This video is of Alan Thornett speaking at last night’s Socialist Resistance forum.
Post election analysis video
This video is of Alan Thornett speaking at last night’s Socialist Resistance forum.
1–2 minutes
43 responses to “Post election analysis video”
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He does take quite a while to get going. Most of the first fifteen minutes were less informative than a quick scan of the newspapers. And even then some of it wasn’t accurate. Bourgeois politcians don’t always prefer to be in power, the argument, stemming from Mervyn King’s remark that those that take power now might be out of power for a generation might well have influenced Labour’s said to be hard stance on negotiations.
And such comments as that the TV debates marginalise minor parties are a truism. What else did he expect?
His argument that Respect’s ‘scratch’ candidates results should be ignored in an asessment of the performance is not unexpected, but it should really show that Respect has only an existence in a few places. HIs claim that Salma has a “strong base” in one council seat tells its own story. His conclusion that the rest of the left has more to account for than those within Respect shows that he seems to be unlikely to realise that the party is over for a while.
A more reasoned account of the state of play by Neil Williams is here.LikeLike
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The sound quality is very poor and I could not hear some of this post and I really did want to listen to it all.
This was a disaster for Resect inTower Hamlets now 3rd place in both East London seats and while Birmingham Hall Green was better the Liberals were a close 3rd and we are stil over 300+ vote short the same as the last election. With a LibCon government this is likley to eb repeated in the next election. The Greens did well with the help of votes from over 10,000 students living in Brighton who luckily for them wer ein college at the time of the election (some of this was an anti politics vote , anything other than the three main parties the Greenns being a Party you could project your own wish list onto).
No things have to change but if we dont see that anything is wrong then change will not occure. I was hoping that Socialist Resistance would be party to a meaningful post election discussion on the Respect NC but It does not look like it and we will I am afraid see the slow withering away of Respect. It could be different but SR will need to speak out loud and clear and if needed (and it will be needed) help to form a new Socialist democratic Left, if its possible, in the next year. I think remaining in Respect and building a new Left will become impossible for many of us if it is not already.
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Jesus – Skidmarx and Neil are now working in tandem.
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“Jesus, Skidmarx and Neil are now working in tandem.” Thats quite a trio!
Neil,
Salma’s vote increased but not by enough- fear of the Tories benefitted labour, overall turnout increased. Its difficult to see how Respect being part of a wider coalition could have boosted the figures in this particular instance.
What, concretely, could / should we in SR have done on the ground in Birmingham that we didn’t?If the Greens did so well in Brighton as a ‘not one of the main parties’ protest vote from students, how do you account for the relatively poor showing of Dave Hill in the neighbouring constituency who fought a superb, high profile, campaign as TUSC and clearly did not benefit from the same factors?
My neice is a student in Brighton. She voted Green but not because she is ‘anti-politics’ – she is reasonably clued up- her dad is in the Labour party and she must have benfitted from overhearing our drunken arguments at successive Xmases!
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‘HIs claim that Salma has a “strong base” in one council seat tells its own story.’
Salma topped the poll in both Sparkbrook and Springfield (half the constituency). Her vote is extremely impressive and a much better one then when she stood in 2005. Then, anger over Iraq burned brightly and different constituency boundaries made the demographics much more favourable. This time the constituency boundaries much less favourable, the war did not feature, and she was written off in advance. Two days before polling the Birmingham Mail said she would get just a ‘few thousand votes’. The Lib Dems literally bombarded voters with national publicity in a constituency where they held 8 out of the 12 councilors. Plus, she was handicapped by the fact her council and MP seats were up at the same time which caused much confusion in a community with literacy and language issues (many people were confused by the two ballot papers and she polled near 500 votes less for MP than she did for her council seat). Despite all this she came second, and on a smaller turnout would have won.
Now, only the ignorant and hopelessly sectarian fail to understand or recognize what an achievement that is.
Respect’s base has always been small and localized. But where is exists, it is real and surpasses anything else on the left by a few miles. Our future is uncertain. Time will tell how much the ground we stand on will now be further squeezed by a Labour party which in opposition will tack left. If factors outside our control overwhelm us, as they did in this election, then so be it. All we can do is play the cards we have got to the best our ability. With working class communities set to face vicious attacks we have elected representatives, and one with a national profile, embedded in those communities and a platform from which to resist those attacks whatever way we can. That platform is valuable, it surpasses anything else anybody else has on the radical left, and we fully intend to use it.
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Only the ignorant or hopelessly sectarian…fail to agree with Ger Francis.
Plus ca change.LikeLike
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thank goodness; fresh from masterminding Salma’s defeat Ger is back to keep us on the non-sectarian straight and narrow.
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A few more defeats like that – rather than the others the left suffered in the election – would be no bad thing. At least it provides a base to build from.
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If I recall correctly, I said somewhere before the election that diehards in Respect would use the fact that Respect would get a higher vote in its three target constiuencies than TUSC would anywhere as reason to believe that it had had a more succesful election,ignoring the way that Respect is targeted on one community and has a much softer appeal. Further,the appeal of the post-split Respect has been that of a bandwagon on the move, it is no use saying that it has a base in one council seat to build on when it has already shrunk from being pre-split a national organisation to one with activists in a few areas and prospects in fewer, now that its parliamentary success is in a past when it could rely on the greater strength of the SWP for canvassing and the fallout from Iraq to help it set the agenda, there is nothing but eternal optimism to think that things will turn around.
Ger Francis’ gripes about the Birmingham Mail are a bit rich from someone who said “the Labour campaign is in meltdown” shortly before Godsiff’s re-election. Things can be put the other way, if Salma can’t beat a man mired in the greatest expenses scandal that parliament has seen, who can she beat (as a Respect candidate)?TLC – I think I have quite noticeable differences with Neil Williams, not least over whether Respect could be made viable again, though he’s hardly likely to be encouraged by telling him to leave, but at least we are both capable of looking at the state of Respect with some analysis of reality.
As for Jesus, I’d have thought you were in greater need of one who can turn piss into whine.LikeLike
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You need to remember that most of the Respect people asserting its need to continue, Ger Francis, Rob Hoveman etc. are actually employed by it. They have a vested interest in its continuance that stands well above any broader political rationale.
This I think also explains their vociferous tone, only partly of course – Ger Francis has been like that for years no matter which organisation employed him. But these type of “political” bruisers earn their money by these antics.
Of course these people are by no means limited to Respect. The SWP fultimers who abandoned “the party” for it did so without blushing. Their switch was as easy as opening the post. All that had changed was the address.
What is needed is a completely different culture and objective from what has been common practice on the left, namely the creation of a left bureaucracy to “lead” in fact bully and direct the various memberships of these groups.
Time for socialism from below.LikeLike
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I’ve talked to loads of ESOL students, all Bengali and Somali Muslims, in Tower Hamlets this week – lots of different perspsectives on the election, which is good. Some are Respect supporters and they are disappointed, some angry or suspicious of the outcome, fair enough. But I’m pretty sure that those that are Respect supporters would be amazed to know that some people think that Abjol Miah is some sort of leftist – they would be shocked at this, actually. Their experience of Respect is that it’s a party that stands up for Muslims, opposes the zionists, yes, but also represents conservative Islamic currents. For example, the common criticisms of Rushnara Ali are that she doesn’t wear a headscarf, is a Muslim in name only, etc (milder forms of the garbage that’s found on some Islamic political websites). I don’t think they would recognise themselves in the debates going on here about where Respect fits into the left. I’m not saying there are no left/progressive Bengalis – just that in Tower Hamlets Respect tends not to be their political home, dealing as the Party does in conservative Muslim identity politics.
Sorry, Liam, I don’t mean to be a troll on your site – I’m just amazed that nobody’s talking about this. Hopefully you will in your conference.LikeLike
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Billj comforts himself greater heights of abstraction and Rachel D repeats the same old Andrew Gilligan style crap in support of Labour’s ‘progressive’ inner city colonialism.
As for Skidders… I was not ‘gripeing’ about the Bham Mail supporting the Lib Dems, merely pointing out a fact, and illustrating the size of the challenge we faced. And if all it took to win was to bang about Godsiff’s expenses the Lib Dem candidate would have got the seat. Labour won because the bounce dragged over the line Godsiff and many more like him. They were in meltdown. They were simply nowhere to be seen in the campaign. I had never seen so few Labour posters appear in house windows in any election campaign since we started fighting them. Ironically, the fact they were in meltdown, with a growing prospect of a Tory victory, served to revive Labour’s vote sufficient to raise the bar of victory. Plus they engaged in very dirty politics, with leaflets with photos of Salma and Nick Griffith and one designed to press anti-Shia buttons in the Muslim community. No doubt to Skidmark my criticizing those who seek to incite sectarian divisions is just another ‘gripe’. (Salma’s response to all this was impeccably principled and one her finest moments.)
Politics is fought in different terrains. We have chosen what is by far the most difficult one in Britain for the radical left: the electoral arena. It is inevitably a roller coast ride, especially for small parties under the current electoral system. By comparison, abstract propaganda is easy. Irrespective we will continue to use our platforms to defend some of the poorest working class communities in the country from the attacks coming their way. We will continue to challenge the neo-liberal consensus about the necessity of cuts, to defend multiculturalism, to oppose war, and to undermine Labour’s dirty colonial inner city operation, all the while trying to use what leverage we have to influence national political debate.
This is real politics. It is difficult exactly because it entails having to deal with political consciousness a million times removed from blogs like this. Respect has been remarkable in being able to engage on this terrain and punch way above our weight in the process. We are bruised, and heading into some difficult rounds, but we are still in the electoral fight at a time when no one else on the radical left is. That reality in itself should be enough to curb sectarian impulses. Those unable to control theirs have no useful role to play in building a left sufficient to meet the considerable challenges ahead.
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Billj is spot on regarding the likes of Ger Francis and Rob Hoveman and their vested interest in their jobs which blinds them to objectivity and makes them left bureaucrats. The same disorder afflicted the SSP in its downfall. Cheerio.
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Ger Francis – ” Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice:”
You are as usual full of contradictions. One might have thought that if Labour were in meltdown, with a growing prospect of a Tory victory, …the Lib Dem candidate would have got the seat./i>#No doubt to Skidmark my criticizing those who seek to incite sectarian divisions is just another ‘gripe’
Doubt everything would be a better motto for socialists. I think it is commendable to fight sectarian division, but I think you in particular answer Rachel D’s point by denying that the reason it is hard to see Respect’s base of support ever expanding outside the Muslim community is that it stands for that community rather than for radical left politics, and you have a penchant for accusing anyone who does so of Islamophobia. Perhaps Rachel D has some secret conspiratorial agenda, but what she says rings true, that Respect is neither presented or perceived as radical left, and so the comparisons you and Thornett make with the votes of those who openly presented a radical left platform to the electorate are not those of equivalents.I wouldn’t have thought that a party that has lost it’s MP and 90% of its councillors would retain such leverage. The only pull I would have thought you would have retained is that on a small section of the far left that sees your election results in advance of what they could achieve themselves and concludes wrongly that you are its best chance to have some influence.
Why “wrongly”? Because it rests on the assumption that Respect’s setbacks are epiphenomenal, that they will go away of their own accord or be overcome by an effort of will. In reality Galloway’s success in 2005 gave it a credibility at the polls it has now lost, your claims that the war in Gaza would provide the same boost as Iraq are now shown to be false, it’s shrinkage into a few Muslim communities is an inescapable truth, all that remains is the continuing unrestrained hype. Are the activists of an electorally based party really going to hang around when the celebrity leaders have gone Hollywood? It might be hoped the sensible amongst them would try instead to build a left sufficient to meet the considerable challenges ahead.LikeLike
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To be honest, I think the question of Respect is a relatively minor issue.
Alan Thornett was much too enthusiastic about the “Fair Votes” demonstration for electoral reform and didn’t dig enough under the surface.
I’m not very interested in examining “what if’s” regarding a Lib-Lab coalition and I just laugh off the idea of David Ellis in another thread that I was in the “Mandleson camp” for rejecting it.
Right now, the big issue is uniting all socialists and democrats against the appalling attempt at creating a 55% threshold for a vote of no confidence.
The Lib-Dems are showing their true anti-democratic phase and already, hundreds of thousands of people who voted for them feel betrayed.This rotten coalition can be brought down, but only if the left is rearmed with a realistic programme of Action to deal with the debt crisis and austerity. (Something BillJ has continually denied even existed!!)
Last night’s “Question time” showed how the mood of the public has already shifted. Mehdi Hasan, senior editor of the New Statesman wiped the floor with Heseltine and Hughes. Even Melanie Philips exposed the incoherence and lack of principle of the Tories and Liberals, albeit from an even more elitist and reactionary position!
There’s widespread disgust at the social composition of the new cabinet and its blather about “the national interest” must be continually exposed.
This coalition is defending class privilege and the biggest cuts need to be at the top, in the pay and perks of senior managers and tax evading corporations.
The real action in the coming period will be around the Labour leadership election, where an anti-cuts and anti-war candidate should be supported and the debate on replacing New Labour.
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Prianikoff talks like we can effect the outcome of the New Labour leadership election….we can’t!
Leftism is dead in New Labour, it is a party that will provide no vehicle for socialists in the short to medium term. We need to create a movement outside it.On Respect, BillJ and Eamonn Wright are just speculating as to what Ger Francis’s motivations are in defending Respect. I speculate that they actually believe in what they are doing, as hard as that concept might be for some to digest. They are a newish party, writing them off before they have a chance to live is ridiculous.
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Eamonn, how do you know whether he is spot on or not? What do you know about either me or Rob? Nothing. Best you stick to the bar stool republicanism.
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Ger your reputation travels far. Im probably just as physically active as you so cut the bar-room talk oh and im teetotal.
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This used to be an interesting site: now it’s more than ever an opportunity for a few people who describe themselves as leftists to vent their bile at each other, in endless rehashes of the same personalised insults. Writing gory crime thrillers might be a better way to let go of your anger .
There is a lot to be said for the Condem coalition compared to the supposed “progressive alliance”. The main elements pushing for the latter were Mandelson and Adonis, and the reason why is that they saw it as a way of bolstering the much weakened Blairite current in the LP and perhaps in the long run further marginalising the left.
Alan’s introduction mentioned the backdrop to the election being the bankruptcy of the Greek Government and the crisis in the Euro but he just left it there on the economy and focussed entirely on the politics. Politically, the results for the left were dire. And it ‘s not primarily down to the divisions or the voting system.
Depite the siren warnings of the Tories that “the markets” would not tolerate any delay in putting them into government, coalition or no, the market bounce came after the EU guaranteed the debts of governments to bondholders – in many cases the very people whose speculation caused the crisis in the first place. People can see the crisis – long predicted by the left – unfold in front of their eyes.
In the words of that vulgar Marxist Bill Clinton, “it’s the economy, stupid”. Labour is a war-mongering party in hock to the City bankers, but there was no meltdown in their vote because a sufficient number of electors feared the Tories more. Yes, we know they are deluding themselves but what alternative is the left putting forward other than anti-war and anti-cuts and change the voting system.
The battle for the Labour leadership will be interesting given that many MP’s are calling for a return to social democratic politics in the belief that the next election, whenever it comes, will be a traditional straight fight between Labour and Tory in which the left could well be squeezed again. While we would clearly prefer the defeat of the Blairites in any contest with the “social democrats” we shouldn’t take up the invitation to pile into the LP to take part in the battle. The “social democrats” are hollowed out and the Blairites are simply Liberals in disguise.
At least in the previous deep crisis in the 1970’s there was an Alternative Economic Strategy or Nationalise the top 100 companies. Flawed, I agree, but at least an argument about the route from here to somewhere better. The serious left needs to come up with more than sloganising and moralising about being anti-racist, being green or anti-war – and especially the minutiae of a very poor electoral outcome.
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“Prianikoff talks like we can effect the outcome of the New Labour leadership election….we can’t! ”
The Unions can affect the outcome. CLP members can affect the outcome. I don’t necessariy suggest “piling in to the LP”, which would be regarded with suspicion. But there’s no reason why union members shouldn’t hold a LP card and why Students shouldn’t be joining.
What’s needed is a socialist candidate in the leadership election to act as a pole of attraction, standing on an anti-cuts, anti war platform.
Unions need to draw up an action programme against the cuts right away.
The economic situation is potentially far worse than the 1970’s.LikeLike
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prianikoff,
I agree that the situation faced by workers is very serious and that a reduction of living standards is on the way. Everytime I switch on the TV some fuckwit with a posh accent is talking about people ‘living beyond their means’.
Problem is that the New Labour project has cut the balls off the left and heralded a US style political culture. I don’t think some on the left have quite understood the transformation that has taken place in New Labour, I believe it is a barrier to progress and not the hope for it. Unions need to get out of New Labour and start a new movement but I fear these attacks on workers will be successful and I blame New Labour for that and their lackeys in the unions.
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I’ve got a lot of sympathy with Padraic’s comment about tiresome and repetitive personal abuse. It’s not part of the poltical culture I’m most acquainted with and it demeans and depresses in equal measure.
If you want to be rude to people you don’t know terribly well go and sit at a bus stop where at least you’ll get some fresh air.
I’m going to start cutting wilfully provocative remarks with use words like “hypocrite”, “ignorant”, “idiot” about other contributors.
On Rachel’s point I think Respect has struggled with two long term internal problems.
One is that at crucial moments important decisions are made by very narrow groups of people. This may be quick but it’s not a sustainable long term internal culture.
The second is that it has shied away from facilitating some of the discussions to which she refers. Discussion of politics and politics in key parts of the country has always come a poor third or fourth place to other things. Unless an organisation’s members get into the habit of thrashing out what the think among themselves they aren’t really participating in it.
These are not new points but they will probably be on the table again in the post election discussion.
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Liam – Discussion of politics and politics in key parts of the country
Did you mean to repeat yourself?It is good that you can identify areas of problem, but without being more specific I think you may find that your colleagues will regard such thoughts as truisms which can be supported in principle and ignored in practice. Better than Alan Thornett’s approach that Respect may have some (still unidentified) problems, but the rest of the left has more to worry about. And the question of whether Respect has any long-term viability, and whether left activists would be better employed in other ways isn’t even addressed. Perhaps that will come in time.
Billj’s point about full-timers is an interesting one, but he doesn’t really providethe logic that it is a responisble cause. I do think that the claim of the former SWP Respect officals that they were partisans of the SWP right up to the point where they were expelled showed some deficiency in the SWP of the time, predicated as it was on the belief that such a claim might be believed, but if they had not been SWP fulltimers the pull of the Respect positions might if anything have been stronger. The SWP does seem to have dealt with moving on from the Rees-German leadership, so perhaps the cult of the fulltimer is not such a problem.
On the Labour Party, I know that the media has been declaring the demise of New Labour because its chief architects have moved on, but the systematic replacement of retiring MPs with New Labour clones is likely to mean that any noticeable shift to the left may wait until any rise in the class struggle due to the cuts provides an alternative to the New Labour vision, for the moment a contiuation of the policy of being slightly less harsh with the cuts, while outflanking the coalition to the right on looking for scapegoats may well been seen as the route back into power once the governing parties have to make themselves unpopular. I don’t see any move of the left into the Labour Party right now helping to shift that.
LIam – my apologies if I’ve helped to lower the tone at all. Ido try and follow something of the Golden Rule, do unto others as they do unto you, but as Tony Cliff used to say about fighting a dog (in an analogy of the USSR), fight for long enough and it’s hard to tell one from the other.
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‘Respect’s..stands for (the Muslim) community rather than for radical left politics’
That argument only holds water for the politically prejudiced, and even then by ignoring the totality of George’s , Salma’s and Respect’s public statements and focusing instead on our concern to tackle islamaphobia, the pernicious form of racism today. (Something any half decent socialist would commend us for).
‘It might be hoped the sensible amongst them would try instead to build a left sufficient to meet the considerable challenges ahead.’
And that would be what exactly? What organization are you in that might serve as a template?
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should read: ‘the most pernicious form of racism today’
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The argument holds water if you ask why Respect had so much more support in a few Muslim communities than it did elsewhere. Is it because those Muslim communities are hotbeds of radical revolution, or because Respect has adapted to its milieu? I think the totality of Respect’s words and deeds point towards the latter, and some public statements designed to reassure George’s favourite Trotskyists that they are still welcome aren’t as significant as Respect’s focus on a community-based electoral strategy, while ignoring the industrial struggle as a party (except for the bigging up of Jerry Hicks).
What organisational template would serve better? Maybe something with socialist or worker in the title, rather than just part of an acronymic afterthought.
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‘ask why Respect had so much more support in a few Muslim communities than it did elsewhere.’
Old argument and a very old but obvious answer. The break with Labour was more pronounced in Muslim community because of the impact of the ‘war on terror’. Where have you been living to miss that one? Nobody in Respect has ever claimed that Muslim communities were ‘hotbeds of radical revolution’. This is Daily Mail talk. If the Muslim communities of Birmingham are anything to go by, consciousness is very diverse. The most advanced have a lot of anger about war and Islamaphobia plus old Labour instincts. Nearly everyone has a sense of pessimism (which is partially linked with the steady decline of the anti-war movement) about their ability to influence political events.
As for your change about our supposed ‘adapting to our milieu’ (by which I presume you mean pandered to reactionary of conservative pressures), don’t just make the charge, substantiate it. And please do in relation to our practice in Birmingham that illustrates how we have watered down our opposition to war, neo-liberalism and racism.
As for alternatives, the best you can come up with is a name change (this is so childishly naïve and one trounced by the historical record, as if simply adding ‘worker’ or ‘socialist’ would be some panacea), and a turn to ‘industrial struggle’. You appear to counter pose an ‘industrial electoral strategy’ to a ‘community electoral strategy’?!!? I am intrigued to know what this actually would mean in practice. Please explain to me how we should have waged our campaign differently if only we had followed your ‘industrial electoral strategy’? Other than use our elected positions to support workers in struggle, (and Salma was the only political figure of note person in Birmingham to state in her general election material that she opposed the council job cuts) what exactly are we supposed to do?
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Consciousness is very diverse, yet a large part of the Muslim community according to your claims backed Salma (though she was the only councillor re-elected). Is there a wide span of consciousness in that community? Is there a class divide? If there is, then a marxist analysis would suggest that a party hoping to retain such support (when it has little elsewhere) will either rely on claims that its leader is so charismatic as to be able to drag the most conservative along, with all the dangers of relying on the power of leaders that brings, or will seek to minimise its differences with the more conservative elements.
Respect when it was launched was intended to bring Muslims into contact with socialist politics by first appealing to them with an anti-imperialism that reflected the impact of the War on Terror. Now it seems the train tracks run the other way too.I wasn’t suggesting a name change, I was suggesting that a differnent organisation might be more appropriate for socialists. And I wasn’t calling for an “industrial electoral strategy”, but that the industrial struggle – which Respect as a party pretty much stands aside from, not even apparently having a policygetting its members to be active in unions, so that all it does at best is to act as a cheerleader – is more important for socialists than the community electoral strategy that Respect employs.
Oh and you’ve played the Islamphobia card twice on this thread – it’s good that real Islamaphobia is challenged,but you seem to be a mirror image of the AWL or Harry’s Place who claim any attack on them is anti-semitism – and the last paragraph of your last comment but one was an ad hominem attack. Hopefully if we are going to live in the era of Liam’s New Moderation (webwise, hopefully not politics-wise) such stuff will cease.
Oh and given that we used to be told that Galloway’s Talksport show was one that drew 800000 to twice-weekly amazing displays of socialist oratory, wouldn’t it have been pertinent for Thornett to mention its cancellation as a major reason for thinking that Respect was going backwards rather than forwards? Not to mention the hair of Tower Hamlets Respect quitting, though that did come after Thornett spoke, I think. I’ve said a number of times that what makes Respect’s perspectives about its own future hard to credit is the way it only ever acknowledges success.Socialists within it would do well to look reality in the face if they don’t want to be the last aboard a sinking ship.
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Sorry “chair” of TH Respect. The hair I imagine will already have been torn out.
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I have not claimed anything you have written in this exchange is Islamaphobic.
It is not true that we don’t acknowledge weaknesses. Indeed, I am someone who has said openly we are a organization with a national profile rather than a national organization.
I asked you to outline exactly what an industrial strategy should be, you didn’t, except to claim we ‘stand aside’ from trade union issues, which is a demonstrably false charge.
‘Is there a class divide in the muslim community?’
Is this a serious question? Of course there is a class divide and our base is overwhelmingly among the poorest of the Muslim community. But all Muslims, irrespective of their view of their status, actual or imagined, suffer from racis and react to it. They have a particular experience of race and class, a double whammy of exploitation and oppression, and that massively impacts on their consciousness. It is a factor in people of differing class backgrounds supporting Respect. Our strident anti-racism has a cross-class appeal, (although the less so among the more middle class of the muslim community), likewise with our principled anti-war stance. Perhaps if you have some experience of racism you might understand the way it acts as a unifier on those communities on the receiving end of it. What is difficult about that to understand?
You want to set up a new organization. Fine. Good luck. Now go ahead and do it.
I asked you to substantiate your claim of Salma pandering to conservative forces. You can’t because it is simply a charge without any substance. The truth is the complete opposite in fact. End of story.
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I think we’ve gone as far as we can with this line of discussion.
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skidmarx I think you make some very valid points most of which I agree with which may surprise you.
On the Respect National Council I once raised the issue of Respect spending more time organising at the AGM of key unions to try and develop our presence and politics (Socialism) and support with trade unionists. It was rather a shock to me (maybe i was a little neive) that the person opposing this policy was George Galloway who suggested we did not have the time or resources or some such arguement. (I am sure Alan Thornett will remember this). I think it was from that momement that I started to have serious concerns about Respects future and where some wanted to take it.
The split with the SWP was not welcomed by all in Respect (as it is now) whatever some may say.It was at this point Respect lost its Socialist heart in my opinion and has never recovered (the SWP must also accept some responsibilty for this failing to talk to and carry with them the “independent” Socialists in Respect). In my own branch it was the beginning of the end with the branch being split 50/50 and old friendships going back years broken up. Yes some of us have paid a high personal/political price for Respects current postition with no Left of Labour Socialist voice left in my town. Our previous pre split Respect branch while small did work a did work well and gave us a voice in my town that no longer exists.
Its good that this blog has had some serious debate on Respect which is more than I can say for Socalist Unity (where personal insults have been allowed) and Liam I think the discussion should continue if its done in a comradley way.
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“Now it seems the train tracks run the other way too.”
Poor old skidmarx exposes his lack of understanding of engineering as well as of politics.
Train tracks always run both ways.
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‘On the Respect National Council I once raised the issue of Respect spending more time organising at the AGM of key unions’
Spending more time doing what, exactly? What strategy did you propose? I have no recollection of one.
And fair enough, if you now think you were wrong to break with the SWP and they were right after all, so be it, though the crass AWL style position advocated by skidmark is one that most SWP members would have no truck with.
AD HOMINEN STUFF DELETED -LIAM
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It seems to me that there is a shorthand that villifies socialists in Respect, which Neil exemplifies in his comment that it ‘lost its Socialist heart’ (not sure about the capitalization either).
My interepretation of the debate of the last year has been one between those that believe that if we nail our socialist colours to the mast more emphatically, this will be a receipe for success, and those that believe that to relate to a mass audience, it is necessary to speak in the language of the audience rather than demanding they speak in yours.
The tendency to pretend that there are those of us more pure of ‘Socialist heart’ than others, that are more worthy than others, is very tiresome and reflects the political weakness of the left – it is a major part of the reason why it gets such a small audience. If you do not believe me, try analyzing the election results for all of the ‘socialist’ projects since 1997 and how they compare to Respect’s results.
Of course, there are then the likes of ‘chess player’ who simply defend their argument with a circularity – that Respect is therefore guilty of accommodation and pandering. The purity of isolation!
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Neil Williams – I’m not that surprised, although we’ve obviously differed for a long while as to whether Respect is a viable project, we both start from looking at it as it is, not as some would wish it to be.
I think that perhaps the split was inevitable, the SWP seeing it as a populist adjunct to its main activities, Galloway resenting the control they had and feeling it could be as electorally succesful if not more so without them. Whether John Rees was incompetent is hard to judge on the word of his enemies, certainly what convinced me, from an initially non-partisan stance, that the SWP was in the right was the failure to put forward an adquate justification for their actions by the other side, from Kevin Ovenden’s letter on his expulsion to the carving out of the SWP at a Bristol Respect meeting a few months later. Plus the abusive comments daily on socialist unity against the SWP or anyone assocaited with it didn’t help convince me there was a case for the other side; I’m sorry you’re now having to go through that experience of discovering how sectarian many Respect supporters are.There does seem to have been a faliure on the part of Socialist Resistance to acknowledge that there was another side to the story, and that those not already pathological about the SWP might not welcome the split or automatically blame the SWP for it, as they seem to have done, leading to an occaional acceptance that Respect was weakened by the split, but with the blame already attached elsewhere not willing to address the question of whether it would cause any fundamental weakness.As to everyone else, I think perhaps LIam is correct above (and note to Liam – I think we’ve had a couple of exchanges already about stuff like what is Chris C’s last paragraph).
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Neil
AD HOMINEN STUFF DELETED BY MYSELF PRIOR TO HITTING “SUBMIT COMMENT” BUTTON
(Liam – i just thought I would save you the time)
this does seem to have degenerated into a ritual excange of insults.
We disagree, the only way to see who is right is by putting the different perspectives into practice.
I draw my own conclusions from TUSC’s results of whether Reespect would have been stronger had we gone down that route.
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Well both perspectives were put into practice and both resulted in zero MP’s. I’d call that a 0-0 draw.
Those in respect kept telling us that the point of it was an electoral coalition to combat new labour- in that it has spectacularly failed. In point of fact, when the labour party got it’s act together and tried to fight for every vote in every winnable seat it was easily able to brush Respect aside.
At least the old socialist alliance had the benefit of actually having some sort of concept of patiently building up local groups across the whole country and using candidatures to cohere a set of supporters round a clear set of socialist ideas. Obviously this is a well trodden argument that we probably don’t need to rehash here.
Unless the SWP were playing some particularly cunning game to rescue the party from electoralists, opportunists, shysters and idiots, then their lukewarm turn to TUSC has to be some sort of admission that ending SA in favour of sucking up to Galloway was a mistake. Socialist Resistance it seems is also quite a long way down that path of escaping from respect too.
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Or that Respect was worth a try. The mistake seems more to have thought that they could win the battle to retain the organisation once the split occured.
A 0-0 draw? Well TUSC weren’t expecting spectacular results, and seem in the main to have ambitions that go beyond the electoral, while Respect has insisted since the split that its councillors in Birmingham and Tower Hamlets show it as a real electoral force, the derailing of the bandwagon is bound to mean a sharp drop in its ability to attract activists. Hopefully we’ll see the forces in TUSC continue, but can the same really be expected of Respect?
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Videos of Alan speaking in Birmingham last tuesday.
Same topic, slightly updated perspective.LikeLike
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Is there a report from the Respec National Council – anyone? (or have i got the date wrong?)
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Is there a report from the Respec National Council – anyone? (or have i got the date wrong?)
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Cheers for the questions, avid reader. The answers are ‘yes and no’. A report is being published tomorrow.
It was an excellent meeting well attended with a strong and honest debate. That’s called the trailer….
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Liam redux 
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