Liam redux

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Don't do it, George

Raphie de Santos of the Scottish Socialist Party makes a case against George Galloway standing for Respect in Scotland. George Galloway is right: the Scottish parliament needs a left voice after three years of acquiescence to the recession and the recent cuts put forward by the Coalition. That left voice has been sadly missing for…

Liam
2–3 minutes

Raphie de Santos of the Scottish Socialist Party makes a case against George Galloway standing for Respect in Scotland.

image George Galloway is right: the Scottish parliament needs a left voice after three years of acquiescence to the recession and the recent cuts put forward by the Coalition. That left voice has been sadly missing for nearly the past four years as the SSP, left Greens and independents lost their seats as the left of the Scottish electorate put their faith in Salmond’s left sounding SNP. Of course the tragic split in the SSP did not help either. Four years later voters are disillusioned in the SNP and many are unwilling to put their trust in Labour again. The LibDems will be obliterated after becoming the Tories’ king makers in what is likely to turn out to be the most vicious anti-working class government since the 1930s.

The SSP has slowly rebuilt itself, rising from the ashes of the split, to play a leading role in the campaign against school closures in Glasgow; building along with the Scottish Socialist Youth a militant anti-fascist movement in Scotland against the SDL and rebuilding the campaign against the war in Afghanistan. They have been in the forefront in pushing the STUC into action against the cuts and offering a real socialist alternative.

Electoral support has been on the up in council elections.  As the fight against the cuts intensifies with the SSP doing all it can to take it forward and the reason for the split becoming clearer to all as the Sheridan perjury progresses there is real hope that the SSP can make further gains in next year’s Scottish elections.

If George Galloway stands it will split the left vote and decrease the chances of a real left voice in Holyrood in 2011. George has many plus points: his support of the Palestinians and his anti-war stance are legendary. We hope that he won’t use that hard earned credibility to damage a socialist organisations here.

George don’t split the left vote in Scotland.

Respect has no organisation here and we in the SSP stand for many of the same principles that George and Salma Yaqoob express so eloquently. We are building a party for working people which is opposed to the imperialist wars, stands with the Palestinians and is fighting the Con Dems. Let us get on with that job without further dividing the left. This is the time we need to be pulling together.

82 responses to “Don't do it, George”

  1. John Mullen Avatar
    John Mullen

    fair point

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  2. Joseph Kisolo Avatar
    Joseph Kisolo

    I was one of the anti-war generation, in terms of my political infancy – back then we had so much hope. Now we are squabbling about standing against each other 😦

    p.s. Just in case its not clear, I also think this would be a daft move for Galloway. I hope the conference votes against this move http://www.therespectparty.net/breakingnews.php?id=950

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  3. bristolred Avatar
    bristolred

    Good article, GG standing in Scotland at this point in time would simply compound the problems that already exist and have been so well documented.

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  4. Tinted Rose Avatar
    Tinted Rose

    Interesting mention of the perjury trial. My view is that it destroys the credibility of the SSP utterly.

    The general election produced terrible results for both sides of the split in the Scottish left and they are likely to be worse after this high profile flogging of each other.

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  5. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    Perhaps Galloway can break the dead lock in the sect addled Scottish left of labour. SSP comrades would do well to get on board and enter Respect instead of setting their face against this potentially revitalising initiative. Somehow I don’t think they have the political ability to take this opportunity however and will prefer apolitical sectarian posturing to actually having a chance of getting an anti-war, pro-palestine, larger than life, anti-cuts MSP elected. I hope I am wrong and they embrace this golden opportunity if it comes along instead of talking about vote splitting. I wouldn’t normally think it a good idea for Respect to expand into Scotland and certainly not Wales but given Galloway’s history and the fact that he is Scottish and the political log jam that needs freeing up then I say go for it.

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  6. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    What a completely ridiculous article. The SSP is an embittered and useless rump, which refuses to negotiate with other left forces in Scotland. It has no right to demand anyone else stand aside, and nobody should listen to its whining.

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  7. Andy Avatar
    Andy

    What other ‘left forces’ are these Mark P? All the TUSC candidates at the last election were Solidarity members, where there is a fairly obvious problem with unity at this stage.

    Joining Respect (assuming it is actually Respect that’s standing, Galloway is talking about standing as “Galloway4Glasgow”) would mean dropping support for independence.

    There are folk on the Left who disagree with the SSP’s stance on the national question but it seemed bizarre to me that Galloway made opposition to independence a headline part of his spiel on Newsnight – that he was “for labourism, and against seperatism”.

    That would put him quite squarely against most of the far left in Scotland which would call for a yes vote in an independence referendum, even if there are varying levels of enthusiasm for independence; ie SWP recently voted to call for a yes vote, but does not really publically agitate for independence the same way the SSP has.

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  8. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    This is utter madness. I really hope comrades in RESPECT realise how farcical it would be to see an English organisation, with no base in Scotland, and supported by no existing left group, expand in to Scotland and further split the left vote.

    I watched GG on Newsnight Scotland and the best he could offer for why he was doing this is that he would be a “big hitter”, that the Scottish Parliament had been devoid of talent, and he would enrich it. The one piece of politics he had to offer was opposition to independence.

    I note that he’s also pretty much made this announcement BEFORE it’s voted on at RESPECT conference.

    Self organisation of the Scottish left, outside of centralised control from London, is something that has been well established from the founding of the SSP, and was even continued after the split by Solidarity as well. It would be the height of arrogance for an English based organisation to decide it was the force that was going to play a unifying role whilst not consulting the Scottish left, and that they knew best what would help the progress of socialism in Scotland by imposing a divisive unionist candidate and then demanding we all get behind him.

    As for the commenter that said the SSP will be destroyed by the perjury trial, I really think you have the wrong end of the stick. If the comments of normal people in Glasgow are anything to go by, as the full extent of Sheridan’s unbelievable behaviour comes to light, I rather think it would be George who would be damaged by his long defence of Tommy (including his Record coloumn where he announced “I would defend Tommy even if he was guilty.”)

    RESPECT deciding unilaterally to impose itself in the political environment of another country where it has no organisation would be incredibly divisive and a major set back for socialism in Scotland.

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  9. prianikoff Avatar
    prianikoff

    I’ll take Raphie’s word for it about the SSP “rising from the ashes of the split”.

    But it all sounds like bog-standard ‘left activism’ to me.
    On that basis there’s room for one or two organisations of a few hundred members.

    Having a real impact on national politics is another matter. The decline in the SSP’s vote speaks for itself on that score.

    The more I’ve seen of them, the more sceptical I’ve become. It’s led me to the following conclusion:-

    Rather than being the victim of adverse circumstances, the SSP has foundered on the incorrect political positions it adopted from the start.

    “Beyond the Fragments” combined with Left Scottish Nationalism was an accident waiting to happen.
    As a result of this, the SSP was unable to correctly analyse the situation it faced and made incorrect decisions.

    George Galloway now steps back in, hoping to mop-up the fragments of the Scottish Left. He’s being opportunist of course. If he succeeds, it will be the result of the political mistakes made by the SSP.

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  10. Plot Tracer Avatar
    Plot Tracer

    I certainly don’t think Galloway would do anything to help Scottish Left politics – nor actually make any inroads in Glasgow – people here have a long memory – and he was far from effective as an MP when he was part of the Labour Party here.

    The SSP is strong in it’s membership and has proven to be principled and with the likes of Leftbanker and the Scottish Socialist Youth, shown to have its finger on the pulse of both the economic situation and whats happening in our communities…

    Galloway needs to step back and allow the left in Scotland work through it’s current problems. What ever the outcome, Sheridan is finished (Galloway stepping in seems to acknowledge that – Sheridan has some loyal friends, eh..?)

    Respect have no support in Scotland – it would be a bit like Scargills lot coming up from the “mother country” to save all of us colonials again.

    I completely agree with the poster (Jack) who says that people should not underestimate the feeling against Sheridan and also the respect the SSP are gaining through their unquestioned honesty and integrity throughout this Tommy induced Court farce.

    Galloway – stay oot o’ it.

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  11. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    The post-implosion SSP is a tiny and embittered sect without the authority to claim Scotland as its electoral “patch”.

    If it wants to negotiate with other forces on the left about electoral cooperation, that would be a welcome change. But I see no evidence of that, only a wildly arrogant demand that others get out of its way.

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  12. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    Leaving aside the wider point, which I obviously disagree with, I don’t think there’s anything “arrogant” about a Scottish organisation telling an English organisation with NO BASE here that they have no business muscling in and trying to ‘fix’ us.

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  13. Adamski Avatar
    Adamski

    Whatever ones views on GG, Galloway has been involved in Scottish politics for decades as a council leader and a longstanding MP in Glasgow, so he is hardly parachuting in from England. I am not on the ground in Glasgow, though certainly it would be extremely interesting to see him in the Scottish Parliament and good on him for opposing the nationalist crap!

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  14. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Another Mark P writes…

    George would make an excellent MSP.

    However, people are jumping the gun a tad, as far as I’ve read there’s been no real mention of establishing Respect in Scotland. To do so right now would be the height of folly, establishing Respect in its key bases of Tower Hamlets (where there’s a crucial council by-election in Dec) and Birmingham where there are council elections I believe in 2011 should be the overwhelming priority.

    George should stand as an independent same as Ken Livingstone at his best did for London Mayor. If George is successful then the possibilitiies of renewing the once powerful and dynamic Scottish outside left will be markedly improved. The organisations may be shot to pieces, the constituency of voters they once represented certainly still exist.

    My only concern would be George’s position on independence for Scotland. He is a well-known opponent, though standing for a Scottish Parliament suggests he embraces more of a nationalist position than the once dominant pro-union politics of Scottish Labour when he was the Labour Party General Secretary in Scotland.

    Well thats what one Mark P thinks, can’t speak for the other one.

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  15. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    “Whatever ones views on GG, Galloway has been involved in Scottish politics for decades as a council leader and a longstanding MP in Glasgow, so he is hardly parachuting in from England. I am not on the ground in Glasgow, though certainly it would be extremely interesting to see him in the Scottish Parliament and good on him for opposing the nationalist crap!”

    Quick message from on the ground in Glasgow: people hate the milk lapping chump.

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  16. prianikoff Avatar
    prianikoff

    The SSP always blames everything on Tommy Sheridan, never its own mistakes.
    This is supported by a variety of “I have my finger on the pulse of the Glasgow working class” -type anecdotes. We’ll have to take their word for it.
    But the votes say otherwise

    Galloway is being quite shrewd in identifying with “Labour” (in the broad sense) and opposing full independence. Most Scottish workers agree with him.
    Even more since the Credit Crunch.
    This is the political reality that the SSP has been avoiding for years.
    Now it’s coming back to bite them.

    Similarly, their embrace of the daft 1970’s slogan “The Personal is Political” opened the door to an organisational meltdown.
    Given the barrage of adverse stories in the gutter-press I’d be very worried about the “supporters” they get on this basis.

    It’s time for the SSP to hold a Conventicle and reject these wrong positions!

    The argument that Galloway is a “Brit”, being parachuted into Scotland is hilarious.
    Actually, if I was in Respect, I’d be a bit worried that this might be a move to rejoin the Labour Party.
    Mind you, if they accepted him back, he’d probably be more effective at the minute.

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  17. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    The problem with much of the ‘keep off our patch, you English lot’ stuff is that it really doesn’t convince people like Galloway who oppose all the self-righteous petty nationalism that passes for political discourse in much of the Scottish left today.

    While I couldn’t care less if Scotland became independent or not, I do believe that working people north and south of the border have a common interest in unity and so should be organised in the same political parties – just like they are in the same unions. The SSP and Solidarity have clearly failed to capitalise on what was once fertile ground – so they’ve not really got a lot of strong grounds for telling other people to keep out.

    After all, if Respect organised in Scotland it would become a Scottish organisation and it would be Scottish members who made the local decisions – in the same way as Manchester members make Manchester decisions or Tower Hamlets members make Tower Hamlets decisions.

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  18. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    Good points TLC tho’ mired in some unfortunate language.

    There is nothing wrong with supporting an independent Scotland. And anybody who does is perfectly capable of being an internationalist and committed to solidarity at the same time thankyou very much. It is hugely patronising to suggest anything different.

    By standing for the Scottish Parliament George is explicitly rejecting the hyped up anti-nationalism of an earlier era of Scots Labour, which plumbed the depths when most in Scots Labour opposed devolution in the ’79 referendum. So there is no need whatsoever for George to pander to anti-nationalism to garner votes.

    As for Scottish Respect. That is far too premature and entirely the wrong priority. Lets get George elected as an MSP first, succeed with that and the realignment of the Scots outside left he would emerge as a pivotal figure may follow. But to assume what name and form that might take right now is an unhelpful distraction.

    Mark P

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  19. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    “The SSP and Solidarity have clearly failed to capitalise on what was once fertile ground – so they’ve not really got a lot of strong grounds for telling other people to keep out.”

    You’d think the SSP had had some kind of massive problem or something!

    “After all, if Respect organised in Scotland it would become a Scottish organisation and it would be Scottish members who made the local decisions – in the same way as Manchester members make Manchester decisions or Tower Hamlets members make Tower Hamlets decisions.”

    Just like that.

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  20. Andrew Avatar
    Andrew

    Mark P number 1 – do you not see the irony of a CWI member calling other folks “sects”? The SSP is obviously larger than the CWI in Scotland, what the fuck does that make youse?

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  21. Andy M Avatar
    Andy M

    Whatever questions the problems of the left in Scotland pose for us all, the answer is not tipping a self-absorbed, self-publicist like George Galloway into the mix. The only outcome i can forsee if he goes through with this is that he will splinter the positon of the left even further and we will all be left like others before who’ve dealt with this man to pick through the rubble left behind. The political opportunism is breath-taking – who in the right mind would want to associate with this character?

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  22. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    Pretty much said it all, Andy M.

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  23. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    I’m sorry if my language offends Mark P (not sure which one you are so I’m not sure whether I should be really sorry or just mildly regretful) but sometimes the semantics of the debate miss the point.

    Scotland is part of the UK. That’s political reality. Now if the Scots vote to leave the UK then fair enough but personally I don’t think it’s the major issue facing Scottish working people. I think GG is too vehement in his anti-nationalism but equally I think the SSP do them selves no favours with the unsavory tone to their nationalism (the recent piece on the SSY site about George is case in point)

    GG has asked our membership if we wish to organise within Scotland. Once that happens it will be up to Scottish residents to decide whether they will take up the offer. If not, then there will be no Scottish Respect. Simple really. If yes, then there will be a new player on the Left and people will have another choice. But the point that there is no left organisation with hegemony within Scotland is surely true. Surely an organisation with a particular political outlook and set of ideas should have the right to organise wherever they want – it’ll be up to the people to decide whether to support that viewpoint of not.

    How any realignment of the left takes place in the future is a matter of conjecture but I for one would prefer George to stand under a recognizable and accountable brand as Respect rather than some ‘George for Glasgow’ label with no clear political identity.

    I’ve no problem with the idea that you can be in favour of Scottish independence AND be an internationalist but constant references to ‘Brit parties’ etc from sections of the Scottish left suggest that their internationalism often extends as far as Nicaragua and Pakistan but not as far as Newcastle or Preston.

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  24. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    And just as an aside, it could be pointed out that GG got almost three times the vote of the SSP at the last election.

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  25. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    TLC, I don’t see what’s unsavoury about pointing out that it’s the height of arrogance for a socialist organisation to say it’s going to go to another country, ignore the existing left, set up shop and then demand everyone else unifies with them.

    The fact of the matter is that no one has been able to give a good political reason why this should happen beyond GG being a “personality”, “heavy hitter” etc. Of course RESPECT are capable of coming and trying to make a go of setting up in Scotland (I have my doubts about how successful you’ll be as a unionist left force but there you go), the point is WHY should this happen? It’s hard not to see this as having NO justification apart from GG sees it as a potential new job. His entire argument so far has basically consisted of “I can get in” and “I am awesome”.

    The only point of politics he has raised is opposition to independence.

    What it will actually do is cause yet more fracturing of the Scottish left, delay any potential regroupment and significantly set back the cause of socialism here.

    Self organisation of the Scottish left is an important and necessary principle, and I can’t believe we’re going back to the bad old days of being lectured on our own concrete conditions by people in another country.

    Internationalism means solidarity and respect between peoples, not lecturing others on how they should conduct their politics.

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  26. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “Internationalism means solidarity and respect between peoples, not lecturing others on how they should conduct their politics.”

    Which is what you are doing surely?

    But perhaps the point you miss is that many people don’t see Scotland as separate but as part of the same political entity – the UK. You may not like it, you may wish to change it. You have that right. But equally, surely, others who disagree with your position may consider they also have a right to argue their case. You think Scotland is a separate country – but it is also part of the same political entity – the British nation state – as England and Wales.

    Should Respect chose to organise in Scotland then members there will be, by definition, Scottish. No one is asking you unify around Respect. You wouldn’t and you haven’t been asked to. But surely it’s a bit arrogant to suggest that Scots who want to join Respect should not be allowed to because Scotland is “a separate country”

    You’ll need to be more sophisticated than elevating your own point of view to a point of principle in order to shut down debate – after all most people in Scotland do not agree with you. So you’ve some work to do to convince people your ideas are right, let alone a principle.

    As for regroupment? But do you really think the existing Scottish left are in the mood for political regroupment? If so perhaps a player not marred by the nastiness of the last few years may be helpful. You obviously don’t think so but I’m not convinced.

    But as I said before the decision whether Respect organizes in Scotland will ultimately be taken by Scottish residents – expressed in membership subscriptions and votes cast.

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  27. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Respect once had a pretty strong presence in Newham. For all practical purposes it no longer exists there even though it’s the borough bordering Tower Hamlets. Scotland is even further away.

    I’m open to persuasion but it’s not clear how this suggestion is either part of a long term project to strengthen Respect or to build an organisation to the left of Labour. If it is neither of these things what purpose does it serve?

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  28. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    Exactly Liam, TLC and others have yet to offer anything approaching reason WHY this is a good idea.

    “If so perhaps a player not marred by the nastiness of the last few years may be helpful.”

    What, and that’s supposed to be George Galloway, the man who (until he saw that he was being discredited) backed Tommy Sheridan to the hilt.

    “Let the monkeys shriek in their trees, the lion walks on by. The lion is Tommy Sheridan”

    “I would defend Tommy even if he was guilty.”

    GG has actually played an active (and highly negative) role in the break up of the Scottish left, and his reputation up here will have to deal with the fact that he backed Sheridan through one of the most atrocious episodes of misogyny and lack of principle the left has seen in recent years.

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  29. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Liam, this is a reasonable point – though Respect’s 3448 votes in Newham in four wards in 2010 compares somewhat favourably with the SSPs 3157 votes in ten constituencies.

    The strategic argument will have to be made by the proposers of the amendment at the conference. Clearly Respect, with an office based in Manchester and electoral bases in Tower Hamlets and south Birmingham, is currently not in a position to claim to be an all England party. But if there is sufficient support in Scotland then perhaps now is the time to test the waters in the run up to the Holyrood elections.

    These are tactical questions. What I object to most of all is the petty nationalist argument summed up by the stupidity on the SSY website that Respect is “coming to enlighten the northern barbarians.”

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  30. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    Why is it stupid?

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  31. Sarah Avatar
    Sarah

    What a shockeroony, old person tells young people that they are stupid, and English people tell Scottish people that they know what’s best for them.

    Quite aside from the fact that there’s hugely important political reasons why RESPECT should not form in Scotland and why Galloway should not seek to find himself a wee diddy job in the wee diddy parliament cause he think’s it’ll be a wee bit of fun and he’ll be well paid for it, he shouldn’t stand cause he’s a complete and total embarrassment – even more so than Sheridan – more people know who Galloway is, and are aware of how much of a fool he’s made of himself!

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  32. gravitas Avatar
    gravitas

    I hope GG does stand in Glasgow. It’s about time we had a truly credible figure of the left standing in Scotland. The SSP are finished and rightly so. The Scottish working class won’t touch them with a barge pole. Words like treachery and scabs will be engraged on their political epitaph for ever more.

    Good luck to Tommy and Gail in their battle against the NOTW, the State and the SSP.

    Sadly, I’m not convinced that Tommy could get elected again due to the concerted media campaign to demonise him. GG will find lots of support in Scotland, and Glasgow in particular.

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  33. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    Lots of support? Who will be his activists?

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  34. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    Why is it stupid? – because it’s utterly apolitical and has no basis in fact except perhaps in some delusions about scotland being an oppressed nation.

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  35. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    It’s not apolitical to state that socialists in Scotland have had more than enough of London based organisations telling us we’re wrong (or stupid!) and that you metropolitans know better.

    If Respect votes to come and organise in Scotland you can’t deny that it will be in total disregard of socialists who have actually been organising in Glasgow for the past 5 years. The fact that you think you know better than people actually operating in this political environment is an example of sheer arrogance and is the basis for the remark about your view you can come and ‘enlighten” us. It’s a flippant comment with a serious political basis: the Scottish left is self-organised, not controlled from London, and we want to keep it that way.

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  36. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    really jack -the level of your argument and that of Sarah before you is just so apolitical. it amounts to little more than don’t tell us what to do cos we’re scottish and don’t criticise us cos we’re young. If respect organises in Scotland it’ll be Scottish resisdents that make decisions. What’s so hard about that to understand?

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  37. bristolred Avatar
    bristolred

    TLC writes: “If respect organises in Scotland it’ll be Scottish resisdents that make decisions.”

    Isn’t that just a tad disingenuous, TLC? It’s the forthcoming Respect conference – in London – that will take the decision. How many Scottish members does Respect currently have?

    This issue has been hastily pushed onto the agenda for the Respect conference. Normally a political party would have a serious discussion over a period of time before making a move like this. It says much about the top-down nature of Respect, and the dominance of a handful of leaders and their coterie, that that hasn’t happened.

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  38. Andrew Avatar
    Andrew

    “Isn’t that just a tad disingenuous, TLC? It’s the forthcoming Respect conference – in London – that will take the decision. How many Scottish members does Respect currently have?”

    Exactly.

    Also why should Respect put resources into organising in Scotland – where there are TOO MANY left groups standing as opposed to trying to build in the areas of England where there is no left-wing or progressive presence?

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  39. Sarah Avatar
    Sarah

    It really says it all that you find arguments surrounding Scottish political self-determination ‘apolitical’. You’re unwilling to listen to the real reasons why a political party from England with no grounded support here attempting to set up when there’s already a divided left (which IS making very serious attempts to heal itself – just because you have an agenda that makes you want to disregard the activists on the ground in Scotland who have been holding things together through one of the most politically difficult periods, doesn’t mean that you are correct in doing so) is insulting and daft. You’re unwilling because you think you know what’s best for Scotland despite not living here and not knowing how the SSP/SSY have been working with other local community activists, anarchists, greens and unaligned on a number of important campaigns, and another socialist group attempting to form out if nothing makes a mockery of the real issues lefties in Scotland have been working on, it makes a mockery of the struggle and it further divides socialists who are beginning to heal after a really difficult time. You just don’t know, and you’re not willing to listen even though the actual left in Scotland are telling you they disagree. You see yourself as superior to us and have no respect (huh) for real socialists in scotland, no doubt about it – and believe me, that’s entirely political.

    We’re used to the English left patronising us about how right they are and how wrong they are, excuse us if we’re a bit offended by an English group proclaiming that we don’t exist, that they’re going to attempt to usurp the groundwork we’ve been doing continuously here for years, and that despite that fact that almost the entirety of the Scottish left supports independence – well, this must be wrong, because an English group says so! Don’t you see how ridiculous that is? You don’t support the right of self determination, you support England telling Scotland what to do, and how dare you say this is apolitical – the fact that it’s important to Scotland but isn’t important to you shows exactly why you shouldn’t be backing an attempt for this to happen in Scotland.

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  40. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    I love how TLC keeps justifying this move on the basis of mythical Scottish Respect members WHO DON’T EXIST YET.

    There is no political justification for this move, no one on this thread has yet uttered one!

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  41. Andy Richards Avatar
    Andy Richards

    That’s because there isn’t one. This is so ironic when the majority on the Respect national committee have adopted a “maintaining a few backyards” strategy in England rather than trying to build it nationally. Now some people want parachute into Scotland?

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  42. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “We’re used to the English left patronising us”

    Why not try a bit of politics then? You really need to move further than I’m in Scotland, you are not.

    And perhaps you wouldn’t feel the need to be so outraged at being called ‘apolitical’ if you didn’t construct apolitical arguments around silly phrases about like ‘enlightening northern barbarians’

    As for Andy’s point – putting “maintaining a few backyards” in speech marks doesn’t suddenly create a strategy for you to knock down. Which majority Respect NC members have argued for that? and with those words?

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  43. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    `It’s not apolitical to state that socialists in Scotland have had more than enough of London based organisations telling us we’re wrong (or stupid!) and that you metropolitans know better.’

    I can empathise with this. The Labour and TU bureaucrats have taken Scotland and Wales and English regions very much for granted for decades safe in the knowledge that they would get elected come what may but if Galloway, Respect’s most prominent member, was standing in Scotland it is hard to see how the idea that Respect is a London-based machine party could be maintained. Galloway has a long history in Scottish politics and is himself Scottish so parachuting is not a serious charge.

    As to nationalism fine. I think any worker-backed socialist regime that came to power in Britain would immediately make the nations of Britain sovereign and independent. It would then offer them voluntary membership in a Federation of Socialist British Nations. In the meantime there should not be tension between the labour movement and Scottish and Welsh nationalists on the left as a matter of principle (though the bureaucrats are constantly inflaming these passions for their own self-serving reasons) but only when important issues are at stake.

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  44. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    TLC, why don’t you try a bit of politics and explain how creating further disunity on the Scottish left and setting up a new organisation where it doesn’t currently exist advances the cause of socialism?

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  45. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    “You really need to move further than I’m in Scotland, you are not. ”

    We haven’t got past that point because you haven’t answered it. The best you can offer for an organisation to move into another country and suddenly try and claim Scotland’s left politics as its patch is that “When we do that we’ll recruit Scottish people.” It’s a non argument.

    Scotland is another country with a different political situation. Please come to terms with that.

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  46. bristolred Avatar
    bristolred

    OK TLC, here’s a straightforward question for you. Has Respect got ANY members in Scotland apart from Larry. If so, approximately how many? Single figures? Double figures?

    Andy’s point seems to me to be a fair one. If Respect is incapable of building branches outside two or three core areas south of the border, what is the justification for the Scottish move?

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  47. lan G Avatar
    lan G

    The one point that is being missed here is that it is bare-naked electoralism.

    Galloway didn’t announce that he wants to set up a new organisation to fight for the working class. To oppose cuts, to organise with workers. To get involved in community campaigns.

    He has decided he is going to stand for parliament and create an organisation around him to work for an election.

    Speaking to those involved in no2eu and STUSC they bemoaned the fact that they only had 6months to try and get the word out about their new electoral front.

    Galloway deciding that with 6months to go he wants to set up an organisational body to support him standing for elections is repeating the same mistakes from those last two outings from the Solidarity/CPB/etc group.

    So when people are saying “he doesn’t understand the political situation” etc it’s not just that he hasn’t been involved in Glasgow.

    And on top of all that if he _does_ get elected then it will be on the basis of him being famous. For having a column in the Daily Record and not on the basis of having an on the ground organisation with a background of community work.

    Not only is this a terrible base for building a socialist organisation (which in reality is the elect GG on 60k/year + expenses + gold plated pension campaign), but it yet again ignores the lessons of the 2003-2007 period where the SSP jumped to having 6 MSPS but only 2 councillors etc which has been gone over in various places.

    Full disclosure: from Dundee where you will find no one on the left willing to touch him with a 10ft barge ple due to his past activities here.

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  48. prianikoff Avatar
    prianikoff

    Gognitive dissonance time.
    Let’s put all this in perspective shall we?

    In the 2007 elections to the Scottish Parliament the SSP got 12,731 votes.
    i.e. A lot less than Solidarity’s 31,066 and the Scottish Senior Citizens 38,743.

    (not to mention the SSP and Labour Party)

    In the 2010 General Election ‘Scottish Socialist’ got 3,157 votes.

    Get real!
    How can Galloway standing make things any worse than this?

    As to the Independence question:-

    In 2007 SNP just squeaked past Labour to become the largest Party in the Scottish Assembly.

    But in 2010 its vote crashed by about 150,000 and it was well beaten by Labour.

    The conclusion seems to be that Scots voters want a devolved Parliament, but probably won’t vote for full independence.

    In which case, how does it benefit Socialists to advocate it?

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  49. Chris C Avatar
    Chris C

    Answer to Bristol Red – yes, Respect does have Scottish members and supporters. A discussion has been taking place with them this week about the feasibility and desire to start organizing in Scotland.

    GG has more supporters, especially in Glasgow and, to a lesser extent, Edinburgh.

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  50. Chris C Avatar
    Chris C

    Second answer – you know full well that Respect has built new branches in half a dozen cities in the last two years but don’t let that get in the way of being phlegmatic.

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  51. Alan G Avatar
    Alan G

    @prianikoff, yes lets put in in perspective.

    Every time an additional socialist candidate stands the vote is split and drops.

    When two stand they get 100 each, when one stands they get 1000. This is essentially the argument Sheridan made in 2006:

    “there is room for 2 socialist organisations”. Looking at the difference between results in 2003->2007 will prove otherwise.

    But yet again, it is concentrating on electoral results.

    Maybe if they organised on the ground and in a year or so stood it wouldn’t be as bad. It isn’t being described as parachuting because he is from outside Scotland, it is parachuting because no organisational banner he will stand under has done any work in the constituency.

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  52. bristolred Avatar
    bristolred

    Chris, you wrote: “Respect has built new branches in half a dozen cities in the last two years”

    Great! Which cities? Because I don’t know that ‘full well’ – or indeed at all.

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  53. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    Chris C – are you a member of Manchester Respect?

    The resolution that is being amended at the Respect conference stands in the name of the Manchester Branch of Respect and is signed by one of its leading members. What discussions were held at the Manchester branch of Respect at its meeting on 4th November, just before the deadline for submission, about whether it supported the amendment? Was the amendment circulated to members of the branch that had submitted the original resolution for information and comment?

    Where is the democratic discussion in Respect in England about whether such a significant step should be taken, based on an amendment submitted only a week before the Respect Conference?

    If it’s that important why couldn’t it have been discussed at branches prior to the Conference or even submitted as a resolution in its own right for the original deadline?

    Have any of the members signing it learned anything from the way the SWP used to treat Respect?

    Some questions for you to ponder.

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  54. Danny Avatar
    Danny

    George Galloway was my MP in Glasgow for several years, he wasnt particuarly left wing and had no activist base of support, thats why he left for a career in London.

    From there he played an active role in encouraging Tommy Sheridans destruction of the united SSP, as did the CWI & SWP. All together they also made sure no united left party emerged in England.

    Im no nationalist (not even a petty one), though that was Georges main strategy to publicise himself through ‘Scotland United’ when he was an actual MP here.

    But you wouldnt touch these people with a bargepole, the actual Scottish left is right to tell them where to go

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  55. Chris C Avatar
    Chris C

    Democratic discussion within Respect arises from the existence of branches. I note that there are a number of contributions from people advocating ‘a national structure’ for Respect who reside in areas with a Respect membership but no functioning branch. I am in favour of building new branches but it needs local activists to make it happen. Democracy is not an abstract concept in a political party as you well know.

    Prinkipo – your questions are confused. The deadline for amendments for conference came after the date you suggest. Members of the party are entitled, indeed encouraged, to submit motions or amendments either through their branch or by a minimum of six members supporting it. Therefore, there is nothing amiss about one member of a large branch supporting an amendment without raising it at the branch.

    The motion that you mention was intended as a discursive basis for discussion so the amendments effectively form the policy base that will arise from conference.

    Branches are not the unit of discussion because the conference is not a delegate body, though I would like to see it moving in this direction, which would require a national branch building strategy that I believe is close to the possible now. This would naturally affect the conference discussion process.

    The democratic discussion is happening now and will take place at the conference. It would have been a far less open manner to proceed if the idea of organizing in Scotland were only considered by National Council, no?

    ‘Have any of the members signing it learned anything from the way the SWP used to treat Respect?’ . I can’t speak for other but the imagined equivalence is amusing. It is a question that has been in my mind for a while but not in the direction that you suggest.

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  56. Andy Richards Avatar
    Andy Richards

    “As for Andy’s point – putting “maintaining a few backyards” in speech marks doesn’t suddenly create a strategy for you to knock down. Which majority Respect NC members have argued for that? and with those words?”

    TLC, that’s PRECISELY what the majority argued for; I was at the NC meeting where it was discussed.

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  57. Dave Hill Avatar
    Dave Hill

    And TUSC is in the mix, too. TUSC will be standing in Scotland (as we did in the UK Parliamentary elections). Unite with(in) TUSC!

    Dave Hill (TUSC canidate in Brighton Kemptown, 2010 general election, member of SR, supporter of NSSN and CNWP, but also, activist within the Brighton Anti-Cuts Coalition which brings together SP, SWP, SR, Green Left (!) various local voluntary and community organisations- we had a 2,000 strong antii-cuts demi a couple of weeks ago

    see http://brightontusc.blogspot.com/

    Tragic if the Sopcialist Left is split two ways let alone 5 ways in the forthcoming MSP elections!

    The Workers United Will Never Be Defeated! Tragic if organisations purpoting to represent the worlers are so spli and incapable of offering some leadership!

    Welcome to the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition Bulletin No1. 11 November 2010

    TUSC aims to bring trade unionists, socialists and anti-cuts campaigners together to stand candidates at elections who are committed to representing working-class interests. Resistance to the cuts is vital, but we also need a political alternative to the policies of cuts and privatisation. TUSC believes that a new working-class party is needed that campaigns for a democratic socialist society run in the interests of the millions not the millionaires. TUSC first stood candidates in the 2010 General Election and is planning to stand candidates in next year’s local elections.

    You can find out more about TUSC at: http://www.tusc.org.uk/index.php

    * If you would like to subscribe to this bulletin then please e-mail TUSCbulletin@yahoo.co.uk Write ‘subscribe’ in the subject box.
    * Please forward this bulletin to others and encourage them to subscribe.

    TUSC Campaign for 2011 local elections

    Get ready for the 2011 local elections on May 5th 2011 – more than 30 million go to the polls.

    The local council elections in May 2011 will be the first opportunity voters will have to register public opposition at the ballot box to the Con-Dem government’s unparalleled attack on our public services. The elections are an opportunity to elect councillors who can actually stop many of the cuts from being implemented locally and to strengthen TUSC as a national political voice.

    We have to start planning now. The 2011 elections will give TUSC supporters the chance to campaign for a real left alternative for working-class people to vote for.

    Councils still have enormous powers and responsibilities, controlling multi-million pound budgets, spent on services from housing to schools, youth clubs, libraries, adult social care, sports centres, and refuse collection, to name but a few. What councillors do affects the quality of our daily lives.

    A draft programme for the local election campaign has been drawn up. The key points of the TUSC draft programme are:

    All TUSC councillors will:

    * Oppose all cuts to council jobs and services – we reject the claim that ‘some cuts’ are necessary to our services.
    * Reject above inflation increases in council tax, rent and service charges to compensate for government cuts.
    * Vote against the privatisation of council services, or the transfer of council services to ‘social enterprises’ or ‘arms-length’ management organisations, which are first steps to privatisation.

    The detail of what local elections are taking place in your area can be found here:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/elections/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/england/local-government-elections

    Interested in standing as a TUSC candidate in England or Wales? Then get in touch

    If you agree with the aims of TUSC and want to get involved in the local election campaigns in England or Wales, either as a candidate or to support others who might want to stand, then please get in touch with Clive Heemskirk: CliveHeemskerk@socialistparty.org.uk

    TUSC election campaign in Scotland:

    The RMT recently hosted a meeting of 90 people that agreed to launch a challenge in the 2011 Scottish parliament elections. For more details e-mail graememciver@btinternet.com or call 07738 615 562.

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  58. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    ChrisC – u make a silly point about me being “confused”. The Manchester Branch was 4th the deadline for amendments was 6th. The proposers of the amendment must have discussed it amongst themselves earlier, but chose not to take it to a branch meeting for support even though at least one of them had the opportunity to do so.

    That this has never been raised at the NC or discussed in a single branch indicates that this is the “great leader” style of policy generation that the SWP preferred for so long.

    You well know that there are members in Respect who would have longstanding positions of advocating voting for SSP or other parties in Scotland. What you are doing if you support the amendment at Conference is bouncing Respect in to expelling them if they stick to their position after a hastily convened amendment that has not been previously discussed by any section of the membership is rammed through a conference with no consultation or proper discussion.

    Think before you act. If you want to make a fundamental change in direction, build up to it, make sure people discuss, carry them with you.

    It was the one lesson that was not learnt by the SWP and it seems by some other people.

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  59. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    “Unite with(in) TUSC” – Is this a joke Dave?

    It’s another example of the “we’re planting our flag and it’s your job to rally around it” approach. Has it been discussed with any of the existing left forces in Scotland?

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  60. Mark P Avatar
    Mark P

    You mean like the rump SSP blustering you posted to start this discussion, Liam?

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  61. Mark Victorystooge Avatar
    Mark Victorystooge

    I have the impression GG takes something into his head and it is everyone else’s duty to rally around it, whether or not there has been prior discussion. Whether dressing up as a cat on CBB was ever the subject of advance discussion in the higher levels of Respect, I don’t know. I suspect not. Having lost his Westminster seat, Galloway is at a loose end. That is all this is about – as well as a less than sanguine view of Sheridan’s prospects of continuing a political career.
    GG’s domestic views are far less radical than his foreign policy views, and Holyrood deals with Scotland alone. If elected, I think he will, de facto, be a Labour MSP and may even end up taking the Labour whip.

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  62. dave hill Avatar
    dave hill

    Liam, and Alf and Killian and others

    We (TUSC) are not `planting our flag’ in Scotland… it was planted at the beginning of 2010 when TUSC was set up…we ran candidates in the May 2010 general election.

    What’s TUSC got that other left forces haven’t? official backing from various trade union leaderships AND regional and local branch organisations, i.e. some sections of the organised working class …. in addition to support from groups such as the SP, SWP and SR.

    Now I’d be very happy if all the socialist forces to the Left of Labour (in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) were to unite in / become part of/ be invited to join a TUSC that develops democratic decision making structures.

    But at the least what I’m looking for is the various Left political, AND trade union forces (and indeed, anti-cuts campaigns in cities and town and villages) actually meeting/ calling a meeting/ organising together.. to set up a single anti-cuts movement (in England, Scotland, Wales, NI)

    Killian and others ask, `On What Policy’?, transitional programme etc..

    I think we can agree on a basic socialist programme, very short, very simple, No Cuts that affect ordinary working people; a Wealth tax, Raise the Minium Wage, Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, Scrap Trident; Tax the Rich, Free education and Health services from the cradle to the grave.

    Of course there will be/are different approaches to socialism, speed, extent of collective control of the economy etc. But the above could be a minimum programme.

    TUSC’s council election programme is below, it is in development, but in any negotiations between different groups over policy, we won’t get very far if we all come to the table with immutable short and long-term policy demands.

    Here are TUSC’s council election (2011) policies to date…

    * Oppose all cuts to council jobs and services – we reject the claim that ‘some cuts’ are necessary to our services.
    * Reject above inflation increases in council tax, rent and service charges to compensate for government cuts.
    * Vote against the privatisation of council services, or the transfer of council services to ‘social enterprises’ or ‘arms-length’ management organisations, which are first steps to privatisation.

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  63. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    `I think we can agree on a basic socialist programme, very short, very simple, No Cuts that affect ordinary working people; a Wealth tax, Raise the Minium Wage, Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, Scrap Trident; Tax the Rich, Free education and Health services from the cradle to the grave.’

    A mix of timid reformism, demagoguery with a little bit of anti-imperialism to give it a radical gloss. TUSC is a neo-stalinist sect-fest. Join it and prepare to be driven from pillar to post by the competing sect bosses like some headless chicken.

    Galloway is not a revolutionary but he is radical and represents politically a major break with the imperialist labour and tu bureaucrats. Serious revolutionists in Scotland should get on the Galloway bandwagon with enthusiasm. Work with him with honest and enthusiasm to get a left of labour, principled anti-imperialist MP elected. There is no need to drop your own program (though most of the sects don’t have their own program anyway) or perspective (something else they don’t have) and this will give you a major opportunity to argue for it and present it to the Scottish public. The truth however is that the sects do not want to grow. They are happy operating their divide and rule from below policy and have absolutely no interest in the revolution they occasionally claim to want. The SSP if it had anything left in it of any worth would immediately welcome Respect and Galloway as an opportunity to transcend the paralysed sectarianism of the Scottish left and enter Respect in good faith and with radical intentions.

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  64. dave hill Avatar
    dave hill

    TUSC is not an English organisation, it is English, Scottish, Welsh. TUSC stood candidates at the 2010 UK general election in Scotland … 10 of the 41 TUSC general election candidates were in Scottish seats.

    Re the need for TUSC to become more democratic and bottom-up… we are in agreement. We are also in agreement that TUSC currently is not democratic or bottom up.

    I said

    Now I’d be very happy if all the socialist forces to the Left of Labour (in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) were to unite in / become part of/ be invited to join a TUSC that develops democratic decision making structures.

    But at the least what I’m looking for is the various Left political, AND trade union forces (and indeed, anti-cuts campaigns in cities and town and villages) actually meeting/ calling a meeting/ organising together.. to set up a single anti-cuts movement (in England, Scotland, Wales, NI)

    I don’t know on what basis George Galloway will stand in Glasgow… it could be as part of Solidarity.. in which case it might even be as part of TUSC! (Or, equally, it might be as a `Georgeous George for Glasgow… How About You!’)

    But I think it’s better for socialists and Marxists to get stuck in to work for unity on the socialist left, and get stuck in and democratise TUSC… which, currently at least, does bring under the same umbrella, a range of groups (including the SP, SWP, SR) ..and some of the leaderships of various unions, together with various regional and local branches of the unions.

    I happen to agree that Respect should not stand as Respect in Scotland. But TUSC is not Respect. TUSC is Scottish as much as English or Welsh. I’m not even demanding (??) that TUSC should be the organising focus (on a democratised and pluralistic basis) for left unity in Scotland and in England- though that is what I believe should happen (and might well be the case within months or a year or two).

    What I’m arguing for is that socialists and Marxists should be working for Left unity on a mimimum socialist programme. TUSC’s Scottish members must able to democratically determine the policies of TUSC, but the current TUSC broad policy seems pretty good to me!

    Working within TUSC that’s what I am/ will be working for. Scottish TUSC should get all the groups together so that we have one socialist anti-cuts list standing- instead of 4 or 5 competing socialists. Now whose interests does that serve- the left fractured and impotent once again? hmmmm….

    Dave

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  65. TLC Avatar
    TLC

    “TLC, that’s PRECISELY what the majority argued for; I was at the NC meeting where it was discussed.”

    Really Andy? Was this a written policy? Who argued for it? Can you tell me which NC and whose words are you quoting?

    If not then it might appear that you have simply made up a quote to help denigrate a position you disagree with – but it’s hardly fair on your political opponents is it nor does it help clarify the exact nature of the disagreement.

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  66. Diana Raby Avatar
    Diana Raby

    Let me start by confessing it, I’m English. I’ve also been a member of Respect since shortly after its foundation and an NC member for the past two years.

    For George to stand in Glasgow may well be a very good move. True, the Scottish people have the right to self-determination, but what we desperately need is an effective UK-wide left alternative. Respect is an important part of the struggle to build that alternative, and given the implosion of the SSP and George’s Scottish roots, I see no reason not to stand.

    For the record, I am also Chair of the Merseyside branch of Respect and was parliamentary candidate in Garston & Halewood last May. Merseyside is one of the new branches developing a Respect presence outside its established bases. Clydeside and Merseyside have a lot in common in terms of working-class traditions and militancy.

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  67. Andy Richards Avatar
    Andy Richards

    Hmmm….you’re either being extremely disingenuous or you are speaking from a position of complete ignorance. Not sure I really have the time to work out which.

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  68. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    Diana – welcome to the discusion. Some questions for you also to ponder.

    If Respect organising in Scotland is such a good idea, how come it hasn’t been discussed at the NC?

    You speak about the “implosion of the SSP”. The split in the SSP when Sheridan and the members of the SWP and what is now the SPS walked out to form Solidarity, took place in 2006, that’s hardly recent is it?

    The SSP suffered badly from the split in the subsequent Scottish Parliament elections when it lost all its seats. However it has begun the long hard path of recovery. It is the only left wing party to still hold a council seat (the sole Solidarity councillor joined the Labour Party despite Solidarity’s claim that they were the principled socialists).

    The SSP’s Frances Curran, a former MSP and Labour NEC member who is top of the list for Glasgow for the May 2011 election, significantly outpolled yourself and nearly half the other Respect candidates in the General Election only a few months ago (the SSP’s James Nesbitt in Glasgow Central also outpolled you and a number of other Respect candidates).

    Now, the left vote in the General Election, yourself included, was pretty poor with a few exceptions. But at least they were all trying to build something, Respect, you and the SSP included.

    How would you like it if the SSP had said that since Respect had “imploded” more recently than the SSP and your vote was so poor compared to theirs in the General Election, that they had decided it was necessary to set up a new socialist organisation in Merseyside, based on the SSP in Glasgow, to stand against Respect and you personally at the next election, because you were not suitable??

    What you are also implicitly saying is that if the movers of the amendment get their way on Saturday, anyone who opposes the hastily put idea of standing against the SSP and other socialists in Scotland should be expelled from Respect for supporting candidates of another party.

    Think about it.

    Some people in Respect have supported the SSP for considerably longer than Respect has been around. Listen to what they say and be prepared to compromise on this.

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  69. Chris C Avatar
    Chris C

    Prinkipo Exile – I have a lot of understanding of your position in relation to Scotland, have my disagreements with it (such as believing that the SSP has died as a political force in the past few years but especially in the past few weeks) but am happy to debate it on this basis. The debate is substantive and serious.

    The problem with your position as articulated here is that it is a mask and not a very sincere mask at that. To mask your argument behind highly dubious claims about lack of democratic debate is disingenuous and not what I have come to expect from SR.

    I have no idea what discussions took place around developing the amendment and am not terribly interested. What interests me is that it was submitted in accordance with the standing orders of Respect and is now up for discussion.

    To try to relate it to branch or NC discussion is idiotic for two reasons: 1. the conference has primacy compared to the NC; 2. there is an inadequate branch structure and no delegation for conference, which makes your argument meaningless.

    I am happy to argue a straight discussion about prospects in Scotland and whether Respect can or should fit into it but spare us all the martyr complex.

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  70. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    Hi Diana, there is no “sin” to confess in being English, and I think it’s a bit of a straw man to make out as if we’re saying there is. The point is however that the total wrongheadedness of this move couldn’t illustrate more graphically how English comrades have failed to grasp the different political dynamic going on in a different country (Scotland.)

    “For George to stand in Glasgow may well be a very good move.”

    Why?

    “True, the Scottish people have the right to self-determination, but what we desperately need is an effective UK-wide left alternative.”

    We disagree, and the fact that some comrades in Respect think they have the right to come and dictate terms of who shall be the leading representative of the left in Scottish politics frankly makes us feel more strongly about that.

    The left in Scotland is self organised, the reason being that Scotland is a different country with a different political context. The left should not take the imperialist British state as its natural model for organisation.

    Respect and the Socialist Alliance before it respected our right to self organisation and autonomy – now this seems to be being flung out the window for a half baked campaign with no political justification except that GG is a “personality” and that he will be anti-independence.

    “Respect is an important part of the struggle to build that alternative, and given the implosion of the SSP and George’s Scottish roots, I see no reason not to stand.”

    The SSP didn’t implode, it was split by a lying hypocritical politician determined to defend his image, with the active collaboration and encouragement of GG. When you look at some of Galloway’s contributions to Scottish politics over the past few years perhaps you will see why he’s incapable of acting as a unifying figure – he’s been one of the forces actively pulling the Scottish left apart!

    You (and others here) have yet to give any kind of a convincing reason TO stand!

    The best you can offer is “we need an alternative.” Can anyone please explain to me how parachuting a candidate into Glasgow with no activist base and no real declared politics apart from being against independence, solely on the basis of “we reckon he can get in”, will help build an alternative?

    No matter how you pitch it, this will be a divisive move, and a significant section, probably the majority, of the Scottish left will not support it. It’s going to take more than amateur psephology (btw, coming from the dodgy basis of you can compare Glasgow votes of GG when he was a Labour candidate with now) to convince me this is a good thing, and I still haven’t heard anyone make an argument other than the (false) claim that the party I belong to is dead and buried.

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  71. Jack Avatar
    Jack

    I’d also like to address some of the comments made about the SSP. I’m sorry if people down south are bored of hearing about our rows up here, but when I see ill informed comments about them I find it hard to let it lie.

    The SSP is of course weakened by the extremely damaging split. Our votes have reflected that at recent elections, as have the votes of Solidarity/No2EU/TUSC.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that you can’t declare us dead and make it so. There’s still a strong core of activists in the SSP who have been extremely active in the four years since the split, and who simply can’t be discounted if we’re going to discuss re-unifying the left. This includes important trade unionists, community campaigners, and a vibrant youth section which is unparalleled in any other force in Scottish politics.

    The SSP represented one of the most significant developments of the left since WW2 in the UK. It achieved unprecedented electoral success and became a major force in Scottish politics. It did so on the basis of a real democratic constitution and recognisably united identity, not some here today gone tomorrow throw up of sects, the kind which everyone can see has no long term roots in community struggle or consistent identity.

    This position was then blown apart because our most prominent figure felt that it was necessary to use the bourgeois courts to defend his public image as a “respectable” married man, conforming to the image of the bourgeois family. This then opened him up to a criminal investigation which would never have taken place if he had been wise enough not to.

    In the process all the classic weapons of misogyny were unleashed, and I personally witnessed some of the most unbelievable sexism I’ve had the misfortune to encounter. This is something that absolutely must be addressed before we can move forward.

    I don’t think people realise that we are severely constrained in what we can say about this during the ongoing trial because of contempt of court legislation. I have to be careful in what I say in respect of Liam’s blog so he doesn’t get into trouble as the publisher. Under those kind of circumstances, how can you have an open and honest discussion about the how we go forward?

    Meanwhile, what has GG done in all this? He has poured oil on the fire! He frequently used his Daily Record coloumn to attack the SSP and actively encourage the split.

    Re-unifying the Scottish left is going to be a difficult and painful process, but it cannot ignore the SSP as a major component of that left. GG standing will be a massive block in that path, because he is a divisive figure who will not find significant support in much of the existing Scottish left. It’s a really, really bad idea.

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  72. shug Avatar
    shug

    Love all this socialist shit about unity,yet the borders remain in the mind, not only politicly but geographically too.How cool it is to see the Marx/Engels divided by, my boat is bigger than yours.

    If it comes down to the demise of a credible socialist ideal in the mind of the Scottish people,who held seats in their Parliament,accepting a workers wage for the privlage,has to be be laid squarely at the door of Mr Tommy Sheridan,not only for his pin number state capitalist interpetation of socialism,but his alledged infadelity.

    And that is what got on the minds of the Scot socialist,if you stand for us you dont fuck around,with our lives or your pants.

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  73. alf Avatar
    alf

    and in the mean time what are the English Left doing about discussing how to challenge in a united way when the bye election comes up for Woolas’ s seat. Or have some conveniantly forgotten the threat on this side of the border and challenging the far right? Or has that been forgotten?

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  74. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    Alf, I think there will be some discussions about that locally but your point and this debate seems to me back to front.

    A struggle candidate against Woolas could be a good idea- in fact on this site I suggested it (following a suggestion from Campaign Against Immigration Controls). But if it is it will be a good idea to the extent that it back up, strengthens, and builds the wider movement against the cuts, against racism, imperialist war and the capitalist system.

    An overarching need now I’d suggest is to build for strikes and walkouts and further occupations for free education, against welfare cuts, against attacks on pensions. It is incredibly important to sign the statement against victimisation of the students http://teneleventen.wordpress.com/ get this through union branches, build for action (even if at first only symbolic like a lunch hour walkout) in solidarity with the national walkout on 24th November
    http://anticuts.com/2010/11/12/press-release-24th-november-walkout-and-day-of-action/
    and build local anti cuts committtees comprising delegates form unions, student unions, teneants’ groups, welfare rights groups to build for more mass militant demos, occupations and direct action.

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  75. Liam Avatar
    Liam

    Chris – I genuinely have no idea who Prinkipo Exile is. She or he may or may not have a martyr complex but is not commenting on behalf of SR.

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  76. David Ellis Avatar
    David Ellis

    `What I’m arguing for is that socialists and Marxists should be working for Left unity on a mimimum socialist programme.’

    This is why TUSC is an opportunist lash up. Resepct on the other hand is an agreement between revolutionists and left reformists to achieve the election of anti-imperialist representatives. The wider program is always up for grabs. Left unity will be built on practical agreements not by mixing, adapting, watering down or betraying your program.

    As for Oldham a Respect candidate should stand if Labour fails to put up an anti-imperialist, anti-cuts, socialist candidate.

    `Re-unifying the Scottish left is going to be a difficult and painful process, but it cannot ignore the SSP as a major component of that left. GG standing will be a massive block in that path, because he is a divisive figure who will not find significant support in much of the existing Scottish left. It’s a really, really bad idea.’

    GG standing will be a massive block if you turn it into one. The SSP could rejuvinate itself and regroup if it entered Respect and worked with enthusiasm for Galloway’s election. Otherwise carry on with the self pity. You got shafted by Sheridan, the SWP, whoever, big deal, learn the lessons and move on and find away forward. I would say getting behind Galloway if he stands is an opportunity for the SSP not a curse.

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  77. Prinkipo Exile Avatar
    Prinkipo Exile

    ChrisC – of course you are right that formally the Respect conference has the right to take whatever position it likes. Doubtless it will. Though it should do so on the basis of evidence rather than conjecture – as I pointed out to Diana Frances Curran standing for the SSP in Glasgow East did rather better than her in the general election only six months ago.

    We can have that debate but the consequence of Respect deciding to organise in Scotland is far-reaching.

    It means, for example, that Respect is deciding that anyone who supports the SSP (or any other organisation) in Scottish elections has no place in the membership of Respect, due to the simple fact that you cannot be a member of a party and advocate voting for candidates standing against that party.

    It’s not martyrdom to point that out.

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  78. shug Avatar
    shug

    David,socialist and Marxist.What the fuck is that about.Is not Marx and Engel,the bus stop, outside egotistical control and bright lights.

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  79. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    David “As for Oldham a Respect candidate should stand if Labour fails to put up an anti-imperialist, anti-cuts, socialist candidate”

    Again this gets the logic back to front. The point of standing in elections should be about building the wider movement. If the community activistis and trade unionists in Oldham meet to build the wider campaign and if the LP as likely puts forward a candidate who doesn’t completely repudiate the previous government’s shameful stoking of racism and decides standing a cnadidate is a good idea then that is the right way round.

    Respect may put forward a candidate and amy win through these mass meetings and if they do and are accountable to the movement I think that would be good. Biut to decide in advance a struggle cnadidate must be a Respect one is part of the problem not part of the solution

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  80. SOCIALIST UNITY » GALLOWAY STANDING IN SCOTLAND WOULD HELP LABOUR

    […] detailknows that the party is over for both the SSP and Solidarity. Raphie de Santos is delusional when he writes: The SSP has slowly rebuilt itself, rising from the ashes of the split, to play a leading role in […]

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  81. Lynsey Avatar
    Lynsey

    Yeah, I joined the SSP because I’m a socialist and a feminist, so no ta, I’m not going to be good and support a pumped up waste of space who wouldn’t take a worker’s wage and who is anti abortion.

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  82. raphie Avatar
    raphie

    The left in Scotland do not welcome GG coming. Those who are associated with him will be rightly dismissed as dupes with no individual judgemnet. Just like the former comrades who tried to bankrupt the SSP literally under Tommy’s orders, I and many of us will never work with Galloways’s accolites again. They are not of soiund mind or judgemnet and like the people outside the CWI and SWP who surrounded Tommy post the split they will disapear into the ether.

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