imageTom: None of these front anti-cuts campaigns seem to be making much of an impact on the broad masses outside the Central Committees that invented them.

Dick: Maybe not but I’m always impressed by the way the political full timers can remember which hat they’re wearing when they are speaking on behalf of this week’s pet project.

Harriet: It can be a bit hard to tell the difference between them, like blind tasting Coke and Pepsi.

Tom: It looks to me like we are going to see lots of locally based campaigns springing up all over the place.

Dick: Our kids’ school is thinking of becoming an academy.

Harriet: My mum went to a meeting last night about a plan to shut the library she uses.

Tom: The tough thing about that is that it’s quite hard to connect all these different experiences.

Dick: It’s not just the experiences. It’s the people.

Harriet: That’s right. There’ll be all these councillors, trade unionists and activists in working class communities fighting on all sorts of things.

Tom: How about launching an organisation to pull them all together?

Dick: Why would they want to be part of something they’ve never heard of?

Harriet: Fair point. How about seeing if anyone is interested in a paper that they could use to share their experiences; find out about what’s being happening in other places and maybe get some of the economic and political arguments they’ll need.

Tom: You’d need someone to produce it.

Dick: And the one thing the British far left does not need is another paper.

Harriet: It depends what type of paper. It could be as broad as you wanted. Labour Party people, some of the Marxist left, individual activists, Green Party members, trade unionists and health campaigners.

Tom: Well you can’t have it too broad. They’d have to agree on some things.

Dick: Yeah, that’s right. They’d all have to be in favour or grass roots action and be anti-monarchist. Otherwise you’re accommodating to the union bureaucracy and feudalism.

Harriet: Maybe looking for points of agreement might be a more useful way to start.

Tom: Agreement?

Dick: Eh? That’s bonkers.

Harriet: Well let’s look at what your absolute bottom line is. It could be opposition to cuts and job losses; no worsening of pensions; opposition to the wars; action on climate change standing up to Islamophobia – that sort of thing.

Tom: Yeah but what about the stuff we disagree on?

Dick: That’s right. The Labour Party is just like the Tories. Lot’s of us want to replace it with something better. You can’t expect us to bite our tongues can you?

Harriet: Heaven forefend! There’d be nothing to stop organisations producing their own pamphlets and websites. You could have regular debates on some of the stuff we disagree on. It just seems to me that the socialist and anti-capitalist left would have more of an impact if people could see it working together instead of constantly launching its own Mickey Mouse stunts that anyone born the day before yesterday can see through.

Tom: But how would you guarantee that no one takes control of this paper?

Dick: There would probably be all sorts of stitch ups and secret deals. That the way the left usually does things.

Harriet: You’ve got no guarantees. Some form of democratically controlled editorial board might work but ultimately you’re relying on people and organisations to unlearn some bad habits.

Tom: Ah. There’s your problem.

Dick: He’s right. It would never work.

Harriet: Oh well, it was just a thought. Is it my round?

26 responses to “Conversation in a pub”

  1. Right so a newspaper, not united around any positive vision of anything in particular but around a list of things the people creating it are opposed to.

    And bland enough to keep some scattering of the rump Labour left, a few Greens and various Marxist groups on board. In particular although it would by necessity largely be sold by the revolutionary socialists involved, the politics would have to be limted to things that wouldn’t upset the least radical (ie Labour or Green) elements involved.

    And this would be of use to who exactly? And how exactly? Would it be less boring than the Respect Paper, which had politics not a million miles from those you talk about above and which also was largely produced and sold by the revolutionary elements involved but limited its politics to suit the least radical?

    If the allegedly chronic sectarianism of the socialist left is all that’s preventing us from putting scarce resources into that sort of project, then apparently there’s more to be said for chronic sectarianism than I’d previously imagined.

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  2. Sounds exciting especialy the exploring agreement bit

    You could call the Paper “The Dogs Bolloxs”

    The Workers Vuvuzela

    The Socialist Constructivist

    Post Socialist Worker?

    If it has a great Green influence how about

    The Mutant

    or

    The Big Heat

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  3. OK, Liam, having sidled up to the bar and said ‘I’ll get these’ what did you then advise Tom, Dick and Harriet to do?

    Seems to me that rather than waiting for others to get the ball rolling, someone needs to take a lead. So, Tom should get out his John Bull printing set whilst Harriet interviews her mum about the library campaign and sends Dick off to set up a Blog to collate stories…

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  4. A “John Bull” printing set, eh? Comrade Rob has obviously fallen victim to the siren song of progressive patriotism…

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  5. The problem with the sects is that they don’t have a marxist programme and they hide their `marxist’ analysis behind these wretched fronts based on the lowest common denominator which proves that every sectarian is in practise an opportunist. The converse is true also. Every opportunist is a hopeless sectarian. Take one of the most opportunist trends in the labour movement in recent times, second only perhaps to Staolinism: New Labourism. It is the most abjectly opportunist programme for subordinating the working class to middle class sensibilities and interests and yet it is a tiny and ultra insular sect (a genuine party within a party) that came together on the basis of bureaucratic priveleges and background around an idealist, religiously guarded, pseudo phiolosophy to organise what was essentially a coup when John Smith died. A coup facilitated by the abject wankiness of the left and its readiness to ditch its beliefs at the drop of a hat.

    Anin: `Post Socialist Worker’ . Very good.

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  6. I agree with robm. It’s no good constantly complaining about the SWP and SP (cos that’s who this stuff is aimed at imo), if you think you can do better get on with it.

    On the one hand I think you’d have a very hard time, cos in order to build up the kind of networks that would be needed you need to have already built what can only be described as a party already.

    On the other hand with the internet it would be easy to set up a website along the lines suggested. If someone, somewhere was willing to do the (considerable) work daily, a website could be run which is open to anyone and everyone to send short reports on local struggles to. Content could also be built by linking to all the articles on the net which are reports of struggles, wherever they initially appeared (the left press, campaign websites, blogs wherever). You could group stuff geographically.

    Oh and definitley call it ‘the dogs bollox’… .

    Also for the resord i think some of the Right to work demos definitely reached a ‘credible’ critical mass. Sheffield in particular. So stop sniping.

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  7. `Also for the resord i think some of the Right to work demos definitely reached a ‘credible’ critical mass. Sheffield in particular. So stop sniping.’

    I’m afraid you’ve built nothing of any value there. What is the programme of this `Right to Work’ front? Come to think of it, what is the programme of the SWP on the matter of work or anything else come to that? The SWP is a major obstacle and barrier between the working class and marxism and these fronts are part of the problem not the solution. If these fronts had a Marxist programme it would be something.

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  8. “I agree with robm” thank you, but I doubt it!

    “in order to build up the kind of networks that would be needed you need to have already built what can only be described as a party already.”

    It would be great if such a party existed, but it doesn’t. However, loose, informal and sometimes very new local networks do exist. The point under discussion is how to use a publication to try to bring those networks together- into a dialogue with each other and begin to strengthen their effectiveness…

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  9. I agree in the sense that an ounce of practice is worth a ton of internet back seat driving.

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  10. You don’t build united fronts you demand them.

    `It would be great if such a party existed, but it doesn’t. However, loose, informal and sometimes very new local networks do exist. The point under discussion is how to use a publication to try to bring those networks together- into a dialogue with each other and begin to strengthen their effectiveness…’

    Which, arrogantly is what the SWP claims to be: the the voice of the united front immediately turning the `united front’ into a front but worse a front without a marxist policy.

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  11. Yes David

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  12. robm,

    Well I was once in such a network- the welfare state network- we had a paper and everything, but ended up just becoming a newspaper and then eventually, just the newspaper of the AWL because the people who were then Socialist Outlook pulled out -they didn’t like selling a paper that contained articles they disagreed with. Don’t know what they are doing now.

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  13. An interesting idea but sadly predictable responses. Probably worth pulling apart different reasons to reject:

    1) The – what we need is just more explicit ‘Marxist’ program – response.

    2) The – Revo’ Socialist, we need ‘united fronts’ but ‘Marxists’ need to keep their party as primary organisational/agitational pole of attraction – response,

    3) The – its too loose and thus it could neither hold together not motivate people – response

    Now we can, sorry David, probably ignore (1).

    Number (2) on the other hand needs, I think, to be really tackled. There seems to be a fear among some on the left that if something radical but broad is built with a strong identity of its own, then this would threaten the identity of the Revo’ party.

    So, for example, SWP members wouldn’t want to give up the practice of flooding demo’s with their branded placards and concentrating on selling their paper because they fear that this would mean that they couldn’t be a pole of attraction. Further they fear that if they compromise their identity the broader project might act as a bridge away from revolutionary politics.

    Now I think that there are obvious problems with number (2). Chief among them is that it hasn’t worked. None of the revolutionary groups have grown, and, if we discount the swing door student members, the largest SWP and SP have probably slightly stunk.

    However, number (3) probably is a valid concern. No broad campaign has succeeded in turning into a mass organisation with a distinct identity of its own in this country. that said, in other countries we have examples like ATTAC.

    One other issue we probably need to get to grips with is inclusion of Labour party members. I’m not talking about the couple of really left labour types but the mainstream Labourites who are now jumping on the opposition wagaon.

    I saw a stall in Sheff’ outside town hall that I at first took to be Revo’ Left, but in fact turned out to be Labour party campaigning against the dropping of the Forgemasters loan.

    How do we relate to these people? I agree we shouldn’t exclude them (I think we will soon find out that they have more social weight then us so it will be question of them excluding us) but we also don’t want to support their hypocrisy?

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  14. `How do we relate to these people? I agree we shouldn’t exclude them (I think we will soon find out that they have more social weight then us so it will be question of them excluding us) but we also don’t want to support their hypocrisy?’

    But Joseph, who are you to say who should and should not be included and why do you think Labour lefts should have anything to do with you? But to be honest, marxists who don’t put forward a marxist programme are the true hypocrites and irrelevant. The marxist programme is our poll of attraction along with the exemplary way we try to make it the programme of the entire class. Unfortunately your reaction to sectarianism is not to drop sectarianism but to drop marxism in favour of some opportunist form of pluralism.

    Swoppie: `Yes David’.

    That is about the level of seriousness you bring to any debate.

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  15. By the way swoppie give us a flavour of the SWP programme developed to confront the current crisis. Seriously.

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  16. David – I don’t quite understand your point “who are you to say who should and should not be included and why do you think Labour lefts should have anything to do with you?”

    I’m nobody important. But we, i.e. the Marxist left, are people who go out and build things. Collectively we have a right to decide who we want to work with. Some decisions are obviously right, we wouldn’t work with the B.N.P in a campaign. Other’s are debatable, should we work with the labour middle ground. What’s wrong with that?

    I did also say that they (Labourites) may have more social weight so it may be a question of whether they want to work with us rather then vice versa. On that, we can already see the Labour left (and the Labour middle) reaching out to the radical left. In my locality this is happening with a demo planned for tomorrow at the local swimming pool over the ConDem cuts to free swimming.

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  17. Martin,
    I’m sorry people find it difficult to have any kind of extended relationship with the AWL but I am not sure what the answer is- either to exclude the AWL from things in advance, to avoid what seems like inevitable unpleasantness, or to impose stringent conditions on the AWLs participation in the first place. What do you suggest?

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  18. `i.e. the Marxist left, are people who go out and build things.’

    A marxist left hopefully but unfortunately more often than not they simply build a pale and opportunist imitation of reformism. A united front is designed to expose the treacherous and attract the principled to a marxist programme. It is not about the Lowest Common Denominator and the marxist adapting to opportunist forces.

    The best thing about the Respect UF/Coalition was that is did a fantastic job exposing the political and philosphical bankruptcy of the sectarian SWP. They utterly failed to stick to the practical agreement to get anti-war MPs elected to Parliament and yet still failed to develop and propagate and independent marxist programme within the front.

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  19. As Marxism does not maintain a set of coherent ideas but instead allows philosophers to throw in any old rubbish, it is thus impossible to argue what is Marxism and what isn’t.

    Seriously, what Marxist writers are worth reading these days? My New Left Review subscription has been a total disappointment: none of its contributors are known, or interesting, or talked about or critiqued. It’s like they write all that stuff up for themselves to read.

    I’m certainly not going to waste my time in promoting Marxism if I can’t recommend anything decent from it to read. All those in Revo groups right now would be making better use of their money by setting up standing orders to Oxfam instead.

    red eck

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  20. David Ellis:

    “A united front is designed to expose the treacherous and attract the principled to a marxist programme. It is not about the Lowest Common Denominator ….”

    What about the ‘lowest common thingy’, then, David? What if the basic is that a nursery closes? Do you try to keep the place open, or ‘expose the treacherous’?

    Who is talking ‘United Fronts’, anyway?

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  21. I though the S.P.G.B. had all the relevant material about the truth of what hunanity could be, outside the construct authority.

    Suppose it depends on who!s ego, you rely on.

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  22. Pinkie: I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The lowest common denominator is when the sects pick the policy of the blandest, most opportunist sections of the bureaucracy and adopt it for themselves so as not to alienate potential `big hitters’ from their wanky fronts.

    As for the nurseries, if the `revolutionaries’ cannot act in exemplary fashion then what the hell are they doing calling themselves revolutionaries? What passes for revolutionaries in Britain today is a bunch of self-satisfied, self-serving Stalinised sects. People are buying trotskyism but they are bing sold Gramscianism, its polar opposite. No wonder people believe in conspiracy theories but in actual fact it is just one of history’s little ironies that the Fourth International is now run by a bunch of stalinists and state capitalists.

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  23. Love the barricade Henry!s and their Diana!s.Arent they the socialists who deem social control by their conscieved overthrough by social disobedience,yet construct control from their party platform and obedience, to their valuent goal.Sounds too much 19 centuary to me.Time to get a grip on the social knowing of our present state.;

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  24. There’s a rather common sectarian sleight of hand hidden away in here:

    Dick: Yeah, that’s right. They’d all have to be in favour or grass roots action and be anti-monarchist. Otherwise you’re accommodating to the union bureaucracy and feudalism.

    Harriet: Maybe looking for points of agreement might be a more useful way to start.

    Tom: Agreement?

    Dick: Eh? That’s bonkers.

    Harriet: Well let’s look at what your absolute bottom line is. It could be opposition to cuts and job losses; no worsening of pensions; opposition to the wars; action on climate change standing up to Islamophobia – that sort of thing.

    Dick is clearly a hopeless sectarian, wanting to promote his group’s particular agenda about grass-roots action and anti-monarchism, while Harriet is the voice of reason in asserting that her group’s particular agenda of opposition to war, action on climate change and opposition to Islamophobia are “the absolute bottom line”.

    There’s no more reason for a genuine anti-cuts alliance to take a position on climate change than there is for it to take a position on the monarchy.

    As it happens, I feel a a lot closer to Harriet’s group’s agenda than I do to Dick’s, but they are in substance the same thing.

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  25. But there are reasons why a genuine anti-cuts alliance won’t be set up and run by a single organisation/party. As opposed to a “fake” anti-cuts organisation that is.

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  26. What’s the big obsession with producing papers? Who actually reads these things? An honest question to the revolutionaries who flog these things outside supermarkets (or rather, accept a quid’s donation from someone who has just signed a petition against shutting their local hospital, and shoving a paper in their bag) how many people even read them? And, from my experience, anyone whose answer ventures into double figures is quite delusional.

    Why do left groups pump so much of their limited resources – time, effort and most of all cash – into these things with so little return.

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