image The most zealous of Byzantine iconoclasts would find the journal Permanent Revolution’s aversion to images a bit extreme but it’s always an interesting read. In the current issue there’s a long article by Mark Hoskisson tracing the line between events in the Bolshevik Party in the 1920s and “the competing sects who… have leaderships that will do almost anything to secure their control of a campaign or movement regardless of the negative impact of their actions on the the wider class struggle.” The article won’t be online for a while since the comrades feel that putting too much content up too soon adversely affects sales. The sort of person who is able to read thirteen densely argued pages online is a rare bird but their money is always welcome.

I have no patience with the sort of idiotic, apolitical retort to Mark’s argument which goes along the lines of “how many members does Permanent Revolution have?” A Liberal Democrat, a Mormon elder or the person who runs Lady Gaga’s Facebook could ask the same question of any far left organisation in Europe and feel pretty smug. It’s the ideas that matter.

Mark’s thesis is straightforward. He says of Lenin that (p.42) “he is stained with political culpability  for creating the conditions that allowed Stalin’s rise in the first place.” This is qualified with the statement that “he emerges with an element of personal honour intact for his belated attempt to oust Stalin.”

The article assumes a fair degree of familiarity with the history of the Russian Revolution and the couple of decades that followed and tries to shift the date of Thermidor back from 1924 to 1921. Mark argues (p.38) that “it was led by Lenin, supported by Trotsky and executed by Stalin.” It was constituted by banning party factions, suppressing the Kronstadt rising and the unconvincing justifications for that action, the ceding of absolute control on party matters to a large bureaucratic apparatus and the destruction of all dissident voices inside the party. These decisions allowed Stalin to claim that his internal regime had been approved by Lenin when he was still alive which, in addition to the material factors, greatly enhanced its authority.

Although he accepts that both Lenin and Trotsky reassessed their opinions Mark is hard on them. That’s not the same as saying that he is rejecting the Bolshevik tradition. His fire is directed at the Trotskyist left’s widespread failure to accept that “its fundamental notion of party organisation incorporates the Thermidorian inheritance of 1921”. He’s right. As he points out for most of the life of the Bolshevik Party anyone had the freedom to stand up and say “Lenin is talking rubbish, let’s organise a faction against him” and not get expelled.

It would be possible to have a week of seminars around the themes that the article addresses. When did Thermidor begin? What was the internal life of the Bolsheviks really like? How indebted is contemporary Trotskyism to Stalinist organisational methods? The aspect I’d like to briefly explore is that, even if we agree with all Mark’s assertions, the events he describes happened almost ninety years ago. You would think that nine decades might be sufficient for those who assert a claim on the anti-Stalinist tradition of Marxism to have looked at what there is to retain and reject from the Bolsheviks.

Only those who have not seen the British far left and its satellites at work or the seriously delusional can disagree with the judgement that its principal measure of success is the extent of its control, the number of papers sold or meetings stitched up. Democracy is not even an optional extra it’s just an inconvenience. Dissenting views are not something you defeat politically. You do it by packing the meeting. When you watch it happening it’s the politics of an unconfident  bureaucracy carried out in real time. Anyone in thrall to Stalin in 1927 would feel comfortable with it.

Now there is a personal bias here. For my money the most coherent and persuasive rejection of this Stalinist baggage saw the light of day in 1985. The Dictatorship of the proletariat and socialist democracy was an attempt to explore the differing conceptions of socialist democracy and see how it could be applied in the post Stalinist workers’ movement.

Let’s pick a few quotes:

Political freedom under socialist democracy therefore also implies freedom of organisation and action for independent women’s liberation, national liberation, and youth movements, i.e. movements broader than the working class in the scientific sense of the word.

The revolutionary party will be able to win political leadership in these movements and to ideologically defeat various reactionary ideological currents not through administrative or repressive measures but, on the contrary, only by promoting the broadest possible mass democracy and by uncompromisingly upholding the right of all tendencies to defend their opinions and platforms before society as a whole.

The point about that one is that it’s hard to conceive of a revolutionary party conceding to the entire working class a freedom of expression and organisation that it is not willing to grant to its own members. In fact if it feels that it has to control every Mickey Mouse campaign in which it’s involved in a decidedly non-revolutionary period how is it to be expected to unlearn decades of bad habits as soon as the masses occupy the factories and erect the barricades? In practice what you get is a variation on the Stalinist idea that every class is represented by a single party. The element of farce is the fact that it’s a few hundred strong and some distance from its own Thermidor.

Here’s another one:

As the class struggle sharpens, the workers will increasingly challenge the authority and prerogatives of the ruling class on all levels. The workers themselves, through their own organisations – from union and factory committees and organs for workers’ control, to workers’ councils (soviets) – will begin to assert more and more economic and political decision-making authority, and thereby they will gain confidence in their power to overthrow the bourgeois state.

Explicit in this is the idea that campaigns, parties, committees are allowed to make their own mistakes and to learn for themselves. A class without vast numbers of experienced, confident militants able to think and act for themselves is not one which it going to overthrow its rulers. An understanding of this seems as rare on the Trotskyist left as a funny Jim Davidson joke.

How about this? Excuse the use of “toiling masses”. All these texts are products of their time:

Without full freedom to organise political groups, tendencies, and parties, no full flowering of democratic rights and freedoms for the toiling masses is possible under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

This is another way of making Mark’s point that for most of the life of the Bolshevik Party anyone could get up and say Lenin was talking nonsense and that anyone who identifies as part of that tradition should defend the rights of dissenters. But let’s stick up for Trotsky who was obliged to rethink some of his choices. His definitive comment on the Thermidor and the steps leading up to it inform the spirit of the 1985 text:

“Banning opposition parties leads to banning factions; banning factions leads to a ban on thinking otherwise than the infallible leader. The police-like monolithism of the party was followed by bureaucratic impunity which in turn because the source of all kinds of demoralisation and corruption.”

Even if one disagrees with Mark’s assessment of the moment at which the Russian Thermidor began or does not have much sympathy with the politics of his current he has addressed the single worst characteristic of the Trotskyist left and tried to find a political explanation for it. While reserving a verdict on the details of Bolshevik history I think that his central point is absolutely correct. However there has been an extant alternative which embraces and critiques the Bolshevik legacy around for several decades.

590 responses to “It’s all Lenin’s fault”

  1. What use is a dialectician who cannot tell at what point quanity has transformed into quality or vice versa especially when they want to teach people politics? So this tiny sect is now attacking marxism in the form of Lenin but it is inevitable that their state cap theories would lead to a rejection of the revolution itself. Fancy i.d.ing the actions of Lenin or Trotsky during a civil war with Stalin’s rationalisation of certain of those authoritarian methods with the arrival of the peace. State cap theory has no basis in marxism and is a cowardly pandering to middle class snobbery and a worthless, wretched clambering after bourgeois respectability for their politics.

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  2. What use has any form of forgein lanquage,of snobbish dialectict to do with exploytayion of capitalist usery.Is it a bible of knowing that will alter the need from greed,or is it a snob value for those who would percieve.

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  3. Comrades, as it happens I am in the process of producing a pamphlet assessing the politica significance of this article. Here is an extract:
    And a revolutionary victory in the West was the only thing that could have regenerated the revolution, no mistake-free political regime could have saved it from degeneration in an isolated Russia; given the circumstances that the revolution found itself in the victory of a Stalinist-type bureaucracy was inevitable. We may disagree about which mistakes may have speeded up and which far-sighted correct policies may have slowed down this inevitable outcome, more or less ‘workers’ democracy’ for instance, but these did not cause the degeneration, very visible it is true even by 1921. Nor could they avoided it; that they could have and did not is the lie that is at the heart of Comrade Hoskisson’s article. And those objective circumstances, subjectively produced, did not finally impose their logic until Stalin’s victory of socialism in a single country in 1924 against the heroic, yes, heroic opposition of Lenin and Trotsky, who understood it best. The problem with the misguided, misunderstood but nonetheless sincere struggles of the earlier opposition groups, albeit workerist, syndicalist, anarchist and ultra-leftist who wanted the revolution to succeed was that they did not understand the absolute dependence of the Russian Revolution on the progress of the world revolution.

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  4. just asking for email notifiction

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  5. there has been an extant alternative which embraces and critiques the Bolshevik legacy around for several decades

    Since 1985? I’d say since the mid-1960s at the very latest (Castoriadis, Debord, Bologna). Or you can go back to Gorter, Korsch and Pannekoek, or if you’re feeling ambitious you can even go back before 1921 to Luxemburg. (Or you could just dig out your old copies of Red Action and read some of the long articles in the middle. I’ve never called myself a socialist since reading RA, for what it’s worth.)

    The numerical argument has always been the Leninist tradition’s trump card. If you’re not leaning on that (which few of us can these days), then I think ideas coming out of Leninism need to take their chance with their competitors.

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  6. To put the same argument slightly more constructively, you’re making a very good point and and I almost completely agree with you.

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  7. The real point is that we can learn quite a few things from the Bolsheviks about how to organise, but we should not assume that just because something they did appeared to work for them, it will also work today, particulary in advanced capitalist countries.

    It was Perry Anderson who, at the end of his remarkable book ‘Lineages of the Absolutist State’, pointed out that essentially the state machine that was partially overthrown in February 1917, and finally defeated and smashed in October, was feudal – albiet with some capitalist elements grafted onto it from above. The Bolsheviks did not really resolve the question of how to contruct a party to lead a successful revolution to defeat a capitalist state, because the state they overthrew was not such a state. The feeble Provisional government of Kerenksy never managed to construct a capitalist state in Russia – all they managed to do is cling to the declining Tsarist state to try to stave off the Bolsheviks.

    Hence attempts to simply imitate Bolshevism and use such imitation as a weapon to overthrow capitalism are not likely to work. It ain’t the proper tool for the job. Indeed, the proper tool for the job has probably not yet come into existence. Not that Bolshevism has nothing to offer in that regard, but this project must involve taking what is useful and discarding what is harmful. So this is a valid discussion, but I worry that this ‘Leninism led to Stalinism’ – ‘yes it did no it didn’t’ kind of argument may itself be fighting things out within the wrong framework defined by the idea that Bolshevism should be our model.

    Maybe it needs looking at again – not from the point of view of those who want to reconcile with social democracy and Stalinism, but from the standpoint of Marxism, and revisiting how to contruct a communist mass party in purely or mainly capitalist countries. There is a lot more to learn, and to discover. We need to think outside this particular box.

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  8. What’s missing from Trotskyist political culture is not the right to have internal factions that can write articles in internal discussion bulletins but the right of open public tendencies and factions, of open discussion of disputed issues in the group’s public press, and of public dissent from the group’s positions (‘so long as it doesn’t disrupt an agreed party action’, as Lenin put it). Every member of every Trotskyist organization is expected to stick with the party line even in private conversation with non-members, however sympathetic and reliable these non-members may be.

    This was certainly the practice of the IMG, as I recall. It still pisses me off.

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  9. I’ve been saying the same thing here as Mark Hoskisson for over a decade, since I went away and read the sources for myself.

    However Ive been saying it to fewer and fewer people as the years have gone by as the relevance of Trotskyism in my life, and the real world, is much diminished.

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  10. I discuss the growing irrelevance of Trotskyist politics, in the context of a review of the recent biography of Ernest Mandel, here:

    http://nextleft2010.blogspot.com/2010/06/ernest-mandel-trotskyism-today.html

    I would be interested in any constructive criticism.

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  11. `However Ive been saying it to fewer and fewer people as the years have gone by as the relevance of Trotskyism in my life, and the real world, is much diminished.’

    You’ve been saying it to fewer and fewer people because the bureaucratised sects are all Gramscian Stalinists who have deliberately marginalised Trotskyist politics in favour of a stalinised sytem of thought that they can use to rationalise their behaviour.

    `I discuss the growing irrelevance of trotskyist politics’

    Very ironic given that Trotsky’s perspectives are more apt now than they have ever been. The collapse of Stalinism and growing divisions within the imperialist camp which no longer has stalinism to act as a unifying enemy or a police force/fire brigade in the interests of peaceful co-existence. I suspect the reason you think Trotsky is of growing irrelevance is because you are not a marxist but some kind of sect-trained eclectic.

    ID: Lenin didn’t have any special theory of organisation and the Russian Party wasn’t organised any differently from any of the other European Social Democratic parties. The only difference was that Lenin stayed loyal to the marxist method whilst the others, fattened on imperialist crumbs, crawled up their own ruling classes backsides. You are rejecting democratic centrism on the basis of what the sects do when the sects are bureaucratic censtrist or cults. Two different things.

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  12. I’m not necessarily opposed to democratic centralism in some form. But the messianic fervour generated by the belief that Bolshevism really supplied the prototype instrument for a revolution anywhere in the world is the source of much sectarian idiocy.

    Where do bureaucratic sects and cults come from anyway? They don’t just spring up for no reason.

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  13. When did Thermidor begin?
    July 19 or 20.More seriously I’d go with Cliff’s analysis that the seeds of it were there from the beginning in the minority status of the working class, but that it is with the start of the Five-Year Plan in 1928 that quantity changes into quality. This seems like a more materialist approach to the revolution’s degeneration than focusing only on the Communist Party’s internal organisation.

    What was the internal life of the Bolsheviks really like?
    At what point?

    How indebted is contemporary Trotskyism to Stalinist organisational methods?
    The simple answer is that if they act like Stalinists they ain’t Trotskyists. Though perhaps this should be balanced by not throwing around the Stalinist label too easily.

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  14. Thermidor was when the bureaucracy abandoned the struggle for the world revolution via the theory of socialism in a single country in 1924. The German defeat isolated the rev and made advance to sopcialism impossible without rev in west. 1928 was when Cliff said it became state capitalist, different debate entirely.

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  15. `More seriously I’d go with Cliff’s analysis that the seeds of it were there from the beginning in the minority status of the working class’

    So if the seeds were there in the beginning presumably Cliff thought it was a mistake for the Bolsheviks to take power in a sort of hindsight Menshevism. The Stalinist degeneration was the result of the failure of the revolution in the imperialist heartlands. There was nothing inevitable about it.

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  16. When every revolution or political party degenerates we can analyse “the seeds” in the political backwardness of certain aspects of the character of the leaders. The point is that these aspects would not have come to dominate their political characters without these adverse material circumstances; being determines consciousness, dialectically it is true but that is the ultimate determining factor on social consciousness. I am thinking of Stalin here and attempts to show he was always a complete bastard as an explanation of the degeneration of the revolution. But “the Stalin of 1917 was not the Stalin of the 1930s” to approximately quote Trotsky.
    Of course you are right that the defeats in the west were not inevitable, but, given these defeats, the degeneration was inevitable. We cannot choose the conditions in which we are to make the history we want to see. If it is as adverse as 1921-24 in Russia all that can be done is to struggle to keep the flag of revolution flying for a change in the world balance of class forces or for the next generation. Lenin and Trotsky did that, Stalin did the opposite. And Cliff’s “hindsight Menshevism” is no good at all for a revolutionary perspective. They did not know that these other revolutions would fail, this was not inevitable as you say. And a revolutionary perspective is not some very accurate prediction for the future. Revolutionaries analyse the revolutionary potential contained in class conflicts and they seek to mobilise the forces of the working class, via its vanguard, party or non-party to to achieve that potential by bold revolutionary action when required. Trotsky makes the point that if they had not seized power in October then they would be no shortage of learned bourgeois commentators to tell us it was all a pipe dream. I am in general hostile to Gramsci, at least to the way he has been used by renegades from the revolution but here is an excellent quote which makes just that point:

    ‘The decisive element in every situation is the force, permanently organized and pre-ordered over a long period, which can be advanced when one judges that the situation is favourable (and it is favourable only to the extent to which such a force exists and is full of fighting ardour); therefore, the essential task is that of paying systematic and patient attention to forming and developing this force, rendering it ever more homogeneous, compact, conscious of itself.’ – Antonio Gramsci.

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  17. `But “the Stalin of 1917 was not the Stalin of the 1930s” to approximately quote Trotsky.’

    True, but nevertheless he was the bolshevik that the degeneration picked out. The one with the organisational fetish. The one always looking for a deal with the Mensheviks. The one whose politics consisted almost entirely of behind the scenes wheeler dealing, gossip and `networking’ and very little theoretical, ideological or journalistic input.

    The Gramsci quote I think is quintessentially stalinist in that the decisive element is given to organisation (absolutely necessary of course) over politics.

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  18. Is the only thing that could be done to keep the flag of revolution flying?
    That hardly sums up what Lenin did do. In 1921 the quantitative exclusion of the working class from power was qualitatively altered for good.
    By banning factions in the working, which was part of a general suppression of democracy throughout society more thorough even than through the civil war, Lenin ensured that the rule of the apparatus through the Bolshevik Party could not longer be challenged from within it.
    Therefore 1921 was the date of Thermidor.
    To say nothing could have been done different – the argument of Gerry Downing – paradoxically confirms that Lenin did lead to Stalin. After all what Lenin did, did exactly that.
    It also means that the struggle of the Left Opposition was a waste of time. The alternative economic strategy of using the plan to revive the working class and alongside it democracy ruled out from the outset.
    As for the Cliffites the paradox is that they have the timing all the wrong way round.
    Harman says that the USSR in the 1920s was a degenerate workers state – at the point that in Lenin’s terms the bureaucracy ruled over a state capitalist economy. Then when capitalism was liquidated by the five year plans and a degenerate workers state created, they say it was state capitalism.

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  19. Hi Liam

    Thanks for this response to the article. Much appreciated. Lots of good stuff in it and I think your reference to the old USFI document opens up an interesting field of debate in relation to multi-party democracy in the context of a soviet style state.

    But in the meantime …

    could you use your editorial powers to change Hoskinsson in the first paragraph to Hoskisson please because I am a stickler for spelling my name right!!!!!

    Thanks

    Mark H

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  20. Nothing apart from buying time so that a revolution could be won in the west before disaster struck in Russia.Capitalism was not restored and revolutions did not come but the world working class was threatening to prevent disaster until 1933. The bureaucracy “felt out” Stalin as their best representative but there was an enormousd personal degeneration from the third rate bolshevik of 1917.

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  21. Actually Lenin said there was a class truce in Germany in 1923. The year before the German revolution. Hard to see how this can be squared with “waiting” for the revolution.
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/mar/02.htm

    Plus one might add if the only way that the revolution could survive was by crushing democracy, then this was too high a price to pay, as it directly lead to thermidor and counter revolution.
    Indeed just as Mark argued.

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  22. Lenin quote: “…owing to their victory, a number of states, the oldest in the west, are in a position to make some insignificant concessions to their oppressed-classes which, insignificant though they are, nevertheless retard the revolutionary movement in those countries and create some semblance of ‘class truce’.” Nothing to ‘square’ here.

    “it directly lead to thermidor and counter revolution”

    No it did not, this is completely un-Marxist and idealist. Isolation causes the Thermidor, not mistaken policies. I have written a huge screed to prove this point, which I will shortly unleash on the world.

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  23. Ken MacLeod bewails the fact that the IMG did not “have open discussion of disputed issues in the group’s public press”. Well, his recollection is wrong. A number of issues of the IMG’s paper ( under a ll sorts of differing titles) were “enlivened” by the contributions of the various tendencies. There were big problems with the IMG but on the issue of internal democracy they set a standard that the groups outside the FI have not equalled. And one of the reasons for that, is that the FI did take seriously the theses on socialist democracy that Liam examines in his contribution.When Mandel told us that the Tories, as long as they respected the socialist constitution, should have the right to be involved in the soviets, we gulped a bit but most of us saw the overall point he was making and its implications for democracy inside the organisation and within our campaign structures. Yes, we mucked up but those lessons should be learned by all the left.

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  24. You’re the defeatist.
    You attribute subjective choices to objective necessity. Clearly if everything was objective then there were no choices. Nothing could have been done differently, everything that occurred had to occur.
    The crushing of democracy was necessary. Defeat was inevitable. Nothing different could have been done or changed. What was the point of the Left Opposition? It was evidently doomed in advance.
    A fatalistic resignation to the immutability of the historical process. The Bolsheviks did nothing wrong. And anything they did wrong made no difference. And this is Marxism?

    I think Mandel came closest of the all the post-war Trotskyists to unravelling the mistakes of 1921, the banning of factions, the banning of oppositional parties, the untrammelled power of the apparatus, the use of police measures against opponents, the refusal to revive the soviets once NEP had begun to restore the economy, etc.
    But the trouble is he basically says that Trotsky abandoned the revolutionary programme for one year in 1921, separating out the events of that year from the historical process.

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  25. Plenty to square. Lenin says that there is a class truce in the West. The year before the revolution he is waiting for.
    No wonder the KPD were caught by such surprise. No wonder the communists were so unprepared. No wonder the uprising was such a comprehensive failure.

    At the very least this was a completely wrong estimation of the objective situation. If the purpose of Marxism is to shape the objective situation through a subjective revolutionary intervention then surely this matters?

    Or was defeat in Germany inevitable too?

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  26. Hi all – so that everyone else who wants to call Mark names can at least know what they’re talking about, the article’s published here

    Click to access 30-43%20Russia%201921.pdf

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  27. Well Bill, you may indeed have a point about Germany in 1921-23. The Comintern did indeed seem to lose it way with alliances with the far right on the basis of opposition to Versailles culminating with the disgraceful Schlageter speech by Radek in July 1923 which saw them orienting in completely the wrong direction before the October debacle. Walter Held is good on this. I think they took the notion that they were in the Thermidor and making it in Russia too far and had not realised the overwhelming importance of the world revolution. But Lenin was dying by then and Trotsky really did not pay enough attention to Germany before October 1923. He was not at the IEEC where Schlageter made his speech, for example, but I believe he was in the midst of one of his mysterious illnesses at the time. Some have even ridiculously charged that these were purely psychosomatic to avoid difficult situations, and 1921-23 was as difficult as you could imagine!
    But that is the charge I am levelling against you and Mark, Lenin and Trotsky did re-orientate, Lenin in his last struggle and Trotsky in his Lessons of October which set the scene for his struggle against the Troika bureaucracy.
    And I reiterate it was this defeat of 1923 , and you can well charge that Lenin and Trotsky made enough mistakes to be partially responsible for it; but these mistakes were denounced even if they did not renounced their own policies and socialism in a single country was fought against by Trotsky and the Left opposition. You are renouncing that fight as not worth the candle.
    And Badger, allowing Tories in Soviets is completely wrong, it is a capitulation to bourgeois democracy, No bourgeois parties in Soviets, ever!

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  28. Lenin did not fundamentally re-orientate. Read his last struggle. Better few but Better or the testament or any of the other late stuff. He wants to refine the rule of the apparatus. There is nothing about reviving the soviets. Nothing about lifting the ban on factions. Nothing about re-establishing the independence of the unions. Nothing about allowing wider workers democracy. Nothing about workers control. etc.
    He begins to realise the full consequence of this disastrous policy of 1921, but only begins to realise it. That’s why as Mark says he saves some honour. But only some.
    By 1921 Lenin had abandoned the programme of smashing the state, the idea that “any cook shall rule”. Instead we get any cook shall be taught how to rule by the “communist” apparatus.
    Its a disaster and it lead straight to thermidor.
    And that policy was reflected in the Comintern. Where Zionviev’s terrible policy on organisation – overseen probably co-written by Lenin- ensured that the national parties were dominated by the apparatus and particularly the Russian apparatus.

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  29. And you are an anti-Leninist/Trotskyist apologist for the Commune Swamp into which you are headed.

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  30. Bring on the barricades,to be burnt by the starvation of capital.How monstirous, would have the intent have been in those times, a world, up yours, revolution is here, and your next.

    How much of the wealth of the revolution spent, to be repeated by Cuba,for the revolution in Che!s folly.Neglecting those in need.

    State capitalism sucks,ill take the shots.Had Lenin,survived, he would have uncomfortbly dealt with the monied class.Sadly Joe!s,rule, was not so compromising for the end game.

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  31. “And you are an anti-Leninist/Trotskyist apologist for the Commune Swamp into which you are headed.”

    Unfortunately this is what passes for discussion on the British left. Raise any criticism of “orthodoxy” and the insults shower down.
    Why are these people so rude?
    Its part of the defence of bureaucratic/apparatus politics. If people are free to think for themselves, to honestly evaluate the facts, then they might disagree with the “line”.
    Who does the “line” defend?
    The jobs of the apparat and the status of their apologists who leant their politics from them.
    Funnily enough I remember Lenin saying that Stalin should be sacked for being too rude.
    Its a shame that Gerry Downing (and the rest of the insulters) are incapable of understanding the significance of that point now.

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  32. badger – I don’t ‘bewail’ anything. The IMG’s ‘internal democracy’ was fine. How well I remember our area organiser taking a pocket calculator to the pre-conference aggregate to work out the proportional representation of tendencies in the conference delegation!

    How well I also remember feeling obliged to defend whatever brainwave was in the current issue of the weekly paper!

    Maybe I was just a klutz. That would explain a lot, come to think of it.

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  33. Awe well ,uncle joe,had his say.And fondly remembered.I wonder if the progression of need and the whant has anything to do with that.Still,therse some bronz of Vlad, still laying.

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  34. ““And you are an anti-Leninist/Trotskyist apologist for the Commune Swamp into which you are headed.”

    Doesn’t this sound just a little bit Spartish?

    Nothing wrong with being a bit rude on occasion. It does however help to have a good reason for doing so. and something substantial to counterpose, not just invective.

    The analysis put forward by Mark H is certainly thoughtful, and could possibly even be correct on
    some things. If someone is able to refute it from the standpoint of ‘orthodoxy’, then it has to be dealt with point by point in detail with better arguments. Simply issuing excommunications won’t cut the mustard.

    Historical truth is what matters, not the reputations of Lenin and Trotsky. In any case, these are highly complex, controversial events whose results echo to this day. Appreciations of them are likely to evolve, and must evolve if the left is to learn from history. And historical study, like the study of anything else, will in time reveal new appreciations of the significance of past events. That is how history works.

    “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

    And that also applies to the historical issues raised by this article.

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  35. Questions about whether the Bolshevik Party was right or wrong to ban internal factions in 1921 etc are of course perfectly debatable, nobody is infallable. But the internal situation in the the Bolshevik Party and the Soviet Union generally after the Civil War were not decisive. By themselves they cannot explain the bureaucratic degeneration of the Soviet workers state.

    The Thermidorean counterrevolution only finally triumphed through the defeats of the Chinese revolution in 1926-7 and the German revolution in 1933. A victorious revolution in either case would have enabled the Soviet Union to break out of its isolation and would have given rise to further revolutionary struggles worldwide.

    Bureaucratisation, whether of a workers state or the workers movement in a capitalist state is a process facilitated by working class defeats and the subsequent demoralisation within the class.

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  36. Well that shut them up didn’t it?!

    I went to a meeting at Marxism about this, entitled Lenin Hero or Villain? It was a standard tour through the issue. Asserting that Lenin was the first to wake up to the evils of bureaucratisation etc. But what was interesting was, after I had pointed out it would be more accurate to say Lenin hero and villain, the apparatus SWP officials switched tack entirely.
    Normally they say that the ban on factions was a mistake, or a temporary measure for emergency situations.
    If you look at the record no where does Lenin ever say that it was a mistake or that it was temporary. In fact in 1922 at the party congress he celebrates the crushing of the Workers Opposition.
    But on this occasion the SWP apparat – repeated that line. They said it was not a mistake, that it was not temporary, but that it was necessary to buy time until the German revolution.
    You can buy that or not, but its quite clear that by 1923 at least, when Lenin asserted that there was a class truce in Germany, he was not waiting for the revolution there to bail the USSR out, at least not in the immediate short term.
    All of his last fight against Stalin is directed at refining the rule of the apparatus not overthrowing it. Indeed most of the proposals he made in his testament, apart from the removal of Stalin – which wouldn’t have made any difference its not about individuals – were implemented in 1924.

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  37. bill j “But on this occasion the SWP apparat – repeated that line. They said it was not a mistake, that it was not temporary, but that it was necessary to buy time until the German revolution.”

    The SWP apparat had to say that in order to justify the bureaucratic suppression of any internal opposition within his/her own organisation. You can expect no better from such people.

    Trotsky did though later write that the ban on factions was only intended as a temporary measure and that it was interpreted very liberally within the party, at least initially. It was only strictly enforced once Stalin had consolidated his grip on the party.

    Trotsky also wrote that the decision to ban factions was debatable and personally I think it was probably wrong. Nevertheless this and related questions are not quite as black and white as many would like to make. You have to understand the concrete historical, material, and political circumstances in which Lenin, Trotsky and others did what they did.

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  38. Cliff thought it was a mistake for the Bolsheviks to take power in a sort of hindsight Menshevism
    No.

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  39. bill j – obviously it is easier in hindsight to say that Lenin should have worried as much about the decline of the wider institutions of workers power as well as the Party. But without having done the whole thing before, and with the Party having been the instution that saved the state during the Civil War, it is possible to understand why at the time the corrosive effects within the Party were not understood at all.
    Please understand I’m not particuarly arguing with much of the content of the points you’ve raised here, though I would stick with the state cap position that it is the material degeneration of the revolution’s base that explains the course of the political changes, rather than the mistakes of the Bolshevik leadership that marred an otherwise healthy workers state.

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  40. Skidmarx: then the only difference between you and the silly empiricists who call themselves PR (surely they’ll have to change that now or continue to be associated with the, for them, tainted if not criminal `Trotsky’ brand) is that they think every thing Lenin and Trotsky said and did after 1920 was degenerate whilst you delay your attack on marxism until 1928. From then on presumably the arch Stalinist Gramsci becomes the `theoretician’ of choice. God knows who theirs is. Unless they are claiming to have rediscovered Marxism which lay dormant from 1921 onwards until they came along. The swamp does indeed await such geniuses.

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  41. The red blob theory as opposed to the red threead running through healy/mandel/grant to me

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  42. David Ellis – No.

    Liam – I thought I’d submitted another comment more related to billj’s analysis. Has it got caught in moderation?

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  43. No what? No you are not a Gramscian or no Trotsky’s analysis of the Soviet Union post-1928 remained valid? If neither please explain the roots of Trotsky’s degeneration and his abandonment of marxism in that year so that he was unable to see that the Soviet Union had suddenly become a capitalist state.

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  44. Good stuff.
    Of course there are solid reasons why the post-1921 Lenin is the favoured organisational model for all of the left groups today.
    Lenin’s party model after this period, inherited by Trotsky, is completely top down, hierarchical and inherently undemocratic.
    Let’s take the question of internal party life. Every single group existing in that tradition today, prohibits its members from speaking about internal matters of whatever import externally.
    They justify this on the grounds that once a decision has been taken the party/organisation/whatever must see through the tactic together until its clear it has failed.
    Has any of these groups ever admitted that a tactic has failed?
    But more to the point.
    Contrast that with the practice of VI Lenin during the 1917 revolution.
    When Lenin returned from exile the party supported the provisional government. Lenin proposed his April theses to the CC, they were overwhelmingly rejected with just 2 votes in favour.
    Did Lenin comply with the CC decision to support the provisional government until the counter revolution was complete?
    Of course not.
    Lenin put the class interest above the party interest.
    Indeed he threatened to resign from the party leadership and use his rights as a rank and file member to campaign against the leaderships line.
    There is a completely hypocritical separation made between the party organisation that characterises these groups today and the history and practice of the Bolsheviks before 1921.
    There is not one of these groups that allows the election of full timers. Let alone the dismissal of full timers by local groups without the consent of the apparatus/central leadership.
    Yet this was the practice of the Bolsheviks before 1920.
    And so on and so forth.
    Unfortunately by 1921 Lenin despaired of the working class building their own state from below. Instead he wanted a communist apparatus to teach them how to do it from above.
    Lenin too abandoned the revolutionary democratic practice of the earlier years.
    Time to rediscover that heritage.

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  45. This denunciation of Lenin and Trotsky coming from someone who completely denounced Respect’s efforts to get anti-war MPs elected. You couldn’t make it up.

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  46. David Ellis is interesting as an example of a particular style of argument. He never actually addresses the issue, no quotes, no facts, no nothing.
    He only ever addresses the person making the argument and then solely in terms of abuse.
    Gerry Downing is similar although not quite as bad.
    Its a standard rude bureaucratic method of operation. I’m sure that anyone who has been a member of any one of these groups for any length of time will have experienced it at first hand.
    It is part of the empirical reality of the apparatus method if you like.

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  47. I think the moderation software is messing things up here. There is a contribution from me stuck in moderation that is not unsympathetic to Mark H’s article.

    But rather than repeat it, I’ll wait for it to appear. Assuming this appears.

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  48. I am miffed you found someone worse than me. Must try harder.

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  49. Ok, here’s the lost contribution:

    ““And you are an anti-Leninist/Trotskyist apologist for the Commune Swamp into which you are headed.”

    Doesn’t this sound just a little bit Spartish?

    Nothing wrong with being a bit rude on occasion. It does however help to have a good reason for doing so. and something substantial to counterpose, not just invective.

    The analysis put forward by Mark H is certainly thoughtful, and could possibly even be correct on
    some things. If someone is able to refute it from the standpoint of ‘orthodoxy’, then it has to be dealt with point by point in detail with better arguments. Simply issuing excommunications won’t cut the mustard.
    Historical truth is what matters, not the reputations of Lenin and Trotsky. In any case, these are highly complex, controversial events whose results echo to this day. Appreciations of them are likely to evolve, and must evolve if the left is to learn from history. And historical study, like the study of anything else, will in time reveal new appreciations of the significance of past events. That is how history works.

    “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

    And that also applies to the historical issues raised by this article.

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  50. Hm, just tried to repost. That failed. Moderation thingy is playing silly games.

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  51. I take it that its not something you’re used to Gerry?

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  52. Way to duck the issue billj. Answer the point about your utter sectarianism in relation to Respect. Explain how you were putting the class interest first there.

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  53. On the other hand, it might just be possible for a current to be wrong about Respect, and yet right about this. It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time;-)

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  54. ID is spot on, imho and Skidmarx is near enough if we ignore the state cap stuff. Those who understand the primacy material conditions over political struggle: men make history, but not in the conditions of their own chosing etc being determines consciousness etc but dialectically else we could not hope to lead revolutions at all.
    Mark and Bill once understood but have deserted the ranks of Trotskyism and embraced the anarcho-syndicalist Marxist Humanist third campist politics of the Swamp that is The Commune.
    I will have published my extended analysis of all this by the weekend, see it on my F0b site links or by googling Gerry downing’s documents on Scribd.

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  55. “Mark and Bill once understood but have deserted the ranks of Trotskyism and embraced the anarcho-syndicalist Marxist Humanist third campist politics of the Swamp that is The Commune.”

    Possibly, but I haven’t seen any evidence of this. I have my criticisms of PR, around Respect and also Labour-loyalism, but this position does not strike me as necessarily anarcho-syndicalist at all, certainly not in its implications. It is also compatible with the DWS theory of the nature of the USSR (which I have serious reservations about) – it just places the beginning of degeneration rather earlier than the ‘orthodox’ position. It implies that Trotskyism is flawed because it didn’t catch the original degeneration and therefore has elements of degeneration build into it.

    Which seems plausible to me – there must be some political explanation for the sucession of foul mini-Stalinist bureaucratic cults that have emerged within the Trotskyist movement. If you don’t look for such an explanation, you end up with the ‘bad men’ theory of history, the demonisation of particular individuals in a manner that really is subjective and arbitrary.

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  56. David Ellis – No to everything you say. The attack on marxism, making out Gramsci to be a Stalinist, that Russia had “suddenly” become a capitalist state,claiming PR are silly empiricists: the whole shebang.

    Back to more sensible questions. Gerry Downing – thanks for the damnation with faint praise. The gist of my lost comment was to say that I’m not particularly disputing at this time billj’s account of the historical record, but to say that it is easier in hindsight to find consistency in a retreat from party democracy when we can see how the party degenerated, while at the time it was the unity of the party that had saved the soviet state during the Civil War.

    Oh and billj, when you say “Did Lenin comply with the CC decision to support the provisional government until the counter revolution was complete”, do you mean bourgeiosrevolution?

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  57. `David Ellis – No to everything you say. The attack on marxism, making out Gramsci to be a Stalinist, that Russia had “suddenly” become a capitalist state,claiming PR are silly empiricists: the whole shebang.’

    Good becasue if we actually agreed on anything I think I might be physically sick. So Gramsci wasn’t a Stalinist eh? People like you can only ever tell lies to the working class.

    ID `On the other hand, it might just be possible for a current to be wrong about Respect, and yet right about this. It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time;-)’

    Chewing gum and walking at the same time doesn’t equate to being wrong about one thing and right about another. In any case the marxist method isn’t wrong about some things and right about others. It either reflects objective truth or it doesn’t.

    By the way it is precisely the bad man theory of history that you are proposing by locating the degeneration of the post-war Trotskyist sects to alleged flaws in Trotsky or his analysis (you don’t say what they were)as opposed to the material conditions.

    As for the Thermidor, that was the point at which even had the revolution in the rest of the world started to be consumated then a political revolution to sweep out the bureaucracy would still have been necessary. In 1921 that was far from the case, though the bureaucracy was encroaching successful revolutions in Europe would have resulted in the marginalisation of the bureaucracy and the florishing of Soviet democracy.

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  58. No I mean the counter revolution.
    The line of the CC in March 1917 was to support the provisional government, that policy would have lead to the counter revolution, as the demands of the working class would not have been satisfied without taking power.

    But of course every group operating on the left today demands that bad policies are only reversed once they have been seen through to their conclusion.
    In this instance that would have meant Lenin keeping his mouth shut until the counter revolution was complete.
    It is another myth that the unity of the party saved it during the civil war. In fact the party was extremely divided through the revolution, the insurrection, Brest Litovsk, the Civil War, the NEP etc. right up to 1921.

    Factions were only banned after the war was over. And of course it was Lenin who described the USSR as state capitalist in 1922.

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/dec/30.htm

    “The transfer of state enterprises to the so-called profit basis is inevitably and inseparably connected with the New Economic Policy; in the near future this is bound to become the predominant, if not the sole, form of state enterprise.” etc.

    What were the role of the trade unions under state capitalism?

    To facilitate the speedy settlement of disputes!
    Not to interfere with management!
    To promote and train factory managers!

    So much for the self emancipation of the working class.

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  59. `Factions were only banned after the war was over. And of course it was Lenin who described the USSR as state capitalist in 1922.’

    So why didn’t he call for a socialist revolution then? Because he was head of a capitalist regime and therefore a dupe of Western imperialism no doubt. You are just a foolish anarchist of some kind. Some ultra left with litte grip on reality just a theory that you are determined to bend the facts to fit to justify your dumping of marxism.

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  60. “Chewing gum and walking at the same time doesn’t equate to being wrong about one thing and right about another. In any case the marxist method isn’t wrong about some things and right about others. It either reflects objective truth or it doesn’t.”

    This assumes that some sect (or even a one-person sect) embodies ‘Marxist method’ in a seamless way, without contradictions or any contentious intepretations or analyses of new questions. I have yet to see such a thing. In fact, the very idea is highly problematic and unlikely. Marxism, which is just a personal name for a scientific socialist analysis and programme, like everything else, develops through contradictions.

    “By the way it is precisely the bad man theory of history that you are proposing by locating the degeneration of the post-war Trotskyist sects to alleged flaws in Trotsky or his analysis (you don’t say what they were)as opposed to the material conditions.”

    Not at all. If you postulate that the basic method of the Trotskyist movement is completely spot on and not up for discussion and re-evaluation, then you can only explain the bizarre sectarian problems of Trotskyism by means of the personal qualities of the individual leaders involved. Or you have to demonstrate some deviation from the pure essence of the Trotskyist programme. You might have some difficulty there particularly as some of the nastier sects have often been the most ‘orthodox’.

    If, however, you admit the possiblity of problems with the original movement, ,then you are at least examining the problem politically. It can only be a fruitful process, even if you eventually come to the conclusion that while serious mistakes were made, this was in the initial instance a matter of mistakes, not betrayals (in the lexicon of dogmatic orthodox Trotskyism). Even such mistakes, not corrected, can have serious knock on effects if not corrected.

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  61. David Ellis

    “As for the Thermidor, that was the point at which even had the revolution in the rest of the world started to be consumated then a political revolution to sweep out the bureaucracy would still have been necessary. In 1921 that was far from the case, though the bureaucracy was encroaching successful revolutions in Europe would have resulted in the marginalisation of the bureaucracy and the florishing of Soviet democracy.”

    This is not Trotsky’s analysis. Even in the ‘Revolution Betrayed’ he does not say that a political revolution – the overthrow of the regime by force – was necessary from 1924, when he retrospectively dated Thermidor from that year. For Trotsky, 1924 was only the beginning of Thermidor. Its definitive conclusion is not completely clear, but it is highly arguable that Trotsky regarded the ascent of Hitler to power without a shot being fired as the point of completion of Thermidor. This is logical, because that was the point when he called for the formation of a new Party in the USSR.

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  62. Why? Because for Lenin the socialist revolution would be carried through by the “Communist” apparatus on behalf of the working class. Lenin supported state capitalism, free trade, the profit motive, currency backed by gold, etc.
    The working class would be educated how to manage the state by that “Communist” apparatus.
    The emancipation of the working class was no longer their self emancipation but rather would follow their education by the “Communist” bureaucracy.
    Lenin never called for a revival of the structures of working class power and democracy; soviets, workers councils, workers parties, workers press, in fact quite the opposite.
    The soviets, trade unions, workers councils, were fused with the “Communist” apparatus.
    Oppositional factions and parties, including Miasnikov, the Workers Opposition, Democratic Centralists were ruthlessly crushed by police measures.
    Why if they supported soviet power – which they all did.
    What’s original about this analysis is that it understands the change in Lenin. It does not say that Lenin was some power mad autocrat all along. Rather through the course of the period between 1918-21 events shaped him so that by 1921 he had fundamentally changed, fundamentally abandoned the programme of workers power as written in the state and revolution.

    Less insults and a bit more reading – you’ve no excuse now all the stuff’s online – would make a pleasant change.

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  63. ID: did i mention 1924?

    What billj and all these critics of Lenin and Trotsky don’t realise is that they are the syptoms of the post-war degeneration into sects and cults and bureaucratic centrist stalinoid outfits of the still to be built Fourth International. At the very moment that a restating of the Transitional Programme for today’s situation is urgently required clowns like billj are looking for excuses and ways to discredit Trotsky so that they can continue on their ultra-left, sectarian course without having to be bothered by any socialist duty to change the world in any way.

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  64. “Rather through the course of the period between 1918-21 events shaped him so that by 1921 he had fundamentally changed, fundamentally abandoned the programme of workers power as written in the state and revolution.”

    Personally, I think this statement is too definitive. As Mark’s article pointed out, he did move away from this – his statement that Russia was a ‘workers state with bureaucratic deformations’ shows he was increasingly critical of the evolving regime he had helped create. How far his opposition might have developed had he not been incapacitated and died can not be stated with certainty. If he had been in a position to lead a struggle, he would have had far greater authority to unravel the mistakes of the regime than the ‘outsider’ Trotsky ever had.

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  65. As for that last comment by billj that is little more than the anti-communist rantings of a petty bourgeois anarchist/liberal.

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  66. David Ellis

    “did i mention 1924?”

    No, but that is Trotsky’s later position, which you appear to be defending.

    “What billj and all these critics of Lenin and Trotsky don’t realise is that they are the syptoms of the post-war degeneration into sects and cults and bureaucratic centrist stalinoid outfits of the still to be built Fourth International”

    This itself sounds to me like an apolitical excommunication. The sort of thing you might read in News Line or Workers Vanguard.

    Incidentally, my longer post critical of David Ellis is still stuck in moderation. No doubt it will appear soon.

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  67. A longer post critical of me? How nice.

    Apolitical excommunication? Billj has trashed not only the whole of Trotsky’s analysis and efforts to build a new anti-Stalinist international but has virtually called Lenin an agent of capital. These are not new arguements. The state capitalist bollocks has been discussed and refuted a thousand times over many years.

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  68. I had no notion you had developed/degenerated this far Bill. Surely the entire PR cannot agree with this far right stuff you are coming out with now? You are as bad as Robert Servioce. What about your life’s struggle and sacrafice -all for Hecuba?

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  69. “Billj has trashed not only the whole of Trotsky’s analysis and efforts to build a new anti-Stalinist international but has virtually called Lenin an agent of capital.”

    Sounds rather like hyperbole to me. If you want to argue about this stuff, argue about it in detail. Refute the arguments of your opponent with better ones. Only when you have done this can generalisations be made.

    “The state capitalist bollocks has been discussed and refuted a thousand times over many years.”

    By whom, exactly? And how is it necessarily ‘state-cap’?

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  70. Normally when someone says that an argument has been “trashed” that’s a positive thing. It implies that the argument that one is arguing against is rubbish.
    A Freudian slip from David Ellis no doubt.
    And empty moralism from Gerry Downing instead. (He alternates – its the internal soft cop/hard cop – spit on someone and then ask don’t they feel sad for getting themselves spat on).

    Let’s return to the argument.
    After 90 years of failure isn’t it time to take a long hard look at the origins of the bureaucratic/apparatus dominance on the left?
    After all that apparatus/bureaucratic dominance has been a complete unadulterated failure.
    So instead of moralism – poor old Lenin will be rolling in their grave – let’s have a big more materialism. Facts are after all stubborn things – as Lenin liked to say.

    According to Trotsky by 1924 thermidor was complete in the USSR. That is a mere three years after the ban on factions.
    When debating this years later Trotsky rejected the syllogism, Lenin created the apparatus, the apparatus created Stalin, therefore Lenin created Stalin.
    He baulked at the ruthless logical necessity of it all.
    We shouldn’t.
    In fact the whole reduction of the question to personalities is misleading.
    Did Lenin lead to Stalin, palpably yes.
    Did the Russian revolution lead to Stalin, palpably yes and no.
    It did but there was an alternative. Those alternatives were identified by the anti-bureaucratic oppositions at the time and finally codified by Trotsky but years too late.
    Revive soviets, fight the bureaucracy in the unions, revive workers control of production, legalise pro-soviet newspapers, legalise pro-soviet parties, overthrow the apparatus through an armed insurrection etc.
    If this programme was good (with the benefit of hindsight) for 1924 why was it no good for 1921?

    its often remarked that the banning of factions was a “mistake”. Lets agree it was. Ask yourself what that means. Would Lenin have accepted it was a mistake? He didn’t at the time and didn’t later either. Would Stalin have accepted it was a mistake? Would Trotsky – not at the time but later to an extent.
    Such a refusal to accept the banning of factions would have lead directly to a split and the establishment of a new party. What would have been the programme of that party – to revive the soviets, reintroduce workers control, legalise pro-soviet parties, legalise pro-soviet papers, rid the unions of the bureaucracy etc.

    The celebration of the closing down of workers democracy by people like David Ellis and Gerry Downing is sad. But the bureaucrats and their supporters have had their day.

    If we are to learn the lessons of this period we need to start applying them to the party organisation of the present to escape the stultifying rule of the apparatus and their misguided and abusive supporters in the movement.

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  71. ID: I don’t know what your game is but clearly you are not reading billj’s filth. If this isn’t directly calling Lenin an agent of capital then what is? And that is without the copious number of ironic quotation marks.

    `Lenin supported state capitalism, free trade, the profit motive, currency backed by gold, etc.
    The working class would be educated how to manage the state by that “Communist” apparatus.
    The emancipation of the working class was no longer their self emancipation but rather would follow their education by the “Communist” bureaucracy.
    Lenin never called for a revival of the structures of working class power and democracy; soviets, workers councils, workers parties, workers press, in fact quite the opposite.’

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  72. This is a version of “left communism” well to the right of the ICC which would put him/them? On the right of The Commune but very much in the Swamp

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  73. If you’re around on the left for any time then you’ll know that you run into a fair few people like these two. And we know that what they crassly express on here, will be what’s being whispered around the left behind closed doors. Unfortunately, the amalgam and the “deviation”, were also both inaugurated by Lenin in 1921.

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  74. Only you are no longer on the left, are you Bill
    ?

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  75. Well only according to you and David Ellis, but that’s hardly going to break my heart now is it?

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  76. “That just make you sound like some swivel-eyed nazi”

    And that just sums up how this discussion is in danger of going off the deep end.

    Really!

    I’m sorry, but what Bill J is saying is not so outrageous. It is a question that can be debated in a rational manner. There is probably an element of truth in it, as well as some element of overstatement. Rational debate is the method Marxists use to seperate the two.

    Mark H and Bill J’s views are not ‘filth’ and there is nothing ‘nazi’ about them either.

    David Ellis in particular, with the ‘nazi’ ejaculation, sounds like one of the worst of the shriekers and screamers among the Spartacist League. I have no doubt at all that similar irrationality was legion among the Healyites also, from outside observation.

    These views are quite clearly a genuine left-wing trend that should be debated rationally according to workers democracy. Ye gods! ‘Nazi’ indeed!

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  77. billj- what say you to the argument that in 1921 many of the most class-conscious workers from a small working class had died at the front or been drawn into the bureaucracy, so that the slogan of reviving the sovietes at that point would have opened the floodgates of reaction? Perhaps this is an argument that without the revolution spreading the degeneration was inevitable.

    Interesting that David Ellis can tell someone is swivel-eyed just from their words. If he wants to treat Godwin’s Law as a categorical imperative, there is a Place for that.

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  78. I didn’t say he was a nazi merely that the paragraph in question made him sound like some kind of messianic nazi type whose just made a wonderous discovery only it isn’t a discovery it is a blessed release and permission to at last express what he’s always longed to express.

    As for civilised discussion billj does not warrant or merit it. He has spent months if not years trashing everybody and everything remotely connected with Respect not through rational arguement but mere innuendo and bald statement. Workers democracy, this little sect boss wouldn’t know it if he saw it. As for this particular arguement it was refuted before it was written. Read Trotsky for a marxist analysis and reportage of the struggle against the degeneration of the Soviet Union and the rise of stalinism. There is no arguing with someone who simply states that Lenin created Stalin because Lenin was secretaly a capitalist.

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  79. Following the debate with interest.To avoid confusion and I may well have missed it somewhere on this thread but it should be pointed out that Bill’s views are his own and are being debated inside PR and have not been agreed by the group.

    How’s that for bureaucracy! Or is it democracy?

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  80. I’m ignoring David Ellis and Gerry Downing from now on – its my usual policy but I got distracted on this occasion.

    As you say Skidmarx that is the typical answer for not reviving the soviets in 1921, but it does mean that Thermidor was inevitable.
    Indeed it was the reason that Lenin used for crushing Kronstadt. He also introduced a shoddy and unprincipled amalgam to align the Workers Opposition who opposed Kronstadt, with Kronstadt.
    And true enough the working class was much reduced, probably fallen by around half, many militants had been killed and there was a reactionary pro-capitalist movement in the countryside.
    But Lenin restored capitalism in the countryside by his own admission, through the policy of NEP. While there was a bad harvest in 1922 NEP meant that the economy very rapidly revived and the working class returned to the cities.
    This was the crux of the Left Oppositions programme – tax the peasantry to provide the funds for investment in industry. Use the revival of industry to revive working class democracy and the soviets.
    This was possible but instead democracy was closed down further. Police measures used against opponents, including revolutionaries inside the party. And so on, all while Lenin and Trotsky were in charge.
    Trotsky only woke up to the scale of the disaster in the early 1930s, Lenin never did.

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  81. “As for civilised discussion billj does not warrant or merit it. He has spent months if not years trashing everybody and everything remotely connected with Respect not through rational arguement but mere innuendo and bald statement.”

    There may be some truth in that, but that does not mean that it is OK to conduct this discussion in an irrational way, or as a heresy hunt. If Bill J and Mark H are wrong, demonstrate this through reasoned argument, not Spart-like hysterics.

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  82. ID: there is no basis for a reasoned argument as billj’s thesis is based not on fact or in theory but supposition and bald statement. It is in fact a conspiracy theory based on Lenin’s being a secret agent of capitalism. That the thermidor occurred in 1921 and was the result of Lenin and Trotsky’s anti working class instincts and policies is billj’s own little piece of heresy, his own blow against `orthodoxy’ i.e. hard won scientific progress paid for in blood, upon which he will build his own little unique cult. He wants to keep Trotsky’s understanding of thermidor but suggests that Trotsky himself didn’t fully understand what he was going on about but billj being a properly clever chap 90 years on has a much better insight on these matters. But notice how he revives Trotsky of the late 30s because there is much of his analysis that billj still needs to steal from for his eclectic mess of an approach and of course you can’t go around quoting an enemy of the working class favourably can you?

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  83. “ID: there is no basis for a reasoned argument as billj’s thesis is based not on fact or in theory but supposition and bald statement. It is in fact a conspiracy theory based on Lenin’s being a secret agent of capitalism”

    No, its not a conspiracy theory. It may be right or wrong, but it is not a conspiracy theory. Any more than any of the other theories of Thermidor are conspiracy theories. They are theories of social change, which as anyone knows, is not always a fully conscious process particularly for the people directly involved who often have a defective understanding of their own role.

    Its not very clever, if you are not confident in refuting something, to set up a straw man and knock it down instead of dealing with the point. And there is always the basis for a reasoned argument, except perhaps with fascists. And even our refusal to debate with fascists is based on a reasoned argument as to the class nature and role of fascism.

    To assert otherwise is to abandon the very Marxist method you claim to uphold. I’m not that uptight about Mark H’s views – I don’t consider them a threat to revolutionary politics as I understand it, and they may shed more light on this period which is indeed crucial for the left in terms of its evolution. The more light the better,

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  84. unfortunately ID it is not spreading any light only confusion amongst the PR rank and file as it is intended to do. It has been constructed to rationalise billj’s rejection of marxism for ultra liberal anti-partyism (except his own, ahem, `party’). Trotsky is a marxist until 1921, he then ceases to be a marxist becoming an implacable opponent of soviet democracy and the working class until sometime in the 1930 when, for self serving reasons, he becomes a marxist again. This is not a theory or an explanation of anything. It is barely credible that anybody could come up with such shit.

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  85. Even if you were 100% right on every aspect of this, you would fatally undermine your own case by this method of argument. It is hyperbole. If you want to spread light of your own, no one is stopping you. Why worry about others spreading ‘confusion’ if you can argue your case?

    You are not generating light. Only heat.

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  86. Just on Andy’s point. I don’t see any benefit in “agreeing” an interpretation of history.
    You can see the consequences of that in the sceptic contributions of David Ellis and Gerry Downing.
    Your analysis of Thermidor doesn’t actually make you left wing or right wing – or even a Nazi – although your insistence that everyone agrees with you can make you very rude and intolerant.
    The Bolsheviks didn’t demand that everyone “agreed” with an interpretation of the Paris Commune, which was only fifty years before.
    The line that is “agreement” should be limited towards the tasks of today, which should be informed by the historical debate.
    The insistence that everyone agrees with a line of history is part of the bureaucratic method in my view. Most people (including as is clear David Ellis) don’t know enough about a subject to present a rational argument so they just shut up.
    Or they start swearing.

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  87. That should of course be septic not sceptic.

    There’s nothing sceptical about those two.

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  88. Anthony Brain, whom some of us know and love, has seen a prepublication draft copy of my attack on Mark’s article and has attacked from the left. This is my proof of how well balanced and reasonable it is. Sceptic or Septic it is not but the unalloyed truith and I am not messing with your head – I am soft cop and hard cop at the same time – now that’s dialectical!

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  89. Can’t wait.
    An unpublished article is proof of your left wing credentials. How can we know it hasn’t been published?!
    Going off what you’ve written on here – the bits in between the insults – I guessing the argument basically amounts to – objective circumstances meant that Lenin had no choice, Lenin didn’t in any event make any mistakes, and any mistake Lenin may have made didn’t matter.
    I think that’s called an uncritical apology.

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  90. tamworthalternative Avatar
    tamworthalternative

    Er, isn’t Anthony Brain the guy who occasionally posts those spoof articles written in a sort of cod-Trotspeak?

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  91. ` Lenin didn’t in any event make any mistakes’

    You are not accusing Lenin of making mistakes, you are accusing him of being an agent of capital hostile to soviet democracy and the precursor or creator of Stalin.

    As for us all agreeing a line on historical events, the only thing I would insist on is that the method used to analyse history be a historical materialist one. Your `analysis’ is not a materialist analysis but a conspiracy theory based on bald statement and no facts so I think I’ll stick to Trotsky’s scientific approach and conclusion thanks as I’d like to remain a marxist. But the incredible light you’ve shone on your newly discovered secret life of Lenin and the incredible way that Trotsky played fast and loose with the marxist method adopting it only when it suited his self-serving ends has clearly impressed some.

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  92. Well done Ellis, seconded and these guys were so know-it-all arrogant about Trotskyism that John Lister called them the Red Blob. And now they are know-it-all arrogant about what I
    How bad lennin and Trotsky were in order to fit the politics of the Swamp

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  93. I’m minded of Oscar Wilde when I read you two, “The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.”

    Unfortunately for you lot there is such a thing as historical truth and basic English, did I accuse Lenin of being “an agent of capital”?
    I’d like to know where.
    But did Lenin according to his own words restore “state capitalism” in the USSR?
    He did.
    Next thing you know you’ll be accusing Lenin of being a swivel eye Nazi. Or was that Stalin on Trotsky?
    Funny how the degenerate legacy of Stalinism is given a contemporary outing by its current day nominal “opponents”.
    So what about soviet democracy?
    Did Lenin oversee the closing down of soviet democracy and not just soviet democracy but trade union democracy, inner party democracy, external party democracy, news paper democracy and every other sort of democracy.
    He did.
    Normally people who are acquainted with the argument – the facts are hardly in dispute after all – they then come up with some explanation for why he did these things. This is really what the argument is all about.
    But not for you two. Its the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

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  94. More to the point these two really do vindicate the reason for Marks’ article.
    If the way that they conduct themselves is regarded as legitimate and lets be on honest its far from untypical on the left, then we have no collective future.
    We all know rude and abusive people like them, I’m sure that many of us have done it ourselves at times in the past, but its time to be honest and its to change.
    Its time to go to the root of the problem.
    How is it that anti-Stalinism, Trotskyism, has come to absorb the degenerate political practice of Stalinism, calling political opponents on the left “swivel eyed Nazis”?
    Unfortunately, it requires a much deeper look at the issues than simply attributing it to the errant ways of the Sparts/Healyites, extreme examples as they are, on here.
    We need to re-examine the early period of the degeneration of the Russian revolution when Lenin and Trotsky were still in power.

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  95. `But not for you two. Its the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.’

    I don’t think that works. What does the inedible refer to?

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  96. My reply to Mark’s article and also to Cliff Slaughter’s Not without a Storm, who also inhabits the Swamp, is available on the link to my facebook site or directly here http://www.scribd.com/Gerry%20Downing

    Gerry

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  97. I think ID makes a useful point when he writes,
    “The real point is that we can learn quite a few things from the Bolsheviks about how to organise, but we should not assume that just because something they did appeared to work for them, it will also work today, particularly in advanced capitalist countries”
    I think there are two potential reasons why issues around the Russian revolution continue to be relevant.
    One is that socialists influenced by the Russian revolution whether Trotskyist or Stalinist continue to be influential amongst protest movements. Socialist ideas are today far more marginal in society than twenty or thirty years ago but where there is resistance say in the antiwar movement or some union struggles socialism will still be one of the political influences sometimes a controlling one.
    Additionally anyone wanting to struggles against this unjust world of cuts, of war, of oppression, mass poverty and death will be asked what is your alternative and the fact that one of the hegemonic alternatives of the 20th century so-called ‘communism’ resulted in a barbaric dictatorship that was the absolute negation of freedom is surely relevant.
    The traditional Trotskyist answer is that the murderous Stalinist dictatorship that killed millions, held back the revolution and created a society based on suspicion, privilege, power and blind obedience to authority was a complete break and rupture from the ideals of the revolution- workers’ democracy, all power to workers’ councils, freedom of political organisation and discussion. Mark’s article in no sense demurs from this.
    What it does argue – successfully I’d suggest- is that the Bolshevik leadership made mistakes including a catastrophic one in 1921 that helped pave the way for counter-revolution. These may well have been honest and even understandable mistakes (indeed they enjoyed some support in the Bolshevik party) but once the ban on factions came into place and once the culture became one where the state was used to repress political opponents it became consolidated as a course from which it was hard if not impossible to turn back.
    Why did these mistakes happen? The context of defeat of revolution in the west (principally Germany) and the ravages of civil war and impending famine were – as is traditionally argued- were of course paramount. But as socialists now we need to learn one of the key lessons of the defeat of the revolution-0 the absolute importance and centrality of workers’ democracy. If that means criticising Lenin and Trotsky and some of the methods of so-called Trotskyist groups then so be it. We are not committed to a dead dogma of codified ideas but to a living practice of freedom- of fighting for working class people to reorganise society on the basis of working class democracy.

    For some people to question the ban on factions or the suppression of Kronstadt or the substitution of party for soviet power is heresy.

    For genuine militants interested in building a new society based on freedom and democracy, that is socialism the real freedom of workers making decisions about our own lives not the freedom of bankers to ruin our lives and their political masters to bomb anyone who disagrees to be able to question everything, to learn from our history, to rethink answers to old questions is not heresy but essential.

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  98. Gerry Downing – having had a quick flick through your article, I think it over-eggs the attack on Cde.Mark when it suggests his support for unqualified democracy. And obviously I might think the sideswipe at Cliff’s alleged economism and later bureaucratic centralism is tendentious at best.

    Jason – I don’t think it’s heresy, the ban on factions is a tactical questions it’s right for each new generation to consider, while Kronstadt is a perennial which comes out the same way every time.
    The change in course of the state didn’t occur because an inevitable tide of ideas had been created, it is because power had become concentrated in the hands of a bureaucracy that was coalescing as a new capitalist ruling class. Neither Gerry or billj will agree with this because they reject the theory of state capitalism, but I happen to think it’s the only sensible way to locate the decline of the revolution in an economic context.

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  99. Jason: that is at least a measured and calm contribution to the debate completely different in tone to those made by the petty bourgeois renegade billj. However, whilst it is different in tone it is not different in content.

    I wonder what made you decide that it was necessary to rethink answers to old questions. What is leading you now to question the ban on factions or the suppression of Kronstadt or the `substitution of the party for soviet power’ and to re characterize these as conscious assaults on the foundations of the October Revolution by Lenin and Trotsky.

    You say that Mark’s article in now way demurs from the Trotskyist analysis of Stalinism although that clearly cannot be the case if he thinks the above three events were indicative of Lenin and Trotsky’s antipathy to soviet democracy. Granted you call them mistakes but boy what mistakes. Mistakes that `helped pave the way for counter-revolution’. Paved the way not in the sense that they were innocent mistakes that the `counter-revolution’ was able to cynically take advantage of but mistakes that in themselves presaged the `counter-revolution’ or even were counter-revolutionary. Lenin and Trotsky’s `mistakes’ were the result of them abandoning marxism which they did as a result of the failure of the European revolution. This last use of the term `counter-revolution’ of course further gives the lie to your claim that Mark’s analysis does not in anyway demur from that of Trotsky’s.

    The arguments about the ban on factions, the position of the party and the suppression of Soviet democracy are not new. There are no new discoveries here, no newly unearthed documents, no previously overlooked smoking guns. It is all just another rehash of anarchist, menshevik, sectarian and even liberal and far right slanders against the Bolshevik regime.

    But back to `why?’. Billj has said that because the Trotskyist left has degenerated into sects, cults and bureaucratic centrism there must be something inherently wrong in Trotsky’s theory of organisation and, because Trotsky’s theory of organisation is Leninist, then there must be something wrong with Lenin’s. There is nothing materialist in this method. The `facts’ have been marshalled to fit this pre-determined conclusion. There is no theoretical argument that grapples with the inherent contradictions of Lenin or Trotsky’s theories on organisation. Unsurprisingly really as in actual fact Lenin and Trotsky’s theories of organisation were extremely meagre and not even original having been inherited from the Second International. Both of these Marxists always began with the necessity of providing decisive and principled political and theoretical leadership as a priority. Stalin was the one who obsessed about organisation.

    This new analysis is all about backing up billj’s absurd Shachtman-like assertion that China is imperialist. It continues his abandonment of the materialist analysis of the state for an empiricist one contaminated with petty bourgeois prejudice. It further rationalises his decent into left liberalism and anarchism. The abandonment of Trotskyism has itself been a symptom of the degeneration of the post-War Trotskyist sects into all manner of Stalinist/Gramscian clap trap, empiricism, anarchist liberalism and even pro imperialist politics and this example is no different.

    So, the post 1920 Lenin and Trotsky are gone and from 1921 we have state capitalism in the Soviet Union but I think, having taken this bold step, it will not be long before a good deal more of the Marxist cannon is ditched up to and including the dictatorship of the proletariat itself at least as envisaged by Marx on the grounds that it contains the too much of the Stalinist DNA already buried within it. Now where have we heard arguements like that before?

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  100. Gerry, I read your piece. It occasionally makes a pertinent point (peppered with insults) but then lapses into a false syllogism. You write, “The upheavals of 1921 culminating in the storming of… Kronstadt … and the banning of factions… marked the end of the heroic stage of the revolution….Serge alleges that Lenin said to a friend of his at the time of Kronstadt, ‘this is Thermidor but we shall not let ourselves be guillotined.’ ”

    You argue that Bolshevism needed to keep state power whilst the prospect of revolution in the west remained. Indeed- the working class needed to keep state power but some of Lenin’s actions led to a position where later Stalin could take power away from the working class on behalf of the bureaucracy and aiding international capitalism (albeit unconsciously). You even write that this “did facilitate the rise of the bureaucracy of which Stalin became the sole representative”.

    Yet you then spend a long time talking about how others who have made similar arguments become rightwing. The logic seems to be

    Mark argues Lenin and Trotsky made mistakes
    Others who argued this have become rightwing
    Therefore he is rightwing and
    Conclude (seemingly without irony given that you seem to agree with Mark on the substantive points) that
    “the PR group … abandon that historic task…” of “leading humanity out of the impasse forced on it by a decaying world imperialist system”

    So criticising Lenin becomes abandoning Marxism. It is sloppy reasoning and in no sense aids humanity in its attempt to overthrow the elite and barbaric capitalist system stunting so many lives on this planet today.

    David, at least your reply to my point is (for the most part) measured- ignoring for now the slightly hysterical (and ridiculous) “petit-bourgeois renegade billj” comment

    The idea that the ban on factions was a mistake is hardly new. Certainly the tradition I’m in (Workers’ Power then PR) had this analysis for some time but Mark’s article is arguing that it was a strategic mistake. Some time ago after having read some of the histories of the revolution I came to the conclusion that many of the decisions of Trotsky and Lenin were seriously misguided. When I argue they pave the way for counter-revolution and the rise of the Stalinist bureaucracy I mean precisely in terms of decisions that made it easier for the bureaucracy to wrest control of the revolution and act against the interests of the working class. There is of course a discontinuity between the Bolsheviks of 1917 and the Communist Party of the 1930s –I was arguing that Mark’s article does not deny that. It partly seeks to explain the origin of that discontinuity in some of the decisions that Lenin and Trotsky took (I’m not denying that Mark’s position is different from Trotsky’s on this)

    You ask “what made you decide that it was necessary to rethink answers to old questions”

    The reason is this.

    Capitalism is a barbaric system. It crushes us. It denies us freedom and choice. 30 000 children die needlessly every day. Millions live lives of misery. A few live lives of unimaginable plenty. Yet we have the technology to allow everyone to live lives of freedom, luxury, imagination and comfort. What is stopping us is the power of an elite.

    Yet as soon as working class people attempt to organise, to challenge this elite power we are confronted with questions about how make sure we win, how to ensure that revolutions are not derailed or sidetracked into the catastrophic mistakes of the past.

    The working class can assume power in its own life and destroy capitalism but it has to reject the idea that socialism can be declared by fiat from above. Instead it must be created by the direct action and self activity of the masses taking power in our own lives and showing in practice how rank and file controlled struggles win and point the way forward to a radically different society.

    The capitalist enemy has every reason to fear this but is unconsciously aided in this process by the bureaucrats and functionaries including those who describe themselves as ‘socialist’ or even ‘revolutionary’ who wan to take power away from the rank and file and direct events themselves- their method leads to the dead end in which the left finds itself today.

    It is essential that we rethink our history and our practice to get out of this impasse.

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  101. Jason,
    It is difficult to see how you cannot follow the logic of the arguments against the article. Again it inverts cause and effect. The revolution was lost because Lenin and Trotsky made either “mistakes” or deliberately took a countertrevolutionary course depending on what sympathy you have left for revolution in general. You seem to tend towards the former, Bill towartds the latter. I take it your rewcent reading on the matter included Simon Pirani’s tome. Your position puts you close to thew ICC. As an analogy you are the Shachtman and Bill thwe Burnham; his hostlity means he is off furtheer right in quick order. You have still an elemwent of leftism, albeit based on the workerism that was always in WP.
    The material reason for the degeneration was isolation. And consequent poverty again and again not mistakes

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  102. I think Gerry is correct to focus on isolation as the primary reason the state developed as it did, we see this in Cuba, for example. Here a small nation situated very close to the US must have some central authoritarian apparatus. It is that or surely die. You could make the argument that in the long term it would be better that it did die.

    We do need to learn the lessons of the past however and we must ask the question how was it a brutal dictator like Stalin was able to wield so much power and influence and how can we put in place organisational structures to ensure this can never happen again.

    Finally, what did cause the collapse of the Soviet Union and its satellite states? Was it the legacy of Stalin, Lenin or Trotsky or the ‘failures’ of the economic system? And what of the former Soviet Union today? What does that tell us about freedom, democracy?

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  103. Agree with Jason. And the response of Gerry Downing and David Ellis illustrates why this is important.
    They represent an intolerant and abusive method that is current on the left and which is designed to stop and honest appraisal of history and events, including of course of the history of the Russian Revolution.

    The point is that through the course of the revolution, between 1918-1921 Lenin’s position on the state fundamentally changed.
    In 1917 he wrote state and revolution which called for the smashing of the state and workers power.
    in 1921 he wrote in numerous articles for the strengthening of the state and the creation of what he called “state capitalism”.
    This was combined with the ending of democracy throughout society, in the party, the soviets, trade unions – indeed he fought a protracted battle to remove the phrase “according to the norms of workers democracy” from the Bolshevik programme in the trade unions – soviet parties, the press and so on.
    Now you can argue that this was a result of objective circumstances – he had not choice.
    That hardly seems a serious argument when made about Lenin the leader par excellence.
    But it is an argument – not one made here it should be said -Gerry Downing and David Ellis simply insult their opponents for pointing out the facts that Lenin and Trotsky would not have disputed themselves, but it is what Trotsky’s defence amounts to.
    But the whole point about Marxism is agency. That is, by understanding the world we can change it. Clearly agency is very important if you are head of state – in Lenin’s case – head of the army – in Trotsky’s case. In other words what they argued and did had a material effect. The choices they made changed things.
    The choices they made were to shut down democracy in 1921, in a situation where democracy was already very attenuated because of objective circumstances.
    That inevitably lead to the rapid degeneration of the revolution and the consolidation of the rule of the apparatus, which at least in his writings Lenin supported, including in his Testament, Better Fewer but Better and all of his later writings as well.
    It is interesting that this is off limits for the left. Cannot be discussed and leads to a torrent of abuse and insults. We know that Lenin and Trotsky were not immune to such methods either. I would suggest that is exactly the reason why it should be discussed, some lessons needs to be unlearnt.

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  104. I agree with billJ’s point above, viz:

    “But the whole point about Marxism is agency. That is, by understanding the world we can change it. Clearly agency is very important if you are head of state – in Lenin’s case – head of the army – in Trotsky’s case. In other words what they argued and did had a material effect. The choices they made changed things.

    The choices they made were to shut down democracy in 1921, in a situation where democracy was already very attenuated because of objective circumstances.
    That inevitably lead to the rapid degeneration of the revolution and the consolidation of the rule of the apparatus…”

    Gerry Downing counterposes:

    “The material reason for the degeneration was isolation. And consequent poverty again and again not mistakes”

    So according to Gerry Downing, acts that he admits were mistakes had no influence on the course of the degeneration of the revolution. The cause of the revolution’s decay was simply isolation.

    But surely mistakes could only increase the effect of isolation. Whereas correct decisions could at least minimise and in the best case, help to overcome isolation.

    To suggest that the only factor in the revolution’s degeration was isolation, and that such admitted mistakes played no role and could not have done, is not Marxism.

    It is purely mechanical materialism, a one-dimensional caricature of Marxism, the sort of thing that the Second International became notorious for. It also does not help understand anything.

    There is nothing anti-Marxist about the position being argued by Mark H. It does not argue that Lenin and Trotsky were ‘agents of capital’. It does imply that they made errors that helped the bureaucracy ascend to power, and thus that while remaining revolutionary in intention, for a while they became unconscious agents of the bureaucracy. And it implies that their subsequent resistance was flawed by their inadequate understanding of this.

    There is nothing outrageous or anti-Marxist about this criticism. It could well cast some light on the origin of some of the flaws of the Trotskyist movement. This may upset some, but there ain’t nothing anti-Marxist about it.

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  105. `They represent an intolerant and abusive method that is current on the left and which is designed to stop and honest appraisal of history and events’

    This from the snottiest man on the internet who invariably closes down discussion via show stopping statements of `fact’. `China is imperialist’. Why? `Because I said so’. `Lenin and Trotsky’ were proto-stalinists’. Why? `The must have been’.

    If you truely believe it was the `mistakes’ of Lenin and Trotsky that led to Stalinism then you have seriously abandoned the marxist method if in fact you were ever one of its adherents and I suggest you had never properly, i.e. critically, assimilated it. Your adherence was merely formal and therefore unable to overcome your empiricism.

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  106. Test – moderation playing up again

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  107. So billj is locating thermidor in 1921 and this for him is the year Lenin and Trotsky overturned the revolution and initiated a regime of state capitalism. Stalin was the mere continuer of this regime after Lenin’s death because Trotsky was too stupid or just not ruthless enough perhaps to hang on to power against what must have been an infinitely more cunning opponent.

    To state it like it is shows the absurdity of what is being placed before us and the arguements used to justify this claim are the same old menshevik, anarchist, White Russian lies recycled yet again in ever so slightly different form against certain emergency measures, the putting down of the Kronstadt Rebellion and a temporary ban on factions.

    And why is he doing this. Because he claims to want to break from the anti-democratic sects and cults of the left who’s degeneration he imputes to something inherent in Leninist theory inherited by Trotsky though he doesn’t say what it is. In actual fact all he is breaking from is Marxism and in a very sectarian way albeit for opportunist ends.

    Jason calls Lenin and Trotsky’s actions in 1921 `mistakes’ as if mistakes could lead to Thermidor or as if, even more absurdly, by mistake you could somehow restore capitalism.

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  108. Burnham and Shachtman is about right Gerry.

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  109. ID – seems like the new deputy editor still needs some time to settle in.

    billj – I think it’s an interesting argument you’re putting, though perhaps it is hamstrung by only considering agency as a question of the choices of the Bolshevik Party, not of how to charcterise the state in general (this should be seen as a transparent attempt to say that what you’re missing is the theory of state capitalism, and feel free to ignore it. Incidentally Cliff does say somewhere that if the Bolsheviks had a fault, it was to make a virtue out of necessity).

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  110. `Incidentally Cliff does say somewhere that if the Bolsheviks had a fault, it was to make a virtue out of necessity.’

    And Cliff would have known all about that being the original revisionist though he did at least have the decency to wait until Stalin’s regime was firmly ensconced before declaring the Soviet Union to be a capitalist regime. Care to give any examples of Lenin’s tendency to make a virtue out of necessity. Are they the same as billj’s examples by any chance?

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  111. Mistakes, wrong turns, incorrect actions, decisions we should disagree with…

    It doesn’t matter what you call them if those mistakes include the shutting don of internal party democracy, the suppression of soviets, the use of state power against political opponents (i.e. not merely against the bourgeois or those in arms against the revolution) then they are decisions that lead to counter-revolution and facilitate the rise of Stalinism.

    So what?

    The reason this is important is because for many people socialism is indelibly associated with the sort of dictatorships associated with Stalinist Russia, purges, control of society from the centre.

    We are claiming that there is a different history- that the Russian revolution was based on control from below, direct workers’ democracy, open and free discussion, the centrality of workers’ control and the working class controlling democratically every aspect of society based on freedom and equality

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  112. Trotsky said of the soviet union that whilst it had been possible to leap from imperial feudalist dictatorship straight to proletarian dictatorship politically it had not be possible to leap the economic stages. NEP had introduced a measure of private property in the means of production to sit next to and complement the property socialised by the state as a result of October 1917 in order to avoid economic collapse and the economic blockade of the cities by the Kulaks. This was nothing more than a rejection of ultra left idealism and socialist utopianism.

    Lenin was quite clear that the system in any case was transitional to socialism, a form of state capitalism. We could only begin to talk about the existence of socialism, let alone communism, once the world economy had been properly and rationally integrated under workers control. Property had been socialised but this couldn’t be socialism. Value was still measured in cold cash at the threat of bankrupting this first workers state if it was not.. Lenin and Trotsky new that this first state in a backward predominantly feudal economy would require external support from revolutions in the fully developed European capitalist economies in order to survive and thrive.

    Unfortunately this wasn’t to be and isolated the workers state became a deformed workers’ state dominated by a self-serving bureaucracy. The socialised property remained and at times flourished as the bureaucracy zig zagged between stateization and market reforms until after one rightward lurch too many a new imperialist bourgeoisie in league with the vastly increased restorationist wing of the bureaucracy itself over turned the gains of 1917 and restored capitalism.

    In actual fact when the working class in the west initially socialises the property of the monopoly capitalists under workers’ control it will be replacing private appropriation of surplus value with that of social appropriation of the same. It will be state capitalist. Of course given the vastly more developed nature of the western economies it will be a lot closer to the socialist ideal than the soviet union ever was but for some time it will still be using money and there will still be wages even if there are no monopoly capitalists and the state in the pinnacle of true, workers’ democracy. Of course there will be ultra lefts the day after any revolution demanding the abolition of economics, the pronunciation of utopia, denouncing the workers’ state for defending itself but the reality is that the revolution only creates the conditions for socialism and communism, which are economically dependent social formations, the revolution is not immediately these things. Socialising the property is a socialist measure it is not itself socialism but it is a major and absolutely necessary step on the road to it that only a revolution can achieve. Those then who denounce the workers state as state capitalist are entirely missing the point. Their position is on the one hand utopian sectarianism but on the other an opportunist capitulation to Western petty bourgeois prejudice against the state and state property in general.

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  113. Abosulely spot on, David, you understand your Marxism-Trotskyism in its dialectical details. Facebook request sent or email on gerdowning@btinternet.com. BTW the comment on China suggests affiliation to ICL, IBT or IG?
    Where is the China debate with PR? I think they are/were right on this: Choina became capitalist when Deng won the argumenton the SEZs after Tienanmen Square – 1980 -1981

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  114. “Lenin was quite clear that the system in any case was transitional to socialism, a form of state capitalism.”

    Well Lenin was wrong then wasn’t he?
    State capitalism did not lead to socialism – it lead to the degeneration of the revolution.
    What this position amounts to is a defence of Stalinism, that is the political expropriation of the working class by the bureaucracy….but only for a bit until we get the revolution.
    Lenin in Trotsky’s words created the apparatus. What did the apparatus do? It stopped democracy throughout society, the working class movement, soviets, trade unions, and the party.
    But of course Lenin did not lead to Stalin and really he had very little to do with anything going wrong as after all he was “clear that state capitalism would lead to socialism.”
    Clear but clearly wrong.
    We know that the revolution never happened and what’s more by 1923 Lenin was speaking of a “class truce” in Europe, so he wasn’t holding his breath then was he?
    When we dig a little into this construct we find that its tissue thin parroting of a few partly learnt phrases inherited from the Sparts.
    I think its time to get back to your Prometheus publications education pack David.

    The rest is flim flam.

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  115. Gerry, thanks I will respond on Facebook. As for China it remains for me a deformed workers’ state. The CCP still heads the state bureaucracy politically for the time being from its base in state property and state organs though of course sections of that bureaucracy are reaching out to the imperialist capitalists and the growing national bourgeoisie and a showdown between it and the class enemy against the working class is imminent. The question is what programme for the masses. We don’t want to end up like the state caps who cheered the restoration of private monopoly capitalism in the Soviet Union at the hands of the openly restorationist wing of the bureaucracy led by Yeltsin. We need a programme for political revolution which doesn’t include capitulation to Stalinist police methods or bowing before some democratic counter revolution but mobilises the masses to sweep out the bureaucracy. The economic consequences for the working class have been disastrous mitigated only by Russia’s mineral and oil wealth. No such mitigation will be available to Chinese workers. Capitalist restoration in China will plunge it straight back into semi-colonial status at which point it will be quickly dismembered by the returning Chinese aristocracy, the new Chinese bourgeoisie and their imperialist allies.

    Deng’s opening up of China to Western multi national and banking investment was the result of the fear inculcated in the bureaucracy as a result of Tiananmen which itself was a result of economic stagnation. The wretched Stalinist Chinese bureaucracy has however yet to lose control. We will know when it has.

    Billj of course thinks China isn’t just a capitalist state but is an imperialist state too.

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  116. billj: looking forward to your forensic examination of all the mistakes made during and leading up to the Civil War and your declaration that the revolution itself was a mistake and nothing more than a Leninist putsch. With that then you can denounce the theory of Permanent Revolution and at last change your name to something more appropriate like Perfect Revolution which will alleviate you of any responsibility to do anything whatsoever.

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  117. No doubt Deng Xiaoping was clear that state capitalism would lead to socialism too.

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  118. You could call it ‘Workers Liberty’ or maybe ‘Solidarity’ but Shachtman was to the left of you in his workerist days – he only denied the class character of the ussr for a few years. But the AWL are now calliong themselves Trotskyists:how does it feel to be to the right of Sean Matgamna – in the cause of ‘hjistorical truth’ of course!

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  119. billj: What Deng did was invite in private capital in the form of Western finance and monopoly capital to invest in SEZs and the like. True, this threatens to overwhelm the chinese workers state but it is not state capitalism. Surely in the sense that property was socialised through state ownership then China was state capitalist in the crude sense you mean it before Deng.

    There is certainly no way to socialism without property first being socialised by the state. Whether this will lead to socialism or back to capitalism is a question of objective circumstances and the nautre of the state leadership.

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  120. Its interesting that your self proclaimed left wing defence of Lenin argues that the degeneration of the revolution was “inevitable in the circumstances”and “could not have been avoided” without a foreign revolution.
    One might as well also say the defeat of was inevitable in the circumstances and could not have been avoided, after all the subjective factor did not exist and it was therefore doomed from the outset.
    And you call me right wing?
    Actually this profoundly pessimistic and defeatist argumentation amounts to surrender before the objective process.
    Or would have, this is after all a historical argument and your rightist defeatism historically doesn’t actually make you a rightist defeatist now.
    Basically what your defence of Lenin amounts to is the argument that the subjective was objective, they did nothing wrong and whatever they did wrong made no difference.
    In fact just like I said. That is in between the pretty funny and totally random additions you make on everything from the world economy to Cliff Slaughter’s dialectics and even Meszaro and Corin Redgrave. Great.

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  121. Yeah Deng was great, just like Lenin.

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  122. Billj,

    Engels was somewhat of a determinist in this regard, it is a fundamental view of materialism. Engels made the point that while what Marx developed was great and that he was a great thinker others had similar ideas and even if Marx had died somehow his ideas would have developed anyway because the material conditions made that *inevitable*.

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  123. Agree Steve – meaning what in this context?
    I think Marx/Engels theses on Feuerbach are excellent on the importance of the subjective factor of revolutionary action or not simply attributing everything to “objective forces”

    “The chief defect of all hitherto existing materialism – that of Feuerbach included – is that the thing, reality, sensuousness, is conceived only in the form of the object or of contemplation, but not as sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively. ”
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm

    If one wanted to get all philosophical about it one could say that all those who attribute the degeneration of the Russian revolution simply to objective factors, that is – what happened happened defeat was “inevitable – are mechanical materialists, who have surrendered sensuous human activity to the idealists.
    But to be frank I think that’s a bit grand for David and Gerry.

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  124. Let’s face it billj, all you’ve managed to prove is that the epithet `state capitalism’ can be used against a healthy workers’ state just as it can against a deformed or degenerate one. The whole notion is anti-revolutionary.

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  125. Huh?
    Not even Lenin thought Russia in 1921 was a healthy workers state. According to Lenin the state capitalist regime established by the Bolsheviks in 1921 had profound bureaucratic deformations. They were so profound that a mere two years later Trotsky concluded Thermidor had occured.
    Of course according to you the actions of Lenin and Trotsky had nothing to do with that. It was all the “objective process”. What’s left wing or Marxist about that?

    But if China under Hu Jintao can be a workers state then I suppose anything’s possible.

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  126. Just had another thought, so you call me a swivel eyed Nazi for describing the regime that Lenin called state capitalist, as state capitalist.
    And then you concede the point. How does that work?

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  127. It is left wing because objectively socialism is better than capitalism because the different material conditions will mean different human beings, different ideas. A new society will create new people. If humans are not the product of their environment then basically people are hostages to their own innate character, being, whatever….

    Having said that Engels also said workers of the world unite, all you have to lose are your chains. So the idea is a complex inner relation that is difficult to pin down exactly. I tend to think the objective factors were so great in Russia after the revolution that there was an inevitability about the degeneration, though that is puerly an ‘educated’ guess. I certainly don’t object to people looking into where it all went wrong, and lets face it folks, it did!

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  128. I’d agree with you Steve that there profound objective forces that pointed towards degeneration, Engels paragraph from the Peasant War in Germany was much quoted;

    The worst thing that can befall a leader of an extreme party is to be compelled to take over a government in an epoch when the movement is not yet ripe for the domination of the class which he represents and for the realisation of the measures which that domination would imply….
    What he can do is in contrast to all his actions as hitherto practised, to all his principles and to the present interests of his party; what he ought to do cannot be achieved. In a word, he is compelled to represent not his party or his class, but the class for whom conditions are ripe for domination. In the interests of the movement itself, he is compelled to defend the interests of an alien class, and to feed his own class with phrases and promises, with the assertion that the interests of that alien class are their own interests. Whoever puts himself in this awkward position is irrevocably lost. ”

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/peasant-war-germany/ch06.htm

    What Marks article does is try to break from simply attributing everything to objective forces, that everything was inevitable, nothing different could have been done except resign oursevlves to defeat. Basically a very right wing and defeatist version of history masquerading as a defence of Lenin and Marxism.
    The subjective factor is very important as Marx and Engels stressed.

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  129. On the relation of subject and object. Only at very rare moments does the subject become the decisive, objective factor. These are revolutionary situations when it becomes the vital question, who leads the masses? At these times economic constraints are cast aside and the great mass of the oppressed straigten their backs and loopk up and become ready to dioe for the revoplutoion. For Bill to seek to apply this top 1921 and say that then it was possoible to mobiolise the masses after a terrioble famine in 1920 is rubbish. Skidmarx fall victoim to vopluntariosm here too. In 1927 after the masssacre of the Shanghai soviet Zenoviev said to Trotsky, “now you will surely win, all your warnings were ignored and have proved correct” (approx). “Revolutionaries do not win by defeats” wsas his reply. And of course Trotsky did win the argument but Stalin won the reactiopn because the heads of the opppressed masses went down again, as after 1918-19 and 1923 in Germany. Lenin would have been jailed his widow said had he lived longer.

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  130. On the relation of subject and object. Only at very rare moments does the subject become the decisive, objective factor. These are revolutionary situations when it becomes the vital question, who leads the masses? At these times economic constraints are cast aside and the great mass of the oppressed straigten their backs and look up and become ready to die for the revolution. What political line a revolutionary leadership with the ear of the masses adopts becomes crucial. For Bill to seek to apply this to 1921 and say that then it was possible to mobiolise the masses after a terrible famine in 1920 is rubbish. Skidmarx fall victoim to voluntarism here too. In 1927 after the masssacre of the Shanghai soviet Zenoviev said to Trotsky, “now you will surely win, all your warnings were ignored and have proved correct” (approx). “Revolutionaries do not win by defeats” wsas his reply. And of course Trotsky did win the argument but Stalin won the reaction because the heads of the oppressed masses went down again, as aafter 1918-19 and 1923 in Germany. Lenin would have been jailed his widow said had he lived longer. That’s the dialectic of revolution.

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  131. As I said defeatist tripe that subordinates the revolutionary party to the objective process.
    Gerry Downing effectively concludes that defeat was objectively inevitable because it happened. Is that good enough is the question?
    The subjective factor certainly does matter when the revolutionary party is in government, simply because its subjective actions necessarily have an objective significance. Once the forced seizure of grain was replaced by a tax in 1921 then agriculture and industry revived very quickly.
    The material basis for the revolution, the industrial working class was restored. It was this objective fact, the result of the subjective actions of the government, which formed the basis for the Left Opposition’s programme.
    But instead what we get off Gerry Downing is resignation to defeat and apologetics for the shut down of democracy. Surely surrender to Stalin an assertion of the bureaucracy’s historically inevitable and necessary role is not Trotskyism?
    Maybe only in the hands of Gerry Downing. But anyone who can cover the the Russian revolution, the collapse of the world economy, split in Workers Power, contribution of Istavan Metazaros and election programme of Corin Redgrave in a single document, would not find that any challenge at all!

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  132. On the relation of subject and object. Only at very rare moments does the subject become the decisive, objective factor. These are revolutionary situations when it becomes the vital question, who leads the masses? At these times economic constraints are cast aside and the great mass of the oppressed straighten their backs and look up and become ready to die for the revolution. What political line a revolutionary leadership with the ear of the masses adopts becomes crucial. For Bill to seek to apply this to 1921 and say that then it was possible to mobilize the masses after a terrible famine in 1920 is rubbish. Skidmarx fall victim to voluntarism here too. In 1927 after the massacre of the Shanghai soviet Zinoviev said to Trotsky, “now you will surely win, all your warnings were ignored and have proved correct” (approx). “Revolutionaries do not win by defeats” was his reply. And of course Trotsky did win the argument but Stalin won the reaction because the heads of the oppressed masses went down again, as after 1918-19 and 1923 in Germany. Lenin would have been jailed his widow said had he lived longer. That’s the dialectical of revolution.

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  133. Yeah got the point, according to you there’s no such thing as subjective will never mind Marx and Engels.
    The Left Opposition should have stayed in bed. Defeat was inevitable.

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  134. Marx didn’t look at the French revolution and think, yes the degeneration was inevitable, though please be aware the conclusion Marx came to is that it was inevitable given the circumstances/actions that were taken!!!

    He spent his life studying why it didn’t achieve what it said it would. And Mark has done the left a favour in opening up this debate. Sadly some on the left are incapable of calmly and rationally discussing these issues without bringing all that sectarian baggage along with them.

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  135. Gerry – I’m not sure where the “here” is where I fall victim to voluntarism. Can you give me a hint?

    Cliff, of course, says that state capitalism can go both ways:
    State capitalism – a partial negation of capitalism
    State capitalism – a transition to socialism

    David Ellis – quite possibly. Cliff does say this If there was a serious weakness in the Opposition stand, it was its acceptance of the one-party system and the ban on factions in the party – a ban imposed under the extraordinary circumstances of economic and social collapse of exhausted Russia at the end of the civil war at the end of his book on Trotsky.

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  136. Skidmarx; voluntarism in the sense that you go with Bill’s idea that it is unMarxist to say that counterrevolution can be prevented by corrrect policies in circumstances as adverse as Russia 1921 to 24 without the advance of the world revolution

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  137. That’s an interesting article by Cliff, but does rather leave the issue of Lenin’s role unanswered, while Trotsky’s failure to fight the ban on factions was a very serious weakness, it was Lenin who introduced the ban and defended it to the end of his life.
    Trotsky downplayed the significance of this and this explains his refusal to re-evaluate the early degeneration of the revolution as requested by Serge for example.
    The paradox of Cliff’s theory of state capitalism is that he got the periodisation all the wrong way round. The USSR was state capitalist in the 1920s until the introduction of the first five year plan, which abolished capitalism and created what Trotsky pretty accurately in my view called a degenerate workers state.

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  138. Is Bill still ignoring Gerry?

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  139. Obviously not. Though Gerry and David Ellis have an element of sect-like polemic that makes them easy to become frustrated with. Many on the left share this weakness, including Bill J, and I know I am capable of going over the top in polemic at times. As are many others.

    This debate transcends that, however, because it is adding something new to our understanding of crucial historical events that are in the political DNA of the Trotskyist movement. I have my criticisms of PR, but this seems like a real positive contribution to rearming the left in this period. It could in fact be an important breakthrough to purging the revolutionary left of some assumptions that lead to an anti-democratic and ultimately anti-revolutionary practice.

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  140. Oh come on ID that is just politically naïve. These are the classical position of people who are abandoning revolutionary politics, not ‘purging’ it of some evil. The truth is that there would have been no Russian Revolution in October 1917 if we waited for the political forces that Mark, Bill and his co-thinkers are now capitulating to. And it is the trajectory of the these comrades that is important, from left to right, with Bill obviously moving further and faster than everyone else, even during the course of this debate. Most sincere anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists, ‘left communists’ etc moved from right to left and joined the Bolsheviks during the revolution because they acknowledged that this was the party of the revolution. The oppositions had no political answers other that ‘democracy’ in conditions that it could only be bourgeois democracy that entrenched inequality and abandoned the hope of the world revolution. Significantly the leaders of the Mensheviks and others joined the Stalinist regime although they had fought against the revolution with arms in hand in many cases.

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  141. “These are the classical position of people who are abandoning revolutionary politics, not ‘purging’ it of some evil.”

    I see no actual evidence of an ‘abandonment’ of revolutionary politics. Actually, the definition of ‘revolutionary politics’ is a whole subject in itself – to the Spartacist tradition, for instance, the only ‘revolutionary politics’ today is … the Spartacist tradition. At one time I agreed with that conception, but it is actually a narrow sectarian conceit. It is also a conception that is, albeit unacknowledged, far more widely held than among that political tradition.

    It is commonly held among Trotskyists, that at bottom, the only ‘revolutionary tradition’ is some narrow ideological trend. Gerry’s point about abandoning ‘revolutionary politics’ is an identical conception to that. And by the ‘opposition’ I assume Gerry is talking of the workers opposition and the Democratic Centralists. They did not stand for bourgeois democracy at all, in my understanding, but for the strengthening of the control of the working class over the state and the party.

    The argument of Lenin and others at the time was that the Bolshevik regime was so fragile that factionalism in pursuit of such aims was a luxury that could not be afforded, and would lead to the victory of counterrevolution.

    It is self-evident that this created the political opportunity for the emerging bureaucracy to consolidate its power. The full implications of this were not apparent until later, and there was a reaction against it from the revolutionary elements in the party, notably including Lenin and Trotsky. The case being argued here is that this reaction did not fully deal with the original mistakes, and therefore those mistakes, or elements of them, were incorporated into the Comintern and carried over into the Trotskyist movement. This offers a political explanation for the sectarian bureaucratism that has plagued the comtemporary Trotskyist movement.

    It seems to me that those who oppose this thesis do not have an alternative political explanation for this problem of the Trotskyist movement. They focus on the role of particular ‘sects’ and the role of particular individuals in creating these ‘sects’, but no generalised counter-thesis is put forward.

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  142. Jimp that’s five words – what’s going on?
    If what Gerry Downing has written is revolutionary politics – I’m sure Jimp thinks it is – then heaven help us, bits of randomly assorted rants pasted together according to some sort of order that appeared in a dream. The wreckage of someone who started off badly – in the Healyites has never gotten over it – and endured a helter skelter ride from there on in.
    What does Gerry Downing’s position amount to – I’ve said before but for Jimp’s benefit I’ll say it again – the subjective is objective, Lenin had no choices he was a tool of history, he did nothing wrong and anything he did wrong didn’t matter.
    What’s more to say? Thanks for the positive review ID.

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  143. And just a note on the question of “democracy”. Gerry Downing is disdainful of the struggle of the oppositions, DCs and Workers Opposition for “democracy”. He claims that say fighting for the election of officials in the trade unions, elections of soviets, the rights of pro-soviet parties, for factions in the Bolshevik Party could only be “bourgeois democracy”.
    That is what is known in the trade as an amalgam.
    Indeed Lenin produced just such an amalgam in justifying the crushing of Kronstadt.
    Stalin did indeed use just that argument against the left opposition. The Platform of the 46, not signed by Trotsky, but later taken up by him, was after all written by Preobrazhensky a Left Communist and supported by the DCs.
    It was opposed by Stalin on the grounds that such democracy was “bourgeois” and “counter revolutionary”.
    How paradoxical that Gerry Downing should support the very thing that he is nominally against. (Of course this is historical and Gerry Downing’s rightism historically doesn’t say anything about his current political positions.)

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  144. “the subjective is objective” is it? Well no, not like that, it is only dialectically so, as I have already explained and as you have ignored? If the subject was objectiven full stop, then we could voluntaristically turn counterrevolutionary situations to revolutionary situations by thw excellence of our propaganda. But we cannot, we must address the existing consciousness of the wc by a transitional programme to turn it around. And our success depends on many factors outside of our control. If there is any substance in your charges against the bolsheviks it is in relation to Germany. Here from 1918 they did make big errors but both Lenin and Trotsky had big tasks oin Russia and Radek and Zionoviev organised a defeat as Trotsky charged in The Lessons of October. But they were remiss in not correctiong these errors in time. But they could not turn around the momentum of the world revolution lost in Berlin and in 1927 in Shanghai in Russia alone. Mistakes may contribute to Stalin’s victory, they did not “cause” it and this is the anti-communistn right-wing lie at the heart of the PR group’s position. On my Healyism and supposed historical rightiosm I wrote a 90,000 word book to refute Healyism and my latest attack on your positiopn Into the Swamp oncludes an attack on your new partners in the Swamp, the unregenerated Healyite group led by Cliff Slaughter, the Movement for Socialism. And they too hsve0 seen the “light about what bastards Lenin and Trotsky were

    L

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  145. `It is self-evident that this created the political opportunity for the emerging bureaucracy to consolidate its power.’

    Nonsense ID I’m afraid. The only opportunity the bureaucracy needed was the continued isolation of the revolution. Lenin took certain emergency measures to defend the revolution and was correct to do so. These did not contribute to Thermidor.

    `It seems to me that those who oppose this thesis do not have an alternative political explanation for this problem of the Trotskyist movement.’

    I have often refered to the post war degeneration of the Fourth International into sects and bureaucratic centrist outfits in the hands of individual shysters like Cliff and Healy as a result of the material factors that held sway at the time. Anyway I’d like to see you establish something that is guaranteed in advance not to degenerate. This is an argument for liquidation.

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  146. So banning factions, trade union democracy, soviets, working class press, working class parties, suppressing Kronstadt, enabling the transfer of all posts by the administration, creating an orgburo with its own military wing, consolidating the Cheka and all the rest, “did not contribute to Thermidor”.
    Its an analysis which is blind to the facts, common sense and Marxism.
    Given that according to no less than Trotsky this is exactly what these measures did do, as for example explained in the Revolution Betrayed.
    As for Gerry Downing – writing a 90,000 word book to refute “Healyism” rather proves my point – get over it – no ones interested.
    In protesting too much you simply become the thing you are protesting against – as the hysterical tone and incoherent content of the rant you have written and posts you have made proves.
    What both Gerry Downing and David Ellis positions amount to is the notion that Stalinism was necessary and inevitable in the USSR, as the workers could not be trusted in the early 1920s.
    Its both right wing and ahistorical.
    The struggle of the various left oppositions show that there was the objective potential in the party and the class to fight the bureaucratic degeneration of the revolution, including as it happens against Lenin and Trotsky before 1923.
    Opposing bureaucratic degeneration does not make you Right Wing or anti-communist.

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  147. Opposing bureaucracy is indeed left wing but opposing Lenin’s and Trotsky’s fight for the world revolution does make you right wing and reactionary.

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  148. David Ellis

    “I have often refered to the post war degeneration of the Fourth International into sects and bureaucratic centrist outfits in the hands of individual shysters like Cliff and Healy as a result of the material factors that held sway at the time. Anyway I’d like to see you establish something that is guaranteed in advance not to degenerate. This is an argument for liquidation.”

    So it was all the fault of ‘individual shysters’ such as Healy, Cliff, Lambert, Cannon, Hansen, Barnes, Grant, Taaffe, Robertson, etc etc. I’m sure plenty of others can be added to the list with a bit of brainstorming.

    This is subjectivism, not a political explanation. It is demonology. Bad people, in other words. And as the old saying goes: once is happenstance, twice is co-incidence…. Well no actual enemy action is involved here, but something flawed in the tradition must be responsible for so many organisations with fundamental bureaucratic deformations.

    Nothing can be guaranteed in advance not to degenerate. But if something is formed on the basis of a flawed perspective, with elements of degeneration build into it unrecognised from the beginning, then its further degeneration is inevitable.

    Gerry Downing:

    “Opposing bureaucracy is indeed left wing but opposing Lenin’s and Trotsky’s fight for the world revolution does make you right wing and reactionary.”

    Haven’t seen the remotest sign of PR people, either in theory or practice, ‘opposing’ the ‘fight for the world revolution’. Please point out something plausible or tangible that proves this.

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  149. The sect builders all had (a) a wrong political perspective after 1945 (b) an accomodation to stalinism, socialdemocracy or bourgeois nationalism (c) organisational methods which come from Zinoviev.

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  150. Very few of them had had any interaction with Zinoviev. He was never in the LO or FI. And Zinoviev’s authority in the Trotskyist movement was minor compared with that of Trotsky (and Lenin). I always thought this was a bit of an odd argument – it implies that Zinoviev had some kind of potent influence over other movements despite barriers of time and space, almost.

    A wrong political perspective – in fact there were multiple rival perspectives – does not lead to the creation of bureaucratic sects without some kind predisposition to that kind of evolution.

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  151. `So it was all the fault of ‘individual shysters’ such as Healy, Cliff, Lambert, Cannon, Hansen, Barnes, Grant, Taaffe, Robertson, etc etc. I’m sure plenty of others can be added to the list with a bit of brainstorming.’

    That is precisely what I didn’t say. I have on many occasions given a material explanation for the rise of the shysters.

    The murder of Trotsky;
    The even greater hegemony of Stalinism in the interntional labour movement after the war;
    The post war boom;
    The glacial pace of political events in the imperialist heartlands allowing sects without state sponsorship to stabilise and become part of a division of labour with left reformists and Stalinists. To become bureaucratised centrist outits each with their own heresy or franchise to defend, their own interests to pursue, each ditching Trotskyism in their own way.

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  152. `A wrong political perspective – in fact there were multiple rival perspectives – does not lead to the creation of bureaucratic sects without some kind predisposition to that kind of evolution’

    How can you have a built in disposition to be a bureaucratic sect and how can they arise without the material conditions present for them to do so? But of course a wrong political perspective is an essential requirement.

    There have always been socialist sects and cults and since Marxism there have been centrists too and there always will be. It is only with Salinism that we get state sponsored bureaucratic centrism but during the Cold War we saw the emergence of bureaucratic centrism not connected to the USSR but existing on the fringes of the various labour movements.

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  153. If the “fight for the world revolution” consists of uncritically accepting whatever action that Lenin and Trotsky undertook at any given moment, then anyone in any way critical of their point of view becomes a right winger and a counter revolutionary.
    This is the amalgam and means that any debate or discussion whatsoever is prohibited in advance. It is Healyite. Unfortunately it was also Lenin’s method as advocated in 1921 when he constructed an amalgam between the Workers Opposition and the white guards.
    But the fight for world revolution is not whatever Lenin and Trotsky happened to support at any given moment. After all when they disagreed as say over the trade union question presumably one of them was not on the side of the world revolution and one of them on the side of the world counter revolution.
    No. The oppositions against the bureaucratisation of the revolution were right and history has proved them right.

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  154. “No. The oppositions against the bureaucratisation of the revolution were right and history has proved them right.”

    I don’t see the logic of this. For all we know ‘bureaucratisation’ may be the thing that kept the revolution from falling apart much earlier. We simply don’t know. In an advanced industrial society I would say this tactic would be wrong but Russia in 1917 was a different matter.

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  155. Much of the ILO’s cadre (like Fischer in Germany of Treint in France of Cannon in the US) came from the period of the joint opposition, which was based largely on the politics of Zinoviev. They were Zinovievists and, in some ways, remained so even after they became Trotskyists.
    James Cannon, who never seems to have lost his admiration for Zinoviev, had a big influence on the British Trotskyist movement in the 1940s, not least through the promotion of one G.Healy.

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  156. Intersting on Cannon and Zinoviev, jimp.

    ” For all we know ‘bureaucratisation’ may be the thing that kept the revolution from falling apart much earlier. We simply don’t know. In an advanced industrial society I would say this tactic would be wrong but Russia in 1917 was a different matter”
    Steve H

    Of course we can’t rerun history according to different scenarios so in that sense Steve may be right. However, what we do know is that by the late twenties everything the revolution stood for- workers’ democracy, workers’ government, freedom, equality- was negated and replaced by a vicious dictatorship over the workers. It seems reasonable to argue that bureaucratisation that closed down workers’ democracy, that banned factions, that made the party become the ruling force in society, abolishing independent trade union democracy all helped the pave the way for counter-revolution. Defending the regime and defending workers’ power is not the same thing.

    David Ellis and Gerry are right that the biggest factors were the failure of revolution in the west, isolation, civil war etc. but they are wrong if they are suggesting that this means no criticism of Lenin or Trotsky or in Gerry’s case that any criticism is counter-revolutionary.

    David is also right about the objecitve factors leading to the post-war Trotskyist movement being isolated and therefore the rise of sectarians is facilitated but it should not mean for a minute that we fail to criticise those sectarian practices nor point out how many Trotskyists adopted semi-Stalinist measures.

    To go forward, now, socialists need to get involved in all sorts of struggles in working class communities, to show how in practice rank and file democratic movements from below get results- but we also need to unlearn therefore th eimpulse to control or run campaigns, to make campaigns recruiting competioons for groups or in any other way conform to some of the steretyps many have about the left (laregly because of bourgeois disinfomration but partly of course based on expereince)

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  157. jimp

    “Much of the ILO’s cadre (like Fischer in Germany of Treint in France of Cannon in the US) came from the period of the joint opposition, which was based largely on the politics of Zinoviev. They were Zinovievists and, in some ways, remained so even after they became Trotskyists.”

    The joint opposition ceased by 1928. Most of these people – Cannon excepted – had ceased to be part of the Opposition long before it became the FI. If Cannon’s conceptions were so different from Trotsky’s then they would have been expected to result in sharp clashes – but in fact they worked closely for years without major clashes. The idea that the bureaucratism simply came from Zinoviev’s rather distant influence is not convincing.

    And of course, when David Ellis says:

    “How can you have a built in disposition to be a bureaucratic sect and how can they arise without the material conditions present for them to do so?”

    That point also applies to the Zinovievism thesis, that the sectarianism and worse came exclusively from Zinoviev.

    If sectarianism was the product of objective conditions it is harsh to call the leaders of the sects ‘shysters’. In fact, it logically should amnesty them, as ‘conditions’ determined what they did. In general, with the odd exception, they were not shysters at all, but more or less honestly carrying out what they had learned. Maybe, just maybe, there were flaws in what they learned.

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  158. In the 1930s, people like Max Shachtman and James Cannon could, despite their political shortcomings, play a positive role. During WWII and the post-war years there was a much lower level of class struggle and those short comings stood out that much more and by the mid 1940s the US SWP were cheerleading stalinism.

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  159. `If sectarianism was the product of objective conditions it is harsh to call the leaders of the sects ‘shysters’. In fact, it logically should amnesty them, as ‘conditions’ determined what they did. In general, with the odd exception, they were not shysters at all, but more or less honestly carrying out what they had learned. Maybe, just maybe, there were flaws in what they learned.’

    Now that really would be to blame Lenin for Stalin. But you seem to be master of the absurd at the moment. Lenin = Stalin, Healy = Trotsky? Really? The shysters were the result of the degeneration of the Fourth International, much as Stalin was selected by objective processes to be the leader of Thermidor in the Soviet Union. There was nothing honest about these people. Marx and Engels abandoned the First International due to its degeneration at the hands of sectarians they didn’t just degenerate with it.

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  160. “David Ellis and Gerry are right that the biggest factors were the failure of revolution in the west, isolation, civil war etc. but they are wrong if they are suggesting that this means no criticism of Lenin or Trotsky or in Gerry’s case that any criticism is counter-revolutionary.”
    David can speak for himself. I concede that the Bolsheviks made many mistakes in those years. But that is what they were; mistakes, not counter-revolutionary policies. I am not opposed to criticism; in fact I take much of it on board. What I have objected to is THIS criticism, its nature and character, which is counter-revolutionary. Criticism in order to further the cause of the revolution is good, criticism that is as ill-informed and prejudiced against the revolution and the logic of its rise and degeneration by attribution it all to Trotsky and Lenin is the property of right wing anti-communists. Not there yet in many cases I am sure but Bill must be perilously close now.

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  161. David Ellis

    “Now that really would be to blame Lenin for Stalin. But you seem to be master of the absurd at the moment. Lenin = Stalin, Healy = Trotsky? Really? The shysters were the result of the degeneration of the Fourth International, much as Stalin was selected by objective processes to be the leader of Thermidor in the Soviet Union. There was nothing honest about these people. Marx and Engels abandoned the First International due to its degeneration at the hands of sectarians they didn’t just degenerate with it.”

    That’s crazy. No where did I equate Lenin with Stalin(!), nor Trotsky with Healy(!). Actually, I gave Healy’s name as part of a rather long list. You may, with considerable justification in that particular case, be able to call Healy a shyster, but the others on that list were not ‘shysters’.

    This is again, setting up a straw man. Healy is the exception in that he was always a crook and a thug, but others who also led bureaucratic and sectarian organisations were serious, basically honest and dedicated revolutionaries. You are in no way inherently better than they are, and in their shoes with your understanding you would have done similar if not identical things. As indeed would I.

    Again, you have the bad men theory of history, instead of an objective examination of mistakes and their origins, which includes the subjective factor. Without analysing the subjective factor objectively and historically, you flip-flop between amnestying those who made mistakes (‘it was the objective factor to blame’) and demonising them (‘they were evil people – shysters’). Both attitudes are two sides of the same coin, and both are wrong.

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  162. I am afraid ID you are leaving materialism far behind.

    What were the material conditions that gave rise to Thermidor in the Soviet Union? What were the material conditions that allowed a bunch of sectarians, centrists, cultist, Gramscian Stalinists, Stalinists, general opportunists and flea crackers to gain control of the Fourth International? On both occasions you point to a built in subjective hidden mechanism bequeathed by Lenin and Trotsky but you never tell us what it is.

    You claim that I would have gone along with the degeneration of the Fourth but you have not justification for saying such a thing. Marx and Engels ditched the First International when it became clear it was useless for the purposes of Revolution, Lenin ditched the Second and Trotsky the Third. None of them were organisational fetishists and all started from politics not organisation. I may well have joined the ranks of the revisionists but I hope I would not have. You cannot say for certain that I would although clearly you are less confident about your own proclivities. As for the `bad men’ theory of history then yes I do believe Stalin was a very bad man but bad men need the right conditions in order to thrive let alone triumph. The fourth is yet to be built.

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  163. ” the Bolsheviks made many mistakes in those years. But that is what they were; mistakes, not counter-revolutionary policies. I am not opposed to criticism; in fact I take much of it on board. What I have objected to is THIS criticism, its nature and character, which is counter-revolutionary”

    That would be fair enough but you offer no evidence that THIS criticism- that the 1921 ban on factions and other related events closing down soviet and party democracy were strategic errors – iscounter-revolutionary.

    If the only way to defend the revolution is to attack workers’ democracy then the result is not really revolution or socialism but something else. Even if temporary measures could be defended- and reality is of course complex and messy- it is essential that these are decisions made from and controlled from below answerable to workers’ democracy- otherwise such a regime ceases to be in any meaningful sense socialist.

    Of course this is not to argue that Lenin or Trotsky were counter-revolutionaries – merely that we with hindsight can criticise and indeed some of the workers’ opposition did at the time. Nor is to say that everything the workers’ opposition supported was right- far from it. But decisions should be made by the workers. That’s why we are socialists,
    It is tempting for some to cast Lenin and Trotsky as heroes (and tempting for others to cast them as villains). Reality, as always, is more interesting.

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  164. `Of course this is not to argue that Lenin or Trotsky were counter-revolutionaries –’

    Oh but it is and the absurdity of the thesis means that ultimately it is the revolution itself that you will be denouncing and with it, guess what, the theory of permanent revolution.

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  165. We hear on the grapevine there is a counterblast coming from within the PR. Hope it comes soon before you have to rename your magazine Workers Solidarity/Liberty. When I was in the RIL many years ago the charge against WP was workerism. There is more than a litle of that here. And Jason is definitely to the left of Bill J on all this, we are pleased to say and his political soul may yet be saved for the revolution with a fight from within his own group, if they have enough fight left in them to do it. The grapevine may be wrong.

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  166. Well I hope you are right Gerry because if they don’t they will be leaving not just Lenin and Trotsky behind but the whole of Marxism. Billj will only listen to criticism from those to his right from now on which means in order to iron out some of the huge contradictions in his position he will have to dump more and more of what he used to think he believed in if he wants the respect of the swamp.

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  167. Coming into the discussion some eleven days after the initial post I find many of the above comments petty and subjective in the idealist sense. To enter the fray I would say that the concept that the ‘original sin’ of the degeneration of the Bolshevik/Soviet state lay in either 1917/1921/1924, is a false premise for the obscuring of the dynamic of the process of social revolution in regard to class concious leadership and their relationship with the progressive mass class themselves. Bill J, writing on day 2, said: “Actually Lenin said there was a class truce in Germany in 1923. The year before the German revolution. Hard to see how this can be squared with “waiting” for the revolution …” He even included the Marxixst.org site for this so-called Lenin assertion. How poor. If the reader were to read the relevant paragraph he would see that Lenin was NOT referring to Germany but ostensibly the French and British. To wit: …”The system of international relationships which has now taken shape is one in which a European state, Germany, is enslaved by the victor countries. Furthermore, owing to their victory, a number of states, the oldest states in the West, are in a position to make some insignificant concessions to their oppressed classes- concessions which, insignificant though they are, nevertheless heard the revolutionary movement in those countries and create some semblance of “class truce.” – Better fewer, but better” Lenin, 1923. Of course we must query the seriousness of a number of contributors when a basic misunderstanding of passages are quoted for polemical purposes that are patently false.

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  168. What are you on about heard it on the grapevine, counterblast and such nonsense. Yes comrades who disagree with Mark’s position are allowed and indeed encouraged in PR to present their differences. Good on them. May the debate continue, I’m sure it will.
    That’s called democracy.
    But NO!!! the shrill voices of orthodoxy cry, Crush it!!! The world revolution requires our subordination to the revolutionary genius of Gerry Downing and David Ellis! Forward to brain death!
    As for Ray Rising – well my misinterpretation is a pretty moot point, Germany was part of the system of international relationships. To say there was a class truce in Britain three years before the general strike and two years before Red Friday is hardly more accurate.
    The point was that Lenin did not introduce the rule of the apparatus in order to “wait for the world revolution”, but in order to create a system of what he called state capitalism. Better fewer but better does not call for the lifting of the ban on factions, revival of soviets, revival of trade union democracy, revival of party democracy or anything of the sort. Explain that.

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  169. David Ellis

    “What were the material conditions that gave rise to Thermidor in the Soviet Union? What were the material conditions that allowed a bunch of sectarians, centrists, cultist, Gramscian Stalinists, Stalinists, general opportunists and flea crackers to gain control of the Fourth International? On both occasions you point to a built in subjective hidden mechanism bequeathed by Lenin and Trotsky but you never tell us what it is.”

    In that case,how were the material conditions in 1921 in Russia fundamentally different from in 1924? They were not substantially different. So your argument that all flows from ‘material conditions’ could just as well apply to 1921 as 1924. This is an objectivist argument – obviously a major break with previous concepts of party democracy took place in 1921 with the ban on factions, and the open ascendancy of Stalin, the declaration of the theory of ‘socialism in one country’ and the initial defeats of the Trotskyist opposition stood on the shoulders of the defeats of party democracy circa 1921.

    The same weakness, the acceptance of bureaucratic methods aimed at preserving the revolution by Lenin and Trotsky, laid the basis for the further entrenchment of the bureaucracy and Stalin in 1924, using and intensifying the use of these methods to undermine the revolution in pursuit of a nationalist programme.

    This subjective weakness made it impossible for those who supported and accepted the ban on factions to struggle against Stalin when he pointed to those measures to justify the regime. With a different understanding of this, a more effective struggle could have been waged.

    The same is true for the the post WWII Trotskyists. Cannon, whose Zinovievism is supposedly responsible for this according to some, was Trotsky’s closest international political associate for most of the 1930s and Trotsky never made any disagreements with his methods known.

    The whole ethos of forbidding public criticism and disagreement is laid out in detail in Cannon’s ‘The Struggle for a Proletarian Party’, which Trotsky praised as a fine document. Yet this was not the practice of the pre-October 1917 Bolshevik Party. It is the seedbed of split after split. And of course the forbidding of public criticism has a tendency to grow over to the forbidding of serious internal criticism also. Hence more splits. That is the legacy of the change in party organisation that took place in 1921.

    The material conditions post WWII did not determine the formation of a series of sects. A different kind of organisation could have been build even in those conditions, if a different understanding had prevailed.

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  170. I think that’s right ID. Trotsky accepted the so called Zinovievite method of party building, as that was in fact the Comintern Leninist method of party building as developed in the theses on organisation from 1920 onwards.
    The idea that all the errors of the Comintern can be blamed on Zinoviev, see Jimp, is standard but actually somewhat ridiculous.
    Zinoviev was Lenin’s right hand man, he did nothing without Lenin’s say so,l anything he wrote or said would have been agreed with Lenin. Indeed if you read Angelica Balabanoff’s memoirs, which are it should be said justifiably bitter towards Lenin to a degree, then its clear that Lenin was playing the internationals like Balabanoff from both sides, sympathising with them and then permitting Zinoviev to stitch them up. There are several accounts of this happening, meetings rescheduled, deadlines changed, strange foreign visits organised and so on, which Lenin sympathises with Balbanoff about but does nothing to change.
    Indeed Cannon as you point out, carried this practice into the Fourth International.

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  171. Germany was not primarily a ‘part of a system of international relationships’ (unity) but it was the loser in the inter-Imperialist war (conflict) for colonial/capitalist expansion that was precisely the precursor to 1914 and the result of 1918 and the subsequent Versailles Treaty of reparations to the ‘victors’. Lenin spoke of the semblance (token) paltry offerings to the labour lieutenants of capital in Britain and France and to suggest that they were general moves toward class truce is a deflecting lie. The theme of Lenin’s article encompassed both the serious question of quality in leadership (Bolshevik/Soviet) which was essentially revolutionary, alongside manufacture technique and culture which had to encompass, apprehend and supercede bourgeois norms over a timescale differing in dynamic social assimilation. The dilution of quality in a haste for inferior quantity was of a differing tempo requirement. The Thermidor of degeneration had its source in general want to which the bureaucrats of middling aspirations, military, managers and diplomats all clamoured to stake a claim. The very same ‘greyness’ of quantity/quality endured through the whole existence of the ’emergent/degenerative workers state’ 1917 -1991 and the legacy remains still.

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  172. A new Luminary has joined the cannon of the Swamp to bash Lenin and Trotsky: Angelica Balabanoff. Here is the front page blurb for those already in: “In the Swamp Max Shachtman, Raya Dunayevskya, CLR James and Hal Draper mediated through the works of Georg Lukács, István Mészáros, Cyril Smith and Cliff Slaughter now trump Lenin and Trotsky as political models”

    This is an abridged version (google it for the full version) the review of her memoirs by none other than Max Shachtman – note the editorial board of the pre-split (from Cannon’s US SWP) New International:

    Max Shachtman, Balabanoff’s Memoirs, (November 1938)
    Source: The New International: A Monthly Organ of Revolutionary Marxism, Vol.4 No.11, November 1938, pp.348-350.
    Editorial Board: James Burnham, Max Shachtman, Maurice Spector.
    Transcribed & marked up: Sally Ryan for the Marxists’ Internet Archive, June 1999.
    My Life as a Rebel, By ANGELICA BALABANOFF, ix+319 pp. Illus. New York, Harper & Brothers. $3.75.
    The memoirs of Angelica Balabanoff make up a sad book…It is a sad book because it reveals that for all the passionately revolutionary spirit that animated her in four decades of activity in the working class movement, she did not succeed in mastering the simple lesson that Lenin tried to teach her friend Serrati at the Second Congress of the Comintern in 1920…
    Her break with Lenin and the Bolsheviks – her estimate of them forms, next to her evaluation of Mussolini, the bitterest part of her volume of portraits and judgments – was inevitable; and the reason why remains, to her, uncomprehended down to the present day. There lies the nub of the tragedy of her political life and of her book. The torrential sweep of the Russian revolution sucked her into the Bolshevik party, but only for a brief period of time. Looking back upon it in 1938, and sitting in lofty judgment on the Bolsheviks, she explains the collapse of the Third International by the moral leprosy of Zinoviev – symbol of all that to her was inherently vicious in Bolshevism; the degeneration reflected in the recent trials “was developed under Zinoviev himself” and the frame-ups and confessions “were implicit in the development of the Bolshevik method, the Leninist strategy, since the Revolution … the Bolshevik leaders were capable of anything to achieve their own political and factional ends …”
    Both the analysis and verdict have already served as the pathetic theme for reviews of the book in the petty bourgeois press, in which the dastardly immorality of the Bolsheviks is sanctimoniously and invidiously contrasted with what Professor Douglas calls the “fundamental sincerity” of Balabanoff, “one who believes that the means as well as the ends of economic action are important”.
    The explanation lies, however, elsewhere. Balabanoff’s book is astoundingly devoid of political characterizations; it is filled with pictures of good men and bad men, honest men and crooks, blunderers and seers; and after the narration of all her experiences in various groups and movements, Balabanoff terminates her book without informing the reader of what are her specific political program and her political associations. Yet, while she does not apply political criteria to herself, it does not follow that such criteria are not applicable to her.
    In international socialist politics, Balabanoff never was a communist but rather a representative of that wing of Menshevism led by Julius Martov. Its chief characteristic was a strong literary radicalism, which sometimes went so far as to bring it into peripheral touch with Lenin’s thoroughgoing Marxism, but which rarely went so far as application in political life. The leaders of radical centrism could characterize the right wing with no lesser accuracy than did the Bolsheviks, but unlike the latter, who took seriously the proletarian revolution and the politics and methods leading to it, they could not bring themselves to a radical suspension of collaboration with the right wing. That is why even the most radical of Mensheviks, Martov, could “agree 95 percent” with the Bolsheviks, yet tax them with being “professional splitters”, and devote 95 percent of his blows at Lenin and 5 percent at the right wing with which he scarcely agreed at all.
    This is the reason – Balabanoff is not Martov, to be sure, but she suffers from the same political malady – why she could not remain in the Comintern, and not the intrigues, real or alleged, of Zinoviev. It is also the reason why her memoirs, even where they deal with personalities – and they deal with little else – are, with all respect to Professor Douglas’ talk about “fundamental sincerity”, hopelessly one-sided, splotched and distorted beyond balance and proportion. All the Bolsheviks are limned with splashes of black, shading off into blotches of mud; the social democrats, as a rule, are painted in nostalgic pastels.
    Knowing his notorious weaknesses, one cannot be the advocate of Zinoviev; yet, throughout the early period of the Russian Revolution and the Comintern, he was the man, next to Lenin and Trotsky, who restored revolutionary Marxism to its rightful place in the world labor movement and who helped train up a whole generation – not excluding Balabanoff, for a time! – in its principles and traditions. Yet he emerges from her memoirs only as “the most despicable individual I have ever met”.
    On the other hand, however, Filippo Turati, leader of the Italian right wing, whose socialism Benedetto Croce aptly characterized as that of a “democrat á la Lombard”, and who, by his politics, was more responsible than any other man in the movement for the paralysis of the Italian working class which made possible Mussolini’s triumph, is very gently defended by Balabanoff.

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  173. billj – further to your comment above I have had a look through the third volume of Cliff’s work on Lenin (which is unfrtunately the only one of the triology not on marxists.org). Cliff actually seems less concerned to defend the ban on factions than the earlier ban on other parties. He puts it in the context of the retreat of the NEP, the “Peasant Brest” as Lenin put it, points out that by rejecting Riazonov’s proposal that separate platforms for CC electionsLenin was clear on the need to retain inner-party opposition, and finishes by quoting Radek as an example of the feeling that there was no alternative at the time.

    I find bizarre the suggestion that Russia only becomes a workers state at the point where Stalin consolidated his power, I don’t think that Trotsky quite agreed with that. Again it seems to me that only a theory like Cliff’s that places actual control rather than formal ownership at the heart of its class assessment of a state and society can adequately explain why the revolution degenerated. And to think that a ban on factions in modern revolutionary groups is a major reason for their failures is I think an unjutified leap, the IS experience might suggest that when the group has a relatively small influence on the outside world it is simply a route to groups that would be happier apart staying in a marriage of inconvenience.

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  174. Gerry and David your argumentation borders the absurd.

    You state that to argue that errors made by the Bolshevik leadership is counter-revolutionary, abandoning Marxism, “leaving not just Lenin and Trotsky behind but the whole of Marxism” (David).
    But Gerry says
    “I concede that the Bolsheviks made many mistakes in those years.”

    So ergo by his (non) logic he is counter revolutionary!

    It is all a little silly.

    The fact is socialism, communism if it is to mean anything should be about a living evolving system of thought and practice able to have debates, discussions and criticism. It shouldn’t need a quote from Lenin to prove this but it might help Gerry with all his talk of political ‘souls’ to ‘save’- it at least shows that communism when it was linked to a revolutionary mass movement as a living practice understood the need for learning critically, in practice:

    “If the study of communism consisted solely in assimilating what is contained in communist books and pamphlets, we might all too easily obtain communist text-jugglers or braggarts, and this would very often do us harm, because such people, after learning by rote what is set forth in communist books and pamphlets, would prove incapable of combining the various branches of knowledge, and would be unable to act in the way communism really demands.

    One of the greatest evils and misfortunes left to us by the old, capitalist society is the complete rift between books and practical life; we have had books explaining everything in the best possible manner, yet in most cases these books contained the most pernicious and hypocritical lies, a false description of capitalist society. …

    You should not merely assimilate this knowledge, but assimilate it critically…to acquire it in such a way that communism shall not be something to be learned by rote, but something that you yourselves have thought over… only if you are able to transform communism from cut-and-dried and memorised formulas, counsels, recipes, prescriptions and programmes into that living reality which gives unity to your immediate work, and only if you are able to make communism a guide in all your practical work. ”

    Lenin, 1920 http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/oct/02.htm

    For socialists to again have influence today we need to play our part in building mass movements- in having councils of action, bodies of struggle, that actually work, get results, that other workers learn from, emulate, adopt, adapt, evolve …

    That is why the Russian revolution succeeded. In today’s very different world but one still marked by elite power and mass misery we can organise similarly dynamic and learning bodies of struggle based on critical pedagogy.

    For Marxism to succeed it will need to do a lot more than learn from the mistakes of the past- for Marxists to become consistent democrats but that is a necessary though not sufficient condition for success.

    We also need to connect or reconnect with the living struggles of today’s working class communities- migrants, youth, people struggling in every corner of society and the globe. But to do that we have to abandon Marxism as religious dogma and the practice of heaping abuse and accusations of apostasy on anyone who we disagree with

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  175. @ Skidmarx

    I’m not suggesting this was Trotsky’s position.
    The ban on parties, that is the total ban on soviet parties, only began in 1921, after the civil war. The Mensheviks were legal/illegal throughout the period until the general repression of democracy from 1921 onwards.
    The ban on factions was not only about banning inner party democracy but democracy in general.
    My point is that what Lenin called “state capitalism” was introduced with NEP. The central plans from 1928 onwards abolished capitalism in the countryside and urban situation, hence the absurdity of “state capitalism” as a theory. It attributes the creation of capitalism to the point when it was abolished.
    I’ve obviously read Shactman’s review of Balabanoff’s book before. Try reading something for yourself Gerry instead of just parroting second hand sources.

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  176. Well that parrot has just bitten you on the bum

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  177. I’m not clear why Bill doesn’t just join the Commune group.

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  178. Jim,
    That’s the whole point of The Swamp; you don’t actually ‘join’ more ‘inhabit’, Entry criteria are joint contempt for the achievements of Lenin and Trotsky, an implied denial of the role of the Bolsheviks in making the Russian Revolution, a libertarian outlook along the lines of John Stuart Mills and so a counterposition of the dictatorship of the proletariat to ‘democracy’ more or less, depending on the degree of rightism reached, embracing bourgeois democracy, And an opposition to democratic centralism and so a denial that the working class can ever get a political leadership thar truewly acts in their historic interests internationally, one that sees the need to sweep away the ‘muck of ages’ by revolution, i.e. one that orientates towards its head rather to its rump. In other one that is a internationalism which is able to reject British jobs for British workers and its manifestation in the working class because that can only destroy the hope for thw revolution should it succeed. No coincidence that all in The Swamp supported the national strikes for Bj4Bws because ‘the workers’ (mainly white British ones) wanted to protect ‘their’ jobs.

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  179. `In that case,how were the material conditions in 1921 in Russia fundamentally different from in 1924? They were not substantially different. So your argument that all flows from ‘material conditions’ could just as well apply to 1921 as 1924. This is an objectivist argument – obviously a major break with previous concepts of party democracy took place in 1921 with the ban on factions, and the open ascendancy of Stalin, the declaration of the theory of ‘socialism in one country’ and the initial defeats of the Trotskyist opposition stood on the shoulders of the defeats of party democracy circa 1921.’

    The temporary ban on organised factions (not discussion) was designed to stop the growing bureaucracy and petty bourgeois oppositions from organising potentially very powerful restorationist forces that had entered the party. With the end of the civil war the working class had, exhausted, stepped back from politics and the bureaucrats and careerists had moved in in their place. Krondstadt was a symptom of this. By 1924 it was clear that the game was more or less up for the internationalists in the leadership of the party and it was time to step outside that particular battle ground and try to rouse the masses to defend the revolution. It was hoped that after three years of rest the class might be ready once more for mass participation but further defeats for the world revolution had ensured it was not the case. It turned out that by then the Thermidor had been consumated and the Bolshevik perspective as articulated by Lenin and Trotsky vis international revolution had been defeated and replaced by the Stalinist theory of peaceful co-existence.

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  180. “The temporary ban on organised factions (not discussion) was designed to stop the growing bureaucracy and petty bourgeois oppositions from organising potentially very powerful restorationist forces that had entered the party”.

    Yes indeed. And as part of that, Stalin was put in charge of the ‘workers and peasants Inspectorate’ (Rabkrin) which was supposed to oversee and prosecute the struggle against bureaucracy.

    That really worked well, didn’t it? It was a stepping stone for Stalin to power and a tool for the emerging bureaucracy.

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  181. Right so back then it was possible to predict what Stalin would become or that a well known Bolshevik would end up being the strangler of the revolution and the old Bolsheviks. But wasn’t the struggle from 1921 to 1924 partly about trying to winkle Stalin out and wasn’t that the pact entered into by Lenin and Trotsky when they declared joint war on the bureaucracy shortly before Lenin’s death.

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  182. And where’s your evidence for the temporary ban on factions?
    As for there not being a ban on discussions when Shilapnikov raised the discussion in the Comintern three months after the Bolshevik congress, Lenin moved he be expelled, he only failed to win a two thirds majority by one vote, and Shilapnikov was only not expelled on condition that he did not raise the issues again.
    Jim you’re becoming positively eloquent, what’s going on? I’m not clear what the Commune has got to do with the discussion btw, but I’m sure that’s just a case of “dialectics”, you need to ask Gerry I’m sure its in his book – “The Refutation of Healy, the Dialectic and Cliff Slaughter Volume II”.

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  183. And of course we have the benefit of hindsight. We are able to look back on what happened and learn from experience. That’s the advantage of time and history.
    Just removing Stalin would not have made any substantive difference to events, another bureaucrat would simply have taken his place. In fact most of the reforms that Lenin advocated in his Testament, Better Fewer but Better etc. were implemented.
    They included as ID has pointed out the strengthening of the Workers and Peasants Inspection, a key, as it happened, tool for the growth of the bureaucracy and consolidation of the apparatus.

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  184. bill j ” … but I’m sure that’s just a case of “dialectics” … There IS a logic, methodology and trajectory to the participants views. So yes, it is dialectical, whether you mock the term for failure of recognition of its centrality to the theme. To paraphrase Trotsky, you make not recognise dialectics – but dialectics recognises you.

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  185. David Ellis

    “Right so back then it was possible to predict what Stalin would become or that a well known Bolshevik would end up being the strangler of the revolution and the old Bolsheviks”

    Never said that. But Rabkrin was an administrative body controlled by the party apparatus, and very far from being subordinated to any control from below. Its creation was very much an example of the use of bureuacratic methods to ‘defend’ the revolution. Which backfired.

    “But wasn’t the struggle from 1921 to 1924 partly about trying to winkle Stalin out and wasn’t that the pact entered into by Lenin and Trotsky when they declared joint war on the bureaucracy shortly before Lenin’s death.”

    Indeed it was. It was handicapped, however, by the concessions made to bureaucratism prior to that, and when Lenin was incapacitated and then died, by Trotsky’s inability to oppose Stalin in principle on banning factions etc, which Stalin could say (accurately) had been endorsed, and indeed initiated, by Lenin. This point is made in Mark H’s article.

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  186. `Indeed it was. It was handicapped, however, by the concessions made to bureaucratism prior to that, and when Lenin was incapacitated and then died, by Trotsky’s inability to oppose Stalin in principle on banning factions etc, which Stalin could say (accurately) had been endorsed, and indeed initiated, by Lenin. This point is made in Mark H’s article.’

    Banning organied factions was a necessary temporary measure taken by the internationalists to fight off bureaucratism and an emerging petty bourgeois restorasionist element that were slowly taking control of the party and state apparatus whilst they hoped the international revolution would eventually relieve the pressure. That Stalin turned a temporary emergency measure into a principle is hardly Lenin and Trotsky’ s fault. He’s have done it any way and found a different way of rationalising it. The Stalinist bureaucracy turned Lenin into some kind of god but as Trotsky said if he had lived he would have ended up in one of Stalin’s gulags and they’d have had to have found other ways to justify their rule other than being the continuers of Leninism which is now what you clearly agree is what they were.

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  187. “To paraphrase Trotsky, you make not recognise dialectics – but dialectics recognises you.”

    Hm. I’m all open to the demonstration of profound examples of logic embedded in the real world and social development, but we ain’t seen much of this kind of subtlety here. The interplay of subjective and objective factor is a rich medium for discerning complex forms of evolutionary logic, but what we have seen here seems rather objectivist and flatly mechanical, rather than truly dialectical.

    Perhaps a bit of meditation on the interplay of objective and subjective factors, particularly the relationship between such measures as the 1921 ban on factions, and the later rise of Stalin to power, might help.

    Without concretely demonstrating where such logical occurences exist in the real world, ‘its dialectical’ can often be translated as ‘it might be illogical, but don’t worry about that because I say so’ or words to that effect.

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  188. David Ellis

    “Banning organied factions was a necessary temporary measure taken by the internationalists to fight off bureaucratism and an emerging petty bourgeois restorasionist element that were slowly taking control of the party and state apparatus whilst they hoped the international revolution would eventually relieve the pressure.”

    So you don’t think it was a mistake then? Even a mistake made in difficult conditions when such mistakes are easy to make and hard to undo. Why the need to defend something that, it can be seen clearly now, was a key weapon used by the apparatus against the Left? It did not stop the bureaucracy, only the smaller left-wing trends in the party.

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  189. Agree ID. If adherence to this view is such a guarantee of sound method, how come people stretching from as far apart as Gerry Healy, Cliff Slaughter to Tony Cliff and Leon Trotsky have all agreed it?
    Indeed the Socialist Party and Workers Power both have the same position on the historical question – but still came up with quite different analyses of say the Lindsey Oil Dispute for example.
    And its a strange position indeed to say that banning factions was necessary to fight bureaucratism. I don’t think even Lenin claimed that. The fight against bureaucratism was being waged by the opponents of the ban on factions. These same opponents went on in large part to form the cadres of the Left Opposition.
    And provide proof that it was a temporary measure.
    Certainly not for Lenin (from what I’ve read) who never called for it to be lifted and in 1922 praised its effect in smashing the Workers Opposition.

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  190. id – “Without concretely demonstrating where such logical occurences exist in the real world, ‘its dialectical’ can often be translated as ‘it might be illogical, but don’t worry about that because I say so’ or words to that effect.” I readily agree with this comment and would consider it progressive to discuss the theme with this in mind. Materialist dialectics should neither be dogmatised or ridiculed as gobbledeegook.

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  191. `So you don’t think it was a mistake then?’

    No, and I don’t think Lenin and Trotsky led to stalinism either but I do have more sympathy for your outlook of `mistakes’ as opposed to billj’s assertion that Lenin and Trotsky first restored capitalism then led the Thermidor until Stalin, presumably by now to the left of Trotsky and the dead Lenin, established a deformed workers state because it doesn’t make any logical sense unless you are ditching Marxism but want to keep hold of some of Trotsky’s phraseology from a later period for purely pragmatic reasons until you can make the switch to Gramsci at a more leisurely pace.

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  192. Did Lenin and Trotsky ever make any mistakes? Or is the very idea “counter revolutionary”?

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  193. And that is the irony here. Billj thinks he is fighting the degeneration of marxism into cults and sects and bureaucratic sects when he is in fact a symptom of it.

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  194. `Did Lenin and Trotsky ever make any mistakes? Or is the very idea “counter revolutionary”?’

    But we are not talking about mistakes in general we are talking about specific alleged mistakes (Kronstadt, factions, etc) and you are not talking about mistakes at all but counter-revolutionary, anti-working class actions.

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  195. Emerging from the severe years of war communism, where many of the best cadres of lower level Bolshevism had readily placed themselves and had been wiped out in the front ranks on the front, the tendency to need to take a breather from all that want, led to certain adaptions by social layers in the country as a whole, to which, those of minimal resistance had made compromises. The realisation of this weighed heavily on Lenin’s mind and he sought to restrict the bureaucratic tendencies showing in innumerable ways, by starting from there, where he had less control and day to day influence. He, I believe, thought that he could control those in the Bolshevik leadership in the manner to which his authority had become accustomed to be accepted, it was not so with the Soviets, those layers tending toward the Left SR’s and Mensheviks. The bureaucratisation was filtering through many pores from bottom to top. Stalin and a layer around him became the focal point and harnessing stations to these human weak points and gradually (empirically) fed the quantity of discontent (when will the proletariat of Germany, France, Britain etc. rise up) why just us enduring all this hardship. Sages, who today, try to put their finger on a nodal point as a means to identify the qualitative point, or tipping point in the rise of the repressive bureaucracy as against the benign bureaucratic remnants of the preceding period cannot tell us really the source of the original sin. Internally and externally Russia was caught in a historical vice. Lenin and Trotsky were the best there was. Escape clauses or capsules are often screens for capitulation in tiredness of the modern fights.

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  196. “Sages, who today, try to put their finger on a nodal point as a means to identify the qualitative point, or tipping point in the rise of the repressive bureaucracy as against the benign bureaucratic remnants of the preceding period cannot tell us really the source of the original sin. Internally and externally Russia was caught in a historical vice. Lenin and Trotsky were the best there was. Escape clauses or capsules are often screens for capitulation in tiredness of the modern fights.”

    The real point of all this is not an intellectual exercise trying to re-analyse something which we cannot influence. Rather it is to learn lessons for today and trace the root of bureaucratism and sectarianism in the Trotskyist movement, which is a widespread phenonemon and an inheritance from the past.

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  197. ID: Trotskyist outfits have no more guarantee against degeneration than any others other than their adherence to the marxist method but if you think there is something specific to Trotskyist theory that means any Trot outfit will inevitably degenerate then please tell us what it is. For me the sign of degeneration is when Trot groups start looking into history for excuses not to be Trots anymore or start making up new theories or adopting those of others who have degenerated or are degenerate. But of course you have already convinced yourself that dropping Trotskyism or even Leninism is not the same as dropping Marxism so the arguments have no purchase with you.

    Nevertheless when you have traced the root of bureaucratism and sectarianism outside of the material conditions that obtained after the war in the Trotskyist movement let us know. It would be a truly fascinating discovery a bit like whatever was in that briefcase in Pulp Fiction or a magic bullet of some kind.

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  198. billj – Cliff didn’t argue that 1928 was a sudden breach, in fact in tackling Tortsky’s argument that such views as his ran the film of reformism backwards he was quite specific. By identifying capitalism with private property alone and insisting that Cliff’s theory be judged according to that metric, you are ruling it out without considering it.

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  199. Tony Cliff’s State Capitalism: “Seeing that state capitalism is the extreme theoretical limit which capitalism can reach, it necessarily is the furthest away from traditional capitalism. It is the negation of capitalism on the basis of capitalism itself. Similarly, seeing that a workers’ state is the lowest stage of the new socialist society, it must necessarily have many features in common with state capitalism. What distinguishes between them categorically is the fundamental, the essential difference between the capitalist system and the socialist system. The comparison of state capitalism with traditional capitalism on the one hand, and with a workers’ state on the other, will show that state capitalism is a transition stage to socialism, this side of the socialist revolution, while a workers’ state is a transition stage to socialism the other side of the socialist revolution.”

    Well now it follows that either there never was a workers state in Russia/USSR or there was a capitalist counter-revolution, which happened in 1928, according to Cliff, when the first five year plan began. This presents several major difficulties; It does equate the Bolsheviks with Stalinism, for instance. But it avoids the question, what property relations does the state guard and defend (as the source of its corrupt privileges here)? Since direct profit was not a motive the surplus was expropriated in the form of theft; the famous brown envelopes were a regular part of the privileges. So the proposition is that a new type of capitalist class defended the working class against the ravages of the free market by autarky in order to remain in power. Why not simply give way and make an agreement to jointly exploit the working class with international capital? Were they all like Nasser, brutal oppression but anti-imperialism and welfare to promote the rise of a new bourgeoisie? No, the collapse of the economy and the terrible fall in male life expectancy was a victory for neo-liberal world imperialism in 1989-91, which the SWP celebrated and Bill’s WP equivocated on. Not to say that you should support Yanayev in 1991, as he was a slower-motion restorationist like Deng in China but nationalised property relations did have benefits for the East European and USSR workers which they lost – the Berlin Wall fell to the right and not to the left, to capitalism and world imperialism and not to the international working class. That is the ideological confusion behind the collapse of this PR grouping

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  200. Agree with ID, its not a moral issue about Lenin and Trotsky, none of the participants in the various struggles were entirely “correct”, but they did have elements of correctness. And the anti-bureaucratic element of the platform of the DC and Workers Opposition were correct, both at the time and in hindsight.
    In other words not all the truth lay with Lenin and Trotsky – even when they happened to disagree (who was right then?) as they did fairly regularly.
    I know Cliff’s theory very well. Its essential fault is that the USSR from 1928 was not a capitalist economy and therefore it was not a capitalist state either. Whereas Lenin of course described the Russian state after 1921 as “state capitalist” as capitalism was restored in it.
    What all of the various proponents of this what might be called “orthodox” view have in common is, not anything particularly left wing – they have views ranging from support for Colonel Gaddaffi (WRP) to advocacy of Israel bombing Iran (AWL) – what they all have in common is that they are advocates of bureaucratic and hierarchical methods of party building, where the apparatus controls the group/party from the centre.
    Let’s take the issue of Lindsey. The adherence of the various left groups to “orthodoxy” makes no difference to their stand on it at all, the SP were for it Workers Power were against it, so were the SWP.
    In fact Gerry Downing/Workers Power position of abstention, denouncing the strikes, is in fact simply passive propaganda handing the strikers over to the racists and the fascists. But be that as it may, it was a bad tactical mistake, but nothing more.
    Its not however the first time that Workers Power have adopted a position like this. In the 2006 elections they favoured abstention in the struggle against fascism. They refused to vote for Labour candidates in elections where the fascists stood a chance of winning. This allegedly proved the need for a “new party”.
    An ultra left pose I’m sure most would agree.
    But what’s the impact of that on Jimp? Jimp disagrees with that position – I know he was always a keen advocate of voting Labour – yet he is now in an authoritarian group that demand that he lies about what he thinks and advocates a wrong line, both subjectively, he doesn’t agree with it, and as it happens objectively too, it is a line which is in principle wrong.
    How does he reconcile that with his membership of the group? Only by doing violence to his morals no doubt or more likely keeping his trap shut.
    And this is why this top down bureaucratic style of organisation inherited by Trotsky from the Lenin/Zinoviev Comintern has got to go.

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  201. Bill,
    You have a point about bureaucratic centralism and maybe we have not managed to elucidate or praxctice democratioc centralism but you have given up entirelyt in favour of an anti-communist libertarianism. And Jose Villa could have done with a little democracy internally and internatiopnally when he fought correctly against your regime and policies in the early 90s. No endorsement of his current reactionary politics.

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  202. I think you’ll find that WP voted Labour in 2010 and has many Labour Party members.
    It’s true that WP took a wrong position on TUSC but PR made the same mistake.

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  203. That you think the AWL and the WRP are or were orthodox trotskyists is both a lie on your part and a good indication that you have now broken from the marxist method. No doubt the AWL will pick up a few of your cast offs who prefer their anti-trotskyism a little less contradictory. By the way accusations of ultra left posing and sectarinism coming from you are a bit rich.

    The only thing Trotsky inherited from Lenin and Marx and Engels was the need to defend, develop and deploy the marxist method. If he’d inherited some hankering for top down bureaucratic style organisations he’d have thrown his lot in with Stalin.

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  204. Don’t change the question Jimp. In 2006 Workers Power abstained in seats where there was a threat of a fascist victory as they couldn’t bring themselves to vote Labour?
    Terrible huh?
    Not original sin certainly. But a very bad mistake.
    The WRP and AWL are certainly not orthodox Trotskyists. But they agree with you on the so called “orthodox” interpretation of this narrow historical question. Rather calls into question its inherent leftism of this position no?
    I like Trotsky but he wasn’t a god.

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  205. Bill – and I think the position WP took in 2006 was wrong. What’s your point exactly?

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  206. Or he could have used the Red Army to defeat Stalin but if he did that he would become Stalin, he said, which is incomprehensible if he already was Stalin, as Bill and his crew claim.

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  207. We are not talking about gods we are talking about leadership and method. What I find odd is that you could `like’ Trotsky despite his crimes against workers’ democracy. If the AWL agree with the `orthodox’ interpretation of this narrow historical question it is because they realise that you cannot claim to be any sort of Trotskyist let alone an orthodox one if you don’t because the contradictoriness of the position is to obvious for the franchise they’ve established but you are right it hasn’t stopped them ditching the theory of permanent revolution and believing that imperialism still has a progressive role to play but those things can be partially rationalised on an issue by issue basis.

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  208. Well you need to be careful you could be disciplined for saying that in public – although I doubt if you will be given that you’re arguing with me!
    They disciplined me for questioning whether social forums existed on a web board, when they didn’t exist. It was the “line”.
    My point is that this sect method which denies people the right to express internal differences externally is a key legacy of the Lenin/Zinoviev/Trotsky form of party building after 1921.
    Not that its anything to do with it, but would being a member of the Commune be preferable to being a member of an authoritarian sect? Of course it would.
    The uncomfortable truth for Gerry Downing and David Ellis is that this “orthodox” historical interpretation has been held by all the various left wing groups over the years no matter how right wing they in practice are.
    So there is nothing inherently left wing about it at all, but it is a good way of stifling debate and dissent, anyone who disagrees is labelled a “counter revolutionary”.

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  209. `The uncomfortable truth for Gerry Downing and David Ellis is that this “orthodox” historical interpretation has been held by all the various left wing groups over the years no matter how right wing they in practice are.’

    Because you couldn’t continue to call your self a trot otherwise and even these degenerates didn’t feel able to go as far as you have. But as you say the sects seem to have managed to almost disappear Trotskyism and the numbers defending his record so along you come and take the next big step in eradicating his influence.

    There is no principle in Lenin or Trotsky which denies the right to express internal differences externally either from before or after 1921.

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  210. You’re just wrong. Read any of the histories of the period and its absolutely clear that anyone who voiced differences after 1921 was disciplined, and in those days that meant something, deported, expelled, sacked, jailed.
    Trotsky was hidebound by his refusal to break the ban on factions. His constant vacillations throughout the 1920s and failure to take the fight outside the confines of the apparatus were exactly as a result of the bureaucratic limitations on dissent.

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  211. `His constant vacillations throughout the 1920s and failure to take the fight outside the confines of the apparatus were exactly as a result of the bureaucratic limitations on dissent.’

    Even if that were true, and of course it isn’t, it still wouldn’t make it wrong. At the time the decision was taken it was a necessary and correct measure to take in defence of the revolution and its principles as had been the introduction of NEP (capitalist restoration as you call it) and the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion.

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  212. bill j’s reasoning seems to a distant echo from Shachtman and Burnham’s position against Trotsky’s theory and Jim Cannon’s bureaucratic organisation.

    …“I have just read the article you and Burnham wrote on the intellectuals. Many parts are excellent. However, the section on the dialectic is the greatest blow that you, personally, as the editor of the New International, could have delivered to Marxist theory. Comrade Burnham says: ‘I don’t recognize the dialectic.’ It is clear and everybody has to acknowledge it. But you say: ‘I recognize the dialectic, but no matter; it does not have the slightest importance.’ Re-read what you wrote. This section is terribly misleading for the readers of the New International and the best of gifts to the Eastmans of all kinds. Good! We will speak about it publicly.”

    My letter was written January 20, some months before the present discussion. Shachtman did not reply until March 5, when he answered in effect that he couldn’t understand why I was making such a stir about the matter. On March 9, I answered Shachtman in the following words:

    “I did not reject in the slightest degree the possibility of collaboration with the anti-dialecticians, but only the advisability of writing an article together where the question of the dialectic plays, or should play, a very important role. The polemic develops on two planes: political and theoretical. Your political criticism is OK. Your theoretical criticism is insufficient; it stops at the point at which it should just become aggressive. Namely, the task consists of showing that their mistakes (insofar as they are theoretical mistakes) are products of their incapacity and unwillingness to think the things through dialectically. This task could be accomplished with a very serious pedagogical success. Instead of this you declare that dialectics is a private matter and that one can be a very good fellow without dialectic thinking.”

    By allying himself in this question with the anti-dialectician Burnham, Shachtman deprived himself of the possibility of showing why Eastman, Hook and many others began with a philosophical struggle against the dialectic but finished with a political struggle against the socialist revolution. That is, however, the essence of the question.

    The present political discussion in the party has confirmed my apprehensions and warning in an incomparably sharper form than I could have expected, or, more correctly, feared. Shachtman’s methodological skepticism bore its deplorable fruits in the question of the nature of the Soviet state. Burnham began some time ago by constructing purely empirically, on the basis of his immediate impressions, a non-proletarian and non-bourgeois state, liquidating in passing the Marxist theory of the state as the organ of class rule. Shachtman unexpectedly took an evasive position: “The question, you see, is subject to further consideration”; moreover, the sociological definition of the USSR does not possess any direct and immediate significance for our “political tasks” in which Shachtman agrees completely with Burnham. Let the reader again refer to what these comrades wrote concerning the dialectic. Burnham rejects the dialectic. Shachtman seems to accept, but … the divine gift of “inconsistency” permits them to meet on common political conclusions. The attitude of each of them toward the nature of the Soviet state reproduces point for point their attitude toward the dialectic.

    In both cases Burnham takes the leading role. This is not surprising: he possesses a method – pragmatism. Shachtman has no method. He adapts himself to Burnham. Without assuming complete responsibility for the anti-Marxian conceptions of Burnham, he defends his bloc of aggression against the Marxian conceptions with Burnham in the sphere of philosophy as well as in the sphere of sociology. In both cases Burnham appears as a pragmatist and Shachtman as an eclectic. This example has this invaluable advantage that the complete parallelism between Burnham’s and Shachtman’s positions upon two different planes of thought and upon two questions of primary importance, will strike the eyes even of comrades who have had no experience in purely theoretical thinking. The method of thought can be dialectic or vulgar, conscious or unconscious, but it exists and makes itself known.

    Last January we heard from our authors: “But it does not now, nor has anyone yet demonstrated that agreement or disagreement on the more abstract doctrines of dialectical materialism necessarily affects today’s and tomorrow’s concrete political issues …” Nor has anyone yet demonstrated! Not more than a few months passed before Burnham and Shachtman themselves demonstrated that their attitude toward such an “abstraction” as dialectical materialism found its precise manifestation in their attitude toward the Soviet state.

    To be sure it is necessary to mention that the difference between the two instances is rather important, but it is of a political and not a theoretical character. In both cases Burnham and Shachtman formed a bloc on the basis of rejection and semi-rejection of the dialectic. But in the first instance that bloc was directed against the opponents of the proletarian party. In the second instance the bloc was concluded against the Marxist wing of their own party. The front of military operations, so to speak, has changed but the weapon remains the same.

    True enough, people are often inconsistent. Human consciousness nevertheless tends toward a certain homogeneity. Philosophy and logic are compelled to rely upon this homogeneity of human consciousness and not upon what this homogeneity lacks, that is, inconsistency. Burnham does not recognize the dialectic, but the dialectic recognizes Burnham, that is, extends its sway over him. Shachtman thinks that the dialectic has no importance in political conclusions, but in the political conclusions of Shachtman himself we see the deplorable fruits of his disdainful attitude toward the dialectic. We should include this example in the textbooks on dialectical materialism.

    Last year I was visited by a young British professor of political economy, a sympathizer of the Fourth International. During our conversation on the ways and means of realizing socialism, he suddenly expressed the tendencies of British utilitarianism in the spirit of Keynes and others: “It is necessary to determine a clear economic end, to choose the most reasonable means for its realization,” etc. I remarked: “I see that you are an adversary of dialectics.” He replied, somewhat astonished: “Yes, I don’t see any use in it.” “However,” I replied to him, “the dialectic enabled me on the basis of a few of your observations upon economic problems to determine what category of philosophical thought you belong to – this alone shows that there is an appreciable value in the dialectic.” Although I have received no word about my visitor since then, I have no doubt that this anti-dialectic professor maintains the opinion that the USSR is not a workers’ state, that unconditional defense of the USSR is an “out-moded” opinion, that our organizational methods are bad, etc. If it is possible to place a given person’s general type of thought on the basis of his relation to concrete practical problems, it is also possible to predict approximately, knowing his general type of thought, how a given individual will approach one or another practical question. That is the incomparable educational value of the dialectical method of thought. From: http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/idom/dm/09-pbopp.htm

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  213. Bill – you publicly attacked the line of the group you were in, what do you expect?

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  214. Actually no I didn’t . I asked if social forums existed, where did they exist?
    You’re the one who’s publicly attacked the line of your group – what do you expect?
    Either way its perverse and bizarre and you’re welcome to it after all the sect life suits some people.

    And Ray there’s really no point slabbing long quotes down from In Defence of Marxism. For a start I agree with dialectical materialism.
    If you were serious you would actually take a look at Trotsky’s dialectics.
    Let’s take the question of A=A.
    Trotsky says A does not equal A. Hegel says A=A and A does not equal A. A=A and A = nothing.
    So who’s right?

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  215. There’s a world of difference between publicly attacking a group’s agreed tactics and saying that some of our PAST tactics were mistaken.

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  216. So if you ask where social forums exist when they don’t exist you should be disciplined, but if you say your group had a passive propagandist and unprincipled abstention from the anti-fascist struggle as recently as 2006 that’s OK?

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  217. read what I just wrote!

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  218. You wrote that they should have voted Labour in 2006 in seats where fascists were standing.
    Ergo by not voting Labour in 2006 where fascists were standing they were abstaining from the anti-fascist struggle. In an unprincipled way prioritising their sect tactics over the class interest.
    One thing follows from another. Like I said you’re in it now so you can’t say it now.

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  219. Like I said, the conf and the NC agree tactics for the PRESENT, not the past.

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  220. Trotsky says A does not equal A. Hegel says A=A and A does not equal A. A=A and A = nothing.
    So who’s right?`

    I think we’ll go with the materialist dialectic of Trotsky eh?

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  221. David – wait for Bill to call you a domatist!

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  222. But you’re not allowed to express your opinions externally, either way. I was in it a lot longer than you. Though like I said I’m sure you’ll be given an exemption on this occasion.

    Not necessarily. Hegel says A=A but only as an abstraction that is an unreal thing therefore A=A=nothing as abstractions don’t exist except ideally.

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  223. Gerry Downing – Well now it follows that either there never was a workers state in Russia/USSR or there was a capitalist counter-revolution, which happened in 1928, according to Cliff, when the first five year plan began.
    There was a workers state, it was eroded from the inside by the substitution of the bureaucracy for soviet power, a process that began early in the revolution and reached its conclusion in 1928. None of this is to equate the Bolsheviks with Stalinism, you’re just believing your own propaganda there.The new ruling class defended capitalist property relations in which it expropriated a surplus from the working class alienated from the means of production so as to compete with the West, until of course they did peacefully move over to individualised capitalist control after 1989, a process that would have been impossible without much greater social upheaval if there really had been a workers state still in control (the question about property relations should really be: how can there be a workers state if the working class have no control over the state or production?)

    billj – you are repeating your mistaken claim that Cliff thought the law of value didn’t apply to the USSR, which rested on partial quotation and not bothering to look at the following section of his book from the one you quoted. Here he is again:
    While the price of every commodity does not exactly express its value (this did not happen, except accidentally, even under individual capitalism) the division of the total product of society among the different classes, as also its allotment to accumulation and consumption is dependent on the law of value. Where the state owns all the means of production and the workers are exploited while the world economy is as yet disunited an atomised, this dependence receives its purest, most direct and absolute form.
    Russia wasn’t in all ways internally capitalist, just as private firms aren’t internally capitalist, but the international application of the law of value would make it so, as Captain Picard would say. This is another thing that I’ve always found flawed about degenerated workers state theories: that in an era where imperialism has spread capitalism round the world it posits that a state with a certain proportion of state ownership can just opt out of the influence of capitalism by an effort of will. And I find it quite ahistorical that in an era where capitalist relations of production have dominated the world,states that have blatantly not established new relations of production as we might see under socialism are considered to be some sepatate transitional arrangement .

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  224. Bill – and I’ve been a trotskyist a lot longer than you.

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  225. Private firms are internally capitalist, they produce commodities for exchange on a market. The USSR did not, even after accounting for the influence of competition with the (paradoxically) non-capitalist military production of the capitalist states.
    A dog which rolls in a pond. Is not a pond. It is a muddy dog. Its nature is influenced by the reality to external to it, but that reality is not changed essentially by that external reality.
    Cliff said that the USSR did not have the operation of the law of value internally, when abstracting from the military competition with the capitalist states. The point is that it did not have the law of value operating in it when accounting for the effect of that competition either.
    With or without military competition with capitalist states it was a centrally planned economy within which the law of value did not operate.
    I’m not just making this up there are literally countless studies confirming this point never mind Trotsky.
    Central planning was based on material balances not value categories. There was no sale or exchange of things on markets. Prices were not active signals in a market but passive units of account. There were no profits, no capital and no surplus value.
    Leaving Cliff’s theory to one side the question is did it have any empirical reality in the USSR and it did not.

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  226. `Not necessarily. Hegel says A=A but only as an abstraction that is an unreal thing therefore A=A=nothing as abstractions don’t exist except ideally.’

    Which is why we’ll stick to Trotsky’s materialist dialectic eh?

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  227. The dialectic of Trotsky, Lenin, Marx and Hegel incorporates the dialectic of Aristotle. The Aristotlean syllogistic reasoning makes identity its ‘law’. This is where formally, A=A, makes itself explicit. But here we are (and they were) considering the A as a representation of processes (capitalist state or workers state, for example) as undergoing continuous change (motion as the mode of existence of matter) A becoming nothing (re-cognised) but not A, thereby being something else or other than itself =A+. Consequently there arises something new out of a thing, a new concept. We could represent it +a but the symbolism is not the important import, but the consideration of the negation of the ‘old’ A through the emergence of the ‘new’ a. In answer to your question who right? – they both are.

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  228. The materialist dialectic did not reject Hegel’s dialectical method only his assertion that in showing the essence of reality it was showing the mind of God.
    Ideal types do exist – but only in thought, so A=A but only as A=A =0.
    Its deep.

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  229. The law of value did operate in the Soviet Union which is why the bureaucracy was constantly zig zagging between market reforms and the command economy. The economy was state capitalist in large part except, as with China now, private foreign capital has been invited to set up either in joint ventures or as autonomous tax payers but the state was a degenerated workers state. If state capitalism is a higher stage than private capitalism how did the Soviet Union collapse back into private capitailsm. This is how the SWP ended up cheering restoration in Russia instead of working out an indepndent policy for the working class.

    Either way we have two nominally Trotskyist outfits PR and SWP arguing for two different conceptions of the Soviet Union neither of which have anything to do with Trotskyism.

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  230. `The materialist dialectic did not reject Hegel’s dialectical method only his assertion that in showing the essence of reality it was showing the mind of God.
    Ideal types do exist – but only in thought, so A=A but only as A=A =0.

    Which is why we’ll stick with the materialist dialectics of Trotsky eh because in the material world A does not in the final analysis equal A.

    `Its deep.’

    Unfortunately you are not.

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  231. Not anything to do with your Trotskyism.

    The law of value did not operate under the central plan. See E Preobrazhensky The New Economics.

    “The law of proportionality of labour expenditure can manifest itself under commodity production only as the law of value, that is, as a law whose historical form of manifestation is merged with its sociological basis, that is, with regulation on the basis of labour expenditure. It is only because of this merging that the law of value reproduces precisely the relations of commodity economy, and it is only with the existence and development of these relations that it can function as regulator. Contrariwise, the disappearance and dissolution of the production relations of commodity economy dissolve the very basis of the existence and manifestation of the law of value as regulator. ” p21

    “It follows that we accumulate not on the basis of or parallel with the operation of the law of value, but on the basis of a desperate struggle against it, which in the social field means a growth in class contradictions with the exporting groups in the countryside, that is, mainly with its well to do strata.” p39

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  232. May not be deep – but at least I’ve a certain amount of acquaintance with what I’m talking about eh?

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  233. The ‘old man’ continued to explain until his assassination that the Stalinists were not DIRECTLY representing an existing capitalist class within the Union of Soviet Republics, but tendencies that continually aided the undermining of socialised ownership and distribution of the means of production, that helped form an administrative, bureaucratic state that had capitalist with near fascist aspects and tendencies, in the balancing of its own interests. But for capitalism to have overthrown the 1917 social revolution there, would, Trotsky said, have to be a dominant capitalist class with economic and social independence ‘within and over’ the state power. This never was the real formation. If that were true,Trotsky would have demanded and worked toward a ‘social AND political revolution’ against this re-established, main private ownership together with the state’s stewardship under Stalin’s formation and NOT essentially a political revolution to wrest political power back whilst retaining social ownership.

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  234. What’s that got to do with it Ray?

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  235. `May not be deep – but at least I’ve a certain amount of acquaintance with what I’m talking about eh?’

    I can see that you genuinely have no clue as to just how bird brained your `theories’ are coming across and no you do not know what you are talking about.

    `Lenin restored capitalism, Trotsky collaborated with him, Stalin overthrew capitalism and installed a degenerated workers state, Trotsky then became a Marxist and made a correct estimation of the Soviet Union but he never admitted his counter-revolutionary role. They should have stuck to War Communism. The End.’

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  236. I would actually descibre the Soviet union as a deformed workers economy and a state capitalist state, the opposite of David Ellis’ view. Paradoxically , the immense size of the Soviet empire made controlling it next to impossible, which actually aided the beauracracy to flourish and prevented a democratic accountable organisation to develop. The paradox being that lack of control aided the authoritarian command centre to widen its powers.

    A more ‘bottom up’ ethos would surely have been better but given the historic material conditions I guess this was next to impsssible too.

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  237. Here’s what Lenin had to say on “Freedom To Criticise and Unity of Action”;
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1906/may/20c.htm

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  238. Indeed, great article

    “Criticism within the limits of the principles of the Party Programme must be quite free (we remind the reader of what Plekhanov said on this subject at the Second Congress of the R.S.D.L.P.), not only at Party meetings, but also at public meetings. Such criticism, or such “agitation” (for criticism is inseparable from agitation) cannot be prohibited. The Party’s political action must be united. No “calls” that violate the unity of definite actions can be tolerated either at public meetings, or at Party meetings, or in the Party press.”

    Workers Power does not tolerate any public criticism of its decisions by its members whatsoever, in any forum public or party never mind the press! The only limitation here is on definite “calls” for action. Clearly my question whether social forums existed had nothing to do with a definite call for an action, this should have in Lenin’s words been “quite free”. Evidently the bureaucratic apparatus of Workers Power – no different it should be said from any of the other left groups – know little of Lenin before 1918.
    In April 1917 Lenin said that he would resign from the CC in order to use his rights as a rank and file member to campaign against the CC decision to support the provisional government.
    If Lenin had been a member of Workers Power he would have been forced to keep his trap shut of be expelled.
    Great you say. That’s democratic centralism. Never mind the counter revolution and wholesale slaughter.

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  239. Who was it who built up WP’s “bureaucratic apparatus”?

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  240. Dave Stocking. You’re a member you can ask him about it. Certainly not me I was never on it I’m glad to say.
    Lenin’s assertion of the importance of democratic rights in the period before the revolution, stands in sharp contrast to the practice of the all of the bureaucratic socialist groups today – all dominated by a caste of officials who run the organisation in their interest.
    A shameful situation. But in acknowledging it at least we’re starting to make progress.

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  241. There your point is correct, imho, but you are not now struggling to rectify this problem, although of course you may have done when you were still a Trotskyist in WP/PR – did you?. As some type of infantile “Left Communist” you never will now that you are orientated to the Swamp.

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  242. […] Marxist theory: AVPS on Gramsci, internal class divisions and the party; Alex Snowdon on the united front; Duncan Hallas on the united front; Tony McKenna on Lukacs and class consciousness; David Mitchell on autonomism versus democratic centralism; Permanent Revolution say it’s all Lenin’s fault. […]

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  243. That is precisly what we are trying to do- to show that the practice of the Bolsheviks before, during and after the revolution was much more democratic than what passes for Leninism on the left.

    It is useful to look at workers’ history and try to work out what led to what- however, the point stands above and beyond the historical debate.

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  244. Bill – when was this exactly?

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  245. …more or less when Mark was a full-timer?

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  246. If that wasd the only point I would gladly join a group with you Jason because I agree with you and Bill on thhe question of democratic centralism. But there’s all that infantile disorder stuff, the bombing of the Moscow CC, the attempted assassination of Lenin etc and the total lack of understanding of how the fate of ter revolution hung on world events – Lindsay oil was no abberation we can now see.

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  247. I’m not sure what you are referring to in terms of the bombing of the Moscow CC or the attempted assassination of Lenin.

    As far as I can see we have raised certain criticisms of Lenin in 1921 and this seems to you to be some kind of sin. Clearly the fate of the revolution mainly did hinge on world events- to be fair I have made this point several times and Mark’s article says clearly

    “The international context of this retreat was the ebbing of the revolutionary wave in Western Europe, after the end of the Russian-Polish war in which Russia ended up effectively “losing”. Lenin, who had tied the fate of the Russian Revolution to the success of the international revolution, was now determined to maintain the rule of the Bolshevik Party – to maintain its state power. His motivation seemed honourable and understandable – never give up.”

    And again
    “The background to the action taken by the Bolshevik leaders in 1921 was the objective development of the revolution – the famine in the country, the revolts by the peasantry, the strikes and political unrest, the ebbing of the revolutionary wave across Europe, the crisis in the institutions of both party and state.

    But while objective factors are crucial, the subjective factor, the human agency acting on and shaping the objective, is of enormous importance, particularly in a working class revolution where the importance of consciousness – that is, awareness of what you are doing and why – is so pivotal. It represents that most fundamental of Marxist precepts – action. If everything is objectively determined then we need not bother with action. But because it isn’t human action plays a pivotal role in history.”
    end of quote from Mark

    As for the Lindsey oil dispute your comment is very revealing. We saw that dispute as one where the central demand of the strike- defend jobs and conditions – could be supported by socialists who could make other less popular but winnable demands such as equal rights for migrant workers, unionise migrants, against immigration controls and racist division. I am guessing you had a different attitude to it than us- OK fair enough.

    But you are using that to make a quite different point- that somehow our mistake on Lindsey has something to do with our attitude to Bolshevism.

    It is back to the religious analogy as if once you question the resurrection of Christ all manner of sins can flow from that and somehow our attitude on something completely unrelated perhaps pre-marital sex can be read off from our attitude to the trinity- well it’s nonsense.

    Criticise us on Lindsey if you like. Criticise us by saying that the Bolsheviks were right to ban factions if you wish- but there is no holy mystical link between the two positions.

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  248. `But while objective factors are crucial, the subjective factor, the human agency acting on and shaping the objective, is of enormous importance, particularly in a working class revolution where the importance of consciousness – that is, awareness of what you are doing and why – is so pivotal.’

    Who needs politics when you have the will to power. This is the basis of apolitical sectarianism and propagandism.

    `As far as I can see we have raised certain criticisms of Lenin in 1921 and this seems to you to be some kind of sin.’

    Jason, this is why you are billj’s dupe in this discussion. Defending Lenin and Trotsky’s action in this period isn’t about hero worship and other unpleasantries it is about defending marxism. No doubt only a few weeks ago you thought the same and on other, subjectively chosen issues, not doubt that is still your opinion.

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  249. “Defending Lenin and Trotsky’s action in this period isn’t about hero worship and other unpleasantries it is about defending marxism.”

    You have not demonstrated that Lenin and Trotsky’s actions in banning factions were correct, and that any other course of action would be a break with Marxism. That is baldly asserted, but not substantiated. Again, this is a religious attitude comparable to papal infallibility, not a Marxist attitude which is predicated on logic and reason.

    Which other actions from the same period are beyond criticism?

    Lenin’s attempt to forcibly Sovietise Poland in response to Pilsudski’s attack (Trotsky opposed that)? Or perhaps Trotsky’s proposal to fully incorporate the trade unions into the state, which Lenin opposed?

    There is a real problem with saying that one response to a situation and only one is fully Marxist, particularly in a period like this when flawed decisions were common and in some cases leading protagonists opposed each other quite bitterly. This attitude does indeed appear to be a form of hero worship.

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  250. Well now let us look at the ‘measures’ in question. Consider them well at the time they were proposed and agreed upon and seriously balance prevailing conditions as far as you are competent, able or subjectively willing. http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/10thcong/ch04.htm In answer to ID’s specific questions I would suggest that to Lenin and Trotsky, from their geographic and sociological viewpoints (one in Moscow the other in the field) and all the data and information or lack of it, they as Marxists arrived at different estimations of arising problems and crises at understandably earlier or later times. … “In the system of war communism in which all the resources are, at least in principle, nationalized and distributed by government order, I saw no independent role for trades-unions. If industry rests on the state’s insuring the supply of all the necessary products to the workers, the trades-unions must be included in the system of the state’s administration of industry and distribution of products. This was the real substance of the question of making the trades-unions part of the state organizations, a measure which flowed inexorably from the system of war communism, and it was in this sense that I defended it.

    The principles of war communism approved by the ninth congress were the basis of my work in the organization of transport. The trade-union of railway men was closely bound to the administrative machinery of the department. The methods of military discipline were extended to the entire transport system. I brought the military administration, the strongest and best disciplined at that time, into close connection with the transport administration. This yielded certain important advantages, especially since military transport again assumed first importance with the beginning of war with Poland. Every day I went from the war commissariat, whose operations destroyed the railways, to the commissariat of transport, where I tried not only to save the railways from final collapse, but to raise them to a higher level of efficiency.

    The year of work in transport was a year in school for me. All the fundamental questions of socialist organization of economic life found their most concentrated expression in the sphere of transport. The great variety in the types of locomotives and cars complicated the work of the railways and the repair-shops. Extensive preparatory work was set on foot to standardize the transport system, which, before the revolution, had been con trolled equally by the state and by private companies. Locomotives were grouped according to class, their repair was more systematically organized, and the repair-shops began to receive precise orders based on their technical equipment. The programme for bringing the transport up to the pre-war standard was to be carried out in four and a half years. The measures adopted were a pronounced success. In the spring and summer of 1920, the transport system began to recover from its paralysis. Lenin never missed an occasion to remark the restoration of the railways. If the war started by Pilsudski in the hope that our transport system would collapse failed to yield Poland the expected result, it was because the curve of railway transport had begun to rise steadily upward. Those results were obtained by extraordinary administrative measures proceeding inevitably from the serious position of the transport system as well as from the system of war communism itself.

    But the working masses, who had gone through three years of civil war, were more and more disinclined to submit to the ways of military rule. With his unerring political instinct, Lenin sensed that the critical moment had arrived. Whereas I was trying to get an ever more intensive effort from the trades-unions, taking my stand on purely economic considerations on the basis of war communism, Lenin, guided by political considerations, was moving toward an easing of the military pressure. On the eve of the tenth congress, our lines crossed antagonistically. A discussion flared up in the party; it was actually beside the point. The party was considering the rate at which the trades-unions were to be converted into a part of the state mechanism, where as the question at issue was really one of daily bread, of fuel, of raw material for the industries. The party was arguing feverishiy about “the school of communism,” whereas the thing that really mattered was the economic catastrophe hanging over the country. The uprisings at Kronstadt and in the province of Tambov broke into the discussion as the last warning. Lenin shaped the first and very guarded theses on the change to the New Economic Policy. I subscribed to them at once. For me, they were merely a renewal of the proposals which I had introduced a year before. The dispute about the trades-unions instantly lost all significance. At the congress, Lenin took no part in that dispute, and left Zinoviev to amuse himself with the shell of an exploded cartridge. During the debate at the congress, I gave warning that the resolution on trades-unions adopted by the majority would not live until the next congress, because the new economic orientation would demand a complete revision of the trades-union strategy. And it was only a few months later that Lenin formulated entirely new principles on the role and purpose of trades-unions, based on the new economic policy. I expressed my unreserved approval of his resolution. Our solid front was restored. Lenin was afraid that as a result of the discussion, which had lasted two months, permanent factions would be established in the party, embittering relationships and making the work much more difficult “…. In the system of war communism in which all the resources are, at least in principle, nationalized and distributed by government order, I saw no independent role for trades-unions. If industry rests on the state’s insuring the supply of all the necessary products to the workers, the trades-unions must be included in the system of the state’s administration of industry and distribution of products. This was the real substance of the question of making the trades-unions part of the state organizations, a measure which flowed inexorably from the system of war communism, and it was in this sense that I defended it.

    The principles of war communism approved by the ninth congress were the basis of my work in the organization of transport. The trade-union of railway men was closely bound to the administrative machinery of the department. The methods of military discipline were extended to the entire transport system. I brought the military administration, the strongest and best disciplined at that time, into close connection with the transport administration. This yielded certain important advantages, especially since military transport again assumed first importance with the beginning of war with Poland. Every day I went from the war commissariat, whose operations destroyed the railways, to the commissariat of transport, where I tried not only to save the railways from final collapse, but to raise them to a higher level of efficiency.

    The year of work in transport was a year in school for me. All the fundamental questions of socialist organization of economic life found their most concentrated expression in the sphere of transport. The great variety in the types of locomotives and cars complicated the work of the railways and the repair-shops. Extensive preparatory work was set on foot to standardize the transport system, which, before the revolution, had been con trolled equally by the state and by private companies. Locomotives were grouped according to class, their repair was more systematically organized, and the repair-shops began to receive precise orders based on their technical equipment. The programme for bringing the transport up to the pre-war standard was to be carried out in four and a half years. The measures adopted were a pronounced success. In the spring and summer of 1920, the transport system began to recover from its paralysis. Lenin never missed an occasion to remark the restoration of the railways. If the war started by Pilsudski in the hope that our transport system would collapse failed to yield Poland the expected result, it was because the curve of railway transport had begun to rise steadily upward. Those results were obtained by extraordinary administrative measures proceeding inevitably from the serious position of the transport system as well as from the system of war communism itself.

    But the working masses, who had gone through three years of civil war, were more and more disinclined to submit to the ways of military rule. With his unerring political instinct, Lenin sensed that the critical moment had arrived. Whereas I was trying to get an ever more intensive effort from the trades-unions, taking my stand on purely economic considerations on the basis of war communism, Lenin, guided by political considerations, was moving toward an easing of the military pressure. On the eve of the tenth congress, our lines crossed antagonistically. A discussion flared up in the party; it was actually beside the point. The party was considering the rate at which the trades-unions were to be converted into a part of the state mechanism, where as the question at issue was really one of daily bread, of fuel, of raw material for the industries. The party was arguing feverishiy about “the school of communism,” whereas the thing that really mattered was the economic catastrophe hanging over the country. The uprisings at Kronstadt and in the province of Tambov broke into the discussion as the last warning. Lenin shaped the first and very guarded theses on the change to the New Economic Policy. I subscribed to them at once. For me, they were merely a renewal of the proposals which I had introduced a year before. The dispute about the trades-unions instantly lost all significance. At the congress, Lenin took no part in that dispute, and left Zinoviev to amuse himself with the shell of an exploded cartridge. During the debate at the congress, I gave warning that the resolution on trades-unions adopted by the majority would not live until the next congress, because the new economic orientation would demand a complete revision of the trades-union strategy. And it was only a few months later that Lenin formulated entirely new principles on the role and purpose of trades-unions, based on the new economic policy. I expressed my unreserved approval of his resolution. Our solid front was restored. Lenin was afraid that as a result of the discussion, which had lasted two months, permanent factions would be established in the party, embittering relationships and making the work much more difficult “…. http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/mylife/ch38.htm

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  251. I apologise for the cack-handed paste presentation

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  252. The platform of the Workers Opposition summed is very illustrative of this whole attitude to bureaucracy – and effectively the defence of bureaucratism by David Ellis, Gerry Downing, Jimp and co.

    “Every independent attempt, every new thought that had not passed through the censorship of our centre s considered as “heresy”, as a violation of the party discipline, as an attempt infringe on the prerogatives of the cdntre, which must “foresee” everything, and “decree” anything and everything….
    The harm in bureaucracy lies not only in the red tape, as some comrades want us to believe when they narrow the whole controversy to the “animation of Soviet institutions” but also in the solution of all problems not by means of an open exchange of opinions or by immediate efforts of all concerned, but by means of formal decisions handed down from the central institutions and arrived at either by one person or by an extremely restricted collective, some third person decides your fate, this is the essence of bureaucracy.”

    Its not hard to see the practice of the entire current left in this haughty bureaucratic method established in 1921.
    Of course the difference between Mark and Dave Stocking is Mark no longer believes in the bureaucratic method, Dave Stocking does. And Jimp defends it even though it appears he is aware it directly violates both the spirit and the letter of Lenin’s advice to the pre-revolutionary Bolsheviks and their practice as well.

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  253. All I am saying about Lindsey is that your attitude, not yours in particular but those of your leading spokespersons, which were un-contradicted (was that how your DC worked? If so ok by me) displayed a degree of workerism (pandering to the backwardness of that layer of workers) and a lack of internationalism. For example Italians, South Americans, French socialists had no trouble identifying the motives of those workers and condemning their strikes. And I am saying it is that an element of British nationalism (not to exaggerate it, but it is identifiable) was on display there and that is the political position from which you are approaching the question of 1921. You and Mark and Bill are saying, of course we recognise the importance of the international question but it really does not matter in the end, it was all Lenin’s fault. We are saying that it is the most crucial question; it is the dominant factor in the dialectic, if the Revolution was to advance to socialism it had to do so internationally. This ‘democracy’ is nonsense; a bourgeois democracy was not possible.
    The Mensheviks and the SRs fought with the counter-revolution and so were banned, the Left SR staged an uprising against the state and so were banned in July 1918, how could any revolutionary government could do anything else? The vast majority of their followers joined the Bolsheviks because they were obviously the revolutionary party. The peasantry found representatives who were prepared to champion their cause and re-introduce capitalism. Should the Bolsheviks have fought or succumbed to the laws of bourgeois reaction and ‘democracy’. I say they were right to fight, you say they should have allowed the peasantry to overwhelm the revolution.

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  254. `Lenin’s attempt to forcibly Sovietise Poland in response to Pilsudski’s attack (Trotsky opposed that)? Or perhaps Trotsky’s proposal to fully incorporate the trade unions into the state, which Lenin opposed?’

    You pick out examples that were later acknowledged as mistakes. Were they not also before 1921? So will you be moving Thermidor back even further before long as I think I predicted further up this thread.

    As for proving that these alleged `mistakes’ were not mistakes there is endless literature by Lenin and Trotsky and others explaining why they were justified. But surely the onus is on you to prove they were either mistakes or counter-revolutionary crimes. I think if you look back it has been justified by me and others why the actions of Lenin and Trotsky from 1921 to 1924 were correct.

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  255. The long quote from Trotsky on trade unions is not very illuminating. It has something of the character of a self-apologia for having put foward a disastrous position that incidentally also left him open to attack from elements in the bureaucracy who sought hypocritically to attack him for being hostile to workers’ political rights at the time he was really beginning to fight the bureaucracy.

    It does not add much to this discussion, nor does it provide even the slightest reason why Marxists should defend the ban on factions in the Bolshevik Party.

    Gerry Downing

    “The Mensheviks and the SRs fought with the counter-revolution and so were banned, the Left SR staged an uprising against the state and so were banned in July 1918, how could any revolutionary government could do anything else?”

    And the ban on factions in the Communist Party? What had that to do with the Mensheviks and SR’s? What had the DC’s and the Workers Opposition, who were the targets of the ban on factions, got to do with the Mensheviks and SR’s? Nothing at all, as far as I can see. Not that this necessarily implies endorsement of their views overall, but restricting their right to organise dissent had nothing to do with fighting counterrevolution.

    What is clear is that in a very difficult situation the central leaders understandably panicked and took decisions that aided the rise to power of the bureaucracy. These mistakes were understandable in the circumstances, but with the benefit of hindsight, they caused damage that had future consequences.

    There is no more reason not to criticise them and point out these errors, and it does not imply any hostility to the revolution to say so. Any more than pointing out the errors made by the Communards in 1871 implies hostility to the Commune and support for counterrevolution.

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  256. `Its not hard to see the practice of the entire current left in this haughty bureaucratic method established in 1921.’

    Nothing to do with imperalism or the general dominance of bourgeois thinking in a capitalist world then, just Lenin and Trotsky defending the first workers revolution against bureaucracy and petty bourgeois restorationism by use of a temporary ban on, not discussion, but organised factions and a load of stupid people subsequently repeating their mistakes for no apparent reason other than their stupidness.

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  257. ID: I think you should clarify your position in this debate. Did the Thermidor establish itself in 1921 under Lenin and Trotsky’s guidance or not and if not what are the alleged mistakes they made from 1921 and why do you characterize them as mistakes?

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  258. The dismissive methodology of ID, bill j and others to reject the available documentation of those times in those exceptional circumstances, suggests to me that they have absolutely no revolutionary communist projection in mind here. The ‘can of worms’ opened by Mark H’s piece bring echoes from both anarchist libcom mindsets and Kautsky’s ‘terrorism and communism’ – they want ‘freedom’ – there is no stopping them.

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  259. I agree ray, the gangrene looks fatal enough. It just shows that reality can never live up to the impossible standards of the propagandists or the apolitical sects.

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  260. Actually the Mensheviks and Left SRs were not banned through the course of the civil war, at various times they were banned and then unbanned. The paradox is that they were only totally banned after the civil war was over.
    I must admit I share your despair Ray/David/Gerry/Jimp.
    The gangrene seems not so much fatal as have completely rotted the capacity for independent thought. Not one of you has come up with a single original or independent idea. Most of what you have written is internally contradictory and externally contradictory too, have been refuted by Lenin and Trotsky amongst others elsewhere.
    As for your contemptuous dismissal – what else can you call it – of the oppositionists in the Democratic Centralists and Workers Opposition – it is all too reminiscent of Stalin’s contemptuous brushing away of Trotsky.
    But what can you do – an orthodoxy that embraces the Sparts, Healyites, Cliffites, AWL and assorted others can’t really have that much going for it now can it?

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  261. `Not one of you has come up with a single original or independent idea.’

    Hardly surprising since original ideas are as rare as hen’s teeth unless they are of the variety you are presenting: Lenin and Trotsky were counter-revolutionaries from 1921 onwards until Trotsky became a Marxist again though he managed to do that without once acknowledging his responsibility for the restoration of capital and the crushing of workers democracy and the adoption of a model of party building which contains a built in guarantee of degeneration though we won’t tell you what is. Original ideas like that I can come up with everyday and often enjoy in programmes like Shooting Stars.

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  262. `Not one of you has come up with a single original or independent idea.’

    Hardly surprising since original ideas are as rare as hen’s teeth unless they are of the variety you are presenting: Lenin and Trotsky were counter-revolutionaries from 1921 onwards until Trotsky became a Marxist again though he managed to do that without once acknowledging his responsibility for the restoration of capital and the crushing of workers democracy and the adoption of a model of party building which contains a built in guarantee of degeneration though we won’t tell you what is. Original ideas like that I can come up with everyday and often enjoy in programmes like Shooting Stars.

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  263. `But what can you do – an orthodoxy that embraces the Sparts, Healyites, Cliffites, AWL and assorted others can’t really have that much going for it now can it?’

    I take it then that the whole of Trotsky is now out of bounds to you and look forward to you changing your name double quick.

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  264. David Ellis:

    “Did the Thermidor establish itself in 1921 under Lenin and Trotsky’s guidance or not and if not what are the alleged mistakes they made from 1921 and why do you characterize them as mistakes?”

    I think it is arguable that Thermidor was an drawn out and uneven process, and the bureaucracy seized power not at once, but by degrees, in a series of confrontations with its enemies that lasted from around 1921 to the Moscow trials, when it finally was able to wipe out its enemies. Trotsky prior to 1933 did not agree with Trotsky after 1933 as to when Thermidor was, so why should his post-1933 position be sacrosanct? And in considering such processes, the Thermidor analogy itself begins to reveal its limitations.

    And the best way to put forward a ‘revolutionary communist projection’ is to promote programmatic and historical discussion to uncover where the left has made error, and thus hopefully rectify them in the interest of the future of the left. In that sense, Mark H’s has done a service with this thought provoking article.

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  265. “And the best way to put forward a ‘revolutionary communist projection’ is to promote programmatic and historical discussion to uncover where the left has made error, and thus hopefully rectify them in the interest of the future of the left. In that sense, Mark H’s has done a service with this thought provoking article.”

    Page 1 comrades, page 1.

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  266. “an orthodoxy that embraces the Sparts, Healyites, Cliffites, AWL and assorted others can’t really have that much going for it now can it?”
    Well now bet you did not think you would find yourself to the right of all these groups even 6 months ago

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  267. ‘As for your contemptuous dismissal – what else can you call it – of the oppositionists in the Democratic Centralists and Workers Opposition – it is all too reminiscent of Stalin’s contemptuous brushing away of Trotsky’. Stalin’s clique were never contemptuous of Trotsky they were petrified of his critique for their own interests. The false analogy with the earlier formations simply confirms the political disorientation shown here.

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  268. ID says: … “Trotsky prior to 1933 did not agree with Trotsky after 1933 as to when Thermidor was, so why should his post-1933 position be sacrosanct? And in considering such processes, the Thermidor analogy itself begins to reveal its limitations.” Well ID Marxism makes no claim to infallibility or soothsaying guesswork. Trotsky again on method: …”It would therefore be a piece of monstrous nonsense to split with comrades who on the question of the sociological nature of the USSR have an opinion different from ours, insofar as they solidarize with us in regard to the political tasks. But on the other hand, it would be blindness on our part to ignore purely theoretical and even terminological differences, because in the course of further development they may acquire flesh and blood and lead to diametrically opposite political conclusions. Just as a tidy housewife never permits an accumulation of cobwebs and garbage, just so a revolutionary party cannot tolerate lack of clarity, confusion and equivocation. Our house must be kept clean!

    Let me recall for the sake of illustration, the question of Thermidor. For a long time we asserted that Thermidor in the USSR was only being prepared but had not yet been consummated. Later, investing the analogy to Thermidor with a more precise and well deliberated character, we came to the conclusion that Thermidor had already taken place long ago. This open rectification of our own mistake did not introduce the slightest consternation in our ranks. Why? Because the essence of the processes in the Soviet Union was appraised identically by all of us, as we jointly studied day by day the growth of reaction. For us it was only a question of rendering more precise an historical analogy, nothing more. I hope that still today despite the attempt of some comrades to uncover differences on the question of the “defense of the USSR” – with which we shall deal presently – we shall succeed by means of simply rendering our own ideas more precise to preserve unanimity on the basis of the program of the Fourth International.” – from ‘The USSR in War’ – 1939

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  269. Stalin was petrified of Trotsky’s critique. More myth making masquerading as analysis. The affect of gangrene no doubt.
    As for being to the right of the Sparts and Healyites – what’s there to be afraid of about that?

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  270. And of course, there is a real problem with quoting great slabs of Trotsky in the absence of an argument. It makes you like a religious sectarian quoting holy writ.

    The idea that Permanent Revolution is to the right of the social-imperialist Alliance for Workers Liberty, is completely bizarre, and religious. Just as if one pays homage to the Pope’s authority you can be forgiven for grotesque and unspeakable abuses as evidenced by scanning the news, simply for paying lip-service to Lenin’s infallible authority, you can be forgiven for cheering on Zionism and imperialism in the Middle East, it seems.

    Well, I think the AWL’s Zionism/Islamophobia, pro-imperialism and counterrevolutionary political views on the contemporary world place them far to the right of Permanent Revolution. It also places them to the right of many of the Liberal Democrats for that matter.

    If you place the AWL to the left of PR because of their views of this, then logically you should also put Stalin himself to the left of PR. Both Stalin and the AWL pay or paid uncritical homage to Lenin of this period, while crapping over everything Lenin stood for as a revolutionary in the real world.

    I speak as someone with considerable differences with PR, particularly on Labour loyalism and also projects like Respect, among other things.

    Gerry and co have a very strange view of political reality, characteristic of a quasi-religious view of Lenin and Trotsky that has some parallels with the Stalinist cult of Lenin.

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  271. ID: Of course you are now free not to worship at the feet of Trotsky or Lenin but in reality what that means is that you are free of Marxism as a method. You are free to agree with Marxism when it agrees with you and disagree with it when it doesn’t.

    On this issue PR are to the right of the pro-imperialist AWL there is no doubt for the time being at least but without the Marxist method to at least check your progress against then who knows where you might end up. Cheer leading an imperialist backed assault on `imperialist’ China by semi-colonial India perhaps? Backing the `democratic’ overturn of the degenerate workers’ state by restorationist bureaucrats and their US and national bourgeois backers? These are just possible examples.

    Presumably the Marxist theory of value is something you have assimilated critically and will defend against all-comers. Does that make you a `religious’ sectarian or sycophant quoting from the Marxist bible?

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  272. Basically not even the disgusting AWL have had the nerve to ditch the analysis and practices of Lenin and Trotsky circa 1921 to 1924 on the big issues under dispute here for fear that they would clearly lose their franchise and their ability to pull the wool over the eyes of young people on other issues if they did.

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  273. “On this issue PR are to the right of the pro-imperialist AWL there is no doubt for the time being at least but without the Marxist method to at least check your progress against then who knows where you might end up.”

    I think this meant to say ‘to the left’ – otherwise the point does not make sense.

    Marx’s labour theory of value is a coherent tool for analysing the capitalist economy. It is possible to use that tool without needing to reproduce great slabs of Marx prose. That is hardly true of the justifications for Lenin’s 1921 errors here, which is why quote-mongering really is all they can do.

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  274. I think most young people who I have anything in common with are far more likely to be repulsed by the AWL’s chauvinism than by a dissident view about one aspect of the history of the Russian Revolution. This really is scratching around for something to say.

    But you obviously think Sean Matgamna is a better revolutionary than Shylnyapnikov, Ossinsky or Kollontai.

    If you don’t think that, then your points make no sense.

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  275. ID: to the right is what I said and what I meant. On the particular issues under discussion on this thread PR are to the right of the AWL.

    The AWL’s chauvinism is indeed repulsive but they are chauvinists not because they are trotskyists but because they have broken from trotskyism on some very key, major points. Nevetheless their formal declaration of fealty to Trotskyism, which they can only claim if they continue to defend the actions of the Bolsheviks from 1921 to 1924, allows them to attract people repulsed from the left by Stalnism and recruit them to a position to the right. Just as Stalinism, squatting on the bones of the revolution were able to attract millions whilst shafting them.

    That PR have come along and feel confident to trash the reputation of Lenin and Trotsky from 1921 to 1924 demonstrates just what damage the sects have done to the reputation of Trotskyism and just how marginalised they have managed to make Trotskyism in the so-called Troskyist movement. PR’s position marks a new degeneration in the already degenerate sects that have dismembered the Fourth International since WWII.

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  276. David Ellis

    “without the Marxist method to at least check your progress against then who knows where you might end up. Cheer leading an imperialist backed assault on `imperialist’ China by semi-colonial India perhaps? Backing the `democratic’ overturn of the degenerate workers’ state by restorationist bureaucrats and their US and national bourgeois backers? These are just possible examples”

    This is nonsense but perhaps instructive because it shows how David’s argument works.

    1) Just because we have criticised Lenin does not mean we have abandoned Marxism- that false syllogism is purely in your head (well OK Gerry’s as well)

    2) Marxism is not some infallible guide to all questions anyway it is based on using reason, evidence and constructing tactics within on overall strategy. Of course it is a useful model for understanding the world but the idea that if you question one thing everything else falls is evidence not of science or reason but totalitarianism or religious belief. And just to reiterate questioning or disagreeing with Lenin or Trotsky is not questioning Marxism either- the idea of Lenin as the infallible leader was a myth constructed by Stalin.

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  277. By the way the quotes and analyses that ray is posting are both relevant to the events we are examining and to the more general matters of method that this discussion has generated. They are not presented as holy writ but because they talk to the matters in hand.

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  278. `1) Just because we have criticised Lenin does not mean we have abandoned Marxism- that false syllogism is purely in your head (well OK Gerry’s as well)’

    Believe me, anybody who condemns the putting down of the Kronstadt rebellion has joined the ranks of the petty bourgeois opposition to the revolution itself whether they characterise it as a mistake or a crime.

    Where is the syllogism you are talking about above?

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  279. David Ellis

    “to the right is what I said and what I meant. On the particular issues under discussion on this thread PR are to the right of the AWL.”

    Sorry, I assumed you were talking about the AWL’s support for imperialism.

    I actually think that support for imperialism is the line dividing class traitors from communists. Not agreement with a measure limiting the rights of members of a revolutionary communist party in power to organise a fight for a distinct position within the framework of communism.

    I repeat, the logic of your position on this is that you are more sympathetic to the views of the AWL than you are of the Workers Opposition and Democratic Centralists.

    If you do not actually think that – and I assume you do not if you sit and think about it – you have got yourself into a strange logical mess.

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  280. Well petty bourgeois opposition to the revolution at the time was as pro-imperialist as anything the AWL are coming up with today. No, PR have not yet advanced a pro-imperialist line on any contemporary issue (a mistaken analysis of China could rectify that in time) and are, therefore, to the left of the AWL on many things today as are anarchists and other assorted centrists and sects. But, they are criticising Lenin and Trotsky here from a right wing anti-revolution position and ditching the Trotskyist and Lenninist methods as Marxism in such a way that if they were correct none of Trotsky’s analysis post 1921 could be defended with any credibility. Trotskyism as the continuation of the marxist method, as its application from 1921 to 1940 has effectively been repudiated. That could lead them eventually to take positions to the right of gengis khan in the future. Who knows. We can know that without a correct method they will mis-lead.

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  281. Well petty bourgeois opposition to the revolution at the time was as pro-imperialist as anything the AWL are coming up with today. No, PR have not yet advanced a pro-imperialist line on any contemporary issue (a mistaken analysis of China could rectify that in time) and are, therefore, to the left of the AWL on many things today as are anarchists and other assorted centrists and sects. But, they are criticising Lenin and Trotsky here from a right wing anti-revolution position and ditching the Trotskyist and Lenninist methods as Marxism in such a way that if they were correct none of Trotsky’s analysis post 1921 could be defended with any credibility. Trotskyism as the continuation of the marxist method, as its application from 1921 to 1940 has effectively been repudiated. That could lead them eventually to take positions to the right of gengis khan in the future. Who knows. We can know that without a correct method they will mis-lead.

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  282. “Believe me, anybody who condemns the putting down of the Kronstadt rebellion has joined the ranks of the petty bourgeois opposition to the revolution itself whether they characterise it as a mistake or a crime.”

    Trotsky himself said that the putting down of the Kronstadt revolt was a ‘tragic necessity’ – which rather implicitly displays a degree of unease about it. He also tried later to distance himself from the direct personal participation in the suppression and reprisals attributed to him by many (see his writings about this in the mid-1930s).

    The Mark H article does not appear to take a position that the Kronstadt events were either a heroic uprising or a reactionary rebellion. It does however mark the events as an important part of what he says is Thermidor. In my view this could be said without necessarily endorsing the uprising itself. It is not clear that this is the position argued.

    The various partisan Anarchist and Bolshevik accounts of the uprising stress either the leftist elements involved or the reactionary elements who were also involved, according to sympathies.

    My suspicion is that the truth was somewhere in between – that there were ill-advised leftist elements reacting against the bureaucratisation of the revolution centrally involved in this, and that the fissure that Kronstadt represented was exploited by reactionaries who assuredly had people in place to exploit the situation.

    What is vaguely disturbing is not so much the effort that was made to subdue the mutiny, but the reprisals afterwards – with those involved, even of a leftist persuasion, being shot without due process. That was certainly a precedent used later against others. And also the use of this to justify the ban on organised dissent within the Communist Party.

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  283. “That could lead them eventually to take positions to the right of gengis khan in the future.”

    On the other hand, there are Red-Brown elements in Russia right now, who would tend to agree with you on this, and yet have positions that are comparable with Genghis Khan.

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  284. After all has been said … and not done. We should I think, consider the legacy of ‘Revolution Betrayed’ insofar as that document provided both a balance sheet of the culmination of the Thermidor/Stalinist development alongside the revolutionary belief and confidence in the progressive nature of the working class by Trotsky. Only by starting from the here and now with revolutionary confidence can a leader make his or her contribution in the necessary spirit of the times. Looking for – ‘where did it all start to go wrong?’ or ‘are we all or partially blighted by this non-recognition in our secular Trotskyist DNA’ – will provide only alibi’s for putting a hold on facing reality and avoid giving the required leadership. Is that what you really want? Meanwhile today and tomorrow cannot wait for the navel-gazing contemplation of yesterday if it simply results in atrophied monster making – workers are contemptuous of this – meanwhile the Stalinists, Social-Democrats and Trade Union ‘tops’ do their worst work.

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  285. Well, I don’t see this as navel-gazing. Given the ruinous sectarianism and bureaucratism that disfigures the far left, and renders it harmless to the bourgeoisie but often very harmful to people who join it, debating where this comes from logically and historically seems important to me. Not that all the answers can come from discussions like this, but some pointers as to how to do things better might just be possible.

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  286. Is this a lack of confidence in one’s own position within one’s own organisation? I say that because you, ID, say: it, ‘sectarianism and bureaucratism (absolutely) renders it harmless to the bourgeois … but often (relatively) very harmful to people that join it …’ . Do your own things better – if you are currently convinced you (your group or party) have a correct perspective! Don’t try to forge unanimity where there cannot be one.

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  287. I’m not in favour of forging unanimity by any means apart from free discussion and persuasion. In fact other methods do not work anyway – they just produce political road-kill — more and more splits and fragmentation. And I’m quite willing to be convinced by people who have something persuasive to say. Nor am I currently a member of any far left group, though I have been in the past. Have also been involved in a number of broad party initiatives – SLP, Socialist Alliance and Respect – in each case these were damaged by various bureaucratic and political weaknesses that exit on the left.

    There are many independents around on the left who don’t fit into any sect. A broad, open, democratic and radical left party could draw in many of them, and probably multiply the number of organised socialists by a factor of at least three or four.

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  288. As the central point of Mark’s article defended by Bill and Jason that we found so offensive was to rubbish the revolutionary integrity of Lenin and Trotsky I propose this thesis:

    “We defend the heritage of the Russian Revolution and critically support the revolutionary thrust of the first four Congresses of the Third Communist International before the victory of counter-revolutionary Stalinism when the theory of socialism in a single country was imposed in 1924. In particular we defend the revolutionary integrity of its two great central leaders, Lenin and Trotsky, in making and defending that revolution and fighting for the world revolution at all times.”

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  289. Strange idea, a motion defending someone’s ‘revolutionary integrity’. And implicitly saying that critics are hostile to the Russian Revolution. It almost seems like a guilty plea to the charge of cultism. I suspect Lenin and Trotsky themselves have would been embarrassed by such a motion.

    This amounts to a loyalty oath to two long-dead revolutionaries. Very strange. I somehow don’t think that is going to win anyone to Marxism. It might just convince a few more that Marxism is an ancestor worshipping-cult, not a guide to action and a means to change the world.

    Lenin and Trotsky’s words are in print. They speak for themselves. If you want to defend their reputation against modern critics, come up with better arguments than the critics. If such arguments exist. Simples.

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  290. It is not a question of defending every action but one of method. The SWP has no programme it makes its policies on the hoof and Lenin and Trotsky are useful ocassional reference points. Bur do no tie us down to opposing popular fronts, for instance. Because George in the past and Tony today might get us a few votes and if that compromises the class independence of the working claaa who cares as opng as the ‘struggle’ gets going?

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  291. “Programme first” says Trotsky, short term advantage for the group say the SWP et al. The struggle for the revolution has a history and a logic; it imposes a disciplin like defend North Korea against imperialist assault, no matter how unpopular that might be. And yes the unfashionable Kronstadt defence which allows you to call yourself a communist

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  292. What are you on about Gerry? The SWP agree with your defence of the “orthodoxy” get with the programme!

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  293. billj: you really have split with Trotskyism, i.e. Marxism, now haven’t you. There is not a word or an argument or an action of his that you can approvingly quote or defend from now on without being accused of `orthodoxy’ as you childishly accuse others of being like some sect or cult however tenuous their links with Trotskyism have become.

    Come on billj tell us which bits of Trotskyism you still adhere to in an `orthodox’ manner.

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  294. I’ve got an alternative resolution for you David/Gerry/jimp/Ray et al

    “We uncritically support everything Lenin and Trotsky ever did, even when they disagreed with each other and changed their minds later and anyone who thinks different is a counter revolutionary, gangrenous, swivel eyed Nazi, wading though a swamp.”

    How about that?

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  295. ID: `Given the ruinous sectarianism and bureaucratism that disfigures the far left.’

    These are problems, particularly the latter, associated with imperialist capitalism not the far left. They are a problem for the far left not of the far left but you and PR are insistent that sectarianism and bureaucratism is inherent in Trotsky and Lenin but you still refuse to say what precisely was wrong with NEP, the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion in principle, the temporary ban on factions. Show us where the Marxist method was abandoned by Lenin and Trotsky from 1921 to 1924. This was a period when revolutionary socialists with an internationalist perspective still had a grip on power however tenuous before being forced into opposition. Billj reckons these people were renegades of the revolution from 1921. What do you think?

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  296. billj: Stop ducking the issue with your idiotic childishness. Tell us which bits of Trotskyism you still adhere to in an `orthodox’ manner or simply admit you are no longer a Trot. Nobody will mind if you are honest.

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  297. Oh and I forgot to add;

    “…and it is the duty of all revolutionaries to unsparingly post rude and abusive comments about the counter-revolutionary, gangrenous and swivel eyed Nazi swamp at every opportunity in the blogosphere, while explaining the links between Lenin and Trotsky the ban on factions, Cliff Slaughter’s dialectics, the election campaign of Corin Redgrave, contribution of Metazaros and revolutionary continuity embodied in the assembled throng. The throng recognise the historic nature of this decision.”

    Passed unanimously (wild clapping, applause and cheers). Hurrah!

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  298. Which Tony are you talking about, Gerry? Blair or Benn? I never advocated votes for Blair. Mind you, that issue is a bit off-topic here.

    And support for Galloway against New Labour was a question of principle, given that the issue was ‘which side are you on’ on a matter of a major imperialist war in which New Labour drove through against very widespread popular opposition.

    Galloway was the only major figure in Labour with the guts to go for the jugular over this – the war-criminal leadership expelled him because it considered him dangerous. Not to support him was in my view a betrayal.

    In fact, over questions like that, I tend to quite like the approach taken by Trotsky over anti-imperialism, like how those who fail to respond correctly ‘should be branded with infamy, if not with a bullet’. Thinking particularly of the AWL and their pro-war friends. But PR were a bit weak on that,in my opinion. And Gerry Downing also, evidently.

    Kronstadt is hardly fashionable or unfashionable today. I might add that such individuals as Deustcher (who was not averse to supporting repression against those he considered to be ‘counter-revolutionary’, e.g. East German and Hungarian workers) considered the Bolsheviks accusation of counterrevolution against the Kronstadt mutineers to be ‘groundless’. (The Prophet Armed) He may have been mistaken, of course, but he did have some real knowledge of the situation. This is a question that is open to debate – within the framework of communism.

    Actually, it seem to me that there were far more grounds to accuse Polish Solidarnosc of being pro-capitalist and counterrevolutionary than was the case at Kronstadt. At least according to the formal programmes of each.

    The Kronstadt list of demands explicitly forbade the employment of wage labour – and was thus less conciliatory to capitalism than NEP – ‘NEPmen’ were allowed to employ wage labour.

    Whereas Polish Solidanosc actually called for the establishment of a stock market in Stalinist ruled Poland in the 1980s, and for Poland to join the IMF and World Bank.

    Personally, I think repression was wrong in both cases, for different reasons.

    Kronstadt may have been ill-advised and it is not outrageous to say that it could,in those conditions, have ignited a civil conflict between different sections of Russian revolutionaries, instead of simply between revolutionary workers and the emerging bureaucracy.

    This premature character may well have played into the hands of the counterrevolution – though much of the responsibility for this lies with those who refused to negotiate with the Kronstadt militants, who were alienated comrades, not enemies of the revolution.

    And of course, repression against Solidarnosc in the 1980s was competely counterproductive and did nothing to challenge the illusions in religion and capitalist democracy that drove large number of Polish workers to support the movement.

    But as to which was pro-capitalist and which was not, that is pretty obvious if you look into it.

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  299. billj: clearly you have no intention of engaging with this debate. A rational discussion is beyond your emotionally motivated decision to break with revolutionary marxism.

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  300. “Billj reckons these people were renegades of the revolution from 1921. What do you think?”

    That is not the position in Mark’s article,if you read it. It is much more nuanced than that. I have no reason to believe that Bill J disagrees with those nuances.

    Setting up straw men and knocking them down is not a good method of argument. Better to criticise people’s actual views than a pointless caricature. That way, you may generate some light instead of heat.

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  301. ID: Are you reading billj’s comments in this thread? I have set up no straw men but you are clearly hearing only what you want to hear.

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  302. I am reading them pretty closely. He is reacting with sarcasm and ridicule to your repeated setting up of straw men. Perhaps it would be good for both of you to chill out a little;-)

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  303. No ID he has said that Lenin reintroduced capitalism, smashed soviet democracy and, if he hadn’t died would have taken the role of Stalin. Trotsky didn’t because he wasn’t a `good organiser’. Unlike Jason, who’s position is anti-revolutionary enough, billj doesn’t characterise these actions as mistakes.

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  304. Take that up with Bill J. I don’t read it that way, and would rather discuss the issues themselves than waste time refuting one person’s dubious view of a third person’s argument.

    That really is a waste of time.

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  305. ID: OK, let’s be as plain as we can be then:

    Were the policies pursued and/or defended by Lenin and Trotsky between 1921 and 1924 correct in principle (NEP, Kronstadt, temporary ban on organised factions) and pursued in good faith to defend the revolution against Thermidor and/or counter-revolution or were they responsible for, and did they lead directly to, Stalinism?

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  306. Have you not bothered to read anything that has been written above? Why should I bother to repeat what I have already said several times?

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  307. What do you think about the fact that the economic demands of Kronstadt was to the left of NEP, i.e. it was in favour of a ban on employing wage Labour?

    What do you make of the fact that Trotsky’s celebrated biographer, Isaac Deutscher, considered that the allegations of counterrevolution against Kronstadt were ‘groundless’?

    What do you think about the fact that Polish Solidarnosc, who your apparent co-thinker Gerry Downing has a political record of supporting (when he was a Healyite – and has never to my knowledge criticised them about) called for the establishment of a stock market in 1980s Stalinist-ruled Poland, whereas so-called ‘counterrevolutionary’ Kronsdadt was in favour of the outright prohibition of small traders etc. employing wage labour?

    Considering that you claim that Kronstadt represented petty0-bourgeois reaction, how can you reconcile this demand, which is 100% against the interest of small exploiters, and notably to the left of NEP which was far more petit-bourgeois in its social content, legalising this kind of petty exploitation?

    Why don’t you address these questions, that I have already raised, and instead try to divert this discussion into some crappy yomp about what Bill J does or does not mean in his blog comments?

    You simply appear to be unable to address these questions in a normal political manner. That is because your Trot-cultism is anti-Marxist and all about the ‘integrity’ of individuals, not Marxist politics.

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  308. “Were the policies pursued and/or defended by Lenin and Trotsky between 1921 and 1924 correct in principle (NEP, Kronstadt, temporary ban on organised factions) and pursued in good faith to defend the revolution against Thermidor and/or counter-revolution or were they responsible for, and did they lead directly to, Stalinism?” David Ellis

    Probably neither of your counter-positions is correct.

    The ban on factions and the closing down of party democracy were actions that did later facilitate the rise of the bureaucracy and Stalinism. They may have been made in ‘good faith’, the idea that what was necessary was to preserve the discipline of the party and the regime at the expense of workers’ democracy and accountability but they were wrong decisions for all that.

    They were not exclusively responsible for Stalinism leading directly to it but factors.

    Ray rising wrote:
    ” Meanwhile today and tomorrow cannot wait for the navel-gazing contemplation of yesterday if it simply results in atrophied monster making – workers are contemptuous of this – meanwhile the Stalinists, Social-Democrats and Trade Union ‘tops’ do their worst work”

    I think this is an important point.

    The motivation for socialist groups to exist is or should be to lever the working class into action, organise alongside militants in the working class, to form organs of struggle, directly elected workplace and community organisations, workers’ councils and defence organisations.

    We should be for the formation of a revolutionary party, completely democratic in its decision making but able and ready to co-ordinate and take centralised action, to use the struggle for workers’ control to show that every partial demand is inexorably linked to the struggle for a society based on direct working class democracy, control and management of society.

    What ray rising might ask has any of this to do with the questions debated on this thread?

    Well, that was the program of the Bolsheviks in 1917, the only mass democratic party that has undertaken a working class revolution, and we think that there are many many positive lessons to be learnt from that time.

    We also, like Trotsky, raise the demands for workers’ councils’ democracy, support for all parties that support the revolution, defence of planned economy but under the control of the workers’ councils. That is why we are in the tradition of Trotsky. It is a tradition that includes the ability to criticise openly anyone, living or dead, because it is based on the principle of workers’ democracy.

    Does that mean that we will inevitably get better results by reclaiming the democratic, mass, from below traditions of the Russian revolution? Not necessarily immediately, no.

    However, I think that forming open discussion forums, organising action in open democratic anti-cuts committees, joining in with resistance wherever it exists will begin to turn the corner for the left. I agree with ID when he writes

    “I’m not in favour of forging unanimity by any means apart from free discussion and persuasion. In fact other methods do not work anyway – they just produce political road-kill — more and more splits and fragmentation. And I’m quite willing to be convinced by people who have something persuasive to say. Nor am I currently a member of any far left group, though I have been in the past. Have also been involved in a number of broad party initiatives – SLP, Socialist Alliance and Respect – in each case these were damaged by various bureaucratic and political weaknesses that exit on the left.

    There are many independents around on the left who don’t fit into any sect. A broad, open, democratic and radical left party could draw in many of them, and probably multiply the number of organised socialists by a factor of at least three or four.”

    At least I think it is a distinct possibility, though probably it wouldn’t cohere immediately but would need to be tested in struggle.

    However, I think that campaigns where the left does not attempt to control them but offers itself as a resource, with our own ideas and program of course (distilled from the lessons of history) but also open discussion and engagement will pay dividends.

    That is why it is important to learn from the past, mistakes as well as successes, so we can have an organisation fit for purpose, that can encourage self-activity and mass direct action by the working class so that the mass democratic organisations of struggle an become in embryo the organisations of rule in a future socialist society based on working class power.

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  309. `The ban on factions and the closing down of party democracy were actions that did later facilitate the rise of the bureaucracy and Stalinism.’

    This is where the difference lies I guess. The temporary emergency ban on organised factions (not party democracy by the way) were not actions that facilitated the rise of the bureaucracy and Stalinism. It was a correct policy taken in defence of the revolution. That it was subsequently used by Stalinism to justify its real crimes is not the fault of either Lenin or Trotsky and let us face it there is no action or thought or belief of Lenin’ s that the bureaucracy didn’t claim as its own even as it revised and mangled his thinking into a conservative counter-revolutionary rationalisation for its rule.

    ID: why do you quote Trotsky’ s autobiographer on Kronstadt when you can go straight to the opinion of Trotsky which is after all what we are discussing and give us your critique of that. What you have said above I could agree with i.e. that there were mistakes around the putting down of the rebellion but I cannot agree that it was in principle wrong, that it was symbolic of the, for Jason, coming Thermidor and for Billj of the already established fact of Thermidor. For me, both these opinions are sectarian and whilst billj might believe he is the cure he is actually the latest symptom of the sectarian degeneration of the revolutionary left and he has is own unique little narrative (1921 to 1924 was Thermidor or capitalist restoration when workers democracy was crushed) which none of the previous degenerate sects and cults have dared to put forward but on which he can no build his own self-serving franchise in his own image. Will it become some anti-marxist ultra left anarchist affair or move rapidlly to the right denouncing more and more of its past and end up joining a Tory coalition? It is too early to say but we know that playing fast and loose with the marxist method and analysis never does end well.

    As for Solidarnosc and the whole collapse of the deformed workers states in Eastern Europe and the collapse of the Soviet Union, that task was always to advance an independent programme for the working class for political revolution. Independent of the Stalinist bureaucracy and the forces of restoration. It was necessary to take advantage of the crisis and the popular movements against stalinism to put forward our programme not adopt somebody else’s. The same is true for China today.

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  310. The two specific points that ID raised here have to be considered and analysed in their living context – meaning that the overall political and economic circumstances are more concrete than the ideological reasoning that underlay their form. The NEP and the state loosening of controls to facilitate the easing of dire want throughout the whole of the socialist republics, was conceived and considered necessary as a temporary economic and sociological measure following the years of civil and interventionist wars and battles by tangible armies with armaments – a physical war to overturn the social revolution – to destroy them. There is meanwhile, another pervasive ongoing war taking place even when those hostilities are subdued and thrown back. This need as grasped by firstly Trotsky and later Lenin, was to get the people (workers and peasants) back on their feet by actually feeding themselves. The preceding War Communism’s necessary functionality had lost its basis in the ‘defencist’ meaning for the people. If the political demands of the ideologues behind the incitement to the Kronstadt forces was as you say, more left-wing than the centre, that in itself doesn’t make their mobilisation and attempt at fracturing the state as a whole correct. The anarchist conceptions of doing away with the ‘state’ as immediately as possible, as an absolute law, lay behind the left-Socialist Revolutionaries agitation complimented by Menshevik reasoning and agitation toward the soldier/worker Kronstadters. Men and women do not live by bread alone but there are times (and those were severe times) when we are ALL drawn from ideological fights to acquire sustenance to continue the fight for life itself. We are here not talking about simply parts of the socialist state but the body of all the lands and all the peoples which the revolution encompassed. During an upward economic curve where a state achieves a certain equilibrium which the people acknowledge as justified there is no revolt there is no break up. 1921 was a year necessitating a new course with a ‘planned’ loosening, that later, when overall conditions were settling would create conditions for another negation of these temporary forms. The external markets and Europe-wide political turmoil were not inseparable but crucial for the soviet peoples trajectory in this period too. This is why it is subterfuge to historically look back and say – they (Kronstadt) were more socialistic than Lenin’s party and thereby make this by association, an extensive raison d’etre to the opening phase of the Thermidor and the institutionalisation of it for the eventuality of Stalinism. Isaac Deuscher also opposed the founding of the 4th International. Deutscher, being a biographer of Trotsky, doesn’t make him the correct in his understanding of the Kronstadt happenings. That so many good men and women were led astray by an ill-conceived revolt also makes me angry. History is full of movements ’out of place’ – the Levellers for a common-wealth, at the start of the bourgeois revolution were heroic, but Cromwellian forms were victorious. The Communards of Paris too were heroic, but their actions and programme were not all-nation encompassing and thought out. History is a cruel disciplinarian when its very progress meets an idealist formation ‘out of time‘. I’ll not here go into the details which showed in Gdansk, Poland 1980, Prague ‘68, Hungary ‘56 or east Berlin ‘53 – for the form Solidarnosc, is but part of the essence of the workers of eastern Europe under Stalinism, seeking to break out in revolt. In reverse, the leadership took the content away from the enemy within, but the class underlying the struggle – is revolutionary through and through.

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  311. Two vital book, one recently published the other recently translated into english are vital in any discussion of this kind:

    http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=11171

    In my view any discussion not informed by the empirical material in these books is redundant.

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  312. redundant seesm a little harsh- are you seriously sayiong no one can say anything of any importance without having read these books?

    Having said that I will seek them out and probably read them.

    In the meanwhile why don’t you give your view having presumable been informed by these books?

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  313. I’m afraid the so-called empirical material ‘grounded’ by the author of ‘Lenin Rediscovered’ is none other than from Lars T Lih. Mr Lih trawled the 2nd International’s archives to reveal – through the pages of the CPGB’s Weekly Worker issue no.800, that Lenin found his inspiration for the April Theses of 1917 in a document/article by Karl Kautsky penned in March 1917. There is nothing empirical in Lih’s false speculative thought there – which leaves the veracity of his other book open to question.

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  314. Anyway I know that people have read those books.
    One point about Lars T Lih’s thesis is that Lenin’s What is to be Done was mistranslated – hence the re-translation – and this explains much about the left today. Except it was written in Russian. I don’t think Stalin read it in the English translation did he!
    The Kronstadters were not anarchists – hence their support for a soviet state.
    The ban on factions increased bureaucraticism. There is simply no question about that, as indeed Trotsky acknowledged later and every other serious account of the revolution too.

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  315. `Except it was written in Russian. I don’t think Stalin read it in the English translation did he!’

    ID: is that or is that not a specific piece of anti-Leninism going way back before his alleged traitorous activities from 1921 onwards backed solely by bald statement posing as fact? I think we can say that at the start of this thread the whole of Trotskyist Marxism was under attack and about three years worth of Lenninist Marxism. Now it appears the treachery began with What is to be Done many years previous. BillJ we await your analysis of Marx’s role in Thermidor and the post-war collapse of the Fourth International into sects, bureaucratic centrism and cults with baited breath.

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  316. The reason I quoted Deutscher against Trotsky is to show that Trotsky’s views on Kronstadt are not taken for granted even among communists, Trotskyists and others politically close to Trotsky. Trotsky’s views on Kronstadt are extremely well known – he was the author of the threatening communication to the sailors that threatened to shoot them down ‘like partridges’ – which to a large extent is what subsequently happened.

    Ray’s contention that subjective political positions do not matter much, that what really matter is the ‘objective’ situation, and therefore despite their best socialistic intentions, the Kronstadt insurgents were counterrevolutionaries anyway, is incredible objectivism.

    Let me quote a couple of choice quotes from the Kronstadt list of demands:

    “1. Immediate new elections to the Soviets. The present Soviets no longer express the wishes of the workers and peasants. The new elections should be by secret ballot, and should be preceded by free electoral propaganda.

    2. Freedom of speech and of the press for workers and peasants, for the Anarchists, and for the Left Socialist parties.”

    […]

    “11. The granting to the peasants of freedom of action on their own soil, and of the right to own cattle, provided they look after them themselves and do not employ hired labour.”

    […]

    “15. We demand that handicraft production be authorised provided it does not utilise wage labour.”

    [the entire document is available here]

    Points 1 and 2, in particular, bear a great deal of resemblance to the following passage:

    “Democratization of the soviets is impossible without legalization of soviet parties. The workers and peasants themselves by their own free vote will indicate what parties they recognize as soviet parties.”

    (which is from Trotsky’s ‘Transitional Programme’ by the way). So far from being for legalisation of the counterrevolutionary parties, the Kronstadt revolt was in favour of drawing a strict class line in which only pro-revolutionary parties would take part in these soviet elections. In other words, they were in favour of restoring to the soviets not only their democratic nature, but also their class content, to paraphrase the Transitional Programme again.

    It is interesting that Ray Rising comes up with this objectivist justification for supporting the Bolshevik suppression of Kronstadt. He also attributes the uprising to the influence of Anarchist, Mensheviks and SR’s. But while all these currents attempt to claim the uprising for their own, there is no real evidence of their actual involvement. There is evidence of the involvement of sailors etc who had been either members or sympathisers of the Bolsheviks, but had become disillusioned, however.

    In any case, the Bolsheviks themselves did not have the kind of subtle reasoning Ray Rising puts forward for this. They were much more crude, simply saying it was a revolt organised by white guards and counter-revolutionary parties. The justification used by Ray Rising is after-the-fact, never used by the people involved, a second-string defence of the indefensible when the original justification has failed. Not very convincing,to be honest.

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  317. I purchased the Lars T book and met him at the CPGB Communist Uvi a few weeks ago. The book is crap and his argumnts ridiculously unconvcincing; Lenin remained Kauskyite all his life and nevwer sorted what went wrong, the Bolsheviks were a reformist-type party like the SPD and What is to be Done means the complkete opposite to what we always houghtr bewcause it was mistranslated. Save thew £44 Jason. But Broue do get because he is a serious. Marxist historian and I will get it too

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  318. Well what language was What is to be Done written in if it wasn’t written in Russian? How outrageous to suggest that Lenin wrote in Russian! Counter Revolutionary! Next thing you know people will be suggesting that Marx was a German! Scandal!

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  319. BTW I agree with you on Kronstadt ID, I’ve written article on it for the next PR.

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  320. David, if you read Bill’s post a little more carefully you’d see that Bill is ridiculing the idea that much of the left’s degeneration today is down to a mistranslation of What Is to Be Done by pointing out that the greatest distortion of Marxism- Stalinism- was carried out largely under the auspices of Stalin- who could read Russian.

    By the way, do you seriously think that the ban on factions didn’t help Stalin isolate Trotsky and the left opposition?

    Gerry thanks for the advice when I saw the price of the book I was going to wait till I could get it from a library or borrow it. I’ll try Broue’s first though even though it is also very expensive.

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  321. I’ll look forward to the next PR, then.

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  322. I’ve got Broue’s Jason if you want to borrow it! Outrageous!!! Counter-revolutionary!!! Sharing – a bourgeois co-operativist deviation!!!

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  323. You’ll be suggesting I start thinking for myself next!

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  324. Now let’s not get carried away now shall we?

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  325. Actually that was a bit harsh. I intended merely to suggest that those two books are of great relevance to this kind of a discussion and would greatly add to them.

    I think Lih’s account is a brilliant demolition of both right and left wing myths about ‘Leninism’ (a term probably not used in any systematic way until after his death). The books argument is that What is To Be Done, which after his death was appropriated both by Stalinists and the right as some kind of canonical account, in reality, read with an attention to context (the book also contains his own Russian translation), reveals Lenin to have been at the time simply an orthodox social democrat, and much of the polemic to have been radically misunderstood by those not familiar with the political context. One of the things I admire about the book is that it is a truly obsessive (every target Lenin mentions in the book is tracked down to particular individuals, tendencies or organisations) and in that sense is a brilliant (I think possibly unanswerable) demolition of the received wisdom on the text.

    On Leninism itself though I’m not so sure. I think that Lenin did gradually come to realise that there was something radically wrong with the second international, beyond simple political disagreement (although its true to say that this came very late: recall his shock at the behaviour of the 2nd international in 1914). However the window for drawing appropriate organisational, philosophical and political conclusions was very narrow. Whilst I think Leh is right to suggest that Lenin regarded himself as an orthodox social democrat until 1914, I think he is wrong to extend this as far as he does. These weaknesses appear to me also to be a strength in the book on What is to be done (which is immensely informative even if you disagree with its perspective) which show an encyclopedic knowledge of the Marxism of the time, as neccessary as the encyclopedic knowledge he shows about the specific Russian left at the time: effectively Lenin’s world when he wrote the pamphlet.

    My own feeling is that “Leninism” as an orthodoxy was probably invented in Germany. I get this from my reading of Brue’s masterful account of the German Revolution recently re-published by Historical Materialism. That too is a massive account. Both books should be read togeather, in my views the errors of both cancelling each other out. Broue is particularly interesting on why Trotsky may have been loath to openly criticise the new doctrine of ‘Leninism’ which in practice was antithetical to Bolshevik organisation (which cannot however be simply equated with Social Democracy: my disagreement with Leh). There is also a wonderful old talk on the comintern by Hallas on audio on the web in which he refers to many of the functionaries who invented the new ‘Leninism’ as a ‘right shower’. After reading both these books its not really possible to disagree.

    I also note that Duncan Hallas book on the comintern is up. Its not a substitute for Broue’s book but its pretty damn fine and if truth be told, conveniantly succint. One difficulty I have with these discussions though, is that they assume that a model of organisation exists which can be applied in all times and all places. I doubt this. Reading Broue in particular one learns the sad truth that often its a bit of catch as catch can business. This does not mean that we don’t know what sort of Party we want: a mass organisation rooted in the class, capable of carrying out its discussions and then acting on them.

    Exactly how we get there? I don’t thinkt there are any blue prints really. We know that Lenin did a good job with the Bolsheviks. We know that after the first couple of years the comintern fucked up royally. I don’t think from this we can conclude, for example, that permenant factions are bad…or that they are good. If we turn to more realistic parrallels, in terms of the post war revolutionary left, sections of the French Trotskyist movement didn’t do too badly with them (although others did disasterously). Sections of the British revolutionary left didn’t do too badly without them (although some organisations without them turned into hidious cults).

    Making comparisons with genuinely mass organisations is a bit of a risky business. Actually reading chapter 5 of Duncan Hallas’s little book on the Comintern, whats disturbing is the ability of even mass organisations to fuck things up. Life ain’t easy.

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  326. Its also worth bearing in mind that the defeat of the Russian revolution meant that aside from the split between reformists and revolutionaries (essentially recognized as inevitable as part of the learning process of the Russian revolution and its aftermath although explanations for the phenomenon really only begin at this time: the great problem with people taking what are the relatively crude formulations of the time as shibboleths of some kind: aristocracy of labour for instance) those who eventually became the anti-Stalinist left began from an extremely artificial and inorganic position: largely isolated not just from the class but also from some of the most talented communists of their generation: who either were murdered, became stalinists or social democrats, or on the other hand went to jail and never got to make their minds up. In reality the lessons of the Russian Revolution ended up neccessarily dogmatic for those of us who remained confined to the fringes for such a long period of time. This is one of the things that Broue argues, I think to great effect. Stalinism meant a set of objective circumstances even for anti-stalinists which blocked off the kind of discussion a class needs to draw the lessons of defeat. And that absence of course had its impact on the quality of discussion amongst revolutionaries.

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  327. Quite a measured response, johng, though I think it is too soft on the idea that many of the British left didn’t do too badly- it’s been really quite a disaster (I include my own tendency in that) and though in recent years it has been very hard for the left to build working class struggle nevertheless much of the left’s obsession with building themselves hasn’t helped and there certainly were opportunities in the 70s and 80s and will be again.

    I think it’s true that Lenin was a creature of the 2nd international in many ways and perhaps some of the habits from the 2nd international were a problem- but I also think it’s true that the Lenin of 1917 and the Bolsheviks were much more democratic than is normally realised and it is partly that tradition we should be trying to reclaim.

    Yes, of course, future opportunities will follow their own logic and we can’t learn everything from the past but there are lessons that if we don’t learn we may well be doomed to repeat

    And yes mass organisations can also make mistakes. That is why tendencies and groupings, even factions, should be allowed so that those mass organisations can openly discuss, debate, learn from their mistakes and yes may be still get it wrong but at least they will be our mistakes to make. Future events will have their own logic but it’s the very complexity of reality that means that no individual or group has a monopoly on the truth which is why workers’ democracy is so essential.

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  328. Actually my last post crossed over with johng’s second.

    “Stalinism meant a set of objective circumstances even for anti-stalinists which blocked off the kind of discussion a class needs to draw the lessons of defeat.”

    Good point.

    I also acknowledge that just because the left has been lamentable in Britain- and pretty much elsewhere as well- doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll get better by organising better- the only test is to try I suppose. But it’s pretty much a given that organisations that impose their own ready made answers, and lambast anyone who disagrres with great vitiol, on working class campaigns won’t succeed.

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  329. johng

    “In reality the lessons of the Russian Revolution ended up neccessarily dogmatic for those of us who remained confined to the fringes for such a long period of time.”

    Interesting point. We are still on the fringes, though, but what keeps us there is more our own subjective weaknesses than any great left-talking political machine sealing us off from an organised working class movement. We don’t have that excuse any more. Which is why this discussion is not ‘navel-gazing’ as someone said earlier.

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  330. I think the memory of Stalinism is still a big block though but yes you’re right we do have a chance to come out from under its shadow…

    This deabte should be about how as socialists we cna help people fight back against the attacks of capitalism. I think if the left or some of us in the left learn to act in a different way, helping workers, not just preahing at them and telling them what to do that can just may be begin to turn the corner…

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  331. Incidentally there is one further point that could be made about Kronstadt. It is this… there is no need to characterise Lenin and Trotsky as akin to Stalinists to understand how they can have been on the wrong side over Kronstadt. The rising happened prematurely – not the first time in history that a spontaneous act happened too soon and was thus doomed to defeat and misunderstanding.

    In particular, it happened before most of the genuinely revolutionary elements in the Bolshevik Party had seriously begun to address the rise of bureaucratism as a social phenomenon. Even the views of the Workers Opposition and DC’s were very early elaborations, and hence appear very unformed and unfocussed – and were very much a minority view.

    Many revolutionary elements, not yet convinced that bureaucracy was such a serious problem, would have seen such criticism as divisive and potentially dangerous.

    Part of the symptoms of the bureaucratisation of the revolution was a separation of many revolutionaries from the masses. In such conditions ferment among the masses could not be properly sensed (though the ‘roots’ as it were) and properly analysed.

    Kronstadt was above all a symptom of that separation. Honest revolutionary elements, in the absence of those connections, could quite conceivably be taken by surprise by such an event and spontaneously regard it as a hostile act. Yet it was an early, spontaneous response to problems that the Left Opposition was later forced to address as these problems developed much further.

    Its unfortunate that the Left Opposition of 1923 and later never went back and re-analysed Kronstadt, the ban on factions, and the whole legacy of 1921. Not that surprising though, they had rather a lot on their plate by that time. And it is quite common that different layers that embrace similar causes at different times; if a later grouping has been complicit in condemning and suppressing an earlier movement, it is by no means automatic that the common cause between the two will be recognised. History does not always work out so neatly.

    This is partly because of the ability of the victors to write the history, which is noted rather often in more classic cases involving imperialism and oppressed peoples, but can also be the case with events like Kronstadt.

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  332. Siven that Bill defends the revolution up to 1921 (as far as that?) then what does he have to say on Robert Service biograhy? I do not recall a review in PR but I may be wrong. I hace located Bill’s politics now somewhere in line with the International Communist Current, but with many post-1921 contradictions which he will have to irn out of he is to have a consistant world outlook, an impossible task I would have said.

    Socialist Standard have written a reactionary review in line with the ridiculous anti-Russian Revolution stance of the Socialist Party of Great Britain. However they do have a point in that the majority of reviewers of Services’s book avoid the main political thrust of the attack on Trotsky’s defence of therevolution and concentrate on the appalling acdemic standard of the work, a point well acceptable to the SPGB. Here is the link to the Socialist Fight Review which takes Servise’s reactionary attack head on and does deal with the failure of other reviewers to do so.

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  333. I still think Harman’s piece on kronstadt published in the autumn of 1971 provides the correct parameters for looking at this question. There can be no doubt that the suppression and the methods used were symptoms of bureacratic degeneration. At the same time there can be no doubt that the uprising was not simply ‘premature’ but a real threat to the soviet republic: soviets without communists was a stalking horse for counter-revolution. hackneyed as these phrases sound they were true:
    http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/harman/1971/xx/kronstadt.htm

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  334. In response to Gerry:

    Robert Service is a historian unashamedly writing against the revolution, deliberately biased and with very poor standards of evidence and reliability.

    Bill and Permanent Revolution support the Russian revolution and moreover support revolution today (funnily enough: the clue is in the name).

    Some of us in PR are arguing that issues about Stalinism and the discussion about whether or not some of the policies and actions of the Bolsheviks contributed to or helped pave the way for it are important today for two reasons:
    1) we can change the way socialist groups operate both internally and externally
    2) it shows that socialists are able to have sensible debates and discussions to learn the lessons of history- something that is completely anathema to the sort of stale dogmatic orthodoxy of Stalinists who no doubt would denounce as ‘revisionist’, ‘counter-revolutionary’, ‘reactionary’

    The point of discussion for socialists is to understand the world in order to change it. Discussion is part of a wider picture of mobilising working class people in their fightback against the attacks and cuts of capitalism so that working class people discover their own power to change the world and create a new society.

    johng: the assertions of Harman about Kronstadt have been much repeated but that does not contribute proof. There is more to be said on this- it’s the sort of issue that does require detailed historical debate. It does not change the main thrust of Mark’s article that the faction ban in 1921 helped Stalin isolate Trotsky:

    “Lenin’s ban on factions and demand for unity of the party at the expense of any meaningful internal political struggles was Stalin’s most powerful weapon in the following decade. In the name of party unity he completed the destruction of the party as a revolutionary instrument. As Trotsky put it:
    “However, what was in its original design merely a necessary concession to a difficult situation, proved perfectly suited to the taste of the bureaucracy, which had then begun to approach the inner life of the party exclusively from the viewpoint of convenience in administration.” http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch05.htm#ch05-1

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  335. Trotsky’s next paragraph is also interesting:

    “The entire effort of Stalin, with whom at that time Zinoviev and Kamenev were working hand in hand, was thenceforth directed to freeing the party machine from the control of the rank-and-file members of the party. In this struggle for “stability” of the Central Committee, Stalin proved the most consistent and reliable among his colleagues. He had no need to tear himself away from international problems; he had never been concerned with them. The petty bourgeois outlook of the new ruling stratum was his own outlook. He profoundly believed that the task of creating socialism was national and administrative in its nature. He looked upon the Communist International as a necessary evil would should be used so far as possible for the purposes of foreign policy. His own party kept a value in his eyes merely as a submissive support for the machine.”

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  336. Apparently, though, the demand for ‘Soviets without Communists’ was never used by the Kronstadt insurgents. It was falsely attributed to them by the Kadet leader Miliukov after the uprising had been crushed as a means to try to appropriate its prestige for his own (bourgeois) party. See Brian Pearce’s essay ‘1921 and all that’ from the Healyite ‘Labour Review’ (1960) – in an essay that defends the suppresson of Kronstadt and indeed is completely ‘orthodox’ on 1921, if you see what I mean. But Pearce nevertheless is compelled to admit this salient fact.

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/pearce/1960/10/1921.htm

    The actual demands that the insurgents made were for new soviet elections together with freedom of speech for the anarchists and left socialist parties. See document cited earlier.

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  337. To fully grasp the significance of the analysis made by Trotsky in the above – and from its citation by Jason, both historically and sociologically, it ‘explains’ the source and correctly addresses the argument. The Marxist Internet Archive is a most important resource for socialists/communists when it enables us to go to the heart of the dispute simultaneously. Well done Jason.

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  338. That’s right ID the slogan soviets without communists did not arise within Kronstadt but was attributed to it from the outside by Milukov and Lenin.
    The Bolsheviks by 1921 were already very bureaucratised and their response to the inquiry and then resolution of the Kronstadt soviet in support of the strikers in Petrograd was to isolate base and then to construct an amalgam stretching from the white guards to Kronstadt but including the workers opposition. This was frankly all lies.
    The Bolsheviks never did produce any proof whatsoever of the alleged relations between Kronstadt and the white guards, indeed a GPU agent was among the leaders of the uprising and escaped to Finland after it.
    And as you say the capitalist restoration introduced under NEP was far less unconditional than that proposed by the Kronstadters.

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  339. I wouldn’t call NEP capitalist restoration. The state permitted controlled capitalism latitude to revive the economy, but the same state was quite capable of reversing that as subsequent history showed. For outright capitalist restoration to take place, the NEPmen would have had to take state power, which never happened. The state was still capable of breaking with the NEPmen and expropriating them, though it did not so so until around 1928.

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  340. The excellent article by Brian Pearce provides more than salient ‘facts’ about an often referred-to ‘orthodoxy’. There is not there some universally accepted median that is understood by many ‘Trotskyists’. The whole article needs to be read – it is a wrong method to subjectively ‘cherry pick’ salient facts to construct an edifice of defence. On that thread link I thank ID for bringing it in.

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  341. But what about Harman’s central point that if by the late 1920s scarcity where a function of a new regime of accumulation in the early 1920s they were the product of war and famine, neither of which were in the gift of the bolsheviks? Non-believers and heretics who do not fully accept Cliff’s theory of state capitalism and the more specific theory of bureacratic state capitalism could alter the wording of this argument and simply discuss the stalinist pattern of economic development. Joking aside I fully accept that more empirical detail is useful (as with discussions of ‘Leninism’) but general orientation also matters. I also think it may well be true that the banning of factions helped in the isolation of Trotsky. But this, in itself, is not an indication a) that Trotsky was isolated BECAUSE of the banning of factions or b) that the banning of factions was not a correct decision. This is not a defence of the banning of factions but merely a warning about what would be an inadequate basis for argument. Given the isolation of the revolution I think Trotsky’s fall inevitable.

    More seriously the question of whether or not NEP implied the ‘restoration of capitalism’: the whole debate seems to rest on a misunderstanding. It was no-one’s claim (well aside from a few proletcult impossibilists) that capitalism itself had been abolished by the october revolution. the socialist charecter of the state was understood entirely in terms of political control, debates focusing on how much it could be said that a neccessarily substitutionist Bolshevik organisation represented the ‘will’ or ‘interests’ of the working class. Its one reason why I think by the late 1920s descriptions of the Soviet Union as a workers state of any kind are either farcical or rest on an unacknowledged shift in the definitions, partly themselves the product of the very substitutionalism being critiqued here: ie in terms of ‘planning’ etc.

    It was not believed at that stage that you could build socialism in one country. It was believed that the working class even of quite a backward country could smash the old state and direct the economy in order to preserve its power until relief came in the shape of successful uprisings by the proletariat in the heartlands of the global capitalist system.

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  342. Excellent Hallas link I have no hesitation blocking with him/SWP in defence of the RR against the grosser revisionism of PR. Does not make SWP orthodox Trots though. And I will answer thwe false allegation that I support Solidarnosc later

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  343. I don’t think the SWP makes any claim to being ‘orthodox trots’ gerry. As things go I think we were rather proud not to be.

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  344. My main objection to Bill J’s line on this thread is not so much opening up a discussion about the extent of bureaucratic deformations in the USSR in the immediate years following the revolution. I’ll always remember listening to Duncan Hallas rather bluntly outlining this back in 1984 (the meeting was ‘decline of the comintern’ and is available on-line in the Duncan Hallas Audio archive). Its that he see’s the degeneration entirely in terms of those bureaucratic deformations. This I think he still shares with the ‘orthodox’ trotskyist tradition both he and his opponents come from. I think Trotsky’s increasingly implausible balancing act between the economic and the political (ie socialist base degenerate superstructure, leading in the end to his talking about the possibility of a ‘fascist workers state’) were the product a) of the specific circumstances of his fight with the stalinists, which necessarily incorporated a defense of the substitutionalism of the early 1920s b) understandable theoretical confusion (after all nothing like this had ever happened before). But all in all if one legacy is a workable anti-stalinist tradition (although one which in my view is flawed, the other is an inability to draw sharp distinctions between ‘bureaucratic distortions’ and on the other hand the Stalinist system (however defined) at the level of theory rather then polemic. Thats why I think something like Bill J’s position is inevitable if you stick to the paradigms laid down by ‘orthodox’ Trotskyism (its always been my view that had Trotsky survived its rather unlikely that he would have done so himself). I’m with the orthodox trots in defending some conception of Leninism (however defined) nevertheless.

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  345. The obstinate ‘state cap’ methodology won’t go away will it! For want of a definition of what a ‘state actually’ is we are given a complete definition by simple characteristics that substitute for class basis essentials (ownership of the means of production – private property or social property). So the NHS being socialistic, means that Britain under New Lab or Coalition is a socialist state! So political concessions as to the temporary basis of the economic basis of the NEP affirms that either ALL economic social relations are established on either capitalist or socialist basis thereby defining the state. The SWP/IS rationale can now enter the fray and tell us all – we told you so. The property laws, the organs functioning in defence of any said state have to have a basis in society in constitution of class law. Who wielded power over property after October 1917 – and is this not the foundation of a state? johnnyg you believe Trotskyism is fundamentally wrong therefore you are not a Trotskyist full stop

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  346. I’m sorry Ray but these dogmatic assertions simply don’t substitute for proper discussion. The kind of argument you outline here would not be found in the early 1920s. Its an argument which came to be developed in the late 1920s. You seem to be implying that social relations automatically change their character depending on juridicial relations and who happens to be in power. This may or may not be trotskyism but its a lot closer to high stalinism and indeed maoism then it is to trotskyism.

    In a different and non-sectarian spirit I’d offer another article by Hallas ‘the decline of the fourth international’ which looks in detail at the consequences of the theoretical pickle outlined above. Funnily enough I’ve always wanted Louis Proyect to have a read of this for unrelated reasons. He is understandably furious about the record of the US SWP. The article suggests that those of us from the European Trotskyist tradition have reason to share that fury.

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/works/1973/xx/fidecline.htm

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  347. …then it is to marxism…sorry.

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  348. Ray: it is all about a marxist analysis and the SWP say they believe Trotsky could provide one on Mondays only. For the rest of the week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, are Gramsci days and the weekend is reserved or their very own epigones. They never actually specify where trotsky was wrong, is there an example anywhere of them contradicting anything secific written by Trotsky, but they have managed somehow all the same to ditch his analysis of the deformed workers’ state. Johng simply says above that Trotsky couldn’t have properly analysed the events up to the Thermidor or for the SWP capitalist restoration because he was complicit in it. Such Trotskyists!! They are at best eclectics and increasingly Gramscian Stalinists revisionists with a left reformist programme. They are a product of the post-war degeneration of the Fourth and its capture by the shysters.

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  349. johng: …”More seriously the question of whether or not NEP implied the ‘restoration of capitalism’: the whole debate seems to rest on a misunderstanding. It was no-one’s claim (well aside from a few proletcult impossibilists) that capitalism itself had been abolished by the october revolution. the socialist charecter of the state was understood entirely in terms of political control, …” There is socialist and socialised – you obviously fail to distinguish the the head from the body. If in December 1917, a factory owner were to suddenly appear at his former factory and tell the workers that they were in the wrong – the said workers and their soviet, would call the Bolsheviks to declare politically ‘who was in the right’. That’s not a late 1920’s scenario – and the answer the real workers gave then was almost certainly ‘dogmatic’.

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  350. As you are no doubt aware the Soviet Economy was a mixed economy until the dawn of the five year plans (this was even true under war communism, a misnamed confusion of requisitions and barter and communism, hallas says he saw something like it in post-war Germany). So your statements do not appear to fit with any reality your idealised workers would have recognised. You also seem to misunderstand me. I think the Soviet Union was indeed a workers state after 1917, albeit, as Lenin noted, one with bureaucratic deformations (essentially a code for the very minimal role any actual working class played in it) . I think though the experiance of real workers power was a very limited one in time frame. Probably not beyond the first few months of 1918 (this is essentially the position Hallas outlines in his speech). I still think Lenin’s formulation made sense though. I think it makes no sense at all during the Stalin period unless you want to suggest that Stalinism was more socialist (because socialising) then Bolshevism. A viewpoint which, whatever orthodoxies we’re supposed to bow our heads to, I just find unacceptable. David Ellis belongs in a seminary rather then a political blog, and out of respect for Trotsky I can’t bring myself to debate with him.

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  351. In other words I fully accept the equation workers state=workers power. The early 1920s are a period when speaking of bureacratic degeneration etc makes sense. After 1928 its grotesque.

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  352. Thanks for that essential link Dave E. Through Trotsky we learn both of the social physiology of it’s participants and of pertinent conditions. How rural and pedantic are the various screamers about ‘terrible retribution’.

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  353. Johng: Nobody is asking you to bow your head to any orhodoxy but presumably we all claim to be marxists so please let us have specific examples of where you disagree with any of Trotsky’s writings and how they defer from the Marxist method otherwise we must conclude that being `anti-orthodox’ is no more than being anti-marxist or at best revisionist on the questions where its suits your opportunist practices to be so.

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  354. “Probably not beyond the first few months of 1918”

    This is one reason why I think the discussion of factions is a very abstract one. Its certainly true that in this situation it was vital that different currents could express themselves. But we should not forget that we are here having a discussion of the ONLY place where discussion and power came togeather. In other words such things no longer existed in the Soviets and the reason for that was that outside the constitution Soviets hardly existed as functioning institutions (as was the case in the immediate post-revolutionary years factories themselves). The revival after the civil war raised these questions again, but paradoxically in being so firm about internal party relations Bill J is missing the extent of the atrophy of wider institutions and indeed the working class which provided the backdrop of the atrophy inside the party. Without some kind of understanding of this the rise of Stalinism becomes largely incomprehensible. Stalinism like any counter-revolutionary movement represented itself as a return to normality. But unlike other counter-revolutionary movements there was not a a ruling class left to restore. So they restored themselves.

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  355. David I just did in my criticism of way Trotsky configured the base and superstructure model in his analyses of a degenerated workers state. I also posted a long article by Hallas on the consequences of this. In all the years I’ve watched you posting there has never yet been any indication that you read anything anyone else said so my arguments are not addressed to you. You seem to be under the misapprehension that if you think someone got something wrong this must involve a repudiation (and probably a violent repudiation) of the entirety of their thought. This is a Stalinist and not a Marxist notion. Duncan Hallas explains very well how this was, grotesquely, reproduced in the American Trotskyist movement, and I think you are a perfect exemplification of what he was talking about.

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  356. Johng: Can you please provide the specific passage or sample of passages if there are to many from Trotsky in which he incorrectly configured the base and superstructure model in his analysis of a degenerated workers state so that we can all see where he went wrong.

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  357. johng, please explain this because I can’t make head nor tail of it. …” You seem to be under the misapprehension that if you think someone got something wrong this must involve a repudiation (and probably a violent repudiation) of the entirety of their thought. This is a Stalinist and not a Marxist notion. …”

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  358. Johng: Can you please provide the specific passage or sample of passages if there are to many from Trotsky in which he incorrectly configured the base and superstructure model in his analysis of a degenerated workers state so that we can all see where he went wrong.

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  359. Sorry folks, I could not let the slander on Solidarnosc stand:
    Stalinism and Soviet defencism in Poland

    The position of the three “Family” groups on Stalinism is wrong, has been wrong from the beginning and is getting worse; the asses ears of Pabloism and Shachtmanism poke through their “Trotskyism”. The failure to comprehend the Proletarian Military Policy was the measure of their Shachtmanite inability to relate to the working class in struggle. The question revolves around the nature of the former deformed and degenerated workers’ states and of the bureaucracy that staffed them and who were the leadership of those states whilst they commanded the instruments of coercion, the police, army, judiciary, etc. Did these states and bureaucracies have a dual nature? All three groups say yes and they agree with the manner in which Robertson repudiated Joe Hansen’s characterisation of the bureaucracy as “counterrevolutionary true-and-true and to the core”. You will not find in the works of Trotsky a quote where he says either that the workers’ states or their bureaucratic state apparatuses have a “dual nature”.
    The relevant chapter in The Revolution Betrayed speaks of, “The Dual Character of the Workers’ State” and speaks of its dual role and dual function. Yet you use the terms interchangeably. It is significant that the IBT largely avoids the term, the ICL use it freely and the LFI are now absolutely reliant on it. Remember that the question raised by Michel Pablo in 1951 was on the nature of Stalinism; Trotsky said that after 1933 it had become counterrevolutionary, Pablo said, in relation to Yugoslavia initially, that is it had a “dual nature”, whilst sometimes counterrevolutionary, it could “project a revolutionary orientation”, and accused his orthodox opponents of “Shachtmanism”. Here is the IBT in a letter to Robertson of October 28, 1983;
    “Dear Comrade Robertson: We reject the erroneous position of the Dobbs-Cannon SWP majority in 1952-53 with which you attempt to saddle us (“Stalinism is counterrevolutionary through and through and to the core”)…Of course the Soviet bureaucracy has a dual nature.” And the ICL;
    Workers Vanguard No. 456 (1 July 1988);
    “Far from characterizing the bureaucracy as “counter-revolutionary through and through,” in the Transitional Programme, the founding document of the Fourth International, Trotsky wrote that “all shades of political thought are to be found among the bureaucracy: from genuine Bolshevism (Ignace Reiss) to complete fascism (F. Butenko)” The dual nature of the Kremlin oligarchy is fundamental to the Trotskyist position of unconditional military defence of the Soviet Union combined with the call for political revolution to oust the bureaucracy.” And the IG;
    Stalinists Led the Counterrevolution? ICL, Between Shachtman and Trotsky in The Internationalist AUG 2000: In claiming that the Stalinists led the counterrevolution, the ICL in effect declared that the bureaucracy had lost its dual nature, that it ceased to be a contradictory layer. If today the SL/ICL leadership takes a quarter-step backwards when their revision becomes too blatant, opining that some bureaucratic sectors may “balk at the consequences” of counterrevolution (in China but not in the GDR or USSR?!), they nonetheless oppose seeking to split the bureaucracy in the course of a workers’ political revolution… This revision of Trotsky’s analysis of the dual nature of the Stalinist bureaucracy negated what the SL/ICL had written on the “Russian question” for three decades, and was sharply counterposed to its own intervention fighting counterrevolution in the GDR and the USSR during 1989-92.”
    A “dual nature” of any phenomenon is impossible. We have dual tendencies in dynamic internal conflict within a single phenomenon. It is important to note that when Trotsky did battle with Shachtman and his tendency he laid great emphasis on the central need to study the Marxist dialectic to understand Stalinism; the extract below (and the full document) does this. Robertson has never portrayed Stalinism in motion and change, as a single phenomenon in internal contradiction in which the bourgeois side was constantly strengthening; for him it is a dead, fixed category in its relationship with imperialism and the world proletariat. Hence its “dual nature”. In 1987 a huge conflict had arisen in the WRP over Gerry Downing’s rejection of the Stalinophobic assertion, that Stalinism was “the most counter-revolutionary force on the planet”. It is available on Gerry Downing’s Documents on Scribd WRP Explosion. This is an extract from Gérard Laffont’s reply to Cliff Slaughter in in 1987 on Stalinism:
    “Trotsky, in fact, never did talk about a ‘dual nature’ of the bureaucracy. The expression is Pabloite. And it corresponds completely to the ‘theory’ in question, especially developed by Mandel…The formulation ‘dual nature’ constitutes a real monstrosity from the point of view of the dialectic. That is why Trotsky never employed it in regard to the bureaucracy, no more than he used it,… in regard to the Soviet state…Trotsky speaks of a dual character of the state, of a duality of its functions, but in no way of a ‘dual nature’ of this state. The duality of the character of the Soviet state is effectively determined by the existence of contradictory, counterposed tendencies – bourgeois and socialist – within this state. And it is the struggle between these ‘mutually exclusive’ tendencies (and not between two ‘natures’) that determines the physiognomy and the future of the workers’ state…Thus the dual nature of the workers’ state’ – writes Slaughter — ‘is dual precisely in that the working class and the bureaucracy are the proletarian (socialist) and the bourgeois sides of this duality!“ Well, no. That is not at all the case. The proletariat constitutes itself as the ruling class through the installation of its dictatorship, which it exercises through a state. The necessity of this state flows from the very necessity for ‘hastening the growth of material power’ (The Revolution Betrayed, 1970 Pathfinder edition, page 54), indispensable for the coming of the socialist society.
    “But as Marx said, ‘ law can never be higher than the economic structure and the cultural development of society conditioned by that structure” (ibid p. 53), the workers’ state undertakes socialist construction while utilizing bourgeois forms of distribution. Thus, as Trotsky said, the state assumes directly and from the very beginning a dual character; socialistic, insofar as it defends social property in the means of production, bourgeois insofar as the distribution of life’s goods is carried out with a capitalistic measure of value and all the consequences ensuing therefrom‘ (p. 54)…’The dual function of the state,’ adds Trotsky, could not but affect its structure…For the defence of bourgeois law’ the workers’ state was compelled to create a bourgeois type of instrument – that is, the same old gendarme although in a new uniform” (pp. 54-55) that is; there is no workers’ state without a bureaucracy
    “… In given historic conditions, the bureaucracy of the first proletarian state reached such a degree of development, has so strengthened the bourgeois tendencies inherent in this state that, without a new revolutionary leap by the proletariat, this bureaucracy, ‘becoming ever more the organ of the world bourgeoisie’ will conclude by overthrowing the new property relations and plunging the country back into capitalism, ‘with a catastrophic decline in production and culture.’ That is the historic justification of the political revolution. But the task of this revolution – the only one possible and conceivable at this stage of historical development is the regeneration of the workers’ state and in no way its abolition. The working class has to ‘crush the bureaucracy to put it ‘out of condition to do harm’; such are the expressions used by Trotsky.”[11]
    The Bureaucracy would become restorationist
    Trotsky was here predicting that the bureaucracy would become restorationist and quite obviously by 1989-91 the quantitative development of the restorationist wing of the bureaucracy, immensely assisted by the 1981 events in Poland, had become restorationist; they had decided to base themselves on capitalist property relations. The contradictions had become resolved in their minds because of the economic collapse; its privileges had been based on nationalised property relationships up to then, these relationships could no longer guarantee their privileges so they abandoned them. In the IBT’s 1917 No. 8 – Summer 1990 we get “The attitude of revolutionaries toward the Soviet military in the deformed workers’ states depends on the concrete circumstances. Insofar as it represents a bulwark against imperialist military pressure, or domestic counterrevolution, we defend it.” But by then it was not a bulwark against imperialist intervention or internal counter-revolution, it was itself an active part of the counter-revolution.
    So now the brutal reality faced by the ICL after Treptow Park was as Trotsky predicted. The truth, that there was not even a hint of a “faction of Reiss”, the Stalinist abandoned the workers’ state in a mad grab for a new social basis for their privileges. This obvious reality was too must to swallow for the LFI’s Jan Norden, who took off complaining about ICL realism and blaming the working class by writing that incredible stupid document, Stalinists Led the Counterrevolution? ICL, Between Shachtman and Trotsky; the counterrevolution was led by “DDR (Kohl’s Christian Democrats and Brandt’s Social Democrats), the Soviet Union (Bush’s man Yeltsin) and East Europe (such as Solidarnosc, the Polish company union for the Vatican and CIA)” they say, ignoring the facts like Yeltsin was a Stalinist bureaucrat and Jaruzelski actively participated in the Polish restoration.
    Since there was no imperialist invasion, not only no resistance of note from the Stalinists but active collaboration and leadership from them and the easiest of tasks for restorationists to overturn the rotten structures it must follow that the bourgeois character of the bureaucracy had at last triumphed over defence of the nationalised property relations. Capitalism now promised better things for them. All the “Family” looked to the wrong “class”, which had been a bureaucratic caste and was now transforming itself into the defenders of capitalism, to defend the nationalised property relations even if only “in the final analysis”. Against the LFI positions the ICL and the IBT to a lesser extent, made a pragmatic adaption to reality.
    Even if this means to confront the majority of a proletariat misled in a nationalistic manner
    Note how the LFI must insist on the dual nature of the bureaucracy above in order to abandon the working class and orientate to the bureaucracy, just as the ICL and IBT abandoned the whole Polish working class. The Gruppe IV. International advocated leaving Solidarnosc and calling the workers to follow them after the leadership had adopted the openly restorationist programme in August 1981; “Under these circumstances it was impossible for communists to stay in Solidarnosc”.
    If Trotsky could advocate that the German Trotskyists enter the fascist front unions under Hitler why could Trotskyists not continue to fight to forge a revolutionary opposition in Solidarnosc? Because the “Family” knew about the “dual nature of the bureaucracy which would save the deformed workers’ state. So they were for “the unconditional military defence of proletarian property forms even if this means to confront the majority of a proletariat misled in a nationalistic manner”. [12] The IBT’s Acid Test has the following incredible passage,
    “Many of the demands raised in the Solidarnosc program… deal with questions of marginal importance; the call for adequate heating and food for the elderly or for the protection of the environment are, in themselves, unobjectionable. But they are also politically insignificant.”
    So the counterrevolutionaries in Solidarnosc were concerned about “adequate heating and food for the elderly or for the protection of the environment”, the Stalinists launched their repression promising these things immediately but we simon-pure revolutionaries knew that these necessities of life, the very stuff of political activity for all those orientated to the masses, were politically insignificant. If you were aspiring to lead a political revolution against both the Stalinist bureaucracy and Solidarnosc counterrevolutionary restorationists leadership you would have been formulating some democratic transitional demands. Something similar to “Land, Bread and Peace” which had some “political significance”, historically. The above quoted extract proves beyond doubt that you had no such aspirations or orientation; your advice to the masses, because you are almost a pure propaganda group was to meekly bare their breasts to the bullets of Jaruzelski’s repression and don’t mind if the elderly or anyone else freezes or starves to death or chokes on industrial pollution, the thing now is to defend Stalinism!
    When Trotsky said, “On the other hand, if the dictatorship of the proletariat means anything at all, then it means that the vanguard of the class is armed with the resources of the state in order to repel dangers, including those emanating from the backward layers of the proletariat itself,” he was not proposing that the bureaucracy crush the entire working class, as they did with ICL/IBT support. Walesa opposed the “radicals” in December 1981 because he feared his alliance with the bureaucracy would fail in an uprising. Jaruzelski crushed the workers so that Solidarnosc emerge without a radical base which made restoration almost inevitable in 1989. Their reaction in 1989 was determined by Walesa and Jaruzelski.
    This is exactly what they did just eight years later and now there was no hope than anyone would listen to the “revolutionaries” that supported their crushing in 1981 – although the IBT were not for excusing all the excess of the Stalinists and the ICL were. Is not curious that the IBT pamphlet – written in 1988 – stops in 1981? So, there is nothing about the repression, nor the discussions – organised by the Catholic Church and the USSR bureaucracy led the by Gorbachev- between Solidarnosc leadership and the Polish government which began officially… in 1988. Let us see how they fared on Russia and China.

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  360. when he argues that there it was theoretically feasible for there to be a ‘fascist workers state’. Just one example. Ray I was referring to David’s wholly Stalinist method of debate.

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  361. I have no brief from or for David E in an abstract sense but his critique of others has raised fundamental questions of principal. From Marx through Engels, Lenin and Trotsky they have been labelled ‘dogmatic sectarians’ at various times. I for one am unashamed of that epithet if it distinguishes me from an unprincipled swamp of confusion that falsely identifies and categorises Marxist (Leninist/Trotskyist) history. For why did you throw into the pot the theorectically feasible ‘fascist workers state’ without reference to any question on formulation on specific issues?

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  362. Sorry it is a specific issue. Please tell me whether you believe a fascist workers state is a feasible theoretical formulation. And explain to me how, given that Trotsky always chose his words with care, such a phrase, issued in the midst of a very interesting discussion of the provisional nature of his hypothesis on the nature of the soviet union, can be disassociated from his general framework. As opposed to just avoiding the question.

    It is pretty central in a discussion like this and raises fundamental issues. If you think Trotsky was right then tell me how its theoretically feasible for there to be a ‘fascist workers state’. If you think he was wrong explain what might have led him to be wrong. Trotsky’s legacy is too valuable to be canonised.

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  363. And incidentally please explain to me what fundamental issues of principle David Ellis has raised. If you seriously believe that its unprincipled to call his arguments ‘sectarian’ (although I didn’,t I used the term ‘dogmatic’ on the one hand, and on the other hand pointed to the similarities with Stalinist modes of argument which involve simply hurling ludicrous allegations at people and hoping they’ll stick.

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  364. johng, it was you who firstly raised the point at 10.47am today: … “I think Trotsky’s increasingly implausible balancing act between the economic and the political (ie socialist base degenerate superstructure, leading in the end to his talking about the possibility of a ‘fascist workers state’) were the product a) of the specific circumstances of his fight with the stalinists, which necessarily incorporated a defense of the substitutionalism of the early 1920s b) understandable theoretical confusion (after all nothing like this had ever happened before). …” zzz Where did Trotsky say this please give us a context?

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  365. The discussions of factions is not abstract at all, once its place in the wider atrophy of democratic working class organisations within society is recognised. Mark’s article makes exactly this point. By 1921 the party was the only organisation within which any semblance of democracy existed. By abolishing factions that last point was snuffed out. That is its significance.
    And I’d tread carefully John when Gerry and David say they’ll make a bloc with you its time to rush out the living room and stuff your head down the toilet!

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  366. The point being of course that after you’ve flushed a few times you can reassure yourself that you were indeed totally wrecked and beyond sensible action.

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  367. Actually i’m more optimistic about the Gerrys and Davids of this world but we won’t them on the bligs however enlightening this conversation is.

    The discussion about factions/tendencies is far from abstract. It is essential. Here’s why.

    In the class struggle things are rarely simple. There’s the prospect of huge cuts around the corner, massive job losses for public sector workers, schools, children’s centres, hospitals being closed down or at least places slashed. Now as socialists and activists we would day some things are simple- no cuts! No job losses! Support for strike action etc.

    But how can we build this? Parents might suggest various tactics from a petition, to an occupation, to a big demo with blocking the traffic and all sorts of other things. How will we mobilise the community? Socialists may have useful things to say by giving examples of campaigns that have won but without listening to the key people involved and actually getting them to organise the action we are unlikely to get it off the ground. By allowing all sorts of different opinions to be aired and discussing alternatives even in the context of just one campaign we can begin to get somewhere.

    What sort of society do we want? Do we want one where a small group of people make decisions on behalf of everyone else? We’ve already got one like that so we don’t need to replicate that in our politics. We want one where people become their own masters, become confident of their own ability to run things.

    So if we need all sorts of different opinions in just one campaign across a class wide struggle against the attacks of the bourgeois on the welfare state, on working class living conditions, racist and disablist attacks to divide workers we need to have a vibrant workers’ democracy, the vibrant and joyous chaos of mass meetings to thrash out and decide policy not meetings staffed with party faithfuls who the chair will select to parrot the latest good thing to say.

    Of course when decisions are made we need to act together, one for all, all together, in one mighty blow. That kind of centralism of a strike, of a mass occupation or mass demonstration is part of the organised power of the working class. When ten thousand people sit down and refuse to move that is a force to be reckoned with… if a million or more organise that is the beginning of a revoltuion and properly organised we hgave the pwoer to change the world.

    But to get there, to get the ear and the voice of the working class in their thousands and tens of thousands we need a very different left.

    As Trotsky wrote:
    “The inner regime of the Bolshevik party was characterized by the method of democratic centralism. The combination of these two concepts, democracy and centralism, is not in the least contradictory. The party took watchful care not only that its boundaries should always be strictly defined, but also that all those who entered these boundaries should enjoy the actual right to define the direction of the party policy. Freedom of criticism and intellectual struggle was an irrevocable content of the party democracy. The present doctrine that Bolshevism does not tolerate factions is a myth of epoch decline. In reality the history of Bolshevism is a history of the struggle of factions. And, indeed, how could a genuinely revolutionary organization, setting itself the task of overthrowing the world and uniting under its banner the most audacious iconoclasts, fighters and insurgents, live and develop without intellectual conflicts, without groupings and temporary factional formations? The farsightedness of the Bolshevik leadership often made it possible to soften conflicts and shorten the duration of factional struggle, but no more than that. The Central Committee relied upon this seething democratic support. From this it derived the audacity to make decisions and give orders. ”
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch05.htm#ch05-1
    Now Trotsky writing something doesn’t make it true (except to some people I guess!) but it is an interesting point from one of the participants in a mass revolution and it’s easy to see why.

    It’s why we’re socialists because we believe that working class people have collectively the intelligence, the creativity, the imagination and the ability to turn things around. A world where the top 1% own 40% of everything and the bottom half (50%) own only 1% (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews)
    is not only obscene because so many die in poverty it is obscenely wasteful because each one of those 30 000 children who die needlessly every day could be the next Einstein, Darwin, Curie, Kahlo or Michelangelo
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/dec/06/business.internationalnews

    Capitalist society is a waste of our collective talents- it is brutal and cruel and we can create a better society and a better world. But to do it we have to learn from what has gone before and do it better.

    That’s why what happened nearly a century ago half a continent away is still of some relevance- it was the first time workers had collectively rebelled, it was crushed but we can learn from that expereince and make it better next time around.

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  368. should have written in last paragraph

    ‘collectively rebelled and achieved state power even if workers’ power prevailed only for a few short years, it was crushed by bureacratic counter-revolution (led by Stalin but capitalising ably on some of the shortcomings of the workers’ revolution). We can learn from that expereince and make it better next time around. ‘

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  369. Ray are you a trotskyist or just someone who does incantations? If you don’t know what I mean by the idea that you can have a socialist base and a degenerated superstructure its really not for me to tell you. A word of advice. Read other Trotskyists. I do (although it is of course a terrifying experiance). I have very much enjoyed both Broue and Ben Said despite real, what I think are called, ‘programatic differences’. The anti-Stalinist tradition is not so huge that you can afford not to learn even from those you disagree with. As well as healthy bouts of self doubt you can sometimes even make your own account better (and more solid). In terms of the IS I’d suggest that Chris Harman and Duncan Hallas are always worth a read. Start with Hallas ‘Trotsky’s Marxism’ (its on line). It’ll be a terrifying experiance but who knows you might learn something.

    Yes Bill J, its true, that democratic life in the Party assumed great importance in terms of the atrophy of the all other democratic institutions. I didn’t intend to question your judgment on that at all.

    But I’d suggest that democratic life in the party was doomed anyway without some relief in that situation. And I’m therefore a little unsure about the relevance for the present. This is not to avoid learning from real mistakes and nor am I ENTIRELY hostile to the sport of identifying potential thalheimers etc (identifying potential stalin’s implies a bit of a loss of perspective in my view) . Its been suggested to me by one comrade that they might be summed up as 1) ZINOVIEV 2) The Expulsion of Paul Levi and 3) Banning factions with 4) Stalin not a mistake but the personification of the bureacracy. Pithy at least. The point being that the precise ordering of these mistakes is quite hard to work out.

    Aside from a useless fatalism whats my political difference with you? Really, as I attempted to argue before being faced with a staccato wall of spart talk, is that some of problems of analyzing stalinism, of our tradition of analyzing stalinism, cannot really be confronted if you see the rise of the Stalin system purely in terms of bureaucratic deformations. Which I have no problem accepting were there as early as the first months of 1918. I don’t think Stalinism is simply about superstructural problems. To recapture the radically democratic nature of revolutionary politics we have to recognize the limitations of that approach.

    Namely that it is workers power that defines a workers state. No matter how radically democratic the bolsheviks could have remained or for how long, they could not have endlessly substituted themselves for workers without turning into their opposites.

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  370. the latter point is important because whilst its rather unlikely that any of us might find ourselves chasing anarchists across the ice in the near future, there ARE forms of substitutionalism which can quite happily co-exist with small groups of people having free internal discussions. Various forms of ultraleftism for instance.

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  371. I was a bit worried in this respect by the comrade who believed that our only problems were subjective ones. This always worries me a little, even if I recognise the good intentions behind the sentiment.

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  372. And to Jason: our only disagreement really is one of perspective. What happens if the arguments inside the organisation have little to do with arguments happening inside the class (lets say your organisation is made up of people obsessed with ideological disagreements about the political signicance of train spotting or proust). And there are lets say fifty of you. With perhaps a hand full of people with a bit more nouse (its sounds ridiculous but its a pretty enviable situation compared to that faced by the Bolsheviks in 1919). Its unclear in that situation that having more and more factions is going to help you much. The debates about factions in most present day political organisations have more to do with aprehensions of the former farcical situation then they do with the problems of the kind of organisation we actually want. This is not to say that I think factions are neccessarily a bad thing. Its just to say that I wouldn’t turn it into a principle. Unless of course its a lever in a debate about something else. In which case of course bombs away!

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  373. Factionalism in itself is not a gurantee of success but I think being open to new ideas, drawing in discussion, not acting arrogantly and assuming you have all the answers is pretty essential.

    It; no gurantee of course that we’ll get there. But having a monloithic organisation that promotes loyalty above creativity is pretty much a non-starter.

    And in terms of Russia of course the degenration was largely overwhelmingly because of isolation, objective factors but the turn to bureaucracy and closing down of party and soviet life were huge errors nonetheless and ones we should learn from by recognising that workers’ democracy is the lifeblood of the revolution and socialism.

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  374. To be a bit more serious what might be called the ‘proust problem’ was a real one for Trots at certain stages. The old CPI’s attracted the cream of working class militants. This very often was not the case in the Trotskyist movement. Unfortunately this could breed authoritarian attitudes, paradoxically amongst the more talented and solid comrades (Cannon being perhaps the prime example).

    Later, after the movement experienced real growth, real problems erupted when the movement hit the buffers and what were much larger, but still in relationship to the class pretty small organisations, went into crisis and splits. These often aquired a demented logic of their own, as anyone who has lived through a faction fight will tell you (and as popular jokes about trots will testify). It was in response to this real situation that some groups tolerated what came to be called permenant factions and other people eschewed them.

    The result was a bit of a mixed bag all round. But I’m unsure that it isn’t usually better to root your understanding of present arguments in their actual historical contexts rather then imagining yourself to be a KPD member in 1923 or a Bolshevik in 1919. Thats not to say that such discussions are meaningless. Its important to get general principles straight. But the connection between general principles and practice is a mediated one. If there is fifteen of you in a room its probably best to recognise that your not in Berlin in 1923. If there are a couple of thousand of you its probably best to recognize that not every argument you have will spontaniously reflect real arguments in the class. It probably does require a bit of a push to ensure that.

    If there are fifty thousand or one hundred thousand of you its an entirely different ball game.

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  375. On the party class problem in the early years the two words ‘Lenin Levy’ spring to mind. It wasn’t proust lovers that were the problem here. It was radishes (ie red on the outside white on the inside).

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  376. johng, I’ll give you til tomorrow to find the document where Trotsky characterised any state as being a fascist workers state or even the possibility that any state per se could become one of those. You won’t find it – I know that already. I won’t subjectively personalise with anyone on here – I’ll simply continue asking this question ad infinitum until you admit you’re simply wrong.

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  377. Oh by the way factionLISM is never good. It implies the substitution of faction for ideology. Factions can be good.

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  378. to johng
    Yes granted but most of the left’s model at the moment is one of party discipline, the line, hierarchical organisation with some (varying) democracy, a lot of jargon, a lot of subterranean hostility to anyone disagreeing or even appearing to question the party line and some very overt hostility to anyone seeming to carry the argument against the party’s pre-ordained trammels.

    Even allowing for a bit of exaggeration that is I think not a completely unfair summary of much of the left.

    Now much of that is because we are small and the reason we are small is because of the defeats of the workers’ movement and many objective factors (in other words we’re not small exclusively or mainly because of our deficiencies- indeed many of our deficiencies are because of our isolation)

    But… but still we need to change the model and learn, especially because there will be tmes when we have real opportunities but if we are stuck in wrong methods we risk throwing away those opportunities.

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  379. Interesting exchange of ideas there ray.

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  380. Jason I don’t actually disagree.

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  381. Ray check out Trotsky’s debate about whether or not you could have ‘counter-revolutionary workers states’ in which he suggested that there were fascist currents in the bureacracy.

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  382. that last reply by me was to johng’s
    “. If there are a couple of thousand of you its probably best to recognize that not every argument you have will spontaniously reflect real arguments in the class. It probably does require a bit of a push to ensure that.

    If there are fifty thousand or one hundred thousand of you its an entirely different ball game.”

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  383. yeah we don’t actually disagree. but i do think these discussions need to be tempered by the kind of realism I alluded to. not cynical realpolitick but some sense of the real problems involved and why we don’t look like the bolsheviks. otherwise there is a danger of the kind of play acting that leads to the same problem anyway.

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  384. johng, now I know your edging your position and you’ve left all the work to me, the insatiable Trotskyist that I am. http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1939/09/ussr-war.htm The relevant section is under the ninth heading ‘The Theory of ‘Collective Bureaucratism’. You are not the first johng, to falsely interpret Trotsky – and you’ll not be the last.

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  385. Interestingly point eight is the one that leads me to conclude that Trotsky would have altered his perspective at the conclusion of the second world war and its aftermath rather then like Cannon absurdly exclaiming that the second world war was over. The actual discussion I was referring to was a different one. But you have the better of me in the hunting down the quote department, I’ll grant you that. But you surely would concede that the whole basis of degenerated workers state theses was a split between economics and politics (at least after revolution betrayed? The tensions inside Trotskyist organisations about the problems with this, whilst its true, at the time reflecting unprincipled blocks of various kinds, DID point to a real problem. Trotsky himself in the very interesting passage you sent to me was at pains to stress the provisionality of his hypothesis. What on earth would he have made of the post-war world? We know it tore what was left of the Trotskyist movement apart.

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  386. But thanks very much for the link. Its an absolutely fascinating document.

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  387. second world war was NOT over of course.

    When it came to the expansion of ‘actually existing socialism’ Trotskyists for a number of years found themselves in the sorry state of those Jehovah’s Witnesses who apparently have a wonk in their theology which means that a single well placed question can throw them into fits of hysteria (in the case of jehovah’s witnesses it takes the form of the fact that in their scriptures the number who can be saved is limited. And a hundred years after they were written all the seats in heaven are already taken. Apparently some cruel people like to invite Jehovah’s witnesses in for tea and then without warning innocently ask about this).

    Importantly whilst I think the roots of this lay in some of Trotsky’s provisional sketches I think the real problem was that of people who thought it was their mission to preserve the ‘word’. I can’t imagine that Trotsky himself would have reduced himself to this. But then again who knows. As the young Trotsky once observed ‘infallibility is for popes not marxists’.

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  388. Meanwhile this article in this months International Socialism takes another look at what we were up to theoretically at the time. Its quite an innovative piece from the standpoint of our tradition. Heresy hunters will find a rich seam to mine here:
    http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=660&issue=127

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  389. Trotsky said the bureaucracy was akin to fascism except based on planned property, a pretty apt description in my opinion.
    Trotsky may or may not have changed his opinion after the war how can we ever know? But he certainly would not have been a state capitalist for the simple reason that the USSR was not capitalist.

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  390. Jason: This thread was started with an analysis that the reason the radical or revolutionary left was paralysed by its division into sects, bureaucratic centrist sects and cults was something to do with Lenin and Trotsky and the methods they advocated for organisation. Billj told us that Lenin had reintroduced capitalism in 1921 and along with Trotsky had squashed workers democracy through NEP, the putting down of the Kronstadt rebellion and the temporary ban on ORGANISED factions in the party. But in your comment at 6.54 yesterday you approvingly quote trotsky on organisation. Could you enlighten us as to which bit of Trotsky it is that you no longer adhere to so that we can have a less slippery discussion and really get to grips with the issues?

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  391. David: I think the argument has been consistent throughout.

    The argument is that some of the features of the Russian revolution were bureaucratic because of isolation, because of civil war, because of exhaustion and all the rest of it and that in our opinions some of the decisions of the tenth party congress and trhe Bolshevik leaders were mistaken- e.g. the ban on factions. Was NEP a mistake? Not necessarily- it was a step backwards of course but may be a needed one but to quote Mark “it was absolutely essential that the party that had been temporarily entrusted with stewardship on behalf of the workers of the dictatorship of the proletariat, should maintain the highest levels of internal democracy, keep open the possibility of the renewal and change of leadership, and be allowed to reflect the moods and trends of the working class so that as it revived that class could once again exercise direct control of its fate through its own recreated organs of democracy.”

    In terms of the Trotsky quote

    “The inner regime of the Bolshevik party was characterized by the method of democratic centralism. The combination of these two concepts, democracy and centralism, is not in the least contradictory. The party took watchful care not only that its boundaries should always be strictly defined, but also that all those who entered these boundaries should enjoy the actual right to define the direction of the party policy. Freedom of criticism and intellectual struggle was an irrevocable content of the party democracy. The present doctrine that Bolshevism does not tolerate factions is a myth of epoch decline. In reality the history of Bolshevism is a history of the struggle of factions. And, indeed, how could a genuinely revolutionary organization, setting itself the task of overthrowing the world and uniting under its banner the most audacious iconoclasts, fighters and insurgents, live and develop without intellectual conflicts, without groupings and temporary factional formations? The farsightedness of the Bolshevik leadership often made it possible to soften conflicts and shorten the duration of factional struggle, but no more than that. The Central Committee relied upon this seething democratic support. From this it derived the audacity to make decisions and give orders. ”
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch05.htm#ch05-1
    I’d agree with everything except (with the benefit of hindsight) the wisdom of banning factions in the first place which Trotsky in another quote acknowledges facilitated the growth of the apparatus and played into Stalin’s hands.
    “However, what was in its original design merely a necessary concession to a difficult situation, proved perfectly suited to the taste of the bureaucracy, which had then begun to approach the inner life of the party exclusively from the viewpoint of convenience in administration. ”

    Trotskyism and Bolshevism are not religions- they allow and indeed encourage frank and open criticism even of leaders. Why? Because the power of the working class is based on mass seething democracy not holy dogma that makes the word of leaders into some immutable law.

    So we agree with much of Trotsky but reserve the right to criticise him- I’d also criticise him on the porposals for militarisation of labour, for incorparation of trade unions into the state apparatus and other things. But the basic program of soviet democracy, transitional demands, workers’ control- we agree with.

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  392. `I was a bit worried in this respect by the comrade who believed that our only problems were subjective ones’

    Though the degeneration of the Fourth and its caputure by shysters was due to objective factors the division of the Marxist left into centrist self serving sects is now itself an objective factor preventing our further progress. Billj has been a major symptom of that problem with his total incapacity to perform exemplary work in the labour movement generally. PR’s revisionism is not an attempt to transcend that problem it is a further symptom of it. Billj has extended his sectarianism all the way back to 1921 to 1924 where he refuses solidarity to the revolutionary internationalists defending the revolution against bureaucratic degeneration and petty bourgeois restorationists. Unity of the marxist left will only be achieved on the basis of method and truth billj is, in fine sectarian fashion, creating his own truth for his own ends. He tells us things he no longer defends but he never demonstrates where Lenin and Trotsky broke with the marxist method. He simply says they must have after all `look at us today’ refusing all self-responsibility or critcism. His sectarianism today shows itself most starkly in his refusal to defend the Chinese worker state against the all-consuming bureaucracy and the restorationists. Such is the extent of his sectarianism that he has even characterised the Chinese state as imperialist relieving himself of any necessity to defend China in the event of its being attacked by the West or a proxy of the West. In billj’s perfectly principled world everything is black and white which is why there will never be a revolution he can support either in the past or the future. From now on I suspect however that rather than counterposing himself to the labour movement in the most sectarian manner as he has always done in the past he will now embrace that movement uncritically and become part of not a movement but a swamp. This will follow a period of ultra-left anarchism and growing anti-communism.

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  393. Jason: there is some serious back tracking going on in that comment and that is good. But let us not pretend that what was presented here was criticism of Lenin and Trotsky. It was an all out assault on the revolution itself and its two most prominent leaders.

    Of course Lenin and Trotsky should be assimilated critically and not religiously but we have not been presented with any clear idea of what it is exactly that you disagree with. You say the banning of factions was a mistake but you just say it you do not engage with what Lenin said at the time and show us the fault in his argument or where he departed from the marxist method. Billj is more apparent, he openly calls it a crime and points to an actual article that he disagrees with, even though none of what billj says makes logical sense. So for instance capitalism was introduced by Lenin and Trotsky in 1921 and Stalin somehow overturned capitalism in 1924.

    Trotsky criticised himself on the things you mention in your final paragraph so you are hardly on controversial or new ground there.

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  394. How do you know what work I perform in the labour movement? More abuse trying to excuse nonsense.

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  395. Come off it we’ve had years of your ultra left rantings.

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  396. David E, the concession that – ‘Trotsky criticised himself on the things you mention …’ – is not correct. He was merely but importantly affirming the fact that the rise of the Thermidor of Stalinism was aided by the administrative convenience of the banning of factions and not that the banning ‘in itself’ was a knowable germ of the Thermidor at its inception. The original French Thermidor of the Jacobins gave the Bolsheviks much food for thought over many years especially so and pertinently after the turnovers of February and October of 1917. There could have been no insurance against the Russian Thermidor in foresight owing to the completely new conditions. Mark Hoskisson would have rendered a more succinct and progressive discourse if he had really understood both that first and second Thermidor in their context as to their historically true, originality. The 18th Brumaire of Marx and the later Revolution Betrayed of Trotsky, were not primarily written from the perspective of mistakes – like, it could have been so different. Find the ‘original sin’. This opens the door to the re-writing of history and diminishes the fight against the degeneration to which the likes of the 2nd International under Kautsky, Vandervelde and McDonald amongst others, had had a far greater impact than the processes empirically developing in Russia which found a new ‘Directory’ through Stalin.

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  397. Sure you enjoy them and of course we’ve had years of your measured and thoughtful responses to the questions under discussion, but what’s that got to do with my work in the labour movement or yours for that matter. I have no idea what you do at all, I don’t judge the merits of your arguments on this basis, there’s no need to, after all they really do speak for themselves.

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  398. Ray: I agree and have made that point many times myself in ths thread. Jason mentioned Trotsky’s position on trade unions from 1919-20 I think it was and I merely pointed out that Trotsky himself had already criticised himself on the matter.

    billJ: `after all they really do speak for themselves.’

    Yes they do and your arguements have invariably been ultra left.

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  399. Ultra left, swivel eyed neo nazi, counter revolutionary, anti-Leninist.
    Yawn.

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  400. Neo-nazi? Don’t think I called you that but you were never one to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

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  401. What on earth is “swivel eyed”?

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  402. Actually it was “That just make you sound like some swivel-eyed nazi” : no “neo-” about it at all. And I think you missed out anarchist, idiotic child and possibly hedaing to the right og Genghis Khan.

    for the simple reason that the USSR was not capitalist.
    Sodium and chlorine aren’t salt, but they are when combined.You have frequently claimed that Cliff said the USSR wasn’t capitalist, you know well by now that his argument is that regardless of its internal functioning, when faced with a globalised capitalist system we can’t abstract away from that and ignore the competition that makes it function as a part of that capitalist system. If you are going to engage with the argument (and I have previously said on this thread that you needn’t bother if you don’t want to) it undermines your commitment to the fight against narrow-minded sectarianism to wish it away with a sleight-of-hand.

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  403. jimp: It’s what happens when the petty bourgs get into a frenzy like at the nuremburg rallies or when the stalinists bated the Left Opposition or when sects split or when Pol Pot went on a killing spree. They get very worked up and their eyes start rolling around in their sockets in a sort of mania or madness or frenzy.

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  404. `sound like’ and `are’ are different things Skidward.

    The only sleight of hand is that of the state capitalists. They substitute an economic analysis for a political one and then wonder how they ended up cheering the new Russian imperialists into power.

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  405. I’m not sure I understand one of John Gs comments above. In relation to a listing of Lenins errors from another place he remarks that he is not ” ENTIRELY hostile to the sport of identifying potential thalheimers”.

    But was it not the case that Thalheimer was correct, against trotsky, as to the causes of the failure of the German October in 1923? Unless of course John meant to refer to Thalmann!

    By the way John in I agree with your position in general but you do seem to be saying that factions can be positive, whether good, bad or indifferent politically, but can only be allowed in a MASS party. I would argue that factions are useful only in so far as they clarify debates within a revolutionary grouping and that size, although important, does not change that.

    It is, for me, interesting to look at the subjective errors made by Lenin / Bolsheviks / Left Opposition or whoever but yes the objective factor are crucial. But there is an interaction between both the subjective and the objective factors is there not? (Which is why Lihs book is so important, contrary to the well meaning ignoramus Gerry Downing, as he does exactly that).

    Indeed as marxists i would argue that it is mandatory for us to look at the pastrecord of Marxism with regard to the nature of the revolutionary movement in order that we can apply the lessons learnt, or not learnt by the likes of Gerry and David, to todays movement. And yes more recent episodes could have ben avoided had we paid more attention as to the need for real internal democracy and that means a democratic culture of debate far more than it means attention to structural questions as to whther we do or do not allow so called permanent factions.

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  406. I stand corrected Skids!
    As you say we’ve been round the issue of Cliff and state capitalism before and there’s no great point in repeating it now.

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  407. “Jason: there is some serious back tracking going on in that comment and that is good. But let us not pretend that what was presented here was criticism of Lenin and Trotsky. It was an all out assault on the revolution itself and its two most prominent leaders.”

    David

    Not at all, David. From the start it has been about saying that some of the reasons for the rise of Stalin and the bureaucratic degeneration have to be some of the actions of the Bolsheviks- including the error of banning factions which was a strategic mistake leading to the beginning of Thermidor. This is what we argued from the start- to quote my FIRST post on here (apologies for the length in advance but it proves its point

    “The traditional Trotskyist answer is that the murderous Stalinist dictatorship that killed millions, held back the revolution and created a society based on suspicion, privilege, power and blind obedience to authority was a complete break and rupture from the ideals of the revolution- workers’ democracy, all power to workers’ councils, freedom of political organisation and discussion. Mark’s article in no sense demurs from this.
    What it does argue – successfully I’d suggest- is that the Bolshevik leadership made mistakes including a catastrophic one in 1921 that helped pave the way for counter-revolution. These may well have been honest and even understandable mistakes (indeed they enjoyed some support in the Bolshevik party) but once the ban on factions came into place and once the culture became one where the state was used to repress political opponents it became consolidated as a course from which it was hard if not impossible to turn back.
    Why did these mistakes happen? The context of defeat of revolution in the west (principally Germany) and the ravages of civil war and impending famine were – as is traditionally argued- were of course paramount. But as socialists now we need to learn one of the key lessons of the defeat of the revolution- the absolute importance and centrality of workers’ democracy. If that means criticising Lenin and Trotsky and some of the methods of so-called Trotskyist groups then so be it”

    and Billj’s FIRST post- “By banning factions in the working, which was part of a general suppression of democracy throughout society more thorough even than through the civil war, Lenin ensured that the rule of the apparatus through the Bolshevik Party could not longer be challenged from within it.
    Therefore 1921 was the date of Thermidor”

    And Mark’s first (and sadly so far only) post- perhaps he’s still reading the thread though?
    ” Liam

    Thanks for this response to the article. Much appreciated. Lots of good stuff in it and I think your reference to the old USFI document opens up an interesting field of debate in relation to multi-party democracy in the context of a soviet style state.”

    We are quite clearly criticising actions of revolutionaries as supporters of the revolution and supporters of revolution today. As some once said those who oppose the revolution have no right to criticise the actions of revolutionaries but those who support have a duty to do so- why? So we can make it better next time. Hardly the action of those abandoning the left as Gerry claimed (‘you are an anti-Leninist/Trotskyist apologist for the Commune Swamp into which you are headed’) let alone ‘swivel-eyed Nazis’
    You and Gerry are the ones who decided this was all “criticising Lenin and Trotsky here from a right wing anti-revolution position and ditching the Trotskyist and Lenninist methods” (post 281) But it’s all in your imagination.

    We want the working class to achieve power. We want the left to rebuild itself and a revolutionary workers’ movement. To achieve that we need a culture change back to a sort of movement where there can be open criticism where you could argue openly against the party and majority line- as indeed Lenin did and won the party to his arguments in 1917 by arguing for the revolution and all power to the soviets.

    Only by having a thorough going genuine mass democracy where decisions are discussed and voted on by workers cna we build a socialist society. That includes having the right to learn from history and make the revolution better, more robust and sustainable.

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  408. “`sound like’ and `are’ are different things” David.

    So Bill you are only ‘like a swivel-eyed Nazi’ not actually one! Phew I expect you’ll sleep easier now.

    On a serious level it would be good if the left could have discussions without insults being bandied about. I guess I’m a bit quaint but I’ve always thought rudeness is counter-productive if we’re trying to build an effective working class movement.

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  409. `Not at all, David. From the start it has been about saying that some of the reasons for the rise of Stalin and the bureaucratic degeneration have to be some of the actions of the Bolsheviks- including the error of banning factions which was a strategic mistake leading to the beginning of Thermidor. This is what we argued from the start- to quote my FIRST post on here (apologies for the length in advance but it proves its point.’

    Well in that case I take it back, there has been no back sliding on your part and you are just as anti-materialist, anti-marxist as billj.

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  410. `Only by having a thorough going genuine mass democracy where decisions are discussed and voted on by workers cna we build a socialist society. That includes having the right to learn from history and make the revolution better, more robust and sustainable.’

    You think you can do without Marxism but you cannot. Marxists discussed all decisions from 1921 to 1924. You and billj have stated those decision were either mistakes (jason) or crimes (billj) because they led to Stalinism or were Stalinist. I have posted Trotsky’s 1938 article on Kronstadt above. Would it be too much to ask for you to quote a passage or two from that article that you disagree with or even the specific sentences or passages that express a mistake or a crime from Lenin’s `Better …’ article that billj mentions as expressing his determination to crush the revolution.

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  411. Neprim: `Indeed as marxists i would argue that it is mandatory for us to look at the past record of Marxism with regard to the nature of the revolutionary movement in order that we can apply the lessons learnt, or not learnt by the likes of Gerry and David, to todays movement.’

    Don’t be so coy. Please enlighten us as to the lessons you have abstracted from your studies of the actions and writings of Lenin and Trotsky from 1921 to 1924. What with you being the biggest ultra left clown on the entire web I await your reply with no interest.

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  412. I hold that what we are getting from PR in this case is a fundamental failure to understand Mrxism. Instead we must concentrate on the psychology of Lenin and Trotsky to understand what happened. Check out this article from 1994 where they specifically reject Marxism saying “We have to grasp the reality of individual behaviour through a dialectical materialist psychology.” I have abstracted the relevant quotes to illustrate why we are finding it so difficult to penetrate the wall of the “guilt” of Lenin and Trotsky:

    http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/marxism-psychology-and-bulger-case

    Marxism, psychology and the Bulger case

    Thu, 31/03/1994 – 22:00

    In our original article on the subject ( 173, December 1993) we argued that the event was “an aberration, a qualitatively different viciousness that defies pat explanations” and that the answer as to why the two boys killed James Bulger “lies deep in the psyche of the killers themselves”.

    If we want to understand the society which produced James Bulger’s murderers, with its child abuse and poverty, its two-faced attitude to children’s rights and responsibilities, its lurid video nasties and its moralising bigots, only Marxism will suffice.

    If we want to understand the particular effect of that society on the children—how the institution of the “bourgeois family” was mediated through the actual families of James Bulger’s murderers—we cannot rely on Marxism’s understanding of society’s laws alone.

    We have to grasp the reality of individual behaviour through a dialectical materialist psychology.

    On the other hand, two readers argued that distinctly social reasons can explain why James Bulger was killed.
    Gerry Downing claims that “the cause was the disturbed and decaying social relations in the capitalist society as a whole”. Quentin Rudland writes that “at least one of the two murderers had probably been severely abused by an adult” .
    These are attempts to provide a materialist explanation. Unfortunately, merely because a theory attempts to root itself in material factors does not mean it is right.
    In this particular case, these “explanations” do not help us one bit. This is not the first phase of decay in capitalist relations, nor is Liverpool the hardest-hit place on the face of the planet, and yet the Bulger case was so striking because it was so unusual. Similarly, many children are abused. Virtually none of them kill other children.

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  413. So really Mark’s theory goes right back to the James Bulger case!
    This is getting silly.

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  414. Upset are you young David? Diddums.

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  415. One recent book worth reading, this is addressed to the PR comrades, is Revolution and Counterrevolution: Class Struggle in a Moscow Metal Factory by Kevin Murphy.

    Based on original research in the Russian archives it argues that although oppositionists were increasingly marginalised as the 1920s progressed threre was still room for debate within the factories.

    I cannot summarise the entire book but it is suggestive to me that Russia remained a bureaucratically degenerated workers’ state until the Five Year Plan.

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  416. Spot the difference-
    ” some of the reasons for the rise of Stalin and the bureaucratic degeneration have to be some of the actions of the Bolsheviks- including the error of banning factions which was a strategic mistake leading to the beginning of Thermidor. Why did these mistakes happen? The context of defeat of revolution in the west (principally Germany) and the ravages of civil war and impending famine were – as is traditionally argued- were of course ”

    “some of the features of the Russian revolution were bureaucratic because of isolation, because of civil war, because of exhaustion and all the rest of it and that in our opinions some of the decisions of the tenth party congress and trhe Bolshevik leaders were mistaken- e.g. the ban on factions”

    According to David one is back in the revolutionary fold, the other is irredeemably counter-revolutionary.

    neprimerimye
    I reviewed that book here:
    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2242

    I agree it’s very good and that it is suggestive that some form of workers’ state, albeit degenerated, persisted for a few years in the 20s. However, the book also gives some evidence of how that degeneration began to take place. Mark’s argument is that Thermidor began in 1921 in decisions that later paved the way for counter-revolution.

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  417. `Upset are you young David? Diddums.’

    The only thing that upsests me is that twats like you call themselves marxists rather than twats and the fact that you are polluting this planet.

    `Mark’s argument is that Thermidor began in 1921 in decisions that later paved the way for counter-revolution.’

    This is what makes you a burke.

    Bulger was killed because the boys had been trained to pursue their interests through violence and were practicing for what they had been taught much as they are in public school and sandhurst.

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  418. Jason: I have argued throughout that the banning of organised factions in these particular circumstances was not a mistake or a crime and neither did it lead to stalinism so why lie that I have?

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  419. ….” I agree it’s very good and that it is suggestive that some form of workers’ state, albeit degenerated, persisted for a few years in the 20s. However, the book also gives some evidence of how that degeneration began to take place. Mark’s argument is that Thermidor began in 1921 in decisions that later paved the way for counter-revolution…” Jason, once you’ve finished complimenting yourself on a review, explain the muddled term ‘some form of workers’ state (open question?) … persisted (?) for some years (start and end please) … paved the way (another mealy-mouthed way of saying on – Lenin and Trotsky’s initiative – thus began the road to the counter-revolution of Stalinism’s Thermidor).

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  420. “Jason: I have argued throughout that the banning of organised factions in these particular circumstances was not a mistake or a crime and neither did it lead to stalinism so why lie that I have?”
    David

    I never said you have argued against the ban on factions.

    After I commented in comment 393
    “The argument is that some of the features of the Russian revolution were bureaucratic because of isolation, because of civil war, because of exhaustion and all the rest of it and that in our opinions some of the decisions of the tenth party congress and the Bolshevik leaders were mistaken- e.g. the ban on factions.”
    you were very positive writing in comment 395
    “Jason: there is some serious back tracking going on in that comment and that is good.”

    Indeed Trotsky himself even acknowledges that the banning of factions helped pave the way for Stalinism-
    “In March 1921, in the days of the Kronstadt revolt, which attracted into its ranks no small number of Bolsheviks, the 10th Congress of the party thought it necessary to resort to a prohibition of factions – that is, to transfer the political regime prevailing in the state to the inner life of the ruling party. This forbidding of factions was again regarded as an exceptional measure to be abandoned at the first serious improvement in the situation. At the same time, the Central Committee was extremely cautious in applying the new law, concerning itself most of all lest it lead to a strangling of the inner life of the party.

    However, what was in its original design merely a necessary concession to a difficult situation, proved perfectly suited to the taste of the bureaucracy, which had then begun to approach the inner life of the party exclusively from the viewpoint of convenience in administration. ”
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch05.htm#ch05-1

    Perhaps David should now denounce Trotsky himself as a counter-revolutionary- how dare he suggest that banning of factions could facilitate the bureaucracy!

    Ray, two quick points when I said it was good I was referring to the book not the review (!).

    Secondly, on ‘workers’ state’ sorry if you find that a muddled term- I am quite happy to explain it but it is common parlance among many on the left.

    A workers’ state would be one where the working class controls and manages every aspect of society based on freedom and equality ruling through organs of working class power such as workers’ councils or other democratic organs of decision-making. During the revolution in Russia soviets and factory committees had this role but they were gradually assimilated into the state- this was the beginning of degeneration.

    Start and end of degeneration- it’s hard to be precise because this was a process not a discrete event but in 1921 there was some definite features of degeneration, beginning earlier though I’d say even as far back as 1918 and by around 1928 the workers had been completely expropriated from political power by the bureaucracy.

    The fact is that through isolation, failure of the international revolution, civil war, exhaustion of the working class and (horror of horrors) political mistakes by workers and the party the revolution was lost and the working class politically expropriated from power.

    As partisans of working class power for now, for daring to still believe and fight for that audacious idea that workers can rule our own lives, we think it is also possible to learn from our mistakes as class and make sure that the coming revolution protects itself from degeneration by establishing working class control and management of struggles, of the party, of the movement and of society at the heart of socialism.

    But to be able to disseminate the ideas and the practices necessary to rebuild a revolutionary workers’ party we have to lose our fear of being able to think outside the party line, to think for ourselves and rethinking some of the most cherished narratives of workers’ history. Myth-making serves tradition: liberation requires critical thinking.

    Jason

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  421. Jason: so you pick out a quote from Trotsky that you claim incriminates him and Lenin in Stalinist Thermidor. Clearly there is only contempt left for Trotsky in your thinking. If you examine the quote honestly you will see that the temporary ban on organised factions is a `necessary concession to difficult conditions’. Necessary. The fact that the Stalinists picked it up and ran with it later is neither here nor there when it comes to evaluating the necessity of the policy at the time it was implemented originally. Lenin’s body was mumified and displayed for 70 odd years for tourists to gawp at. Does this also make Lenin complicit in the rise of Stalinism or one of its, albeit posthumous, victims?

    It is excellent that the cultists, sectarians and bureaucratic centrists with their formal adherence to Trotskyism are slowly ditching even that formality for Gramscinism, anarcho-syndicalism, empiricism, eclecticism and so on and so forth. One has even joined the coalition government. The new objective reality is making even the slightest agreement with the revolutionary marxists a dangerous pass time for those who really are not into that sort of thing in the final analysis.

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  422. Arguing with David Ellis is not a fruitful task, for the simple reason that you are arguing with a secular version of religious belief, not engaging in a discussion about history and politics.

    He says

    “Clearly there is only contempt left for Trotsky in your thinking.”

    Clearly this is not true in terms of what Jason actually said. And even in terms of Mark H’s argument, DE’s statement that this view “incriminates him [Trotsky] and Lenin in Stalinist Thermidor” is untrue, even at the formal level. For neither Mark H, nor for that matter Trotsky, say that ‘Thermidor’ was ‘Stalinist’ from the beginning.

    Stalin, Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Rykov, Tomsky, Tukhachevsky and many more all bore responsibility for Thermidor according to Trotsky – once he had clarfied his concept of Thermidor after 1933. See his essay – ‘The Workers State and the question of Thermidor and Bonapartism”. All of these in their own way opposed Stalin as the regime developed, and were victims of him.

    Stalin’s regime was, according to Trotsky, not synonymous with Thermidor, but rather a further development from it. His further analogy was with the Consulate and Empire of Napoleon I, which again was not Thermidor but a development upon its foundations.

    This deification of Lenin by David Ellis is totally ahistorical. Lenin never lived long enough to show definitively where he would stand over the degeneration of the Russian revolution, though there were some very good signs before he died. Trotsky of course did, and there is no need to take away the enormous credit due to him for that. But that does not exclude the possibility that if conditions had been slightly different, he could have been induced to capitulate.

    Both Zinoviev and Kamenev, who were part of the Thermidorian regime even according to Trotsky, later joined with Trotsky in opposition for a couple of years before capitulating again to Stalin. They were flawed people, but even they resisted some of the consequences of their own errors for a while.

    Such fine revolutionaries as Christian Rakovsky also capitulated to Stalin. In Rakovsky’s place, this was because he was imprisoned and subject to the pressure and abuse of the developing regime, whereas Trotsky was exiled. If Trotsky had not been exiled, but dealt with in some other way, who knows what might have happened?

    Or what if Zinoviev and/or Kamenev had been driven into exile along with Trotsky? That was also possible, and highly contingent. History may well have looked rather different then. And no doubt then some religious follower would be characterising criticism of their more dubious actions as motivated by anti-communism, or comparable nonsense. And an oppositional communist movement led by exiled Zinoviev, Kamenev and Trotsky would have no doubt have imbibed even more crude Comintern practices than the Trotskyist movement we know today has.

    Actually, the only person arguing (in part) against Mark H’s thesis is John G, who is very thoughtful as usual and far superior to the incredible rantings of Gerry and David. I will come back to this when I get time, but I would just tend to note that John G, while very thoughtful, does tend ultimately to defend the contemporary practice of the SWP. That is natural, as he is a loyal SWP member, albeit one with a creditable record of speaking his mind about some disagreements. But I do think his analysis is slightly limited by this. But as I said, I will come back to this in due course and after further thought.

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  423. Actually, I should say the only person arguing coherently against Mark H’s thesis is John G, just to clarify.

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  424. ID: I really hadn’t realised just how dishonest you are in debate until this thread.

    There is no deification going on here but there is a character assassination of both Lenin and Trotsky on the desparate grounds in ID’s case of what they might have done. Your ramblings above are all about ifs and buts. Show us how and where by defending the putting down of the Kronstadt rebellion, the introduction of NEP and supporting the temporary ban on organised factions (not democracy by the way) Lenin and Trotsky broke with Marxism and the marxist method.

    Jason quotes trotsky above to prove that trotsky himself believed he was complicit in rise of Stalinism but I showed that the quote had been dishonestly deployed. What have you got to say about that? Fuck all.

    Point out to us the passages in Lenin and Trotsky that demonstrate the inevitability of the degeneration of the Fourth Intenational into sects and cults. Give us something to grapple with instead of bald statement posing as fact.

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  425. “Give us something to grapple with instead of bald statement posing as fact.”

    The problem is, David, I don’t think you are capable of ‘grappling with’ anything outside a predetermined and very narrow orthodoxy. The ‘Marxist method’ is not some holy master key to everything, but as Lenin often said, is about seizing the next link in the chain to advance the struggles of the working class.

    Lenin and Trotsky were just as capable of making errors in this regard as anyone else, they were not Marxist gods, but people who were fortunate enough (or unfortunate enough, depending on how you look at it), to live and be politically active at a time when they had the opportunity to put their ideas into practice and carry out a revolution.

    I do not care if a cultist such as yourself thinks me ‘dishonest’. I can live with that, I can tell you.

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  426. NEP, Kronstadt and the emergency and temporary faction ban were measures taken to defend the revolution against the mounting thermidor and petty bourgeois counter-revolution. The question is not who carried out these actions but were these actions and their justifications legitimate or were they carried out by sectarians, opportunists or Marxists.

    ID: where is your proof that these actions were motivated by anything other than the legitimate defence of the revolution. Trotsky never repudiated these three events but counted them part of the struggle against bureaucratism, Thermidor and potential counter revolution. It is difficult to give credence to the credit you give him then for his later stand against the degeneration. For billj Trotsky and Lenin were complicit in Thermidor and he has broken completely from revolutionary marxism. For you and Jason these were mistakes that led to Thermidor and are proof of the necessary degeneration of the post war fourth international but you have not proved these were mistakes nor have you fully drawn out the implications if they were. Show us where you think these mistakes in practice are reflected in theory in the works of either Lenin or Trotsky and what is it in Trotskyist/Lenniist theory that must lead to organisational degeneration.

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  427. nep:

    “I would argue that factions are useful only in so far as they clarify debates within a revolutionary grouping and that size, although important, does not change that.”

    I would broadly agree. My point was a) that that is indeed the basis of the argument but b) it is important not to get too carried away with our own importance. To imagine that the internal life of a smallish group of revolutionary socialists will exactly duplicate that of the Bolsheviks is probably to make a kind of category mistake. This is important when looked at the very problematical history of Trotskyist organisations which operated in entirely different historical circumstances. This should not be taken as an excuse for endless apologetics. But it is does condition the kind of criticism that makes sense. My own position on factions in general is pretty open. But I do think in assessing the history of particular organisations (the swp for example) and their changing position on the question its neccessary to go back to the particular pressures on them. If I might look quasi-enviously at the history of the LCR (with qualifications natch) I don’t feel at all envious of the history of the IMG (to think of just one example). This is not intended as a sectarian point. I thank ID for his constructive remarks.

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  428. And oh yes I got my Germans mixed up. I don’t spend THAT much time in conducting that sport obviously.

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  429. It is clear to me that Jason believes that the marxist method is an optional extra and maybe even a hinderance. His idea of party democracy is not to achieve clarity but unity. Unity for him seems to be more important than the truth and that certainly is the road to stalinism.

    Democracy in a marxist party or organisation is essential so that the correctness of the perspectives and programme can be empirically checked against reality. Nevertheless it is a marxist party and the marxists reserve the absolute right to defend the marxist method. We do not believe that anti-Marxists in our organisations can go unchallenged and if they were to capture the organisation we would, if we didn’t think we had a chance of recapturing it, have to quit and start again. Marxists are not sectarian but when it comes to Marxism we defend it, uphold it, develop it to the bitter end.

    Organised factions were banned in order that the marxists who still just had control of the party could defend the revolution against bureaucratisation and petty bourgeois restoration in a desparate situation. Secret factions representing these forces were already coming into being. The internationalists were right to try to hold out to buy as much time as they could for the isolation to be broken by revolutions in other countries. When they could no longer hold out they went into opposition to fight their cause.

    billj and co. seem to think that this temporary ban on organised factions is directly responsible for the anti-democratic behaviour of the sects, cults, bureaucratic centrist outfits of today even though these things have existed prior to Trosky and under a milllion different circumstances back to the dawn of class society, politics and religion. This is mysticism.

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  430. “where is your proof that these actions were motivated by anything other than the legitimate defence of the revolution.”

    Have you ever thought that they could be both motivated subjectively by ‘legitimate defence of the revolution’ and objectively act to undermine workers democracy by helping the bureaucracy to power?

    This is possible because at that point the revolutionaries did not fully understand what the bureaucracy was and the consequences of its increasing power. We, who have the benefit of hindsight, do not have that excuse.

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  431. “Have you ever thought that they could be both motivated subjectively by ‘legitimate defence of the revolution’ and objectively act to undermine workers democracy by helping the bureaucracy to power?”
    Once you have accepted that these were acts in defence of the revolution then you have repudiated Mark H and Bill J. I have been convinced that the banning of factions was entirely justified in the face of the immediate counter-revolution presented by Kronstadt. Any revolutionary policy can turn into its opposite in changed circumstances that is what that misunderstood quote from Trotsky was explaining. The objective is the determining factor for revoplutionists outside of the revolution itself, a point I made before but it was ignored.

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  432. ID: `Have you ever thought that they could be both motivated subjectively by ‘legitimate defence of the revolution’ and objectively act to undermine workers democracy by helping the bureaucracy to power?

    `This is possible because at that point the revolutionaries did not fully understand what the bureaucracy was and the consequences of its increasing power. We, who have the benefit of hindsight, do not have that excuse.’

    So they weren’t really mistakes then. They were decisions taken in good faith on the basis of the available information. Certainly they didn’t have the desired effect in the long term but given the objective situation it is highly unlikely that anything would except solidarising revolutions in other countries especially the imperialist heartlands. Billj and Jason think they were mistakes in principle.

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  433. Gerry Downing:

    “Once you have accepted that these were acts in defence of the revolution then you have repudiated Mark H and Bill J”

    Not so. As I said, subjectively they may have belived they were defending the revolution. Objectively, they acted to help the bureaucracy to power.

    David Ellis:

    “So they weren’t really mistakes then. They were decisions taken in good faith on the basis of the available information.”

    I have always said they were mistakes. Mistakes are generally made in good faith. If they are not made in good faith, they are not mistakes, but acts of bad faith.

    Gerry Downing

    “The objective is the determining factor for revoplutionists outside of the revolution itself, a point I made before but it was ignored.”

    Complete and utter objectivism again. Or as Michel Pablo once put it:

    “..the objective process is in the final analysis the sole determining factor, overriding all obstacles of a subjective order” (Where are we going?)

    Nuff said about this kind of silliness and where it leads.

    “Billj and Jason think they were mistakes in principle.”

    They were. It is perfectly possible to make mistakes in principle, and at the same time act in good faith, based on a faulty understanding of a situation.

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  434. `I have always said they were mistakes. Mistakes are generally made in good faith. If they are not made in good faith, they are not mistakes, but acts of bad faith.’

    You have been saying that they were mistakes in retropsect have you not though the new information you supposedly possess you have not made availble to us. They were not mistakes given that what ever information you have today was not available then to the people making the decisions. They were necessary decisions. That they held off the counter revolution for only a short time longer was not the fault of those who made those decision but of the failure of other revolutions to break the isolation.

    `They were. It is perfectly possible to make mistakes in principle, and at the same time act in good faith, based on a faulty understanding of a situation.’

    It is possible to make mistakes in good faith based on a faulty understanding of a situation but not a mistakes in principle.

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  435. From a scientific standpoint that is of the historical materialist view of a Marxist, the ‘actuality’ of the October Revolution should not really have taken place at all. The ‘origins’ of the Thermidor was implicit in the very act itself. Within Russia, a predominantly peasant population with an economic, political and cultural heritage lending itself to the ‘logic’ of – first capitalism then later socialism. This was argued not only by bourgeois ministers of the liberal Kerensky mould for a state Duma on capitalist lines with its inherited bureaucracy, but by the Mensheviks of Martov and Dan which coalesced with the views of the 2nd International of Bernstein and the extended to Kautsky, who was more subtle in cloaking his disgust for anything other than – democracy then socialism. Further still, between February and October, this spirit of acceding to historical logic imbued the WHOLE of the Bolshevik leadership (CC and party papers) with the exception of firstly Lenin and then Trotsky. The epoch of Imperialist degeneration had simultaneously revealed the degeneration of the 2nd International and ALL that was implicit in that. I would argue that the prevarication to assess the objective reality, with instead reflections to look back to a ‘bad decision’, ultimately leads to communists being led by a method back to the path of Menshevism and Kautskyism by way of Stalinism itself. This – good decision/bad decision school of thought (more method than school actually), brings historical baggage that the modern transporters disguise as a brush that will sweep clean all the dirty consequences of those times into our history today. The world revolutionary movement is developing as you read these words, the capitalists and their political servants, especially since the end of the 2nd world war, are at a loss as to how to hold back the global tide of contradictions showing as flash points, first here then there. They are the one’s with an historically outmoded system of economics and politics. They are the one’s who cannot face the epoch with confidence in man-kinds’ future viability. The permanent revolution only retains all of its relevance today when we look to our tasks, when the objective crisis dominates our thoughts toward embracing the consequences of our interaction with it. If Lenin and Trotsky had allowed Kornilov to institute an originally new fascist regime in Russia in August 1917, if the German communists had a party steeled and theoretically led by Lenin’s, where would the legacy of Ramsay McDonald through Gordon Brown, be today. If if if ……

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  436. “It is possible to make mistakes in good faith based on a faulty understanding of a situation but not a mistakes in principle.”

    Who says?

    That is a really silly statement, that has nothing to do with Marxism, materialism, or even basic rationality.

    Its perfectly possible to walk into a lampost in good faith if you don’t notice it is there. Is that a mistake in principle? Your bruised noddle might well think so.

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  437. And all that sillyness about being determing consciousness from stupid people like Marx you crass idealist idiot

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  438. Being might determine conciousness, but not one-sidedly in a mechanical way. Consciousness (i.e. the subjective factor) is also crucial in determining which direction history takes when things are finely balanced. And few things were more finely balanced that Russia in the first few years after the revolution.

    Would you like to argue concretely against that idea?

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  439. ID: all I can say is your principles must be very flexible or that you are of the belief that principles can be ditched when necessary.

    Walking into a lampost by accident is a mistake based on lack of information not on the ditching of any principle such as `walking into lamposts is not a good idea’.

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  440. So what about the ‘lack of information’ about the real danger that the rise of bureaucracy represented to the revolution, and the use that restrictions on workers and party democracy might be put to by that bureaucracy?

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  441. I don’t think the people taking the decision were lacking in either information or a proper understanding of the real danger that the revolution was in which is why it was neither a crime or a mistake in principle or a mistake but a necessary measure albeit reluctantly taken.

    There are a million and one things said by Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky that, by ripping them out of context, have been used to justify all sorts of vile things but that doesn’t mean it was a mistake for them to say these things in the first place.

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  442. Do you think for instance it was a mistake that the second international was built given that we now know it was to degenerate under the changed material conditions of advanced capitalism and imperialism.

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  443. And David, what say they on the Third International against the 2nd’rs, from whence some argued later, had facilitated the Stalinist stranglehold of the workers movement in Europe. Sins and sins upon sins. Who is pure in all this turmoil? Scepiticism and cynicism will lead through revisionism then Stalinism – back into the fold of bourgeois ideology.

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  444. But they did not have a proper understanding of the dangers to the revolution, for the simple reason that they did not understand the specific danger of a bureaucratic regime strangling the working class and remaining in power.

    They thought the only real danger was that the regime would disintegrate and that capitalism would be restored in a relatively straightforward manner. They saw every phenomenon through the prism of this viewpoint, from an exagerated view of the danger of counterrevolution through disintegration, while undertestimating the danger of a different kind of counterrevolution through degeneration and the destruction of what was left of workers power from within.

    As for the formation of the Second International via the SPD, Marx and Engels had grave misgivings about the manner in which it was formed. Read ‘Critique of the Gotha Programme’ for instance. They would rather it had developed very differently from the way it actually did and made that very clear, even if they did not have the power to make it develop as they wanted.

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  445. ID you place an a priori AND post-iori on the ‘they didn’t have a proper understanding of the dangers to the rev ….” etc. The primacy of defending what actually ‘was’, was all they (and in this ‘they’ do we mean first of all Lenin and Trotsky or not). Oh that you were there to lend a hand in a back to the future scenario – oh how things would have been different! They wouldn’t have believed you and for good reason. Stalin = Consulate -don’t be ridiculous! Why should we embrace your and Mark H’s rationale in contemporary developments. This is scholasticism, mysticism and opportunist eclecticism in an attempt to turn Marxism away from lessons that have no objective basis for repetition. Stalinism and the epochal defeats that issued from that era have been historically negated by the very globalisation of its inherent negativity in periods of proletarian crisis seeking a way out. No small part in all this has been the role of Trotskyism, for all its limitations. But the historic drive of modern society is a more powerful and ultimately the more decisive factor in the vanquishing of capitalism and its once temporary agency Stalinism.

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  446. Our job is to learn from history, not to repeat it. That includes correcting errors made by those who come before us. Even errors made in good faith if they have harmful consequences for us today and for the future. There can be no sentimentality about correcting errors based on concern for someone’s reputation. In fact, it does no good for anyone’s historic reputation if they are worshipped and regarded as effectively infallible. That kind of hero worship does a disservice to everything that Lenin and Trotsky ever stood for.

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  447. ID: They certainly knew it had to be built and agreed with its building. Engels ensured that the Marxist method came to dominate but there was no way they could have known that the 2nd would lead the European working class into a bloody fraternal war. They didn’t know it would degenerate under pressure from imperialist social bribery.

    This crisis is taking place in the imperialist heartlands themselves. It is capitalism’s terminal crisis and the ideas of Marx and Engels and the analyses of Lenin and Trotsky are all proving correct. How strange that PR and co should be jumping ship now.

    ray: you are right.

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  448. Ray-

    “From a scientific standpoint that is of the historical materialist view of a Marxist, the ‘actuality’ of the October Revolution should not really have taken place at all.”

    This is surely false. Unless one is making an argument that Trotsky’s theory of Permanent Revolution was in some sense not a scientific standpoint and not historical materialist. The myth that Trotsky’s theory implied a voluntaristic leap of some kind is very much part of the Stalinist attack on the theory (and in reality the calculations of that section of the Bolshevik leadership who opted for a state based on the rule of Soviets).

    Part of the SWP traditions critique of what was to become orthodox trotskyism is that fetish of leadership and program which grew out of isolation did in fact lead to a conception remarkably akin to the Stalinist caricature.

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  449. `Part of the SWP traditions critique of what was to become orthodox trotskyism is that fetish of leadership and program which grew out of isolation did in fact lead to a conception remarkably akin to the Stalinist caricature.’

    Perhaps you mean part of the reason the SWP abandoned Trotskyism was because of its insistence on program and leadership which is why the SWP is now a stalinist caricature where banning factions and internal discussion is part of the constitution and why it doesn’t have a program of its own.

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  450. The prognosis of Permanent Revolution was of course not concrete in its outline but by its suggestion, was an anticipation of the contradiction of a belated socio-economic national development being thrust by the modern (imperialist) era into the vanguard of revolutionary necessity and thereby doubly negating itself in quick succession in contradistinction to the 2nd Internationalist’s view of history. In 1906 Trotsky’s PR was rubbished by not only the right-wingers like Bernstein, but also the Plekhanovs, Jaures, Kautskys AND with circumspection Lenin. John G, I’m sorry that you mis-read my ‘historical materialist’ point. If Lenin in the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party could turn around his wavering party tops over the course of the 1917 Russian summer to embrace the socialist revolution and actually make it a success whilst all around, both in Petrograd and beyond borders, siren voices said this was premature Blanquism – un-historically viable. It could have been defeated, but the weight of the correlation of forces and objective factors heralded a new leadership that was prepared to go all the way. Because of the subjective, being in real harmony with the objective possibility, a transformation took place. Owing to that success other negative results ensued which we may proceed to 1921 and all that.

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  451. Or perhaps not. And it’s spelled “programme” unless you’re American or talking about computer software.

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  452. Facile reactionary comment skidmarx. Revolutionists embrace all languages – Oxford dons in English might agree with you though.

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  453. nice response to David. Skidmarx I can’t spell program either. Thats because I’m such an unashamed apologist for the SWP that I QUITE LITERALLY can’t say programme. Like otjer forms of revolutionary virtue it makes me twitch.

    But David. What have you got against Gramsci exactly?

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  454. Ray: skidward believes that Engish has more words than any other language.

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  455. `But David. What have you got against Gramsci exactly?’

    He’s a Stalinist. But not any old Stalinist but one who spent most of his time trying to come up with an intellectual gloss for the crude assault on the theory of permanent revolution and a plausible rationalization for Stalinist popular frontism.

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  456. John G.

    Sure we agree that the forms of internal democracy that is to say factions and, it should be mentioned more loosly focused tendencies, are dependent on the histories of the various groups and the objective circumstances. And it is certainly true that it is farcical for tiny groups consisting of some few dozen comrades aping the forms of the Bolshevik Party circa 1923 or, if we are lucky, 1919.

    But we do need to look at the history of the faction/party question in a little more detail than has been the case with the tradition which we would both claim allegiance to. One way not to carry out such a task would be to emulate the history of the WSL I once read. A fine illuminating document, if one wanted a history of the various factions of that group, but a history that did not relate the disintegration of the group to the changing balance of class forces. In truth it was only of relevance to heresy hunters (DE would enjoy it) and trainspotters (as a spotter I much enjoyed it i do freely confess).

    It is with regard to the above that articles, such as that under discussion, assume a degree of importance. Whether or onwe agress with the conclusions put forth by the PR comrades and I do not. Although that said I would rather join them in the swamp of the Commune than take adopt the sterile positions of the orthodox believers who have more in common with the Old Believers than any other Russian tendency of the 19/20th centuries.

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  457. `Although that said I would rather join them in the swamp of the Commune’

    You drowned in the swamp a long time ago. A more idiotic sectarian than you it would be hard to find.

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  458. Has David Ellis actually read any Gramsci?

    If he has then he must know that the attacks launched by him against Trotsky are the result of a mistaken impression on his part that Trotsky supported the theory of the offensive.

    Actually there is an argument that his work on the different degrees of development in the north and south of Italy have more than a little bearing on Trotskys conceoption of combined and uneven development.

    I further note that Gransci was, more or less, ostracized by the Stalinists when jailed by the fascists. Moreover it is not a coincidance that Italian Trotskyism originated from his supporters in the PCd’I.

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  459. David Ellis “A more idiotic sectarian than you it would be hard to find.”

    Do you own a mirror? 😉

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  460. I do enjoy watching the contortions of people try to claim Gramsci – who was literally a Stalinist in the sense that he chose Stalin over Trotsky – for Trotskyism, largely because someone in the SWP decided he was ok at some point. Probably because they saw he was popular with young people after the New Left pervsions of his work as a means of covering the retreat from class politics.

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  461. Learn to read gazzabaldy. It was noted above that he was hostile to Trotsky there is then no attempt to claim him for ‘Trotskyism’.

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  462. I can read just fine. And I can see implicit suggestions that if only he knew the facts, he wouldn’t have chosen Stalin. As when people say that hostility was based on ignorance, or that people who followed Gramsci became trotskyists. Otherwise why is it no coincidence that they became trotskyists?

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  463. I don’t think Gramsci spent any time at all trying to come out with an intellectual gloss to defend Stalinism. Nor unfortunately is it really true that his attack on Trotsky flowed from a belief that he supported the theory of the offensive. The latter can’t be true because it was Trotsky who argued with the delegation including Bordiga which Gramsci was a part of in Moscow AGAINST the theory of the offensive. Two points here. The first is that most of what Broue called the second rank of cadre in the third international did not come over to Trotskyism. I think Gramsci is best placed in this catagory (ie not a Lenin and not a Trotsky but along with others like Paul Levi a leading Communist and an irreplaceable part of the heritage of the revolutionary wave of 1917). Secondly despite deciding not to jump with Trotsky, and despite what we just have to call his dishonesty in those passages (although this may have been conditioned by a genuine unsureness of the new perspectives and arguments) he did in fact protest very strongly about the repression of the left opposition when out of jail in terms which led Togliatti to almost have a heart attack (one can read the correspondence between the two: Togliatti, after Gramsci’s death was always torn between burning the prison notes books, and, what he actually did, releasing them in dribs and drabs so as to control their ideological impact inside Italian Communism) and inside jail, according to his most respected Italian biographer Fiori, he continued to ask for Trotsky’s literature until one of his relatives warned him that if he continued like this he would lose the support of the PCI prisoners and most likely, as a consequence, die. All this is well documented and not disputed by anyone seriously interested in these matters. For Trots this raises questions about re-assessing that second rank. Obviously in the 20s and 30s when Trotsky was desperately trying to build an alternative to Stalinism priorities were the building of irreconcilable antagonism to stalinism and breaking relations with those who would not do so. Today I think a re-assessment of many of these figures are in order. Otherwise, as with Gramsci, you allow the Stalinists to claim him. And they don’t really have any rights to him either. And certainly the eurocoms don’t.

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  464. But he was also not a Trot. Thats true as well.

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  465. David Ellis on the Second international:

    “They certainly knew it had to be built and agreed with its building. Engels ensured that the Marxist method came to dominate.”

    In reality, when push came to shove, the Marxist element in the Second International was marginal, as WWI showed.

    “This crisis is taking place in the imperialist heartlands themselves. It is capitalism’s terminal crisis and the ideas of Marx and Engels and the analyses of Lenin and Trotsky are all proving correct. How strange that PR and co should be jumping ship now.”

    This could have been written by Gerry Healy any time in the 40 years before his death in 1989, or any of his surviving minions since. I assume by ‘this crisis’ you mean the current economic downturn, financial crisis and credit crunch.

    There is no crisis that is terminal for the capitalist class. You have to throw them out. ‘Trotskyism’ is in no position to do anything of the sort. If you think it is, you are utterly delusional, as much so as the Healyites at their very worst.

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  466. I can see implicit suggestions that if only he knew the facts, he wouldn’t have chosen Stalin.
    Not that many people do.
    Probably because they saw he was popular with young people after the New Left pervsions of his work as a means of covering the retreat from class politics.
    Probably because his explanation of how the ruling class maintains its intellectual hold over the working class helps to explain how capitalism has continued to survive.

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  467. Yup you’re correct John. My bad. The following quote friom harmans essay on Gramsci explains my slight confusion on this question.

    “Gramsci declared his support for the Stalin-Bukharin bloc formed in 1925. He seems to have accepted as part of an international ‘war of position’ the attempt to build ‘socialism in one country’ through making concessions to the peasants. So he identified Trotsky’s opposition to socialism in one country with an ultra-left rejection of the united front – even though he knew perfectly well that Trotsky was one of the main authors of the tactic of the united front.”

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  468. ID: `There is no crisis that is terminal for the capitalist class.’

    It will take a conscious political decision by the working class to overthrow capitalism but nevertheless this crisis is capitalism’s terminal crisis. It is all down hill from here on in for it. The working class will take power sooner or later. If however it should prove incapable of such a thing then those who think capitalism can regain some kind of renewed inner rhythm and growth and provide any kind of future for the human species in the imperialist heartlands or anywhere else are the ones seriously deluding themselves. It will take a revolution to get rid of capitalism but as Marx said long ago, in the end it is socialism or barbarism. Not the barbarism of everyday life or regionally contained extreme versions of it or short lived all-encompassing versions either. The working class will be destroyed if it fails again and there will be no coming back from such a catastrophe. The world economy will go into terminal, fatal decline accompanied by vicious global conflagrations between the imperial elites at the expense of humanity itself.

    This is not healyism or catastrophism this is a sober Marxist analysis of the prospects for the capitalist future if uncontested. The problem with healyism or clffism or any of the shysters who moved in on the post-war Trotskyist movement is that they excluded themselves from politics and preached catastrophism when there was stability. Now we will find the same types preaching defeat and stability when all is truely in flux and bursting with potential. When the revolutionary program is truely about to come into its own.

    My point about the 2nd was was it wrong to build such a thing given that we now know it degenerated to the point where marxists could no longer influence or lead it under the impact of imperialism but you clearly wish to misunderstand that and would rather start another debate on the minutiae of who said what where when and to whom.

    Skidward: of course before Gramsci we had no idea how the ruling class reproduced its rule. In fact Gramsci’s analysis is a huge step back into the idealist/revisionist swamp when it comes to explaining such things.

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  469. David Ellis

    “It will take a conscious political decision by the working class to overthrow capitalism but nevertheless this crisis is capitalism’s terminal crisis. It is all down hill from here on in for it. The working class will take power sooner or later”

    Sooner or later? If this crisis is the ‘terminal’ crisis of capitalism then the working class must take power in this crisis, that is, in this particular recessionary phase of the business cycle, in this credit crunch/financial crisis derived economic downturn.

    Otherwise, statements that this crisis is ‘terminal’ for capitalism are bluster and nonsense.

    And the assertion that “healyism or cliffism” preached catastrophism in the post WWII period also nonsense. DE does not know what he is talking about. It was healyism, not cliffism, that preached catastrophism. Cliffism preached the theory of the permanent arms economy as an explanation for the long boom. The opposite of catastrophism.

    DE is simply ignorant of this history, or he could not have written the above. How can anyone be taken seriously who accuses cliffism post WWII of being catastrophist?

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  470. “skidmarx, on August 27, 2010 at 1:07 pm Said:
    I can see implicit suggestions that if only he knew the facts, he wouldn’t have chosen Stalin.
    Not that many people do.

    Probably because they saw he was popular with young people after the New Left pervsions of his work as a means of covering the retreat from class politics.

    Probably because his explanation of how the ruling class maintains its intellectual hold over the working class helps to explain how capitalism has continued to survive.”

    Regarding the second point made by Skidmarx, I’m inclined to agree somewhat, although at the same time the hegemony stuff was used as a cover for the retreat from class politics – banging on about the BBC or whatever proved a useful substitute for actual involvement in on the ground politics. The point about how revolutionaries built their own hegemony is often forgotten in all this as well.

    As for the first point about not many people choosing Stalin. This is something else I find amusing about many of those from the broadly Trotskyist tradition. The term Stalinist is hurled at loads of parties and organisations, while at the same time it is said that Stalinism enjoys no support. This of course involves ignoring the very many mass parties that are often termed Stalinist by the very same people. So if we look at the way Stalinist is often used, then it would seem that millions continue to choose him worldwide, through their membership and support for “Stalinist” parties.

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  471. Re the above: Any other approach to the current situation would be nothing more than the deluded metaphysics of the reformist traitors. Those who truly do not believe that things have a beginning, middle and end , a youth, a maturity and a dottage. Those who do not understand that in the absence of a positive negation a negative negation will be the result as when a fly is violently terminated and squashed before it has the chance to complete its natural life cycle and produce the next generation. It is socialism or the violent, pointless and complete termination of any possible future for humankind. Those with not stake in this system need to drum that into their brains and start approaching this new period with all the seriousness it deserves and demands.

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  472. ID: Cliffism has had more than its fair share of catastrophism when it suited it but I will concede to you that Cliffism was in comparison to Healyism, at least in its formalism, extrremely conservative in postulating an economic magic bullet for capitalism.

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  473. When I said re the above I meant my previous comment. Two other comments piled in between before I posted it.

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  474. ID: sooner or later within the sweep of this crisis, which could be a few years but could be a fair bit longer, but before the crisis becomes a settled matter in favour of the imperialists and the rule of open barbarism is upon us and immovable.

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  475. So ID, which pure nursery of Trotskyism did you ascertain this profound knowledge of its history? We all came in somewhere enlighten us.

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  476. So where were the Cliff grouping ‘catastrophist’ then DE?Catastrophism and an ‘economic magic bullet’ for capitalism are polar opposites.

    And this stuff about ‘a few years but could be a fair bit longer’ (!!). How long is a ‘fair bit longer’? How long is a piece of string? This qualification renders DE’s prognosis meaningless.

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  477. Well there you are then ID the prognosis is meaningless for you, there is nothing I can do about that, you clearly have a different prognosis. The idea that capitalism has entered a new and terminal phase of crisis does not inform your analysis and you must proceed according to your understanding but it is not a marxist understanding unless you fancy proving that it is.

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  478. From: George Novack’s Understanding History
    Trotsky’s Views On Dialectical Materialism

    “The fundamental factors at work in the world that decide the turn and outcome of great events were then ranged against the cause for which Trotsky fought; they favoured and facilitated the advance of Stalin. On the basis of the defeats of the working class in Europe, the isolation of the Soviet Union, and the weariness of the Soviet masses, Stalin was being lifted up and pushed to the fore during the 1920s by the increasingly powerful Soviet bureaucrats and labour aristocrats, backed up and egged on by an acquisitive upper layer of the peasantry. The Left Opposition, headed by Trotsky, which spoke for the revolutionary movement of the world working class and fought for the interests of the Soviet poor, was being pushed aside.
    Trotsky explained over and over again that Stalin’s triumph and his own defeat did not signify the mere displacement of one individual by another, or even of one faction by another, but the definitive transfer of political power from the socialist working class to the privileged Soviet bureaucracy. He consciously tied his own fate and the fortunes of the Communist Left Opposition to the situation of the world revolution and the Russian working class.
    Trotsky had thought profoundly on the dialectical interplay between the individual and the great impersonal driving forces of history. The purely personal characteristics of individuals, he stated, have narrow limits and very quickly merge into the social conditions of their development and collectively to which they belong. “The ‘distinguishing traits’ of a person are merely individual scratches made by a higher law of development.””

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  479. I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding in this thread. The French Revolution defeated the counter-revolution when Robespierre wheeled out Madam Guillotine in the so-called Reign of Terror. That, and the arming and mobilisation of the Parisian masses consolidated the Revolution by defeating the invading armies and consolidating the ideological gains in the international consciousness. The partial equivalent was Kronstadt and the banning of factions in 1921 but it was indeed very different. The differences are:
    1. The bourgeoisie had already culturally and economically advanced with revolutionary struggles going back to the 12th century in the Languedoc and then Renaissance Italy and at least three or four revolutions (Holland Britain(X2), Scotland different, and the USA) to their credit by then.
    2. The working class could not do this, they were the mass internationally and could not capture cultural and economic hegemony before their revolution. As the revolution of the growing mass of the population in advanced countries (over 50% globally urban by 2006) they must develop a revolutionary political party that faithfully represents its world-historical interests, not just simply its consciousness at particular times. The Bolsheviks were the only mass example of such a party.
    When the Thermidor happened there was no chance that the counterrevolution of the Consulate and later Napoleon would not restore the old regime, nor did they want to. This was now in history’s dustbin and so could never revive; humans beings just did not want to live like that anymore.
    But Capitalist counterrevolution was live because world imperialism economically, culturally and socially survived the revolutionary wave of 1917-23 largely intact. The socialist revolution was a war more difficult task than the bourgeois revolution and did require a very serious study of the dialectic, which is why I posted the Novak piece immediately before this one.
    It was otherwise in Russia; the restoration of capitalism by bloody counterrevolution was a live issue from 1917 until it finally happened in 1989-91. The Russian Thermidor did not restore capitalism, Stalin defeated Bukharin after he has defeated the Left Opposition in 1928. It is significant that of the books the ‘Trotskyist’ SWP promote his two most important contributions to modern Marxism are always missing; he Revolution Betrayed and In defence of Marxism, precisely because they explain in detail what the USSR was, what happened in 1928 and what State Capitalism is and represents.
    For these reasons I reacted with profound anger at Mark Hoskisson’s characterisation of Trotsky as an idiotic Don Quixote in opposing ‘the Right’, capitalist restoration, and at the facile equation of capitalist restoration with Stalinism, as in the theory of State Capitalism. Cheering the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 by the SWP and the Mandelites of the USFI, the softness of Workers Power at the time (the unity of Germany under capitalism was what mattered reflecting their origins in the SWP) was obscene. It was the high-point of the world imperialist neo-liberal offensive, beginning with the Malvinas war, which chauvinism prepared the assault on the British miners and this in turn prepared the counter-revolutions of 1989-91. But it was Stalinism/Communism that fell, was it now? But they fell to the right, to the counter-revolution, the working class of the world was the real victim, that was what they really wanted to defeat and these leftist idiots were celebrating their own marginalisation.

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  480. “When the Thermidor happened there was no chance that the counterrevolution of the Consulate and later Napoleon would not restore the old regime, nor did they want to. This was now in history’s dustbin and so could never revive; humans beings just did not want to live like that anymore”

    The NOT should not be there, delete!

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  481. David Ellis

    “Well there you are then … the prognosis is meaningless for you, there is nothing I can do about that, you clearly have a different prognosis. The idea that capitalism has entered a new and terminal phase of crisis does not inform your analysis and you must proceed according to your understanding but it is not a marxist understanding unless you fancy proving that it is.”

    ‘Crisis’ has a very precise meaning – it refers to the downward phase of a particular economic cycle. What does ‘phase of crisis mean’? ‘Phase’ likewise refers to part of an economic cycle – in the usage above, it refers to the recessionary phase. There is also the upward phase, also known as a boom, and of course the moments of transition between the two. And there are aggravating or mitigating factors in various recessionary phases – the particular role of credit in the recent cycle was an aggravating factor in the current crisis, whereas a particular form of large-scale arms manufacture arguably acted as a mitigating factor in the economic cycles that still went on from WWII to the early 1970s during the ‘long boom’.

    You can’t ‘prove’ that anything is Marxist except by leading a successful proletarian revolution. But DE’s vision of what constitutes ‘Marxism’ seems to me to be utterly sterile and impoverished, and based on a great deal of ignorance mixed with a little bit of (misdirected) knowledge.

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  482. `You can’t ‘prove’ that anything is Marxist except by leading a successful proletarian revolution. But DE’s vision of what constitutes ‘Marxism’ seems to me to be utterly sterile and impoverished, and based on a great deal of ignorance mixed with a little bit of (misdirected) knowledge.’

    You seem to have abandoned `marxism’ as some kind of wishful thinking ID. How would you describe your approach nowadays now that you characterize Lenin and Trotsky’s various efforts to defend the revolution before its degeneration as mistaken?

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  483. Jesus, surely this thread is now going round and round in circles, bit like capitalism itself!

    I tend to think capitalism has cycles and cycles within cycles. The seperation of purchase and sale opens up the possibility of all sorts of systematic contradictions. These tend to be corrective I think. Others, related to the fall of profit or the squeeze of competition, tend to be harder fixes and as sectors become more concentrated in terms of wealth and power then on the periphery speculation and swindling run riot. I think there is a couldn’t be arsed element to stagnation, instead of investing in productive industry, creating something in a competitve world, why not just rob people blind?

    So people are exploited on the job and then robbed at every point in the chain.

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  484. So how was Socialist Review/IS/SWP ‘catastrophist’? And how long is ‘a fair bit longer’ till the collapse of capitalism either into revolution or barbarism?

    The onus is on you to answer these questions, since you characterised the Cliff tendency as ‘catastrophist’, and said that the current capitalist crisis was ‘terminal’.

    You may think you are the pope of ‘Marxism’ with the power to issue excommunications, but others have a less flattering view.

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  485. …”You can’t ‘prove’ that anything is Marxist except by leading a successful proletarian revolution …” Well that most idiotic statement perfectly reveals the absolute idealism of Mr ID. As far as everyone who has ever considered him/herself a Marxist, the founder of scientific socialism, was a certain Karl Marx, who we all know never led a successful proletarian revolution – hence Marx wasn’t a Marxist, according to ID. Your appreciation of the ‘crisis’ in the economic basis of monopoly capitalism with your attendant ignorance of the political crisis implicit in that dual relationship, makes you at best an academic evolutionist/economist, but never a revolutionary even an aspiring one. The polemicist who only sees crisis principally in economics will never give leadership in anything, he will always follow the economic accomplished fact and will throw scorn on political prognosis with dismissive scepticism. There is are two methods at work here and the reader would do well to follow most closely the reasoning behind this revelation.

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  486. Pure bombast. Impenetrable and deliberately so, to create the illusion of profundity, when there is actually no substance in what is being said. In other words, the above is just woffle

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  487. David, there will never be a final crisis of capitalism as such but this is certainly the most acute and serious one of lifetime and probably since the 30s. Bill Js economic outlook – ‘crisis, what crisis’ paved the way for Mark’s contempt for the revolutionary heritage of Lenin and Trotsky. ID is right that captialism will survive and revive but I do think it will take a catastrophic destruction of the productive forces. And we must be acutely aware of the weakness of the necessary revolutionary leadership, for which there is no substitute. That the SWP or the SP is not that leadrrship is obcvious top many of us but we have no viable alternative as yet. Unless we can forge such a leaderrship defeat is inevitable and that would indeed be a catastrophy.
    Trotsky was often acusssewd of catastrophism but the TP of 1938 did foresee a catastrophy which post war – to 1946 could have been successful revolutoions. Northern Italy Vietnam and Greece could have ‘proved’ Trotsky right

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  488. As Gerry a few posts above has made a new point I will reply.

    The suppression of Kronstadt and the ban on factions in no sense defended the revolution against capitalist counter-revolution. Those actions did however help protect some of the personnel of the bureaucracy and helped them consolidate their rule over the workers. Stalinism itself was a counter-revolutionary force that brought about the political defeat of the working class and made capitalist restoration more not less likely (as indeed happened subsequently in the 90s).

    The actions of the 10th congress supported at the time by leading Bolsheviks, including Lenin and Trotsky, may have been well motivated but they did in the long run help consolidate the power of the bureaucracy and aid the eventual victory of the class enemy exemplified by the regime under Stalin.

    The point of having these discussions now is so we can as revolutionaries make sure we learn from mistakes of the past. One of those lessons is to argue as Engles did in regard to the Paris Commune
    “that in order not to lose again its only just conquered supremacy, this working class must, on the one hand, do away with all the old repressive machinery previously used against it itself,and, on the other, safeguard itself against its own deputies and officials, by declaring them all, without exception, subject to recall at any moment.”
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/postscript.htm
    Marxism is, as ID is arguing, or should be a living guide to action. When it becomes divorced from action then it becomes ossified and mere book learning- as Lenin described it
    “restricted only to the schoolroom and divorced from the ferment of life…. cut-and-dried and memorised formulas, counsels, recipes, prescriptions and programmes”

    Instead it should be based on critical thinking,
    “assimilate it critically… make communism a guide in all your practical work.”
    “We are replacing the old drill-sergeant methods practised in bourgeois society, against the will of the majority, with the class-conscious discipline of the workers and peasants, who combine hatred of the old society with a determination, ability and readiness to unite and organise their forces for this struggle so as to forge the wills of millions and hundreds of millions of people — disunited, and scattered over the territory of a huge country — into a single will, without which defeat is inevitable”

    Lenin, 1920 http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/oct/02.htm

    Capitalism is in a political crisis- to seize the opportunities presented socialists need to help mobilise working class resistance by forming communities of struggle controlled by rank and file democracy. That is why we are having this discussion.

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  489. `You may think you are the pope of ‘Marxism’ with the power to issue excommunications, but others have a less flattering view.’

    I’m no pope but I know what marxism is and what marxism isn’t in much the same way that a chemist would be able to recognise an alchemist who was pontificating on the periodic table for what he is, i.e. not a chemist in any modern, scientific sense of the word but a mystical bullshitter.

    Gerry: I of course agree that without a conscious political decision taken by the working class capitalism will not be overthrown but I think it is possible to say that this is capitalism’s terminal crisis and if it is not replaced then it will take us all with it. I hope to write a short blog on this persctive which if it is any good maybe Liam would consider posting it up for a discussion. Apart from that ID has used some hastily written comments on a blog at the arse end of a discussion on something else to make pedantic points about terminology. Hopefully I’ll get the terminology spot on for the article.

    Very much liked theconcluding para of your 7.50am comment.

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  490. No ID, you want to revert the discussion into the bankruptcy of your ‘politics’ by way of a futile and abstract previous argument between Cliff’s ‘permanent arms economy’ and Healy’s ‘imminent catastrophy’ . This is a ground for a critique you no doubt feel comfortable with for it falls in line with the method of the ‘original sin’ contained within the start-off assertion: ‘Lenin and Trotsky facilitated Stalin’s version of the Thermidor’. This method obligates you to nothing whatsoever. The negativity of this intervention of yours has the purpose to lead astray and coalesce those that are not sure of themselves who you see as open to persuasion. You see the world of Trotskyism as between political dogmatists and economic possibilists. With yourself the mediative judge supreme. What a charlatan!

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  491. Yes Ray I think that is a spot on summary of the role ID is playing in this debate. The materialist philosophy has been well and truly dumped. Jason seems to have embraced liberalism. I predict a role in government.

    NEP, the suppression of Kronstadt and the temporary ban on oranised factions were necessary actions reluctantly taken by the interntional socialists in defence of the revolution in the hope that its isolation would be broken before Thermidor or even counter revolution could consolidate itself or overturn October. As soon as the Thermidoreans had gained the upper hand the international socalists went into opposition and were eventually eliminated as the usurping Thermidor became a powerful objective addition to the prevention of world revolution adopting policies such as Socialism In One Country and Peaceful Co-existence with Imperialism. That this Thermidor justified its existence politically by ripping quotes from Lenin and taking some of his policies totally out of context cannot be helped but can only be understood. Today’s sects and cults and bureaucratic centrist formations also use quotes from Marx, Lenin and Trotsky out of context when it suits them but one thing is for sure they have abandoned the marxist method as a method in favor of eclecticism, empiricism and hostile philosophies.

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  492. Jason, the citation you make attributing to Engels an absolute concurrence with the measures actually undertaken by the Blanquist and Proudhonist leadership of the communards in the Paris Commune is wrong if you read the whole thing. To transport France of 1871 to Russia 1921 demands an understanding of where they coincided and where they differed. These are not precepts that hold good for all time under all circumstances. You conclude too with not a little confusion on formulation: – Capitalism is in a political crisis- to seize the opportunities presented socialists need to help mobilise working class resistance by forming communities of struggle controlled by rank and file democracy. That is why we are having this discussion. I would say: Capitalism’s economic and political crisis requires a social revolution to break and dissolve the state of capital for its replacement -a state of labour. Socialists and communists are required to help organise all those that see there is no other way out. To defend against the capitalist state we have to offend against the minority-interest said state.

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  493. Just to add: the revolution degenerated not because of the courageous defence of it by Lenin and Trotsky but because of its isolation and the backwardness of the Russian economy. The degeneration was an expression of this isolation and found its political expression in Stalinism with its million and one centrist revisions of Marxism and Leninism and its endless assaults on the theory of permanent revolution and the principled united front tactic. It became the most counter revolutionary force in the international socialist movement and a massive objective obstacle to the world revolution.

    Jason, ID and Billj are arguing above in their various ways that it was the crimes, unprincipled errors and errors of Lenin and Trotsky that were responsible for the phenomena of Stalinism and that there is something in the Leninist/Trotskyist theory of organisation that must necessarily lead to degeneration. They have yet to say what that is. That is because it isn’t there and they only believe it is because their methods are thoroughly anti materialist. They say that Lenin and Trotsky capitulated to hostile class forces and crushed workers democracy because there is something in their theory that makes them do it. The `mistakes’ you see prove it as does the degeneration of the post war Fourth International. Trotskyism and for these people its `sectarian’ insistence on marxist first principles is the problem not the post war break from it that this degeneration represented. And that is the real reason for this whole discussion. Not to learn from our mistakes but to prove Lenin and Trotsky and therefore revolutionary marxism is itself mistaken in its insistence on defending the materialist method.

    If you want to know if an organisation is degenerate or not simply look at its constitution, does it contain anti-democratic clauses as a matter of principle for instance, and compare its actions to that constitution. Simple really. Everything else is just mysticism.

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  494. From Bridget Dunne’s Facebook site:

    Bridget Dunne at 13:25 on 23 August 2010

    “Most puerile of all is the argument that there was no uprising, that the sailors had made no threats, that they “only” seized the fortress and the battleships. It would seem that the Bolsheviks marched with bared chests across the ice against the fortress only because of their evil characters, their inclination to provoke conflicts artificially, their hatred of the Kronstadt sailors, or their hatred of the Anarchist doctrine (about which absolutely no one, we may say in passing, bothered in those days). Is this not childish prattle? Bound neither to time nor place, the dilettante critics try (seventeen years later!) to suggest that everything would have ended in general satisfaction if only the revolution had left the insurgent sailors alone. Unfortunately, the world counterrevolution would in no case have left them alone. The logic of the struggle would have given predominance in the fortress to the extremists, that is, to the most counterrevolutionary elements. The need for supplies would have made the fortress directly dependent upon the foreign bourgeoisie and their agents, the White emigres. All the necessary preparations toward this end were already being made. Under similar circumstances only people like the Spanish Anarchists or POUMists would have waited passively, hoping for a happy outcome. The Bolsheviks, fortunately, belonged to a different school. They considered it their duty to extinguish the fire as soon as it started, thereby reducing to a minimum the number of victims.”

    Trotsky

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  495. “Jason, ID and Billj are arguing above in their various ways that it was the crimes, unprincipled errors and errors of Lenin and Trotsky that were responsible for the phenomena of Stalinism and that there is something in the Leninist/Trotskyist theory of organisation that must necessarily lead to degeneration.”

    Not true. I am arguing that deformations were introduced into what passes for Bolshevism after the revolution through these events that contradicted the revolutionary essence of party democracy/soviet democracy that actually led the working class to power.

    Those deformations began earlier than is generally acknowledged by Trotskyists, and further that these post-revolutionary deformations marred the Trotskyist movement and were a major contributing factor that led to the phenomena of grostesque bureaucratism and even cultism among Trotskyists.

    This has nothing to do with ‘Leninism’ or ‘Trotskyism’ leading to Stalinism. There is the revolutionary socialism that led the October revolution, and there are the political trends that were shaped by the degeneration of the revolution. ‘Leninism’ and ‘Trotskyism’ are post-revolutionary terms that belong to post revolutionary factional conflicts.

    Some of those that initially played a role in the degeneration later resisted it as the degeneration deepened, but were at the same time marked by their own earlier role in the degeneration.

    Analysing this is an integral part of understanding the lessons of the revolution.

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  496. I think that’s a very good summary, ID.

    The Russian revolution is important because it shows that when workers organise and take power for themselves then it can become an unstoppable force.

    Of course today’s world is very different in many ways- we have the advantages of greater technology and communication, the ability to create a world of surplus for everyone which would make many of the operations of workers’ democracy and socialism easier but of course we also face new challenges- catastrophic climate change, for example. But it is still a world ran by capitalism, a world of elite privilege and mass misery even if large sections of the working class can be bought off for a time it is one where the vast majority of humanity have little control over their own lives- it is something we can and must change.

    The Russian revolution degenerated for many reasons. Chief amongst these were the exhaustion of the civil war, imperialist intervention and isolation after the failures of revolutionary movements in Germany and Hungary. It is not surprising that these events had some effect on the working class in Russia, not just the leaders of the Bolshevik party but many rank and file members in the party and outside. Many, including the leaders, understandably, expected the main threat of counter-revolution to come from the outside, from the bourgeois not bureaucratic degeneration from within.
    Other factors could include some of the habits of the Second International, some of the conditions of illegality the Bolsheviks had to operate under and after the civil war some of the ways in which demobilised red army commanders used elements of the centralisation necessary to win a war within the soviets themselves and the gradual merging of the soviets with state power itself not in the healthy sense of soviets forming the backbone of state power but the bureaucracy and party holding state power over the soviets.

    All of these measures may well have been conceived in good faith as temporary measures of defence of the revolution and not in many cases without reason. But what was essential was to have some mechanism whereby the working class could hold in the final analysis their leaders to account.

    Even if the ban on factions was seen by some at the time, as Trotsky argues subsequently as necessary measures of defence of the revolution it is clear that the severe compromises to soviet democracy
    hastened bureacratisation which is why Lenin realised, too late as it happened, that those around Stalin who were using the party machine to enforce discipline in the state and wider society was contrary to the interests of the revolution and the working class.

    This degeneration of the Russian revolution from within was at every turn related to the wider historical narratives of international isolation and defeat, the end of the civil war and fear of bourgeois counter-revolution. To call these mistakes crimes serves no one. They were no doubt principled and well intentioned but that is al the more reason to learn from them.

    If we want to again win the mass of working class people to the banners of socialism, of working class autonomy and democracy it is essential we learn from our own history. That is all we are arguing.

    One of the first steps today would be for socialists to put the wider interests of the movement above and beyond building their own particular group or party and to listen to differing points of view on tactics, strategy and politics.

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  497. so as to build a mass working class movement and revolution based on the democracy of workers’ councils.

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  498. Jason is correct. ” One of the first steps today would be for socialists to put the wider interests of the movement above and beyond building their own particular group or party and to listen to differing points of view on tactics, strategy and politics.”

    Differences must be respected and not used as a false reason for division. They enable the movement to educate itself by learning from these and understanding the complexities of the issues in order to go forward together.

    Last year we were moaning quite rightly about the divisions affecting the ability of the anti-capitalist Left to intervene in the elections. Now we are seeing cdes coming together in defence of the class against the Condem cuts. We also see debates on the most effective way of challenging and defeating racism and fascism.

    The impetus for greater unity and co-ordination is the extent of the attacks being made on workers living standards. Perhaps now we can also put on the agenda building a movement which we have a duty to do. Otherwise we will have failed .

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  499. In terms of authoritarian trends within Trotskyism I think there may be an underestimation of the impact of the isolation of the 1930s in this discussion. When program was substituted for mass party.

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  500. By authoritarian trend johng do you mean Trotsky’s unflinching defence of the Marxist method and his insistence on building a marxist guided international free of sectarianism and opportunism? Is the 1930s the point from which Cliff invents his alternative analysis of the Soviet Union? Is this where Gramsci comes in?

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  501. At last we have squeezed out of ID the admission that we have been talking not about mistakes but degeneration. That he and/or his co-thinkers believe NEP, the Krondstadt suppression and the temporary ban on organised faction were signs of degeneration and not sincere efforts to defend the revolution against degeneration whilst waiting for its isolation to be relieved is not new. Anarchists, ultra-lefts and sectarians, liberals, mensheviks and white russians have believed this all along and of course naturally as they had opposed the revolution itself so why would they support efforts to defend it?

    Explain to us ID how participants in the degeneration could later reject that degeneration without ever having confirmed their own role in it and repudiating that role as degenerate. For ID Trotskyism is degenerate and has been from the very beginning. Billj includes Leninism in the mix.

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  502. alf: `Differences must be respected and not used as a false reason for division. They enable the movement to educate itself by learning from these and understanding the complexities of the issues in order to go forward together.’

    A marxist understanding and analysis is not something you can buy and sell. Without revolutionary theory there will be no revolutionary practice and that you are prepared to ditch Marxism in favour of unity is quite telling. But you seem to be saying that defending marxism requires that you act in a sectarian, self-serving manner in the wider movement. It does not. If you look at the empirical evidence you will find billj, the man now dumping Lenin and Trotsky is one of the most consistent sectarians around and he is just extending that sectarianism back against the defenders of the revolution. The SWP who ditched the Marxist method for eclecticism too when not being utterly sectarian are thorough going opportunists. All the sects, cults and opportunists have broken with some aspect or other of revolutionary marxism, of `othrodox Trotskyism’.

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  503. alf: what do you think of ID’s assertion following the PR lead that the Fourth International contained degenerate DNA from the very beginning?

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  504. David,
    That was the way I read Alf’s post too. It is one thing to fight to build a mass movement but another to advocate that this should confine all its politics to anti Coalition cuts with raising any questions of where a mass movement must lead if it was to be successful. In other words all this stuff about Broad Fronts and non-sectarian united fronts is designed to apologise for the politics of bourgeois parties like the Greens and disaffected Liberals. We should all welcome their support, but it is quite another thing to capitulated to their politics. Remember Respect was a “United Front of a Special Type” according to the SWP and John Rees in particular. It obliged leftist SWP members to hide their own politics to appease communalist Muslim small businessmen, one of whom joined the Tories. Most SWPers were heartily sick of this imposition by the time of the split and this has lead to a far healthier internal culture in the SWP, for instance the ranks were able to mount an internal revolt to secure the organisation’s support for Jerry Hicks.
    And what on earth is the politics of Socialist Resistance in this regard? On Wikipedia it tells us that its Ideology is: “Trotskyism, Eco-socialism, Socialist feminism” as if all three were on a par as aspects of their outlook and, hilariously their ‘Official colours’ are ‘Red, Green, Purple’. What is the purple about? And is this the new tricolour for the Workers Republic?

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  505. “At last we have squeezed out of ID the admission that we have been talking not about mistakes but degeneration. That he and/or his co-thinkers believe NEP, the Krondstadt suppression and the temporary ban on organised faction were signs of degeneration and not sincere efforts to defend the revolution against degeneration whilst waiting for its isolation to be relieved is not new.”

    All you can do with this ‘logic’ is to just shrug at the rigid mindset that gives rise to it. These Healyite types talk about ‘dialectics’ but only think in very rigid, syllogistic terms. If something is done in good faith, it can have nothing to do with degeneration. Conversely, nothing remotely connected with degeneration can ever be done in good faith. This is nothing to do with Marxism, but it does have much in common with the counter-reformation and the Society of Jesus.

    Degeneration, by the way, can be given a helping hand by mistakes. It can also be at least partially counteracted by actions that are consciously directed at so countering it. If that were not true, then what would have been the point of the struggle of the Left Opposition? A critique that says that such conscious political struggle was necessary earlier, and that the one that did happen was tardy and missed some crucial aspects of the degeneration is completely within the framework of historical materialism. David Ellis cannot demonstrate otherwise, which is why all he can do is fulminate and cry ‘heresy’.

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  506. “It obliged leftist SWP members to hide their own politics to appease communalist Muslim small businessmen, one of whom joined the Tories. Most SWPers were heartily sick of this imposition by the time of the split and this has lead to a far healthier internal culture in the SWP, for instance the ranks were able to mount an internal revolt to secure the organisation’s support for Jerry Hicks.”

    The same Gerry Hicks who of course sided with Respect and the ‘communalist Muslims’ against the SWP. And rightly so!

    Why is that that Gerry Downing on this sounds like Sean Matgamna?

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  507. “…Surely the debris of the Trotskyist movement today as well as its history of splits, manoeuvres and sharp practices, should prompt us to at least ask the question: is there a connection between the state it is in today and the lessons it has drawn regarding the timing and character of the counter-revolution in Russia? …” I would refer serious readers back to the central thesis of Mark H’s original outline by counter-posing – why accept that the brickwork built upon the foundational critique of Trotsky, was anything other than a non-mortared stack of bricks that was doomed to create debris owing to its ‘illusionary height’ and the shaky terrain on which this height was attained. In contrast, would we as Marxists, be proud of a monumental edifice built around the organisational abilities of German social democracy to produce the debris of 1914. Similarly, are we to view the Labour Party and all its numerical strength and organisation as anything other than debris both alongside and episodically with fellow ‘reformists’. The once daunting and physically intimidating power of Stalinist organisation could embrace a mausoleum of Lenin alongside a Berlin Wall – but the knowledge and practices of Lenin remain, the wall is simply debris. Dictatorship always has forms conforming to the strength or weaknesses established on the social basis of its motivating power. Read this and consider well how the dictatorial power of Lenin overcame the ‘crumbly’ Bolshevik formation he himself helped build and what was the ‘ground’ of his dictatorship. http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/hrr/ch42.htm

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  508. As soon as the SWP exited Respect it became a formation worth supporting. It actually moved to the left and became a genuinely democratic forum for discussing the way forward, tactics, strategy etc in which radical socialist could operate provided it was in an exemplary, non-sectarian fashion. I don’t know whether the recent split with Rees and co. has freed things up in the SWP or not but I suspect the division of labour between the `trade unionists’ or workers and the intellectuals, between the economic and the political, is set in stone.

    ID: Mistakes would not be mistakes without an external objective material reality against which to measure them (in this case economic backwardness, post civil war retreat of the workers, and isolation of the revolution). No doubt many mistakes were made in good faith on the basis of limited information or understanding. But there were no mistakes in principle and the banning of organised factions at a time when secret bureaucratic and petty bourgeois factions were organising like crazy to turn the party away from international revolution was not a mistake at all but a necessary act to buy time for the isolated revolution. For you however this decision demonstrates the necessary degeneration of Leninism and the built in degenerateness of Trotskyism. That the stalinists tore the decision out of context (as you are now doing) to justify their later crimes is neither here nor there. They often quoted Marx out of context to prove the justice of their actions.

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  509. Serious leftists are backing Jerry Hicks because it is a means of mobilising the ranks against the bureaucratic apperatus which controls the unoiopn oin the interests of their own careers and in defence of capitalism. The united front here does not mean support fore his politiocs in general.
    And this is not a bit like Matgamna who is supporting the bureaucrat’s man McCluskey.

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  510. So you are supporting a supporter of ‘communalism’ (your words) as a means of mobilising the ranks of a union against the bureaucracy? That just shows you are all over the place. Surely it he were the representative of ‘communalism’ then a left TU bureaucrat would be preferable?

    Some people were involved in Respect right from the start from honest motives, not from some neo-Healyite vendetta against the SWP like David Ellis. Thankfully, few take any notice of him.

    Anyway, ‘serious leftsists’ do not include this particular shower.

    “But there were no mistakes in principle and the banning of organised factions at a time when secret bureaucratic and petty bourgeois factions were organising like crazy to turn the party away from international revolution was not a mistake at all but a necessary act to buy time for the isolated revolution.”

    Anyone who has any experience of the activities of ‘bureaucratic factions’ and the like knows that they thrive in conditions when open factional groupings are banned. This did not ‘buy time’ for the revolution from the influence of the bureaucracy, but gagged the working class and its champions while allowing the bureaucracy to run riot.

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  511. “Anyone who has any experience of the activities of ‘bureaucratic factions’ and the like knows that they thrive in conditions when open factional groupings are banned. This did not ‘buy time’ for the revolution from the influence of the bureaucracy, but gagged the working class and its champions while allowing the bureaucracy to run riot.” ID please give us examples of your personal experience of ‘bureaucratic factions’ – where, when, who for and against? Don’t borrow second-hand generalisations to try to appear the ‘lance of truth and justice’. So in the Russia of 1921 the working class’ champions were whom exactly? First a trickle them a stream (run riot) says you – first a tickle then a scream says democracy. Whose democracy under what conditions.

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  512. I’m no healyite ID. I dislike all the sects, cults and bureaucratic centrist formations equally from the SWP, the SP, the WRP and all their fore runner organisations right back to when the degenerates moved in on Fourth International after WWII.

    I cannot recall when you have not been on the verge of abandoning the Respect project for some ultra left lunacy or other.

    `This did not ‘buy time’ for the revolution from the influence of the bureaucracy, but gagged the working class and its champions while allowing the bureaucracy to run riot.’

    I do believe that Lenin and Trotsky were at the head of the working class that remained political and were its champions. Who did you have in mind? The factions were not factions advocating Marxism or organising around some dispute on how to further international revolution and defend October but were hostile incomers determined to push out the marxists.

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  513. Oh god. Want to know an organisation where open factional groupings are banned, and yet where bureaucracy runs riot? Try the SWP. Then the SLP under Scargill. The Labour Party, where factions the leadership does not like are regularly defined as ‘parties within a party’ and proscribed. Any Stalinist organisation you care to name – ditto.

    And the working class’s champions that were banned were the Workers Opposition and the Democratic Centralists. Both of whom later supplied cadres to the Left Opposition incidentally.

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  514. Healy I believe was amongst the first to drop Trotskyist `othodoxy’ with his unconditional support for Tito and his dropping of the theory of permanent revolution for relations with all sorts of unsavoury semi-colonial petty bourgs. Of course, as PR are proving now you have to drop a hell of a lot more of that `orthodoxy’ today if you want to carve out a sectarian little niche for your self.

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  515. ID: We are talking about the defence of a revolution and a state. Normally the marxists if they found themselves under siege in an organisation and unable to function then they would split but they were duty bound to defend the revolution and the state it established to the bitter end against counter revolution and/or degeneration which they did. It did not buy them much time as the German revolution failed ensuring the victory of the degenerates and Stalinists. We should really be comparing like with like and as for the DCs and the WO all factions were banned and like you say it didn’t stop many of them subsequently joining the Left Opposition but whilst it was good enough for them it clearly is not good enough for you.

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  516. “I cannot recall when you have not been on the verge of abandoning the Respect project for some ultra left lunacy or other.”

    If you think that TUSC is ‘ultra-left lunacy’ then you are a Healyite in theory, but a Kinnockite in practice. The project of uniting the left in a challenge to New Labour is the reason I supported ‘Respect – the Unity Coalition’ and I still support this idea.

    Galloway broke from that idea when at the 2009 Respect conference he said that there ‘can be no electoral blocs with Communists and Trotskyists, because they are an electoral liability’.

    This repudiates the formation of Respect, which was an electoral bloc between Galloway and the SWP, among others.

    Bob Crow, that well-known ultra-left. Dave Nellist, that well known ultra-left. Har-bloody-har. You are simply a one-person neo-Healyite sect, but with Kinnock-like instincts in practice.

    You claim to defend Trotsky. But you support the statement that electoral blocs with ‘Communists and Trotskyists’ are ‘ultra-left’.

    In reality, that was the moment when Respect jumped the shark and repudiated its own progressive original thrust. And you jumped with it.

    Truth is no-one ever heard of you before the Respect split.

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  517. Bans and proscriptions on working class trends are just as inimical to workers power in conditions of revolution as they are in more ‘normal’ conditions. The net result is the same – the bureuacracy thrives, the workers are put at a massive disadvantage. All the special pleading in the world can’t get around that simple fact.

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  518. No I did not accuse Jerry Hicks odf ‘communalism’, I am aware that there were many complex reasons to chose one side or the other in that split. And it may indeed have helped the membership of both sides escape from bureaucratic impopsition, which disease is rampart in the Trade unions now. Hence the necessity to critically support Hicks, despite political differences

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  519. `All the special pleading in the world can’t get around that simple fact.’

    I’m afraid it can. You deal in abstractions and not the concrete reality faced by the international socialists at the head of the CP at the time. The organised factions being formed were designed to gain the leadership of the CP for the purposes of either consolidating the rule of the bureaucracy or the overthrow of the state. The ban on organised factions was supported by all who had the fate of the revolution at the forefront of their minds including those of WO and DC.

    But of course we cannot now agree on this as you are using to prove that post-October Trotskyism was born degenerate. Can you provide examples of how this degeneracy was reflected in theory such as was the case with the Stalinists and their theories of peaceful co-existence and socialism in one country?

    As for Respect, with the departure of the SWP it became not a united front of a special kind but a proper united front where it was possible to put forward and argue for your own program and perspectives at the same time as upholding the practical agreement to get radical anti-imperialist, anti-war MPs elected juxtaposing the radical base to the grip and politics of the New Labour bureaucrats. Galloway was right that the sects were an electoral liability and, incapable of exemplary work, disruptive. I didn’t see mass expulsions of `Trots’ and `Communists’ just mass walkouts. But it wasn’t just a case of supporting TUSC, as you say for you Respect was already a dead duck long before the elections.

    By the way Hicks should definitely be supported.

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  520. ‘working class trends’ – the trend to lumpenise, to scabbing, to EDL, to fascist shock troops and hit-squads. There are organisations and ideas in sections of the working class that most certainly require quelling, no less suppressing to eliminate reactionary incitement to barbarism, even when they themselves are unable to clearly identify the dangers en mass. Again ID you are not starting with what was and is implicit in the dangers either then nor now. Abstract ideals of party democracy and declaration of love for workers is a dangerous first principle.

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  521. “The organised factions being formed were designed to gain the leadership of the CP for the purposes of either consolidating the rule of the bureaucracy or the overthrow of the state.”

    So which bureaucratic trends were proscribed by the ban on factions? You can’t point to any! Only the Workers Opposition and DC’s were caught by this ban. As I said, the bureaucracy ran riot – because in conditions of bans and proscriptions reactionary formations such as emerging bureaucracies inevitably do run riot.

    And there is the allegation that the Workers Opposition and the DC’s were for the ‘overthrow of the state’. Actually, they were in favour of restoring soviet democracy. If that means ‘overthrow of the state’ then you are already only a hairs-breath from Stalinism in your understanding.

    This is underlined by Ray Rising’s attempting to equate these groupings with fascists. Well, if this is true, then as I pointed out earlier, and can be ascertained by looking at the political histories of the signatories of the 1923 ‘Platform of the Forty-Six – the first public statement of the Left Opposition – several founding LO leaders were also in these earlier oppositions. So if the earlier oppositions are to be smeared as akin to fascism, then likewise the Left Opposition must also be tainted with fascism.

    The reason for this overlaps is quite obvious – the earlier oppositions were of a similar type to the later and better known one, and those with such similar views joined the later and better supported one to fight for more or less the same aims – centrally the restoration of Soviet democracy. Presumably Ray Rising thinks these ‘fascists’ should have been kept out, or perhaps shot. Every argument he uses in favour of suppressing the earlier oppositions could have come straight from the mouth of Stalin.

    An as for David Ellis’s claim that in opposing Respect allying itself with Bob Crow, Dave Nellist etc he was opposing ‘sects’, actually no, he was supporting a right-wing, sectarian, entrist attack on the Respect project – by Eurocommunists – the likes of Andy Newman and Mark Perryman- and Socialist Action – who are political agents of New Labour and sought simply to cripple any possibility of a unified left challenge to Labour in the General Election. And David Ellis was an entrist himself – as I said, no one had ever heard of him prior to the Respect split.

    Far from being any kind of alternative to sectarianism, this kind of poisonous, disloyal, dishonest sectarianism is where the Trotskyist movement approaches Stalinism most closely.

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  522. I thought Socialist Action had joined Respect?

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  523. ID, I never said and would not say that the Workers Opposition or Democratic Socialists were fascist in their conception. A reader who is following this would know that the trends you declare as being inviolable, could develop into something else, I know not what. Historically, I nor you, know today just precisely what their content was. But what I’m sure of is this. Knowing the history of Lenin throughout his own life until 1924 and subsequently Trotsky’s life until 1940, neither of them placed their own interests (either tactical or strategic) above, what they considered policies for the advancement of the International social revolution. The accomplished fact of Stalinism today, is not a retrospective confirmation of the genealogy of perceived errors in their own time. The truth is the standards they set then is a mighty credit to the Marxist method of not only taking revolution on the rise but fighting for the same method in its decline. We should be so obdurate, so perceptive – so marxist.

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  524. Jim P

    “I thought Socialist Action had joined Respect?”

    Indeed. But do they support the Respect project as originally conceived? Not on your life! That is the point.

    Cuckoo in the nest is the phrase that springs to mind.

    Ray Rising

    “A reader who is following this would know that the trends you declare as being inviolable, could develop into something else,”

    There is an old saying that sums this up.

    “If my auntie had bollocks, she’d be my uncle”

    There was nothing remotely like ‘fascism’ about the pro-Soviet oppositions in 1921. The innuendo that there was, which Ray is now back-tracking from, is shameful. And Ray’s wriggling to deny that he ever implied this is pretty discreditable. Its obvious what you were implying.

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  525. And its Democratic Centralists, not Democratic Socialists.

    Something of a difference in conception, do you not agree?

    If this is a mistake, it is an elementary one betraying the fact that Ray is pontificating about something he knows nothing about.

    On the other hand, if it is an innuendo that the DCs were agents of the Second International and thereby of counterrevolution, then it is also pretty inept.

    There is something of a difference of conception between ‘Democratic Centralists’ and ‘Democratic Socialists’, is there not?

    They were defending party democracy as it existed in the period before the revolution (and prior to the beginnings of degeneration), not supporting bourgeois democracy.

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  526. I did read the Workers Opposition stuff years ago. it is true that it contains many items against bureaucratic degeneration which the Left Opposition later uses, not surprisingly as many of them joined the Left Opposition. What it lacks completely is any internationalist perspective, which I is also true of the Democratic Centralists, who were ultra-leftists; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timofei_Sapronov. That is whilst opposing bureaucratic degeneration, visible in 1921, they had no alternative and the DCers actually abandoned the defence of the Soviet Union. At that level of the productive forces the social relations of production were of necessity bourgeois, labour discipline could not be bases on the free association of producers because the super-abundance of wealth was receding into the far distant future because of the defeats of the world revolution. Trotsky does explain this in detail in the Revolution Betrayed. Those Oppositionists did not understand that; poverty determined those social relations and there was no way out except the world revolution. DC leader Sapranov carried Lenin’s coffin, not an honour bestowed on a suppressed oppositionist.

    Last point on the Respect and TUSC; where you work as revolutionary socialists is determined by what you judge are the best arena for you based on what you have built up in the way of connections and the potential for future development. But you must not capitulate to the ideological backwardness of that milieu, work with the prospect of pulling together the elements of the revolutionary party. Now I am sure neither ID nor David will say that Respect or the TUSC are anything other than projects to build radical left reformist parties, with many reactionary elements in their policies, am I right?

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  527. I made a typographical mistake with regard to Democratic Socialists in place of DC’s – readily admitted. But everyone would know that who’s following this. I’ll leave others to judge whether that mistake collapses a position in and of itself. However, I repeat I did not say the WO and DC were fascist, but simply that, by your categorical definition that these were an ‘absolutely progressive workers formation’ as against the ‘reaction’ of Lenin’s position, which he had declared ‘temporary measures’ under the then prevailing conditions. ID attempts to make an absolute out of a relative through working backwards from today’s standpoint. This method provides only fuel to those wishing to cleanse their souls from today’s legacy in this mission to nowhere.

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  528. So there were a spectrum of views on the nature of the emerging bureaucratised USSR among the early oppositionists? That is hardly suprising. There were a similar spectrum of views among the ‘Trotskyists’ interned at concentration camps such as Vorkuta much later. All of them were left oppositionists, not all would identify politically with Trotsky on every question. Even Rakovsky embraced some form of state capitalist views in the 1930s.

    The point is that all these trends were a product of the denial of soviet democracy. You don’t have to agree with everything they said to agree that the demand for the revival of soviet democracy was progressive – including when it was first raised by the Workers Opposition and DCs. The resemblance between the heterogeneity of the early oppositions and the later ones only goes to show that … the same objective problems existed earlier than rigid ‘orthdoxy’ allows.

    As to Respect/TUSC etc being ‘radical reformist parties’, well not necessarily. They are/were attempts to rebuild a political working class movement and to intervene in elections with some basic class positions. Such movements are not bound to stay within the framework of reformism, though at the moment, most of those who support this tactic are left reformist, so it is likely that some form of left-reformism will be initially dominant.

    If you wish to abstain from this, then fine. I consider this both tactically and strategically useless. In my experience, those who do end up either advocating strategically-tinged tactics to the right of the best elements of such projects (i.e. supporting neo-liberal Labour against them) or simply engaging in worthless abstention.

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  529. ID: you are simply avoiding the issues now. Lenin appealed to factions like DC and WO to dismantle their ultra left organised factions and come together in a show of unity in defence of the revolution against the myriad secret factions that were being prepared by the bureaucrats and restorationists. I believe the serious people agreed and understood the nature of the situation which is why subsequently they had no problem joining with Trotsky in the Left Opposition. Those who didn’t may well have ended up with Stalin or worse.

    Agree with your last paragraph Gerry.

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  530. “Lenin appealed to factions like DC and WO to dismantle their ultra left organised factions and come together in a show of unity in defence of the revolution against the myriad secret factions that were being prepared by the bureaucrats and restorationists.”

    They were defending the revolution anyway. There was nothing ultra-left about calling for the revival of Soviet democracy. And once again I ask … which bureaucratic faction(s) were affected by the ban on factions? You can’t point to any, for there were none! The bureaucracy had no need for formal platforms – it simply organised behind the scenes in bodies like Rabkrin, while at the same time enforcing measures like the ban on factions to suppress opposition.

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  531. `If you wish to abstain from this, then fine. I consider this both tactically and strategically useless. In my experience, those who do end up either advocating strategically-tinged tactics to the right of the best elements of such projects (i.e. supporting neo-liberal Labour against them) or simply engaging in worthless abstention.’

    But you said that Respect had jumped the shark in 2009.

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  532. “But you said that Respect had jumped the shark in 2009.”

    Yes, when it renounced the project of left unity that both Respect mark I and mark II (Renewal) had stood for.

    Respect was founded at the end of 2003 (formally in Jan 2004), and re-founded in 2007. You’d know these things if you had been involved.

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  533. `Respect was founded at the end of 2003 (formally in Jan 2004), and re-founded in 2007. You’d know these things if you had been involved.’

    I do know these things but I’m wondering why you felt you were not both tactically and strategically useless by 2009.

    `There was nothing ultra-left about calling for the revival of Soviet democracy.’

    Given the post-Civil War retreat from politics by the mass of workers then such a call was ultra-left. The revival of soviet democracy was dependent on the international revolution and no amount of `calls’ for it would re-energise the masses at that time. The urgent and necessary task was to demand loyalty and unity from `revolutionists’ in the face of potential degeneration or counter revolution in defence of the revolution in the hope that its isolation would soon be broken.

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  534. But you are not interested in context your one and only aim now is to prove that Trotskyism = Stalinism.

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  535. ID: given that it does not look that any agreement on the rightness or wrongness on the temporary ban on organised factions can be reached here could we now go on to discuss the implications. I have asked several times how, apart from a perceived subjective tendency to authoritarianism on your part, the degeneration inherent in Trotskyism given its roots in Leninism (to paraphrase your arguement) are reflected in theory. For instance in Stalinism the degeneration in practise finds its counterpoint in theory in the rationalisms for `Peaceful Co-existnence with imperialism’ and `Socialism in One Country’. In the SWP we can see the results of their break with `orthodoxy’ in the empiricist `theories’ of state capitalism and the permanent arms economy for instance. The AWL posit a progressive role for imperialism in contradiction to everything Lenin ever wrote which conveniently allows them to defend British imperialism in ireland and Iraq and the US backed zionist client colonial state. What would you say are the equivalent theoretical heresys contained within Leninism and/or Trotskyism that demonstrate decisively for you that these thinkers and their followers had subverted or revised the marxist method? Or perhaps Marxism is the problem or you see Marxism as only one voice among many?

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  536. “I do know these things but I’m wondering why you felt you were not both tactically and strategically useless by 2009.”

    A crass and foolish point, since I was in favour of support to both TUSC and Respect against New Labour, despite Galloway’s political default. You, presumably, were in favour of supporting New Labour against TUSC. Which is a reactionary position.

    Its actually a good thing that New Labour lost the election, even from the standpoint of the interests of the left in the Labour Party.

    “The revival of soviet democracy was dependent on the international revolution ”

    By that logic, then the Left Opposition was also ultra-left, since it also called for the restoration of Soviet democracy as a means to promote international revolution. It did not say that Soviet Democracy had to wait for the international revolution to take place first.

    You don’t know what you are saying, do you?

    Anyway, you say that the call for Soviet democracy was ultra-left. That doesn’t mean that the Trotskyist movement was Stalinist – as I have never seen such a crass formulation coming from anyone signficant from that tradition. But it does mean that you are pretty close to being a Stalinist in reality.

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  537. I’m afraid the point is moot. I don’t see you as a Marxist at all but something approximating to a Jesuit. The theory of the Permanent Arms Economy has some merit, and you don’t have to be a state-cap to accept that relatively labour-intensive mass arms production likely played a role in the post-WWII ‘long boom’. It obviously played a major role, just as an armaments boom obviously was responsible for economic revival in Nazi Germany after the Great Depression.

    You can paraphrase my argument as much as you like, your paraphrases are simply dishonest, as befits your Healy-like politics.

    I don’t consider there to be one unifying ‘heresy’ of the Trotskyist movement, but rather a tendency to form bureaucratic sects around some guru or other where all members are under discipline to defend the ideas of that guru, justified by an appeal to the caricature of democratic centralism that the Fourth International shared with the early Comintern – public ideological unity. All that is a post-revolutionary invention, nothing to do with Marxism or revolutionary politics. And the party that led the Russian Revolution did not work like that.

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  538. `I don’t consider there to be one unifying ‘heresy’ of the Trotskyist movement’

    So you cannot point to anything theoretical in Trotsky that demonstrates its degenerate nature but you do have a liking for state cap and permenanet arms economy theory? Trotskyism simply tends to attract those with a bureaucratic mindset and a hankering for a guru. Can you point me to where in Trotskyism there is a demand for public ideological unity as a matter of principle and not just something about how anti-Marxist factions should be politically opposed and politically driven out.

    `Its actually a good thing that New Labour lost the election, even from the standpoint of the interests of the left in the Labour Party.’

    Oh dear. Ultra left third periodism rears its ugly head again.

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  539. “Can you point me to where in Trotskyism there is a demand for public ideological unity as a matter of principle and not just something about how anti-Marxist factions should be politically opposed and politically driven out.”

    Try Trotsky’s ‘In Defense of Marxism’ and its companion piece, Cannon’s ‘The Struggle for a Proletarian Party’.

    David Ellis, like his mentor Healy, is illiterate as well as dishonest, since I stated that one does not have to agree with State Capitalism to agree that there arms production may have played a major role in the post-war boom.

    Ellis can’t argue with that on the terrain of Marxist economics, because he evidently knows nothing about Marxist economics (or any other type). He prefers Healy’s crisis mongering – proclaiming the ‘final crisis of capitalism’ is all he knows how to do.

    Yes, I’m glad that New Labour lost the election. Without that election defeat, there would have been no Diane Abbott campaign for the leadership, no left-talking bulge and rhetorical attacks on New Labour from the younger Miliband. None of these very minimal leftward moves within the Labour Party would have ever had the chance to happen.

    Evidently you are all in favour of re-electing war criminals and neocon scum like Blair and Brown, and thus consolidating their hold over the Labour Party. Objectively thata makes you an political agent of the neocons, Blairites and other riff-raff.

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  540. `Evidently you are all in favour of re-electing war criminals and neocon scum like Blair and Brown, and thus consolidating their hold over the Labour Party. Objectively thata makes you an political agent of the neocons, Blairites and other riff-raff.’

    Spart Loses Plot Shock

    `Try Trotsky’s ‘In Defense of Marxism’ and its companion piece, Cannon’s ‘The Struggle for a Proletarian Party’.’

    Bit more specific please. How about a quote we can get our teeth into?

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  541. Ah yes, I’m a Spart. That explains why I’m supporting the Kronstadt rebels and attacking these two books, which the Sparts regard as holy writ.

    If you want to read Trotsky and Cannon’s views on public dissent in a ‘revolutionary party’, go and read them yourself.

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  542. `If you want to read Trotsky and Cannon’s views on public dissent in a ‘revolutionary party’, go and read them yourself.’

    So nothing then. And don’t bring Canon into this all of a sudden because without Trotsky’s influence he proved politically unable to prevent the degeneration of the Fourth into cults, sects and bureaucratic sects at the hands of shysters and became symptomatic of that degeneration. Perhaps nobody could have prevented such a thing under the circumstances but the task was for Marxists in that case to defend and develop the marxist method as best they could.

    To confess I’ve never read Canon’s book but In Defence of Marxism is a must read for any marxist I’d have thought.

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  543. Trotsky praised it very highly in IDOM, and said that if the whole discussion had produced only this document, it would have been worth it (or words to that effect).

    The book is a manual of the sect-party that forbids public ideological disagreement. No wonder the Sparts like it. Its foolish to demonise Cannon and laud Trotsky – though it may be true that Trotsky had far more analytical ability and may have been able to make more sense of the post WWII world had he lived to see it, it is also true that Trotsky was Cannon’s mentor on so many things. Including on the nature of the ‘revolutionary party’.

    The leaders of the post-war Trotskyist movement were not generally shysters. That is as foolish as treating Lenin and Trotsky as infallible, akin to gods, incapable of serious error. Actually, they were all prisoners of the same method, that came from the Comintern, and once events became sufficiently complex and problematic, as they did after the war, and permitting of several different interpretations and analyses, the rigid model of party organisation beqeathed to them was incapable of coping with the divisions these different analyses gave rise to.

    Hence the multiple splits into bitterly competing sects. If the dominant ethos had been ‘freedom of criticism, unity in action’, there would have been no need for many of these splits, and the questions in dispute might have been resolved and dealt with much better in a way that was actually enriching. As it was, Cannons ‘TSFAPP” was a manual for those splits, published with Trotsky’s fulsome endorsement.

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  544. What a pompous political and theoretical fraud ID is. The whole of his previous post abbreviated a colossal summary of Trotskyism with an all dismissive rejection of Trotsky’s defence of Marxist theory as well as Cannon’s fight to bring the political/organisational lessons out to the membership and affiliates of SWP/USA. The struggle with Burham, Abern and Shactman was then, and remains today a critical phase in the history of Trotskyism. This all embracing, all-knowing posturing of ID explains exactly why he proffers himself as the sage of sages in 1. the origins of the degeneracy of the Russian revolution began through Lenin and Trotsky’s gross mistake in 1921, 2. Cannon with the approval Trotsky created a sect-like SWP through the fight with B.A.S. which led to 3. The genealogical extension of that method in the post-World War 2 period right through to today. Such sweeping knowledge with a potted analysis has never before been presented in such a dialectically logical manner. Burnham and Shactman lives methinks (albeit a minnow version).

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  545. Clearly defending marxism is not a priority for you.

    Do you agree that the Fourth International was established as a Marxist international and that it would be right to defend its status as a Marxist organisation? That doesn’t mean banning factions and discussion but it does mean defeating any anti-Marxist trends that emerge.

    The Fourth International fell into the hands of degenerates (given the objective circumstances it was probably inevitable) but what Marx and Engels did when the First International fell into the hands of the sects and anarchists of their day was they abandoned it and sought theoretical clarification on any number of issues. The Second had a much healthier start as Marxism was becoming dominant in the labour movement but it too degenerated under the objective pressures of the newly emerged imperialist capitalism. Lenin established the Third on marxist principles. It fell to Stalinism. Trotsky established the Fourth which didn’t survive WWII and is yet to be built. So if by authoritarian and degenerate you mean an insistence on the defence of the Marxist method or at least the upholding of its program then of course I cannot help you.

    There was nothing wrong with the party model. Which clauses of the Fourth International’s constitution would you remove or criticise? The split into bitterly competing sects is always accompanied by yet another break from `orthodox’ trotskyism as the sect and cult builders find their own little heresy on which to build their reputation from state capitalism to imperialism can play a progressive role to Thermidor or even counter revolution can be traced back to 1921 and all those who were around then are complicit in it.

    But whilst the Marxist must defend their method to the bitter end that does not require the sectists attitude to the workers movement as a whole. It does not set itself against this movement but through exemplary work wins the masses over to its program and perspectives and will do so because being neither sectarian nor opportunist but reasoned, scientific arguement it along has a chance of getting things right.

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  546. Ray: I have to agree with you. The pomposity of ID is startling and the methods fraudulent indeed. He takes a result and argues backwards, taking care to entertain the gullible, much like the early inventors of God.

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  547. Time to stop ID. These lot have long since given up any relationship with thought.
    If you’re interested in doing a proper article on this why not contact me on contact@permanentrevolution.net ?
    It will honestly be a better use of your time.

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  548. I think Bill is probably right, judging by the embarassing poverty of the past couple of responses. Its been a fruitful discussion though in some ways, despite the often miserable character of the opposition. Will be in touch, though I do have considerable differences with PR on a number of questions (not news!).

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  549. The fruit of this marathon is now clear: ID drifts right to the PR anti-Leninism. The principled Trotskyists have to fight in the class struggle against this anti-working class perspective. So was Jimmy Reid right then to betray the UCS workers lest he be called a Leninist by the media or the Cortonwood miners wrong to reject ‘democracy’?

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  550. Sounds a bit like when Gerry Healy blamed his problems in the WRP on the same forces that imprisoned Nelson Mandela.

    David Ellis and co’s ravings have a similar relationship to those workers struggles. I.e. none at all.

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  551. ID give it up chum these guys have nothing to say. We’ve taken lumps out of each other in the past but there was always a core of substance to the argument on both sides. But this shower…

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  552. tamworthalternative Avatar
    tamworthalternative

    Ah yes, I still remember fondly the neprimerimye / ID Long Big Fight(s) on UK Left Network- put this current exchange into the shade…

    Rob

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  553. And so defeated the anti-Marxists and idealist conspiracy theorists tramp off to lick their wounds and have a rethink as it is now clear that their attack has not been nearly sophisticated enough. In fact it was positively suicidal. We await the second wave with relish and with fully charged weapons.

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  554. Sounds like a game of space invaders.

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  555. Aye poor David he is a bit of a space cadet. 😉

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  556. David – that wouldn’t be caramelised red onion relish would it?

    Yummy.

    Liam – please change Hoskinsson to Hoskisson as requested earlier in this debate in my one post – which got moderated!!!!!

    Cheers

    mark H

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  557. That took a bit longer than it should have Mark. Sorry.

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  558. No probs mate – couldn’t work out why the earlier post was blocked. It was nice to you and the USFI!!!!!!

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  559. Mark Hoskisson PR:-

    “On the Trotskyist left the received wisdom is that Stalin began his counter-revolution in 1923-24 and that he completed it in 1928.”

    It’s not wisdom received from Trotsky though. is it?
    More like the ultra-left twist you learned from Tony Cliff when you were in the I.S.

    Why would Trotsky have spent 1928-33 building the International Left Opposition *within* the Third International if it was already a counter-revolutionary organisation?

    Start with a false premise and you’ll arrive at wrong conclusions.
    Ultra-leftism and factionalism have been the biggest source of error within Trotskyist organisations, not strict adherence to democratic centralism.

    MH “What Lenin created in 1921 was party rule.”

    Under the circumstances, without Party rule, there was no possibility of socialism at all. TINA.

    But this doesn’t mean that Russian in 1921 is a schema applicable in all other historical circumstances.

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  560. `More like the ultra-left twist you learned from Tony Cliff when you were in the I.S.’

    That explains a lot. The penchant for revisionism and the capitulation to economism plus the phenomenal arrogance.

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  561. “It’s not wisdom received from Trotsky though. is it?”

    Yes it is.

    “Thus the present day domination of Stalin in no way resembles Soviet rule during the initial years of the revolution. The substitution of one regime for the
    other occurred not at a single stroke but through a series of measures, by means of a number of civil wars waged by the bureaucracy against the proletarian vanguard. … The smashing of the left opposition implied in the most direct and immediate sense
    the transfer of power from the hands of the revolutionary vanguard into the hands of the more conservative elements among the bureaucracy and the upper crust of the working class. The year 1924 – that was the beginning of Soviet Thermidor.”

    Trotsky, The Workers State, Thermidor and Bonapartism, Writings 1934/35, Pathfinder, 1971, p172 and p174.

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  562. Oh dear here we go again. Prianikoff made the essential highlighted point that: Mark H put a date 1928, that is (nineteen-twenty-eight), on ‘his’ interpretation of the completion of the Stalinist counter-revolution as the perceived (supposed universally agreed upon Trotskyist chronology). That the left opposition continued to fight within the 3rd International until the qualitative defeat of its perspective and programme in 1933, is what Prianikoff asserted as Trotsky real history. Not Trotsky’s definition of the actual start of the Stalinist Thermidor (1924). I thought that was clear enough.

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  563. I think it’s time now for the principal floggers to leave this horse alone for a while. I’ve had feedback that some people who were tempted to offer opinions on the discussion were daunted by both the quantity of the contributions and the tenor of a few of them.

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  564. Well I’ve only made one single comment in this thread as I had better things to do in August.
    It seems to me that examining a process accurately requires knowing the difference between when it started (no disagreements with 1924) and when it ended (Trotsky didn’t declare the FI until after the Nazis seized power in 1933)
    1933 = 5 years after 1928.
    Even then, there were individual national sections of the 3rd International that were capable of being won to revolutionary positions as a whole.
    Now I’ll leave this alone.

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  565. `…I had better things to do in August.’

    Better things to do than defend the marxist approach against the left liquidationists? Must have been one hell of an August?

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  566. Well the sun was out. You’d know if you ever left your bedroom.

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  567. You don’t do irony bill do you? You are a literalist with an almost autistic bent.

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  568. The left liquidators are challenged by the liquidated left to join them:

    The red jacobins : no substitute for workers’ freedom

    They have had the Trotskyist side of the argument and now they have the swamp’s version. We know which way the leading lights are necessarily going if they want to iron out the glaring contradictions in their thesis under the withering ridicule they will get at the hands of the swampies if they don’t but which way will the bulk of PR jump?

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  569. The above post from David Ellis just underlines why many working class militants asssociate Trotskyism with religious cults like the Moonies.

    Furthermore its a bit rich for those who advocate votes to the likes of Blair and Brown against leff-wing union leaders like Bob Crow to accuse anyone of liquidating anything.

    David Ellis was the ally, from the safety of his bedroom of course, of Eurocommunists like Mark Perryman and Andy Newman who were utterly opposed to a generalised left-challenge to New Labour in the General Election and actively sought to cripple Respect and make it into a mere pressure group on Gordon Brown to move to the ‘left’.

    He rants in a very one-sided and ignorant way about Gramsci’s crimes, but in fact he is an arch-Gramscian epigone in practice, as evidenced by his support for the Euros against those in Respect who sought to unite the working class left.

    Meanwhile he incredibly rants that anyone who can’t stomach voting for a government that implemented ID cards, enforced Thatcher’s anti-union laws for thirteen years in power, and carried out numerous other crimes (too many to mention here), is a ‘third periodist’.

    This is actually pro-/ New Labour sectarian lunacy, and puts Ellis to the right of Ed Milliband. The latter has noted that Labour lost 5 million voters during its 13 years in office, and the vast majority of them were its ‘core’ vote who did not go to the Tories but either voted Lib Dem or did not vote at all. Ed Milliband has started attacking New Labour and even using phraseology about a ‘crisis of representation’ for Labour’s working class ‘core vote’ as part of a strategy to win them back.

    The logic of Ellis’s rantings that anyone who doesn’t support New Labour is a ‘third periodist’ is to similarly abuse the millions who Ed Milliband wants to win back as ‘third periodists’ for not being able to stomach voting for New Labour. I wonder if he went around canvassing for New Labour with this attitude during the election? I doubt it, because he is just an armchair revolutionary of the worst kind. But if he did, he may now be able to give us a run down on the quality (or lack of it) of hospital food.

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  570. In power the likes of Ed Milliband would now be making swingeing cuts and the workers would be learning valuable lessons about reformism when the chips are down. In opposition he is pretending to be a little bit left to split the vote so that his brother can win. If anybody is creating or has illusions in New Labour it’s you.

    You are spinning like a top. You should make up your mind if you are a left liquidationist or a right wing Labour liquidationist. Are you working for the Ed Milliband campaign?

    I think there is a difference between someone who didn’t vote Labour because they were demoralsed and thought they were crap or worse and someone who said that a Tory government would be a good thing.

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  571. So I’m creating illusions in New Labour by refusing to call for workers who have no illusions in them, to vote to return them to power. What kind of ‘logic’ is that?

    ‘To split the vote so that his brother can win’? What kind of fucked up logic is that. He is highly likely to either win or come second. Ellis does not even understand how internal LP elections work, let alone elections in the wider world. This combines arse-licking support for openly neo-liberal privatisers like Gordon Brown with sectarian incomprehension when their defeat produces the very slight beginnings of a leftward shift, of a backlash against the de-Labourisation of Labour. That is what Ed Milliband is trying to exploit.

    “You are spinning like a top. You should make up your mind if you are a left liquidationist or a right wing Labour liquidationist. Are you working for the Ed Milliband campaign?”

    These are the remarks of someone who understands nothing at all about the Labour Party, and whose cod ‘knowledge’ is derived solely from 70-year old books from his objects of cult worship.

    For the first time in around two decades there has been a very limited shift to the left in a Labour leadership election. I think that is a good thing. It is a result of a election defeat that the incumbent Thatcherite New Labour leadership, that Ellis advocated support for to the bitter end, richly deserved.

    “I think there is a difference between someone who didn’t vote Labour because they were demoralsed and thought they were crap or worse and someone who said that a Tory government would be a good thing.”

    ‘Demoralised and thought they were crap”… what kind of patronising nonsense is that to millions of workers who rightly considered New Labour to be no better than the Tories? Instead of ‘demoralised and though they were crap’ how about ‘hated them and wished they were dead’? That’s how many class conscious working people feel about New Labour.

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  572. All rant and misrepresentation. Your penchant and only skills.

    `These are the remarks of someone who understands nothing at all about the Labour Party, and whose cod ‘knowledge’ is derived solely from 70-year old books from his objects of cult worship.’

    For someone not bothered about 70 year old books you sure kept this thread ticking along.

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  573. Prianikoff – that Trotsky continued to fight Stalinism in the Comintern to 1933 and beyond doesn’t invalidate the suggestion that within Russia the counter-revolutionary process wasn’t completed in the late 20s.
    Actually Cliff might agree with you about 1921, hope that doesn’t make you think of yourself as an ultra-leftist. Enjoy September.

    David Ellis – I’m reluctant to further point out your faults as it seems to be pointless to you and not likely to rescue the thread from your usual ranting about how everyone but you is a sectarian. But this statement:
    For someone not bothered about 70 year old books
    is obviously a misrepresentation of
    These are the remarks of someone who understands nothing at all about the Labour Party, and whose cod ‘knowledge’ is derived solely from 70-year old books from his objects of cult worship.
    He didn’t say that 70 year old books aren’t worth bothering with, just that you know nothing apart from their contents. Such misrepresentation and ranting does nobody any favours, just as it has turned people away from your favoured political project and convinces noone when applied to blaming everyone else on the left for its failure.

    To get back to the post and so on, Perhaps the question of whether there was an alternative to party rule in 1921 should be addressed by supporters of Mark H’s thesis. I also note a couple of points in the post:
    Dissenting views are not something you defeat politically. You do it by packing the meeting. When you watch it happening it’s the politics of an unconfident bureaucracy carried out in real time. Anyone in thrall to Stalin in 1927 would feel comfortable with it.
    Now there is a personal bias here

    Is it possible that the personal bias is being in a small group and feeling that whenever a larger group dominates it is unfair?When the boot’s on the other foot
    it’s hard to conceive of a revolutionary party conceding to the entire working class a freedom of expression and organisation that it is not willing to grant to its own members.
    It might be hard for you, but I don’t see it as impossible or even unlikely. Insisting that your party pull in the same direction (hopefully after a democratic process) is not the same as being undemocratic in the world at large.

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  574. …. er no, David, you are missing the point. Its not 70 year old books, or even 150 year old books that are the problem.

    Its people who idolise them and their authors and quote them as infallible authorities that are the problem.

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  575. Gosh is it only a few months ago that billj was describing this lot as anarcho syndicalists or some such on this very blog?

    http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/3128

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  576. ID and David- I’m knocking this on the head. Feel free to continue your conversation in another forum.

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  577. If you don’t want prolonged controversy with heresy-hunters on a blog, then it is a bit unwise to post material that will attract such heresy-hunters. I don’t give in to heresy-hunters, but Liam seems to be in favour of running the white flag up the mast lest the controversy and kerfuffle upset the softies in his own organisation.

    I will observe than ‘anti-sectarian sectarianism’ is a yet another political problem on the left that needs weeding out, and can be as individious as the more straightforward kind of sectarianism. Those who view any prolonged or bitter controversy, even over issues of principle, as a problem to be disposed of or suppressed, are a trend as indvidious as the actions of the worst SWP hack. In fact, you could argue that the proverbial SWP hack is more honest. Just an observation.

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  578. ID take my word for it no one is interested in a two person ding dong. That’s the end of the matter. Any further comments from you and David on this topic will be deleted.

    If you would like to share e mail addresses with each other I’m happy to facilitate that and if fresh contributors join in that’s not a problem either. But this “dialogue” ran out of steam a little while ago.

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  579. A better idea would be simply to set a time limit (say of five days) on discussions, if you don’t want them to go on too long. Then close the comments. But condemning people for replying to attacks on them when comments are perpetually open, is not reasonable.

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  580. ID, whilst I agree with Bill (and presumably Liam) when he suggested that there’s not much point carrying on this particular part of the debate with David at the moment, I think it would be a mistake to close this debate.

    After all interest in the Russian revolution is, for revolutionaries, far from purely academic and it is I’d argue an essential and mainly understudied area.

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  581. Jason – it was one of your comrades who suggested to me that a very intense and often over-personalised discussion between a couple of people was offputting. I agree.

    If fresh contributors, or people who have not engaged much, want to participate want to join in that’s fine but the toing and froing was getting a bit silly.

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  582. OK, I’ll agree. I was wrong.

    See, easy, not often you see that on the left!

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  583. “in fact, you could argue that the proverbial SWP hack is more honest.”

    Cheers.

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  584. In fact the answer is, that the bookishness of the revolution is confined to the dust jacket,to be traipsed out for point scoring ego!s.Was Lenin to blame,in the thoughts of Marx no,in the thoughts of Engels yes.

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