Duncan Chapel is a member of the Socialist Resistance editorial board. He has submitted these thoughts on the current pre-conference discussion in the SWP. It overlaps considerably with a piece I am writing for the upcoming issue of the magazine with the working title “Left unity: surveying the wreckage”.

War declared on the John Rees-Lindsey German faction: impending split in the British SWP?

December 28th, 2009

The faction fight in the SWP, which pits the majority led by Alex Callinicos and Martin Smith against the Left Platform led by John Rees and Lindsey German, is utterly depressing, for several reasons. First it is a reflection of the generally depressed and demoralised state of the whole of the British left, although of course with its own specific characteristics.

Second, whatever the ultra-factional vultures on the fringes of the far left may think, it is also depressing that the main organisation of the revolutionary left finds itself in such factional disarray. That is bad news for everyone; the very poor turn out for the recent Stop the War Coalition demonstration testifies to that.

Third, this whole sorry mess, which has included the sidelining of the Socialist Alliance in the early part of the decade, and the split in Respect and its fallout inside the SWP, was utterly avoidable.

If the SWP leadership in particular, but also the Socialist Party leadership, had been less rigid in their political conceptions, if they had shown more openness to political pluralism as demonstrated by international developments like the NPA in France and the Left Bloc in Portugal, the Red Green Alliance in Denmark and the Freedom and Solidarity Party (ÖDP) in Turkey, it could have turned out very different. Indeed, the SWP also had the opportunity to learn from the Revolutionary Communist League (LCR) in France, which the SWP’s organisation in France (SPEB) was part of. Not only did the League allow the right of minority tendencies but also the right of women and LGBT members to self-organise, in addition to an autonomous youth organisation. It is also very important to consider the respectful commitment to political debate that LCR showed to smaller organisations like SPEB not by “recruiting” them but merging with them. Several years ago there was a rather different discussion when the International Socialist Group in Britain was invited to join the SWP. It didn’t join because tendencies in the SWP wouldn’t have the same rights as SPEB enjoyed in the LCR.

Below we explain why, but first to some of the all-too-familiar the specifics of what’s currently going on inside the SWP.

Bureaucratic repression

From the contributions in the internal discussion bulletin number 2, it’s clear that the majority are doing everything possible to organisationally harass the minority. First, the accusations of factionalism based on intercepted emails.

The SWP does not allow factions outside of the 3-month discussion period; anyone having discussions about the possibility of forming a faction inside the 3-month period it open to accusations of breeching the constitution. So the Rees-German minority is accused of disloyal factionalism by sending emails to one another!

At this point though we have to say something that the Left Platform have to think about : John Rees and Lindsay German are the victims of an internal regime and an external policy that they were the upholders of when they were indeed in the majority, in fact the two central leaders, themselves. For example, the exclusion of John Rees from the Central Committee at the time of the 2009 conference was indeed an utter scandal. But it stems from the policy of excluding minorities from the CC that Rees and German of course defended in 2007 when it was a question of whether John Molyneux could be on the CC.

Members of the minority have been told to close down their websites. Most of all the majority leadership is doing everything possible to minimise the representation of the Left Platform, by for example branches and districts refusing to allocate any delegates to the minority, CC member standing as ordinary delegates to exclude minority representation etc etc. This is all documented in the article by Lindsey German in preconference discussion bulletin no 2.

The aim of minimising the representation of the minority at the national conference is very familiar to anyone who knows anything about the recent history of the sectarian left internationally. In a normally functioning democratic centralist organisation it would be elementary to allow the Left Platform adequate representation to express themselves fully, to represent their strength (or lack of it) inside the party, and to go into the debates in adequate detail. This is not what the Callinicos-Smith leadership have in mind. They intend to try to crush and humiliate the minority, to try to demoralise its supporters, and probably to expel the leadership of the Left Platform. This is absolutely typical of the way in which sectarian ‘Trotskyist’ groups have behaved through Gerry Healy, Jack Barnes, Pierre Lambert and all their ilk. Alex Callinicos finds himself in bad company.

Something else that the Left Platform leadership should think about is this: an organisation that has an informal policy of suggesting to members who have differences that they might like to take a six-month leave of absence, in the hope they will leave, is not really preparing a democratic internal life and a healthy attitude to discussion and differences.

The political debate

All the merit in the political debate is entirely with the Left Platform. The main documents of the platform accuse the leadership of retreating from the more open that the SWP tried to develop at the star of the decade, when it made its turn to the STWC, the Socialist Alliance and Globalise Resistance. The platform says that the majority leadership want to downgrade united front work like the STWC and instead replace it with a narrowly conceived ‘Right to Work’ campaign, of the type which those active in the 1970s will remember. Most of all the Platform’s documents make very apposite points on the question of the united front, pointing out that Trotsky never limited the united front to being a mere ‘tactic’, but explained it was a ‘policy’ with strategic significance. These explanations by the Platform are all correct.

But in the formal terms of the debate do not in themselves explain very much, for two reasons. Neither side deals with the fact that for many SWP rank-and-file members, as well as a section of the leadership around Chris Harman, the ‘open’ turn to the Socialist Alliance was very unpopular. And the Platform stops short of dealing with the real strategic question that is staring them in the face, and which the experience of the NPA in France and the Left Bloc in Portugal demonstrates: the importance of trying to create a broad socialist/left alternative at a national political level, using the ‘united fronts’ like the STWC as bases of support for a global political alternative. The Socialist Alliance and Respect both failed because the SWP refused to take t
he step of fighting for a real pluralistic national political alternative, and instead, when the chips were down, tried to channel everything through the SWP – especially during the height of the anti-war movement in 2003-4.

In effect the SWP adopted a half-way policy of building the Socialist Alliance and Respect as ‘united fronts of a special type’. But they were not. They were political blocs, with global socialist policies. They could not work if the attempt was made control them by the SWP, or at least to subject them to SWP veto.

The proof of the pudding is in the Scottish eating. At first the SWP abstained from the Scottish Socialist Party, but then went into it as a minority faction almost from day 1. By the middle of 2002 the atmosphere between the SWP faction and the SSP majority was icy, with the SWP trying to pick every conceivable little thing to create differences. Then the SWP made the utterly opportunistic and disastrous decision to back Sheridan’s break away Scottish Socialist Solidarity, which of course is now in the process of disappearing.

It is not even clear if the extent of the factionalism by the SWP in the SSP was decided in London, or whether – like the scorpion that stings the frog that is carrying him across the water – it was just in the nature of the rank and file militants who couldn’t help themselves. The decision to back Sheridan’s breakaway was of course decided in London and an act of cynical folly.

In this period it is impossible for Marxist organisations to proceed on the basis of a ‘no risk’, defence of existing acquisitions, policy. Building a broad socialist formation like the New Anticapitalist Party in France, or the Left Bloc in Portugal – or indeed participating in Die Linke in Germany – involves major risks. That arises from the nature of the period. But attempting to avoid the risks inherent in creating broad political alternatives to the left, in defence of the working class and the planet, is full of risks itself.

The period and the party

The left in Britain – even more than elsewhere – seems completely at a loss in the face of the massive economic crisis that has hit Western and especially Anglo-Saxon capitalism. This is obviously combining with a gigantic world environmental crisis, so that the issue is not now stopping climate change, but limiting it and deciding who will pay the cost of adaption. In this situation the right, and even the far right, has the initiative, especially at the electoral level.

Britain faces the biggest attack on working class living standards, the welfare state and democratic rights since the 1970s. To try to respond to that with a few more paper sales and a few more recruits is idiotic.

The tasks facing Marxists is that of building a political force to the left of social democracy that seems like a realistic alternative to millions. This cannot and will not be done by the SWP on its own or by the Socialist Party on its own. These frameworks are too politically narrow.

At the same time it is abstentionist to say that broader political alternatives are impossible without a rise in the level of the class struggle. Such devices are excuses that enable factional leaderships to get on with day-to-day propaganda routine: sell the paper, hold forums, recruit. In the case of the Callinicos-Smith leadership it’s a matter of ‘back to the bunker’, just as it was in 1994 for Peter Taaffe when Arthur Scargill vetoed the attempt by Militant Labour to join the SLP.

On the question of building a broad socialist alternative the SWP leadership now talks out of both sides of its mouth. Fulsome in its praise for ‘our comrades’ in the French NPA or the Portuguese Left Bloc, policies inspired by the same political methods in Britain fall foul of Alex Callinicos’ contemptuous ex-cathedra dismissal. A leadership content in its ability to issue tactical advice to anyone worldwide will have no difficulty erecting sectarian schemas in Britain.

A Spanish translation of this article is online at foro anticapitalista.

209 responses to “The period and the party”

  1. “All the merit in the political debate is entirely with the Left Platform”

    I think this is highly mistaken. But an understandable mistake for a reader outwith the SWP’s own political tradition, and not being attuned to the nuance.

    Thwere is considerable political difference between the two positions, and the left platform position woudl be one that would close down any possibility of the SWP becomming a healthier and happier organisation. And in particularly the left paltform defend the type of style of leadership, and arogant inablity to maintain long tern relations with the reat of the left that cuased the problems in Socilaist Slliance, and Respect in the first place.

    Whereas the cc majority position does open the possibility of allowing the cadre to have a more two-way relationship with the party apparatus.

    Of course, both positions ahousl be able to coexist whithin the same organisation.

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  2. Andy- isn’t a bit early in the day to be on the sherry?

    Thwere
    left paltform
    Socilaist Slliance
    ahousl be

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  3. I am a little surprised that such a shockingly bad article is on a otherwise political website.

    It manages to fail on three counts, misreading of the dynamic (and facts), lack of politics and failure to even mention the core issue – the relation between revolutionaries and the working class.

    On a basic fact – no member of the CC has stood as a delegate to conference. What Lindsey refers to is a number of workers in the national office being elected from their branches including (to cite South London as an example) the Branch Sec of Tooting SWP (also SWP designer), the deputy editor of the Journal, some one from Brixton branch committee who works in SWP finance office and one SW journalist.
    Nb. SWP full timers in “non organising roles” active in local branches have always been elected in this manner. There has been a relatively consistent number over the past few years. (organisers/student orgs / cc members lose membership of local structures as“national members”)

    Substance
    The substantive part of the article then drags on about organisational priorities after starting with the strange assertion that recent stop the war demos had shrunk simply because the SWP was less involved in building them. Creating a strange scenario where the turn out on demos can be read off from the level of commitment of branches.

    Even on this (fairly clearly explained) part of the debate you get it arse before face. The debate is about how the SWP operate inside united fronts whether the party members are foot soliders of campaigns controlled organisationally by gifted CC members or whether we can strengthen our work in campaign systematically by rebuilding local organisation and engaging in a more political way at all levels of campaigns.

    A defence of the top down control (or strong decisive leadership) which the article attacks is clearly articulated in the main Left Platform piece. The debate around Stop the War is in truth a side show from the main element of the debate

    Politics
    The biggest omission is the question around which the whole debate turns – how does the SWP relate to the economic crisis. Here is where the actual differences arise between the Stop the War model of a united front and the perspectives of the majority differ. The left platform argue that if the leadership fought hard enough they could build a stop the war type campaign to relate to the “political” fall out from the crisis – demos over expenses/banks are usually cited. The People before Profit charter is often quoted as a missed opportunity (what charter I hear you say?)
    The majority argue that the resistance to the recession can manifest itself in unexpected ways but is primarily based on out breaks of working class resistance. Therefore what is need is not a set piece united front (with national office etc) but a strengthening of our local organisation to intervene around work places, workers occupations, strikes and build up networks of “resistance and solidarity” out of them.

    The right to work campaign is there for seen as a way of giving these networks a bit more organisational shape. Pride of place is given to the interventions around Visteon, Vestas and the post.

    The minority would retort this is all fine but we need a bold initiative to start setting the agenda. To which the response is that on the question of working class resistance it is not that simple given our size and the existence and role of the TU bureaucracy.

    Your article does nothing to shed light on any of this instead banging on about radical left formations. – The one question on which there is no public disagreement between the left platform and the majority.

    How about a little politics rather then a fourth international wish list?

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  4. Cliffite got it right. It would be nice if there was serious engagement in this debate from those who choose to comment on it.

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  5. Cliffite has obviously missed the point. His crude syndicalist approach is obvious and this is the problem. It can be summed up as “If only we were all to adopt the Right to Work campaign as an all embracing answer and accept the SWP political leadership.” Any criticism is seen as sectarian and divisive and the issue of Left Unity can be LEFT FOR ANOTHER DAY!

    That is the crux of the problem. Why suddenly has the Right to Work campaign been taken out of the 1970’s filing cabinet and reopened? Did the SWP ever make a serious attempt to unite forces around the People’s Charter? Did they see it as an opportunity to build within the trade unions and work with other Left organisations in promoting a class based unifying strategy? No. They took one look at it, issued a few articles and dropped it as though it never existed.

    Were discussions initiated with other Left groups to bring them on board in the setting up of the Right To Work mark 2? If so no public announcements were issued to explore possibilities. Instead their priority is clearly to position the CC leadership in this 2010 Conference debate and to appear to be more militant in this trade union turn. The SWP CC initiated it and simply expected us all to follow obediantly. Well lets make it clear, ofcourse any initiatives to fight unemployment are welcomed and will be supported but is the intention to build a democratic united front or to instead simply recruit and sell more papers? That recipe may result in new members when old ones are expelled but does not build a vibrant class based challenge to Capitalism based on a united Left.

    The same methodology runs through many other campaigns and fails to unify forces as a long term strategy. Democratic and pluralistic structures, open debate, exchange of ideas and experiences will all strengthen militants and win over more supporters well beyond a few paper sales by one group.

    This is not a wish list, it is a tried and tested method that works, as shown elsewhere. Perhaps before setting up campaigns, open debate with others based on honest political assessments is needed. Unfortunately this is unlikely to come out of the 2010 SWP conference. That is the real trajedy , which the rest of us are not prepared to just observe.

    Irrespective of the Conference outcome, there are others on the Left who will continue to build for the unity that is required. This is a political neccessity not a wish list. We have a responsability to pursue it.

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  6. I don’t agree with the article either. What’s depressing about the SWP faction fight? Nothing from what I can see. I think its about time that the SWPs internal divisions came to light. That can only be a positive thing for the left in general, as indeed can the pretty rapid erosion of the SWPs organisational hegemony currently underway. The stultifying control exercised by the SWP leadership, of whatever stripe, over both the internal life of their organisation, and by extension the left in general is collapsing. About time too.
    As for the debate. What’s striking to the outsider is really how little there is between the two sides. The perspectives document starts out asserting that the economy is collapsing Great Depression style. When its not. Both sides share this catastrophist analysis. They then debate how they will respond to a Great Depression that is not happening. They’ve even got their numbers wrong, but neither side has the gumption to point out they can’t even get the maths right.
    There’s a good reason for that. In fact doing the maths doesn’t matter, because the perspective is really pretty unimportant. It only sets the background for the familiar theme of sect building. One side says they should prioritise this. The other side says they should prioritise that. Big deal. Meanwhile whoever is control bureaucratically stitches the whole thing up.
    Hopefully with the next round of splits – after this one that is – there will be a little more substance. Forward to the next split!

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  7. Is there any evidence whatsoever in this almost surreally mistaken article for the proposition that a large section of the rank-and-file ‘around chris harman’ were opposed to the open turn around SA? Its absolute bunkum. Similarly the claim that there was something shocking about John Rees coming off the CC. Why? Its utterly bizarre from start to finish.

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  8. Here is Harman on the NPA over the summer:

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/2009/09/npa.htm

    The mistakes a left could make but which the comrades in France did not, is clearly aimed at the mistakes we in the SWP made around Respect. Mistakes which those around left platform absolutely refuse to recognise.

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  9. And which the leadership refuse to recognise. That is the whole point of the demonisation of the “Left Faction”. Palm the blame off on them. The disasterous Respect turn was after all a create of the entire CC, including both sides of the current split. But rather than an honest accounting better to blame a few convenient saps. Denounce them as top down, hierarchical leaders, while expelling their rank and file supporters. No one inside the SWP noticed the irony?

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  10. Bill J the trouble is that there is no-one represented in these discussions who believe the Respect turn was disasterous. That may explain why you persistantly misread these arguments.

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  11. “simply recruit and sell more papers?”

    This has never defined the SWP method in united fronts. It certainly was not the case in SA, STW or indeed Respect. The political problems had nothing to do with this. Its incredible how low the political level of this discussion actually is.

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  12. “If only we were all to adopt the Right to Work campaign as an all embracing answer and accept the SWP political leadership.”

    I think my dear boy it is you who has missed the point. Their is no expection of the rest of the left falling in behind a 1970’s style right to work campaign or infact of launching such a campaign at all.

    The moves towards uniting sections of the left are small but important (and in many respects a seperate question). The stuff around the electorial negotiations, the attempts to do stuff around the Peoples Charter – which the SWP did commit to before it was put to one side by the RMT during the elections. (The charter I refered to above was a seperate one launched by the SWP itself in 2008)

    The point I was making above is that the majority see the resistance to the recession coming primarily from the work place. The sparks of resistance leading up to the post strike and the post strike itself are seen as proof of this. Supporting, generalising and linking up the new forces they through up to strengethen future resistance is seen as the key task facing the SWP. The emphasis on rebuilding the basic units of the party as interventionist and habitable is seen as being an important precondidition.

    The right to work conference (probably a bad name given the assosiations) in 2009 was seen as a way of bringing together working class activists with community campaigners, students, activists etc to give some organisational form to this work beyond the SWP. It was always seen as a tentative iniative as thinks like the NSSN, Peoples Charter were already in existance trying to find different ways of relating to the recession. More importantly how to work with and against the TU’s around thinks like the demo outside the Labour demo was a bit of a (re)learning curve in a new senario.

    The second conference looks to be a bit more developed in pulling together different threads of resistance into a discussion and building “networks of solidarity and resistance” that can unite activists from existing campaigns with workers radicalised from the leeds bins, visteon and vestas etc.

    The key think is where we start by systematically trying to build roots with working class activists and support local and national disputes or whether launching an over arching united front to work through would give the sort of punch that StWc did at its height.

    I personally believe that RtW is a very slow process and rebuilding a base for SWP branches in the local work places/relationships to reps etc is quite a task, The left has got very used to relating to radicalised people coming on to demo’s etc. Rebuilding work place links is a different task and one that doesn’t start from getting the fragments of the left together in a room.

    None of this is to underplay the continuing role of united campaigns around the war, BNP or the possibility of some sort of left unity in the elections. Or (on the flip side) the need to address the questions if membership retention and development that decent branches can lead.

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  13. “Bill J the trouble is that there is no-one represented in these discussions who believe the Respect turn was disasterous. That may explain why you persistantly misread these arguments.”

    I didn’t ever say anything else. The Respect turn was disastrous. None of the parties recognise the fact. Funnily enough I remember chatting to Cliffite and Clare Solomon, just before the split with Galloway, where they were singing the praises of George Galloway and boasting about having an MP. How times change eh?
    So instead of an honest accounting they (Martin Smith, Callinicos and co) want to put the blame on the personal failings of Rees, German and co. When in fact these personal failings are failings of the entire regime. Its called divide and rule. Some sucker has to carry the can. What could be clearer?
    There is nothing of substance between the two sides. That’s why it will only be after the next split, not this one, that we may something approaching a more substantial explanation of where the SWP have gone wrong over the last period.
    Meanwhile the bureaucracy get on with expelling the rank and file of the opposition, while carrying on about democracy. Pretty funny huh?

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  14. I’d always thought of Duncan as one of the more astute of SR’s writers, but this is particularly poor. Fourth Internationalists, more than anyone else, should know that you can’t understand what’s really going on simply by reading the bulletins. Do SR really know no-one at all in the SWP who they can discuss things with?

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  15. What the abstract “left unity on no clear basis” contributors share with the “more splits” cheerleaders of the Weekly Worker and BillJ’s group is the lack of a serious attempt at analysis of the state of the class struggle.

    One of the strengths of the SWP’s tradition is that, however imperfect its analysis of the period, it tried to seriously to relate to developments in the class struggle. You could argue that it took its eye off the ball when it became pre-occupied with Stop the War or Respect because while these were important interventions, the key political demand of both (Stop the Wars) was not sufficient to mobilise politically significant layers of the working class.

    Billj at least puts his finger on the main point of difference by repeating his group’s view that capitalism is not about to enter another Great Depression. Unfortunately, by excluding the “political” from “political economy” they end up chasing a rather academic magic formula to explain everything when what is needed is some more concrete analysis of the class struggle. For example, how does the left react to a situation where the final demise of the post war settlement combines with a big shift in the centre of gravity of British Capital not just to Finance but also overseas? And are we seeing a replay of the late 19th century when the clash of imperialists led ultimately to the bloody 20th century?

    I agree with many of the criticisms of the way the SWP conducts itself, but analysis of real political differences (if they do exist) would be much more useful than who emailled whom – or cheering on fights like boys in a school playground.

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  16. I don’t think the WW do cheer on splits. Neither do PR. I do. This is my personal opinion. You might want to assert some distinction between economy and political economy. I think you’re wrong in your criticisms of PR. But at least we do look at the economy. If you want the latest stats they are here;

    Click to access trademonitor.pdf

    What it shows is that trade and industrial production had recovered about half of their fall by October 09. ” World industrial production is still 6.5% below the peak level reached in March 2008 and 2.4% down from October last year. However, it has risen continuously since the trough in March 2009 by an accumulated 6.4%.”
    In November trade and industrial production both accelerated. So its likely that by the end of the year, in terms of the world at least, the world economy will have recovered about two thirds of its fall.
    The series for industrial production and trade used by the SWP as the basis for their perspective excludes China. The largest trader and industrial producer in the world. Neither side seems bothered. Lol.
    What does that mean in terms of political economy? It means that the economy next year will be one recovering from recession, still scarred by it, but exiting it. I would have thought that mattered. Evidently not.

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  17. want to put the blame on the personal failings of Rees, German and co
    There is zero evidence of this other then some peoples desperate urge to avoid any kind of serious political discussion. Sadly its now clear that this is true of SR as well (and over the last few years I had developed a bit of respect for them). I suspect though that this has to do with a political perspective in which the far left adopts the position of a ginger group for politicians who stand a chance of election. Again neccessity and virtue. But can I be the only one who senses a tremendous irony in this adoptation of the left platform’s position? Or perhaps it isn’t ironic at all.

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  18. On the other things one suspects there is a bit of rallying the troops going on inside SR. But it really is a comical article.

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  19. . Do SR really know no-one at all in the SWP who they can discuss things with?

    I’d just like to emphasis that I’m always up for a pint. I mean if someones buying.

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  20. This is not a debate about the way forward for SWP but gaining an understanding of how the lack of political analysis and debate has brought us all to the sad position of a divided Marxist and Socialist movement.

    If we are to ensure that the internal ravages of the SWP do not occur and do not have a disastrous effect on the campaigns that are the property of all, then we do need to ensure a new approach.

    For some it is about denying reality, for others it is about misinterpreting positions. For others it must be about the way forward, irrespective of their 2010 Conference.

    Yes the SWP divisions has a detrimental affect on all because their comrades can and do contribute positively to a range of campaigns. However it is not just about their paper sales and members. It is about all those actual and potential supporters who can be won over to Socialist politics through anti war, anti-racism , international and many other areas of activity, who may be detrimentally affected by sectarian developments.

    The challenges presented for class struggle politics requires a response which is lacking from either factions in the SWP. Hopefully others inside and outside of the SWP will see that an alternative can and must be built which is democratic in structure and principled in unity.

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  21. Except Alf, the SWP has never put paper sales or membership drives over united front work. Its quite simply a cheap polemical jibe when we ought to have more serious things to discuss.

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  22. Firstly, I think it should be known that this post is not the position of SR, because we have not discussed and voted on it. It is Duncan’s view on the divisions inside the SWP, which he essentially summarises – in my interpretation – as being centred on minor tactical questions, rather than the strategic “elephant in the room”: how to build a broad anti-capitalist party in England, on which neither side has much to offer.

    In fact, given the minor tactical differences in the SWP, you might ask why the need for a faction and indeed a faction fight. In my view, this is because the structures in the SWP appear to be unable to accommodate a debate on political differences even as trivial as the ones outlined in the documents. So, inevitably, the division has now evolved into one about breaches or alleged breaches of party rules and norms and the leadership’s actions in response to these breaches or alleged breaches.

    In the light of this, I don’t think that the statement in the posting “all the merit in the POLITICAL debate is entirely with the Left Platform” is justified (my emphasis).

    There is a lesson here about socialist democracy. But I have to say that my experience in the IMG and then the Socialist League would lead to the conclusion that while socialist democracy is a necessary condition for achieving positive outcomes from political debate in small organisations, it is not a sufficient condition.

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  23. When two bald men are fighting over a comb, one of them will eventually decide to sell the comb, the other will buy a wig.

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  24. Johng the issue is not paper sales or membership drives, and as said elsewhere, I recognise the hard work many of the cdes put into a whole range of campaigns in a positive way. In fact I am sorry if you misread what I said.
    The issue is how to go forward together and pull down the walls between the various groups? How to build principled unity and mutual respect, whilst at the same time recognising the need for debates , discussion and inclusivity.
    A starting point is shared discussions at leadership and membership level on strategies, campaigns and policy debates. These should also be printed in each others newspapers and bulletins, leading to common statements being issued.
    What ever is the outcome of the SWP conference, the cdes can not ignore the fact that certain internal procedures and decisions they take do have a negative impact on the wider Left and campaigning groups.

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  25. “The rigidity of its political organisation came not from the dictatorial brain of Lenin but from a less distinguished source – the Tsarist police state”. C. L. R. James 1963- Lenin and the Vanguard Party.
    James goes further, “I want to repeat, central to his ideas was never the party, never, never, never. It was the proletariat and the work he believed it and it alone could do. He believed that the Soviet state opened out immense new opportunities for the immense new responsibilities placed on the proletariat. That was and is the central doctrine of Leninism. And to this his ideas and activities about the party were strictly subordinate. Let us get that clear.”

    Perhaps we shall all have this in mind when considering the debates on internal organization and the struggles for Socialism.

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1963/lenin-vanguard.htm

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  26. If an organisation was riddled with cronyism, bullying and all sorts, but still managed to succeed in doing whatever it was supposed to do, then the issue of poor internal relationships is just that and no more. This happens in all organisations, revolutionary or otherwise. The SWP’s organisational structure I believe has remained the same through its good times and bad times. Discussions on party democracy and internal organisational structures are somewhat moot and not particularly revealing with regards to the main issue of declining political participation by the public. It would be a sad state of affairs indeed if it was only the SWP that held the key to political activism. The SWP and its members can go do whatever they feel is worthwhile, but I’m sure the fate of the left doesn’t depend on them.

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  27. Unfortunately for Socialist Resistence, I think the project of the ‘broad anti-capitalist party’ (their elephant, not ours) does rather depend on the SWP playing ball. One of the mistakes in Duncan’s article is the assumption that the Left Platform are friendlier to this project than the SWP leadership.

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  28. I almost agree with chjh – unfortunately for all of us, neither faction in the SWP shows any sign of learning any lessons from the RESPECT split apart from “sod that for a game of soldiers”. (This is the wrong lesson.)

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  29. cool as CLR James was in many ways, I am not convinced that he came up with an alternative to Leninism (or a certain sort of Leninism) that worked.

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  30. This is an articulate charge laid at the feet of the SWP of which it is guilty :”The proof of the pudding is in the Scottish eating. At first the SWP abstained from the Scottish Socialist Party, but then went into it as a minority faction almost from day 1. By the middle of 2002 the atmosphere between the SWP faction and the SSP majority was icy, with the SWP trying to pick every conceivable little thing to create differences. Then the SWP made the utterly opportunistic and disastrous decision to back Sheridan’s break away Scottish Socialist Solidarity, which of course is now in the process of disappearing.”

    That the SWP was granted much more democratic space in the SSP (as a “permanent faction”) than it ever allows its own party minorities suggest that there is indeed another way to do political business. That the SWP ran a factional operation in the SSP from Day 1 suggests that there is indeed something perverse in the way that the SWP chooses to operate.

    The “elephant in the room” is the sort of new party project that is beckoning — a perspective that the SWP has been aggressively hostile towards. If the SWP thinks it has the right to sabotage these new party projects, then it needs to prove both to its own members and outsiders than it operates a level of politics which is more cogent, democratic and sustainable than those projects the SWP sort to wreck.

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  31. Derek, you are probably correct on that. My concern is that in building a marxist party that can effectively agitate for Socialism and unify the working class, we need to review our approach to party building which breaks from bad practices.
    The conservatism of others, both inside and outside of the SWP needs to be challenged. We can not just hope that the answers will come down from on high and consider it sacrilige to question traditional practices.
    We need to draw on the positives as well as the negatives and reinvigorate the movement, drawing in new forces as well as working with those around us.
    The differences within the SWP may be tactical rather than ideological, which is why it is sad that such energy is being wasted. It may reflect something more fundamental, who knows? However what ever happens we need to continue to build initiatives which open up new prospects for wider unity. I still remain optimistic about this. There is much to be done and we need to go forward inspite of the situation.

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  32. Hope you dont mind but I have reposted this excellent article on the Respect Supporters Blog with a direct link back to this page.

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  33. Phil – perhaps the lesson is that the time when Respect might be a broad anti-capitalist party has come to an end, and the errors the SWP made were in trying to hold onto a perspective where it was when that time had gone.

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  34. Neil – before you repost it, you might want to enquire what the missing word is after open:
    The main documents of the platform accuse the leadership of retreating from the more open that the SWP tried to develop at the star of the decade,
    as well as correcting “star” to “start” [unless nominations are open…]

    I’m also not sure about this passage:
    the Socialist Alliance and Respect as ‘united fronts of a special type’. But they were not. They were political blocs, with global socialist policies.
    To the extent that Respect has had global socialist policies, recently that has just been on paper to keep you and SR happy. Bill J can remind us that the SWP decided not to make socialism part of the RESPECT acronym, its insertion later just part of a cynical attempt to talk left.

    Philip Ward – In fact, given the minor tactical differences in the SWP, you might ask why the need for a faction and indeed a faction fight. In my view, this is because the structures in the SWP appear to be unable to accommodate a debate on political differences even as trivial as the ones outlined in the documents.
    Why indeed? Perhaps the need is for those outside the SWP to find something to talk about, when the Left Platform doesn’t command noticeable support in the party, and represents not much more than a nostalgia for things past, maybe? It just seems contradictory to claim that a factional debate is taking place because the SWP can’t cope with debate.
    I also find this statement curious:
    Firstly, I think it should be known that this post is not the position of SR, because we have not discussed and voted on it.
    People seem to be able to take the statements of leading SWP members as a guide to what the party thinks, even when they have not voted on the particular words. This would seem to indicate that SR, although much smaller than the SWP, is much more heterogenous, and unable to have leading members speak to its positions without a prior vote. What holds it together on a common perspective? Also I notice in the piece the statement The Socialist Alliance and Respect both failed. Does this mean that Cde. Chapel sees no future for Respect? Do you agree with him? And what does the answer to that question portend for the future of SR therein?

    Bradley – at the end of your comment you descend into incoherence. I don’t know the details of what happened in the SSP, but you seem determined to castigate the SWP in every way possible, so one wonders why you wish to be involved in a discussion on its future when you see no merit in it at all.

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  35. Skidmarx, all you’re really saying is that when the SWP leadership doesn’t like the way one of their projects is going, they just dump it – and hang all the other activists involved in that project. I totally agree: recently, Globalise Resistance and the Left Alternative/ Party/ List can be added to the growing number of abandoned “projects”.

    The building of a broad anti-capitalist party is a long-term project, in response to the drawn-out break-up of traditional social democracy and its ever-rightwards drift. Unfortunately, the idea of a long-term commitment seems alien to the SWP leadership, for various reasons which merit further investigation.

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  36. I’m not sure if that’s what I’m really saying. I’d tend to agree with chjh that the broad anti-capitalist party is your shibboleth not theirs.

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  37. Skidmarx:

    On the issue of the faction fight: what I was trying to say was that the response in the SWP to the development of minor political differences, was to have a faction fight that has degenerated into disputes over disciplinary and organisational issues. This is not uncommon on the far left, and in my opinion typifies an inability to accommodate a debate about minor TACTICAL differences.

    If Socialist Resistance is more heterogeneous than the SWP then I am very pleased about that. The present difficutlies of the SWP are in part a result of their misreading of leninism and their privileging of political uniformity. This stifles independent thought and is ultimately extremely dangerous: I’ve heard many people say they wouldn’t much like to live in a post-revolutionary society in which the SWP (with its current approach) was the “leading party”, and I concur with them.

    Because the SWP is unhealthily homogeneous the statements of the leading members are more likely to be a guide to what the party thinks than is the case with leading members of Socialist Resistance (of which I am not one). And yes, it is not possible for a leading member of SR to publicly say “such and such is the position of SR” without a prior vote. That does not stop them saying what they think.

    I am suprised to hear that the SWP allows its leading members to formulate and propagate a political line for the party AND SAY THAT IT IS THE PARTY’S POSITION (which is what you imply) without a prior vote. Perhaps that is another source of its current problems.

    And yes, we in SR are allowed to say in public where we disagree with one another and where we disagree with the SR position, when it has taken one.

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  38. Philip Ward – thanks for answering the questions about the SWP (though not the one about Respect).
    I’m not saying that what a leading member says is automatically treated as gospel, but to agree with you that its relative homegenity means it is a good guide, especially when others don’t come out in disagreement. I don’t see why it is unhealthy for a Leninist party to be generally united on a broad range of political issues.

    I’ll try and further answer your point about abandoned projects: the Left List/Alternative was an immediate tactical response to the minority in Respect stealing the name, and it was right to abandon it after it failed. Golbalise Resistance I’m not particularly familiar with the details of, it seemed try to be straddling the divide between anti-capitalist activists and conventional far left politics, a few months ago while discussing this on AVPS an SP member said it had been relatively succesful compared to their efforts.

    Back to the post.First another brief spellcheck accusations of breeching the constitution.That should be breaching. There does seem to be a vagueness about what an anti-capitalist party amounts to, and a lack of acknowledgement of any difference between the UK and other European countries. As far as I’m aware Portugal and France have always had substantial far left votes in recent years, a result of the legacies of 1974 and 1968 respectively. I notice in the Harman piece johng links to a complaint about the electoral system that echoes something Callinicos said in SW a while ago; I hope this isn’t going to become a major plank of SWP policy as it seems to me that bourgois electoral success is better treated as a reflection of class struggle rather than a dialectical interaction with it.
    On the anti-capitalist thing, there still seems to be an illusion that Respect is an anti-capitalist bloc, rather than a slightly unconventional reformist election machine with its roots in an anti-imperialist alliance. It certainly doesn’t seem comparble to the Left Bloc or the NPA. It would be nice if the SWP could complete the task of analysing its nature rather than as johng seems to wish putting it off to the indefinite future, as it now seems to stand in the way of any fundamental left re-groupment, using its influence to set up its own standards of credibilty for left candidates,and so distracting the left from serious discussions about unity. I’d have thought the priority in electoral terms should be to get agreement with the other significant force on the far left, the Socialist Party, but they seem to through up more barriers than the SWP.

    Why should the exclusion of John Rees from the CC be an “utter scandal”, if it is the belief that of the vast majority of the party that he was tactically inept and strategically misguided? And to harp on an old theme, isn’t it a little hypocritical to complain about the alleged use of e-mails when you’re poring over internal bulletins the SWP hasn’t chosen to publish?

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  39. Bradley’s oddly written mis-statement of what happened in Scotland misses out one essential fact: the ruin of the SSP came about because of a split in the majority ISM leadership, in which the SWP were innocent bystanders. Yes, we took a position on the split, but if we hadn’t it would have turned out just the same. Blaming the SWP for the Scottish tragedy is like blaming the band on the Titanic.

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  40. chjh none of us are innocent bystanders. If we do nothing to build for unity and do not act against sectarianism, then we are guilty of letting down the movement. If we refuse to pull down the walls but instead exclude opportunities for debate and expell cdes for merely disagreeing with the leadership, then those who vote for this position are guilty of letting the movement down.

    If we share common positions and agree to build common campaigns in the interest of the working class and build for a wider Left unity then fine. But if we use petty excuses to allow this division to worsen then we are failing in our duties as Socialists.

    The SSP are far from ruined, the Left on the south of the border could instead learn a few lessons from them and our cdes on the Continent.

    It is the inwardly looking anglo-saxon Left that questions need to be asked of and perhaps quickly.

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  41. Alf, in the specific matter of the internal split inside the ISM that led to the SSP exploding, the SWP were complete bystanders (as were Socialist Resistence supporters in Scotland). Neither my Scottish comrades, nor yours, played any part in the ISM breaking into two warring bodies – that was entirely due to reasons internal to the ISM.

    And speaking of comrades expelled for merely disagreeing with the leadership, what exactly happened to the long-standing Socialist Resistance supporters in Scotland who sided with Tommy Sheridan?

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  42. Re the cdes who sided with Sheridan I cant comment on the specifics as I was not involved. Nor privy to those debates at the time. I will leave that for others to comment on and no I am not ducking the issue either. I am just not prepared to make off the cuff comments on such a serious issue.
    The situation now is what concerns us. The lessons must be learnt so we go forward not backward. Where there are no differences then we should be seeking common grounds for joint editorial boards, joint discussions and joint work at all levels and respect differences where they occurr.
    Yes we may have all made errors in the past but it is the future we need to build for.

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  43. Skidmarx: obviously, a leninist party needs to be united on a broad range of political principles, but this is different from the SWP, which seems to be incapable of accommodating a difference in tactics over StWC etc.

    I never said anything about Respect: others can deal with that question.

    According to Wikipedia, in 1999, the Portguese lrft bloc polled 2.44% in the legislative elections. This is not a lot better than far left results in English parliamentary and Euro elections, even though they had the advantage of proportional representation – i.e. the prospect of getting people elected (they got 2 seats). What the BE has, though, is unity and perseverence, along with a number of significant achievements in parliament, esp on social issues.

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  44. Philip Ward – The post suggests that there isn’t that much difference over StWC within the SWP, and it seems to be the position of most of the SWP that the Left Platform’s strategy is one that hasn’t learned from Respect and is in any case more about personnel than politics(I am at a slight disadvantage here not wishing to read internal bulletins without permission), which is one reason why the demand that they be represented on the CC might reasonably be rejected.

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  45. SOYMB,Their blog on communist commotion says it all.History repeats.

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  46. […] Uaid details the ongoing SWP internal war that is mangling the far left in Britain at a time when it is already facing huge problems, […]

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  47. This is an important point by Philip Ward, on December 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm Said: “The building of a broad anti-capitalist party is a long-term project, in response to the drawn-out break-up of traditional social democracy and its ever-rightwards drift. Unfortunately, the idea of a long-term commitment seems alien to the SWP leadership, for various reasons which merit further investigation.”

    If anything marks off the SWP approach to politics this ready flip flop approach stands out. It’s almost an inability to project and plan for interventions strategically. The penchant for campaign surfing also seems relevant here.

    The context of the present situation is that the SWP finds that it has run out of places to flip and flop to.

    In the same sense it cannot analyse its own recent history objectively because this jumping about is such a standard that if an intervention doesn’t deliver a return quickly, then it is of no political use.So why care about the wreckage left behind as a consequence? It’s almost an ahistorical approach which is anathema to Marxism.

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  48. I don’t think the differences in the SWP are ‘minor’ or ‘tactical’. Here are my views recently posted on SUN:

    415.To be clear: references to big brother are not attempts to “blame george”. They in fact refer to objective difficulties. These arose because Respect was not doing well and there was therefore a desperate struggle to find some magic solution to the difficulties. These involved on the one hand Georges mistake with BB. And on the other hand a growing voluntarism on behalf of a section of the SWP. The refusal to actually discuss openly the problems that were emerging meant that when sporadic crisis occured all that could be done was to cover them up. This also went togeather with charecterising any discussion of objective difficulties with ’shifts to the right’, ‘passivity’ etc, etc. The voluntarism meant a politics of utter recklessness about the costs of splits in the movement.

    On the question of the united front and lessons: from that period to this there have been differences inside the SWP which relate to one section who never gave up on a voluntarist model and those who understood it was a mistake. When the Left Platform speak of the ‘abandonment of the united front’ what they mean is the abandonment of the Left List, the refusal to launch other initiatives without building any real basis for them etc. Their’s is the politics of proclamations. They counterpose to the politics of proclamations ‘passivity’ and being ‘inward looking’, any discussion of objective difficulties being treated as ‘retreat’. They remain firm in the belief that leadership is won with ringing declarations rather then patient work.

    It is in that sense classic ultra-leftism, but like all classic ultra-leftism, its form, substitutionalism is not incompatible with sudden lurches to the right.

    Thats why the current policy of the majority of re-building bridges, taking part in actually existing movements always, and launching new ones when actually possible, is the correct one. It has been hampered though by the paralyses engendered by a kind of internal warfare launched by those who refuse to break with these methods, and indeed, identify them as principles. There needs to be a much more open repudiation of these methods, methods which have been shown to be utterly disasterous.

    On the question of the relationship between united fronts and electoral work. I think it all depends. The SWP in its most successful work refused to treat the texts of the first four congresses of the third international as scripture. It also refused to treat Trotsky’s work as scripture. In the 1920s United Fronts involved a mass Communist Party approaching Mass Social Democratic Parties. In the 1930s Popular Frontism involved alliances between workers parties and bourgoise parties combined with a global schema in which ‘democratic nations’ (including the imperialist powers) confronted fascism. The principles are important. But the actual social and political terrain is so difference that mouthing the scripture is not enough.

    Principles have to be APPLIED and that implies thought. And there are no roadmaps of a situation which does not yet exist.

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  49. Just a quick note of thanks to comrades for all their comments on this article. As others have noted, it reflects a personal, and thus partial and incomplete, view. I guess that when SR develop its discussion – through something that Liam is drafting for the February issue of the magazine – some of the weaknesses in this article will be corrected.

    I think Andy’s opening comment is especially worthy of consideration. The idea that the CC majority are more plural and that the Faction’s leadership is more autonomous kind of feels right in the gut. However, that has to be balanced by the fact that the CC is not behaving in a pluralist way, or even a comradely way. And, of course, if the positions were reversed then the current leadership would also be able to make correct, if incomplete, criticisms. I am someone outside the SWP, and how the written debate unfolds is more significant for me; not only because it’s the firmest information but also because it shows how far there is a real political clarification on either side. It’s limited, but I think most folk would judge that there’s more accuracy in the Faction’s perspective than in the CC’s.

    In a brief article like this it’s hard to really give a nuanced analysis of the CC’s perspective. It’s too simplistic to say that the CC’s answer is to sell the paper rather than develop united fronts. And the reality is that there’s relative autonomy in some SWP branches, which are choc-a-bloc with people with great instincts. But it is fair to say that the Faction’s perspective is about developing an ecosystem in which the SWP is normally hegemonic, while the CC is retreating into a system of national initiative that’s tightly controlled, in the way that Right to Work is. That’s the sort of insulating of the party that we might identify with the downturn, and which does not relate to the opportunity for a new party.

    Someone suggested that the issue of the new party is the elephant in the room for SR more than it is for the SWP. That is true in an important way: the new party is the strategic orientation that underpins the foundations of SR, and for the SWP it’s now an expired party-building tactic. Respect has obviously had a good year, and the membership is perhaps triple what it was after the SWP split from the party. However, it’s highly likely that Respect is not going to be the national success it could have been if the SWP, SP and CPB had held their nerve. But the reality of the political situation is that there’s an increasing constituency for a class struggle electoral alternative to Labour. The SWP could play a massively positive role in drawing together that alliance: they really have a lot to offer. However, the SWP’s retreat won’t stop that recomposition. I’m pretty confident that SR, our friends in Respect and in the broad left, will all play our part in developing ever-closer unity – both electorally and in building an extra-parliamentary opposition. When that develops momentum constituency by constituency I expect that local SWP branches will start to engage with that unevenly, eventually, the CC will follow. I think the Faction’s analysis makes that easier to do, and the CC’s obstructs it.

    But, to come back to the start, this is just my hypothesis. I’m one person and SR is a small organisation. The whole left needs to understand the development of the SWP and, of course, the process of synthesising an real understanding of the SWP is our common task. That’s especially important because of the massive and largely positive role of the SWP. The SWP’s problems are real problems, of our movement and of our times: they are not just the reflection of clique break-ups. We should not take any pleasure in the SWP’s crisis. The best way we can ensure that the SWP maintains a positive momentum is to develop this discussion and to step up the opportunities for SWP branches to co-operate with others.

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  50. chjh asked “And speaking of comrades expelled for merely disagreeing with the leadership, what exactly happened to the long-standing Socialist Resistance supporters in Scotland who sided with Tommy Sheridan?” The answer, of course, is that no-one has ever been expelled from SR.

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  51. Come on,lets get real and down to the girth.What does the S.W.P.as a government have to offer the people.Myself i can only surmise,they do talk plenty about Leninism and some times Marx,so you do get their gist.But they don!t talk about our nature or our humanity and how we would fit into their Leninist government.

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  52. shug – I think your question is a little premature. And as to you previous link to the blog entry that says it all:
    Do you want to build a mass organization that genuinely works for change or do you want to use such an organization to build the party? You can’t do both because such goals are contradictory. That is the dilemma.
    No it isn’t.

    Duncan – I think what you say about Respect is contentious:
    Respect has obviously had a good year, and the membership is perhaps triple what it was after the SWP split from the party.
    This seems to be a comparison between the current claimed membership and the previous actual membership. Getting some more names on paper doth not a layer of activists create, particularly if it is mostly in the few remaining areas in which Respect has any existence.
    However, it’s highly likely that Respect is not going to be the national success it could have been if the SWP, SP and CPB had held their nerve.
    The first part of this is probably true , the second half I don’t even know what it means.
    I’m pretty confident that SR, our friends in Respect and in the broad left, will all play our part in developing ever-closer unity – both electorally and in building an extra-parliamentary opposition.
    I’m not. Respect was never a class struggle electoral alternative, and now seems to represent a brake on creating one. It’s only noticeable presence in the working-class movement seems to be the promotion of Jerry Hicks as an individual, while trying to ignore others on the Left if they don’t rush to his support, dovetailing their main electoral strategy.
    When that develops momentum constituency by constituency I expect that local SWP branches will start to engage with that unevenly, eventually, the CC will follow.
    Which generally renders this an entirely false perspective.

    johng – that all seems like a good idea, if the problem with the previous operation of the party was voluntarism and substitutionism (I hope I’m not suffering from overuseofismsism), then that seems like the sensible course back to reality.
    Incidentally when talking about BB at the time and somewhat after , I tended to defend it when talking with other ex-members who thought it a disaster in much the same way as I thought of the SWP’s involvement with Respect: it may not have worked out for the best, but maybe it was worth giving it a go. This was without knowing the internal dynamics of Respect at the time, and how this may have presaged Galloway’s desire to promote himself as the embodiment of Respect to the exclusion of the SWP.

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  53. shug – I apologise if I’ve misidentified you with the re-posting by Far Left Train Wreck.

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  54. “The whole left needs to understand the development of the SWP and, of course, the process of synthesising an real understanding of the SWP is our common task. That’s especially important because of the massive and largely positive role of the SWP. The SWP’s problems are real problems, of our movement and of our times: they are not just the reflection of clique break-ups” Duncan

    Lets get a degree of perspective here.

    The SWP, SP, SR and other like-minded adherents to one version or another of Trotskyism number no more than a few thousand in Britain.

    Not one of these organisations can point to anything like a base in a single working class community, with the localised exception of some SP electoral success in Coventry and Lewisham, neither of which have ever led to dynamic growth of the organisation, locally or nationally.

    It is likewise hard to detect any lasting impact of the SWP with the exceptions of the ANL/RAR and StWC. Both of which in large measure were successes in spite of the SWP’s politics, they were in every meaningful sense popular fronts, and as a consequence led to zero growth of the SWP.

    In 1990 the CPGB dissolved itself. The combined memberships of all these groups still amount to less than half of the CP at its dissolution. This is a testament to their collective failure.

    Yes there is a need to take the politics of the SWP and like groups seriously, bot only to learn lessons from their failure, not because they have any prospects for recovery or growth.

    Mark P

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  55. Hi skidmarx. Just to clarify what I meant:
    – My understanding is that after the split Respect had under 350 paid up members and now it’s over 900. 350 probably understated the number who thought they were in the party but had paid their dues into the old account. Either way 900 is more. The circulation is the paper is also up hugely over the last year.
    – By ‘if the SWP, SP and CPB had held their nerve’ I mean that it’s unfortunate that the initially positive reaction within those organisations, that it could be well worth the risk to join in the attempt to build Respect into broader than the Socialist Alliance, was not maintained and deepened.

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  56. Duncan – thank-you for your reply. One problem with any claimed successes for Respect is that failures are never acknowledged, so it is impossible to rely on self-publicity as the basis for any analysis.Where are the figures for the previous circulation of the paper? Was a one-off meeting in Birmingham where several hundred were sold included in the rise? Is the increased figure adjusted for the lack of a paper for several months over the summer?

    With the membership figures there are further questions. When Respect has shrunk to 350, the additional membership is presumably due to an entirely new selection of individuals joining. What makes you think they are going to stay, or even include many organisation builders who will promote further growth, rather than be those who sign up because they are entused at one public meeting, and are rarely if ever heard from again?

    As Respect has undergone a wholesale retreat into its fortresses (I might have used the word “ghetto”, but that would invite abuse that I was being Islamaphobic from the very low level of cadre that the Galloway wing of Respect attracted, another problem if it ever had pretensions to be self-sustaining and more than an electoral support group for a few leaders), its appeal to a broader (geographically and politcially) left constituency has become virtually non-existent, as far as I can see. How many of the new recruits are from left backgrounds?

    I know we’re unlikely to agree about whether the SWP did its best with Respect, but now that we-re agreed its not going to be a national success perhaps I might throw back most of what Mark P says above:
    There is a need to take the politics of Respect seriously, but only to learn lessons from their failure, not because they have any prospects for recovery or growth.

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  57. Firstly Skidmarx when you apply that dictum >

    “There is a need to take the politics of SWP seriously, but only to learn lessons from their failure, not because they have any prospects for recovery or growth.”

    to the SWP there might just be a smidgin of a chance your critcisms of Respect might be taken seriously. But your like are always great art dishing out critiques of others whilst being incapable of organisations they are a part of or support.

    Secondly, just by way of example hers my own criticism of Respect. It has a localised support it has failed to generalise. That localised support is significant and largely composed of a demographic unrepresented in traditional left organisations. In Salma Yaqoob it has the best single chance of an outside left victory at the next General Election. This would be a breakthrough of sorts, how significant remains to be seen, we are all capable of both making, and missing opportunities . As an organisation Respect remains fatally trapped in the moribund culture of the pre-existing left . This remains a substantial obstacle to any growth, any failure to address this will ensure its decline.

    Now how about you telling us honestly what you think are the weaknesses of any organisation you support. Its really not that hard.

    Mark P

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  58. Mark P,

    I often think you resemble a medieval penitent. The problem is that if scourging yourself was designed to get you to heaven, its very unclear what exactly your aim is. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

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  59. JohnG

    You are obviously unfamiliar with the habit of self-criticism. No big surprise there Trotskytites in general share the same affliction.

    Lightning quick to critiicise others they seem almost entirely incapable of analysing the deficiencies in their own organisations and politics . The SWP, for example, has existed in one form or another for sixty years. Its membership after all that effort amounts to less than half what the CPGB had when it finally dissolved itself in 1990. It has no significant base of support in a single working class community. Its two principle successes, the ANL/RAR and StWC were because it – correctly – adopted popular frontism. In neither case did this lead to any sort of growth of the SWP. The numbers who leave the SWP after a short time as members vastly outnumber, 10:1 is probably a conservative estimate, than stick with it.

    A bit of political honesty and self-criticism is required if you expect to be taken seriously as critics of everyone else. Is that really too much to ask?

    Mark P

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  60. THE SWP : What comes around goes around !

    I agree with various previous comments above that it is not necessarily a depressing state of affairs what is going on within the bowels of the SWP.

    What comes around goes around and it is about time these things were all brought to the surface and hopefully out into the open if that is what is going to happen.

    Meanwhile hopefully, HOPEFULLY this will create a great opportunity and opening for the rest of the Left to move on and move closer and UNITE unhindered by SWP irresponsibility, sabotage, damaging barbs, foolish manipulations and distortions and maybe the Left can start to reach out to more people while the SWP sort out it´s own crap.

    For to long the Left generally has suffererd greatly from the abusive behaviour and destructive actions of the SWP and for far too long has to a large extent tolerated it and all too easily forgiven it. This is an abusive relationship and should be seen as such. Let´s move on and leave the SWP to sort out it´s own shit of their very own making.

    Unite and fight and leave the SWP to sort out their own shite !

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  61. “A bit of political honesty and self-criticism is required if you expect to be taken seriously as critics of everyone else. Is that really too much to ask?”

    Of course it is. I’m a dirty trotsky-fascist. And therefore completely incapable of any self reflection or self criticism. Surely your aware of this Mark P? After all given your own enourmous honesty and self awarenness how could such a thing possibly escape you?

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  62. JohnG.

    What childish response which tells me all I need to know about your politics, so ta for that.

    Its a simple point. If you are going to be a serious critic you need if you are to be taken at all seriously the capacity for self-criticism. A fundamental characteristic of Trotskyism appears to be the ability to develop a critique of others’ failings but never their own.

    Thanks for confirming that at least.

    Mark P

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  63. The SWPs internal strife is great news. I and many thousands of working class socialists wish them a swift and fractious demise. They are an obstacle to working class power and socialism in England, its just a shame that no-one group/org on the left in England can develop roots and influence in the working class, but with the SWP in terminal decline and out of the way- the chances of that happening improve.

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  64. Mark P “Its two principle successes, the ANL/RAR and StWC were because it – correctly – adopted popular frontism”

    Oh dear! A right wing Eurocommunist critique of the SWP.
    They may have been the two principal sucesses in terms of building mass movements.
    But certainly not due to any unprincipled adoption of “popular frontism”.

    Southall, Lewisham and the million strong anti-war demonstration all posed a serious challenge to reformist methods.

    The main obstacle to party-building was the tendency to dissolve into the mass movement (in the case of the ANL) , or to seek to build a electoral bloc on something less than a socialist programme (StWC)
    Had the SWP-SP held the Socialist Alliance together, they could have swamped the smaller sects and built something more permanent out of it. Instead we now see at least 3 different unity initiatives competing with one another and a much weakened SWP.

    The SWP also made serious errors in the 80’s with Cliff’s downturn analysis and they failed to relate to the radicalisation in the L.P.
    Not to mention its abstentionist attitude to the revolutions in Central America and uncritical tail-ending of the intellectual wing of Solidarity in Poland.

    Then, when the CPGB broke up, Cliff was quoting the Hobsbawm-Temple Eurocommunist wing of the party as a vindication of his politics.
    Whereas the elements that reformed the CP-B were the most important part to salvage from the wreckage of the former Stalinist organisation.

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  65. Mark P seems sadly incapable of political dialogue. Lets hope the new year see’s more constructive relationships on the left.

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  66. I have to say, notwithstanding the complex issues of the SWP faction fight, which I’ll come to later, that Duncan’s artilce is way off beam on one of the key issues he cites even against the original, un-divided pre-split SWP – Scotland.

    It is absurd to accuse the SWP of ‘opportunism” in backing Solidarity in splitting from the SSP. There was no way the SSP could have possibly held together in face of the crossing of class lines by key elements of its leadership in backing the Murdoch press against Sheridan. A split was completely unavoidable, and the backing of both the SWP and the CWI grouping in Scotland for that split was entirely principled and appropriate. I speak as someone who is not a supporter of either group.

    This pandering to feminism, even the ‘radical’ kind that is thoroughly reactionary, by the ISG is one serious flaw that would put me off joining it, despite a great deal of sympathy for many of its other activities. There should have been no ‘inquisitition’ into the Murdoch press’ allegations about Sheridan’s personal life. Even if the allegations turned out to be 100% true – which is massively disputed in any case – there was nothing criminal involved and it was therefore a private matter and no business of the bourgeois press or anyone else. The response of the party should have been complete solidarity with the Sheridans in fighting the Murdoch attack in whatever way they saw fit, while keeping the party’s activities strictly seperate from the details of their defence campaign for practical reasons. Together with mobilising its base against the Murdoch press to the point that its minions should have feared the kind of response they recieved in Liverpool for their filthy attacks on the victims of the Hillsborough disaster. That was how a genuine workers party should have responded to the Sheridan case.

    But in context, these are the points made by the SWP and CWI in supporting Sheridan, and Duncan and the ISG are not going to attract people who may have criticisms of both these currents on other questions with a critique like this, that attacks them for something that they did right, albeit in dire circumstances when the choices were not easy.

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  67. Sorry, I mean Socialist Resistance, not the ISG. Same broad current, slightly different personnel and a new name. Easy mistake to make!

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  68. Some cdes appear once again to be missing the point. No, we should not clap at any possible demise of the SWP. That is sectarian and am sure that in one form or another they will continue. Which direction they go in and what lessons they may or may not learn from this present situation is another matter. We will all be the worse off if the SWP just disappear, nor will they.

    The issue is what we do? Do we simply fall into the trap of self accusatory comments or do we attempt to build what is needed for the movement? Do we recognise that we need to construct the basis for a unified Marxist leadership and a wider socialist alliance which is routed in the working class or do we just hope?

    The challenge is for us to ensure that we continue to enter in debate with all groups and to build on a more democratic footing various united front campaigns such as the UAF etc.

    Yes the SWP have made serious errors, along with the SP and others. However this must not hold us back from laying the groundwork for a more united
    Marxist and anti-capitalist formation. This road may require a series of different initiatives at many different levels and not be so clear cut as others would hope for. However we need to co-ordinate these steps and plan initiatives to bring wider forces together as part of the process.

    As long as we can agree to abide by a democratic set of structures within which this can take place then we can start to concretely show there is a way forward. Otherwise does it just remain a piece of history that we pour comments over .

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  69. In Broue’s history of the German Revolution there are some interesting passages on the impact of factional enmity between Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Radek which had its origins in Radek’s expulsion from the Social Democrats before the first world war and Rosa Luxemburgs support for that expulsion. Whats interesting about it is that when the contemporary reads such things the question isn’t “who was right and who was wrong”. The question is how could revolutionaries of such calibre have allowed such trivia to influence them seven years later in the midst of much more important events.

    There is a lesson there somewhere.

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  70. The comment by ID ” pandering to feminsism” is clearly out of order. Sheridan once said at a SWP Marxism Conference in London about the need to “keep the links on the chain strong to unite the movement”. How ironic that he later tried to use the chain to attack members of the movement.

    For too long certain so-called leaders with egos have been given too much leeway in our movement with no room for criticism allowed. We need to be less reliant on so-called heroes and more self reliant.

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  71. UPossibly we should be more critical of leaders. But that does not include the party conducting inquisitions into people’s personal lives, or collaborating with scumbags from the reactionary media on the basis of a congruent and hypocritcal puritanism. How dare you say my views are “out of order”? I think the views of Julie Bindel, who was praised in a lamentable article in Socialist Resistance magazine last summer and who authored an article in the Guardian a couple of years ago titled ‘Why I hate men’ are pretty out of order.

    This has nothing to do with working class politics, it does however have a great deal in common with the authoritarian and vile actions of this Labour government – Bindel is a key figure in drawing up repressive legislation against sex workers, among other things.

    People like that should not be conciliated and should be DRIVEN OUT of the left and labour movement. This is only relevant because of the influence of people like this in the destruction of the SSP, and (ABUSE DELETED. LIAM )
    So if you think my views are out of order, then tough. I think the views of the Whitehouse ‘radical feminist’ element in the SSP(and indeed elsewhere) are well out of order, and concretely led to the destruction of a promising, though flawed, working class party in Scotland. I think that is way out of order.

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  72. Prianikoff

    You really need to lose the habit of cliches masquerading as politics.

    The late 1970s ANL/RAR and StWC were tremendous successes as mass movements initiated by the SWP. They are testament to the fact that a small group of dedicated activists when they think big and make alliance-building the core of their politics can have an impact. But not even the most dogged SWP loyalist would claim they ” posed a serious challenge to reformist methods.” Whether you agree with the phrase or not they were in every serious regard popular fronts, the breadth of the movement was the key to their success. And afterwards, having failed to apply this strategic lesson and instead retreating to the cosy maxims of leninist party-building the SWP failed to grow.

    As for the CPB. This ageing group of Stalinists you describe as “the most important part to salvage from the wreckage of the former Stalinist organisation.” I can only presume this is some Trotskyist version of irony. This is a party that has stood still ever since 1989.

    And the hapless JohnG? He spectacularly fails to respond to the challenge of admitting to even a smidgin of self-criticism. Clearly incapable of thinking through the reasons why the SWP has so spectactularly failed to grow instead of criticising those parties, movements and traditions he is not a part of. And then he accuses me of not engaging in political dialogue. I’m more than happy to but on the basis of honest accounting not on your version of pumped up rhetoric. Come on its really not that difficult, stop criticising others for just a few moments and try accounting for why your own organisation and ideas aren’t the roaring success you;d presumably like them to be. Your inability to do this reveals a huge amount about your politics, thanks.

    Mark P

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  73. Mark P it is a pre-condition of engaging in dialogue to be able to read what people actually say. You seem incapable of doing this, preferring a set of grotesque sectarian stereotypes to any normal conversation. I’ve made fairly deep criticism’s of the SWP’s mistakes on this thread and on others. Your own bigotry about anyone to the left of you evidently makes it impossible for you even to read let alone engage in a dialogue. I simply don’t understand what your kind of sectarian nastiness brings to the left.

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  74. JohnG. You are insufferably pompous, which is sympotamtic of your politics.

    You join this thread, as you have done on countless other occasions to heap criticsm on others. No problem with that whatsoever. The issue is whether you are willing to conduct the same critical approach to the failings in your own politics and organisation. Your repeated refusal to do this is the real stuff of sectarianism, rather than the casual way you chuck that label as an insult.

    As to what brings me to the left, well I can thankfully admit it was nothing to do with the likes of you and the habit of confusing slogans for politics.

    Mark P

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  75. Mark P have you actually ever read a single comment anyone has ever made Mark P? Your own myopia and pomposity is simply breathtaking. Exactly what its based on is very unclear.

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  76. Duncan’s reply to the discusion made for refreshing reading, and corrected some of the problems with the original piece. I still think, though, that there’s a serious problem in simply relying on the written debate: it tells you nothing about the relative strengths of the two sides, and nothing about the dynamic of the debate.

    I was a bit surprised at this, though: the best way we can ensure that the SWP maintains a positive momentum is to develop this discussion and to step up the opportunities for SWP branches to co-operate with others. For two reasons. Firstly, who exactly is meant by ‘we’? Most SWP branches don’t have a local Respect branch (still less an SR branch) to co-operate with, so it’s unclear where this ‘unity at the base’ will come from.

    Secondly, most SWP branches don’t pass up on most opportunities to co-operate with others – we go looking for them, if anything. But those opportunities are thrown up by the struggle – they can’t simply be willed into being.

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  77. Mark P. “…..not even the most dogged SWP loyalist would claim they ” posed a serious challenge to reformist methods.” Whether you agree with the phrase or not they were in every serious regard popular fronts, the breadth of the movement was the key to their success.”

    Well yes, I agree that building these things as broad formations helped make them sucessful. But I was specifically referring to the major demos, without which, they wouldn’t have had half the impact.

    I was just re-reading some notes I wrote for the YCND in 1980 and think the way I expressed it at the time was actually spot on – (oooh I hate that phrase!)

    ” We need a mass popular movement against Nuclear Weapons involving school students, the unemployed, housewives, tenants, trade unionists and members of political parties… all political ideas will be put to the test in such a campaign, including liberalism, pacifism, religion, feminism and socialism. In the course of fighting to stop the missiles, we will see which works in practice”

    Damn I’m good…

    Mark P “the CPB. This ageing group of Stalinists..”

    Funny how the Euros hate the CP-B even more than us Trots!
    I was actually involved with a pretty hot young CP-B member not long after they reformed. But I wouldn’t make any concessions to their politics and used to wind her up about it all the time!
    We got on very well for about a year.

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  78. “emnity between Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Radek ”

    Didn’t know about that emnity, but I’ve never been very keen on Radek.
    I thought the main problem was the thing between her and Leo Jogiches. Didn’t she carry a pistol because he was obsessed with her and she broke it off or something?
    Yet Jogiches carried on the Spartacists after she was murdered and tried to avenge her.
    Just shows how futile and dangerous these personal eminites are in terms of the overall needs of the class struggle.

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  79. The hapless JohnG

    Unfortunately I’ve read far too many comments from your and your like littering half-decent blogs like this one.

    In place of serious discussion you seem to have the idea you have the Marx-given right to critciise every party. organisation and movement of the left that you find fault with. Your pomposity resides in the fact that you never, ever address any such critcisms to the spectacular failure of your own organisation to record anything resembling serious growth or success.

    Myopia? You and your ilk have the small-minded copyright on that particular failing.

    Mark P

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  80. …you seem to have the idea you have the Marx-given right to critciise every party. organisation and movement of the left that you find fault with. Your pomposity resides in the fact that you never, ever address any such criticisms to the spectacular failure of your own organisation to record anything resembling serious growth or success. Motes and beams, anyone?

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  81. He really is incredible isn’t he? Perhaps he’d like to reflect a little on the tradition he represents before coming over so ridiculously pompous. Sorry mate. Beria is dead. We don’t have to be scared anymore.

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  82. Prianikoff: Its really worth getting holdof Broue’s book, just recently translated into English from the French. An absolute classic of the kind of scholarship produced as people began to break free of the kind of traditions represented by, well, people like Mark P. All of these figures actually come out much more rounded then before.

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  83. CJH. Do try to keep up, I posted above >

    “Secondly, just by way of example heres my own criticism of Respect. It has a localised support it has failed to generalise. That localised support is significant and largely composed of a demographic unrepresented in traditional left organisations. In Salma Yaqoob it has the best single chance of an outside left victory at the next General Election. This would be a breakthrough of sorts, how significant remains to be seen, we are all capable of both making, and missing opportunities . As an organisation Respect remains fatally trapped in the moribund culture of the pre-existing left . This remains a substantial obstacle to any growth, any failure to address this will ensure its decline.”

    Now whether you agree or disagree with the points its open, honest and certainly self-critical. It was by way of an invitation to the hapless JohnG. If you are to be taken seriously as a critiic of others first have the guts ro be self-critiical of your own organisation’s failings.

    But JohnG and his camp followers are incapable of this. Time and again he ducks the question before embarassing himself with another dose of pumped up rhetoric aimed at all n sundry. Thats what is ‘incredible.’

    Mark P

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  84. Mark P, almost everything I’ve said here has been a criticism of the mistakes made by own tradition. Your inability to write anything but psychotic sectarian abuse is just tiresome.

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  85. Actually if you can find a single example of me attacking Respect, I’d be interested.

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  86. Well it’s good to know that I’m not the only one feeling grumpy and hungover.

    Broue’s book on the German revolution is indispensable. Here were some brief thoughts about it.

    http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/mass-revolutionary-parties-the-german-experience/

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  87. Wish I’d seen that at the time Liam (despite the fact that, as has been pointed out, you are yourself personally responsible for everything thats wrong with the British left). What did you make of Levi?

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  88. #77 by “we” I mean the readers of this site and our comrades.

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  89. JohnG

    Oh I’m sorry. Having endured your comments on here for the past couple of years I could have sworn you were having a go at the rightward shifting Galloway led breakwaway Respect while singing the praises of the faultless leadership of the SWP.

    I now stand corrected. Thanks for putting me right. Sounds like the analysis of the 1919 German Revolution you’ve handily recommended too will be providing the much-needed route-map for the renewal of the left in 2010 as well. It must be Christmas.

    Mark P

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  90. “Broue’s book..”

    I’ve been intending to read it for quite a while now.
    Up to now, my main source for Rosa Luxemburg has been her own writings and Paul Frolich’s biography, which I read as a teenager, in a Left Book Club edition that my dad owned. I still have it on the bookshelf.
    Broue’, before he died of course, ended up joining the IMT.

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  91. Well yes Mark P you ought to stand corrected. As anyone who had read anything I had actually said would know these were quite simply lies. On the question of Broue yes you should read it. One thing I’ve always found particularly contemptible is those with academic pretensions who publicly argue like populist philistines. But I guess thats your political tradition.

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  92. Mark P – I’d say you’d mistaken johng for me, but although I have been fairly constant in my criticism of Galloway’s rightward-shifting Respect split, I’ve had very little to say about the leadership of the SWP flawless or otherwise, often because discussions have been framed around stolen internal bulletins.

    You say:It has a localised support it has failed to generalise. That localised support is significant and largely composed of a demographic unrepresented in traditional left organisations. In Salma Yaqoob it has the best single chance of an outside left victory at the next General Election.
    Why has it failed to generalise? Why is its support confined to one demograpic? What underlies these questions is the one of what sort of class force Respect represents, the answering of which would render more concrete the analysis of such as the post writer, whose hopes for Respect to aid in future left co-operation seem to lie in a rose-tinted view of the subjective intentions of the leadership. While the SWP were involved in Respect it could be seen as an alliance of working-class politics with the anti-ipmerialism of a section of the Muslim community. But now that its left leg has gone, there seems to be nothing preventing it tipping into a community organisation, that seeks to represent nobody but its own. It was somewhat revealing at the last conference but one that the slogan “Defending Our People” was changed to “Defending Working People” in a seemingly cynical and certainly unacknowledged change designed to keep some left activists on board, the prognosis for its future seems to be in very much the opposite direction, as it eschews left co-operation for vote swapping with non-left forces.[From a Marxist point of view the dependence on allegedly charismatic leaders should come as no surprise, as a cross class alliance it tends to be represented by others rather than representing itself, in the same way Marx identified that Bonaparte represented the French peasantry].
    I think one mistake the SWP made was not to face up to the possibility of a split before it happened, and time spent now wondering if they had done things differently would the split not have occured may be time wasted.

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  93. If anybody has German they can have a read of unser weg:
    http://www.marxists.org/deutsch/archiv/levi/index.htm

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  94. The google translation of one of Levi’s letters to Lenin gives this:
    It is obvious that without us, the Independents gain the most profit from this development, especially as they are now once again extremely radical behave and try to make my password by radical speeches,
    Perhaps it is a time for more Marx and less Empedocles in analysing left forces:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empedocles

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  95. JohnG. Populist philistinism? Nice turn of phrase. But as per usual you studiously choose to avoid the point.

    Which was? That a test on the failed German Revolution of 1919 is like to be a key text in any project to renew the left close to a century later. Making such a point has nothing whatsoever to do with philistinism or populism.

    Good try though, and helpful in revealing just how backward-looking your politics are, trapped in a very particular version of revolutionism.

    Mark P

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  96. The trouble with populist philistinism is that it frequently comes unstuck. What is significant about the period being discussed is that it is the period which led directly to Gramsci’s writings which your own political trajectory has made so much of. Presumably you don’t suggest that people should not read Gramsci. Which brings out the dishonest patronising quality of your politics very nicely for anybody familiar with what is being discussed. There are a number of things of great relevence for the present of that period. Firstly this was a period of massive re-alignment on the left. Secondly this re-alignment was to be of great import for subsequent debates about the relevence of leftist politics in advanced capitalist societies. Thirdly of course this was the period when mistakes by the left saw the rise of fascism.

    Above all though, in a situation where the dominant forms of oppositional politics have been revealed to have feet of clay, its rich in lessons for anyone who is in the least politically serious. Your attitude really reflects your belief that intellectuals like yourself are the only qualified people and others should remain in ignorence of matters which you are surely very familiar with yourself.

    Its why, as I said, I have nothing but contempt for the kind of elitist attitude towards actually existing activists which your entire political orientation exudes.

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  97. JohnG. You really have overdosed on the pomposity this time round. I suggest you exit quietly before you embarass yourself any further.

    First. There is a world of difference between going back to classic historical texts, grasp some of the key concepts and mould them to contemporary situations and the model that you and your ilk adhere to. This is to denounce almost all of the former as revisionism because of its application. Instead you retreat into the apparent certainties of 1917 as your solitary model of revolutionary change. SWP books and journals are full of this dullard claptrap so Ilm sure you are familiar with the methodology.

    Second. I have never claimed to be an intellectual. I’ll glad accept the label, ta, but its you who’s awarding that, not me. Why you believe others should reside in ignorance of ideas is quite beyond me, though schooled in the SWP style of the didactic you are probably very used to ‘intellectuals’ being elevated in this manner. Thankfully I’ve never been party to such practice.

    Third. I’ll leave the ‘elitist atttitude to actually existing activists’ to those who still believe in the vanguard party. You lot wrote the book on it.

    Mark P

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  98. Except of course Mark P nothing which you say has the slightest relationship to reality. Anyone familiar with the debates being discussed would realise that its precisely dogmatism about 1917 that is being discussed. These were some of the central arguments between the different sections of the KPD at the time. And the significance of the book is it bought to light for the first time how contested those lessons were. What is populist about your approach is that you are starting with a stereotype of the left and using it to close off any possibility of rethinking traditions which remain very influential way beyond the confines of the supposedly “Leninist left”. This dogmatism being based on little more then your own dislike of the SWP.

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  99. Stereotype of the left? Well firstly statement after statement from JohnG rather handily conforms the main elements of any stereotype so thanks for that at least.

    Secondly, we’re not talking about the ‘left’ here, we’re talking about micro-section of the left which you and your ilk inhabit which numbers at most a couple of thousand. This is the key point which you relentlessly fail to address because of your pumped-up self importance. The idea that the arcane debates about 1917 you indulge in have any resonance beyond this micro-section is srtiously delusional and has nothing whatsoever to do with populism.

    As for ‘dislike of the SWP’. Did you actually bother reading my original contribution. I have a huge admiration for the SWP actually, the late 1970s ANL was almost all its own doing, RAR the most effective fusion of popular culture and militant politics in my lifetime. And with StWC it filled magnificently the role principally played by the CPGB in developing mass extra-parliamentary politics. No ‘dislike’ there. The point I made was these huge successes stand in stark contrast to the SWP’s near total failure to grow throughout the 1990s and 2000’s. This has nothing to do with ‘dislike’, its an observation which anybody but you and your like would admit to is of some significance. Rather than traipsing round the corpse of 1917 it might be more useful to address this failure of the outside left since 1917, something which of course is a collective failure , a collective defeat. and somehow I suspect messrs Lenin n Trotsky won;t be tremendously useful in helping us find the answers, but each to their own I s’pose.

    Mark P

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  100. Mark P I’m quite happy to have debates about such things and do so all the time. You however simply repeat demented lies about people (you’ve done it again). So whats the point?

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  101. No lies, just political differences. Get over it.

    Mark P

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  102. I think its you who needs to get over it Mark P. And learn to engage with those with whom you have political differences as opposed to just sloganising and shouting.

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  103. Johng / Mark,

    while I’m normally grateful for both your contributions I think this ding dong needs to stop now. Why not try to sort things out over a beer or pizza?

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  104. Liam

    Tend to agree. I’ll attempt to refrain from responding to the hapless JohnG but when he makes the accusation of ‘sloganising and shouting’, c’mon the SWP wrote the textbook on how to do that.

    Mark P

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  105. DING DONG !! end of round one !!

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  106. Light refreshment time everybody

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  107. […] at liammacuaid.wordpress.com. H/T Polizeros. The faction fight in the SWP, which pits the majority led by Alex Callinicos and […]

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  108. Its pre-conference warfare though. Trouble is there is no basis to the idea that there is a retreat to purity etc, etc. Its just not true.

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  109. Lets do a thought experiment. how should the swp react to viva palastina? my suspician would be that left platform would be arguing WE should be doing things like that. The rest of us would be saying WE should be saying more about Viva Palestina etc. Purely in a personal capacity but thats how I see the current debate in the SWP.

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  110. Is there not even a minority in the SWP who would actually consider working with or raising funds for or joining VP convoys?
    Are the only options to set up an alternative body or to ‘say more about’ about VP?

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  111. I would certainly support that and that was the point of my comment.

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  112. ‘where there is no vision / the people perish’

    the left platform seem more on the ball on the need for a proper national network to respond to the economic crisis than the swp leadership (if those who are showing no leadership can be called such) who have come up with the most half-baked of united fronts a ‘right to work campaign’ that they are trying to roll-round the country. nothing wrong per se with it, but such an initiative is narrow, lacking in sheer audacity and just doesn’t fit the situation we are in.

    (incidentally, while i know many people being made redundant and people who don’t wanna be unemployed, i have never heard a working class person raise the slogan ‘i demand the right to work’ (even if they want to work). i always preferred the class war dubbed version of the slogan ‘we want the riot to work!’)

    what is needed are action committees in every city and town as part of a national network, the crisis is not only economic but political, actions may be small, but if they can beging to provide a pole of attraction to those disaffected by the crisis that would be positive.

    the crisis is not only economic, but social and political. we need a lightening rod that can move from job cuts to rising prices to bank charges to politicians expenses to public ownership debates and so on.

    the rage is out there – about banks, about expenses and so on – what is lacking is the left (even in a small way) creating something that can express that.

    such a united front could be constructed from below and above. for example, the orginal anti-nazi league had a founding statement that was signed by worthies, academics, union bureuacrats, celebrities etc. to give it an umbrella of legitimacy, but the tempo was set by the struggle on the streets. movements such as ‘rock against racism’ gave alienated youth the space to rage against ‘labour party capitalist britain’

    likewise one could imagine a broad set of demands that a wide spectrum of the left could sign up to – giving a campaign some foundation – but having the radical left – socialists, class struggle anarchists, ex-labour voters, pissed off working class people – setting the tempo through agitation on the streets, in the workplaces, estates and in the job centres.

    remember that the new anti-capitalist party in france partly came out of the committees against the euro-referendum and so forth, one can see how having a small group of people who are solid starting to agitate under a common banner (so as to get ‘brand recognition from working class people) in different locales would be an effective way of starting to build @ new left.

    LET’S GET TO WORK COMRADES!

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  113. Adamski, I guess you’re in Workers’ Power. There’s an important difference in France: the committees in France were not just organised by the largest left group, but also the membership of these committees were also often people with longtime experience of the far left. That whole layer is larger than in Britain, and in a better position.

    The Right to Work campaign is like a front, but it’s interesting to see that the SWP is getting paper support from the NSSN and LRC, as well as some union branches. They claim to want to build local campaigning groups: why not take them at their word and give it a go?

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  114. Adamski summarises very well what is wrong with the left platform position. Ostensibly calling for more united front work but in practice a form of ultimatism which assumes that a ‘correct leadership’ will resolve all problems and that there is no need to work with people who have different politics. On the one paper united fronts which are really just fronts on the other side trying to find ways of working with actually existing political forces.

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  115. to duncan: no i am in no way a member of workers power, i realise my tone may have had some affinity with their classic all-we-have-to-do-is-plant-our-flag-in-the-centre-of-town-and-the-masses-will-flock to us. i am not hostile towards RTW campaign, if they were calling any actions or meetings that seemed interesting or worthwhile, i’d be happy to attend them, it is not a campaign that particularly inspires me to build as it seems like the socialist party’s ‘youth fight for jobs’ to be something of a front group and not particularly to “fit” the situation very well. i use front group in terms of a campaign set up to build one organisation rather than relate to the class.

    my political background is one time anarchist, member of the swp for five years, now i would generally label myself a libertarian marxist or troublemaker or perhaps just ‘a friend of the poor’

    johng appears to be being intellectually dishonest, where have i actually put any ultimatums or suggested that we don’t work with people who have different politics or that the correct leadership will rectify all the problems?

    the point is not only to work with actually existing political forces, but to create new ones, or more accurately fertilise an existing constituency and to give it some coherrence. from the masses – to the masses, comrade!

    to give an example, there was clearly massive public unquiet over expenses, but there was virtually no left wing response to fertilise and build upon that sentiment. last year, a few thousand people (many of them young) attended a demonstration during the g20 against the banks which some from the trotskyist left attended but were largely marginal to the mobilising and organising. it showed the potential that is out there.

    but turning to johng’s key accusation of ‘ultimatums’ and ‘not working with people with different politics to me’ this is clear nonsense.

    for example, not awhile ago, i was involved in some agitation around a now discarded charter that was supported by some respected local trade unionists including the secretary of our local trades council (non-affiliated socialist), but also signed by three plaid cymru assembly members including one who calls for a ‘workers bail-out the same as the banks got’, the deputy leader of the party, the most respected old labour figure in the locale, a green parliamentary candidate, some academics, the secretary of cnd in wales and had interest from some people involved in ngo’s/local anti-poverty churchy types etc. this was the umbrella of legitimacy, trying to push the idea that ‘we won’t pay for their crisis’ in the mainstream domain, but at the same time trying to construct something that would be led by grassroots activists and be prepared to take direct action and build up a movement on the streets and try and create a space to have-out the ideological and political arguments, above-all to try and create a visible pole of attraction for people being impacted by the credit crunch that you could do something, that there could be resistance.

    it was always about action, rather than -as appears to have happened with ‘the people’s charter – getting the great and the good to sign a petition and resolutionary socialism. so we called a demo outside the offices of british gas, we called an anti-capitalist march against the banks, as job cuts first hit – brutally – some people got in cars and drove around the valleys of workplaces & factories where jobs were being axed trying to get contacts, there was an attempted intervention against the closure of hoover factory in merthyr, the major employer in the town (socialists got hundreds of signatures and enthusiasm when they did petitions in the town and a facebook group against the closure gained five thousand members within 3 days of being set-up, unfortunately the union refused to take meaningful action)

    now the achievements of this local campaigning were extremely modest and small (and perhaps the hasty & clumsy way that the charter was an obstacle to getting even broader support) , what i’m trying to put across is some idea of an alternative methodology to responding to the crisis one not based on a narrow, economistic ‘right to work’ campaign or uniting-the-sects in a talking shop, but one based on trying to create some form of lose network that can gain brand recognition and become a rallying point for those who want to fightback and start to pull together many of the disparate threads of resistance.

    my point is not that if we get the formula right there will suddenly be mass-resistance, but that we can start to build a stronger left by creating action committees that are part of a loose nationally co-ordinated resistance in a far more politically ambitious way than the ‘right to work’ campaign that can respond to the current organic crisis of capitalism.

    of course, nobody believes that simply setting up a campaign will magically create an anti-capitalist movement or generate new resistances, it is a question of creating a framework that can start to bring together all the different threads and green shoots of resistance into a movement.

    imagine if from the breakout of the crisis, there had been some broad anti-capitalist campaign CONSISTENTLY agitating up and down britain . . .

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  116. I’m sorry but I do think your position (and that of left platform) is mistaken. Yes we need ‘new forces’. But the belief that the SWP can build a ‘broad campaign’ simply on the basis of its own initiatives with no serious attempt to engage with other organised forces on the left is just misguided. It leads precisely just to the politics of ‘fronts’ as opposed to real united front work. Its really odd the way you dismiss the right to work initiative, which is a modest attempt to create something real. On what basis? Nowhere do you say.

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  117. The right to work initiative is an example of a front rather than a broad front. Take the proposed conference in Manchester on the 30th, its a classic lecture people to death and achieve nothing format.
    The top table is stuffed full of worthies and trade union bureaucrats, with the objective of boring the audience to death and organising nothing. From what I can see there aren’t even any unemployed people on the top table.
    It was established without any consultation with the Unemployed Workers Union, which already has 30 branches across the country. You can read their criticisms here;

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2927

    I basically agree with Adamski, whats lacking in the current period is the left being prepared to change anything about their disastrous practice of the past period.
    That won’t be effected one way or another by the SWPs current internal strife.

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  118. Yes but Bill, as they say, you would say that wouldn’t you? I note that the group welcomes the initiative. I don’t really know what to say about your claim that the aim of the conference is to bore people to death. I can recall discussions about the initiative but I don’t remember that being on the agenda.

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  119. Yes, whilst no one can be opposed in principle to any initiative to oppose unemployment on a class basis, the RTW CAMPAIGN may be another substitute for a conscious attempt to construct a genuine united front, on a democratic basis.

    This is a similar formula to my concern re the forthcoming UAF conference. The SWP must recognise that if they want the Left to support then they must make a serious attempt to involve others on the Left and in other relevent campaigns to be involved at the begining, following discussions.

    Just to have a top table of keynote speakers, no delegate based structure, no opportunities for resolutions, no workshops for activists to share experiences and no opportunity for real debate is concerning to say the least.

    If one suggests alternatives then you are seen as being critical and sectarian. Perhaps a more inclusive structure for rank and file activists and less on “heros” of the movement is what is needed, if we are to start to unfy the forces for the transformation of society. Or is a pluralistic and inclusive approach a naughty set of words. Enough of substituting and more of openly building in a unifying manner.

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  120. Except of course that, at least as I understand it, the kind of position put foward by adamski, is the MOST hostile to delegate structures etc (as I understand his argument and the argument of left platform). It is directed against arguments which suggest that the SWP needs to launch initiatives where it realistically can and do everything possible to work with others to launch the larger initiatives which can’t be launched merely under the rubric of the SWP. Hence endless complaints about the lack of decisiveness etc, which translates in practice (in my view) to what I called ultimatism.

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  121. Its not really possible to complain about the SWP. They do whatever they want irrespective of what anyone else thinks. Its what landed them in this mess in the first place.
    But lets consider the RTW campaign. Its founding conference will not agree anything. There is no room for debate, let alone resolutions. No democratic structures will arise from it. It will be and is, totally controlled by the SWP.
    Which means no self respecting activist is going to touch it with a barge pole.
    It provides free publicity for various TU bureaucrats to talk left without doing anything. And at least unlike the UAF it won’t serve as an actual block to struggle.
    Not so hot really is it?

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  122. From the outside the Right To Work event seems to be based on the same template as the the utterly dire Organising For Fighting Unions conference which matched Bill’s description but was even more tedious.It was the perfect model of a stage managed front operation and not a serious attempt to build a broad class struggle network in the unions.

    The signs for Right To Work are not any better. It is staffed by party fulltimers; will be dominated by a single current and will be folded in a few months. These predictions I’ll add that I confidently expect that at my next union meeting a resolution will be put by the same people who always put these resolutions for fronts explaining how important it is.

    There is a world of difference between a real campaign and what’s on offer. If the ongoing internal discussions in the SWP help clarify that then they will have been worth it.

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  123. Funnily enough I was told that Bamberry was ringing round trying to rustle up support. How unlikely is that!

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  124. i am not actually a member of the left platform (well obviously not being in the swp!) but also not discussed these issues with their people (i don’t think they have any members in my locale!), my reflections were based on reading some of the articles from a bulletin that has been posted online and i felt some affinity particularly with the proposals put forward by people such as neil f.

    also i am not against ‘the right to work’ initiative (i did consider attending the london conference), i just don’t think that it will result in much as it doesn’t ‘fit very well what we should or could be building. a co-ordinated action campaign around the credit crunch would be far more effective, in my opinion, as a left unity initiative than conventions of the left or electoral talks.

    the commemoration of the twentieth anniversary of the poll tax rebellion in a year of recession and potential tory rule should provide a good opportunity for socialists to reflect on resistance

    one of the key mistakes that some marxists make is thinking that just because the potential power of working class is greatest at the point of production, struggle in other areas of society is irrelevant or doesn’t exist or cannot take place outside of traditional arenas.

    this crass economism can be evidenced in the swp leadershop getting it wrong on the very question of the poll tax and initially rubbishing the non-payment campaign (that we all now know played a key role in sinking the tax – and the government) arguing that trade union organisation must be decisive in defeating the tax)

    for example a 1988 swp pamphlet dismisses building a non-payment community movement thus:

    ‘Community organi­sation stands in stark contrast to the power of wor­kers organised in the workplace. Community politics diverts people away from the means to win, from the need to mobilise working class activity on a collective basis. And by putting the emphasis on the individual’s will to resist, any difficulties and defeats will be the respon­sibility of the individual alone’.

    ‘If the real responsibility for the cam­paign is pinned squarely where it belongs, it will enable people to see where the real fault for any defeat lies. Pointing away from the organised working class lets Labour and trade union leaders off the hook. For it is they who have the power to launch activity and who are running away from their responsibility’.

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  125. to consider another missed opportunity by the left . . .
    (in the current context of a bitterly cold winter)

    in the run up to a labour party conference (as the economic crisis was first breaking) pressure was mounting over fuel poverty. a large number of labour MPs were calling for a windfall tax, a coalition of charities and ngo’s including barnardo’s and friends of the earth had issued a ‘fuel poverty charter’. a perfect opportunity for socialists to intervene to simultaneously agitate for immediate action and raise the argument over re-nationalisation. we might have had a national day of action on fuel poverty, socialists could have carried out joint action with left-of-centre politicians, charities, and poverty and pensioner groups etc.

    instead the opportunity was missed and the momentum slid. would a ‘right to work campaign’ be taking up this kinda issue? i don’t think it really falls into the remit.

    take another scandal of socialists abandoning the poor. at the end of 2009, the welfare reform bill became law with barely any organised opposition from the left this is a bill that attacks single mothers, benefit claimants, the poor, and working class people in the most brutal way imaginable. ‘workfare’ that even the tories rejected is being rolled in, at a time of massive unemployment, we will see the most draconian regime introduced imaginable.

    once again one could imagine a broad united front being built stretching from members of churchy anti-poverty campaigners, charities/ngos, community groups, socialists, anarchists where tactics would range from lobbying, street demonstrations, political meetings, direct action casework (see london coalition against poverty) etc.

    as one can see, in every instance, i am actually proposing broader united fronts than johng.

    by setting up broad based networks against te economic crisis (that can tackle a broad spectrum of the political, ideological and economic questions raised by the crisis) as part of a loose national framework we can start to not only rebuild the left, but begin to create a space for real resistance.

    in the eighteenth century the system of vested interest and power was called ‘old corruption’. let us now (nod to my patron saint ep thompson) now take on ‘new corruption’ via the ‘remaking of the english working class’!

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  126. I have to admit to having been unimpressed by my old comrade Neil Faulkner’s piece (I thought Chris Harman’s take down of it in International Socialism settled it really: http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=562&issue=123 I particularly liked the bit about Neil apparently thinking we were already in the belly). On reflection its probably why we clashed on fb about the unemployed workers movement.

    I’m also quite worried by some comrades, both in and outside the SWP, who seem to me to be using the term ‘syndicalism’, simply to refer to emphasising the importance of socialists having a strategy inside trade unions (togeather with, occassionally, a tendency simply to write them off). terms like ‘economism’ etc are being thrown around in a way which I think is very misleading (on this front I was re-reading Duncan Hallas recently and this little piece seemed salutory: http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/works/1973/03/economism.htm – an oldie but a goldie). Its one thing to say that we shouldn’t have an exclusive focus on the workplace. Its quite something else to say that we shouldn’t HAVE a focus on the workplace.

    On the question of broad based campaigns etc. Well I’m all in favour, but I really don’t understand the constant complaints about ‘talking shops’ in the name of….well probably even smaller talking shops. Whats clear to me about the current situation is that the scale of the tasks that confront us just are going to require broader forces then any single organisation can muster at the moment. At that level then, we do need to talk. On the electoral front I have to admit I’m getting keener and keener on this initiative ‘vote left’ that some of the comrades here are pushing.

    Seems sensible to me.

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  127. Personally I thought Harman’s reply was disingenuous. I went to the ISJ day school on the crisis immediately after the collapse of Lehman’s in Nov 2008. At it Harman predicted either the Great Depression or 10 years of Japanese style stagnation – albeit world wide. So in other words, the Great Depression. If you check out Harman’s article of winter 2008 ISJ he replays both these themes, but bottles out on the forecast. The closest he came to writing it down was here;

    “Supporters of the system always try to console themselves with the thought that every previous crisis of the system has eventually come to an end. But it can take an awfully long time. It took a decade of economic devastation and the worst war humanity had known for the system to resume its old growth in the 1930s.” Chris Harman Socialist Review – May 2009

    The irony is of course, that even then the perspectives of the majority are widely exaggerated, stating that the crisis is akin to the Great Depression. All in all a bit of a joke actually.
    Ironically the Left Faction are more catastrophist even than that, but with a more right wing general politics, the united front as strategy etc.
    Talking shops are ok up to a point, they can serve as a means for exchanging ideas. But being talked- at- by- a -load- of -big -shots- shops are not even useful up to a point.
    Can’t wait til the 30th.

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  128. “‘voluntarist’, ‘soft on the fascists’, ‘movementist’, ‘anti-party element’ and ‘renegade’ ”

    Jesus wept. The only thing missing is Hitlero-Trotskyite.

    http://solomonsmindfield.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-expulsion-from-swp-has-been-ratified.html

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  129. Its the democratic heart of the SWP. I take it from the silence that the “Left Faction” have stayed inside, swallowed their differences and remained “loyal”.
    Which means that their supporters like Clare and Alex have been left high and dry.

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  130. I do hope that Left Platform supporters stay in / are able to stay in the SWP and are not frozen out or picked off at a later date.
    Some expelled comrades are left high and dry, as Bill says. As we have seen recently the bar for what constitutes ‘factionalism’ has been set very low and it must be a concern that any comrades discussing Clare and Alex’s cases, let alone rallying to their defence, would fall foul of this themselves. Catch 22.

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  131. During a years discussion a lot can be said. And of course its a years discussion which referred back to some of the mistakes of the old leadership imposed on the comrades (Left List etc). You can then string togeather a long list and make it seem very odd. But voluntarism is a fairly good description of the left platforms position. I never heard this ‘soft on fascism’ business or most of the other epithets. But then it just does seem to me that any criticism of the left platform is defined by its very nature as ‘anti-political’ for some. There does come a point after about three years when a failed set of perspectives have to be given up.

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  132. Do we know yet whether the smoke from the papal convention is white or black? Do we have a new pope? Unlike the Catholic Church they dont need to die for this to happen, just breach the papal rules!

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  133. Well given that the leadership of Left Platform came off the CC last year, not because of a breach of the rules but because of a political disagreement, its unclear what you are talking about alf. My understanding is that the old leadership’s perspectives were indeed defeated at this years conference.

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  134. An interesting way of putting it. If the old leadership was defeated, how many of the old CC survived to be on the current ‘new’ CC?

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  135. is this a maths gcse question?

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  136. or are we meant to all say si si

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  137. Hi alf – so the SWP is more democratic than the Catholic Church? That’s something at least.

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  138. as an atheist i would not have a clue. i dont go for this when in rome stuff

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  139. liam – perhaps you ought to get, you know, both sides of the story rather than simply that of Alex, who wasn’t even there. There are, in fact, two people who voted for Clare’s reinstatement who specifically counter Alex’s reportage and claims of slander. Repeating rumour is not very productive.

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  140. From Clare’s blog by comradematt – “Was sad when conference made this decision and I voted to reinstate… However the manner in which the debate was conducted was very well done, with all comrades even those who opposed the reinstatement speaking very highly of [Clare]… I didn’t hear any of the insults listed, above used and anyone who called you a scab would deserve a smack in the chops.”

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  141. Clare got lucky. Now she will be able to dedicate herself to politics and look for a marxist grouping that is non-sectarian and politically intelligent.

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  142. like the David Ellis Revolutionary Tendency – Bolshevik Action Group

    Lucky her.

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  143. I nearly crapped myself laughing then redbedhead. She could do worse though than join my dertbag outfit though. She wouldn’t be arbitrarily expelled and abandoned and she’d get a decent political education.

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  144. The Catholic Church is much more democratic than the SWP. Its socialism is better than the SWPs as well.

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  145. Yes the debate was very well done. Why wouldn’t it be? Clare was not allowed to attend, and the result was known in advance. What’s not to like?

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  146. um, she attended her appeals hearing where she had a full say. Conference votes on the report of the appeals committee and heard the concerns of the membership. And since there was a significant vote that didn’t support the committee report – though it didn’t go the way that you want – your claims look ridiculous.

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  147. “However the manner in which the debate was conducted was very well done, with all comrades even those who opposed the reinstatement speaking very highly of [Clare]…”

    This is plain daft – you expel a Comrade who is spoken highly of?

    Please explain the ‘logic’ of that.

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  148. lobby – because it’s not personal, that’s how. Because outside of the world of hollywood movies, most human beings aren’t divided into manichean camps of good and evil. It is rather more complex than that.

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  149. So let me get this right. She was not allowed to appeal to the conference, a report was given by the Appeals Commission and then expelled! But she was a good comrade!
    So is the wider movement to be enlightened regarding her ” political errors” so we may learn from this? What exactly was her errors? What is the political justification of this?
    What would a bourgeois lawyer say about this if she was being sacked? Unfair dismissal? What about the Right To Work campaign? Would there be unofficial action in support of her against victimisation?
    Perhaps if tendancies, factions and open debate was allowed then this mess would not have arisen in the first place. Did the comrade cross class lines and carry out counter revolutionary action?
    It was suggested that the cde concerned was guilty of Guavarism. Well at least he led a revolution.
    A bit of a mess they have got themselves into.

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  150. “So let me get this right. She was not allowed to appeal to the conference, a report was given by the Disputes Cttee and then expelled! But she was a good comrade!”

    The process is clear. She appealed to the DC and that appeal was rejected. Then the DC has to have its report approved by the membership at the conference. That isn’t a second, further appeal. It is the democratic accountability mechanism that is applied to the AC itself. It’s pretty straightforward.

    “So is the wider movement to be enlightened regarding her ” political errors” so we may learn from this? ”

    This is silly. It was between her and the party. There is a process in the constitution and it was followed. There was a debate about it at the conference and the majority voted to accept the decision. It wasn’t about being fired from a job, for god’s sake.

    And if you want to be part of an organization with permanent factions, then join one. The SWP doesn’t permit them, it has a reason for not doing so, it’s clearly in its constitution that you can’t do so. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to join or remain a member but you can’t pretend that it is hidden; or that there aren’t clear and constitutional mechanisms for disputes, including accusations of factionalizing outside of the permitted 3 month period; or that there isn’t a political argument for why permanent factions aren’t permitted.

    “It was suggested that the cde concerned was guilty of Guavarism.”

    No. It was rumoured that someone – unnamed and unquoted – made this accusation. Since you’re all hot on jurisprudence, perhaps you could live up to the most basic acceptable juridical practices yourself.

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  151. To be fair to the SWP, she wasn’t allowed to make her appeal in person either. That’s the “democratic accountability mechanism” in operation.

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  152. external bulletin Avatar
    external bulletin

    “She appealed to the DC and that appeal was rejected.”

    Even the crappest companies allow you to appeal to a different set of people to the ones who decided your original case.

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  153. Me:

    “This is plain daft – you expel a Comrade who is spoken highly of?

    Please explain the ‘logic’ of that.”

    Redbedhead:

    “lobby – because it’s not personal, that’s how. Because outside of the world of hollywood movies, most human beings aren’t divided into manichean camps of good and evil. It is rather more complex than that.”

    Thanks for that Redbedhead, but I’m well aware that the world is not made up solely of saints and sinners. But don’t you think that a highly spoken of Comrade is tending towards the ‘saintly’ side, and is somebody who you would want to recruit?

    Be honest, this is all to do with ‘party discipline’, that is, top-down control, isn’t it? The leadership of the SWP seems to be scared of its own members.

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  154. billj – (INCORRECTLY USED COLLOQUIALISM DELETED and I really hope no one is using this site for that sort of thing). the mechanism at conference is to have the membership hold the DC accountable.

    external – see above. And, the DC is the body you go to after a disciplinary decision by the CC. And, furthermore, the party is not a workplace so using workplace mechanisms where there are questions of class power, resistance, unions, etc is absurd.

    lobby – there is a clear democratic process and a clear constitution. You can be a good person and good activist and still run afoul of that for any number of reasons. But there isn’t one process for “good” people and one process for “bad” people. Everybody is judged by the same criteria of accountability.
    As for your fantasy about being scared of the members, it is just that – a fantasy.

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  155. Reading the stuff – can someone explain why the ‘Mutiny’ thing was problematic. Was it the comrade had some initiative?

    Also what is now going to happen with the Left Platform? Is it keep quiet now or else (as their limited time to be a faction is now over)?

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  156. Isn’t it reassuring that you can be a “good person and a good activist” and still run afoul of the SWPs democratic process for any number of reasons?
    Can you imagine being judged by RBH, never mind being scared of the members!?

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  157. Interestingly, someone who posted on Clare’s blog following the confirmation of her expulsion over the weekend talks about how he’d been expelled from the party himself in the past, but adds “…after I was pushed out I never criticised the party” – and this was (implicitly) the key to his eventual re-admission. I suspect that it will be a matter of donning a hairshirt and taking a vow of silence for Clare if she wants to rejoin the party in the future. As for the Left Platform, it will surely be a time for quiet reflection; very, very quiet… And even that may not be enough to save them.

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  158. The process may be clear but that does not make it right. If we are to construct a movement that can unite others and take anti-capitalist politics forward then we must ensure a more transparent and open organisation.
    We are not in the days of underground activity under the Tsar. There is no defence for denying of the right to have tendancies and factions as part of an open debate.
    The lessons of the SWP reflects errors that can not be repeated if we are to transform the movement and attract militants to it. That is why this is an issue for external interest.

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  159. billj – don’t worry bill, you’ll never have to afraid of any membership.

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  160. “more transparent and open organisation” – you mean like one with a clearly laid out constitution, rules and procedures. Like the SWP.

    “There is no defence for denying of the right to have tendancies and factions as part of an open debate.”

    Yes, there is. you just don’t agree with it.

    “The lessons of the SWP reflects errors that cannot be repeated if we are to transform the movement and attract militants to it.”

    Then where is the larger organization on the far left that proves you are right and the SWP are wrong? You know, if you don’t agree with the SWP you are free to not join and you are even more free to do like bill and build a bigger organization to prove how correct you are and how incorrect the SWP are.

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  161. Exactly alf, but of course under the Tsar factions and tendencies were allowed. Indeed the Bolsheviks were a faction for most of their existence. Factions were only banned after the accession of Stalin to power in 1921.
    Of course the net isn’t really representative of the SWPs more thinking membership, for a start, if they say anything in public they’re likely to get jumped on, so all you get online, see above a couple of posts, are the uncritical parrots of the official line. They are not representative of the entire SWP, far from it, but they are representative of the people who staff the apparatus, who make it into the leadership. The ones who have forgotten how to think for themselves. Exactly not the people who are going to overthrow capitalism.

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  162. External Bulletin “Even the crappest companies allow you to appeal to a different set of people to the ones who decided your original case”

    That’s because to do anything else would be illegal.

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  163. “the uncritical parrots of the official line. They are not representative of the entire SWP, far from it, but they are representative of the people who staff the apparatus, who make it into the leadership. The ones who have forgotten how to think for themselves. Exactly not the people who are going to overthrow capitalism.”

    I’m not in the SWP, let alone part of the apparatus. But you’re a laugh with your “In 1921 when blah blah blah” as though you can read organizational forms off of a party in Tsarist Russia almost a hundred years ago. Your delusions of Bolshevik grandeur have led you to think that anyone who disagrees with you must not be able to think. That’s not a sign of a healthy mental outlook, let alone political perspective. Guess that explains why Workers Power Hammer or whatever they’re called couldn’t contain your brilliance and only the five people people of Permanent Revolution can stand the power of your brilliance.

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  164. “I’m not in the SWP, let alone part of the apparatus. ”

    You want to get applying. A skills set like yours. Invaluable.

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  165. redbedhead; it’s worth re-reading your own words and putting them into the context of the real goal of a revolutionary party, and of the socialist tradition. You wrote: “there is a clear democratic process and a clear constitution. You can be a good person and good activist and still run afoul of that for any number of reasons.” But isn’t the aim of the revolutionary party to regroup the whole vanguard? Leadership isn’t primarily an elected committee, it’s a social relationship characterised by active and voluntary consent. So, in the July Days, Lenin worked to convince the Petrograd organisation, and not to discipline it. When Zinoviev and Kamenev came out against the October revolution, they were not expelled. And those Bolsheviks were acting consciously and in public against the party.

    It’s crazy to pick a single example, but as it happens we may have one: Clare certainly was not: she honestly considers events like Mutiny to be compatible with the SWP politics. She clearly wants to be inside the party and to act within its policies. A revolutionary party actually needed to deal with a very wide range of people, because there are people who will come into the party who are deeply inflected by other ideological traditions and will not fully assimilate the world view of the leadership. As long as they, on balance, add more than they take away then the party has to find ways to integrate people like Clare.

    There’s a particularly important reason for that: the party gets things wrong. Comrades with other views, seemingly antithetical views, are bringing ideas that contain within them correct and valuable insights that have to synthesised and added to the party’s worldview.

    Because the SWP doesn’t do that, it will continue to spin out from it good activists – many of whom will be out of activity for long people after being bruised and confused by the party.

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  166. In the last line, I mean “for long periods”.

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  167. Duncan – I appreciate the tone of your argument, which raises some interesting points. Let me answer in a similar vein. First, I’m not interested in having a discussion that compares the present context with Russia in 1917, or 1903, or 1908, etc. because it is utterly unhelpful. Taken as a whole, the Bolshevik experience – and Lenin’s practice – was one that was rooted in a given context, where organizational questions were secondary to overall analysis. So, to say “well, Lenin in 1917 said x, y and z” is useless in a situation where there is no mass organization of professional revolutionaries, steeled in a situation of extreme repression, in the process of rapidly become a mass party of the working class with 1 in 10 workers joining and a majority supporting the policies of the party. This is obviously a different moment.

    Secondly, of course the party gets things wrong. That’s why there’s a three month pre-conference discussion period with three completely open and unedited bulletins and the right to form factions. Maybe you think that the party should have factions all year round – that’s your perspective. It’s not one that I share, certainly not with a tiny party of a few thousand. A true mass party, particularly in a period of big struggles – that’s a different situation. I don’t happen to support one particular approach to organizational questions over others at all moments and I’m open to debate. But I think that the bigger problem on the left of the left is not too little discussion – it’s endless talk and ideological nit-picking amongst an exceedingly small number of the same people.

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  168. The reason why history is important is that the IS tradition amongst others, claims that it is based on the organisational practice of the Bolsheviks. This is the reason why it calls its organisational code “democratic centralism”.
    That is why it is worth comparing the practice of that organisation against that code, to see if it accurately represents it, and indeed whether that tradition is one that socialists today should seek to mirror.
    Funnily enough the Bolsheviks did not go around expelling good activists and good people for falling afoul of numerous petty “rules”.
    I’ll give you an example. During WWI Bukharin wanted to set up a paper to fight for Luxemburgist position on the national question. He contacted the Bolshevik CC to check if it was OK. They refused him permission. He did it anyway. There were no organisational measures taken against him.
    The kind of obedience to the rules demanded by RBD is obviously the antithesis of this – as is frankly his bile laced tone and general rudeness – it is striking that while he makes much of the differences between Tsarist Russia and today, the regime in the SWP is more reminiscent is far less liberal, far more autocratic, far more hierarchical and undemocratic than anything experienced by the Bolsheviks.

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  169. Redbeadhead: `And if you want to be part of an organization with permanent factions, then join one. The SWP doesn’t permit them, it has a reason for not doing so, it’s clearly in its constitution that you can’t do so. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to join or remain a member but you can’t pretend that it is hidden; or that there aren’t clear and constitutional mechanisms for disputes, including accusations of factionalizing outside of the permitted 3 month period; or that there isn’t a political argument for why permanent factions aren’t permitted.’

    Marxists are not in favour of factions but neither are they in favour of arbitrary and bureaucratic resolution to political differences or even the invention of political differences for factional reasons. The fact that you think such disputes can be given the arbitrary figure of 3 months to be resolved marks you and the SWP out as a bureaucratized sect. Trotsky and Lenin before him always insisted that every dispute be fought out politically until the question had been either completely resolved or the dissenters left of their own accord usually because they had made a definitive break with the scientific socialist method of Marx. That is how Marxism is developed and its opponents discredited. The opposite method of bureaucratic arbitrariness discredits Marxism.

    But of course it is not just members like Clare and Alex who experience the SWP leadership as arbitrary. That is how it comes across to the entire movement. I’m sure there are still many Respect members still scratching their heads over operation wreckspect and wondering what the hell happened there.

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  170. Mark Victorystooge Avatar
    Mark Victorystooge

    Stalin didn’t accede to power in 1921. Lenin was still alive and in reasonable health and Trotsky was a prominent figure.
    The Civil War encouraged military-style discipline, especially in the Red Army, and Communist Party members ordered executions and were sometimes themselves executed, for drunkenness, dereliction of duty and so forth. Comments on the libertarianism of the Bolsheviks usually ignore the fact that coming to power and hanging on to it in ongoing emergency conditions resulted in a distinct turn towards authoritarian, even draconian methods. The pre-1917 Bolsheviks may have been a civilised debating club, but the Civil War changed that.

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  171. Of course I meant Bensaid—I was in the middle of an exchange bemoaning the fact that it hadn’t been Bendit when I was posting! Apologies.

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  172. Stalin had acceded to power by 1921. That’s my point he did so while Lenin was alive. Lenin and Trotsky were both participants in the bureaucratisation of the revolution, the creation of the apparatus which Stalin controlled. That is why in 1922 Lenin’s Testament outlined a series of measures to combat bureaucratisation and offered Trotsky an alliance to fight it. But too late. Lenin’s health was failing. Trotsky who Lenin had been busy driving out of power for the previous two years, since their disagreements over the two years, hesitated. Lenin’s proposals aside from the removal of Stalin himself, an expansion of the CC and the Workers Inspection were largely implemented nonetheless. But as Stalin now controlled the apparatus they accelerated rather than slowed the bureaucratisation of the revolution.

    “The pre-1917 Bolsheviks may have been a civilised debating club, but the Civil War changed that.”

    Yes and the Left Opposition wanted the restoration of the democratic rights that had applied before the revolution and which were manifest in the debate over Brest Litovsk. Indeed this was an insult thrown at them by Stalin.

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  173. Luna 17 reports on a a series of resignations in the north east citing
    “serious differences of perspective and orientation that have opened up between the leadership and ourselves. We believe that the sustained campaign against Tony and other members of the Left Platform taken by some supporters of the central committee, including disciplinary measures, show a serious corrosion of democratic rights inside the SWP.”

    http://luna17activist.blogspot.com/2010/02/resignations-from-socialist-workers.html

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  174. Well all I can see is that a comrade was instructed to resign from an official position and chose to resign instead. And that members of his branch who had waged a campaign against the local district organiser (who incidently is himself a victimised trade union militant of some standing but just happened not to agree with their perspective) decided to resign as well, largely on the basis that they disagree with the perspectives adopted by the overwhelming majority of delegates. I’m sorry they made this decision but that is obviously their right.

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  175. How can it be right to instruct someone to resign from a position in the shop stewards network? Isn’t that positive work for socialists? Why is it better to lose ten members then to have this comrade on active in the NSSN, which the SWP supports?

    My suggestion: have the members elect their own leadership.

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  176. Well it can be right if there are serious disagreements about what work in that network ought to entail. I don’t know the detail of this business but its pretty clear that you are talking about a group of comrades who for a very long time felt very uncomfortable with the views of the majority of SWP members. They have chosen to resign. That is a perfectly honourable thing to do if you no longer feel you share the politics of the organisation you are a member of. Its hardly cause for scandal though.

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  177. And our members do have control over our leadership. Which is why there’s been a bit of unhappiness amongst those who did not want to accept this.

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  178. They have control over their leadership, which they demonstrated by resigning? And they do have the politics of the organisation they’re just not prepared to except the petty dictats from the centre and the centres local official. What revolutionary would?
    I think you need to refer to the pre conference bulletins where it was explained, by Callinicos I think, that the selection of officials from the centre was necessary to force through a line against local opposition. This was of course, Stalin’s (and lets be honest Lenin’s by 1920 at least) reason too. It is very undemocratic and breeds bureaucratism.

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  179. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    bill j: Leninism breeds bureaucratism? Your analysis is wholly idealist. Without the material conditions for it then bureacratism cannot arise let alone impose its rule.

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  180. who is a district organiser accountable to? is a district organiser elected by the grassroots rank and file membership (as was the case in the KPD and Bolsheviks and all democratic revolutionary organisations). the answer is no. can ordinary members subject the party functionary to recall? the answer is no.

    this creates a rotten culture where the party functionaries see themselves as essentially above the rank and file, unaccountable, stooges and yes-men/women to the central committee, and a transmission belt where ‘the line’ comes down from the leadership via the local hacks to the members.

    a revolutionary party is based on the idea that the working class has the capability to run society, yet this swp claims that the most conscious elements of the class who have formed themselves into a party are not capable of appointing their own leaders but have to have them imposed from above.

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  181. Yes Adamski the SWP are the epitome of bureaucratic centralism.

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  182. You seem to miss the point. Many were outraged by the way the membership forced the leadership of the SWP to change its line (and in the end the composition of the CC) last year. They thought it an abuse of democratic centralism. Their response was to attempt to campaign against these things, utilizing the more open atmosphere in the organisation to do so, whilst pouring scorn on the whole idea of ‘accountability’ etc. I have no doubt that some drawn to this position had many different motivations. But for most of us this was a faction opposed root and branch to democracy inside the SWP or any form of accountability for its leadership. Hence the lack of political sympathy. There were real things at stake here. I’m sorry that the comrades made the decision to resign. But thats their right.

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  183. ” Leninism breeds bureaucratism? Your analysis is wholly idealist. Without the material conditions for it then bureacratism cannot arise let alone impose its rule.”

    The material conditions for bureaucratic rule undoubtedly existed post the Russian revolution.
    And the material conditions exist in these small leftist organisations. There is after all a bureaucracy in each of them which controls them in its own interest. These people are alive, the do exist, therefore the material conditions for their existence also exist.
    Adamski is spot on this culture which encourages top down hierarchical rule is not “democratic centralist”. I agree with the Democratic Centralists who criticised the bureaucratisation of the Bolshevik Party from the very beginning;

    “Comrade Lenin has revealed here today a very original understanding of democratic centralism. . . . Comrade Lenin says that all democratic centralism consists of is that the congress elects the Central Committee, and the Central Committee governs. . . . With such an original definition we cannot agree”

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2954

    You might want to say that there is a river of blood separating Leninism from Stalinism. I would agree. But to pretend that Lenin had nothing to do with creating the apparatus is to be blind to the facts, Trotsky pointed out that this is exactly what he did, see his Dialectical Notebooks.

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  184. @ JohnG

    Wasn’t it a commonplace that the old Rees/German leadership were at least as much responsible for the bureaucratic centralist hierarchical top down nature of the organisation as their replacements?
    There was no serious differences over these matters. My point is that there couldn’t be. Both sides represented the bureaucracy, both have a vested interest in the maintenance of their own jobs. So that’s what they did.
    That the Smith leadership is tidying up some unfinished business in the North East rather demonstrates the point.

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  185. Harry says that “Without the material conditions for it then bureacratism cannot arise let alone impose its rule.” It’s blindingly obvious that the membership of numerous socialist organisations have been politically expropriated by their Central Committee or leaders. Unless you can face up to that reality, you can’t understand the need for democracy and pluralism to be central to 21st century socialism

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  186. I think its entirely untrue that there were no differences between the two sides. I think that if this is not evident to those not in the organisation yet it soon will be. I’m personally regretful of the upset caused to some disorientated by the sharp arguments behind this neccessary shift. I’m not at all politically regretful though. We were never going to be able to play a part in re-generating the left if we didn’t get our shit togeather in relationship to these questions. It is of course a process. John Molyneux’s was recent very decent contribution to it.

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  187. I gather the bureaucracy nicknamed Molyneux the “right opposition”. Talk about turning history on its head. Since when has fighting to the hold the hierarchy to account been right wing? These people are capable of anything!

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  188. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    `You might want to say that there is a river of blood separating Leninism from Stalinism. I would agree. But to pretend that Lenin had nothing to do with creating the apparatus is to be blind to the facts, Trotsky pointed out that this is exactly what he did, see his Dialectical Notebooks.’

    Quote something he published.

    `The material conditions for bureaucratic rule undoubtedly existed post the Russian revolution.’

    How you think the conditions for bureaucratic rule existed during the brutal civil war in which the diet of the central committee was often less than that of the troops at the front is ridiculous. Lenin gave magnificent political leadership which created the necessary organisation to defeat the counter revolution that the bureacuracy seized some of the organs he built and used them to its own ends does not mean Lenin was bureaucratic minded or that he had built the proto-bureaucracy. Anti Leninism of the foulest kind. The conditions for bureaucracy only emerged after the defeat of the military defeat of the counter-revolution. They were:

    Exhaustion of the proletariat;
    Emergence of the material conditions to allow them the workers to indulge that exhaustion (economic recovery) i.e. retreat from politics allowing bureaucrats to move in;
    Delay in european and world revolution giving rise to isolation of revolution which emerging bureaucracy took advantage of to then make a virtue and finally a principal of.

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  189. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    should be `after the military defeat of the counter-revolution’ not `after the defeat of the military defeat …’

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  190. Well Bill its not the ‘bureacracy’ who made that incredible statement on a blog. Its an anonymous blogger claiming to represent left platform. This is where, quite seriously, your position seems to be very confused.

    On the question of the developing bureacracy which certainly did exist during the period of war communism I found Duncan Hallas old talk on the ‘Decline of the Comintern, very illuminating and honest here. Go to the site below and click on ‘decline of the comintern’. Essentially by the first proper meeting of the comintern in 1919 there was no soviet democracy in the Soviet Union, understood as actual class rule by the workers through their own institutions. There was a party with, to be sure, a mass base, substituting itself for those institutions. It was not yet Stalinism. But assuredly, given the collapse and ossification there was indeed a bureacracy. Symptoms of this can be seen in Trotsky’s own dreadful pamphlet on War and Terrorism from the period where he begins to come out with the absurd position that workers did not need rights against their own state. It was Lenin who sharply repudiated this pointing to the fact that whilst the Soviet Union remained a workers state it was a workers state with a bureacratic twist. Trotsky here was only expressing a much more general tendency for the bolsheviks to make a virtue out of neccessity. Certainly in the SWP tradition this is well recognised and always has been.

    Duncan’s talk which tackles this and other things (in particular a fascinating account of how the British, French and German Communist Party were transformed into bureacratic instruments: rather interestingly amongst other things a key lever was the downgrading and/or abolition of branches, and a one sided hostility to ‘talk’. Whilst this expressed in part bureacratic degeneration of the comintern it also had local features which revolutionaries today pre-occupied by the shape of revolutionary organisation in the 21st century can ill afford to ignore.

    Its the second talk down:
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/audioindex.htm

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  191. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    `Harry says that “Without the material conditions for it then bureacratism cannot arise let alone impose its rule.” It’s blindingly obvious that the membership of numerous socialist organisations have been politically expropriated by their Central Committee or leaders. Unless you can face up to that reality, you can’t understand the need for democracy and pluralism to be central to 21st century socialism.’

    Duncan: if you do not analyse the material basis of social phenomena then you are no marxist and I’m afraid that is the case. The Cold War sects were operating during a prolonged period of boom and political stability for Western Capitalism. They became a peripheral but integrated part of the system of British politics. The fourth international with Trotsky dead and with the world order stitched up between the quiescent Stalinists and Western imperialism degenerated to centrism pretty quickly. The post-war boom was the material basis for their degeneration but also their bureaucratic stabilisation. Centrist sects are normally pretty ephemeral and rise and fall and come and go rapidly as they are pushed from one crises to the next or gain some stability be remaining tiny and being dominated by some svengali like figure who rules by charisma and gullibility.

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  192. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    `Certainly in the SWP tradition this is well recognised and always has been.’

    I don’t see how anything to do with bureacuracy can be well recognised by the SWP given that it’s cc rules and reproduces itself bureaucratically.

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  193. Well perhaps you might see if you listened to the actual talk rather then responding via bureacratic fiat, in the time honoured fashion of the bureacratic sect.

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  194. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    `Trotsky’s own dreadful pamphlet on War and Terrorism’

    Oh that you could muster anything a billionth so dreadful.

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  195. Well I don’t know if I could. But I can think of plenty of pamphlets written by SWP members and non-SWP members that are a lot better then that dreadful pamphlet. You should remember Trotsky’s warning that ‘infallibility is for popes-not Marxists’. And those who forget this are perhaps not in the best position to lecture others about bureacracy, centrism and assorted other crimes.

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  196. Harry `Rope' Jones Avatar
    Harry `Rope’ Jones

    Give us a full review of its dreadfullness. Its incorrectness. Where and how it departs from Marxism. Actually it was recently re printed with an interesting foreward by Zizek.

    As far as I can tell you are just trying to trump Billj’s depiction of Lenin as a proto-Stalinist bureaucrat by adding Trotsky to that list. In fact, as Trotsky pointed out if Lenin had lived he would have ended up in one of Stalin’s gulags if not with a bullet in the back of his head. As it was he was likely poisoned by that criminal.

    On the question of workers not having differing interests from their own state you fail to contextualise Trotsky’s point which is generally true. He was saying this during or just after the civil war and was concerned that the trade unions who do not represent the interests of the working class generally might, for sectional and selfish reasons, and in desperate time undermine the fragility of the state. Lenin thought the perspective generally true but politically inexpedient because of the dangers of bureaucratism. Trotsky agreed.

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  197. johng – do you mean “Terrorism and Communism”? Maybe some of it goes too far, but much of what he says is a valuable rejoinder to Kautsky.

    billj – I guess Molyneux is more of “the correct opposition” these days.

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  198. “Anti Leninism of the foulest kind”

    Maybe. The very term Leninism was of course invented by Zinoviev/Stalin.
    If we take Trotsky seriously then we need to have a reassessment of the period of bureaucratic degeneration. Trotsky recognised later that the banning of factions in 1921 was a mistake and ended the “heroic period” of Bolshevism.
    Lenin was of course the principle advocate of the banning of factions.
    Who was it who campaigned against the ban on factions – first of all the Workers Opposition and then the Democratic Centralists. Indeed the Trotskyist opposition, which began later, absorbed most of the DCs most active members and took up a good deal of its analysis.
    But if the banning of factions was a mistake then that would have meant threatening to split the party. Do you think Lenin would have accepted such defiance? Of course not. There are material consequences to political decisions even those taken with the benefit of hindsight.
    It is a common place for leftist officials to sight the exigencies of the civil war and Lenin’s advocacy of the apparatus to justify their existence. It allows them to draw attention away from their own role in suffocating the left.
    Harry Jones wants a “Leninism” which exists outside of time and space. Hence his reference to material conditions. Lenin actually worked in material conditions and profoundly adverse ones. Who’s the idealist? The uncritical parrot of the thinking Marxist?

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  199. Well Lenin denounced Trotsky’s argument on workers and trade unions. Which I guess must put those who think Marxism is the science of cobbling togeather quotations into a bit of a fix. It is absolutely true that the bureaucratic degeneration already in motion just years after 1917 was the product of adverse circumstances. Its also true that what was involved was a hold operation which could be justified by the circumstances of the revolution. But being determines consciousness and the turning of neccessity into virtue was something which was to rebound. And if Communism and Terrorism (thanks for the correction SkidMarx) is perhaps the worst thing Trotsky ever wrote, far worst is Zizek’s appalling and lightminded defence of it which does’nt even have neccessity, much less utility, behind it.

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  200. As you say Johng, Zizek is basically a Stalinist who likes Trotsky because he thinks Trotsky’s a….Stalinist. The analogy hardly does HJs bilious defence any favours now does it?
    I don’t think Terrorism or Communism is dreadful, but it is a product of the moment and bears those scars.

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  201. Well I think its a dreadful book if it is trumpeted as a contribution to discussion now. There are far better books by Trotsky to read at present.

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  202. well there is no better book for revealling the true authoritarian nature of Trotsky

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  203. andy surely the effects of Pipes are beginning wear off by now?

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  204. Depends what you put in them and how often you puff

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