The largest May Day related workers’ event in this neck of the woods is not going to be organised by a union branch, Respect, the Labour Party or the SWP. Our Lady of the Assumption is having a special Popemass to celebrate the migrant workers who live in the parish. It will be pretty well attended. Feel free to chastise them for their ideological backwardness but the hard fact is that they get more out of their membership of the Catholic Church than any other organisation they could choose to join.

It would make for an interesting spectacle if a few of the liberal and left secularists demanding the arrest of Pope Benedict tried to rustle up support for their campaign among some of the most exploited workers in London .

Reading Richard Dawkins, George Monbiot, or even that scourge of the ultra-left’s fantasies Dave Osler call for the cuffs to be slapped on Benny Ratzinger the phrase “one-sided, undialectical and therefore wrong” comes to mind. The demand might strike a stirring chord with the militant godless on a mission to free the unenlightened churchgoers from their ignorance. It’s much more likely to be seen as a malicious provocation by the churchgoers who, probably correctly, will see it as a clumsily disguised attack on their religion itself.

To be consistent why not add to the warrant the Church’s role in the conquest of Latin America, the burning of Girolamo Savonarola, its support for the Hitler and Mussolini? As the leader of the organisation the Pope should carry the historical can.

And if we’re in the mood for dishing out arrest warrants would the pre-election period not be a good time to demand the arrest of all those present and former ministers with direct political responsibility for the ongoing wars and occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan? New Labour’s period in office has been one long spell of wars of aggression. They are rather proud of it if Blair’s performance at the Chilcott Enquiry is an indicator. Gordon Brown may have said something comparable to Ratzinger’s “you have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured” to the people of Afghanistan but it hasn’t made the news. The Labour Party’s NEC may have said something akin to the English Bishops’ “these terrible crimes, and the inadequate response by some church leaders, grieve us all. " Or perhaps not.

A lot of people who are strongly anti-war, instead of calling for Brown to be arrested, will be without great passion, trying to persuade others to vote for his party. Many of them will have a sneaking sympathy with Dawkins and Monbiot.

The left liberal intelligentsia is making a wrong call on this issue. Most working class Catholics make a distinction between clerics who abuse children and those who don’t. None of them would have a problem with arresting, prosecuting and imprisoning abusers. They would be understandably angry if hostile outsiders use the abuse as a flag of convenience to sneer at their own religious beliefs.

If you try to engage with them by humiliating them for their beliefs they will circle the wagons. If you make a distinction between the abusers and their experience of their local church you might even be able to persuade them that there should be no religious control of schools or medical facilities and that clerics have no particular right to impose their ideas on the rest of society.

More here.

27 responses to “Let’s not arrest the Pope”

  1. daveinstokenewington Avatar
    daveinstokenewington

    Chill Liam

    I am *not* calling for the arrest of your spiritual leader. Even if my mother did believe he is the Antichrist. Read the article again.

    You may care to look at your co-religionist Mr Matgamna’s splenetic take on all this here:

    http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/04/15/catholic-church-cover-prosecute-pope

    Like

  2. I would not appeal to the bourgeois state to arrest Ratzinger but I definitely are in favour of the Italian working class taking over the Vatican state

    Like

  3. splinteredsunrise Avatar
    splinteredsunrise

    There’s an argument to be made that Vatican City shouldn’t exist as an independent state, but I’m not sure the Berlusconi government would be an improvement. In fact I’m sure it wouldn’t be.

    What constantly surprises me is how ready the British liberal-left is to roll out the old Guy Fawkes language. If you’re interested in organising Polish or Lithuanian migrant workers, as opposed to retired Open University lecturers, you may find your efforts hampered by rhetoric that wouldn’t be out of place in a Rangers supporters’ club.

    Like

  4. all this dawkins new atheism stuff is faux radicalism of the worst kind, i’ve yet to meet anyone who buys it who isnt a midlde class tosser

    Like

  5. Was going to say there is a good piece on Bristol Red dissing Dickie Dawkins but then realised thats the thing quietly linked to above…

    Like

  6. yep the pope is shite, but there are plenty of sound Catholics out there, good on liberation theology and international solidarity in many cases.

    This is very similar to some of the debates on Islam, not that there is a Pope, but there are progressive and regressive shades.

    Likewise you can have some pretty authoritarian shades of secularism and others that advocate pluralism.

    Like

  7. Well said Liam and Bristol Red.

    Like

  8. I couldn’t believe that the leaders’ debate on Sky tonight saw a question on whether the politicians would welcome the pope visiting the UK and the catholic church’s attitude to contraception, biological science, gay rights etc. I mean, is this really one of the most important issues in this election? I thought it was embarassing, and the responses of the leaders reflected the fact it was such an odd question. And a really, really, ignorant and boring one to boot.

    Like

  9. […] is an absolutely first class article by Liam Mac Uaid , much better than I could have done, so I reproduce in full: The largest May Day related workers’ […]

    Like

  10. Garibalby – because the Pope’s not an imrortant and influential figure on the world stage? Odd would have been if they”d been asked about the Mormons or Scientologists.

    To be consistent why not add to the warrant the Church’s role in the conquest of Latin America, the burning of Girolamo Savonarola, its support for the Hitler and Mussolini?
    Ok then.

    Like

  11. Skidmarx,

    I think that the pope is not an important and influential issue in this election. In the slightest. Plus it was frankly such a stupid question that they were only ever all going to say of course they were going to welcome the pope. After all, you’d even get the same answer in NI these days.

    Like

  12. Well he’s over the news quite a bit(incidentally I could riff awhile on how full of shit Vincent Nichols’ latest statement is). No he’s not a dividing line between the parties, and therefore not an issue (though Labour probably has to be most careful about not offending the credulous). Frankly if any mainstream politician says they don’t believe in motherhood and apple pie I’d be very much suprised. Even those from NI.

    Like

  13. I’d agree. So the decision to include this question by the shows editors I find still more baffling.

    Like

  14. Deary me, why would daveinstokenewington think that Sean Matgamna was Liam’s “co-religionist” ?
    What an appalling leftist trainspotter mistake.
    Unless I have been badly advised of course.
    Matgamna is bound to take the position he does because he totally fails to understand the points that Liam makes above.
    As too does daveinstokenewington.

    Like

  15. A useful rule of thumb for tricky political issues is to find out what Sean Matgamna thinks. The opposite is almost always right.

    Like

  16. […] faction’s talismanic reverence for the concept of legality, and it’s this that trips up Liam MacUaid’s argument against arresting the Pope when he makes his publicly funded visit to the UK. (I found […]

    Like

  17. […] faction’s talismanic reverence for the concept of legality, and it’s this that trips up Liam MacUaid’s argument against arresting the Pope when he makes his publicly funded visit to the UK. (I found […]

    Like

  18. I agree that sectarian stupidity that alienates ordinary working class people whose traditions are Catholic (or Islamic, as is often the case, these days on the political left as well as the racist right) is… well, stupid. And sectarian. And alienating. A campaign to arrest the Pope, arse that he is, seems like a piece of rhetorical political nonsense that would have a limited audience, and also, in targeting the Catholic church, ignores the long tradition of liberation theology. Also, nice one, Liam, re: Sean Matgamna.

    However… as an atheist, I haven’t minded the higher profile that atheism as an ethos has gotten of late. I’m hella tolerant, honestly, but it’s nice that it’s even up for discussion, instead of religious faith being blindly assumed, as it most often is in the US.

    Like

  19. In several posts Liam seems to unhelpfully brush aside the significant differences between smug, middle-class etc auto-anti-clericism, and legitimate protests against the reactionary positions and actions of particular religions. The latter often involves solidarity with faith members fighting to change their faith for the better. The Socialist Alliance in Australia has had no great trouble in both protesting the Church’s homophobia and sexism during the 2008 World Youth Day events in Sydney (alongside a range of others including Catholics), and in joining the broad defence of the progressive congregation of Father Peter Kennedy in Brisbane in its struggle for existence with the Church hierarchy. In this issue many Catholics are calling for not just prosecution of offenders but a radical overhaul of beliefs, practices and structures. Nothing wrong with supporting them and pointing out in appropriate ways the material roots of the Church’s problems.

    Stating, “Feel free to chastise them for their ideological backwardness but the hard fact is that they get more out of their membership of the Catholic Church than any other organisation they could choose to join.” isn’t a great advance on Dawkins, Hitchens et al., being a not very hard fact. There’s been plenty of research, including quantitative surveys, relevant to how religion relates to other forms of social practice and identity. Unsurprisingly the results are more complicated than it’s all reactionary false consciousness or it’s all the most important thing for everyone involved.

    Like

  20. Nick – to my knowledge the debate in Britain is being led by a section of the anti-religious intelligentsia and professional campaigners like Peter Tatchell. That’s what the press reports of their demos outside churches show. If there is a real movement of abuse victims it has no connection with these people. It certainly has no connection to the organised left.

    The situation in Ireland is rather different. Abuse victims there have an autonomous profile.

    Maeve – I’ve got something in the pipeline about the deference to religion in the US.

    Like

  21. I’m not very keen on Ratzinger.
    But when documents circulate around the British Foreign Office, suggesting he launch “Benedict” condoms, then I suspect Sectarian motives.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8642476.stm

    But I’m wondering if you can be arrested for impersonating the Pope?

    Like

  22. […] with strong affinities to the Leninist tradition – subconsciously had in mind when he recently berated prominent liberals for their apparent ‘militant godlessness’. Sorry mate, but I don’t […]

    Like

  23. There was a time when it was axiomatic for even reform-socialists (never mind Marxists) to be bitterly hostile to all forms of organised religion, and especially Catholicism. Now, it seems, the wadical “left” has made its peace with God…and Allah…and supestition…and homophobia…and child abuse…and aids being worse than birth control…and women being inferior… and Jews being responsible for killing Christ…

    ..You fucking shower OK with that are you? Good luck! If you are the “left” then I for one want nothing whatsoever to do with you.

    Like

  24. “You fucking shower OK with that are you? Good luck! If you are the “left” then I for one want nothing whatsoever to do with you.”

    Thank god!!! Peace at last!!!

    Now go and protest against the Mosque in New York and prepare for the attack on Iran.

    Like

  25. Gil Scott-Heron has a line on his most recent album “I’m the closest thing I have to a voice of reason”. It doesn’t only apply to him.

    Let’s not encourage Jim any further.

    Like

  26. Yes, maybe Jim will become the new editor of Harry’s place!

    Like

  27. Jim Denham

    “There was a time when it was axiomatic for even reform-socialists (never mind Marxists) to be bitterly hostile to all forms of organised religion, and especially Catholicism.”

    Would that be the time when many on the left were cheering for Polish Solidarity and the Afghan mujahedin?

    Actually, at least the more left-wing left today are not generally ‘cheering’ for religious movements that are funded by their own ruling class. In fact, there is nothing militantly godless about the likes of the AWL.

    They are just consistently pro-imperialist, which is why they cheered for clerical-led movements in the 1980s that their own ruling class liked, and they pretend to oppose religion today. Its not religion they oppose, its all and any opposition to imperialism.

    And as for Max Dunbar ‘arresting’ the pope, well maybe the pope should arrest Max Dunbar for supporting criminal wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan?

    Like

Leave a reply to Nick Fredman Cancel reply

Trending