imageThanks to friends in low places I wangled a place at a SOAS seminar  on the economy with journalist Paul Mason, István Mészáros the Marxist writer, John Rees of Counterfire and the economist Graham Turner. The videos are here.

For the innumerate few subjects are more challenging and my heart sank when a handout with a load of graphs was distributed. With a bit of explanation they all made perfect sense. There was nothing but bad news in them.The one thing they all had in common was that they were heading down – ten consecutive months of decline in construction; real wages in Britain and Euroland are falling; manufacturing output relative to its peak is down 28% There has been no recovery in British manufacturing and Graham, who should know about these things, said 30% of the economy is now finance, banking and services. A policy of deindustrialisation has amplified the impact of the recession.

István Mészáros turned Obama’s light at the end of the tunnel metaphor on its head arguing that it’s a train coming rather than daylight that the president had spotted. He was confident that this will be a double dip recession – a contention that none of the other panellists dissented from. He stuck a very elegant boot into economists like Mervyn King, who only a few years ago had been eulogising globalisation and the rise of the finance sector. Quoting the Financial Times he focussed on how the new neo-liberal consensus is to radically shrink the state and the wages of those employed by it while continuing to keep afloat the parasitic finance sector. His prediction that whoever wins the election will oversee the retreat of the state rang true.

Paul Mason located himself outside the broad framework of the other speakers.  He reminded us of one of the facts we’ve all got filed away somewhere, that median male hourly wages in the United States are at the same level they were in 1973. Debt is what allows people to buy homes, cars and get educated in the US and Britain and it’s what accounts for the steep increase in home repossessions despite some aid from the federal government and falling house prices. An interesting observation from Paul was that the initial neo-liberal response to the recession had been to let it rip unchecked, recreating the havoc caused by the closure of the mines and steelworks for the Starbucks era. Just as they insisted that the state back them in the good times so they demanded that it bail out the financial sector in the bad times.

It was his reply to the discussion that gave the most food for thought. Having suggested that there is a debate in some marginal sectors of capitalism he took issue with an approach that looks at how to intervening into the debate, organising demonstrations to nationalise the banks and raising demands he insisted that his audience needs to have something coherent to say to Mandelson about what proportion of the economy should be state run and where the money would come from. He was right to observe that climate change and the growth of green industries will have a big role in shaping a new economy. His prediction that in one hundred years the new technological innovations will have created a world of plenty is rather more tendentious.

John Rees dwelt more on the political aspects of the situation citing strong evidence that most people still adhere to the welfarist concept of the state – precisely the bit that both parties are bragging they are going to cut.  At the same time they are not joining parties or unions in anything like the way they used to. On the other hand numbers attending demonstrations are up as are those signing petitions. These too are forms of political activity. Observing that the left has failed to rise to the scale of the challenge he pointed out that it lacks a clear voice in the debate. As a short term objective he proposed a forum in which the left could begin to formulate a view on things like the Tobin tax, the attack on the social wage and articulate a persuasive response to neo-liberalism

A much longer account would be needed to do justice to the richness of the contributors’ idea and the discussion. If time permits I might do a pen portrait of one attendee to get it out of my system. The chair, Clare Solomon said “we are going to take a few questions after which there will be lots of time for discussion.” A cat would understand that sentence. Why then does someone who obviously had some experience of offering his opinion spend five minutes rambling on about the role of labour in human societies? A rhetorical question.

79 responses to “An evening of the dismal science”

  1. I probably should know, but what is SOAS

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  2. SOAS is the School of Oriental and African Studies in central London – it’s part of the University of London.

    The videos of all except Paul Mason are now on Ady Cousins’ YouTube channel.

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  3. Didin’t Marx and Engels say , to use the common venacualar,that capitalism sucks,and to excuse its use was crap.Or the like.Why did these communists sully that.

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  4. John Rees observes ‘ that the left has failed to rise to the scale of the challenge he pointed out that it lacks a clear voice in the debate.’

    I wonder if he reflected on his own contribution to this situation?

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  5. Anyone wishing to continue that line of discussion is free to find another forum in which to do it. The theme has been explored in depth here and elsewhere. I see no value in reopening it.

    Paul Mason’s views were a lot more controversial.

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  6. Paul Mason’s blog has a preview of two pieces he’s doing on Newsnight monday and tuesday on UK economic strategy. He also writes about China’s attempt to render Google the corporate equivalent of a non person.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/

    And today’s FT front page has leading UK hedge funds shorting stirling and a preview of the Greek attempt to re-enter the bond markets this week. Inside Max Hastings analyses Israel’s de facto policy of annexing the West Bank and forsees Israel becoming a pariah state.

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  7. So I guess he didnt then?

    I wonder why you report comments that you dont want a discussion about?

    Its not about looking for a slanging match. If a new current on the left is actually able to reflect on its own contribution to the mess we’re in that would be geniunely interesting.

    If it isnt, but has just enough of a profile for groups like your own to orientate around, that is just dissapointing.

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  8. Danny – the subject has been done to death here, on SUN and all over the left blogosphere. If you, or anyone else, has anything fresh to add please do. I’d rather avoid a trip down that particular memory lane and exactly the same arguments using exactly the same words.

    If the ex SWP people are thinking of offering their opinion on recent events they are more likely to do it on their own sites than here.

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  9. Liam, short of a radical break from their traditional practices what the SWP/ex SWP do is of marginal interest to me

    But one new angle on this for me is that I have been getting the SR paper/magazine for a few years, so I guess that makes me a supporter to some extent of your groups ideas. I’m giving you feedback that I’m not impressed with your new orientation, if thats what it is.

    If you had any activists on Merseyside I’d tell them this myself.

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  10. So that would be the same István Mészáros who claimed that the current crisis was deeper than the Great Depression would it? And the same Graham Turner who agreed with him. And the same John Rees who went along with the catastrophist crowd.
    In fact by March 2009, the bottom of the crisis, world industrial production had fallen 13%. By January 2010 it has made up 10 points of that fall and on current trends will have completely recovered by April.

    http://www.cpb.nl/eng/research/sector2/data/trademonitor.html

    Fair to say that all these economists – actually including Paul albeit he is a little more nuanced – were completely wrong.
    Profit figures out on Friday show that US profits have recovered nearly all of their fall and are only just below their peak levels of 2006.
    It is of course possible that with the withdrawal of stimulus towards the end of the year then there will be a “double dip” but its by no means certain.
    The attacks on the UK public sector are not predicated on a crisis of profitability, UK profits have already recovered nearly completely – that’s why btw the governments borrowing figures are already improving – but are a result of the opportunity that has been demonstrated by the weakness of the public sector unions through the recession.
    Why would the capitalists fund services for working class people that they do not need to?
    They won’t and hence the attack.

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  11. That is one whack job analysis. What is the point of it?

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  12. Billj – thanks for the dutch economic stats website which is excellent. Were the US profit figures you quote covered in the FT? If not, where can I find them?

    Is it not probable that a significabnt part of the recovery in profits has been generated by national exchequers racking up enormous and apparently unsustainable debt.? This has mitigated the imediate danger of depression, but risks extended instability as nation states are forced to compete to pay down their debt.. If US profits have recovered so securely, I wonder why the US stock markets are so much lower than they were on the eve of the crisis (14089 Oct 2007 against Fridays close 10850 ).

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  13. whack job US profit statistics

    http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/2010/gdp4q09_3rd.htm

    Us profits declined to 59% of their peak. They are now back to 85% of their peak. This is unprecedented at the start of a recovery. Stock market recovery is the strongest in history, rising 75% in a single year.

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  14. Corporate profits in 2009

    Profits from current production decreased 3.8 percent in 2009, compared with a decrease of 11.8
    percent in 2008. Domestic profits increased 1.4 percent, in contrast to a decrease of 17.6 percent. The
    rest-of-the-world component of profits decreased 17.3 percent, in contrast to an increase of 8.5 percent.

    Hi bill j – followed your link and found the above. I couldn’t find the figures you’re quoting – could you point me in the right direction?

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  15. What point are you trying to make bill j?

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  16. Is your middle name Alastair Darling?

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  17. Alastair Darling is two names!

    I wonder if Obama will now try to improve the US relationship with Russia as a counterbalance to China in much the same way as Nixon improved the US relationship with China as a counterbalance to the USSR?

    For me Billj has made a very valuable contribution – he’s pointed to two excellent sources of economic stats and he’s arguing a view that is contrarian on the Left – that the world (or at least US) has recovered strongly from the crisis. For those of us who think he’s wrong – or at least exagerating his case – then its down to us to provide evidence to the contrary – or at least challenge his evidence.

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  18. `For those of us who think he’s wrong – or at least exagerating his case – then its down to us to provide evidence to the contrary – or at least challenge his evidence.’

    It is hardly worth engaging with someone who thinks such nonsense. The only other person claiming all’s well is Gordon Brown. Capitalism isnt as stable as Billj is describing even during its good times. There is no basis for his theory. It isn’t marxism so what is it and what’s the point of it? Is there anybody else running around saying don’t worry capitalism is stable all this class struggle nonsense is simply subjective? They are making up the crisis to whip up a civil war? There is nothing materialist in this weird analysis just a bit of prejudiced empiricism and marxists are not contrarians we leave that to wanna be celebrities and shock jocks.

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  19. Obviously for catastrophists like David Ellis then the facts are largely immaterial. Capitalism is in a Great Depression just because he thinks so. He’s not the only Marxist to adopt this method. The good thing about it is that it renders all research redundant, there’s no need to actually establish the figures, we simply need to ask David Ellis. In fact we don’t even need to ask David Ellis because we already know the answer. Capitalism is in a Great Depression, end of story.

    If you think for a moment it is pretty remarkable that in the year of the “Great Depression” in the USA, domestic profits actually increased. Profits began to rise from the second quarter on, accelerating particularly fast during the second part of the year;

    ” Profits from current production (corporate profits with inventory valuation and capital consumption adjustments) increased $108.7 billion in the fourth quarter, compared with an increase of $132.4 billion in the third quarter. Current-production cash flow (net cash flow with inventory valuation
    adjustment) — the internal funds available to corporations for investment — increased $69.1 billion in the fourth quarter, compared with an increase of $28.4 billion in the third.”

    If you search around the BEA website they have all of the national account information you could want here;

    http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Selected=N

    look at table 1.12.for corporate profits for the distribution of those profits between sectors look at table 6.16.
    We also know that due to the growth of China in particular that by next month then the world will have recovered pretty all of the loss of output experienced during the crisis, albeit with a shift towards the so called “emerging markets”. How different this is from the tale told by the catastrophists above, who predicted the collapse of China with the fall of US consumption, asserted that there was a crisis of profitability when there wasn’t, and made out that the world was stagnant pretty well all the time.
    Total cobblers of course, but absolutely in tune with the musings of David Ellis.

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  20. `Obviously for catastrophists like David Ellis then the facts are largely immaterial. Capitalism is in a Great Depression just because he thinks so. ‘

    Utter rot. My analysis is based on Marxism which goes a lot deeper than your empiricist nonsense. The facts are not unimportant, far from it, but they are no more or less important than the method used to interpret said facts.

    `He’s not the only Marxist to adopt this method.’

    I should hope not otherwise it would be hard to describe them as marxists.

    I think you are getting your prices and your profits in a knot.

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  21. Here is a very interesting article from Saturday’s Independent regarding inflation and Kondratiev Cycles. The guy is no Marxist but he seems to understand bourgeois tactics. Unfortunately the paper version was accompanied with an exceptionally interesting graph which this on-line version is not. It shows how at the top of each Kondratiev cycle the link between prices and profits has been utterly severed to disasterous inflationary effects.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/hamish-mcrae/hamish-mcrae-governments-will-use-inflation-to-cheat-their-way-out-of-debt-1929157.html

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  22. Actually Billj your analysis precisely fits your sectarian nature. The one and only person on the planet who thinks there is nothing going on but the rent.

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  23. The foundation of materialism is empiricism – experience is the highest criteria of human wisdom. In other words there is such thing as a world and there are such things as facts.
    Or alternatively we can just make it all up off the top of our head like David Ellis. It has the immense advantage of not requiring any work.
    It is a fact that world industrial production has nearly completely recovered the entirety of its decline.
    It is a fact that profits have nearly recovered the entirety of their decline.
    Those facts mean that the Great Depression thesis is refuted. Call that an interpretation of the facts if you like.
    It is no wonder that the bourgeoisie are looking at the super cycles, Kondratiev waves or long waves. They after all exist. That’s a fact too.

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  24. The Kondratiev waves certainly exist but not in the metaphysical way you think. Each wave is deeper, more profound, more all encompassing than the last especially since youthful capitalist vigour was long ago replaced by sclerotic imperialist decay.

    Marxism reasonably interprets the empirical facts but it is not empiricism so unless you want to go all the way back to the stone age I suggest you bulk your empiricism up with a bit of Marxism.

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  25. Suggest all you like. But facts are stubborn things. Not that you’re particularly interested in them.
    Last year following Lehman’s collapse and the freezing of the credit markets we were told – the left were unanimous – that this was either the Great Depression or 10 years of stagnation. In February this year Alex Callinicos said that talk of recovery was “silly” and that it took 10 years for capitalism to get over the Great Depression. That’s true it did.
    So when we find that capitalism has got over this “Great Depression” not in 10 years but in 12 months any reasonable person would conclude that this was not the Great Depression. That talk of a recovery is not silly and that the catastrophists were all wrong.
    Funnily enough they don’t agree, so you get the likes of the Maoist Mészáros, the ex-Cliffite Rees, the left Keynesian Graham Turner – the out and out catastrophist never mind the facts I know better David Ellis, who ignore the truth and construct their own version of the reality off the top of their heads.
    Its more amusing, takes less time and avoids the charge that you have any contact with empirical reality.
    But is that a good thing?

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  26. Thanks billj – i’ve bookmarked the stats sites you point out. Do you know of one for the UK as comprehensive as the Us dept of commerce?

    Your view that we are witnessing a spectacular recovery of the global economy is boosted by the survey conducted by KPMG reported in todays FT. Over 11,000 large international companies are polled. For every one expecting a fall in their economic activity (turnover, capital investment, employment) 3 are expecting a rise. This is significantly more positive than 12 months ago.

    However, it does seem to me that this recovery has been generated at least in part by a spectacular rise in government deficits around the world. The UK is not alone in facing serious public spending cuts. With this level of public debt (not to mention the level of private debt still outstanding) it would not take much ecomic or political turmoil to prompt a stampede away from risk and renewed struggle for capital from weaker companies and nation states. Nothing as yet has been resolved on how to regulate international finance to avoid a repeat of the 2008 debacle. There are major trade and moneatary strains between the US, China and the EU. And all this against a backdrop of climate change and peak oil. A recovery of profits maybe: but an uncertain future for private property imho.

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  27. Facts are indeed stubborn things but they cannot be interpreted without theory. If everything was as it appeared there would be no need for science. On the basis of a few `facts’ you have declared the crisis over and the class struggle a conspiracy. My analysis takes its point of departure from the marxist understanding of capitalist crisis and over-production and locates this particular crisis as both a fractal echo of an even wider cyclical effect and at the same time a huge and irreversible confirmation of the more general decay of capitalism into imperialism and now a fully realised, sclerotic imperialism. Neither budget cuts nor stimulation can resolve this crisis as both these opposites have the identical effect of exaggerating the over-production that gave rise to it.

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  28. Yah di yah.

    You’re right Will there has been a large increase in government deficits, not that large on historical levels but above what they were in the 1990s. The bourgeoisie have determined to make the public sector pay for the crisis, even though profitability in the UK is higher than at any point since 1960 and above even the level that they went into the crisis.
    For the UK figures, which are crap it should be said compared to the US ones, which were set up by the Menshevik exile Simon Kuznets, you need to search on the ONS website for the national accounts.
    There’s a more comprehensive dataset on the bank of england site, but its pretty inaccessible.

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  29. The far left has often gotten the direction right but the distance wrong. There were some useful observation in this old article on the SP’s economic perspectives in the 1990s, which are just as true today: http://members.multimania.co.uk/socialist_dem/soc.htm

    Bill’s analysis is very interesting and for a few years I’ve been tempted to write something serious about it. Suffice to say, he has bent the stick against the catastrophists a little too far, and relies on historical data too much, to see the plural possibilities in the future.

    There’s a useful summary here: http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/3421 which gives some date that give more nuance than Bill can fit in to the comments box.

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  30. Crisis? What crisis, eh Duncan?

    What do you mean by catastrophist by the way unless the moral, economic and social collapse of a system based on slavery is some how catastrophic?

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  31. Actually I don’t think that’s true Duncan. The catastrophists were wrong its really as simple as that. They claimed it was the Great Depression and its not. As for the historical data, I’d say I rely on it less than anyone else – the more up to date the data the better.
    While there is a recovery of world industrial and production which has raised it to levels only just off the peak of the last boom a mere 12 months after the bottom of the recession, this has been combined with a further shift of the world economy away from the G7 towards the so called emerging markets and particularly China.

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  32. BTW the graphs from Eichengreen aren’t more nuanced. The one for the most uptodate data uses the same CPB trade monitor that I sourced. Their historic graph is seriously misleading as it excludes China, as that was scarcely a capitalist country in 1929, but is now the second largest industrial manufacturer, but the fastest growing one by a distance.

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  33. What do you mean by the catastrophists billj? Who are they and what do they say. I haven’t, for instance, proclaimed a Great Depression I have merely claimed that capitalism is entering, indeed is at the gateway of, its greatest and, it is reasonable to assume, terminal crisis. The most likely product is a socialist transformation not a so-called Great Depression. I have stated that there can be no solution to the crisis on the basis of capitalism. You on the other hand cannot wait to tell us that all is well. Capitalism is recovering, there is no crisis. Even the bourgeoisie themselves are more acutely aware of the direness of their situation than you with three of their most prominent political spokesmen openly proclaiming on national TV that Thatcher’s cuts will need to be dwarfed.

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  34. David, I don’t understand why you think that, because I share the view that the SP was mistaken in predicting a Great Recession and the failure of the Euro a dozen years ago, that I don’t think there’s a crisis.

    Bill, I do think that the catastrophists are wrong but I think it’s too simple to say that recovery is largely completed. Looking at Britian, which certainly is not a microcosm of the world economy but it’s home,it’s probable that the extent and execution of quantitative easing is not enough. The country’s largest export market, Europe, is stalling. There is no growth in consumption, excluding the car scrappage scheme.Investment spending has fallen hard, and continues to fall, in the fourth quarter by 6%, mainly because of low demand. Stock levels remain high.

    The money supply is tightening in the UK and other western economies as lending is clawed back (It’s especially hard in Ireland). I think that Basel Three will maintain that, and increase the cost of debt. I am expecting Britain to go back into recession at the end of this year. I think that 2012 is the earliest we can see growth up around much above 3%.

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  35. Like I said Duncan what’s interesting about this crisis is that it has accelerated the re-proportioning of the world economy towards the so called emerging markets in general and China in particular.
    The fact that world industrial production has nearly recovered to its previous peak proves this. But that does not mean that the effects of the crisis have disappeared in the UK, USA, Europe overnight. Precisely because this is a crisis within which the emerging markets have motored on, while the older major imperialisms have stalled the effects of it remain.
    I think its unlikely that the UK will go into recession again, although of course possible. Against the impact of the debt overhang, withdrawal of govt stimulus etc. is the fact that in general following recessions there is usually a period of growth, what’s more its likely that the world economy will have pushed on enabling financial profits and trade to recover further.
    (David Ellis – I’ve stopped reading your posts and therefore cannot respond to them)

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  36. As I understand it, capitalist optimism for the world economy (where it exists) is based on coninuing growth in output in the Brics, but with this output depending less on exports to the US and Europe and more upon internally generated demand. The other area of optimism is around green technologies – for example Ireland’s ambitious plan for renewables cited in todays FT.

    The pessimists worry that continued growth in the Brics will be thwarted by inflation (China and India), financial speculation (viz the recent story about Chinese banks using land as collateral), or political turmoil – questions for example about Chinese political stability.

    And there are still plenty of questions about the stability of financial institutions in the heartland, for example the story abouty the concealed weakness of German banking in todays International Herald Tribune.

    Can the Brics grow enough to save the day.? And can they do so without oil going through $200 a barrel -propelled by an ocean of leveraged hot money punted by hedge funds?

    *Bric – Brazil, Russia, India, China

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  37. Speculation about the BRICs is key. Generally on the left it has been to dismiss them as ramshackle and prone to collapse. The entire left thought, predicted, asserted and said that the moment China’s exports fell then its entire economy would collapse and that China’s banks were weaker than the West’s.
    In fact as we now know China’s banks were much stronger than the Wests having been recapitalised to the tune of $500bn over the previous decade and their reflationary package was strong enough to offset the fall in exports, which were not as important to the Chinese economy as the catastrophists had asserted.
    Is this enough to drag the world as a whole out of recession? Certainly it was enough to drag it out of depression and is the reason for the strength of the recovery so far, which was generally underestimated by the bourgeois forecasters. (The Marxist forecasters were so off the scale wrong one can only laugh.)

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  38. Bill J

    The entire left thought, predicted, asserted and said that the moment China’s exports fell then its entire economy would collapse and that China’s banks were weaker than the West’s.

    I dn’t think that is really true, there is a significant constituency on the left who have been pointing to China’s success, and using it as an example of how greater state ownership and drection of the economy were and are a good thing.

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  39. You’re right of course, the Maoists never thought anything else.

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  40. Can we talk about ‘Globalisation, the highest stage of capitalism’? Since Marx produced his analysis of the capitalist mode of production, there has been a temptation for Marxists to believe that the system is on the verge of collapse. Marx himself believed occasionally that world revolution was imminent. And it took two world wars (and one world cup) to show that Lenin was premature in declaring ‘Imperealism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism’.
    And now David Ellis is suggesting the present crisis may be the big one. It seems to me that Comrade Ellis can point at several factors suggesting capitalism may have finally exhausted its potential. Capitalist economic relations have finally incorporated the whole of humanity and the whole of the globe. The crisis in the 1930’s was only purged through world war. Given the stockpile of the means of destruction, world war is no longer viable. The profound nature of the current crisis is witnessed by the startling volte face of the bourgeois authorities – one moment proclaiming neo-liberal free market principles, the next nationalising the commanding heights of finance. And the continual growth in the production of use values, a primary characteristic of capitalism since 1650, appears to be permanently blocked by the exhaustion of raw materials and a fragile eco system.
    Capitalism is a giant ramshackle tower, forever climbing skyward, apparently precarious, sometimes wobbling alarmingly. There is reason to hope that now it will finally fall. But as BillJ correctly insists, we must look at its current performance to judge its health. Its not enough to seize upon a model of capitalism that we have ourselves created and offer it as evidence of capitals imminent collapse.

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  41. From the Billj article on PR:-

    “If world capitalism was genuinely in a period of stagnation then low profits would have meant that the capitalist state could not have bailed out the banks”

    Really?

    I find it very odd that Bill J has completely failed to analyse the whole “Quantitative Easing” process.
    I don’t think it’s justifiable to make long term prognostications based on any figures garnered since QE was put in place.

    Other than the case of China, QE has been financed, not out of industrial profits, but by state banks printing virtual money. This is what has sustained the weak upturn in production that’s been evident since the Credit Crunch.

    It’s a very debatable question whether China can be put in the scales as evidence that Imperialism is no longer the Highest Stage of Capitalism.

    But even in terms of the workings of the traditional capitalist market in the West, there are quite strong indicators that the “recovery” will be short lived.
    It’s probable that a more long term recession will occur as this virtual money is inevitably inflated away.

    i.e. The first dip may be simply be a precursor to something more prolonged and serious.

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  42. Well you would say that wouldn’t you? If I remember correctly last year you were baiting me that by March then the world *really* would be in a Great Depression.
    The problem is *your sect* to use your choice expression, claimed that there was still a Great Depression as late as September last year.
    And what’s QE got to do with it? Profits in the NIPA do not include windfall profits or one offs. I daresay if they were included then the recovery would be even stronger.
    There may well be a double dip or a host of other scenarios but there isn’t a Great Depression. Tough.
    As for the industrial production and trade figures they are of course global and not limited to the UK.

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  43. Funnily enough, I listened to this interview with Alan Woods on Pakistani TV just after posting the above comment.

    http://www.marxist.com/alan-woods-interviewed-on-pakistani-tv-2010.htm

    He argues that while the recession hit the banks first, it’s is now hitting whole nations; Iceland, Greece. Spain and Britain next?

    Now there’s catastrophism for you…..

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  44. re BillJ “…you were baiting me that by March then the Great Depression”

    Moi?

    (a) I don’t think that’s what I said
    (b) I’m not a member of any sect(s), I’m freelancing.
    (c) Clearly fiscal stimulus packages have led to an upturn in industrial production, but I don’t attach as much significance to the current figures as you do.

    Here’s a collation of points that I’ve made in debates with you since the credit crunch began:-

    (1) “in the period leading to the 1929 Wall St Crash, General Motors made a profit of $248 million on sales of 1.9 million cars and Ford wasn’t far behind.
    US Steel industry was also making record-breaking profits. Even after the crash, company dividends continued to rise until late 1930.
    Herbert Hoover actually used the words “The economic fundamentals are sound”.” (Jan 08)

    (2) “The drain of public finances to support bankers must be stopped at all costs because very soon it will lead to a massive crisis in public expenditure.
    That will affect jobs, pensions, housing benefit and all other areas of state expenditure and lead to a massive real reduction in living standards.” (Sept 08)

    (3) There are clearly strict limits to the efficacy of Keynesian policies.
    In fact, I find it hard to believe that capitalism will be able to expand again without a massive assault on working class living standards.
    I don’t believe that the Credit Crunch was just another short lived cyclical blip.
    It’s fundamentally changing the economic balance of forces to the detriment of the USA.(Autumn 2009)

    (4) The ability of the US government to spend its way out of the recession depends on the continued inflow of Chinese, Asian and Gulf money into the dollar.
    Of course these have an interest in stability, not just because they want to prop up the value of their dollar holdings, but because they need to US market for their exports.
    But there’s no evidence that the conditions for a sustained boom period have been created.
    I think the opposite is true.
    Any recovery will be a weak one, based on the massive transfusion of money from the fiscal stimulus package.” (Autumn 2009)

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  45. Well indeed you don’t attach any significance to the current figures. Need I say more.
    Freelancing obviously doesn’t suit.

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  46. It seems to me that prianikoff is right that the implications of quantative easing need to be examined. The return to profitability is dependent on quantative easing to some degree – both directly in restoring banks to profit and indirectly by allowing banks to ease the pressure on other sectors and cutting interest rates. QE has contributed to a very sharp increase in sovereign debt globally. This is surely now having repercussions.

    Two other points: the dramatic collapse in demand for major goods such as cars and houses during the crash must be of serious concern to the ruling classes.

    On the eve of the crash, profitability was high and the mood very confident, with a very few now famous exceptions. Good as current data may be, it has proved misleading quite recently.

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  47. I’ve addressed the issue of sovereign debt in my article. Essentially it is back to 1991 levels. High but not that high.
    What Priankoff is saying is that you cannot use “bourgeois” statistics when they show there is a recovery. You can only use “bourgeois” statistics when there is a slump.
    There were high rates of profit before the crash albeit ones that had declined from their peaks. These figures are subject to revision, not because of QE but because they are anyway. Statisticians tend to underestimate the slump and underestimate the recovery as their models are built on a continuation of previous behaviour/patterns. In all probability therefore, they may well be subject to revision – upwards.

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  48. BTW if Alan Woods has only now noticed that the recession is hitting Iceland, Greece and Spain, he needs to watch the news more.

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  49. At first glance a statement like “If world capitalism was genuinely in a period of stagnation then low profits would have meant that the capitalist state could not have bailed out the banks” seems rather odd. The bail-out doesn’t come from profits, it comes from government: through debt, cuts and taxes. It exists only because the banks need boosting.

    The causal link between QE and increased industrial production seems rather moot. It’s helped banks with their liquidity, and prevented a rapid increase in risk in the markets, but little of that money os flowing into consumption, other than through the car scrappage schemes.

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  50. Its not odd. How do they pay for the debt? From profits. Debt is only a claim on future profits – or taxes in the case of the state – which are in turn paid for from profits.
    its necessary to contrast the behaviour of the capitalists in this crisis with other previous crises. During the 1980-83 recession in order to destroy redundant capital and increase profitability they actually raised interest rates and slashed government spending during the crisis. In 1929 rather than save the banks they let the crisis rip for the same reason. On this occasion, as say in 1908 they stepped in to save the banks to limit the scale of the crisis, why because they had both the means – the profits – and the incentive – the profits – to do so.

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  51. BillJ “What Priankoff is saying is that you cannot use “bourgeois” statistics when they show there is a recovery”

    With all due respect you are talking bollocks.
    When it comes to bourgeois statistics I’m generally something of a positivist. i.e. I don’t go around saying they are a social construct and misleading.
    I accept that there’s been a revival in production, just not the extrapolation you make that this means the recession is over. ( Actually, I’m not sure you’ve accepted it ever started)

    Even in terms of pure statistical analysis you don’t have enough data to make such a statement.
    Basically your whole analysis hinges on the thesis that the rate of profit hasn’t declined historically.

    You think that there’s been an irreversible capitalist counter-revolution in E.Europe and China and that there are now multiple imperialisms driving a new epoch of capitalist expansion.

    This is a very one-sided analysis of the situation.
    It underestimates the fact that a sudden change in political leadership in these states could lead to a rapid expansion of state ownership and curtailment of the freedom of action of the capitalist class.
    i.e. they remain hybrid economies, which issued from revolutionary struggles against capitalism and imperialism.

    Such a political change could be triggered by a military threat from the USA as it tries to reassert its power on the back of its attempts to struggle out of recession.
    This is a very different situation to that prevailing in the USA and Western Europe.

    I’d submit that the economic and political situation is a lot more volatile than your analysis suggests.

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  52. With due respect I’m just quoting what you said.
    You were wrong. You are wrong. You will be wrong.
    Shame huh?

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  53. Bill J – on sovereign debt:

    In your article

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=3011

    you cite a UBS paper that sugests european debt is only back to 1991 levels. Your comments on the manageability of UK debt cite Darling’s recent budget report. I ‘d suggest the comment of a pre election chancellor are less detached than UBS. Your article doesn’t comment on USA sovereign debt nor that of, for example, BRICs or Japan.

    I’m not sure that you can say necessarily that

    ‘debt is only a claim on future profits’

    For example, if the British government were to cut expenditure by, for example, closing all old peoples’ homes, and then uses the saved spending to pay off debt, then surely that would be at the expense of the (largely working class) old people rather than of profits?

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  54. Yes its interesting to compare US sovereign debt with the UK. From the reports I’ve read none of the bosses there are in the least bit concerned. In fact the bail out of the financial sector will likely break even. Obviously Darling’s remarks regarding deeper cuts than thatcher was both a threat and a promise, and probably a degree of scaremongering, allowing some wriggle room to the upside. In the old days when the workers movement would have reacted to such a threat, they tried to downplay the cuts to diminish opposition, now that they are not concerned about that, they exaggerate them to get the bad news out of the way.
    On your final remark it doesn’t disagree with the point I was making. By saving money on essential services for the working class the bosses increase their profits, indisputably.

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  55. Bill j –

    do I understand you right in saying that all state spending is essentially paid out of profits? So, for example, when people consider taxes such as PAYE are taxes on their wages, in reality those taxes are paid from profits as are taxes that appear to be paid on items of consumption such as VAT or taxes on housing like Council Tax.

    Presumably these are not the same profits as compiled in the excellent US statistics that you quoted earlier.

    I think that your explanation of the differences in the approaches of capitalists during the different recessions is very interesting.

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  56. “The Greek debt crisis deepened today, despite reassurances from European Union officials that the country was not on the brink of default.

    Financial markets ignored European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet’s comments that “a default is not an issue for Greece,” and continued their bond sell-off for a third day.

    The yield on Greek bonds – which the country needs to pay to fund its schools, hospitals and other public spending – rose to 7.35%, almost twice as much as Britain’s. This puts more pressure on Greece, making its financing practically unsustainable. Investors want more details about a potential bailout package, something that the EU has so far failed to provide, dragging the crisis into its fourth month.”

    full:-
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/08/investors-sell-greek-bonds

    Meanwhile in Kyrgyzstan:-

    US reaps bitter harvest from ‘Tulip’ revolution
    By M K Bhadrakumar BEIJING –

    “This is not how color revolutions are supposed to turn out. In the Ukraine, the “Orange” revolution of 2004 has had a slow painful death.
    In Georgia, the “Rose” revolution of 2003 seems to be in the throes of what increasingly appears to be a terminal illness.
    Now in Kyrgyzstan, the “Tulip” revolution of 2005 is taking another most unforeseen turn. It is mutating and in the process something terrible is happening to its DNA.
    A color revolution against a regime backed by the United States was not considered possible until this week. Indeed, how could such a thing happen, when it was the US that invented color revolutions to effect regime change in countries outside its sphere of influence? ”

    full:-
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/LD10Ag01.html

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  57. I think you’ve rather proved the point Priankoff. According to you this was a global Great Depression. No offence to Greece and Kyrgyzstan but that doesn’t really cut it now does it? If you want any further confirmation try out JP Morgan, Global Manufacturing to keep Booming;

    Click to access OpenPubServlet

    “The recovery in global manufacturing is setting records, with output rising at a 10% annual rate in 3Q09 and 4Q09, followed by an estimated 8% gain in 1Q10. The manufacturing boom is far from over.”

    BTW were you the bloke on the Gaza demo in 2008 who bet me £100 that the stock market was going to crash in the next 12 months? If so I want may money, its up by 80%.

    @ Will Brown obviously they’re not the same profits – that was the USA! More seriously if you read the pre-budget report part of the reason for the sky high budget deficit is low growth just 1% this year and slow profits. In fact growth will almost certainly be higher – see the OECD report today which shows the UK outstripping most other advanced nations – and profits are back to or exceeding their peaks.
    If the authorities wanted to avoid savage public sector cuts they could, they’ve got the nationalised banks profits to come as well, but they don’t. They’re not in the game for charity and the working class have shown that they’re not in the game at all.

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  58. was there, but it wasn’t me.
    Whoever he was should be claiming off you though.

    In the year between 2008 and 2009 the Dow Jones Industrial index fell by 33%
    (From 12000 to around 8,000 points)
    Since the bank bail out it’s only recovered to 10,000

    In April 2008, the FTSE 100 adjusted closing index was 6087.3 points
    A year later it had fallen to 4243.7 points
    Now it’s around 5771 points

    BTW, Morgan Stanley are also predicting that Britain will face a crisis over its Sovereign Debt next year.
    While the The Bank for International Settlements says that Sovereign debt is a dangerous problem for the United States, Japan, Britain, and most of Western Europe.
    This main contradiction of the Fiscal Stimulus packages is the budget deficits required to finance them. Runs on governnment bonds could destabilise several large states.
    The problems in the smaller peripheral countries are just outliers of a bigger problem at the heart of the global economy.

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  59. I’m not convinced. I spoke to this guy after the Lehman’s crash. I’d be interested if you could point me to the source for Morgan Stanley. There is an issue as to what happens after the stimulus packages – worth about 2% of world GDP a year – run out. We’ll have to see.
    Either way though you’re wrong. You said it’d be the Great Depression by March. Its April.

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  60. I hadn’t noticed your point about the FTSE. I must admit now you mention it, a fall of 300 points over two years is alarming. Its a bit like Alex Callinicos claiming that an increase of China’s exports of 85% year on year said nothing about the growth of the economy. And on reflection he’s obviously right.

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  61. Bill J: I’m still not clear whether you are saying that all state spending should be counted as coming from profits – or not.

    On the current state of the recovery of the world economy it seems as though India and China are growing strongly and that the Australian government has had to raise interest rates as demand for coal and iron ore stokes the economy. Geithner and Sumners sound increasingly confident about the US economy. The oil price has broken through $80 as demand picks up.

    But there are serious budget problems in Hungary, Latvia, Greece, Iceland – and the Euro zone is clearly under pressure.

    It seems to me that one of the unresolved issues from the crash is that the apparent health of the economy as measured by reported figures and judged by the rating agencies proved to be nonsense. Its is not clear to me that such obscavation has given way to transparency..

    In addition, the crash demonstrated that our transnational, computerised, unregulated economy can seizeup spectacularly. We still have dark pools, hedge funds and credit derivatives. A large proportion of stock trades are driven by software algorithms arbitraging micro price discrepancies. Its not clear
    that we can be confident of a golden age of capitalist growth.

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  62. B.J: “I’d be interested if you could point me to the source for Morgan Stanley.”

    It was in a report issued by their European investment team, issued in late November, called “Tougher Times in 2010”

    B.J: “Either way though you’re wrong. You said it’d be the Great Depression by March. Its April”

    I never made any such prediction. Check the archives to this blog.

    Last October I had a debate with you in the thread
    “The British working class and the recession: from resignation to resistance? ”

    On October 12th, I said I’d get back to you in 6 months.
    Follow the thread. I still stand by what I said in it.

    http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/the-british-working-class-and-the-recession-from-resignation-to-resistance/

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  63. So you posted in October that you would get back to me about the Great Depression in six months. Its April. That is six months. And its not the Great Depression. If your total contribution consists of contributions to blogs of various lengths excuse me for not taking it at all seriously.
    As for Morgan Stanley last november was six months ago. Things have moved on since then. You will of course have noted that the EU have bailed out Greece today.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aE3sf8VtpYYU&pos=1

    On should all state spending be considered as coming from profits. Well its a moot point. In one sense yes given that wages are paid by capitalists and come out of profits. But the fact is that the bulk of taxation falls on capitalists. The ability of capitalists to meet the debt burden was determined – according to the UK government’s pre-budget report – on the level of financial profitability in particular. So the key variable is profitability, while recognising of course that workers do pay taxes.
    As you point out – and as I say in my article – while world industrial production has recovered nearly to its peak of March 2008, incidentally the fastest recovery since WWII – that is a very uneven recovery with a booming Asia, Latin America and Africa, a relatively strong recovery in the USA and relative stagnation in the EU.
    Ratings agencies are a bit of a joke. The UK government does not have to borrow on the open markets anyway, it can print money if it wants, so the credit worthiness of the UK is totally irrelevant.

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  64. re BJ.

    If you dismiss what someone says just because it’s written on a blog, I’d suggest you give up blogging.
    I think the problem is that the people you’d really like to have a big set-piece debate with; Callinicos, Taffe, Brenner, Rees etc.. won’t talk to you.
    So you pretend that my views are synonymous with theirs.

    As your comments on the stock exchange indicated, you have a problem with quantifying timescales.
    The Morgan Stanley Report I mentioned was issued just over *4 months* ago.
    It covered the year 2010, as indicated by its title .
    Therefore the peformance of the British economy between now and December 31st 2010 is the yardstick.
    What it said about Sterling has proven to be quite accurate so far and there’s still nearly 8 months of 2010 to go.

    I would have been surprised if Greece hadn’t been bailed out, as it’s in the overall interests of the capitalist class.
    The question is on what terms and with what effects?
    The more bail-outs that are conducted, of banks and now states, the more the crisis of public debt will be exacerbated.

    What we are seeing is a weak recovery, not financed out of profits, but IOU’s on future profits.
    There are absolutely no guarantees that these will materialise, or cover the public debts building up.
    To revival of US production is being driven by favourable currency rates and the fact that China is now importing more.|
    But US housing prices are very soft and there’s a big problem of negative equity building up there which will undermined the recovery.
    The weak recovery in Europe will soon give way to a prolonged period of stagnation, structural unemployment, cuts in public spending and real living standards.

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  65. Far from true actually, I’ve debated with all those people as it happens, but be that as it may. Of course blogging has its place, mainly filling up quiet moments in between doing more important things, but lets not give it a status it does not deserve.
    You make a few claims there. They have no empirical foundation. Need I say more?

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  66. ‘To revival of US production is being driven by favourable currency rates and the fact that China is now importing more.’

    Prianikoff: while it does seem to be the case that China is importing more and exporting less, this is by no means the only source of the US recovery. The US still has an enormous internal market and trades a relatively smaller proportion of its GDP than Britain. It does appear as though US profits have staged a significant recovery – unless there is a major flaw in the figures quoted by billJ:

    http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/2010/gdp4q09_3rd.htm

    I think that you are correct to point out that these profits are underpinned by substantial state borrowing and that this might have significant political and economic consequences. Certainly the Tea Party movement makes a lot of the rise in US sovereign debt. And there has been speculation by Russian academics that the USA might be heading for civil war as states with surpluses withold federal taxes to prevent Washington bailing out indebted states. Such speculations would echo the idea that fiscal tensions will break up the euro zone.

    But many have predicted the collapse of the US economy before and been disapointed. It is interesting that, while it was the anglo world first into the crisis it may be also the first to recover.

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  67. check out car sales here

    Click to access OpenPubServlet

    Global auto sales hit a new all-time high in March, based on our global proxy derived from 20 countries plus the Euro area.

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  68. Just to put things in persepective a bit. Based on the latest available statistics;

    * Global industrial production is still 6% below its peak before the Credit Crunch

    * World trade remains 8% below its previous peak

    * World equity markets are now 25% below their peak

    Motor vehicle sales have risen, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that world production has.

    There was a lot of uncleared inventory in 2009 and most of the manufacturers were laying off workers and putting plants on reduced working weeks.

    Scrappage schemes were government subsidies to clear these inventories, which could not be shifted profitably under the normal workings of the market.
    Most of these schemes are now being withdrawn.

    While UK-based car production by the multi-nationals
    has increased a lot since July ’09, this has mainly been a result in the low sterling rate.

    But maintaining a weaker pound and dollar also makes it harder to attract the international funds required to sustain the huge levels of public debt.

    As the UK government scappage scheme is withdrawn, it’s expected that these increases will flatten out .

    The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), has said that total sales of new cars for 2010 are likely to be about 10% down at 1.82 million.”

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  69. One of the apparent consequences of the crisis has been the acceleration by the big car companies of ‘greener’ technology. Many have now launched hybrid or wholly electric models. Once these technologies have been proved, tightening legislation will progressively force conventional petrol cars off the road. This will create a big new market for the car companies. Not to mention inexorably rising oil prices. A combination of over-capacity, improved durability and market saturation appeared to threaten the car companies 3 years ago. Now they are looking at big new markets in the BRICs and the replacement of existing petrol fleets in Western Europe and North Amerika. For me, its an interesting test of capitalism’s ability to adapt to climate change and peak oil.

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  70. Global industrial production was 6% below its peak in January – the last month for statistics. It will have risen significantly from there by now and the trend is strongly upward. Same goes for trade and equity markets. The thing is not only to look at the absolute level – which is much increased from the bottom in march 2009, but also to consider the trend, up or down and how fast. It is up very fast.
    Leading indicators for the OECD, which is lagging in this recovery are at their highest level since 1975.
    UK may see a slowing of consumption with the rise in VAT etc. but it could just as well see a slowing of saving, which has risen from nothing to nearly 9% in a year. Exports rose at their strongest rate in three years in March and construction similarly expanded for the first time in years, add in the inventory adjustment and you have the recipe for growth at least for this year.
    As you say oil prices are an issue, but car sales have exceeded their previous peak this March, as demand from the BRICs has soared.
    Of course this very strong recovery may not continue but that does not mean it is not happening now.

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  71. ‘Of course this very strong recovery may not continue but that does not mean it is not happening now.’

    BillJ: I’m interested that you are not able to say whether the current recovery will continue or not. That’s certainly how I feel. What are the main sources of your uncertainty? I’m not sure what the planning horizons for transnational companies are – how far ahead they hedge for example. I would be interested to know if they have started to embark on big new capital projects yet. I see that the Chinese have just invested heavily in athabasca:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8616919.stm

    but in a sense this is evidence of problems ahead (peak oil) rather than confidence in the future.

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  72. Well it all depends what you mean by continue. I think it will continue at least for this year. I always thought it would, as all post war recessions have been followed in the next 12 months by strong growth. This one is no exception. Whether it continues beyond that really depends on how quickly investment starts growing and unemployment starts falling.
    Given that both those things do seem to be occurring it seems likely it will continue after that as well. Capital investment has been rising, although from a low base.
    Peak oil is a moveable feast. It only refers to the economically viable oil that can be extracted. As the price of oil rises so it changes.

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  73. Wow, though I’m not sure I agree with his conclusions, I have to admit that for the first time that I have come across bill j really seems like the one making the most reasoned argument. That said I think that the crisis probably is more substantial then he argues.

    On the issue of the political impact of the crisis, I think it is fair to say that a certain amount of over hype about the consequences of the ressestion, have lead many to make political mistakes about how we build a united radical left political project – that is, the assumption that the crisis would be so bad it would automatically shatter everyones illusions in capitalist free market ideology did not quite bare out.

    While the idea of neo-liberal, capitalism untamed, has lost credibility – the political class have managed to turn things around – with their claim that we must sacrifice state spending for the good of the market. The majority of people have not been hit hard enough to automatically up faith in the markets generating material solutions to this crisis.

    Anyway, my rambling point is supposed to be: perhaps underestimated the need to continue to argue for an alternative economic system rather then just hold up slogans about the collapses of capitalism.

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  74. I’m not sure you’re right about Peak Oil BillJ. My understanding of Hubbert’s theory is that the year of peak oil production can be predicted from the pattern of oil discovery. Oil discovery follows a normal distribution (I think) and so does oil production but with a fixed lag from the discovery curve. The implication of Hubberts theory is that the dynamics of capitalist economic relations (and geological variables) are contained within the curves.

    If humanity was organised on a profoundly different politico-economic system – for example a society that followed a religion of only producing oil on years with the number 7 in it, Hubbert’s theory would not hold.

    Under capitalism, essentially, as the oil gets more expensive to extract the price rises, users consider switching to alternative fuels and implement energy efficency. These multiple factors (not to mention speculation) affect the spot price of oil (add some noise)……… but the curves for discovery and production both for individual oil fields, for individual countries and for the world powerfully support Hubbert’s arguement – at least from the couple of books I’ve read and films I’ve seen about it. Especially the Film ‘A Crude Awakening’ and the book ‘Beyond Oil’ by Kenneth S. Deffeyes. It seems to me that Peak Oil is as much a theory about capitalism as it is about oil.

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  75. It certainly is a theory about capitalism. That was my point. There are vast reserves of oil, which with low oil prices are considered uneconomic to extract, as prices rise they become economic, so “peak oil” is something of a moveable feast. Although obviously there is a finite amount of oil and it will eventually be exhausted. According to reports I’ve seen if expected Chinese demand increases, then that could be as soon as 2015. it obviously does have an important part to play in the business cycle and recessions. 10 of the last 11 recessions have been preceded by an oil hike.

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  76. As I understand it, Hubbert was able to predict that US oil production would peak in 1974 – he ws able to make this prediction in the late 50’s. The US was the oldest oil teritory. New oil finds had peaked by the mid 50’s, the shape of the curve of finds was clear, or production was clear and the lag of the production curve behind the finds curve. From that he was able to predict peak output. And he proved correct as I understand it. The same methodology has subsequently been used on many different oil fields, national juristictions and on the whole world.

    BTW, I’m just re-reading James Glick’s book on Chaos (as in the mathematical theory) which is very thought provoking on the nature of intellectual revolutions and the processes of non-linear change.

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  77. I’m sure you’re right, its only the thing to bear in mind is that its not only a geological question but an economic one as well, in other words it involves price too.

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  78. Here’s an interesting discussion on oil etc from Deutsche Bank

    Click to access sieminski.pdf

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