Liam redux

Students' whimsical choice of anti-racism officer

With occupations at Sussex, the elections of Clare Solomon and Ian Drummond, this Saturday’s march against redundancies and Mandelson’s £449m budget cuts there are signs of radical life emerging from the universities. Bucking the trend slightly are the students of the London School of Economics who while electing a Marxist as education officer have plumped…

Liam
1–2 minutes

With occupations at Sussex, the elections of Clare Solomon and Ian Drummond, this Saturday’s march against redundancies and Mandelson’s £449m budget cuts there are signs of radical life emerging from the universities.

Bucking the trend slightly are the students of the London School of Economics who while electing a Marxist as education officer have plumped for the Israel Society’s candidate as their anti-racism officer.

Just to refresh your memory the Israeli state is the one which has been starving the people of Gaza since they voted for a Hamas government and just over a year ago subjected them to a medieval siege using twenty first century weaponry. It’s the one which prevented its Muslim citizens from praying in the Al-Aqsa earlier this week and which was established by displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Not too much empathy is needed to work out that it’s a template of an apartheid, colonial, racist state.

Students are entitled to be a bit irresponsible and no one minds when they bathe in beans for charity or subsist for three years on Pot Noodles and Jeremy Kyle. It’s part of growing up. It’s not so funny when they subvert the very concept of anti-racism by electing an advocate of an aggressively and murderously racist state to an officership.

Looking at the results it’s obvious that this travesty was only made possible by the splitting of the serious anti-racist vote. What needs to happen next is that a motion of no confidence be put and won to be followed by a fresh election with unity around a candidate who displays a rudimentary understanding of anti-racism.

86 responses to “Students' whimsical choice of anti-racism officer”

  1. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    liam you are either being far too subtle or you just stepped over into plain anti-semitism. What exactly is your objection to this guy?

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  2. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    There is no subtlety. Defence of the Israeli state is incompatible with meaningful anti racism.

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  3. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Has he defended the Israeli state anyway and is defence of it incompatiable with anti-racism?Completely incompatiable/mostly incompatiable/a little bit incompatiable? Anyway I thought that the LSE Israel society had made some mild criticisms of the gaza conflict.

    I would admit that the man himself does sound like a total right-wing (ABUSE DELETED), but that’s not to say the other candidates aren’t either. The LSE palestinian society has had a roster of international anti-semites to speak at it’s meetings, and they seemed to be instrumental in blocking motions condemning a rise of anti-semitism on campus; would that bar any of their members standing by your own twisted logic?

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  4. alf Avatar
    alf

    To state that you “just stepped over into plain anti-semitism” is totally unacceptable. Liam has correctly identified and explained the impact of the Israeli zionist state on Palestinians. That is not anti-semitic and it is about time that defenders of zionism stop perpetrating this lie.

    Liam has a proud record of fighting all forms of racism, sexism and homophobia. You should withdraw this comment Martin as it is unwarranted to say the least.

    Many of us Jews are fed up with supporters of zionism hiding behind such an attack. We are proud to be associated with Muslim brothers and sisters in opposing racism both here and elsewhere, including Israel.

    Martin remember what Marx said, ” a nation that oppresses another nation can not itself be free”.

    The use of terms such as “self hating jews”,” anti-zionism equals anti-semitism ” etc is a debased defence of the indefensible- a racist state built on “Jewish labour only” but Palestinian pain much.

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  5. RobM Avatar
    RobM

    Come on Martin- this is desperate stuff.
    has he defended the Israeli state? Well, he’s the candidate put forward by an organisation which exists to defend the Israeli state so draw your own conclusions.

    Is defending racism completely / mostly incompatible with being an anti-racism officer?
    That’s a no-brainer…

    Is it OK to make ‘mild criticisms’ of things which are utterly, abhorrently wrong?
    Ditto.

    Rest of your stuff is just nonsense from someone unable to distinguish between oppressed and oppressor.

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  6. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Alf: I didn’t say Liam was an antisemite. He condemns himself by his own words, I ask: “you are either being far too subtle or you just stepped over into plain anti-semitism.”

    he replies: “There is no subtlety”. Draw your own conclusion as to what he considers himself.

    I don’t think it is taken as a given that a member of an Israel society at college is either necessarily a racist or (as I think Liam is suggesting -but he doesn’t make it clear) unable to be an anti-racist.

    So far there seems to be no evidence either way about the man who was elected.

    Apart from the fact that I can’t make the same logical conclusion as you and liam -that membership of a society=barrier- to office I agree with every word you wrote Alf. I look forward to you rushing to my defence next time Ian Donovan or some other idiot dencounce me as being an Islamophobe for arguing for a twin state solution.

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  7. alf Avatar
    alf

    Arguing for a 2 nation state is not Islamaphobic but if the State is a bantustan state then it means it is based on the oppression of Palestinians.

    As for the other point. It is incumbent on those in the society plus their reps, to oppose racism at all levels. Anything else becomes their own contradiction.

    However anti-racism means consistency at home and abroad.

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  8. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    Is it possible to be a Zionist and an anti-racist? Maybe, inasmuch as you could conceive of someone wanting a Zionist state in the abstract without removing the Palestinian population, although its difficult to imagine there is actually such an individual alive today.
    Is it possible to be an anti-racist if you support the law of return? The law that racially discriminates against Palestinians and their right to return to their homeland? Of course not.
    The AWL support the law of return.

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  9. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    If this guy’s twitter page any guide, he’s a mad Spurs fan who should be running the football society rather than the anti-racist work. http://twitter.com/bengrabiner

    More seriously, he offer the sort of faith-driven approach towards racism which sees racism as a series of conflucts between communities (he’s heavly involved in the Three Faiths Forum) rather than representing expressions of political and economic power. I think the LSE needs an activist anti-racist campaign, and one which focusses on Islamophobia as the deepest form of racism unfolding in Britain today, as seen by the EDL’s focus on the Muslim communities.

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  10. alf Avatar
    alf

    Hey do not attack Spurs fans,. This guy has just added to our problems.

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  11. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Liam,

    I don’t understand your argument here, are you suggesting that someone who accepts Israel’s right to exist can’t be an antiracist?

    Or that you think merely agreeing to Israel’s right to exist is incompatible?

    Now if you think that, then obviously you’re calling the majority of British and Irish Jews racist, in a not too subtle fashion.

    If, however, you think the individual candidate has some problems with antiracism then that is another question.

    Liam, please could you elaborate on your arguments?

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  12. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    I know absolutely nothing about this candidate other than what he has put in the public domain and am happy to take that at face value.

    What would the role of an Israel Society be in a college if not to justify the policies and actions of the Israeli state? These policies and actions have involved racist legislation, racist land theft, racist murder since the state was created.

    Many of us have a problem reconciling defence of these things with any definition of anti racism.

    To use an historical analogy, if someone had set up a South African society in a college in 1980 would they a been a plausible anti-racism officer no matter how much faith based language they used?

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  13. James Connolly Avatar
    James Connolly

    This really isn’t as difficult as some people are making out. In short, it would be near impossible for anyone to reconcile support for the Israeli state – *in its current form* – with a sincere commitment to antiracism.

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  14. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Forgive me, I don’t wish to be rude, but you are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of issues which may or may not be true.

    Would someone that was a member of the Australian society be ineligible?

    What about the Canadian society?

    What about if a student belonged to the Saudi society?

    Could they be an anti racist?

    Of course, but someone might believe that supporting Australia, a colonial entity or Canada were incompatible.

    Equally, would you blame a student for belonging to a Saudi society? remembering that Country implements gender apartheid, also ethnic apartheid.

    and is about to kill someone for “sorcery”, etc etc

    So if you start with the loss of lazy assumptions then you can draw a lot of questionable conclusions.

    Liam, shorter version for you, what do you think most British and Irish Jews think of Israel? That it should vanish overnight?

    You might want to think how you relate to Jews in your answer.

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  15. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    Hmmm, not sure I’m following what modernityblog is saying.

    IME, Liam relates to Jews just fine. Personally, I’d be joining the Litvak society. Or maybe the “still in galut and happy there – now leave me alone” society. So, a few lazy assumptions from modernityblog, I suspect.

    Apparently the Israel Society exists “to create awareness of Israeli issues, a better understanding of events in Middle East and organise social and cultural events” – not one word of ethnoreligious affinities. After all, a significant minority (25%) of Israeli citizens, and (by a small margin) the majority living under Israeli rule, are not Jewish. Looking forward to recognition of this from any university Israel Society any time soon….

    Anyhow, LSE students – get what they vote for and one big shrug from me.

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  16. alf Avatar
    alf

    While some are arguing the niceties of an abstract defence of Israel , Zionism or 2 nationism, lets have a reality check. Today Israel kills another Palestinian on the occupied West Bank and Israeli planes attack Gaza. Israel’s illegal acts are both racist and illegal.

    Who ever defends such a society must answer for that society. Now where does this young man who claims to stand for equal opps stand on this?

    Israel is a racist state and no intellectual and liberal abstract arguements can change that fact. Can Israeli society be ant-racist without dezionising itself?

    These are the real issues and I hope the LSE students think about this in reconsidering their decision.

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  17. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    I’ll attempt to reply to Moralityblog with an example. Many years ago – and this may still happen for all I know – the DUP branch at Queens used to put up a candidate for Irish language officer. They never won, but it wasn’t entirely inconceivable that they might have done.

    Now, do you see the problem there?

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  18. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Liam,

    Not sure if your trouble to answer the above points, but I’ll leave you with this thought:

    You made some very rash assumptions here: essentially that someone couldn’t support Israel and do the job of anti-racist officer in Britain.

    Well there is the converse of that particular argument (it is rather crude but essentially similar)

    So following that, is it possible for those British and Irish political activists who are vigorously anti-Israel to be serious about anti-Jewish racism?

    Liam, do you think that it is possible for political activists in Britain and Ireland, who are stridently against Israel, to be serious on the topic of anti-Jewish racism?

    Well??

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  19. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    Modernityblog, one of the less important reasons why I’m so “stridently” against Israel is because I am serious about racism, which of course includes racism against Jews.

    Fighting racism =/= supporting the racial privilege and racist policies of the formerly and/or elsewhere oppressed.

    The implication of your comments is that being Jewish is inherently to support Israel (a racist state). I consider this in itself to be a racist slur, and urge you to clarify your position.

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  20. alf Avatar
    alf

    If Jewish supporters of Israel are actively involved in anti-racist / anti-fascist activity here or elsewhere, working alongside other anti-fascists within a united front, then I would welcome them but then they must follow through the logic of their position and question openly the racist nature of the Israeli state.

    If zionists use this as a reason for not participating in anti-fascist activity in the UK then that shows Zionism as a political movement can not offer anything in the struggle against anti-semitism or any other form of racism.

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  21. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Liam,

    I think my previous point, that is it possible for those British and Irish political activists who are vigorously anti-Israel to be serious about anti-Jewish racism?

    Seems to hold, by virtue of your unwillingness, inability or lack of desire to address these issues.

    It is a pity, Liam, I have would hope you’d be more serious on the topic of anti-Jewish racism.

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  22. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    Liam: I would ban Modernityblog after what he just said about you and Martin Ohr for calling you a self-identifying anti-semite. They have ruined Dave O’s blog though zionist trolling of his comments facility and unfortunately he has proved to weak to clear them out. Don’t make the same mistake. Give them an inch and these zio-zealots will take a mile.

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  23. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Alf, “If Jewish supporters of Israel are actively involved in anti-racist / anti-fascist activity here or elsewhere, working alongside other anti-fascists within a united front, then I would welcome them but then they must follow through the logic of their position and question openly the racist nature of the Israeli state.”

    I’m trying to follow through your logic here. The problem comes down not just to the meaning of words, but what you intended them to mean. Just “supporters of Israel” is tricky to get to grips with in itself.

    I’m not sure if you mean me, but I’ll state my position, I support the existence of Israel alongside an independant Palestine as a medium term solution towards solving a particular national question. Even without the existence of a suitable palestinian state I’m against the destruction of Israel as it currently stands by force from outside except by workers revolution. I don’t agree that Israel is by it’s very existance a racist state or a semi colony etc- but that it is the policies of subsequent governments since the 1960s that have wrought havoc on the palestinians. I condemn completely the invasion of Gaza and operation Cast Lead.

    Does that make me suspect in terms of a genuine commitment to anti-racism; you seem to be implying that?

    Liam. The problem with your orginal post seems to be that you quickly jump to the conclusion that this bloke who got elected was no good- you may well have been correct, but you didn’t know it at the time. The wierd thing is that seems to happen a lot of times to jews- quickly judged to be suspicious. The left doesn’t seem to have a problem with that anymore where anti-semitism is concerned.

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  24. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    David Ellis; I’ve been called lots of things but never been called a zio-zealot before- I can’t even imagine what it means. I prefer plain language so I hope you don’t mind if I call you a total wanker.

    Liam can defend his self but he’s chosen not to- fair enough.

    I think his original post is misguided and can easily read like plain antisemitism- other people disagree, but we can still have a reasonable debate about it without your stupidity.

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  25. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    How can a reasonable debate take place with someone who calls the host of this blog with his public record a self-identifying anti-semite? Go away cult man. Your poison should be shared with the EDL not the left.

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  26. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    “Go away cult man. Your poison should be shared with the EDL not the left.” !?

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  27. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    You heard Mussolini.

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  28. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    David Ellis: “You heard Mussolini” never heard him I’m afraid, I’m much too young and anyway my Italian is so poor I’d struggle to understand.

    So what was it that Mussolini was saying?

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  29. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    “I don’t agree that Israel is by it’s very existance a racist state or a semi colony etc- but that it is the policies of subsequent governments since the 1960s that have wrought havoc on the palestinians.”

    This is your mistake. How is it possible to create a “Jewish state” (whatever that may mean, but surely implying some sense of Jewish privilege/ethnonationalist basis of the state) in a country in which Jews constitute about 3% of the population, without dispossessing the vast majority of their land, livelihood and rights?

    That is the process that is inherent in the zionist project. Now, sometimes historical facts change things, and the fact of Jewish immigration to British Mandate Palestine and then the State of Israel creates a new situation – no one doubts it. But your notion that the injustices inherent in the establishment of the State of Israel began only in the 1960s…that is a fantasy.

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  30. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Jodley- good points, it’s nice to debate them in a rational way isn’t it. My question is that me having that opinion on Israel -does it mean I can’t be an anti-racist?

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  31. alf Avatar
    alf

    Jews have always played a role in the struggles against racism. Zionism however has a poor record.
    The zionist movement in the 30’s put their own national agenda ahead of the needs of the struggle against the fascists. This has been well documented.

    In Harrow last December yes representatives of the Jewish community came out publically in opposition to the EDL and joined in the rally that took place there. This was a welcomed move. They did not come as supporters of Israel, although no doubt they were, but first and foremost in solidarity with Muslims against Islamaphobia.

    Similarly today that is what needs to be encouraged. But not at the expense of remaining silent over the treatment of Palestinians.

    So Martin yes you can be anti-racist but that must be applied internationally as well. That is your contradiction but I will link arms with you against the fascists here and elsewhere. Will the Board of Deputies do the same?.

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  32. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    But if you support the law of return- a racist law that excludes Palesinians – you are at least treading on dodgy ground.

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  33. alf Avatar
    alf

    Agreed but by involving Jews in anti-fascist action devalues the relevence of a zionist state as a means to protect Jews from anti-semitism. That is why zionists held back from the ANL in the 70’s and the UAF today. They would rather put the needs of the Israeli State first

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  34. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    “My question is that me having that opinion on Israel -does it mean I can’t be an anti-racist?”

    It means that your anti-racism has a some substantial blinds spots and is not as thorough-going as it could be, either through genuine ignorance or willful ignorance.

    If someone claims to know a great deal about the history of Israel, and also holds your views, then it is likely that any professed ignorance is more willful than genuine.

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  35. alf Avatar
    alf

    you can support the anti-racist movement but do not be surprised if that movement also asks for you to be consistent. Hence your contradiction to work out and not a barrier to be used against your participation in it.

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  36. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    DELETED.

    MARTIN THAT IS YOUR THIRD DELETION FOR ABUSE IN THIS DISCUSSION INCLUDING ONE INSULT DIRECTED AT THE STUDENT YOU ARE DEFENDING. IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN YOU’LL JOIN THE LIST OF CONTRIBUTORS WHO ARE MODERATED BEFORE THEIR COMMENT IS RELEASED.

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  37. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    nice to debate in a rational way with you too!

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  38. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    Not to mention….how does that even work?

    Is there some categorical difference between “domestic” racism and racism per se? Can one really divorce the positions one takes on racial privilege and discrimination in international contexts from the position one takes on the same phenomena within UK borders, or in principle?

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  39. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    I’ve not been able to take part in this discussion fully because I’ve been working on the translation for a new edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion that Socialist Resistance is publishing next month.

    Being labelled an anti-semite appeals so much to my taste for the absurd that I can’t be arsed to argue with either Martin or Modernity. There are a few other downright peculiar anti-semites on this thread who seem to agree with me.

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  40. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Liam,

    You are not being labelled as anything and certainly not as an antisemite by me

    I am making a simple parallel, if your point that someone (who happens to be Jewish) as a member of a student Israeli society can’t be anti racist, according to you

    then equally, the proposition that those British and Irish activists who are stridently anti-Israel probably don’t take anti-Jewish racism seriously, is equally valid.

    Remember it is **you** who are criticising the above individual without any evidence, as you state.

    Liam, so tell me, do you think that political activists in Britain and Ireland who are stridently anti-Israel can take anti-Jewish racism seriously?

    What is your view? Or don’t you believe that the issue of racism should be debated?

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  41. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    “DELETED.
    MARTIN THAT IS YOUR THIRD DELETION FOR ABUSE IN THIS DISCUSSION”

    Liam, you’ve made my comment totally incomprehensible. Thanks for that. For reference – in amongst the abuse, martin ohr was arguing that a person’s position on any international question has no relevance to the sincerity or efficacy of their anti-racism.

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  42. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    Modernityblog, upthread I urged you to clarify your position vis-a-vis Jews qua Jews and Israel – can I urge you again?

    “The implication of your comments is that being Jewish is inherently to support Israel…”

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  43. alf Avatar
    alf

    Ok to end this I hope that all of you will be in Dudley and elsewhere against the BNP/EDL. I will discuss the finer points with you whilst on the demo.

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  44. Duncan Chapel Avatar
    Duncan Chapel

    Peresonally, I don’t expect that Martin Ohr is the head of an Israel Society and would be surprised if someone who was became a member of the AWL, the pro-Israel organistion he is part of. I think Martin would also accept that there is a difference between this guy, who seems to have no track record of campaigning on racism other than anti-semitism, and (speaking hypothetically) either a UJS activist with a serious track-record on anti-racism broadly or an AWL member who supports direct links with both Palestinian and Israeli organisations. Both would be more effective than a sports wonk who is placed by machine politics to prevent a candidate who might speak out against the crimes of the Israeli state.

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  45. martin ohr Avatar
    martin ohr

    Duncan,

    I think there is a difference yes- but Alf and Jodley seem to think not.

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    1. Liam Avatar
      Liam

      Here’s Gerald Kaufman’s take on things.

      Strong words from the quartet about Israel’s obstruction of the Middle East peace process (Report, 20 March); but, as with Obama, words only. As usual, all possible strong action will be taken, short of actual action. Only when economic sanctions and an arms ban are imposed will Israel take heed. But that’s not going to happen. So the Israelis will go on with their destructive behaviour until existential facts take over, the number of Palestinians outnumbers Jews, Israeli apartheid becomes even more blatantly evident, a two-state solution is gone for good, and a one-state solution will eventually occur, that state not being Israel.   http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/24/little-action-on-israel-palestine  

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  46. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Liam,

    So no discussion of racism from you?

    Frankly you’ve made my point for me.

    Pity I thought you were more serious

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  47. alf Avatar
    alf

    Yes if Gerald Kaufman has moved his position then others also need to open up their eyes to the reality of Israeli policies. Modernityblog I suggest you also review your blinkered position.

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  48. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    I think there is a difference yes- but Alf and Jodley seem to think not.

    ++++++++++++++

    Your question wasn’t “Is there a difference between the anti-racism of Ben Grabiner and Martin Ohr?” (to which Duncan addressed his comments).

    Rather, you asked whether “having that opinion on Israel [i.e. that it is not a racist state] – does it mean I can’t be an anti-racist?” to which my response was that in that your case your anti-racism “has a some substantial blinds spots and is not as thorough-going as it could be.”

    This is just the logical conclusion of my previous comment that Jewish privilege and dispossession of the non-Jewish majority are inherent to the political Zionist project. A comment, incidentally, to which your responded “good points, it’s nice to debate them in a rational way” – but then that was before you called me a fucking idiot.

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  49. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    I am a bit uncomfortable wth Liam’s argument here.

    Zionism is a two faced phenomenon, both a colonial projct of settlement in the MIddel East, and also a historical seperatist strategy for resisting Anti-Semitism.

    Personally I see no reason why a Zionist should not simultaneoulsy be an anti-racist; in the same way that many main stream social democrats could both support British colonialism and also oppose racsm.

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  50. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    It was certainly the case in the 1970s that many Zionists (as in ‘people who supported Israel’s right to exist’) worked with and joined the Anti Nazi League, as did many people who weren’t opposed to all immigration controls. From a Marxist perspective, that’s inconsistent, but if people want to be active in the fight against racism here and now I don’t think we should set barriers in their way.

    I don’t think the LSE case falls into that category, though. It’s hard to avoid the suspicion that he’s using the post to push the ‘anti-zionism =anti-semitism’ nonsense, and if I was at
    LSE I’d probably be thinking about how to challenge him.

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  51. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTPIzMEPueM

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  52. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    `Zionism is a two faced phenomenon, both a colonial projct of settlement in the MIddel East, and also a historical seperatist strategy for resisting Anti-Semitism.’

    A colonial project of settlement requires a racist approach to those all ready there but I don’t think Zionism is a contradictory phenomenon any more than say the EDL are. Zionism requires anti-semitism and often supports it and is not therefore a strategy for over-coming it. A labour or trade union bureaucrat is however contradictory in that he is a reactionary who rests on something progressive.

    The video shows that this chap intends to use his position to get the university to oppose all support for Palestinians despite his hypocritical claim that matters far away are of no concern to him.

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  53. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    I wonder if those commenting on the video have actually listen to it?

    Towards the end he states that he has experience having done work with hope not hate, campaigned against Islamophobia and antisemitism, done inter-faith stuff, etc all rather reasonable.

    It might have been an idea to view the video before assuming the very worse of him.

    I fully appreciate that the arguments against him were not ( I repeat: NOT) motivated by ignorance or prejudice, rather they are the product of ideology, but most people reading this thread may assume the former rather than the latter, as his views haven’t been taken seriously, and many assumptions were made about him, merely because he was a member of the Israeli society.

    And as anti-racists, you might want to think on that, a bit.

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  54. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    I did view the video before posting it, and noted the references at the end. I thought they were overshadowed by the committment to use the anti-racist officer position to end “divisive” political argument on international questions. I also wondered what he meant by “hate speech” and wheher (following on immediately from his reference to those divisive international questions) it referred to that old canard “anti-zionism = anti-semitism”.

    Interfaith activity has that multiculti angle (if we all understand each other better then we can all get alone), which is fine at a personal level, if you are interested in comparative religion – but isn’t really a strategy for anti-racist work, because it misses out the issue of power. Hope not Hate is a good thing to support – I’d be interested in hearing more about his concrete actions (could be anything from organizing a local group through to posting the logo on his facebook page). Unfortunately he spent most of his hustings talking about those divisive international issues etc, so didn’t have time to elaborate much on practical actions.

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  55. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Assumptions, assumptions and assumptions, nearly always assuming the very worst, particularly when the person involved is Jewish.

    It is ashamed that the video wasn’t viewed before the post was completed, and how commenters can’t seem to see it from the other side, and how it looks from the outside.

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  56. alf Avatar
    alf

    Modernityblog, as a jew i find your comments to be verging on the offensive as you make false assumptions, fail to acknowledge points and try to infer that we criticise him as a Jew.
    I criticise him because he endorses a political system that oppresses the Palestinians.
    If he and others are prepared to be involved in the fight against fascism and racism, joining in with other anti-fascists then as I said, that is his contradiction and not mine.
    Unfortunately many zionists have used this as a reason not to participate in the anti-fascist movements because it means they come in contact with those who criticise Israel. I say this as a Jew.

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  57. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    I find it offensive when people make assumptions on the views of a member of an Israeli society, when they wouldn’t do it to any other ethnicity or social minority.

    I doubt this post would have been written with such vigour had the candidate for anti-racist officer at the LSE been a member of the Chinese society.

    Now why might that have hypothetically been an issue?

    Well, China’s brutal treatment of the Tibetans for one, the occupation of Tibet, the continuous rule which is only made possible by a massive state machinery, etc etc

    And you could make a similar case for another nations, and make plenty assumptions that because someone belonged to a student Chinese society, that they colluded with the Chinese ruling classes.

    You could make those assumptions, if you were bigoted, prejudice or driven by ideological excess, but it would be wrong to do that.

    It would be wrong to prejudge a person’s views without hearing or at least making an effort to find out what they were.

    And that’s what’s wrong, assumptions and assumptions, which as chjh pointed out can be very wrong.

    Personally I don’t think anyone here is driven by prejudice.

    Ideology is the issue, but someone looking in and reading this thread might take a different view, and the fact that people here can’t even consider how it looks from the outside is worrying.

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  58. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    Now why might that have hypothetically been an issue?
    And that’s what’s wrong, assumptions
    Any further comment necessary?

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  59. bill j Avatar
    bill j

    I though the meaning of the video was crystal clear. This guy wants to stop solidarity with Palestine. As I am sure will become clear over the next year or so.

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  60. alf Avatar
    alf

    So he would say stoping solidarity with Palestinians is ok but stopping solidarity with an oppressive Israeli state is not ok.
    Perhaps state education is wasted on some!

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  61. Jodley Avatar
    Jodley

    Modernityblog, as a jew i find your comments to be verging on the offensive

    ++++++++++++

    Ditto. In fact, I asked modernityblog to clarify her or his position on whether being Jewish is inherently to support Israel, since I consider that in itself to be a slur. She or he has not taken the opportunity to do so.

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  62. alf Avatar
    alf

    The zionists will never answer that as it destroys the myth they have built up and rely on.

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  63. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    “I though the meaning of the video was crystal clear.”

    Maybe, maybe not, but the article was not premised on the young student’s views, which would have been entirely legitimate to criticise, rather it was based on the supposition of what he might or might not believe.

    Which is entirely different.

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  64. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    So the assumptions made about him turn out to be entirely true, but it was still wrong to make those assumptions, because he could have been a member of a pro-imperialist society for completely innocent reasons.

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  65. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    er, no, they didn’t but chjh, you have to be very careful with this initial line of reasoning because it leads you into silly places.

    Let me give you an example.

    Should we assume that all SWPers are bigots, conspiracy theorists and anti-Jewish racists, simply because the SWP consciously hosted and pushed the anti-Jewish racist, Gilad Atzmon are over four years? Well?

    Because if you start down the line of assuming people’s beliefs (without making an effort to research them), and always in the worst possible way, then you’re in the territory of the irrational, prejudice and the far right.

    Personally, I wouldn’t want to assume anything about an individual member of the SWP’s views about Jews, etc irrespective of the vigorous support given to an anti-Jewish racist, Gilad Atzmon, by the SWP.

    Therefore, in the same way that it would be wrong to assume that SWPers by virtue of their organisation’s support for Atzmon are somehow “contaminated” or bigoted, it would be wrong, misleading and illogical to assume the views of a member of a student Israeli society.

    Chjh, I hope you see the parallels?

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  66. andyinswindon Avatar
    andyinswindon

    Modernity:

    Well, China’s brutal treatment of the Tibetans for one, the occupation of Tibet, the continuous rule which is only made possible by a massive state machinery, etc etc

    A strange racism which exempts Tibetans from the one child policy, which requires all government offiicials in the Autonomous Region to speak Tibetan, where Tibetans are proportionately better represented in the parliament and higher reaches of the CPC than Han, and where the national rigyhts of the Tibetan people are enshrined in the constitution.

    This really is offensive nonsense from modernity.

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  67. alf Avatar
    alf

    Modernity blog it is quite simple. He needs to issue a statement in solidarity with Palestinians and
    call for Israel to withdraw from occupied territories, then we can talk.

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  68. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    The fact that someone belongs to the Chinese society doesn’t tell you anything about their position on China’s occupation of Tibet. The fact of someone belonging to a Jewish society wouldn’t tell you anything about their position on Palestine. If someone set up a People’s Republic of China society (for the nation-state, not the ethnicity), it would be reasonable to infer that they supported the PRC’s positions on Tibet and Xinjiang.

    But the parallel doesn’t hold at a deeper level. The existence of the People’s Republic is not predicated on the denial of Tibetan rights. China could withdraw from Tibet, or grant Tibet real autonomy on the Hong Kong model, and lose nothing except face. Israel’s existence as a nation-state is predicated on the denial of Palestinian rights.

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  69. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    More excuses for the Chinese dictatorship?

    Andy,

    It is quite conceivable that there might be more than one reason why they didn’t, couldn’t implement the one child policy in Tibet.

    I doubt it was because they were being nice to the Tibetans.

    Bearing in mind that China’s rule in Tibet only exists because of armed bodies of men who enforce it, a massive state machinery to repress the Tibetans.

    And who is the most senior person in Tibet, the real decision maker? An appointee from Beijing.

    So you can try to sanitised China’s rule in Tibet, but these excuses don’t bear scrutiny.

    PS: Having said that if a member of a student China’s society had been put forward and as with the above article someone objected, than I would have argued against it.

    Suppositions, assumptions, telepathy and mind reading are not the currency that socialists should be using.

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  70. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Chjh,

    You are forgetting all of the raw materials, precious metals, water resources, etc which are expropriated for the benefit of the Beijing dictatorship, so they do have something to lose other than face, from a materialist point of view.

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  71. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Morality may be interested to learn that the one-child policy applies only to ethnic Han. Uighurs, Hui, Zhuang and other minorities get a pass on it as well. There are plenty of things the PRC can be criticised for, but often reality is rather more complex than the splittist Dalai clique would have you believe.

    Suppositions, assumptions, telepathy and mind reading are not the currency that socialists should be using.

    Motes and beams, Morality, motes and beams.

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  72. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    Well let us apply our collective brain to this:

    The Chinese ruling class may have decided not to implement something, not thru their charitable nature, but because it might cause more trouble than it worth

    They might have decided that trying to enforce the one child policy on the Tibetans may cause them to revolt, to rise up and to throw off the shackles of China’s imperialism.

    The Chinese ruling class may have decided that it’s not worth the candle.

    A virtue out of a necessity? Could it be as simple as that? Hmm.

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  73. alf Avatar
    alf

    Whereas the Palestinians are resisting and fighting back. Oh dear dear. Not cricket is it.

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  74. shug Avatar
    shug

    Only if you walk on the salt or flopght, got it to give it to the spelin culture.The dead sea is what if you choose, you can float on.A bit like the windy sand, always there.But cover your face, WE WILL GET THERE.

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  75. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    Water resources? Water resources are expropriated in the occupied West Bank of Palestine by illegal Israeli settlements siphoning off water from Palestinian communities, but it’s stretching the word to apply it to China and Tibet.

    Many of China’s rivers (and southeast Asia’s, and India’s) have their sources on the Tibetan plateau, it being higher than the surrounding countries. They then flow downhill, as water so often does. Tibet couldn’t possibly use the volume of water generated, so it’s difficult to see how there’s any theft involved.

    modernity would have slightly more of a point about raw materials, if Beijing was actually expropriating these. At the moment Tibet’s minerals industry barely exists, though China’s plans for Tibet do include greater extraction over the next 20 years.

    It would make more sense to wax indignant about China’s exploitation of Xinjiang’s mineral resources, but for some strange reason the Zionist trolls who use Tibet as an excuse for Israel’s crimes never show the same degree of concern for Xinjiang. I can’t think why…

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  76. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    chjh,

    forgive me, but I feel sorry that you are the SWP specialist on China, if you made the effort you can find out all about raw materials which are taken from Tibet.

    Unless you wish to argue, as a materialist, that the Chinese ruling class actions in Tibet are motivated by something else other than materialism and exploitation?

    I have posted elsewhere China’s exploitation of Tibetan raw materials and the rape of the countryside, with links naturally, you can look up them if you wish

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  77. shug Avatar
    shug

    85 percent or near enough of our being is water.Our world world is flowing with the stuff.Now some talk of borders and stuff ,saying that the water that flows belongs to them.How much water does it take to cool the barrel.

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  78. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    As chjh says, there is a rather more obvious example of the exploitation of water resources by an occupying power. That would be the illegal and racially-exclusive settlements on the West Bank that have massive sprinklers going 24/7.

    But mention that, and what we get from Moralityblog is that there’s nothing to be discussed here because Tibet! Also Hitler! And have you seen this letter that was published in Socialist Worker in 1980?! Nothing to see here!!!

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  79. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    It is a pity that otherwise educated people, such as splintered sunrise, can’t discuss politics in a mature way, are profoundly ill informed on many of these topics, despite having access to the Internet, which gives you the opportunity to study, read and digest information from around the world.

    I suppose it is a consequence of that petty bourgeois student politics?

    But who knows, as the evidence shows, it doesn’t achieve much and is soon destined for the dustbin of history.

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  80. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    And Israeli settlements’ theft of Palestian water?

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  81. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    Now, don’t be unkind to Morality. For all the expensive education he’s had, it evidently didn’t include English comprehension. Although he is very good indeed at derailing a thread.

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  82. modernityblog Avatar
    modernityblog

    My education was as cheap as they come, and I can only blame my tutor, myself, because unlike most here I am self educated working-class, but that doesn’t matter.

    What matters is that you can argue a particular point lucidly, and employ evidence based reasoning, without prejudice.

    That clearly isn’t the case here, so I will say my farewells.

    It is a pity that you can’t discuss the issue of racism with any maturity, but I am not entirely surprised.

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  83. skidmarx Avatar
    skidmarx

    Some of us certainly can’t.

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  84. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    Speaking of Israel and China’s occupation of Tibet, there’s an interesting photo here http://info.tibet.cn/en/newfeature/faf2003/t20050517_29597.htm

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  85. chjh Avatar
    chjh

    Speaking of Israel and China’s occupation of Tibet, there’s an interesting photo in this article http://info.tibet.cn/en/newfeature/faf2003/t20050517_29597.htm

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