As the season of “Two World Wars and one World Cup” draws inexorably closer there has been a little bit of discussion about how it’s ok for socialists to be rampant patriots when it involves watching a bunch of men kicking a ball around. In the interests of sociological research here’s a little poll.
As the season of “Two World Wars and one World Cup” draws inexorably closer there has been a little bit of discussion about how it’s ok for socialists to be rampant patriots when it involves watching a bunch of men kicking a ball around.
In the interests of sociological research here’s a little poll.
I was torn between options 1,2,3,4 and 6.. Although one at least one level the whole spectacle makes me feel bored, angry, depressed and so on (http://www.waronwant.org/overseas-work/south-africa-and-the-2010-world-cup), on another I do appreciate that it is a shared experience which generates genuine excitement and opens up all sorts of vital questions, about the role of sport and entertainment, the power of corporations and the media, international and interurban competition, patriotism, inequalities between different parts of the world and so on. I actually quite enjoy explaining to people that I don’t want ‘my’ own country to win, for all sorts of reasons, not merely because I’m a curmugeon.
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I love the world cup and will be a passionate supporter of the England team. I can tell the difference between football, which is a ball game, and war and imperealism. I think other people can as well.
I’ve watched every England world cup game with my mate Steve Rose since we watched the 86 competition together to cheers ourselves up after the miner’s defeat. We’d both been trade unionists working together to support the miners’ in Bristol. We feel that England have a good chance of the making the semi-finals. That Cappella has proved an excellent coach. That Rooney is the only England player that might make a world eleven but that our exceptional wide pace in Lennon and Walcott might trouble any team.
Arguably, football has done more to combat racism and build links between workers across national boundaries than the left has in the last 30 years.
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This is a complete red herring I think. Supporting a football team is nothing necessarily to do with patriotism.
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Comment 1 by Rwillmsen highlights the flaw with this poll. I could and would wanted to have picked multiple options.
I also agree with Will Brown and Jason. I will be down the pub supporting England but that doesn’t prevent me from being on stop the war marches or being a socialist.
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In relation to the comment that supporting a national football team has nothing to do with patriotism: in that case, what manifestations of patriotism exist these days? Do you think that most people walking round in England shirts would agree with you on this point? I suspect they would not. Personally when I think of the England football these days the first image that springs to mind is Sun headlines. This is not to suggest that supporting a national football team automatically puts you in a rightwing camp (and actually I would argue that in many other countries, Brazil being an obvious example, support for the national team has a totally different set of associations). In this country it puts you in the company of some extremely unpleasant elements and personally I feel no desire to have any association with the England team, and I resent the implication (not here I hasten to add) that I am in some way obliged to show some sign of ‘support’
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*England team, not England football, doh!
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Having woken up this morning to discover that some dick has hoisted the Union Jack in his garden at the back of my house, to accompany the st george flag he hoisted last week, I am (in an appropriately Queen Victoria stylee) NOT AMUSED and am already totally fucked off with this Engerland rubbish – and the bloody competition hasn’t even started yet. Still, I’m sure my neighbour will be won over by the arguments of Progressive Patriotism (patent pending) and will be applying to join Respect any day now…
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my only experience direct experience of actual england fans(ie those that go to matches) was that they probably wouldn’t be allowed on EDL or BNP platforms as spokespeople because they were so obnoxious and right-wing.
Of course I realise that those fans going round Leeds on that particular day harassing woung women, students, goths, black families and generally making the city centre an inhospitable place were a lot more obvious than the nice progressive patriots that we are led to believe that the majority of fans are. The only thing it comes close to resembling is the atmosphere created when the orangemen have their march.
But here’s my real beef with supporting England at football; when you pick a club team to support it is based on a more or less irrational set of circumstances such as where you live, where you were born, who’s doing well at the time you take up football, which players you like, who your parents and friends support etc, which all combine to give you a team which you then follow week-in week-out for your lifetime.
You’ll see them win about half of their matches and draw or lose the rest, every 5-10 years the elation of getting promoted, beating a major rival, a big match at wembley, or even winning a trophy will make up for the frustration of not quite getting there the rest of the time etc etc.
With national teams it’s almost the opposite- there’s huge peer and public pressure to support the team from the country you live in, and mostly you’ll led by the mass media to believe that your country will win but will find out that (unless you live in brazil, germany or italy) most often they don’t.
So why bother supporting a team just because you live in that country, when you could pick any team to support and thereby be bypassed by all the media hype and also not have to associate with drunken tossers harrassing people because they are different.
In my neck of the woods one of the best World Cups was USA where England didn’t qualify and Ireland did- there was a really great atmosphere of people supporting Ireland(I think the Guardian printed an honourary Irish passport as the cover of the world cup guide that year) without being stupid or it descending into nationalism.
Our car has the argentina and germany flags on it (until they get snapped off by some england fan) to represent the teams that we support.
You can set yourself free from nationalism by supporting someone other than England, so why not go ahead and do it.
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btw.
I forgot to add that since England won’t win, you can spare yourself the dissapointment up front by neglecting to support them.
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martin – so pessimistic. They might always get some goals if they offer fast-track citizenship to a couple of Japanese centre-backs.
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I have a real dilema all my teams are in the same group – Brasil (dad), Portugal (mum), Ivory Coast (sol bamba plays for Hibs) and North Korea (deformed workers state). At least two will get through though! I’m also supporting Englnad because here in Scotland there is a lot of anti-English support for anyone who plays England. So in Scotland the anti-chauvanistic position and one that offers solidarity with workers in England is to back England – I am go to have a hell of a hard time though!
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Martin O and Bristolred
Here we go again, the far left replicating the stereotypes of England fans that are served up by the likes of Daily Mail ad Daly Telegraph columnists.
Mark P
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@Raphie, Ha ! We’ll get that announced on the tannoy at Easter Road; “This summer Raphie supported Ingerland in the World Cup”.
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Like I said, the one time in my lifetime that I was anywhere near travelling england fans was when they played at elland road (against Italy 2002 or something). Large groups of pissed up southerners roamed the city centre harrassing locals while others holed up in pubs singing racist songs and generally making other people lifes a misery- it’s the only time I’ve felt genuinely under threat in the city since the fascists used to organise in the 80s and early 90s. The only similar occurence happens every year when there is an orange parade through the city.
Part of me had believed the hype that england fans had undergone the same process of change that has happened at club teams- nothing was further from the truth that day.
So yes Mark P- not wanting to associate with racists does make me the same as a daily mail columnist in your eyes- guilt as charged.
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Here we go again, Marky P still in denial…
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rwillsmen “In relation to the comment that supporting a national football team has nothing to do with patriotism: in that case, what manifestations of patriotism exist these days? Do you think that most people walking round in England shirts would agree with you on this point? I suspect they would not. Personally when I think of the England football these days the first image that springs to mind is Sun headlines. This is not to suggest that supporting a national football team automatically puts you in a rightwing camp ”
I said, “Supporting a football team is nothing necessarily to do with patriotism”. This is not to deny that some football fans may be racist or xenophobic but it’s not the large majority in my opinion. Part of fighting the xenophobia of the minority is to not automatically condemn supporting England or associating left wing politics with puritanism. Of course there’s nothing wrong with supporting any team or indeed no team, Martin but it is somewhat ridicualous to conflate supporting England with necessarily being racist.
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Martin O first. So the one and only time you’ve witnessed an England crowd was in March 2002, eight years ago and you base your denunciatons and stereotypes entirely on that?
OK so you don’t follow England fan culture very closely. If you had you would be aware of huge changes since 2002, none of these have come by accident but by hard work of fan activism, including a very good Yorkshire England Supporters Group.
As for not wanting to associate with racists, neither do I you plonker, but unlike you we get our hands dirty ensuring the racists that do still follow England re isolated and marginalised. You would appear to want to leave them to have the England support to poison all to themselves.
No Bristolred, Not in denial, but doing something about the racism, xenophboia and hooliganism that once stained England’s support and is now actively congested. You’re the one in denial I’m afraid stuck with a one-dimensional view of what anybody supporting England represtents.
Mark P
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“…hooliganism that once stained England’s support and is now actively congested”
Contested rather than congested, surely? As it happens, I don’t have the view you impute to me of “anybody supporting England”, I simply object to your monomaniacal, prescriptive, moralistic, self-congratulatory, tiresome puffed-up patriotism.
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I prefer to call it soft patriotism but I get the impression you disagree. Its probably best to leave it at that.
Mark P
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Mark P perhaps you should join your england supporting mates in the EDL and congest/contest that arena too. Get you hands dirty turning them away from racism and back to your pure patriotism/nationalism.
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Liam redux 
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