Will Brown looks at the state of the world economy and anticipates Thursday’s upcoming leaders’ debate.

image Bourgeois democracy often acts as a fig-leaf, legitimising capitalist rule while holding out the hope, or mirage, of popular control and progressive change. Meanwhile, the state plays a key role in preventing one section of capital rising to dominance at the expense of capital in general.

The startling proposals for bank reform by the IMF demonstrate how the booming growth of the banks over the last 20 years is seen as the primary cause of the global crash. Finance capital dominated, destabilising the world economy and risking the interests of capital in general. State action is now required to control the monster, but this must be implemented at a global level.

On April 21st, leading Financial Times commentator Martin Wolf wrote on the need for major bank reform. He noted:

‘A large part of the activity of the financial sector seems to be a machine to transfer income and wealth from outsiders to insiders, while increasing the fragility of the economy as a whole.’

Concentration has meant a large number of small banks have merged into to a small number of giants. These have globalised, using competition among nations to force down regulation and tax. To grow larger and increase profits, the banks have used leverage – investing with borrowed money – to amplify returns. Britain has been at the forefront of these developments. Between 1880 and 1970, British banks had assets (interest bearing loans) around 50% UK GDP – over the last 30 years these assets have swollen to 550% UK GDP.

12 months ago, the G20 charged the IMF with drafting reforms of the banking system. Published last week, the IMF proposals surprised commentators with their scope. Two new international taxes are mooted: one on bank turnovers to generate a fund that will be used in future crises. A second on bank profits and bonuses is hoped to act as a deterrent to excessive risk taking. Many commentators have watched state guarantees protecting depositors’ savings while ‘too big to fail’ banks were bailed out. Bankers have been able to rake in massive salaries by taking high risks which were implicitly underwritten by tax payers. The quaint expression for this protection of millionaire bankers is ‘moral hazard’.

A rejuvenated Obama has joined the attack. Last week he addressed Wall Street bankers on the need for Democrat bank reforms to be passed. Among Obama’s audience was the leadership of Goldman Sachs, the most powerful Wall Street investment bank. The US Govt has aggressively charged Goldman with fraud committed during the crash. Goldman stands accused of deliberately creating bundles of failing sub-prime home loans. They then sold these designed to fail instruments to other banks. The US state has also set about the finance sector with some determination. A Congressional committee spotlight has turned on the rating agencies: Moody’s, Standard and Poors, and Fitch. These played a key role in the crash. Supposedly, they offered independent assessment of the credit worthiness of borrowers. The hearings reveal that the agencies tailored their credit ratings to suit the firms that were paying for them: the banks. Not surprising then that the assessors of risk proved unable to predict the collapse of the banking system.

But attempts by the IMF to reform the banking system threaten ideas of national sovereignty. Japan and Canada, whose banks avoided much of the turmoil of the crash, are opposing the IMF proposals. Japan’s banks have expanded as Wall Street and the City faltered. Naoto Kan, Japan’s finance minister recently said ‘The EU’s debate on the issue doesn’t mean that Japan should follow suit. The EU and the United States have their own ideas, and Japan has its own’.

The IMF has two major roles in the current drama. In addition to proposing reforms of the banking system, it is involved in the bail-out of Greece. The Fund was set up after WW2 to supervise stable relations between nation states. The founding members, 45 in all, subscribed funds. Voting rights are proportional to your subscription. As the wealthiest contributor, the USA has always had the loudest voice. The Fund had a general role of promoting trade, employment and growth. But it had a specific function of ‘assisting’ countries when they encountered ‘balance of payments’ difficulties. A state that develops a budget deficit, where state spending exceeded taxes collected, to the extent that ‘the markets’ (aka international capital) was no longer willing to lend that state money (buy its bonds) can turn to the IMF. The IMF would then offer to lend the government money, but only if the government took action to tackle the offending deficit. The IMF required recipients of its largesse to follow policies bitterly labelled ‘the Washington consensus’. A raft of neo-liberal policies – privatisation, repeal of labour protection law, slashing welfare spending, ending subsidies on basic commodities – was the required medicine if an impoverished country wanted IMF money.

So the IMF fights on two fronts: trying to force controls on the obese banks while helping the EU bail out the Greek economy in the face of bitter opposition by the Greek working class seeing their living standards cut by supra-national agents. And while the project of EU monetary integration hangs in the balance, commentators argue over the strength of the ‘recovery’.

The delightfully named Merryn Somerset Webb is clear that world capitalism is still in trouble. She writes for investors in the FT Money section. Stock markets have now recovered enough to make them look expensive by historic comparisons. The broadly based US Index – the S&P 500 – is currently trading at a P/E (the ratio of company stock market values to profits) of 19 times. This is high, a level that has preceded big market falls in the past. Webb then lists the reasons to be miserable for investors. UK unemployment has risen to 2.5million and inflation is close to twice the Bank of England’s preferred level. The international landscape is dangerous. The key US housing market is seeing repossessions increasing, house prices fragile and mortgage rates due to rise. The IMF is still seriously concerned about the stability of US and German banks. The Euro-zone is struggling to resolve the Greek budget crisis with Spain, Portugal and Ireland watching nervously. Their borrowing rates are edging higher.. China, the economy hoped to rescue the world, has taken sharp action to damp demand as a bubble threatens in the housing market. Webb’s advice is clear – stop buying shares.

The nightmare scenario is that a new bout of crisis will derail the IMF’s plans to restructure the global economy with a strong international regime of bank regulation. Tensions between nation states, exaggerated by crisis, may yet paralyse the possibility of international action. The summit two weeks ago of the BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, India and China) may prove historic. Their avowed goal is to “have a fundamental role in the construction of a multi-polar, equitable and democratic world order.” They will push for a change in voting arrangements for the I
MF and World Bank’s at the forthcoming G20. We shall see where this leads. Perhaps the final UK leaders’ debate on ‘the economy’ this Thursday will shed light on these historic developments. Or maybe not.

 

‘Doomsday machine: can we afford our financial system’ Martin Wolf, Financial Times 21/4 /2010

‘IMF calls for taxes on bank balance sheets’ FT 21/4/2010

‘Moody’s chief admits to failings but defends Wall Street fees’ FT 24/4/2010

‘In Japan, bankers balk at stricter regulations’ New York Times (Global edition) 23/4/2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund

‘Watching out for more economic dark clouds’ Merryn Somerset Webb FT

24/4/2010

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/89268

38 responses to “Where are we now?”

  1. P/E ratio not that high see here

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=amCv3DajopW4

    “Profit estimates for S&P 500 companies rose 9.1 percent on average in April, twice the gain in prices and the largest monthly increase since at least 2006, data compiled by Bloomberg show. The S&P 500 started today trading at 14.2 times forecasts for its companies’ profits, lower than any time since 1990, except for the six months after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. collapsed. “

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  2. That’s interesting billJ. Have you any idea how Webb and Bloomberg should give such different figures for this important measure? Webb is a high profile FT columnist and her column would have been read by tens of thousands of market traders, hedge fund managers and others. Surprising that she should be so wrong. Have you good reasons for beleiving Bloomberg is right and the FT wrong? I shall e-mail Merryn Somerset Webb and see if can can get a response.

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  3. 19 times is not that high either. Basically we’re entering profit report season. As profits have been much higher than anticipated the ratio of price to earnings has fallen even as shares have risen.
    Notably even on Lloyds and RBS. The government’s stake is now £10bn in profit. The upside on this is truly awesome. They bought their shares, a £45bn stake at 50p each, but they were trading for £6 before the crash. 12 X £45bn = £540bn or 39% of GDP and that’s just from RBS. Add on Lloyds and you’ve wiped out the entire national debt.
    Financial crisis? What financial crisis?

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  4. I’ve e-mailed Merryn Somerset Webb to see if she can throw any light on the disparity around P/E ratios.

    Do you think the Treasury could sell their shares in Lloyds and RBS at the moment.? Surely if they tried to sell the whole stakes the share price would collapse. Isn’t share price dependent upon the gaurantee of state support – at least for now. Did you see today’s FT on the implications of the 3 main parties promises on the next 4 years public spending? Not pretty reading. Though you’ve got me questioning the FTs figures now!

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  5. Some initial thoughs on what developments so far in the British General Election reflect?

    This general election represents a combination of long term historical decline of British Capitalism; a Ruling Class divided; New Labour trying to salvage its influence in the Labour Party; rise of Social Democracy; and sizeable middle class layers rejecting the Tory Party. The ruling class divisions goes back for nearly two centuries. Differences over whether to go with the EU-Imperialist led bloc or American Imperialism is essentially the continuation of a dispute known as Free Trade versus Protectionism. The key difference is that since the 19th Century to the early decades of 20th Century British Capialism was a very dominant power. Today British Capitalism is massively in decline with Blair and Brown being linked to Neo-Con policies which is leading to US Imperialism losing a war in Iraq and British Imperialism losing a US-led Imperialist war within Afghanistan. Now on top of this British Capitalism is facing one one of its worse economic crisis in its history as world Capialism in its decay is entering its worse crisis. Will Hutton made an interesing historical observation in the Observer when the Northrn Rock crisis broke out in the Autumn of 1997 that there was no run on a British bank since the 19th Century. Hutton pointed out that Churchill remarked during the 1930s Depression that if there had been a run on a British bank it would have finished the British Empire.

    These differnces over strategy and tactics within the ruling class is imporant to understand class and inter-class relations as they change rapidly change dialectically. Lenin and Trotsky argued divisions within a ruling class is one necessary condition for revoluion. Cameron has tried to win the Liberal Bourgeoisie over by saying that despite being a problem over Euroskepticism the Tories will attack the workers more effecively. When there are divisions within the ruling class they undercut each other and through manouvering with other classes attempt to shape events for their interests. Most Liberal Bourgeois elements do not want the Tories in office with the Euro in crisis which could further weaken and destroy that currency and the EU. The Lib Dems have been used to stop a Tory majority and also implement cutbacks by forming a coalition government wih a Bourgeois faction (New Labour) and right wing Social Democrats wihin a Social Democratic Labour Party. Another consideration is by the Lib Dems adapting to middle class anger is stop them temporially looking to working class leadership through the Trade Unions and potential left Social Democraic tendencies within the Labour Party. Capitalism is being shown to be bankrupt daily. British Imperialism’s foreign policy strategies cannot work because the Euro will collapse at some point and Imperialist nation states will become more powerful as inter-Imperialist tensions deepen. Marx is still correct the two fundamental contradictions of Capialism is that they create world markets but are dominated by Imperialist nation states and that conflict between Capital and Labour cannot be reconciled.

    The Liberal Bourgeoisie represented by Indusrial Capialists were in a growing conflict with Conservative Bourgeois Merchants and Arisocrats which led to revoluionary upheavals in 1832. This forced the middle class having a right to vote. Once the Tories introduced Corn Law leglislation Liberal Bourgeois elements removed them in government by a combinaion of splitting their party and forming coalitions with the Whigs (becoming Liberal Party during late 1850s). It was only after 30 years when they agreed under Disralei not to make Protectionism a major issue did the ruling class allow the Tories to form governments again. Another consideration which the ruling class may have used the Tories as a barganiship against the rise of German and American Imperialism which were competing for British markets and who were putting up protective tariffs. It is interesing to note it was the Primrose League led by Disraeli and Randoloph Churchill which was used to make sure Disreali became Tory leader. The Primrose League dissolved in 2004 when Howard was Tory leader, approxmately 12 months before Cameron became leader. This dissolving of the Primrose League after nearly one and half centuries existing is an interesting development which might mean the Tory Party could be in terminal crisis.

    In 1866 Marx argued the victory of Lincoin in the American Civil War; Italian unifcation of 1861; and rise of Bourgeois Nationalism in Hungary during the 1860s helped a radicalisation among British workers. During 1866 workers demanding a right to vote when they were not allowed a rally at Hyde Park broke that park’s railings. Fearing a revolution the ruling class allowed most male workers the right to vote. After certain workers run the right to vote the Liberal and Tory Parties vied to gain their vote. The Tories main base was among the Aristocracy of Labour. In order to prevent workers organising their own party the Liberal Party attemped to gain votes from poorer workers and to run Trade Union candidates who subordinated themselves to Liberal Bourgeois politics. Eventually Trade Unionists had to break from the Liberal Party and form their own party because both Tories and Liberals brought in anti-strike leglislation. This is why it is such a setback for class independence that the Bourgeois elements (New Labour faction) and right wing Social Democrats are pushing for a coalition government with an anti-working class party such as the Lib Dems who will attempt to make workers and middle class pay for Capitalist crisis. If there is a hung parliament and a coalition government is formed it could a major crisis which could lead to a mass left wing shift within the Labour Party or a massisve left split which could win a landslide under PR.

    The Labour Represenation Committee was established in 1900. In 1905 the Tory government fell over differences concerning over Imperial British Empire tariffs. Campbell-Bannerman was asked to form a Liberal government. He decided to call a general election. It led to a Liberal Party landslide. Trotsky argued this was their last resurgence before the Labour Party eclisped them in the 1920s. Due to workers wanting cheap bread from imported foods the Liberal Pary argued in that election if tariffs were introduced the poorest workers would die from starvaion due to not affording bread prices. The Parliamentary Labour Pary was set up after Parliament reconvened in early 1906. They had increased their representation from 2 in 1900 General Election to 25+ during 1906 election. Reforms were introduced to stop Labour’s growth; prevent a revolution; and outmanouvre the Tory Party. In the 1910 election there was a hung parlinament. The Liberals only stayed in power in alliance with Labour and Irish Bourgeois Nationalists. If Lloyd Geroge had not call for a slight tax on Aristocratic estates to fund old age pensions the Tories would have won that 1910 election which could have potentially streenghened Protectionist tendencies. This is an example of Liberal Bourgeois elements utilising other classes to strenghen their sectional faction within the ruling class. His demagogic speeches in East London is shown in episode 2 of Andrew Marr’s series on “the making of modern Britain”.

    During 1916 the Liberal Party split when Llyod George with the Tories removed Asquith as Prime Minister. This represented a deal between Liberal and Conservative Bourgeois elements to close ranks in order to win World War 1 against German Imperialism attempting to replace them as a major Imperialist world power. Lloyd George remained Prime Minister until 1922 despite Tories being the largest party after a 1918 general election because Liberal Bourgeois elments wanted it guarnteed that Protectionist measures were not introduced. Labour in that 1918 election replaced Liberals as the second largest party. This was a result of a workers radicalisation due to strikes and increased hardships due to World War 1. The October 1917 Russian Socialist revolution also had a major radicalising effect. All these processes led to the rise of Social Democracy. Until the 1923 General Election there were two Liberal parties running against each other. There was a Liberal Party reunifcation to fight that general election becasue Baldwin was suggesing Protectionist measures. Out of that election there was the first minority Labour government. It was only in this election that the Liberal Party ever reached 150+ seats. The highest since then was at the 1929 and 2005 general elections of 50+ and 62.

    After a few months the Tories brought down the Labour government in 1924. The Tories won a landslide in a general election held during October 1924. Bourgeois analysts believed by using the Zinionviev letter forgery they won Liberal Party voters over to voting Tory in order to stop Labour forming a government. There were sharp class conflicts after that election culminaing in a 1926 general strike. The workers looked politically after Trade Union Bureaucrats sold out that general strike by voting labour in 1929. Due to McDonald not being able to implement cuts in social security he formed a coalition with Tories and Liberals which led to his expulsion from the Labour Party. McDonald called a general election which led to the Tories being the biggest Coalition party with them winning 55% of the popular vote. This was the last general election where a party recieved 50% or over in popular votes. The closest was 1945 where Labour was a few thousand short of recieving 50%. Labour in the 1931 general election was reduced to 52 seats. McDonald was kept as Prime Minister partly to reduce Protectionist measures. During the mid-1930s Baldwin managed to implement protectionist measures. This led to the Liberal Party spliting three ways. Lloyd George refused to join the coalition government in 1931. Herbert Samuel left the coalition government once Baldwin annoucned those measures. There were established a party called Liberal National that stayed in the coalition due to agreements with protectionism.

    Since World War 2 British Imperialism has been on the decline. American Imperialism humilating British Imperialism over Suez in 1956 made Britain’s ruling class sober up to their real power in the world. Due to the Soviet victories against German Fascism/Imperialism despite those Bureaucrats intentions provoked revolutionary upheavals in France; Italy; and Greece. In Germany during May 1945 tens of thousands of workers were marching with red flags. Those developments influenced the 1945 British general election. Due to the 1930s depression and hardship of World War 2 there was a working and layers of a middle class radicalisation to rebuild houses; establishment of NHS; a welfare state; public services extended in education; and nationalisation of certain industries. All this led to Labour’s 1945 lanslide vicory. It was only in 1997 and 2001 general elections did labour win a bigger landslide.

    The Eden faction won out in the Tory Party over to accepting that they would not reverse most of Labour’s reforms. In a 1951 general election labour won 13 million votes and won more popular votes than Tories but Tories won that election. They re-privaised 100 nationalised steel companies. This was their first act in government. By ending rationing was one factor in winning a 1955 general election. McMillan won the 1959 general election on a slogan “you never had it so good!” By that demagogic slogan he attempted to incorporate a workers radicalisation into Bourgeois poliics. This did no work with strikes increasing. There was also a middle class radicalisaion which was beginning to support workers struggles and fights against Racism. That trend was represented by what became known as angry young men. The radicalisation against Racism and Sexism was influenced by a civil rights movement in America. The Porfumo scanadal weakened the ruling class’s authority over millions of workers. All these developments culminated in Labour winning the 1964 and 1966 general elections. There were reforms on social questions such as abortion and decriminalising Homosexuality. Wilson’s attack on the Trade Unions led to disillusionment among workers which played into Heath’s hand in 1970. Racism whipped up by Enoch Powell helped the Tories win the 1970 general election. There was a 9% swing in Powell’s constitunency which indicated how racism and xenophobia strenghthens capital over the workers. The wokers payed a price with Tories viciously attacking Unions.

    Thatcher accelerate this decline further with closing a third of manufacturing industry. Trotsky said that finance capital dominates Capitalism. This is why Trotskyists argue that you have to protect productive forces Capitalism tends to destroy by overthrowing Capital which will centralise socialisation of economic capacity. As Marx said in the Communist Manifesto in periods of crisis Capital will destroy what was economically built up in order to reduce surplus products which are no longer profitable. Due to Thatcher beating the unions she suceeded in destroying millions of jobs. In other Western European countries workers won more battles, therefore stopping their ruling classes carrying out redundancies on a similar scale.

    Workers brought Heath down during a 1973-74 miners strike. This led to a minority labour government after winning February and October 1974 general elections. They were used by the ruling class to contain a workers radicalisation. When they imposed wage reductions it upset the Aristocracy of Labour. The middle class was alienated due to class battles not being won by capital or labour. Thatcher played on middle class layers being against strikes to win the 1979 general election. She won the Aristocracy of Labour by allowing them to own their own council homes and buy shares through privatising certain nationalised industries. If it was not for the Falklands War in 1982 she would have lost the 1983 general election due to her policies of causing millions being made unemployed. The 1987 general election was just won by Thatcher due to a economic recovery beginning.

    After the 1987 general election there were beginnings of a middle class radicalisation. It was over against the strong state championed by Thatcher; they feared losing out in 1987-90 recession; and against the Poll Tax. This combined with a growing workers radicalisation forced Thatcher out. Liberal Bourgeois elements also removed Thatcher as Prime Minister because she was too destructive to the EEC (predeccessor to EU). Major attemped to adapt to a middle class radicalisation by attempting to appear more liberal. In the 1992 general election the Tory Party won 14 million votes, the highest of any party in British electoral history. Then dialectically after that election it turned into its opposite by the nex general election in 1997 where they suffered their worse defeat since 1832. This was a result of the working and sizeable layers of a middle class radicalisation deepening. Britain pulling out of ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism) in September 1992 led to middle class losing confidence in the Tories. There is an histoiric myth that it was New Labour who won the 1997 landslide. Even under John Smith Labour was 15% to 20% ahead of Tories in the polls. The middle class were involved in ecologial campaigns against motorways in Newbury; against Criminal Justice 1994 Bill which limited right to assembly; and for cancellation of Third World debts.

    I have analysed in previous documents what the 1997 and 2001 general elections represented a radicalisaion; and left/right shifts since then (see blog 1 report on 2007 LRC conference). I am not going to repeat myself on these themes. It is difficult to predict the outcome of this general election. The workers could go back to labour due to fearing Tory attacks. Clegg may have overplayed his hand in trying to determine the next Labour Party leader. Balls coming out against a coalition government with him sidelining Mandelson could represent a move by Trade Union Bureaucrats to stop a coalition. There is competition between Lib Dems and Tories to be the main Bourgeois party. Portillo said last night that the masses may vote Lib Dem to get PR introduced. PR will allow more left wing and right wing parties chance to get a bigger base. During a week Portillo has changed his line from supporing PR to opposing it. He maybe trying to win the Bourgeoisie away from PR by convincing them that it will destabalise politics. The Lib Dems will decline after this election due to possible resurgance of Social Democracy and polarisation beween left and right. If the Tories lose this election Cameron maybe removed as leader with right wing populists becoming leader. Trotskyists oppose a coalition governmnt with the Lib Dems because a working class party is subordinating themselves to a Capitalist party. There maybe revolutionary upheavals against the extent of cuts.

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  6. The bosses are pretty united on the cuts programme. According to a report I read the differences between the three parties amounted to 0.25% of GDP over three years!
    But it rules out the recovery of the nationalised banks which is pretty much guaranteed and happened much faster than they anticipated. Their combined profits before the credit crunch i.e. 2007 were £20bn.
    They’ve got the same story in the Guardian
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/26/profit-taxpayers-bailed-out-bank-shares

    They may as well hang onto the shares and keep the profits, but I’m sure they’re keen to unload them to their city friends asap.

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  7. The down grading of Greek debt by US rating agencies is ironic considering US Senate Comittee’s current examination of the failings of these very rating agencies. The markets clearly still think the downgrade matters. So Greece to default and leave the Eurozone with the pressure then turning to Portugal. The Eurozone appears to have entirely failed to sort out the Greek dilemma. Will thye be any more convincing on Portugal, Spain or Ireland? The Eurozone slowly unwinds from the edges creating new bank chaos and trade collapse. Or maybe, as billJ contends, profits are rising strongly and the markets have nothing to worry about.

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  8. Its not a contention that profits are rising strongly its a fact. If you think that the Eurozone is unwinding you need to explain it in the context of that.
    One thing that maybe worth mulling over is that Germany now exports more to China than to France. If growth to the world market really does provide Germany with an alternative to Europe maybe this explains their reticence to finance the project, not falling profits.
    After all profits aren’t falling.

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  9. BTW just in case you’re interested this is what UBS had to say about it;

    “Executive summary
    Fundamentally, we have not changed our view since the beginning of the Greek crisis. Essentially this can be summarised into three main ideas:
    (1) A default is extremely unlikely if not impossible on the short term because it would be too dangerous for the rest of the zone. So, some form of bailout will likely happen.
    More details available on:
    • “Can Greece default?”, 1 December 2009.
    On the fundamental economic and fiscal situation.
    • “The Greek budget: why we are not convinced”, 3 February 2010.
    On our assessment of the first budget presented in early February.
    • “Greece: no news, bad news”, 17 February 2010.
    Includes a discussion on the possible mechanism for a EU help to Greece.
    • See the following of this piece, the recent market action means that an external intervention, most likely from the IMF, is probably imminent.
    (2) A default on the medium term is possible but certainly not our central case scenario. The task to put Greece back on track is immensely demanding and we cannot be sure the Greek government will be able to do it.
    More details available on:
    • The three papers quoted above
    • See first part of this piece, we discuss how difficult it will be for Greece to stabilise its fiscal situation.
    (3) This is a Greek problem; we should not extrapolate the issue to other countries. The other European countries are in a very different situation, and we are reasonably confident on their ability to stabilise their public finances.”

    Take that as you will. But its the internal story of the financial capitalists.

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  10. Apologies billJ. I don’t dispute overall profits are rising strongly- as you say, that is a fact. They are recovering from their dramatic falls of the last 2 years. But I believe it is your contention only that this recovery in profits means markets have nothing to worry from the Greek budget crisis – or the other issues mentioned in article above. Its not a fact – just your opinion. Thanks for the info from UBS. I don’t think you can really say ‘its the internal story of the financial capitalists’. UBS are an important bank but they don’t necessarily speak for all financial capitalists. Clearly there are complex political issues at stake, not least the intense unpopularity of a Greek bail-out amongst the German electorate. What size spending cuts will the Greeks tolerate and still embrace the EU? Regarding the UBS points: it seems to me that the first sentence of point 1 stands in stark contradiction to the first sentence of point 3. I suspect UBS does not have a dis-interested position in relation to the Greek bond market specifically or the Greek budget crisis in general.

    Thanks for the ongoing discussion.

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  11. Things look a bit different if you take of the rose-tinted spectacles:-

    “Stock markets around the world plunged today after Standard & Poor’s cut Greece’s credit rating to junk status and downgraded its view of Portugal in the clearest evidence yet that the European sovereign debt crisis is spreading. Italy and Spain are also viewed as vulnerable.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/27/greece-credit-rating-downgraded

    “Britain’s leading economics thinktank yesterday accused all three main parties ‑ and particularly Labour ‑ for failing to come clean over the scale of tax rises, welfare cuts and spending retrenchment necessary after the election.
    In an attack on the “vague” plans sketched out by Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, the Institute for Fiscal Studies also claimed the Tories were planning the sharpest spending cuts since the second world war, while the Labour and Lib Dem spending slowdowns amounted to the biggest retrenchment since the IMF crisis in the mid-1970s.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/27/general-election-spending-cuts-ifs

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  12. Its obviously the case that the Greek crisis is serious. It exposes the frailties of the Eurozone. No in least due to the determination of the Greek working class not to except the cuts. There is a realisation dawning on the Euro imperialists that they will not be able to extract the level of cuts they demand.
    My point was simply that this financial crisis takes place against the background of a general recovery. Is it enough to knock that off track? Experience of the last two years shows that it is.
    But that doesn’t mean it will do. The Euro imperialists have a lot invested in the Eurozone and they’re not about to surrender that lightly.

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  13. “accept” of course not “except”. I’ve not had my coffee yet.

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  14. Prianikoff: not sure who you are saying is wearing the special glasses.

    Has anyone seen any figures as to where Greek debt is principally held and how stable the Greek banking sector is? I assume that many of the bonds are held by European banks. Has anyone read stuff on political tensions within Greece’s government? What happens if the Greek government can’t agree on the demands of the IMF or Eurozone? Will the main architect of the emergency Greek budget be the IMF, Eurozone or Green gvmnt?

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  15. I was beginning to wonder if the parties (as opposed to the individual candidates) might be as happy to lose this election, because of the massive unpopularity to come of the administration that will have to carry out cuts, in contrast to 1997 when Major complained that Blair was going to get the benefit of an improving economy.

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  16. I’ve written this stuff up here

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=3025

    Germany so I gather own 45% of Greek debt.

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  17. Sorry that is $45bn of Greek debt. I’ve updated the amounts on the PR site.

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  18. Gordon Brown certainly looks like he’s trying to loose it for new labour skidmarx.
    Is that ‘Germany’ as in ‘German banks and other financial institutions’ own $45 bn Greek debt billJ? As opposed to ‘the German government’?

    In an aside, in a recent FT editorial it said that the IMF was still particularly concerned about the state of German and US banking. There was no elaboration – but i’ve read elsewhere that there is still big concern about the US mortgage market and also I remember that there’s a German financial figure (can’t remember his name) who’s made a splash claiming that German banks are much less stable than the Germans pretend. They certainly talk about Greece as though the German financial system is the yoghurt of fiduciary stability.

    We were speculating at work today that S&P dpwngraded Greece in retatliation for being slagged off in the Senate committee hearings. ‘You get pissy with us and we’ll tear the whole house down’ type stuff. Any views on this?

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  19. Who’d have thought it was possible to feel some empathy for Gordon?

    Gillian Duffy was coming out with some fairly standard anti immigrant views and he obviously looked really uncomfortable. It almost looked like he would have given her a harder time if the cameras hadn’t been on him.

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  20. Must agree with you Liam. For once Gordon was telling it how it was. I can remember going round those very same estates with AFA….20 years ago!

    yes that it is German banks and financial institutions. You’ve got to bear in mind that all this rating agency stuff is highly political and in large part cos they want to get a load of cheap money of the European governments.
    Looks like they’ll probably succeed with talk of anew E120bn bail out on the cards.

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  21. Hmmm, I’m not so sure of the analysis discussed here. The Greek crisis is not simply about the birth pains of a new economic boom and the changing dynamics of trading in the world economy.

    The crisis of credit in the banks was the result of huge and mounting debt in the financial sector. This debt has not disappeared. In some cases, major banks have taken on the debt while in others, governments have underwritten the debt.

    In cases such as Greece, Portugal and Spain, this has prompted an expansion of the national debt well beyond the Eurozone limits and fear of default.

    As with the great banking crisis of 1929-31, there will be periodic panics even as profitability is restored. The reason is that the capitalist class has been spooked by the failure of Lehmann Bros and the fear of being caught holding bad debt. One of the key problems of the credit default swap crisis is that no bank or government actually knows what the exact composition and value of the debt held will be. This leaves the banking and government debt system vulnerable to panic.

    Each time there is a panic, it raises the possibility that another might collapse or a government will default or go belly up as Iceland did.

    Profits may be up but not to the levels required to wish away the debt.

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  22. Here is Jill Treanor in the Grauniad:

    ‘Analysts at Credit Suisse calculated that UK banks had £25bn of exposure to Greece and Portugal but £75bn to Spain, where the collapse in the property market has already forced banks such as Barclays to admit to bad debt problems and left Royal Bank of Scotland facing questions about its exposure.

    “Lloyds’ exposure to the three regions is likely to be negligible, we estimate that Barclays has £40bn exposure (predominantly loans in Spain and Portugal, excluding daily positions in Barclays Capital), and RBS has around £30bn–£35bn (again predominantly Spain, although we estimate £3bn to £4bn in Portugal and Greece as well),” the Credit Suisse analysts said.’

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  23. Personally I felt no sympathy for Brown – just made me feel feel he was arrogogant and isolated. Being concerned about levels of imigration doesn’t necessary make people bigots in my book. Happily support No Borders myself, but can talk to people who are concerned about immigration without felling I automatically have to label them racist.

    Chris C – thanks for banking figures: isn’t it peculiar how Greeks look destind for hard time of austerity whereas countries with nearly as bad debt positioms will have a much easier time – unless the spotlight of the bond markets fall on them. Nevertheless – the list of countries heading for 30’s style austerity is growing – Iceland, Hungary, Latvia, Greece,,,

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  24. I think the comparison with 1929-31, one being pushed by this issue of the ISJ, is pretty laughable. After 1929 world production fell by 30% and did not recover for ten years, not indeed until WWII. On this occasion world industrial production fell by 13% but has nearly completely recovered within 12 months.
    Never mind the absence of the Nazis, fascists, Chinese civil war, Spanish civil war, British Naval mutiny and so forth.
    Actually a lot of the debts have gone away. The banks have written off around $2trillion.
    The state has taken much of that burden. But its not the same. Now we are seeing them debating who will repay those loans and a revival of the class struggle.
    But still no comparison with the Great Depression.
    People need to get a grip.

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  25. Am trying my best to get a grip, billJ. Is the ISJ the SWP magazine?

    Two stories struck me in todays FT. One was the discussion of Harrisburg (and other US municipalities) considering bankruptcy – the rarely used section 9 legislation as opposed to the very common section 11 for commercial companies. With a $2.8 trillion municipal bond market, any significant level of municipal bankruptcy would cause serious problems.

    There was also an item in Lex on Ireland. A 12% drop in GDP and still under threat from a detieriating ability to sell bonds.

    The policy response has been dramatically different to the 29 crash. The world economy, it seems to me, is still in serious trouble

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  26. Yes it is.

    http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=634&issue=126

    The policy response has been dramatically different, in as much as in 1929 the world’s capitalists allowed all of the world’s banks and financial institutions to collapse.
    This time they saved them.
    So not so much different as qualitatively distinct one might say. Yet the ISJ insist that this crisis is similar to that one.
    Yes the world economy is still scarred by the recession. And if Greece is allowed to fail, still possible although unlikely, then it would go back into recession.
    But it still wouldn’t be a re-run of 1929. That is after all what we are asked to measure it against. And all with a straight face too.

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  27. BillJ – i got a reply from Merryn Somerset Webb on the question of p/e levels. I’ve looked at the report she quotes – it certainly persuades me that stock prices are dangerously high again. Her reply:

    Dear Will,
    I am forwarding you the report I was quoting and hope it helps. ( ) Robin Griffiths is pretty good. I’m afraid that I can’t answer for Bloomberg but if you look in the FT you will see that the p/e for the S&P is now quoted at 19.8 times.

    Best wishes,

    Merryn

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  28. (M.S.Webb is a Financial Times journalist who’s column I quoted in the the article above. BillJ challenged her figures so i wrote to her and this is what I got back).

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  29. I’m sure you’re right. These things are something of a moveable feast. As profits come in this quarter, which have exceeded estimates by record amounts then the p/e will fall. But p/e ratio 19 is not that high. Look here

    http://www.irrationalexuberance.com/

    “Excel file with the data set”

    And you will see the p/e ratio back to 1860. 19 is actually a fall from recent levels – the last month quoted on here is April at 22. For comparison during the high tech bubble it reached 45. During the recent boom it was between 25-28.

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  30. BillJ – do you know why there is a budget crisis in Greece rather than Denmark or Belguim.? I’ve got as far as it being a particular issue for the weaker economies that joined the Euro. And I’ve also discovered that merchant shipping is still very important to the Greek economy – the Greek merchant fleet is still the largest in the world and is(one of) the largest fleets in container, bulk ore and oil tankers. I know that the Baltic Exchange (?) shipping index collpased during the crash. Has Greece gone bust trying to keep its merchant fleet afloat? Presumably tourism over the last 3 years has been weak as well. The German’s must be very worried – bail out Greece and what will the bond markets do when Portugal and Spain try to sell bonds in the coming months? And how will German banks fare if the bonds they hold are default because the German state doesn’t bail out Greece. A rock and a hard place blah blah

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  31. You’ve got to be very careful with those fleet figures, which country a ship registers in has little or no relationship to who actually owns it. Its done on who has the worst labour laws, health and safety standards, allows unregistered labour and so on, not on ownership.
    Greece is obviously a developed semi-colony rather than an imperialist nation. All of the basic figures on the European economies are here

    http://www.dbresearch.de/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?rwdspl=0&rwnode=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD$WESTERN_EUROPE_MAP&rwsite=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD

    Its GDP is only E230bn or a mere 2.6% of Eurozone GDP. The Germans/EU could easily afford to bail it out, its whether they want to. I get the feeling they’re regretting the expansion of the Eurozone and increasingly looking outside the EU towards emerging Asia which has been growing very strongly. Hence the strategic dilemma.

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  32. Hmmm, I took it from the wikkopedia figures that they were saying that Greek shipping lines owned the ships:

    ‘According to the BTS, the Greek-owned maritime fleet is today the largest in the world, with 3,079 vessels accounting for 18% of the world’s fleet capacity (making it the largest of any other country) with a total dwt of 141,931 thousand (142 million dwt).[47] In terms of ship categories, Greece ranks first in both tankers and dry bulk carriers, fourth in the number of containers, and fourth in other ships.’

    The Germans apparently will bail Greece out – I’m not sure ‘easily’. Greek GDP is nearly 10% German GDP. Politically its difficult within Germany. Can they then also bail out Spain and Portugal?

    Are Denmark, Holland and Belguim also developed semi colonies? Or are they Imperealist nations?

    Again, why is it that Greece, Spain and Portugal are in trouble and Belguim, Holland and Denmark are not? (Maybe Denmark isn’t in euro?)

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  33. You need to look up shipping on UNCTAD the latest report is here

    Click to access rmt2009_en.pdf

    See chapter point section B – ownership of fleet p53. Greece controls 3,064 vessels, but owns 720 of those, as 2344 are foreign registers. But actually you main point is substantiated Greece is one of the largest ship owners/registers in the world.
    Greece is 2.6% of European GDP. From what I’ve read the package covers pretty much all of Greek debt, the issue is whether the Germans are prepared to finance it and whether the Greek workers are prepared to pay it.
    Neither is totally decided yet.
    I’d have to look closer at Belgium, Holland and Denmark, but I’d call of them minor imperialist nations in the orbit of Germany.
    Greece is an outler developed semi-colony similar to ireland.

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  34. That is chapter 2 section B.

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  35. See chapter point section B – ownership of fleet p53. Greece controls 3,064 vessels, but owns 720 of those, as 2344 are foreign registers.

    Don’t understand this really – i thought it was common for owners of ships to register under flags of convenience to take advantage of lax employment laws by, say, the phillipines. How does Greece ‘control’ 3,064 vessels if it only owns 720?

    Off to Liverpool/Leeds to see the mighty Bristol Rovers saturday. I trust the markets will remain calm until my return. Teehee. I see the Pru has pulled its rights issue!!

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  36. Dunno. You’ll have to read the report!

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  37. The Greek Merchant Shipping Industry

    The Greek-owned merchant fleet is indeed the largest in the world.
    The shipping magnates from the islands, like Chios, are legendary.
    It’s heavily concentrated in ships transporting dry goods.
    Oil tankers and container ships have a higher proportion of German, Japanese and Chinese owned vessels.

    During the boom years, these Greek capitalists expanded and globalised their investments considerably.
    Increasingly, they’re employing lower paid sailors from South Asia and Eastern Europe, using foreign registered vessels.
    Most of the declining number of the Greek sailors are employed on Greek-flagged vessels.
    Of the sailors employed on all Greek-owned vessels in 2004, there were 17,897 Greek nationals, compared to 13,023 foreign nationals.

    The contraction in world trade since 2008 seriously affected the revenues by these ships.
    The dry goods and container sectors were particularly badly hit, with takings falling by up to 90%.
    Since the Merchant navy generates around 10% of Greece’s GDP, the knock-on effects have been serious for the whole economy

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  38. The Greek Public Debt Crisis

    The other major factor in the Greek economic crisis is the extent of Greek government borrowing from international banks & pension funds.
    Using its membership of the Eurozone as security, Greece has built up one of highest public debt-to-GDP ratios in the EU.
    When he was elected as PM in 2009, George Papandreou revealed that Greece had a budget deficit of 12.7% of GDP, four times more than the eurozone’s limit.

    French and German ministers felt the Greek government had been profligate and were very reluctant to commit EU funds to a bail-out.
    They’re fearful that the Euro will be destabilised and Germany in particular, will have to pay for the bulk of the EU contribution (22 billion Euros).
    So there’s been a game of pass the parcel going on with the IMF, which feared that externalising the bail-out would cause even bigger problems for the major non-EU economies.
    In a sense they’re both right; these are by no means mutually incompatible alternatives.

    In the end, the hostile brothers realised that a default would be disastrous.
    It would lead to massive losses for investors in Greek bonds and the banks which had lent to Greece.
    So they’ve reluctantly arrived at a bail-out package whereby the IMF gives Greece a loan of 30 billion Euros (which is 40 times what it was allowed under IMF quotas!)
    For it’s part, the EU is promising 80 billion Euros over the next 3 years.
    The funds will be provided in return for an agreement by the Greek government to cut public spending and increase taxes.
    Any new austerity measures will be in addition to those already announced by Papandreou in February.

    This plan is all to be finalised by this Sunday, but it also requires agreement by national parliaments across the EU.
    Of course, there are no guarantees that this will work.
    As I’ve argued for some time now, the bail out of the banks is at the expense of the national exchequers.
    So if anything, the financial crisis has been elevated to a more political level.

    The austerity plan will be strongly resisted by the working class in Greece and the government may not be able to hold the line.

    Today Greece has been paralysed by a general strike and three people killed in the rioting at its fringes.
    Many older public sector workers are trying to resign while they’re still eligible for the pension payments.
    There’s widespread anger at tax evasion by the rich and demands from the unions that they share the burden of austerity measures.

    If the underlying weaknesses in the economies of Portugual, Spain, Italy and even Britain prove to be just as serious, the strain on the resources of the IMF might be more than it could deal with.
    That could be the buffer on which neo-Keynesian policies shudder to a halt.
    Then things would get really nasty.
    “Quite simply, Europe’s future is at stake.” Angela Merkel.

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