johng

    David Ellis is in Respect? I got the impression he was with the Sparts.

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  21. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Who doesn’t tell the truth about Labour? That isn’t an impediment to voting for them. They remain a mass working class organisation.
    Its a shame people don’t tell the truth about the Greens and Respect. Presumably people think in that instance, the truth might be.

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  22. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    Billj: Respect, clear anti-imperialist stance combined with an equally clear orientation to the labour movement and a strong base in some of the most oppressed minority communities in Britain. It has the best chance of punching a major hole in the labour and tu bureaucracies’ vice-like political monopoly over the labour movement.

    Johng: Always remember Johng that when you point one finger there are three pointing back at you.

    Nick Bird: People have illusions, if they didn’t there’d be a revolution tomorrow and nobody is standing by New Labour. We are standing by the working class who are determined to prevent a Tory victory. Don’t worry, if New Labour win they will very quickly eat away at the coalitional struts of support that they currently enjoy as they slash this that and the other. This quickest way to end the two party system or more ambitiously capitalism is to put them back in power to face the consequences of the credit crunch, an increasingly unpopular war and their inability to protect the environment and because of Respect’s solidarity with workers against the Tory enemy it will be in prime position to take up the slack.

    To be seen to allow the Tories in or to open one’s self up to getting the blame for such a thing will be disastrous especially as the `left’ has so utterly failed itself to build a national alternative that the working class can currently take even remotely seriously.

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  23. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    Derek lives in Windsor. Well, the next time I am wandering across the playing fields of Eton I will look across to Windsor and view it in a completely different light.

    Anyway best of luck Derek, good Green Party territory around there.

    Stuart

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  24. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    equally clear orientation to the labour movement
    With a very large scale ordnance survey map, or images from the Hubble Space Telescope I presume.

    Always remember Johng that when you point one finger there are three pointing back at you.
    I thought it was just two from you.

    David Ellis is in Respect?
    I thought I saw someone claim he’s in the Labour Party, though he himself says he’s in the Revolutionary Girl Guides of America.

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  25. Derek Wall Avatar
    Derek Wall

    I am trailer rather than Eton playing field based, take a look at Whigs and Hunters for an alternative look at the class struggle history of Winkfield.

    any way I guess any excuse for sticking with New Labour is appropriate for some.

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  26. Adamski Avatar
    Adamski

    Whigs and Hunters, EP Thomspon is a very good book (though dubious about his ‘rule of law’ thesis at the end), but EP Thompson is one of my all-time heroes.

    Also check out Peter Linebaugh’s superb ‘Magna Carta Manifesto’ (if you haven’t already) has a discussion of ‘the charter of the forest’ that was issued alongside the magna carta.

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  27. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Are New Labour likely to enter into a coalition with the Tories Derek?

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  28. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    What! They allow trailers in Windsor and a poacher to boot.

    Here’s a slogan for the Windsor Green-marxist manifesto aimed at the castle community:

    Grace-and-favour tenants unite, you have nothing to lose but your gold chains!

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  29. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    bill j – Labour don’t need to enter a coalition with the Tories because they are capable of carrying out Tory policies on their own.

    David – I just don’t accept that Respect would be “blamed” by anyone if it refused to call for a general Labour vote and Labour crashed to defeat. If the overwhelming priority in the coming election is to keep the Tories out then you would actually end up voting for a lot of Lib Dems where they are the principal challengers to the Tories. A Labour vote in many areas is as “wasted” as a vote for those you dismiss as “any old variety of sectariana.”

    I also do not accept that Respect is drawing a “class line” by calling for a Labour vote because in every major struggle of the past decade Labour has been on the wrong side of the class line.

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  30. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    You missed the point. The Greens have formed a coalition with the Tories. You’re on about honesty, are you going to tell people about that?

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  31. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    As I understand it the Greens in Leeds formed a coalition with the Tories, a serious mistake and I would not be voting Green if I lived there. I am not convinced that this is typical Green behaviour however. And is it worse than Labour’s effective “coalition” with the Bush White House to invade and occupy Iraq and Afghanistan? Somehow that doesn’t stop you voting Labour, yet it is all too typical.

    You described Labour as a “mass working class organisation” which is not true in any proper sense. The unions are mass working class organisations but the link between them and Labour has become an abusive relationship, with one side receiving nothing in return, seeing its policies ignored and ridiculed, yet mostly unable to take the step to freedom and to rebuilding itself as a political force.

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  32. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Well it is true in the proper sense of who pays the bills? The bulk of Labour Party funding comes from the unions.
    And who votes for it?
    Still overwhelmingly working class people.

    I take it from your answer that you won’t be telling the “truth” about the Greens. So much for a new beginning.

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  33. ID Avatar
    ID

    The Green’s are standing against George Galloway and Abjol Miah in East London for the General Election.

    Looks like the fire and brimstone from GG directed at Respect’s left wing at the recent conference, presumably to persuade the Greens that Respect is composed of like-minded people who shun ‘dogmatic’ ideas about the role of the working class as a force for progressive social change, didn’t quite work.

    And billj, even if it is true that at the moment the unions are paying a large amount into Labour funds, that doesn’t mean that the union bureaucracy has any significant say in Labour policy. Theirs is a subordinate relationship to the PFI and city types who now call the shots on policy in the LP.

    Labour’s support among the bourgeoisie will ebb and flow, as indeed it does with the Tories as anyone who recollects the dog days of Iain Duncan-Smith’s leadership – when the Tories found it difficult to get a brass farthing out of big business – will recall. Labour no longer sees the labour bureaucracy and its right-wing as its political centre of gravity, but rather the privateers who benefit from its neo-liberal policies. The compete with the Tories for bourgeois support. That is a fundamental change in Labour – albeit the culimination of a process that has taken around 25 years to complete under Kinnock and Blair.

    It means that the LP is no longer a bourgeois workers party, but a coalition of business and organised labour with the latter in the subordinate position. A class collaborationist bloc or neo-liberal popular front in the form of a party. No class-conscious socialist should be advocating support to supporters of the New Labour mainstream. Only the small minority of pro-working class socialists who still have illusions that Labour can be ‘reclaimed’ deserve any electoral support from the genuine left.

    That is what independent working class politics means today.

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  34. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    This is a common misconception. It shows terrible illusions in the trade union leaders. Of course they have influence on New Labour. The reason they don’t object to Gorgeous Gordon is because they agree with him.
    Haven’t you got that by now?

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  35. ID Avatar
    ID

    Typically Orwellian crap from ‘left’ supporters of New Labour. Refusing to vote for neo-liberal scum politicians means you have ‘illusions’ in their pet trade union leaders. Pur-lease!

    This kind of warped reasoning reminds me of a cartoon about American presidents from the late 1970s.

    George Washington – “I cannot tell a lie”
    Richard Nixon – “I cannot tell the truth”
    Jimmy Carter – “I cannot tell the difference”

    Yet another example of the twisted ‘logic’ of the psuedo left that makes it such a laughing stock in society. I’d sooner see New Labour ministers blown to kingdom come by some ‘terrorist’ movement they have upset than consider voting for them. You can hustle votes for them if you so wish. Forgive me while I vomit.

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  36. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    ID: that sounds like a real third period style rant. First the Tories then us? The Tories will have a clear political mandate for cuts if they win. NL on the other hand even if it fills its manifesto with slash and burn will not. Though of course the chances of the labour movement surviving the next Tory onslaught are slightly better than say an openly fascist onslaught.

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  37. ID Avatar
    ID

    Third period?

    Evidently then you can’t tell the difference between the Tories and Hitler’s Nazi Party.

    Both the Tories and New Labour stand on the terrain of bourgeois democracy and the existence of a workers movement, whereas fascists stand for the destruction of bourgeois democracy and the crushing, or even extermination of the workers movement.

    If anything is reminiscent of ‘third period’ catastrophism, it is that equation. But yours is third period catastrophism in the service of hustling votes for neo-liberalism.

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  38. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    David Ellis: “The Tories will have a clear political mandate for cuts if they win. NL on the other hand even if it fills its manifesto with slash and burn will not.”
    Eh? can you explain this? If Labour won a landslide on a ‘cuts’ manifesto they would not have a mandate for cuts? This is truly surreal. it would be claiming absolutely and precisely that it had such a mandate and it would do its damnedest to implement it.

    I think you are trying to say there would be some resistance generated in the TUs and reflected in the lower reaches of the LP- certainly resistance among a lot of Labour voters- but that is after the fact and it isn’t quite the same as your explicit message above.

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  39. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    I agree, it is clear from Darling’s statement today exactly the extent of the cuts to be borne by the public sector and its workforce. That is what Labour will be fighting the election on – making us pay for the crisis and restoring capitalism to rude health (ie profit).

    I wonder sometimes is it only the radical left that performs such somersaults in deciding how to vote? Most people just find a party with policies they more or less agree with and vote for it. It seems some people on the left will go to great lengths, invoking century-old theories, to justify voting for a party whose policies they detest, and claim to be doing it in the name of class solidarity!

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  40. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    As Dacid points out there are ways this statement could be improved:for example by mentioning socialist candidates in Plaid. However, while this document is just a start it’s important to gather together those who want to maximise the vote to the left of Labour. If this statement had been initiated earlier, perhaps we would have had more of the common dialogue needed to avoid clashes.

    Stuart and Bill play a fascinating game on threads like this. They attack left candidates from the left but swerve right on polling day and vote Labour. There’s a real flavour there of ‘classic’ Workers’ Power, who used to turn up at founding conferences, propose their programme, act all surprised that the simple presentation of the programme didn’t changes minds, and then nip off home in time for tea.

    Of course the idea that these candidates are not socialists only makes sense if, for you, someone is only a socialist if they are an orthodox Trotskyist. Which misses the point.

    The red and green left will not go well into this election, and neither will the working class as a whole. We have to fight to show that the choice at this election is between the big parties of austerity, or the left. And we want to maximise the vote for the left in order to prepare the right back against the next government.

    If you seriously think that a victory for Labour in Brighton, in Limehouse, in Blaenau Gwent is the best way to prepare for that fightback then your notion of class is totally divorced from the real dynamics of struggles.

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  41. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    No it is Duncan who has forgotten why revolutionaries have ever voted Labour. It is not because of their politics or programme (bourgeois) not because this LP candidate or that is left or right but because the bulk of the organised working class still votes Labour.

    Where revolutionaries cannot stand themselves we try and relate to those workers by taking a step with them – voting Labour and saying “but organise to fight”. As the bulk of the trade unions support Labour we take this tactic into the unions. As the unions control the purse strings of Labour and their leaders prop up Gordon Brown we tneed to conduct a struggle there.

    If there are class struggle candidates standing against Labour with real support in the working class, people who represent a real struggle we would consider voting for them. That is a matter of assessment at the time and being part of a struggle.

    Most “left candidates” have little or no support in the workers movement – a fact reflected in their votes. It is also a result of self-appointed sects (not parties) deciding they will select candidates without involvement of the workers movement locally eg through mass meeting, workers primaries etc.

    The Greens who Duncan supports are another matter entirely. They have no significant support in the workers movement, nor any historical link with the trade unions like Labour ie they are a bourgeois party no different to the Liberal Democrats.

    If, Duncan, you think a victory for Caroline Lucas in Brighton is going to aid a working class fight back your notion of class is divorced both from marxism and socialist politics.

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  42. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    And what ‘significant support’ do the group that hilariously calls itself Permanent Revolution enjoy in the workers movement?

    Mark P

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  43. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Says Mark P who advocated a vote for Vince Cable.

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  44. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Bit of a no sequitur there Bill J. You criticise the Green Party on the grounds of no ‘significant support’ in the workers movement? Perhaps you could enlighten us with the significant support in the workers movement that a group calling itself ‘Permanent Revolution’ enjoys? With your searing insight of others failings it cannot surely be nothing less than substantial, surely?

    Oh and if live in Vince Cable’s constituency I would happily vote for him ahead of any no-hope Labour Candidate, you can quote me on that.

    Mark P

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  45. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    PR have socialist politics, not just as a vote-winning detachable add-on, which is more than you can say for the Greens or Respect.

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  46. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Wow thats impressive. And the socialist poliitcs of the group that hilariously calls itself ‘Permanent Revolution’ have found such a deep resonance in working class communities that they enjoy the ‘deep support in the workers’ movement.’

    Or not.

    Mark P

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  47. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Its difficult to live with your searing whit I’ll admit. I was trying to match it but I couldn’t stop laughing at your support for Vince Cable. Its very off putting you know writing stuff like that, when people are trying to be serious.

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  48. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    C’mon don;t duck the issue. Your group you’ve hilariously decided to call ‘Permanent Revolution’ derides the Green Party in your quaint terminology for lacking ‘deep support in the workers movement.’

    So where’s the evidence that all the pointless activity into building a group called Permanent Revolution has resulted in anything resembling ‘significant support in the workers movement’, I must have missed it but I;m sure you;ll have some evidence to quote.

    As for Vince Cable. Give the choice between a no-hope labour candidate and a Tory I’d vote for Vince in his constituency every time. And you;d have to be an obstinate fool not to.

    Looking forward to hear of Permanent Revolution’s support in the workers movement, can hardly wait.

    Mark P

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  49. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Yeah I saw your man Vince on telly tonight, explaining how Labour weren’t hard enough, the cuts not deep enough.
    I thought to myself; “what better evidence could we want for the vindication of the strategy of the broad cross class progressive front?”
    And I honestly couldn’t think of any.

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  50. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Glad to see you keep ducking the point.

    Never mind how awful my politics are lets hear about the ‘significant support in the workers movement’ a group called Permanent Revolution enjoys.

    And if you haven’t got any successes to crow about why don’t you crawl back to a students union where you might at least be able to get a couple of middle class wannabe class warriors to give you the time of day, though on current form not many of those either . It must be fun dedicating your task to such a futile politics with not one single success story to look back on. Enjoy it.

    Mark

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  51. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Essentially what it boils down to is we have quite different projects.
    You want, well let’s be honest its not exactly clear but it appears to be something that you would label as “progressive”. Never mind that it actually isn’t, let’s not quibble, the most important thing is it’s not futile. Vince Cable is after all an MP and presumably he might get re-elected.
    We on the other hand want to re-build a distinctively working class and socialist movement. Its more ambitious and its more difficult. Is that small? Yes it is. But if its a choice between that and what you want, you’ll be surprise to hear, its really not too hard a choice to make.

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  52. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    You’re absolutely right Ilm glad to say I have absolutely nothing in common with a group that is stupid enough to call itself ‘Permanent Revolution’.

    The point you studiously choose to ignore though is this. You are lightning quick to criticise others, the latest being the Green Party shouldn’t be touched with a bargepole cos it has ‘no significant support in the workers’ movement’ (sic).

    So lets hear of the significant support on the workers movement (sic) a group called Permanent Revolution enjoys. If its your ambition presumably you have some successes to cite otherwise you must be even more stupid than the name you gave your group. And surely you’ve attracted some people to your cause, how small is small, a couple of dozen and how much effort was put into reaching that almighty number.

    Until you can criticise others with at least a modicum of credibility can’t you do the real world a favour and stick to student unionpoliticking where you belong.

    Mark P

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  53. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    billj, I think it’s perfectly obvious what Mark P wants. The same thing that all the stalinist-turned-liberals always wanted- to make sure we never get anywhere near socialism.

    What reminds me most of the miserable days of student politics is Mark P sniping that revolutionaries have got it all wrong and really we should make do with what the world has to offer us currently.

    Just because people don’t agree with us, doesn’t necessarily make us wrong. Personally I’d rather not vote than vote for Vince Cable and I’d cut off my own limbs before I used them to vote for the Green Party.

    I think permanent revolution is an excellent name for a trotskyist group- well done for thinking up something original; in general their PR comrades argue politics in a consistent and honest way- which is a lot more than can be said for much of the left.

    Why is the AWL candidate missing from the list at the start of this post?

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  54. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    “Why is the AWL candidate missing from the list at the start of this post?”

    Because most of us would cut off own own limbs before we used them to vote for the AWL.

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  55. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Oh here we go again. So the quaintly named ‘Alliance for Workers Liberty’ are going to ensure we get somewhere near socialism are they? Unlike the rest of us.

    So given your organisation and its predecessors have been wasting your time on your particular version of this venture for several decades perhaps unlike the group that hilariously calls itself ‘Permanent Revolution’ you could catalogue all your successes and soaring membership. As the rest of us have been getting it so woefully wrong all this time its obvious you must have been picking up thousands of recruits, building a significant base in working class communities as the masses realise the errors of our ways. Can’t wait to hear the report of your all your successes.

    Mark P

    PS Oh and you arrogant wotsit don’t presume I’m happy with the world as it is, its just like 99.9% of the population I find the idea that groups laughingly calling themselves ‘Permanent Revolution’ or ‘Alliance for Workers Liberty’ are going to change anything outside of a student union meeting.

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  56. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Mark P. You seem to be missing the fact that PR and AWL aren’t political parties, they are small groups of activists united round common sets of ideas, who agree to do something with them. We generally don’t aim to build ‘mass support in working class communities’ -whatever that even means, mostly we aim to win the already existing organs of the class to our politics and our ideas; we try to change the course of class struggle for the better. There are plenty of examples of both groups doing that.

    It will have largely passed you by since you are uninterested in actually doing anything to change the world. Respect isn’t a political party in any meaningful sense, it’s merely a galloway election machine. To compare it in any way to the many tiny trotskyist groups is stupidity of the highest order.

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  57. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Hey the “hilariously named” Mark P is bitter and twisted. Wouldn’t you be with Vince Cable as your radical alternative?

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  58. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Small groups? Well you;re certainly right there, tiny might be more accurate. And so glad to hear that your dismal success rate in building mass support in working class communities is because you can;t be bothered. As for winning \existing organs of the class to our politics and ides’ (sic), of course the far left trade unions and sections of the Labour Party gagging for the overthrow of capitalism, I forgot about your victories in that department.

    Yes and the first outside left party since the CP to elect and MP and councillors, to compare Respect with tiny TRotskyist groups certainly is stupidity of the highest order. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Oh and Bill J when you’re not busy with your tiny Trotskyist group down the student union I suggest you learn o stop putting words in others mouths. I specifically said I would vote for Vince Cable in his constituency where Labour hasn’t a hope. He is not my ‘radical alternative’. Yours of course I;d never need to vote for as according to your co-thinker Martin you’re not interested in building ‘mass support in working class communities’. Better stick to the students union then where you belong.

    Mark P

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  59. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    I actually think that Martin Ohr has a valid point- querying why the AWL candidate isn’t mentioned above. If the AWL are willing to endorse the other candidates- from Respect and the SP and the Greens- I think it is pretty churlish of us not to extend them the same courtesy.
    Who are you standing, and where? Is it a seat where the left could get a decent vote?

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  60. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    Didn’t the AWL call for a vote for the pro war execrable Labour candidate Oona King in Bethnal Green & Bow in 2005? I presume that they also endorsed Roger Godsiff MP in Birmingham Sparkbrook, as they could not bring themselves to call for a vote for Salma Yaqoob.

    I mean if it was all based on programme presented to the electorate as Martin Ohr argues, and even given their rabid and unprincipled hostility to voting for George Galloway, then surely they should have called for a vote for Bethnal Green and Bow Communist League candidate and one time Trotskyist Celia Pugh? She surely had as much right and credibility to argue for left votes as the the AWL are doing now.

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  61. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    RoBM – Respect has a policy of backing credible candidates of the left. The AWL fall down on both points.

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  62. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    TLC and PE- I thought you might spot the irony dripping from my post… but it is interesting that Martin appears to want his candidate to be on a list associating them with Salma and George!
    I look forward to seeing mad-dog Denham campaigning for Salma on the streets of Sparkbrook…

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  63. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    I did spot the irony RobM – just wanted to rub the salt into the gaping sores.

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  64. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Make up your mind Mark P, I thought I could “quote you on that”, worried that your man won’t make it to parliament for the new term?

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  65. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Bill like most of the far left you show a bewildering inability to distinguish tactics from strategy.

    I am happy to be quoted that if I lived in VInce Cable’s constituency I would vote for him in preference to a no-hope Labour candidature and a Tory. Thats whats called tactical voting.

    You then claim, on my behalf, that this is my ‘radical alternative’. No, its no such thing. I;m looking forward to Salma Yaqoob being elected, she would represent the kind of radical alternative I believe in.

    Who would represent yours? Oh I forgot, according to your co-thinker the hapless Martin Ohr ” We generally don’t aim to build ‘mass support in working class communities’ -whatever that even means.” So no chance of anyone standing.

    And thanks to the hapless Ohr again for pointing out this means theres nothing in common between Respect and tiny trotskyist groups like yours, and his. Thank goodness for that.

    Mark P

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  66. JimPage Avatar
    JimPage

    AWL are standing in Camberwell and Peckham against Harman, F.Y.I

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  67. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    Preumably that’s Harriet, not the ghost of a dishonest apparatchik recently passed.

    she would represent the kind of radical alternative I believe in.
    That would be not very radical.

    When tactics are generalised, they are a strategy. Given your support for tactically voting for the least offensive bourgeois candidate has been ongoing for a generation, I think it’s fair to call it strategic.

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  68. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    And your strategy would be?

    Oh I forgot, some utterly meaningless guff about revolutionary socialism that a few middle class students might imbibe, and even that lot don’t seem to find it very attractive nowadays do they?

    Mark P

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  69. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Whereas your strategy is to vote Vince Cable and abuse the left. Hardly original. In fact so unoriginal you can’t even think up your own insults. For god’s sake student jokes! Please try harder.

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  70. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    My current strategy would be to try to avoid responding to comments with nothing substantial to say. Or is that a tactic?

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  71. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Bill I’ll stop making jokes about the hilarity that is a group calling itself ‘Permanent Revolution’ when you can provide any evidence whatsoever to prove why a tiny Trotskyist group of no more than a handful of members should be taken at all seriously.

    And you really need to get over the pomposity problem. Abusing an irrelevance has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘abuse the left’. As the hapless Martin Ohr helpfully pointed out comparing Respect ‘in any way to the many tiny trotskyist groups is stupidity of the highest order. ‘. I;m insulting you and your ilk who are thankfully a tiny part of the left.

    And ‘Skidmarx’ those who make a career out of mouthing off about revolutionary socialism without achieving anything wrote the textbook for having nothing substantial to say.

    Mark P

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  72. Lobby Ludd Avatar
    Lobby Ludd

    All well and good, Mark P, but what’s so impressive about the size of the flagpole you have nailed your colours to?

    (And yes, I am aware of the imagery.)

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  73. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    In a word, or 5, Salma Yaqoob on Question Time.
    Mark P

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  74. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Here is an updated list of signatories:
    Nick Bird (Lowestoft)
    Duncan Chapel (NUJ)
    Andrew Collingwood (Green Party)
    Raphie de Santos (Scottish Socialist Party)
    Sam Feeney (Unison)
    Alf Filer (Harrow UAF)
    Gregor Gall (University of Hertfordshire)
    Stephen Hall (Wigan, Leigh & Makerfield People’s Alliance)
    Aaron Kiely (Kent Uni.)
    Nick Long (Lewisham)
    Jim Monaghan (Open University)
    Miles Mothershead
    John Nicholson
    Declan O’Neill
    Kay Phillips
    Andy Richards (Brighton Unison and Respect)
    Clive Searle
    Norma Turner
    Steve West (RMT, Manchester)
    Leanne Wood AM/AC (Plaid Cymru)

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  75. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    RobM, I think there might be further reasons why the AWL isn’t mentioned in the list of candidates.

    One is that Jill Mountford is not the best placed person to be a left candidate in that constituency: Nick Wrack and others have stood time after time in that on behalf of Respect and, earlier, the Socialist Alliance. Very recently, Nick was the NO2EU candidate in London and Respect campaigned hard for him in that constituency, with Respect-branded materials. Nick or another Respect candidate would be much stronger than Jill and, of course, there’s a good chance that would get an even better vote as a candidate of SP/CPB’s socialist coalition, since it would be easier to mobilise more people.

    Second, the candidates named above are not just on the left, they strongly demonstrate the practical representation and cooperation of the left. All of these candidates are backed by campaigns into which other left forces also pour their energies. The AWL does not have that sort of relationship with the rest of the left, partly because of its leadership’s Zionism, refusal to call for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Iraq, equation of late abortion with infanticide (http://bit.ly/6D6acp), neutrality on nuclear power and other fringe views.

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  76. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    I think some left candidates of struggle in the lection is a valid tactic but as always the left gets things back to front here.

    What we need vitally is campaigning unity to begin winning significant victories, against job cuts, service cuts and other attacks and to rebuild the combativity and strength of working class organisations.

    Merely presenting people with a list of candidates and policies to support is no way forward. The policies and candidates need to be decided organically.

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  77. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Jason, all the people who support this statement also support local struggles and, indeed, these candidates have leading roles as activists. There’s no counterposition between them.

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  78. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    “Merely presenting people with a list of candidates and policies to support is no way forward. The policies and candidates need to be decided organically.”

    But Jason neglects to remind us that his organisation will not be backing candidates of struggle at all but simply backing something called the Labour Party.

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  79. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    There is no counterposition to them necessarily but the distinction I am trying to make is that to either stand in elections or critically support someone standing the tactic should be one designed to mobilise and organise campaigning direct action by the working class.

    Standing in elections has one aim and one aim only- to seek out, organise and channel this class activity to achieve strength in the workplaces, streets and communities so that we can take power into the hands of ordinary working class people. Where we have the resources and where it can aid the struggle standing revolutionary candidates in elections can be an useful tactic.

    Where we cannot but there are candidates standing on a struggle platform and where support for that electoral struggle can aid the extra-parliamentary one socialists may support it- I think many of the left candidates on this list may deserve such a tactic if and only if they pass the test of mobilising and increasing action.

    But even there we socialists do not conceal our views and are sharply critical of limitations and put forward what is really needed in a clear and concrete manner.

    You may agree with all I say here but it does seem to contradict supporting Green candidates in my opinion.

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  80. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Hi tlc as you have the power to read the future perhaps you should apply to go on one of the many paranormal programs shown on subscription TV (my partner sometimes watches them I’m afraid).

    I think we will almost certainly support candidates of struggle in the coming general election as we supported them before.

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  81. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    “I think we will almost certainly support candidates of struggle in the coming general election as we supported them before.”

    I didn’t gaze into the future but have interpreted the oft-repeated comments of PR supporetrs on this and other sites. It appears that your candidates of struggle will be programatically selected by the most narrow of definitions to rule most of the left out.. Your Mancunian side-kick Billj has already ruled out supporting Caroline Lucas. But seems more than happy to back the anti-struggle candidates of New Labour.

    I’m glad you seem to be showing more sense.

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  82. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    It would be interesting, tic, to know what working class struggle Caroline Lucas has ever led. Maybe for better salaries/expenses in the EU parliament?

    Duncan’s impressive new list – there is almost 20 of them – doesn’t seem to have many Socialist Resistance members. Why ever is that?

    Duncan’s sister party in Ireland meanwhile is pushing through wage cuts, 20% for teachers for example over 18 months, and similar cuts for the unemployed and disabled. Once the Green Party gets into power I think we know what to expect.

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  83. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    First time I’ve ever been called a Mancunian. Or a side kick. As Jason points out, we have supported candidates of struggle before. I’m struggling to see them on this list however. As for all the rubbish about voting Labour, GG advocates it, hadn’t you noticed?

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  84. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    Stuart said “Duncan’s sister party in Ireland meanwhile is pushing through wage cuts, 20% for teachers for example over 18 months,”
    Stuart what evidence AT ALL do you have that supporters of the Fourth International in Ireland are doing this?! Or even have any elected representitives in a position to do so.
    By the same token, Permanent Revolutions co-thinkers in France recently called for the restoration of the monarchy…

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  85. greendealmanchester Avatar
    greendealmanchester

    Those who are trying to narrow the list are missing the point. To make any progress as a leftgreen bloc it is necessary to build a broad coalition, united by a minimal platform. There won’t / can’t be agreement on everything, but there will be enough to build common action on. The minimal shared platform is to get greater mobilisation and greater representation, while recognising the limits of the latter.
    The coalition so constructed isn’t static. (For example – you can campaign with George Galloway against the war and still campaign for political prisoners in Iran.) As the conjuncture develops and shifts then so does the nature of the leftgreen bloc.
    The coalition does have to be sufficiently broad if it is to make any impact (beyond the paper sellers of the 4th International fractions – by the way we should all be supporting Hugo Chávez’s call for a fifth international) and in so doing the struggle begins for a real realignment.
    And by the way the one thing we don’t have is time – this has to happen now and happen with a clear and decisive praxis that is anything but sectarian.

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  86. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    “There won’t / can’t be agreement on everything, but there will be enough to build common action on. ”

    We should concentrate on this -common action.

    I don’t have to agree to vote Green to take action alongside trade unionists, protestors and many others including members of the Green party.

    A constant focus on elections at the expense of action is a problem of the British left. Where we already have a strong camapign it may well be standing in an election can strengthen it but this whole argument gets thingd back to front.

    PS Stuart refers I think to the Green party not the 4th international

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  87. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    Jason, how so? Duncan is not in the Greens (a fact Stuart knows as he refers to him being in SR)so ‘sister party’ must refer to either a (non-existant) sibling of Respect in Ireland or to the small Socialist Democracy group.

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  88. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    You’re being perverse, of course the FI are not pushing through cuts. If Stuart did mean to claim that, then its demonstrably wrong. If however, he was referring to the Greens but got mixed up then its not.

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  89. Gayle O'Donovan Avatar
    Gayle O’Donovan

    Sorry to interrupt guys, but just to reply to Stuarts comment:”It would be interesting, tic, to know what working class struggle Caroline Lucas has ever led. Maybe for better salaries/expenses in the EU parliament?”

    •Green party MEP’s, have campaigned against the anti-worker provisions of the European Services Directive , and for the reduction of working hours.

    The Labour Party opposed the introduction of Thatcher’s anti-union laws, but New Labour in government now enforces most of them.

    The Green Party has consistently opposed such laws and will seek their repeal at the earliest opportunity. The Green Party Trades Union Group is affiliated to the Campaign for the Repeal of the Anti-Trade Union laws

    Also, Climate change is the biggest threat to the international working class and we are at the front of the fight against it…one of the only parties that truely are. We believe that the health and prosperity of people is not possible without the health of the planet. We are the ones opposing carbon markets, deforestation and false solutions such as biofuels while Labour and the other big brands continue to sell us out.

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  90. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Stuart’s comment is mistaken and misleading. It’s sloppy, even for him, for suggest that the Irish Green party is a sister party to Respect, the party I am a member of.

    There are substantial differences between the difference between different Green parties in Europe: some are left, other right; some pro-Lisbon Treaty, others against; most in the European Green party, but not all. If you read the criticisms of British Green of that the Irish Green party is doing, then you’ll see it’s quite mistaken to transpose the politics of one green party onto another, any more than you can do that with socialist, communist, nationalist, social democratic parties.

    But this statement doesn’t endorse the Irish Green party, or the Green party in England and Wales: it endorses those Green candidates around which most of the left in those constituencies can united.

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  91. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    By “sister party”, Duncan, I meant the party you were supporting in the general election – the Green Party amongst others.

    Of course the Green Parties vary across Europe – according to whether they are part of Government coalitions or not. Once in power all this “left talk” is quickly dumped. Thus the German Greens, very left in opposition, were instrumental in breaking the post war taboo on German troops serving outside Germany ie in re-establishing its imperialist role in Bosnia and Afghanistan.

    There is no doubt that the day the British Greens enter coalition with the Tories or Labour on a national level, they will dump all these pro-TU policies. They are designed to win over gullible people like Duncan. Once in power they will follow the Irish and German example.

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  92. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Stuart, politics in Europe is profoundly local. The policies of those two Green parties differ, and in the same way the continent’s socialist, social democratic and communist parties differ. I consider it quite ironic that you warn that the Greens could go into coalition with Labour, since you’ll be calling for people to vote Labour against almost all the people on this list. But the reality is that, were any of these Green Left members elected, they will not be going into coalition with Labour.

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  93. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    First time I’ve ever been called a Mancunian. Or a side kick. As Jason points out, we have supported candidates of struggle before. I’m struggling to see them on this list however. As for all the rubbish about voting Labour, GG advocates it, hadn’t you noticed?

    Well you’ve hung around Manchester long enough to earn that title bill. The fact that you would support New Labour over Salma Yaqoob, New Labour over Galloway, New Labour over Lucas, New Labour over Phillips just goes to show how abstract and irrelevant your politics are.

    You’ll back ‘candidates of struggle’ but only when they fulfil some abstract criteria dreamt up in the fantasy world of Permanent Revolution. So you conclude that there are no ‘candidates of struggle’ and back New Labour – even when the left are standing. Pathetic politics.

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  94. tlc Avatar
    tlc

    The first paragraph above should have had speech marks around it as it was written by Billj to whom I was responding.

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  95. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    TLC was responding to BIllJ- however it is somewhat inaccurate.

    We supported various candidates of struggle throughout the years whether Socialist Alliance candidates, Dave Nellist, various other candidates,save our schools candidates, Scottish Socialist Party, Forward Wales and others.

    A substantial minority of us supported Galloway in the general election after he was expelled from Labour.

    I struggle to think of any time when the left are standing unless of course you are counting Green or Respect as left- a moot point.

    What is clear though is we are very happy to work with Greens, with Respect, with many others in joint campaigns. We have done so in antifascist work, in antideportation campaigns, on picket lines, in communities.

    We are also not against (critical) supporting Respect candidates whee thye have a substantial base of working class support, though there is a range of opinion in PR on this- whioch is all well and good we don”t all have to agree on everything after all!

    But we do not agree with the Respect project- the disssolving of the SA to chase middle class votes was a mistake in my opinion.

    But again we can agree to disagree whilst standing to shoulder on the picket line or antifascist demo or antiwar events.

    Let’s create a movement.

    Finally on a personal note we (my partner and I) are involved in a cmapaign to save a local adoption society through whom we adopted our son- see http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=198235743506&ref=mf

    any support most welcome

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  96. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    “disssolving of the SA to chase middle class votes was a mistake in my opinion. ”
    Yes, it would have been if that is what had happened! But then you lot had already flounced out of the SA on a flimsy pretext a while before anyway so are in no position to lecture.

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  97. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    The ‘flimsy pretext’ was the very same tactics, the orientation to Galloway’s peace and justice coalition idea.

    I think Workers Power (as we were then) were probably slightly premature to leave when we did- I would have been for making the warnings but staying in to fight a while longer. However, it would have only been a matter of a few months.

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  98. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Well fair enough, I don’t find anything wrong with being called a Mancunian it was just unusual that’s all.
    As Jason says Rob’s got a point on the SA, the sectarians in Workers Power – they’re still in it btw – I know everyone won’t agree with me there (lol) – wanted out desperately and were looking for any excuse.
    That’s not to say we would have joined Respect, we wouldn’t have, but as I say i think you’ve got a point.
    On GG again, myself and others think we should have voted for him in Tower Hamlets at the time. As for now, I think probably not, although there could be a discussion over GG, but obviously not over the others. They are not working class candidates or socialists. Neither are the Greens. Whether or not we would support New Labour over them is debatable. Possibly of course, but not necessarily that would depend on the circumstances.
    OK you object to our electoral tactics TLC, but why the need for the bile? So we don’t agree who to vote for? Elections only come around every 5 years and they don’t determine anything anyway. The anarchists have certainly got a point on that one.

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  99. ger francis Avatar
    ger francis

    So, after all that pious ultra left bleating, the massed ranks of whatever bill’s outfit is called, if they existed in Birmingham, would call for vote for the Labour candidate in Hall Green, a warmonger, against the most high profile anti-war and left wing figure in the city who has a real chance of winning the seat. Thankfully you are irrelevant. Your only political worth, from what I can make out, is to provide amusement. But you do it well. (Your line about ‘the sectarians in Workers Power’ made me laugh out loud). Congratulations.

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  100. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    So during the mayoral election in London you supported an anti-war and left wing figure rather than the Labour candidate? Congratulations on your consistency.

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  101. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    Bill J, is it that you don’t agree on who to vote for or don’t know who to vote for? If you don’t support Salma or Abjol and you may or may not support the Labour candidate, so that means that you might well advocate abstention? Great leadership for the working class, congratulations!

    And Skiddypants, the only debate in the London mayoral was about who was the most credible of the anti-war and left wing candidates. You backed the least credible who was rewarded with a minuscule vote – ironically the SWP would have got more votes had it stood in its own name on a revolutionary socialist programme.

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  102. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Given that I’m not in Birmingham I’m obviously cautious about telling people in Birmingham what to do. Its only an election after all. What’s wrong with that?
    But of course, I only advocate supporting working class and socialist organisations. Respect is not a working class or socialist organisation, from what its advocates, Ger Francis etc. keep saying that’s the whole point of it. I don’t agree with that point. So I don’t support it. That’s really not that complicated is it?

    @ Ger Francis
    I knew it would make you laugh out loud – that’s why I put (lol) – the acronym for laugh out loud after it. Happy?

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  103. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    Prinkipo Exile – that’s helpful and unprovocative of you. Of course in an AV system it was perfectly open to anyone to back the official Respect candidate without it affecting the outcome.

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  104. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    On what grounds do you provoke things further Skiddy? You know very well that the pre-split NC ONLY agreed to back a mayoral candidate if the Tories were NOT a threat. The tories clearly were a threat as they won.

    Nor is the mayoral voting system AV.

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  105. Gayle O'Donovan Avatar
    Gayle O’Donovan

    Oh Bill and Stuart …wish you would stop hogging blogs like this. You have no intention of discussing anything, your opinions are fixed…its almost a waste of effort talking to you about issues like this – surley you two can talk to each other at your meetings?

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  106. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    Gayle O’Donovan – make more comments here and you might redress the balance. I’m sure that would make Liam happier as his site stats went up as well.
    A quick look at you blog shows you attacking the Manchester Alternative for standing in the general election because only Respect or the Greens have a chance of winning, yet finish by saying we have to take a long-term view. Some contradiction?(Leaving aside the claim that Respect and the Greens stand for 80% of the same things, or whether both organisations have a tendency to exaggerate their chances of winning).

    Prinkipo Exile – you obviously need to look up “provoke” in the dictionary. No I’m not aware of what you claim, don’t really believe it’s the simple truth, and you know very well that it wasn’t people voting for the official Respect candidate Lindsey German as first preference that lost Labour the election, and that the refusal of the Renewalniks to support her was part of a cynical factional game.

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  107. Gayle O'Donovan Avatar
    Gayle O’Donovan

    “this is why I will do what I can to support a real alternative that truly brings together groups on the left. We have already worked with some of the people involved in the Manchester Alternative on different campaigns; Their intentions are honourable and I wish them well, but it would be disingenuous of me to ignore my concerns” – from my blog

    I wasn’t attacking the Manchester Alternative, was challenging the bizarre notion that some left groups have about showing up so close to an election and thinking they can actually stand a chance of winning either in the locals or nationals when in reality these projects can cause allot of harm.

    Point is they haven’t picked any candidates yet… and are not likely to do so until the end of January. In the area I am standing it is 40% to the Greens and 41% to Labour…hardly exaggerating and Kay Philips has a very credible vote in Cheetham Hill – she came third last time. Greens actually came third in the Euro elections here, about 2% behind the Liberals. Anyway just wish the left could get its act together and give people a credible alternative…not a rushed half-assed alternative.

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  108. jim jay Avatar
    jim jay

    Stuart “Of course the Green Parties vary across Europe – according to whether they are part of Government coalitions or not. Once in power all this “left talk” is quickly dumped.”

    This is not the case.

    In Italy the Greens were part of the government coalition in the cabinet with prodi, the prc et al and were the most consistently left part of that coalition. Even the PRC was wobbling all over the place.

    The fact is some European Green Parties are more left-wing than others – only pointing to the right wing ones and saying that’s what they are all “really” like isn’t analysis, it’s akin to pointing to the worst aspects of left groupings and saying that’s what all left-wingers are about the whole time.

    The Greens in England and Wales are regarded as a far left party by many of its European sisters, and with good reason, but whilst there are still those full of bile and sectarianism towards the party on the hard left in this country many Green Party members are going to keep it, and it’s ideas, at arms length.

    If you don’t want to influence a block of thousands of progressive, politically engaged activists then fine, I’m not sure you’ve got much to offer anyway, but the Greens need friends to its left to strengthen them politically or it will be far harder to keep them from slipping to the right in the future.

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  109. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    Yes, it is quite true that the Italian Greens were part of the Prodi Government, a government that supported putting more troops into Afghanistan and attacked the Italian workers. I am not sure how this makes them “left”.

    As far as I know only one Senator consistently voted against sending the troops to Afghanistan was Senator Franco Turigliatto, a member of the PRC and a supporter of the Fourth International. He was expelled from the PRC for his opposition.

    The Greens had I think 10 senators – how many of these Jim voted consistently against the deployment of troops and against the doubling in size of the US base at Vicenza? The voting figures in key votes in the Senate would show they voted for Prodi.

    But I am sure if I am wrong Jim Jay can give us the names, references and articles where we can see how the Greens voted against these measures. Over to you Jim.

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  110. Copenhagen and Christmas; Carnival of Socialism #45 « Though Cowards Flinch

    […] is an extended argument about the future of the Left over at Liam MacUaid’s place, following the “Back the Left” concept put forward by various individuals. Dave Osler […]

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  111. jim jay Avatar
    jim jay

    It makes them left stuart because although they were in government they opposed those things. Far from being pulled to the right they consistently opposed troop deployments, new nato bases, etc – whilst some PRC reps actually voted for some of this stuff.

    The prodi government fell apart because it was unable to keep the left on board – the Greens were the left of the left in cabinet particularly.

    You can look it up though you lazy thing. It might do you good to base your arguments on facts for a change.

    Your thesis was that the Greens talk left until they are in government when they magic into rightwingers – it’s an argument you’ve based on taking facts you think fit your argument and ignoring those that do not. That’s naughty!

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  112. Stuart King Avatar
    Stuart King

    So clearly Jim has no evidence that “they (the Greens) opposed those things” or he would have presented it. On key votes in the Senate Prodi relied on Green votes to keep him in office on his programme – lazy Jim can check that on wikipedia.

    Of course the point is the Prodi government, led by a Christian Democrat, was a disaster for the left in Italy. Its attacks on the workers, and its imperialist foreign policy led the way for the triumph of Berlosconi. All the parties that joined this bourgeois government, PRC, Greens, played a role in this defeat.

    The point of this debate is how socialists influence the most progressive and socialist elements in the British Green Party. Do we do it by painting up the Greens as some radical socialist movement. Or do we “say what is”, that it is a bourgeois party that will follow in the footsteps of its European counterparts.

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  113. Derek Wall Avatar
    Derek Wall

    or do we work in a tiny ultra left group and tell people to vote New Labour?

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  114. Gayle O'Donovan Avatar
    Gayle O’Donovan

    Stuart all you seem to have are straw man arguements. Fact is even if the Italian Green Party were all that Stuart tried to make out, it still would have absolutely no bearing on the Greens Party in this country.

    The world is peppered with examples of corrupt screwed up Labour Parties(here for example,Ireland,the US etc etc) but he ommitts this when calling for a vote for them; this daft argument is selectively only used against the Greens here!

    Also as was pointed out PR have no backing from the working class they claim to campaign for.

    I’m off to find a PR group somewhere else in the world and pin all their crap on the UK PR keyboard warriors
    🙂

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  115. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    The thing about the Greens is that they are a single issue grouping with no sociological theory. They always go right because they cannot betray their base in class terms. It would be foolish for them not to enter a coalition with whatever government threw them a bone on the environment and none of their voters would punish them for it. Respect on the other hand if it entered a pro-war government or a pro-zionist government or a pro-cuts government would instantly lose its electoral base.

    Respect rightly calls for a vote for its own candidates but in solidarity with the mass of the working class where there is not an alternative, serious, socialist, anti-war, anti-cuts candidate it makes it plain that it is in favour of the return of labour and is not indifferent as to whether the tories get in. However, not just in solidarity but also because in governmet building the alternative will be easier as New Labour carries out cuts, continues with the war and blusters over the environment undermining its own coalition as it faces the consequences of the wasted past 12 years. The Tories in power will have a mandate to attack and New Labourites will be able to talk a good fight as usual.

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  116. Nick Bird Avatar
    Nick Bird

    David, not wanting to repeat all the arguments about voting Labour again, but I wish you would be more accurate regarding Respect policy. I was not at the Respect conference but the motions that were carried are freely available on the Respect website.

    Nowhere in the motion on electoral strategy, or any other motion that I can see, is there a call for a general Labour vote. It does state “where there are good Labour MPs who deserve this support, we will back them” but it also says that about the Greens.

    It may be your opinion and George Galloway’s opinion and indeed other Respect leaders’ opinions that we should generally vote Labour with a few exceptions, but it is not Respect policy. Had they wanted it to be they could have easily put a motion to conference to that effect.

    You are correct that if Respect entered a pro-war, pro-cuts government it would lose its base, and I fail to see how calling for the return of such a government is much different. I will certainly not be voting Labour and giving it a mandate to attack the public sector, in which I am employed.

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  117. Derek Wall Avatar
    Derek Wall

    Just finishing two books on green politics, I have been active in green politics for thirty years, its not a single issue…oh well being insulted by those who know nothing about your politics is what blog comments are all about….hey even did my doctorate on the political sociology of a green movement…..spent plenty of times debating the agency needed to bring about green politics, but hey if David Ellis knows best I must have just dreamt this.

    Even taught some environmental sociology courses….oh but they don’t exist!

    Well David will never read anything on green politics he doesn’t need to! and I guess environmental issues like climate change don’t matter.

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  118. Gayle O'Donovan Avatar
    Gayle O’Donovan

    David Ellis, the Green Party is not a single issue party…that is daft. You are basing that on the what exactley? the name? Are Labour only concerned with employoment policy(yeah right)?

    Tired of this mole-whacking.

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  119. Dirty Red Bandana Avatar
    Dirty Red Bandana

    Sorry David but you are talking rubbish about the Green Party in the UK. If we want to talk single issue, then lets talk anti-capitalism. Of course, it is a multiplicity of issues and the Green Party reflects this as much as Respect but before different constituencies.

    However, the Green Party has more to its membership base than anti-capitalists, though large areas of the activist core are clearly in this tradition. There is an older tradition of radical environmentalism that also raised the questions of social justice with different organizational methods and priorities from the anti-capitalists in the GPEW. This leads to some unevenness in the composition of the GPEW and in its political attitude to even the question of whether to consider itself ‘left’.

    The fact that the left is in the ascendant in the GPEW is partly about the activist composition of the organization and also the recognition that three other factors are at work in the wider world. The first is that Labour’s electoral base is decomposing; the second is that the permanent war and economic catastrophe decouples layers of people from their previous political loyalties; the third is that there is a powerful militancy in the movement for action over climate change.

    If this sounds like the political direction of Respect, it is because it is. There are obvious differences but some striking similarities hence the recognition that tactical and occasional policy agreements are possible.

    The problem for the likes of PR and the ‘orthodox left’ (whatever such an ahistorical label can mean) is that they remain stuck in dead letters rather than breathing analysis. The attitude to the Green Party is a perfect example.

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  120. greendealmanchester Avatar
    greendealmanchester

    This should be about making alliances that while imperfect are united around fundamentals. This should be about identifiying those fundamentals in plain words. This should be about creating a momentum that challenges the dominant neoliberal, growth fixated consensus and showing that a green future where people aren’t exploited isn’t just better but can work.
    It is not about ‘my fraction is better than yours’, nor is it about searching for difference, fine shades of who did what when.
    It isn’t about denouncing betrayal but about creating new possibilities of actually making things change.
    The whole point about an alliance is that it is composed of people who don’t all have the same line – but of people who can agree on enough to engage in shared action.
    And I’m afraid it has to include not just Respect and the Greens but those remaining socialists in the Labour Party.
    If you can’t see this then you’ve been selling the paper for too long!
    Oh Antonio Gramsci where are you when we need you so?
    (cue another diatribe ???)

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